Author Topic: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from  (Read 24449 times)

daverobev

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2016, 12:33:42 PM »
But, also, even if it doesn't matter to you, it matters to others. It matters to the trans men and women who want to be seen and treated as men and women. Your reaction is a bit like a straight, single person arguing against gay marriage by saying "I don't see why they want it, it's stupid and I don't want it." Ok, that's fine, but your option to marry or not is not in question. They just want the same opportunity you do, to decide for themselves what gender is going to mean to them.

They didn't say, at all, "it's stupid and I don't want it.". You can infer that, if you like, but I wouldn't.

I, also, don't get the fuss about *gay marriage*. The only problem I have with it is/was a linguistic one - and that has faded over time. It's marriage. It's two people (why only two - three, four, eight, twenty people ought to be able to get married!!1) who have made some kind of legal commitment. What it means, any of it, is up for debate. It's two people declaring to all and sundry that they are together. Good for them; of course they should get all the tax breaks and burdens placed on married couples. It's the same. Again, whether there should *be* and tax benefits or burdens for married couples is a completely different question (and in my mind, probably not).

I guess what you're saying is "trans men and women who want to be seen and treated as men and women" - but that's not really right, is it? They *are* TRANS men and TRANS women. It is a fact of nature - they were either born with penis & testicles or womb, ovaries etc. That is incontrovertable truth. That is their *sex*. They will always have been born male or female; nothing can change that.

As to that makes any difference on restricting where a person should urinate is completely different.

Does a person have a *right* to choose which bathroom to go in? Why do only *trans* people get the right? Or do they not - should all trans people be allowed only to go in the bathrooms of their adopted sex?

I mean, it all comes down to our gossiping, right? *She* looks awful today, *she* was born a man, *he's* married to a guy, *she* has children with three different men. *The prime minister* was caught sneaking out for a late night smoke after saying he'd quit.

Who cares. None of my, yours, or anyone else's business.

jrhampt

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2016, 12:58:20 PM »
Seconded.  I really don't get why gender is so important.  I think it should be LESS important than it is, not more.  And this is where the whole transgender movement loses me.  Pee where you want to; I don't care.  Dress however you want to.  Doesn't matter.

Gender is important because so much of our lives are built around it. Some of the most basic, common words are pronouns, which are gendered for people in English and for things in other languages. There are languages (Hebrew comes immediately to mind) where verbs are conjugated based on gender. How you think about yourself is gendered. How others see you is gendered.

I'm going to make a gendered assumption that you, jrhampt, are a man. I may be wrong, but my experience as a woman has been that women are more consistently confronted with gender as a restriction and are therefore more aware of it.

But, also, even if it doesn't matter to you, it matters to others. It matters to the trans men and women who want to be seen and treated as men and women. Your reaction is a bit like a straight, single person arguing against gay marriage by saying "I don't see why they want it, it's stupid and I don't want it." Ok, that's fine, but your option to marry or not is not in question. They just want the same opportunity you do, to decide for themselves what gender is going to mean to them.

I'm actually a woman.  I've spent most of my life arguing that my gender doesn't matter - precisely because so many of those gender restrictions are stupid, so that's why it irks me somewhat to see people making a big deal out of it.

ooeei

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2016, 01:15:15 PM »
If you feel uncomfortable with someone in a bathroom, don't go in there (or send your kids).  If someone is doing something creepy in a bathroom, alert a store manager.  Gender doesn't matter in either case. 

Allowing a trans person into a bathroom doesn't give them a license to be creeps or assault people.  The same way being a man doesn't give you license to be a creep in the men's room.  My friend is a manager at a local grocery store and has had to kick people out of the bathrooms a few times.  Never has he gone into the men's room when a guy is doing something creepy and said "Darn, you're a man, guess I can't kick you out because this is the men's room and you're allowed in here." 

The other thing to note is, a creepy guy could be in the women's bathroom anywhere you go waiting to assault someone regardless of rules.  Sure, he's not "allowed" in there, but there's usually not a security force watching the bathrooms.  Always use caution in public restrooms, rules don't stop the people who break the rules.

Should the government step in on any of this?  Well, they SHOULDN'T need to, but then again they shouldn't need to do the same thing to allow black people to drink from the same water fountain as white people.  I have a feeling like many other similar civil rights things, people in 50 years won't care at all if trans people use the same restroom as them and won't understand what the big deal was. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 01:18:43 PM by ooeei »

MoonShadow

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2016, 01:19:17 PM »

Allowing a trans person into a bathroom doesn't give them a license to be creeps or assault people.  The same way being a man doesn't give you license to be a creep in the men's room.


This.  There are already laws that prohibit bad social behavior in public, regardless of the location.  Increased regulation won't affect that one whit.  Reminds me of another thread.

Quote

The other thing to note is, a creepy guy could be in the women's bathroom anywhere you go waiting to assault someone regardless of rules.  Sure, he's not "allowed" in there, but there's usually not a security force watching the bathrooms.  Always use caution in public restrooms, rules don't stop the people who break the rules.

<cough> another thread <cough>

arebelspy

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2016, 07:42:41 PM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.
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Zikoris

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2016, 10:17:28 AM »
I think the problem with these policies is not transgender people, who just want to pee in peace, but non-trans creepy perverts taking advantage of the rules to be, well, creepy perverts. I know that they're still allowed to be kicked out for creeping in the ladies room, but honestly, I think a lot of employees would be pretty hesitant to do anything for fear of being fired or called a bigot, particularly if whatever the creepy pervert was doing was kind of borderline-creepy rather than outright illegal.

Basically the problem is a few scummy people ruining a good thing for everyone else, as usual.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2016, 12:26:03 PM »
Does a person have a *right* to choose which bathroom to go in? Why do only *trans* people get the right? Or do they not - should all trans people be allowed only to go in the bathrooms of their adopted sex?

.........................................

Who cares. None of my, yours, or anyone else's business.

Right now everyone has the right to use whatever bathroom they want. It's not illegal. Some districts are trying to remove that right from people. Trans people are upset because of their particular situation, following the law would make them uncomfortable. So, as you pointed out, there is little reason to legislatively restrict what bathroom humans can use.

SimpleSpartan

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2016, 08:45:06 AM »
I work at Target and can say it is very controversial indeed. While albeit in a very liberal town, we have had disturbances from protesters and occasionally get bad mouthed from customers. So far though no real incidents and hasn't been too bad. We also have a private bathroom if you "feel for your life" . One thing is for certain though if you have a problem with it don't purchase toilet paper then prceed to cuss out the cashier and tell him he works for the devil... ;) take it up with corporate... please. If you have any questions about the issue I can try and answer them

rosaz

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2016, 09:12:49 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 09:15:12 AM by rosaz »

dramaman

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2016, 09:39:21 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.

Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

Really, the only change that has occurred is that we wanted to openly acknowledge what was already happening - transgender people using the restroom that was appropriate for the gender they identified and most likely resembled.

dycker1978

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2016, 09:52:36 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.

I would be interested in seeing said statistics.  They are not what I have seen in any of my research on the topic.

Another thing that everyone needs to remember is that there are also trans men.  These people look, sound and act like cis men.  If they are required to go into the woman's room what is stopping a cis man from saying they are a trans man to go into the woman's room.  These bathroom laws are flawed.

http://www.thegloss.com/beauty/aydian-dowling-transgender-man-mens-health-ultimate-guy-contest/


rosaz

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2016, 10:00:12 AM »
Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

You're right, there were never guards - and I certainly don't think there should be. I'd say the difference though is that now if you ask someone to leave a locker room because they're making other people uncomfortable - and that person happens to be transgendered - you're risking a massive lawsuit, even if they were in the wrong, because you may not be able to prove it (especially for sometimes more subjective crimes like voyeurism or exhibitionism).

For example - As a minor, I had a run-in with an exhibitionist cis-male adult late on the street one night. One thing that occurs to me in all of this is that (for the very small percentage of transgender women who also just so happen to be predators) is that today, if that person had also been transgender, she wouldn't need to resort to following girls off the train; she could go to the nearest gym locker room, where not only could she not be arrested for the act, she could sue if anyone asked her to leave (whereas, if a cis-woman is misbehaving in the women's locker room, she can be asked to leave; she can't plausibly allege discrimination when they do so).

For those on this forum who feel this is very clear-cut: what are your thoughts on transgender female police officers doing body searches on female suspects, for instance? Do you think the suspects should be allowed to request a different police officer (if they generally wouldn't be allowed to do so)?

Gin1984

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2016, 10:02:43 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.

Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

Really, the only change that has occurred is that we wanted to openly acknowledge what was already happening - transgender people using the restroom that was appropriate for the gender they identified and most likely resembled.
Except that prior, a woman seeing someone she believed to be male would often report it and have him removed or be on guard allowing her to defend herself because a male looking person was not suppose to be in the female restroom.  Now women are told to just ignore it which does increase our risk. 

dycker1978

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2016, 10:06:40 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.

Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

Really, the only change that has occurred is that we wanted to openly acknowledge what was already happening - transgender people using the restroom that was appropriate for the gender they identified and most likely resembled.
Except that prior, a woman seeing someone she believed to be male would often report it and have him removed or be on guard allowing her to defend herself because a male looking person was not suppose to be in the female restroom.  Now women are told to just ignore it which does increase our risk.

Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

http://crossdreamers.tumblr.com/post/132816155556/trans-woman-asks-you-really-want-me-in-the-same

Gin1984

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2016, 10:11:22 AM »
Welp, what some people feared happened.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/13/transgender-woman-arrested-for-taking-pictures-in-target-changing-room/

And guess what?  The existing laws in place made doing what she did illegal, regardless of what sex she was born with, or what gender she identified as.  No laws were needed to force her into a different bathroom based on the sex she was born as.  And all the non-voyeur transgender people can use what they're most comfortable with.  Win-win.

Meh... not exactly a win-win for the 18 year-old (basically a child) who had her privacy violated. It's not terribly relevant here, since those changing rooms were non-gender-restricted anyway, so transgender policy wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. But I dislike the argument that as long as the violation is  illegal, no harm is done. Most liberals believe in gun control, because arresting someone after the murder can't bring back the life. When transwomen worry about being assaulted in the men's room, we don't say "don't worry, we'll just arrest your attacker afterwards if it happens".

The statistics I've seen say that transwomen perpetrate sex crimes against women at the same rate as cis men do. No more, no less. So yes, we should expect the same rate of violations as we would if we gave .5% of cis-men a pass to use the women's locker room/bathroom, etc. - i.e. if we got rid of the preventative measures and only policed them retroactively. Maybe that's a price we're willing to pay (I'm ambivalent myself), but to argue that there isn't a real trade-off, and that anyone who says otherwise is just being disingenuous - well, that strikes me as kind of disingenuous.

I would be interested in seeing said statistics.  They are not what I have seen in any of my research on the topic.

Another thing that everyone needs to remember is that there are also trans men.  These people look, sound and act like cis men.  If they are required to go into the woman's room what is stopping a cis man from saying they are a trans man to go into the woman's room.  These bathroom laws are flawed.

http://www.thegloss.com/beauty/aydian-dowling-transgender-man-mens-health-ultimate-guy-contest/
This is the only longitudinal study that I am aware of and it shows no decrease in violence in transwomen compared to cismen.  Interestingly it does show that transmen increase their violence compared to ciswomen.  If you have other studies I would be interested in reading them. 
Eta:  I don't know why my citation did not copy but here it is:http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885%20
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 12:24:38 PM by Gin1984 »

rosaz

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2016, 10:13:18 AM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

JLee

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2016, 10:14:31 AM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, for instance, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

So...the return of segregation?

rosaz

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2016, 10:17:28 AM »
So...the return of segregation?

I've heard the Jim Crow analogy before, but I think it only holds up if you think we should have only let black people *who identify as white* use the white bathrooms. Jim Crow was wrong because there is no reason to divide people by races for bathroom use; not because some people felt they were mis-categorized. If you want to argue that there should be no locker room/dorm room/TSA pat-down segregation by gender/sex at all, at least the analogy would make sense, but I think you'd have a lot of progressives (at least progressive women) fight you on that one.

dycker1978

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2016, 10:21:31 AM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, for instance, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

So...the return of segregation?

No, the opposite.  remove the urinal idea.  Have only stall with floor to celling walls. Get rid of all gendered washrooms altogether.  Every one goes in, closes and locks their stalls.  No one can peek.

This will also double the amount of traffic to the restroom(both genders two times the traffic right?) and make crimes of people trying to assault some one less likely as the person committing the crime has more chance of being walked in on.

As far as change rooms.  Do them exactly the same way.


JLee

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2016, 10:23:51 AM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, for instance, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

So...the return of segregation?

No, the opposite.  remove the urinal idea.  Have only stall with floor to celling walls. Get rid of all gendered washrooms altogether.  Every one goes in, closes and locks their stalls.  No one can peek.

This will also double the amount of traffic to the restroom(both genders two times the traffic right?) and make crimes of people trying to assault some one less likely as the person committing the crime has more chance of being walked in on.

As far as change rooms.  Do them exactly the same way.

Please note the bolded portion in the post quoted above.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #120 on: July 19, 2016, 10:27:28 AM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, for instance, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

So...the return of segregation?

No, the opposite.  remove the urinal idea.  Have only stall with floor to celling walls. Get rid of all gendered washrooms altogether.  Every one goes in, closes and locks their stalls.  No one can peek.

This will also double the amount of traffic to the restroom(both genders two times the traffic right?) and make crimes of people trying to assault some one less likely as the person committing the crime has more chance of being walked in on.

As far as change rooms.  Do them exactly the same way.

Please note the bolded portion in the post quoted above.

Not transgender people.  All people.  Every human deserves the same human rights.  If one gets something then everyone should.  Privilege should not exist.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2016, 10:42:18 AM »
Not transgender people.  All people.  Every human deserves the same human rights.  If one gets something then everyone should.  Privilege should not exist.

So we should get rid of all rules relating to gender/sex segregated facilities? If not, you're arguing for segregation too - you're just drawing the line in a different place than me. Which is fine, make that argument, but I really think it's less of a clear-cut moral question and more of a messy 'balancing of different rights' question.

And if yes - ok, I respect your opinion, even if I personally think integrating our prison cells is a terrible idea.

dycker1978

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2016, 10:56:30 AM »
Not transgender people.  All people.  Every human deserves the same human rights.  If one gets something then everyone should.  Privilege should not exist.

So we should get rid of all rules relating to gender/sex segregated facilities? If not, you're arguing for segregation too - you're just drawing the line in a different place than me. Which is fine, make that argument, but I really think it's less of a clear-cut moral question and more of a messy 'balancing of different rights' question.

And if yes - ok, I respect your opinion, even if I personally think integrating our prison cells is a terrible idea.

I think that there needs to be thought given to this. Bathrooms are easier to do.  Like I said, just a floor to roof stall for everyone.

I am not sure what the answer is, for some of the harder questions, prison being one of them.

I think though that education is key.  Learn about transgender people.  Meet some of them.  This will allow every one to see that they are not big and scary.  They are just people like the rest of us trying to find their fit.  To contribute to society the same as every one else.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #123 on: July 19, 2016, 11:48:37 AM »
Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

You're right, there were never guards - and I certainly don't think there should be. I'd say the difference though is that now if you ask someone to leave a locker room because they're making other people uncomfortable - and that person happens to be transgendered - you're risking a massive lawsuit, even if they were in the wrong, because you may not be able to prove it (especially for sometimes more subjective crimes like voyeurism or exhibitionism).

For example - As a minor, I had a run-in with an exhibitionist cis-male adult late on the street one night. One thing that occurs to me in all of this is that (for the very small percentage of transgender women who also just so happen to be predators) is that today, if that person had also been transgender, she wouldn't need to resort to following girls off the train; she could go to the nearest gym locker room, where not only could she not be arrested for the act, she could sue if anyone asked her to leave (whereas, if a cis-woman is misbehaving in the women's locker room, she can be asked to leave; she can't plausibly allege discrimination when they do so).[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. You are incorrect, however, in stating that a transgender woman could not be arrested for harassing women in a women's locker room. Any woman, transgender or otherwise, could be arrested for harassing women in a women's locker room.

When encountering someone in a bathroom or locker room, the thing to ask oneself is are they making you uncomfortable because of their mere presence or are they making you uncomfortable because they are harassing you? If its the former, get over it, do your business and get out. If its the latter, then just get out and complain to authorities. Depending upon whether there are other witnesses, it could turn into a matter of trustworthiness, but if you behave calmly and not make a fuss over 'whether that person belongs in the restroom/locker room' I seriously doubt you need to fear any lawsuits. In these kinds of cases, character, or lack thereof, generally makes itself known fairly quickly.

For those on this forum who feel this is very clear-cut: what are your thoughts on transgender female police officers doing body searches on female suspects, for instance? Do you think the suspects should be allowed to request a different police officer (if they generally wouldn't be allowed to do so)?

I'm not a woman and I have never had a body search, but have had a male doctor with his hand up my rectum.

In regards to something like an invasive body search, I would want it done by someone who made me feel comfortable. If I was detained, I doubt I would get such a luxury. Such a procedure is humiliating and I would want to get it over as quickly as possible with someone who was professional, regardless of their gender or LGBT status.

I can't say how I would feel if I was a woman.

Would it bother you if you had to undergo a body search and the person conducting it looked and sounded female and acted in a totally appropriate professional manner, but then later you found out this person was transgender?

What if the woman doing you body search looked transgender, with a deep voice and masculine features? Would you feel uncomfortable even if she behaved totally professional? Would any discomfort go away if you then found out the woman was married with 3 kids she had given birth to?

At some point in time we have to ask ourselves if our discomfort with a person is based on what kind of person they are on the inside or on who we perceive them to be from the outside.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2016, 12:37:15 PM »
Again, this law is completely flawed.  There are trans men to you know.  Where are they suppose to pee.  This law says in the ladies room.

Which is why I don't think there should be a law about it - either in the North Carolina mode (must use birth-sex facilities), or the Massachusetts one (illegal not to let them in identified-gender facilities). I have no issue with bathroom choice, for instance, especially since I really don't see an alternative that is respectful of transgendered people. But I think it may be reasonable to ask transgender people to use a single-stall locker room, for instance, at least if other people there request it. Or for a college to place incoming transgender freshmen in single-person bedrooms, even if they request a double-person bedroom, etc. I just don't see a state (or federal) government coming in and applying a one-size-fits-all ruling helpful, when the specific circumstances really do matter.

So...the return of segregation?

No, the opposite.  remove the urinal idea.  Have only stall with floor to celling walls. Get rid of all gendered washrooms altogether.  Every one goes in, closes and locks their stalls.  No one can peek.

This will also double the amount of traffic to the restroom(both genders two times the traffic right?) and make crimes of people trying to assault some one less likely as the person committing the crime has more chance of being walked in on.

As far as change rooms.  Do them exactly the same way.

Huh. I've never thought about this before, but I guess if I was being harrassed in a public toilet I would rather a man walked in on it than a woman because your average man is more likely to be able to intimidate or even fight off my harrasser than your average woman. Never considered this issue that way before.

About the body search/doctor thing, I've had "lady problems" appointments with doctors before and I've always requested a female doctor. Not that I wouldn't have had the appointment if only male doctors were available, just that if I have the choice I'd rather have a woman as I would feel a bit less awkward feeling like she might be able to relate to my problem. A professional male doctor would be fine, I'd just rather have a professional female doctor. And I guess if I had to pick, I'd rather have a professional female doctor than a professional transgender-female doctor, but that's not to say by any means that I would refuse to be seen by a transgender-female doctor if she was the one offering appointments. But I guess if the transgender-female doctor was fully transitioned and I couldn't tell (and wasn't told) then it's pretty equal, because it's only my awkwardness I'm trying to address, not some aspect of the doctor's gender that affects their ability to do their job.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #125 on: July 20, 2016, 07:29:24 AM »
But I guess if the transgender-female doctor was fully transitioned and I couldn't tell (and wasn't told) then it's pretty equal, because it's only my awkwardness I'm trying to address, not some aspect of the doctor's gender that affects their ability to do their job.

I think your awkwardness might stem from your doctors apparently conducting your visits pantless.

In all seriousness, whether or not a trans person has had surgery is generally not indicative of how they "pass". This is generally more true for transmen than transwomen (google Buck Angel...not at work, with safe search on), but it can work both ways. A lot of people opt to keep the genitals they were born with because man-made genitals don't function like god-given ones.

If all you're looking for is a woman doctor who appears feminine enough to set you at ease, that's fine. But that's going to involve you either asking more pointed questions (Dr. Soandso is free? Does she look like Janet Reno?) or googling the doctor on the fly.

dramaman

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #126 on: July 20, 2016, 07:35:33 AM »
Dr. Soandso is free? Does she look like Janet Reno?

LOL, poor Janet Reno. Now I can't help but wonder if somebody would make a scene if she used the women's restroom in Target.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2016, 07:36:58 AM »
Exactly what preventative measures are you referring to? It's not like prior to the transgender restroom blowup that we had guards at the doors physically checking people's private parts to make sure they used the 'appropriate' restroom.

You're right, there were never guards - and I certainly don't think there should be. I'd say the difference though is that now if you ask someone to leave a locker room because they're making other people uncomfortable - and that person happens to be transgendered - you're risking a massive lawsuit, even if they were in the wrong, because you may not be able to prove it (especially for sometimes more subjective crimes like voyeurism or exhibitionism).

For example - As a minor, I had a run-in with an exhibitionist cis-male adult late on the street one night. One thing that occurs to me in all of this is that (for the very small percentage of transgender women who also just so happen to be predators) is that today, if that person had also been transgender, she wouldn't need to resort to following girls off the train; she could go to the nearest gym locker room, where not only could she not be arrested for the act, she could sue if anyone asked her to leave (whereas, if a cis-woman is misbehaving in the women's locker room, she can be asked to leave; she can't plausibly allege discrimination when they do so).

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. You are incorrect, however, in stating that a transgender woman could not be arrested for harassing women in a women's locker room. Any woman, transgender or otherwise, could be arrested for harassing women in a women's locker room.

When encountering someone in a bathroom or locker room, the thing to ask oneself is are they making you uncomfortable because of their mere presence or are they making you uncomfortable because they are harassing you? If its the former, get over it, do your business and get out. If its the latter, then just get out and complain to authorities. Depending upon whether there are other witnesses, it could turn into a matter of trustworthiness, but if you behave calmly and not make a fuss over 'whether that person belongs in the restroom/locker room' I seriously doubt you need to fear any lawsuits. In these kinds of cases, character, or lack thereof, generally makes itself known fairly quickly.

For those on this forum who feel this is very clear-cut: what are your thoughts on transgender female police officers doing body searches on female suspects, for instance? Do you think the suspects should be allowed to request a different police officer (if they generally wouldn't be allowed to do so)?

I'm not a woman and I have never had a body search, but have had a male doctor with his hand up my rectum.

In regards to something like an invasive body search, I would want it done by someone who made me feel comfortable. If I was detained, I doubt I would get such a luxury. Such a procedure is humiliating and I would want to get it over as quickly as possible with someone who was professional, regardless of their gender or LGBT status.

I can't say how I would feel if I was a woman.

Would it bother you if you had to undergo a body search and the person conducting it looked and sounded female and acted in a totally appropriate professional manner, but then later you found out this person was transgender?

What if the woman doing you body search looked transgender, with a deep voice and masculine features? Would you feel uncomfortable even if she behaved totally professional? Would any discomfort go away if you then found out the woman was married with 3 kids she had given birth to?

At some point in time we have to ask ourselves if our discomfort with a person is based on what kind of person they are on the inside or on who we perceive them to be from the outside.
[/quote]
I know in my state, as well as at least with the TSA, you are required to get an officer of your own sex/gender (not sure how the law is written) unless there is a immediate safety issue. 

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #128 on: July 20, 2016, 11:04:47 AM »
But I guess if the transgender-female doctor was fully transitioned and I couldn't tell (and wasn't told) then it's pretty equal, because it's only my awkwardness I'm trying to address, not some aspect of the doctor's gender that affects their ability to do their job.

I think your awkwardness might stem from your doctors apparently conducting your visits pantless.

In all seriousness, whether or not a trans person has had surgery is generally not indicative of how they "pass". This is generally more true for transmen than transwomen (google Buck Angel...not at work, with safe search on), but it can work both ways. A lot of people opt to keep the genitals they were born with because man-made genitals don't function like god-given ones.

If all you're looking for is a woman doctor who appears feminine enough to set you at ease, that's fine. But that's going to involve you either asking more pointed questions (Dr. Soandso is free? Does she look like Janet Reno?) or googling the doctor on the fly.

I meant if the surgery asked me "Would you rather have this appointment with Dr X or Dr Y? By the way, Dr Y is transgender." You know, like if I was confronted with the decision and made to pick. Not because I Facebook stalk my doctors beforehand to find out if they are transgender or not.

merula

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #129 on: July 20, 2016, 03:02:50 PM »
Dr. Soandso is free? Does she look like Janet Reno?

LOL, poor Janet Reno. Now I can't help but wonder if somebody would make a scene if she used the women's restroom in Target.

I have a lot of respect for Janet Reno, and I did think twice about that comparison, but it seemed funny and I couldn't think of any other examples of masculine-looking cis women that wouldn't be more offensive. Like, I considered Chyna, but I didn't want to speak ill of the dead and I think her ghost could beat me up.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #130 on: July 20, 2016, 03:19:22 PM »
I think though that education is key.  Learn about transgender people.  Meet some of them.  This will allow every one to see that they are not big and scary.  They are just people like the rest of us trying to find their fit.  To contribute to society the same as every one else.

I think education is key, but people mix 'education' with pushing their specific societal norms based on loose trends within the social sciences. I honestly don't think a policy that enforces bathroom policy based on biological sex is discriminatory. I also don't think pushing the viewpoint that anyone that opposes this transgender viewpoint is fearful, paranoid, or illogical. That's really just an attempt to shut down the conversation instead of drilling down to the real problems, on both sides of the issue.

Personally, I don't think this type of policy should be in the hands of the public sphere, including teaching this specific brand of social justice by maligning 'inclusiveness' and 'tolerance' towards one viewpoint and not the other. Private companies like Target should be able to set whatever bathroom policy they want, discriminating based on whatever metric they feel like: sex, race, culture, etc. This stuff always becomes fodder in the public sphere because for most people enacting public policy pushes social acceptance down everyone else's throat at gunpoint and as we've seen with Target and North Carolina, turns into a national agenda that pushes ideology instead of legitimately helping people.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #131 on: July 21, 2016, 11:52:24 AM »
Thanks for a wider perspective.  My teacher friends here in Seattle say the kids a like -- "whatever" and couldn't care less.

It seems it's the stodgy old folks getting wrapped around the axel about it.  Agreed - in a few years the question will be "why was there such a fuss"
Well, thats Seattle. Haha, but I mostly agree that the bathroom thing  is much ado about nothing.

I am have more--interest should we say? I cant really say "concern" since this doesn't rise to that level for me--in things where innate male anatomy dictates results. For instance, what about transfemals who go after athletic scholarships in women's sports? And go after spots on pro teams?

In the first instance will the Dept of Education be required to acquiesce to any gender identification? The 2015 ruling from Obama's Dept of Ed that Title IX funds are jeopardized if schools do not respect gender identity supports the idea that transmen can play on women's teams.


Esited to change ransman to transfemales..
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 08:04:55 PM by iris lily »

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #132 on: July 21, 2016, 07:28:37 PM »
Would that be that big of a deal? The percentage of transsexual persons is very small, and if one happens to be gifted at athletic competition, why should they be held to a standard no one else is?

The locker room situation may be the next argument, but I can't really see why a transgender male wouldn't be allowed to play, practice and shower with cis gendered females, and vice versa.

iris lily

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #133 on: July 21, 2016, 08:09:13 PM »
Would that be that big of a deal? The percentage of transsexual persons is very small, and if one happens to be gifted at athletic competition, why should they be held to a standard no one else is?

The locker room situation may be the next argument, but I can't really see why a transgender male wouldn't be allowed to play, practice and shower with cis gendered females, and vice versa.

Sure,there arent many trans people,although that is today, there will be more later. And I am thinkng more of inauthentic transpeople taking on roles from which they profit.

Old people like me remember the Rene Richards controversy, a transwoman who played professinal tennis. She  was decades ago.She was authentically trans, though, it was not a scam.


« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 07:20:03 AM by iris lily »

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2016, 08:42:23 AM »
I thought I read that estrogen leads to more female like strength and muscle mass.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2016, 08:54:56 AM »
I thought I read that estrogen leads to more female like strength and muscle mass.

This statement is kinda confusing, but I will try and address it the best I can.  Estrogen is the female hormone.  It causes female features, like breasts, a rising of the voice and the features that people see as feminine.  Yes if a trans woman start estrogen, to replace the natural testosterone she will grow breasts.  It basically restarts puberty as  a female.

Testosterone is the male hormone.  When a trans man starts "T" their voice will lower, they will start growing more body hair.  They may experience male pattern baldness, if that runs in the family.  basically this restarts the puberty as a male.

Now to address your question as I see it.  Testosterone is the hormone that is see as the one that causes mussel mass etc to increase.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2016, 09:04:43 AM »
Testosterone is the hormone that is see as the one that causes mussel mass etc to increase.

Like this

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2016, 10:46:18 AM »
Seconded.  I really don't get why gender is so important.  I think it should be LESS important than it is, not more.  And this is where the whole transgender movement loses me.  Pee where you want to; I don't care.  Dress however you want to.  Doesn't matter.

Gender is important because so much of our lives are built around it. Some of the most basic, common words are pronouns, which are gendered for people in English and for things in other languages. There are languages (Hebrew comes immediately to mind) where verbs are conjugated based on gender. How you think about yourself is gendered. How others see you is gendered.
...

I'm actually a woman.  I've spent most of my life arguing that my gender doesn't matter - precisely because so many of those gender restrictions are stupid, so that's why it irks me somewhat to see people making a big deal out of it.

I'm with jrhampt. 100% agree that gender plays a huge part in life/language/interaction/law; but think that the solution is to change the use of language etc. When I read about the difficulties trans people have, for example getting official documentation that matches their gender, I question why any passport should refer to gender? Problems getting called Mr/Ms/Mx or he vs she vs they - why do we still distinguish based on gender?

Also, does it creep anyone else out when a baby is born or expected and people ask first 'boy or girl'? If we are okay to assume that an infant or foetus isn't yet expressing a gender identify, you are asking about an infant's genitals. That is your first question; what do the genitals of your child look like? Urghhhh Or, only slightly better, you are asking about genitals so that you can apply your stereotyping assumptions about men and women to a child.

Apart from the use of 'he' as a default pronoun; Terry Pratchett's dwarfs have it right. They're all treated the same, you only find out someone's gender if you're thinking about getting naked with them.

Genuinely interested to hear alternative views.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2016, 11:26:52 AM »
When I have children I am definitely keeping the gender secret before birth so that people can't build up excessive images of what they might be like based on their gender. "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with him!" "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" It's so silly.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2016, 06:15:28 PM »
When I have children I am definitely keeping the gender secret before birth so that people can't build up excessive images of what they might be like based on their gender. "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with him!" "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" It's so silly.

We chose not to find out with our first (I had strong preference not to know, wife had mild preference but would've YOLOd one day but the baby didn't want her to see). My wife thought it was going to be a boy. SIL was present at the birth; turns out we had a girl. SIL said: Look! (to me, as in: it's a girl). I replied something along the lines of "I don't care!" - as in, I'm relieved we had no significant issues etc etc.

This time we'll find out, baby permitting. Because - for me at least - the sex just is not relevant. Mind you, nobody says anything about gender stuff to me in the way you describe.

Our little one is pretty interested in Anna and Elsa, Rapunzel etc.. but she also likes tractors, trucks. She def. likes dresses (she often wears two of them at once...).

I get what you're saying. But the "damage" will come from society after the birth (to the child). She likes doing what mum does, so she likes nail varnish and that kind of stuff. I don't know - how much is natural and how much is "us treating her like a girl".

I think honestly people are just happy for you, regardless of sex. People love babies. (Not me, I bloody hate them, haha.. No not really. Ahem.)

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2016, 06:59:29 PM »
When I have children I am definitely keeping the gender secret before birth so that people can't build up excessive images of what they might be like based on their gender. "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with himl!" "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" It's so silly.

Ah, but see, the type of people who will do that (hopefully you don't know many) will do that anyways, after they're born.

I feel like it's better to shut it down early, while pregnant.

E.g. if you're having a girl, and they say (your examples) "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" -- you can respond "If she wants.. or we'll play football."  Or to their "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with himl!"  "Sure, if he wants...or playing with dolls, if that's what he fancies."

They get the message early, and then hopefully will be treated that way, as you set the example and expectation way early.  Especially important if they're a family member or someone this child will be around a lot.

By refusing to address it until they're born, it's not like it solves the problem, it just kicks the can down the road, and possibly makes it more difficult to address on a shorter timeframe.

Obviously do what you think is best, those were just some of our thoughts on the gender thing in regard to finding out early.  :)

The other thing we liked is by finding out, and letting people know, they wouldn't build up in their head and be disappointed if it was one way or the other.. they find out, and can be excited for that individual when they're born, not disappointed.
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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2016, 03:42:46 AM »
I'm with jrhampt. 100% agree that gender plays a huge part in life/language/interaction/law; but think that the solution is to change the use of language etc. When I read about the difficulties trans people have, for example getting official documentation that matches their gender, I question why any passport should refer to gender? Problems getting called Mr/Ms/Mx or he vs she vs they - why do we still distinguish based on gender?

Also, does it creep anyone else out when a baby is born or expected and people ask first 'boy or girl'? If we are okay to assume that an infant or foetus isn't yet expressing a gender identify, you are asking about an infant's genitals. That is your first question; what do the genitals of your child look like? Urghhhh Or, only slightly better, you are asking about genitals so that you can apply your stereotyping assumptions about men and women to a child.

Apart from the use of 'he' as a default pronoun; Terry Pratchett's dwarfs have it right. They're all treated the same, you only find out someone's gender if you're thinking about getting naked with them.

Genuinely interested to hear alternative views.

Are we disregarding any actual differences between the sexes now? You can rail against it all you want, but biological traits will influence a lot in how boys and girls develop, how they learn, interact with others, how they grow, when puberty hits and what you should expect, etc. Just because a lot of these traits don't exist in the very young doesn't mean that they won't develop later and we could be creating a society where we're telling people to be comfortable with identifying with the gender of their choice early and then having them find out the reality that their body, their hormones, and their brain doesn't conform to what they want. Whatever they identify as, an 18 year old (assuming no surgery or treatment) will have the body of whatever sex they were born with, and part of that 'gender norming' is teaching young adults on how to safely cope.

At what point do we point out delusion and take responsibility for the significantly higher suicide and depression rate among trans people that isn't wholly attributable to societal intolerance. How much inner turmoil is being fostered by promoting this behavior?

I often feel like we went the wrong way in regards to defining gender identity. We've essentially narrowed down traits for male and female and created a broad path for everything in between and beyond. However, I believe that male and female encompasses a broad range of social behaviors that can be outside what people traditionally assign to those roles and that you're right in supporting a girl that wants to play football, or a boy that likes to sew. It's not identifying as that gender that's the problem, it's shifting gender based on societal perception of gender roles (I'm a boy that likes playing with dolls, therefore I'm not a boy) that we need to fight.

I could be wildly off-base here though.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2016, 04:53:07 AM »


Are we disregarding any actual differences between the sexes now?
...
I often feel like we went the wrong way in regards to defining gender identity. We've essentially narrowed down traits for male and female and created a broad path for everything in between and beyond. However, I believe that male and female encompasses a broad range of social behaviors that can be outside what people traditionally assign to those roles and that you're right in supporting a girl that wants to play football, or a boy that likes to sew. It's not identifying as that gender that's the problem, it's shifting gender based on societal perception of gender roles (I'm a boy that likes playing with dolls, therefore I'm not a boy) that we need to fight.

I could be wildly off-base here though.

I think we are broadly in agreement:
1. there are biological differences between XX and XY bodies, not contended.

2.There are also broad statistical trends in preferences of many XX and XY people - prefering trucks over dolls, trends in body shapes, tendencies towards violent behaviour. Not contended.

3. There is then a vast amount of bullshit where things that are personality types, preferences, (whether or not they are more common in XX or XY bodies) are taken to be typical of one particular gender (XX people cook, nurse, care for children; XY people hunt and fight, code, watch sport). Further, people are treated very differently when they present as male or female (in circumstances that should have nothing to do with biology or mating). I'm saying that all of this is bullshit and should be stomped out.

If we were less caught up in #3 - assuming different behaviour from men and women, identifying people by gender rather than personality, role, (more interesting things) etc., then a lot of the problems trans people face would be non-issues. A child playing with a doll would be unremarkable regardless of what was inside their pants or whether they later grow up identifying as male or female.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2016, 07:36:21 AM »
When I have children I am definitely keeping the gender secret before birth so that people can't build up excessive images of what they might be like based on their gender. "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with him!" "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" It's so silly.

Yeah, XS and I haven't found out our baby's sex. We had no desire to set expectations of what it would be or how it would act.  We're excited to find out in a couple of weeks, but other than names we couldn't think of any reason to change anything we would do based on sex. I can't imagine pandering to anyone else's expectations based on my gender, and I hardly think it would be fair to expect my child to either.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2016, 04:37:38 PM »
When I have children I am definitely keeping the gender secret before birth so that people can't build up excessive images of what they might be like based on their gender. "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with himl!" "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" It's so silly.

Ah, but see, the type of people who will do that (hopefully you don't know many) will do that anyways, after they're born.

I feel like it's better to shut it down early, while pregnant.

E.g. if you're having a girl, and they say (your examples) "Oh, a girl! Won't it be great to dress her up in pretty clothes!" -- you can respond "If she wants.. or we'll play football."  Or to their "Oh, a boy! You must be so looking forward to playing football with himl!"  "Sure, if he wants...or playing with dolls, if that's what he fancies."

They get the message early, and then hopefully will be treated that way, as you set the example and expectation way early.  Especially important if they're a family member or someone this child will be around a lot.

By refusing to address it until they're born, it's not like it solves the problem, it just kicks the can down the road, and possibly makes it more difficult to address on a shorter timeframe.

Obviously do what you think is best, those were just some of our thoughts on the gender thing in regard to finding out early.  :)

The other thing we liked is by finding out, and letting people know, they wouldn't build up in their head and be disappointed if it was one way or the other.. they find out, and can be excited for that individual when they're born, not disappointed.

It's not like I would refuse to address it, though. Because people will still ask "Is it a boy or a girl?" I'd just respond that we don't know and are not interested in finding out and why does it even matter anyway? Then, no doubt, some people will say something stupid like not knowing what colour to paint the nursery. At which point one eyebrow will slowly raise and the "you're an idiot" stare will happen. Seems to me like I'll have plenty of opportunity to shut it down while still not allowling them to build up elaborate fantasies of my future child's personality based on its gender.

I'll be honest, gender-based expectations are unlikely to be a huge problem with our family and close friends. I guess I'm just stubborn and looking forward to digging my heels in over it :)

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2016, 07:52:35 PM »
Somethng to think about re people discussing gender of your fetus: there isnt really much to talk about in baby small talk. I am not very interested in babies. Gender may be the only thing
I know to ask you about, because I am limited, ya know? Cut me some slack.

Its all more interesting when the kid has been born, well, about 8 months into it. I dislike tiny babies and likely wont even get near enough to talk to you at all if you are holding one of them.

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #146 on: July 26, 2016, 12:28:44 AM »
Somethng to think about re people discussing gender of your fetus: there isnt really much to talk about in baby small talk. I am not very interested in babies. Gender may be the only thing
I know to ask you about, because I am limited, ya know? Cut me some slack.

Its all more interesting when the kid has been born, well, about 8 months into it. I dislike tiny babies and likely wont even get near enough to talk to you at all if you are holding one of them.

Part of it is also because I think baby small talk is stupid, and it's a great way to shut such a conversation down and move onto other things. "Is it a boy or a girl?" "Not telling. Are you interested in history? Because I saw this great documentary last night..."

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #147 on: July 26, 2016, 12:38:09 AM »
Somethng to think about re people discussing gender of your fetus: there isnt really much to talk about in baby small talk. I am not very interested in babies. Gender may be the only thing
I know to ask you about, because I am limited, ya know? Cut me some slack.

Its all more interesting when the kid has been born, well, about 8 months into it. I dislike tiny babies and likely wont even get near enough to talk to you at all if you are holding one of them.

Part of it is also because I think baby small talk is stupid, and it's a great way to shut such a conversation down and move onto other things. "Is it a boy or a girl?" "Not telling. Are you interested in history? Because I saw this great documentary last night..."

Huh.  Again, I'd think the opposite.

"Girl.  Are you interested in history? Because I saw this great documentary last night..."  seems to me to turn the conversation quicker than "not telling" (which raises more questions).

But to each his own. :)
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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #148 on: July 26, 2016, 04:22:13 AM »
Somethng to think about re people discussing gender of your fetus: there isnt really much to talk about in baby small talk. I am not very interested in babies. Gender may be the only thing
I know to ask you about, because I am limited, ya know? Cut me some slack.

Its all more interesting when the kid has been born, well, about 8 months into it. I dislike tiny babies and likely wont even get near enough to talk to you at all if you are holding one of them.

Part of it is also because I think baby small talk is stupid, and it's a great way to shut such a conversation down and move onto other things. "Is it a boy or a girl?" "Not telling. Are you interested in history? Because I saw this great documentary last night..."

Huh.  Again, I'd think the opposite.

"Girl.  Are you interested in history? Because I saw this great documentary last night..."  seems to me to turn the conversation quicker than "not telling" (which raises more questions).

But to each his own. :)

Probably both are much better plans than our answer: "We don't know."

'Cuz then you get to listen to ten minutes about "Oh! Good for you!" or how the other party couldn't imagine not knowing the sex of their baby and how they just hate surprises and 'how do you know what color to paint the room/ clothes to buy/ toys they'll need etc. etc. etc.'  By the time you can get a word in about documentaries, they've already bored you to death.  So in either event, you both chose better than the worst way...

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Re: Target's Transgender Bathroom Policy [Split from
« Reply #149 on: July 26, 2016, 04:36:02 AM »
I'm with jrhampt. 100% agree that gender plays a huge part in life/language/interaction/law; but think that the solution is to change the use of language etc. When I read about the difficulties trans people have, for example getting official documentation that matches their gender, I question why any passport should refer to gender? Problems getting called Mr/Ms/Mx or he vs she vs they - why do we still distinguish based on gender?

Also, does it creep anyone else out when a baby is born or expected and people ask first 'boy or girl'? If we are okay to assume that an infant or foetus isn't yet expressing a gender identify, you are asking about an infant's genitals. That is your first question; what do the genitals of your child look like? Urghhhh Or, only slightly better, you are asking about genitals so that you can apply your stereotyping assumptions about men and women to a child.

Apart from the use of 'he' as a default pronoun; Terry Pratchett's dwarfs have it right. They're all treated the same, you only find out someone's gender if you're thinking about getting naked with them.

Genuinely interested to hear alternative views.

Are we disregarding any actual differences between the sexes now? You can rail against it all you want, but biological traits will influence a lot in how boys and girls develop, how they learn, interact with others, how they grow, when puberty hits and what you should expect, etc. Just because a lot of these traits don't exist in the very young doesn't mean that they won't develop later and we could be creating a society where we're telling people to be comfortable with identifying with the gender of their choice early and then having them find out the reality that their body, their hormones, and their brain doesn't conform to what they want. Whatever they identify as, an 18 year old (assuming no surgery or treatment) will have the body of whatever sex they were born with, and part of that 'gender norming' is teaching young adults on how to safely cope.

At what point do we point out delusion and take responsibility for the significantly higher suicide and depression rate among trans people that isn't wholly attributable to societal intolerance. How much inner turmoil is being fostered by promoting this behavior?

I often feel like we went the wrong way in regards to defining gender identity. We've essentially narrowed down traits for male and female and created a broad path for everything in between and beyond. However, I believe that male and female encompasses a broad range of social behaviors that can be outside what people traditionally assign to those roles and that you're right in supporting a girl that wants to play football, or a boy that likes to sew. It's not identifying as that gender that's the problem, it's shifting gender based on societal perception of gender roles (I'm a boy that likes playing with dolls, therefore I'm not a boy) that we need to fight.

I could be wildly off-base here though.

I'd contend that the "inner turmoil" is a direct result of being pressured by an external society to be a certain way. Transgendered people are probably actually born the way they are. This isn't some conscious decision that they're making to alienate themselves from society at large which is un-accepting of them.

 

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