Testing and Common Core in Public Schools

[Jules13]

I am wondering, for those of you with kids in public schools, how much you know about Common Core and all of the testing that is going on with your kids?

3rd graders in my son's school have been given over 10 standardized tests so far this year and that doesn't even count the mandatory common core assessments that are given every 2-3 weeks to make sure everyone is on track with the standards.  AND that doesn't count all the prep and practice tests either. 

Have you noticed how they are teaching math, if you can call it that, now? 

I just wanted to post in a different forum than an education one to see how many are aware of this.  Education and what is going on in public schools today is another of my passions, outside of personal finance. 

Are any of you as disturbed as I am?  Are you doing anything about it?  I have opted my 2nd grader out of the one test (Discovery Education Assessment) that they are giving this semester, as well as the TRIPOD survey that will be administered next week. 

I am also wondering....if this does not bother you...WHY?  I am truly interested.  I honestly don't understand why more parents are not up in arms about this.  Unless, they just don't know?  Please enlighten me!  Thanks.

[matchewed]

A portion of a separate discussion involved Common Core some time ago here - https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/dangers-of-the-age-of-ignorance/msg189332/#msg189332

My take on it is that just because it is not the way you were taught doesn't mean it is bad.

Why is testing bad? Aren't tests which are practical applications of the lessons being taught one of the best ways to learn said lessons, by applying them?

Mathematics are a concept, and can be taught in a variety of ways. See Vi Hart on youtube for example - http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart?feature=watch (see her doodling in math class videos). I'm not saying Common Core is for everyone but neither was the old way of teaching math. So why is it a new problem?

Maybe you can demonstrate what you find disturbing.

[Jules13]

I am not against testing, per se.  I understand there is an accountability issue.  However, I am against the excessive amount of testing that goes on in our public schools today (private schools are not subjected to the same testing requirements). 

There are currently, in 3rd grade, 4 state mandated tests.  2 of them take 4 hours each.  The other two take 2 hours each.  There are 8 mandated reading tests (of which teachers have to test one kid at a time).  And other mandated tests given every 2-3 weeks.  This doesn't even count the practice tests that they have to give.

There is no time left to actually teach.  Creativity has gone out the window.  No time.  Elementary kids get 20 minutes of recess per day and only 1-2 days of PE.  No time for any more...too busy testing.  Library time gets cut because a lot of testing happens in the library.  No books for you today! 

8 and 9 years will, starting next year, have to take tests, that last over 4 hours a pop, on computers.  60% of the test will require typing.  There is no way that most of the kids will be able to type quickly enough, while also navigating computer skills, toggling between two screens and cut/pasting.  My district (which is in Nashville) has over 70% of our students on the free and reduced lunch program, meaning they are in poverty and probably don't have a computer at home.  They are at a severe disadvantage.  As well as, it's a state mandate that in UNfunded.  They are requiring districts to come up with the money for the required technology.  Most schools just don't have the money. Again...students are at a disadvantage.

This does not even go into the teaching to the test that goes on.  Science and Social Studies have gone out the window because they are not the focus on the tests. 

And the math...oh Lord.  If you have not seen how math is taught.  I am not against it because it's a new way of teaching.  I'm against it because it's a stupid way of teaching.  Nobody needs to know 8 ways to solve a 2 or 3-digit addition problem.  Yes, that is how many "strategies" my son has been taught this year.  And then, he has to write 3 sentences of how he solved the problem.  A problem that he can do in his head.  Talk about frustrating. 

And starting in elementary, 50% of reading has to be non-fiction.  That goes up to 70% in high school.  Sorry for all of those who wanted to learn about Shakespeare or delve deeply into any good fiction.  No time for that!

Again, I am okay with testing, for the purpose of testing what has been learned.  But, how about ONE test?  One test that covers the areas that are required for that year.  Even two tests, one at the end of each semester I could live with.  Catch those kids at the end of the first semester who need extra help.  But, the way it is now, is too much.  The testing is getting worse and is taking over.  There is barely any time to help the kids who need help.  And those gifted kids who score high....well, we don't need to worry about them.  They can just sit over in the corner and read, like usual.  Ugh. 

[Christiana]

As a homeschooler, I am aware of some of the issues with Common Core...the most significant of which is the further intrusion of the federal government into educational standards and assessments.  Historically, education in the U.S. has been locally controlled and locally accountable.

Ironically, the real trend in education is toward much more individualized instruction (via homeschooling, unschooling, and online courses). 

[Jules13]

Plus, the money making motive behind it all and the underhanded way that schools adopted Common Core makes me sick.  Do some research as it's pretty easy to find.  It's not at all about educating our kids.  It's about making money.  Our kids are actually becoming worse off and learning less and less and great teachers are leaving in droves. 

[arebelspy]

As a teacher, I love the Common Core standards.  They're great.

I hate the testing.

There's far, far too much of it.  It wastes literally two months of school time, added up over the year.

[Jules13]

Arebelspy, I would be very interested to hear what you teach and what grade and what you love about the standards.  As a parent, I admit, I hate math the most, but seeing fiction and science all but abandoned also makes me very sad.  Are you a parent also?  I am very interested in your opinion.  I admit, I see value in a set of standards that are far reaching for teachers and people who move across states, etc.  But, I don't think these are the ones. 

[arebelspy]

Arebelspy, I would be very interested to hear what you teach and what grade and what you love about the standards.  As a parent, I admit, I hate math the most, but seeing fiction and science all but abandoned also makes me very sad.  Are you a parent also?  I am very interested in your opinion.  I admit, I see value in a set of standards that are far reaching for teachers and people who move across states, etc.  But, I don't think these are the ones.

I teach 5th grade, science and social studies this year.  Last year I taught a 4/5 combo class, all subjects.  My wife teaches High School English.

Most teachers I know share my opinion - we test too much, but the new standards are really good.   They're rigorous and much more comprehensive than most of the patchwork stuff that came before it.

Nevada is adopting new science standards as of next year (which to me seem to be way too broad - no way to teach even half the stuff they have in there).

I don't know what you dislike about the math standards - they're a list of what the students ought to know.  How is it taught (i.e. the curriculum) is different than the standards.  It seems you may be confusing those, and thinking that the Common Core and Curriculum is the same - they're not.

However they choose to teach math seems to be what you have an issue with, but I may be misinterpreting that due to lack of information.

As far as fiction, there's plenty of that, but I like how the Common Core emphasizes non-fiction as well.  Informational texts are prominent in the Common Core, yes, but being able to read and interpret non-fiction is huge.  That's what the majority of adults read nowadays (in their jobs, when reading the news, etc.).. being proficient at understanding it is important.

Fiction is there, don't think that just because non-fiction standards were added that it was at the expense of fiction.  Again, it goes back to how the person teaching it teaches.  The Common Core is just the standards that the student ought to know.

[Jules13]

I understand that this is an ongoing argument about the standards not being a curriculum or whether the standards are dictating the curriculum, etc.

What I see is my son's recall of basic math facts now being worse than it was in the beginning of first grade because of a focus on base ten strategies and writing the explanation of how he got his answer.  I understand the need for being able to verbalize how you came up with your answer, but not in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade.  It's developmentally inappropriate.  Kids just do not think that critically at that young age.  They are much more black and white, like math SHOULD be.

What I also see is the math homework that comes home designed to look exactly like it will look on the PARCC test.  We have been told that it's practice for the test they will have to take next year.  They are teaching to the test. 

My son told me the other day that "I don't even have to get the answer exactly right. I will get more points if I just know how to explain how I got my answer".  This is true of the PARCC test.  You can get more points for explanation than for actually getting the right answer.

Of all of you who base their knowledge/livelihoods and ability to retire early on MATH, I don't understand how this is not alarming to you.  Our kids are no longer learning real math.  It's fuzzy math where 3x4=11 as long as we can bullshit the explanation. 

Read James Milgram's take on it.  He is a mathematician at Stanford and refused to sign off on the math common core standards.  http://dianeravitch.net/2013/09/11/james-milgram-on-the-common-core-math-standards/

As for the non-fiction/fiction debate.  I do feel that BECAUSE most people actually read more non-fiction on a routine basis is precisely the reason why we should read more fiction in school.  It expands our knowledge and thinking and vocabulary in a way that non-fiction just can't.  I say leave the non-fiction reading in Social Studies and Science classes, but English class should be left alone.
 

[matchewed]

I understand that this is an ongoing argument about the standards not being a curriculum or whether the standards are dictating the curriculum, etc.

What I see is my son's recall of basic math facts now being worse than it was in the beginning of first grade because of a focus on base ten strategies and writing the explanation of how he got his answer.  I understand the need for being able to verbalize how you came up with your answer, but not in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade.  It's developmentally inappropriate.  Kids just do not think that critically at that young age.  They are much more black and white, like math SHOULD be.

What I also see is the math homework that comes home designed to look exactly like it will look on the PARCC test.  We have been told that it's practice for the test they will have to take next year.  They are teaching to the test. 

My son told me the other day that "I don't even have to get the answer exactly right. I will get more points if I just know how to explain how I got my answer".  This is true of the PARCC test.  You can get more points for explanation than for actually getting the right answer.

Of all of you who base their knowledge/livelihoods and ability to retire early on MATH, I don't understand how this is not alarming to you.  Our kids are no longer learning real math.  It's fuzzy math where 3x4=11 as long as we can bullshit the explanation. 

Read James Milgram's take on it.  He is a mathematician at Stanford and refused to sign off on the math common core standards.  http://dianeravitch.net/2013/09/11/james-milgram-on-the-common-core-math-standards/

As for the non-fiction/fiction debate.  I do feel that BECAUSE most people actually read more non-fiction on a routine basis is precisely the reason why we should read more fiction in school.  It expands our knowledge and thinking and vocabulary in a way that non-fiction just can't.  I say leave the non-fiction reading in Social Studies and Science classes, but English class should be left alone.

How do you know it is developmentally inappropriate? With computers around facts are easy to find. I don't need to memorize multiplication tables they're everywhere we look. This seems to be frustration at something that you may not be familiar with and a method you don't approve of rather than having a cohesive reason as to why it is bad. Why should math be black and white facts? Why can't it be the concepts behind it, visualizations of how it is structured, and methods?

Ummm because learning the techniques and structure behind solving the problem is more important than just getting the right answer? In a day and age where there are computer programs to give you the right answer all day long knowing the nuts and bolts behind how the answer is derived is extremely important.

Reading fiction does not necessarily lend itself to being able to digest non-fiction. Why can't non-fiction expand our vocabulary the same way fiction does, does it not use words? English is not just the study of fiction but the study of the language. That includes poetry, prose, as well as cohesive arguments and the ability to read/ write studies, papers, and technical magazines. Why should we exclude one side over the other?

[avonlea]

Jules13,

I understand your concerns.  When our children were enrolled in regular public school, we also felt that there was too much testing. At my daughter's current school, the students have to take two standardized tests per year on average. I think both of the tests are given in sessions of a few hours each day over the course of a week.  When she hits third grade, I will know more about that process I am sure.  So far, we feel okay about her having that amount of testing in the future. 

We, like you, were also concerned that, in her previous school, too much time was being spent teaching to tests or evaluating students and not enough time was spent on creative development.  In kindergarten, my daughter was not allowed much time to write creatively.  She was told to trace letters in pre-made books.  Her current school tries to create good writers from a young age, not just good spellers.  Lots of hands-on activities there, too.  I know we are fortunate to have this option for her.

The curriculum you are describing sounds a lot like what my daughter's school uses for math.  She loves it and does well with it.  I don't know that it is best for every child, though.  Our son (homeschooled) uses a different type of curriculum.  Both children do well with math and meet all of the math standards each year, but they tend to learn in different ways.

[arebelspy]

Math facts mastery is the key most important thing for a young student to be able to excel in math.

I do support the idea of students being able to explain why they got an answer.  Too many people today, and students of the past 20 years, can't independently think, but can only follow a formula. Then if there's a slight deviation, they're lost.

Students why understand why and how a problem works can think and adapt.  It's a good thing  to require.

That being said, again, you are confusing how your school poorly teaches with the standards.  That is not a problem with the Common Core.

No, my students don't get to turn in the wrong answer with a bullshit explanation. Yes, they'd better know their math facts.

You are blaming the wrong thing.  Poor, or good, teaching has nothing to do with the standards in place.

[avonlea]

Kind of want to make a clarification: I don't think all mainstream public schools are sub-par or don't meet the needs of their students.  I might have given that impression.  I didn't think the one our kids attended was a good fit for them; other parents I know think it has served their kids well.  And I'm sure there are other public schools that have more flexibility and resources.

[Hamster]

I couldn't be more delighted with the quality of my daughter's public school curriculum (under Common Core Standards), with the exception that there isn't enough drilling of match facts.

So far, with elementary kids, my understanding is that our kids take standardized tests (MAP or MSP?) twice a year starting in 3rd grade for reading/language and math, maybe more in higher grades. Our school clearly doesn't teach to the test. The school follows an International Baccalaureate primary years program curriculum, and the children learn WAY more critical thinking, self-guided learning, problem solving, etc than I ever learned growing up. Third graders are expected to research topics of interest, put together Power Point presentations using various outlines, and present this to their classmates. They naturally form groups and work together to do small projects. I am frankly blown away by how much better their public school experience is than when I went to (a very good) public school growing up.

Math is definitely light on drills/memorization. I had serious misgivings about the math curriculum since it is so light on facts. Early elementary math focuses on splitting and reassembling numbers, then using 2-3 different strategies to solve all problems. I expressed my concern to my daughter's first grade teacher - "Why don't you drill more? I loved doing time trial races when I was a kid." Her response was "For kids who are already good at math, that reinforces their sense of mastery. For kids who are slower, it teaches them that they are bad at math and they learn to hate it."

I did some reading on Singapore math (the program from the country that basically kicks everyobody's ass in math education), and bought a few of the singapore math books/workbooks to use with my kids as supplementary learning. To my surprise, the techniques were similar to many strategies they were using in school. Once I understood the principles, I think it is actually a very valuable tool in helping kids truly internalize how numbers work, and my older daughter has gained a very intuitive grasp of not just the math facts, but how to figure out novel problems.

We have done our own work teaching math facts by doing our own drilling at home using timed worksheets with small rewards for meeting gradually tougher goals. We're not terribly consistent, but do it often enough that the kids' math facts are now well above grade level.

TL;DR: Public schools can still do fantastic teaching under Common Core Standards. Learning and curriculum has much more to do with the particular school and parental involvement than with the standards in my experience. If they aren't teaching math in a way that you like, supplement that teaching after school.

[momo5]

I dont have a problem with the standards. I have a big problem with the way my state (NY) has (mis)handled the whole thing.
teachers did not receive the training they needed to properly implement the new curriculum, the new text books SUCK, and the kids are being tested on common core standards prior to receiving instruction in that format. I dont have a problem with infrequent testing but I DO have a problem testing kids on stuff they havent been prepared for. its a waste of instruction time and it is really demoralizing for the kids.
two of mine are homeschooled and one is still in preschool so they havent been affected. My high schooler is a bit nervous about the new Regents exams (even the teachers are voicing their anxieties, they openly tell the parents that they do not know how to prepare the kids) and my first grader is wondering why math is 'so much talking when it just makes sense in numbers'? I get the whole 'explain why' thing, but for the kids who can intuit math, I say let the 'explain why' come later and naturally as it usually does for those kids. instead, we're taking the kids who really 'get numbers' and making them feel lost in math just because their language skills havent caught up with their number sense yet. its a bit of missing the forest for the trees, imo.

[greaper007]

I'm one of those wierdos that loved standardized test week.  I almost always had an 80-95 percentile score on standardized tests but had less than a 2.0 gpa.    I would have been happy to have been given a book and a standardized test a month later, maybe I would have gotten into a better college.

Still, I have mixed emotions about excess testing.   On one level, it does take some of the creativity out of teaching and doesn't reward skills outside of a very narrowly defined parameter.   On the other hand, I feel that most of the tests I took throughout my school career were fairly simple and grade level appropriate.   Even the SAT only tests through, I believe, 9th grade.    If wide swaths of students aren't able to pass there's something wrong with the school, or the students' intelligence or home life.

[Noodle]

Based on what I hear (I don't work directly in K-12 education, but adjacent), the problem is not so much the standards as the fact that a) those implementing them hugely underestimated how much time it was going to take for everyone--curriculum writers, teachers, etc. to relearn how to teach in a radically new way and b) there is WAY too much testing in general going on at the expense of classroom instruction. I live in Texas which is not yet a Common Core state, and normally I hate the knee-jerk reaction to national government initiatives, but I think  in case it may be to our advantage to be late adopters. By the time Texas changes over, there will be a lot more models and experience to look to for implementation.

 I suspect a) happened because the administration was trying to get it implemented before the next election to the point where it was too difficult to dismantle when the administration changed.  I don't think that b) is going to change until parents engage in massive test refusal.

And honestly, I think it's a miracle that the schools do as well as they do. The radical changes in knowledge and learning that the Internet has brought about are less than twenty years old (I just looked it up and Wikipedia, for instance, was only founded in 2001). I suspect over time we will understand more about what we need to internalize in various subjects to understand, and what we can "outsource" to readily available information sources.

[oldtoyota]

I am not against testing, per se.  I understand there is an accountability issue.  However, I am against the excessive amount of testing that goes on in our public schools today (private schools are not subjected to the same testing requirements). 

What do the tests measure? What are they supposed to measure?

I know many parents paying for additional tutoring. When their kids take the tests, the tests are given to determine if the school is successful, right? If that is the case, then the tests are nullified because some test takers are getting tutored.

So, I ask again, what are these tests measuring?

[randymarsh]

Has the increase in testing occurred mostly over just the past few years or more so in certain states? I'm only 22 and I remember I think yearly (or maybe every other year?) proficiency exams. These were a week long. Each subject was one day: Writing, Reading, Science, Math, Social Studies.

In high school, the only standardized testing I remember was the Ohio Graduation Test which was also one week in the spring of sophomore year. Once you passed all sections, you were done with testing unless you took the ACT/SAT.

[grantmeaname]

Real tests in half the years, practice tests the other half of the years. Practice OGT in 9th, real OGT in 10th. PSAT/NMSQT. PLAN. SAT. ACT. AP. AP. AP.

Good thing I'm good at fill-in-the-bubble I guess?

[Hamster]

Real tests in half the years, practice tests the other half of the years. Practice OGT in 9th, real OGT in 10th...

I didn't know public schools were offering the Original Gangsta Test (R)

[grantmeaname]

Where do you think OGs come from? Private schools? Psssh.

[Rural]

The standards are good. Some of the teachers are good, too, and some don't understand the standards  themselves. The testing takes one day per year per course, and not every course is tested. Tempest in a teapot (pun not intended, but I did see it as soon as I typed it).


Some states seem to test more, and maybe too mucho but that's an implementation problem, not a problem with the standards. If it's too much, they should quit.

[Jules13]

The testing takes one day per year per course

Where do you get this?  Is this at a school you teach at or your kids go to?  My son is in elementary school in 2nd grade and he's had more testing (and don't forget the test prep that goes on all year long) than 1 day per subject.  Next year...3rd grade...is when the real madness starts.  Starting in 3rd grade, in my kid's district, they lose more than 20 days for actual testing.  And, again, that doesn't count test prep.  Right now, they are practicing and preparing for the state mandated test that is the week after next.  They have been practicing and preparing for the last 2 weeks and will continue next week.  Testing will take more than a week.  And then the poor kids who have to take the PARCC field test on TOP of the state mandated test.  Well, I really feel sorry for those kids.

What do the tests measure? What are they supposed to measure?

Good question.  In theory, it's supposed to measure what kids are learning and if the teacher is doing their job.  But, like you said, kids are prepped....all. the. time.  Teachers are teaching to these tests because their evaluations and jobs are tied to the test scores (at least they are in my state).  So, basically, the tests are measuring a kid's knowledge and memory skills on a particular day.  Despite his/her nerves, what may or may not be happening at home, despite how burnt out they are from all the test prep or if they couldn't sleep the night before or their parent wasn't able to prepare them a decent breakfast.  It's a snapshot in time that doesn't really tell a whole hell of a lot.

Has the increase in testing occurred mostly over just the past few years or more so in certain states?

Since you are only 22, the testing might not have increased too much since when you were in school, since it mostly changed with No Child Left Behind.  Before NCLB, we were testing MAYBE once per year.  I don't even remember getting tested every year.  I graduated high school in 1991.  And we were NEVER prepped.  If it was a testing day, we weren't even told about it.  You just arrived at school and it was a testing day.  And it was max, 2 days. 

This year, the 3rd and 4th graders (and up) in my district had DEA (3x per year), CRA (2x), TCAP Writing Assessment and next is the TCAP (that is over a week long).  For 3rd and 4th graders!  That doesn't count the reading tests (to measure reading levels) and other weekly assessments that are required by Common Core.  High school has it worse as they also have End of Course Exams after TCAPs. 

It's insane.  Fortunately, a bill has just been introduced that could stop all this testing madness.  I surely hope so.  http://thejournal.com/articles/2014/03/11/reforming-reform-bill-aims-to-curb-high-stakes-testing-mandates.aspx

[chicagomeg]

Real tests in half the years, practice tests the other half of the years. Practice OGT in 9th, real OGT in 10th. PSAT/NMSQT. PLAN. SAT. ACT. AP. AP. AP.

Good thing I'm good at fill-in-the-bubble I guess?

The name and the content of these test changed when I was in school (graduated in 2007), but my sister had the same schedule & graduated in 1998. Maybe Ohio is just ahead of the curve on testing? But I think the part that's a big change from when we were in school, from my reading at least, is all of the one on one evaluation that teachers are being required to do. It's extremely time intensive.

[Hamster]

The testing takes one day per year per course

Where do you get this?  Is this at a school you teach at or your kids go to?  My son is in elementary school in 2nd grade and he's had more testing (and don't forget the test prep that goes on all year long) than 1 day per subject.  Next year...3rd grade...is when the real madness starts.  Starting in 3rd grade, in my kid's district, they lose more than 20 days for actual testing.

I think the problem is with your district or maybe your state. 20 days is obviously ridiculous. A bit unbelievable frankly.

My 3rd grader does MSP 2 times a year, and she said the only prep is about 8 online practice questions for math and for reading. A couple of hours for each test. At a public school, which subscribes to the common core. I think the school is still considered 'in transition' to full implementation next school year, but I don't think the testing increases next year except that in 4th grade they add the science test.

When I was in grade school we did the ITBS. A couple of days testin each year, so in her case there is less testing at this point. So, I'm not seeing it. This is only based on my experience, but it sounds like the problem in your case isn't common core itself, but implementation and testing where you live.

[arebelspy]

The testing takes one day per year per course

Where do you get this?  Is this at a school you teach at or your kids go to?  My son is in elementary school in 2nd grade and he's had more testing (and don't forget the test prep that goes on all year long) than 1 day per subject.  Next year...3rd grade...is when the real madness starts.  Starting in 3rd grade, in my kid's district, they lose more than 20 days for actual testing.

I think the problem is with your district or maybe your state. 20 days is obviously ridiculous. A bit unbelievable frankly.

Speaking as a teacher who has to administer them: believe it.

We have over 20 days of state testing here in NV. 

[Rural]

The testing takes one day per year per course

Where do you get this?  Is this at a school you teach at or your kids go to?

The school where my husband teaches. Sounds like your state's implementation (and ARS's) is a problem.

[Jules13]

I'm in Tennessee.  Our Education Commissioner and current governor are both complete assholes.  Our Ed Commissioner is Kevin Huffman, who used to be married to Michelle Rhee.  He's still on staff or the board with TFA (Teach for America), which I will never understand how this is not a conflict of interest.  TFA "teachers" get first priority in our state, which is asinine.  Most parents don't have a clue about this....that their kids teacher got about 6 weeks of training the summer before school started.  Huffman is also on the governing board with PARCC (again, how is this not a conflict of interest?), so of course is really pushing it.  Though, it's been delayed for a year now for us, as of last week.

What are ARS's?

[Rural]

What are ARS's?

ARebelSpy's. His state (Nevada) does a lot of testing, too

[Jules13]

Oh okay.  I know Illinois (Chicago) and NYC have also been in the news a lot lately regarding testing.  What state are you in? 

[galliver]

I am not familiar enough with the standards and/or child development and K-12 teaching to have a strong opinion on this particular set of standards.

However, nationally-accepted standards are *necessary* in today's world. 50-100 years ago, people settled down in one town and raised a family and their kids went to work for the same factories, plants, etc that the parents worked for. The local economy drove the education needs. There was much less migration than there is today. Today people move all the time. I moved twice during my school career; my youngest sister, 3 times. Each move required adjusting to the new school curriculum. I ended up never taking American Lit because it was an 11th grade class at my old HS and a 10th grade class at my new HS. I wasted a year in precalc because the course sequence at my new school was basically a year behind my old one. More importantly than this ability to transition is that a high school diploma from one region of the country should mean the same as from another. Colleges shouldn't have to wonder what was taught in a given core class (math, english, science, history). There should be a minimum expected standard.

I do agree that the extent of testing those elementary school students is unfortunate. We really need to acknowledge that teaching is in part a creative undertaking and not quantifiable and controllable. Teacher ratings/reviews should combine 1-2 standardized tests per year with observation, parent feedback, and starting in MS, student feedback (obviously not weighted as much, but considered).

[Jules13]

but if I still lived in TN, there is no way I could support the testing craze you have going on. I have a friend that opts out of testing for her kids.

Agreed, it's ridiculous.  I have been refusing tests (we have no formal opt out policy though I think they are creating one) and will continue to do so.  There is a growing movement and I'm a part of it.  The lack of transparency is a big issue.  Most parents have no clue how often their kids are being tested or that they can refuse a test.  That will change, starting next school year as a new Parent Notification of Testing bill was just passed that will require parents to be notified of all tests - each test’s date, purpose, use, and method of informing parents and teachers of the results. 

I do think that once more parents realize how much testing goes on, they will start to pay more attention to opting out/refusing tests, etc. 

Private school is not on my radar, simply because I'd rather homeschool and travel than spend money on private school (and because all of the affordable ones in TN are religious based), but the fact that they don't have all this testing (or common core for that matter) and do perfectly fine is a bit telling.  All of these legislative members who talk up common core and accountability testing for public schools, but then have their own children or grandchildren in private, make me sick. 

@galliver, as for nationally accepted standards being necessary, I can definitely see that point.  However, the way these standards were created (not by states as they will have you to believe) and how states were pretty much bribed into accepting them, sight unseen as they hadn't even been written yet, in order to get federal Race to the Top dollars was extremely underhanded.  And, why would it need to be done that way?  It's a pretty sordid story in my opinion and all revolving around money...not education.

[msilenus]

I was first exposed to the Common Core way of teaching arithmetic via an outraged post on Facebook.  As a mathematician by training, I was elated by the example I saw that was supposed to be rousing my ire.

The long-hand techniques being taught lay bare exactly what is going on under the covers, and work in ways that are reminiscent of proofs.  By learning a few different rigorous ways of getting to the same answer, they should get a much better idea of what math is.  It's a little harder, but teaches more transferrable thinking skills, and lays a stronger foundation.

When you write addition like his:
  769
+456

And crank it out in the traditional way, you can get the answer very fast, but you've obscured what you're doing with the numbers.  Common core gets around that by having you decompose it:

700 + 60 + 9 + 400 + 50 + 6

And go forward from there, recombining the numbers in the way they'll have to work with polynomials when they're in high school (or working with series in calculus, or proofs in number theory, or ...)
700 + 60 + 40 + 50 + 15
700 + 60 + 40 + 50 + 10 + 5
700 + 60 + 40 + 60
...

Learn that first, then learn the shorthand way, and you'll know what you're doing when you're carrying.  Or maybe don't learn the shorthand way.  If all you care about is getting the answer, it's fine to use a calculator.  All the tricks you're embedding in the traditional notational way of doing multidigit addition just make getting the answer faster, so why not just skip straight to the best way of doing that?

Answer that question, and you find yourself staring at something like Common Core.  Learning arithemetic in a way that exposes what math is.

That's my take, anyway.  These guys also have a good one:

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/20/5625086/the-common-core-makes-simple-math-more-complicated-heres-why

[Jules13]

If that was the only extra way of learning addition, I might not have a problem with it either, (though I would have become very frustrated with having to decompose like that). However, my son, in 2nd grade, learned EIGHT "strategies" of how to add.  Talk about confusing!  He worked on addition for the entire first semester, subtraction for not even 2 months (which he struggled with but now they've moved on), then did something else that they only did for one week that made no sense and nobody understood it anyway, now they are doing geometry and fractions.  I emailed some of the homework to a friend of mine who is a high school math teacher and he ranted.  He said one the strategies was a dyslexic way of doing math. 

Also, when they solve a problem, they have to not just solve it and give the answer, but 1) Choose a strategy 2) Write a number sentence and 3) explain in 3 steps (first, then, last) how they solved the problem.  This is very frustrating when it's something you can do in your head.  You just have make up crap. 

But, this is how the questions are asked on PARCC, so this is how they are learning.  Plus, his teacher told the class that they didn't need to worry about getting the answer right, they would get more points on the test if they did the explanation correctly.  Which is true....but total bullshit.  And teaching our kids how to bullshit their way through an answer.  Math is black and white folks...it's either right or it's not. 

I would say that maybe it's just the way my son's school is doing it, but that's not true.  I am on numerous forums and many parents and teachers from other states complain about the same things. 

[grantmeaname]

But, this is how the questions are asked on PARCC, so this is how they are learning.  Plus, his teacher told the class that they didn't need to worry about getting the answer right, they would get more points on the test if they did the explanation correctly.  Which is true....but total bullshit.  And teaching our kids how to bullshit their way through an answer.  Math is black and white folks...it's either right or it's not.

Math is not a collection of facts. Math is a way to think. Notice how the mathematician who posted directly before you says he thinks that the common core strategy is something more valuable than what it replaced?

[msilenus]

Note that I was careful to say "mathematician by training."  When I'm not qualifying, I call myself a software engineer.

Jules, if you read the Vox link, you'll see that part of the justification is that it teaches kids that Math isn't a set of brittle formulas.  When you look at the same thing in lots of different ways, and see the same thing falling out, it conveys the notion that there's something deeper going on than a magic muscle-memory recipe for getting the answer.  Confusing?  God forbid.  The question is how well the coursework prepares them for what's in store after they've worked past it.

Speaking as the dad of an incoming public school kindergartener, I'm really excited about helping him work this stuff out.

[galliver]

Also, when they solve a problem, they have to not just solve it and give the answer, but 1) Choose a strategy 2) Write a number sentence and 3) explain in 3 steps (first, then, last) how they solved the problem.  This is very frustrating when it's something you can do in your head.  You just have make up crap. 

We had to do this in elementary school for word problems, too. Explain the obvious. I thought it was crap. It wasn't.

Explaining "the obvious" makes you challenge your assumptions about what exactly is "obvious" and explain  yourself clearly and logically. This is a very important STEM skill.

Edit: And I meant to add that, by the by, 3x4 =11 in a base 11 system. ;) So yes, that is true if you can explain it properly. (Or 5+7=11, I don't remember what fact you used).

[Heart of Tin]

What I see is my son's recall of basic math facts now being worse than it was in the beginning of first grade because of a focus on base ten strategies and writing the explanation of how he got his answer.  I understand the need for being able to verbalize how you came up with your answer, but not in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade.  It's developmentally inappropriate.  Kids just do not think that critically at that young age.  They are much more black and white, like math SHOULD be.

My son told me the other day that "I don't even have to get the answer exactly right. I will get more points if I just know how to explain how I got my answer".  ... You can get more points for explanation than for actually getting the right answer.

Of all of you who base their knowledge/livelihoods and ability to retire early on MATH, I don't understand how this is not alarming to you.  Our kids are no longer learning real math.  It's fuzzy math where 3x4=11 as long as we can bullshit the explanation. 

Read James Milgram's take on it.  He is a mathematician at Stanford and refused to sign off on the math common core standards.  http://dianeravitch.net/2013/09/11/james-milgram-on-the-common-core-math-standards/

As for the non-fiction/fiction debate.  I do feel that BECAUSE most people actually read more non-fiction on a routine basis is precisely the reason why we should read more fiction in school. It expands our knowledge and thinking and vocabulary in a way that non-fiction just can't.  I say leave the non-fiction reading in Social Studies and Science classes, but English class should be left alone.

It sounds like you are placing a lot of emphasis on your son's functional ability in arithmetic. While that is important, a technical understanding of what goes into arithmetic is just as important, more so if he decides pursue a STEM degree. Mathematics is not the study of arithmetic, it is the study of symbolic systems. Learning arithmetic, either by rote or by algorithm, only helps you function within one narrowly defined symbolic system. It does not necessarily aid you in studying the patterns and rules of that system, nor in studying slightly different systems. In other words, memorizing 4x4 = 16 and knowing the "carry the two" method of multiplying numbers bigger than ten don't teach you very much about natural numbers. They just teach you what 14x14 is.

Your insistence on keeping fiction in classrooms tells me that you don't think this way in all subjects. You want your son to understand, not just grammar, but how to identify themes and meanings in what he reads. Not just the dates of Revolutionary War battles, but why we fought the Revolutionary War in the first place. Not just that the scientific method involves testing a hypothesis, but how to write and test his own hypothesis. Math involves the same level of creativity and critical thinking as every other subject. By introducing that dimension of math as early as possible, you lay a foundation for a better understand and aptitude for math throughout your son's life. It expands his knowledge and thinking and ability to adapt to different mathematical circumstances in a way that arithmetic alone just can't.

edit: Also, the linked letter from the Stanford professor emeritus only criticized the Common Core high school math curriculum as not preparing high schoolers well enough for college, mainly that it did not go far enough into precalculus and calculus. The letter had nothing at all to do with elementary math.

[Rural]

It sounds like you are placing a lot of emphasis on your son's functional ability in arithmetic. While that is important, a technical understanding of what goes into arithmetic is just as important, more so if he decides pursue a STEM degree. Mathematics is not the study of arithmetic, it is the study of symbolic systems. Learning arithmetic, either by rote or by algorithm, only helps you function within one narrowly defined symbolic system. It does not necessarily aid you in studying the patterns and rules of that system, nor in studying slightly different systems. In other words, memorizing 4x4 = 16 and knowing the "carry the two" method of multiplying numbers bigger than ten don't teach you very much about natural numbers. They just teach you what 14x14 is.

My husband, who teaches high school math, would like to quote this. Is that okay with you? PM me. If you'd like an attribution.

[Heart of Tin]

@Rural - quote away. No citation necessary.

[Jules13]

It sounds like you are placing a lot of emphasis on your son's functional ability in arithmetic.

This is true.  Because he's 8.  He's not currently pursuing a STEM degree.  He's 8.  He needs to understand his basic math facts so that the bigger "concepts" are easier for him to comprehend.  I am all for understanding the bigger picture in math, but I don't think the early elementary grades are where that should be.  I think there needs to be a foundation.  Last year was even worse.  It's very hard to get a 6, 7 or 8 year old to be able to explain something they just "know", like 2+2=4.  I'm also a believer in understanding basic math facts.  Knowing them.  Just off the top of your head.  So, that when a more complex math concept is being explained that you don't trip over and get stuck on those basic math facts and miss out on the bigger concept. 

But, I can see that I'm in the minority.  I do see your point.  But, you also don't see the homework that comes home each week and the fact that my son hasn't really learned a whole hell of a lot in math this year.  I get told by teachers all the time how smart he is, but I can also see that he's not learning a lot "in" school.  He reads a lot.  We do crosswords.  We play games.  We go places.  That's where most of his learning comes from.

And, you are right, James Milgrim didn't say anything about elementary level math, but to that point, why the hell are we starting these lofty concepts so early, in elementary, if they are still not going to be prepared after high school?

[Heart of Tin]

It sounds like you are placing a lot of emphasis on your son's functional ability in arithmetic.

This is true.  Because he's 8.  He's not currently pursuing a STEM degree.  He's 8.  He needs to understand his basic math facts so that the bigger "concepts" are easier for him to comprehend.  I am all for understanding the bigger picture in math, but I don't think the early elementary grades are where that should be.  I think there needs to be a foundation.  Last year was even worse.  It's very hard to get a 6, 7 or 8 year old to be able to explain something they just "know", like 2+2=4.  I'm also a believer in understanding basic math facts.  Knowing them.  Just off the top of your head.  So, that when a more complex math concept is being explained that you don't trip over and get stuck on those basic math facts and miss out on the bigger concept. 

Not to belabor the point, because we are just talking past each other now, but either he "just knows" math facts because he's memorized them or he actually does have the intuitive understanding that Common Core emphasizes, and his teacher should be giving him the language to express how he "just knows". That's what "strategies" are. If he's intuiting math, then he already gets the bigger concepts. His teacher should be facilitating the parallels between how he thinks and what he or she is teaching. Perhaps the class is too big or there's not enough time for such personalized attention, but from what you say, I think he's further along than either of you realize. Perhaps one of these days it will just click. When I was in third grade (1998-ish) my teacher attempted, at every turn, to give a more conceptual understanding of math. The way she explained things confirmed what I had already intuited about adding and subtracting. I hated timed times tables, but I was always excited to learn something new that hinted at a bigger concept (greatest common factors, square numbers, etc.). That's when I fell in love with math. I've since obtained a math degree, and I currently work in an applied math field. I suppose I'm a little biased.

[MDM]

Jules13, don't know if you are in the minority or not but we share many (all?) of your concerns.  In this case, "we" is mom & dad w/ engineering degrees, and several children in STEM fields, both in school and graduated.  Several of us have also participated in math mentoring programs to help primary and middle school kids who struggle with math. 

It's likely that the "correct" way to teach depends on the student.  Hamster's comment (reply #13; emphasis added) is worth reinforcing: "Learning and curriculum has much more to do with the particular school and parental involvement than with the standards in my experience. If they aren't teaching math in a way that you like, supplement that teaching after school."

We see comments (from the link in msilenus's reply #35) such as "Students will still learn what's known as the standard algorithm, the way that their parents learned to multiply, divide, add, and subtract.  But they'll also learn other methods that try to make the underpinnings of the standard method more obvious." 
Those comments look good at face value.  But the concerns of Frustrated Parent (see letter in that link) seem well founded.  Also the suggestion to welcome Common Core because "we want to tell parents ... they don't need to teach the math": see our concurrence with hamster's comment and one can guess our reaction to that suggestion.

It may well be as Heart of Tin suggests: your child may be "further along than either of you realize."  Different kids will react to different incentives (and if Common Core helps teachers learn ways to reach more kids, great), so perhaps yours could skip a grade in math if things really are coming that easily.

[msilenus]

Regarding Frustrated Parent's letter, I think the problem in that letter is pretty clear.  Jack's error was he forgot to step back by 10 once.  He went from stepping back by hundreds to stepping back by ones, and wound up off by his tens.  There was one ten, so he was off by ten.  Frustrated Parent was just being a neophobic complaineypants, and didn't seriously try to figure it out, IMO.

The problem is illustrating subtraction and its relationship to addition geometrically.  I think that's super cool.  Part of what excites me about Common Core is how a lot of it seems rooted in geometry, which is inherently grounded in reality.