Author Topic: Talking To Flat Earth Friends  (Read 12724 times)

Dabnasty

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2018, 02:34:47 PM »
It's true that a presidential candidate is required to publicly affirm allegiance to God in the United States to be elected.  It's not true that they have to believe the crazy stuff though.  Look at Donald Trump.  While he's a horrible person, he's also incredibly obvious about his lack of religion.  He certainly doesn't read the bible.  He doesn't follow the 10 commandments.  I'd be surprised if he knew what the word transubstantiation meant.

I would pay good money to hear Trump try to pronounce transubstantiation sight unseen.

And I'm a cheap bastard.

frugalecon

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2018, 03:57:58 PM »
It is so worrisome that I could not be friends with somewhat who was so willfully ignorant. I simply could not respect someone like that, and so there would be no basis for a mutually satisfying relationship.

Could you be friends with a hardline Christian?  Millions of Americans believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky, and the literal truth of biblical stories like a global flood, talking animals, magical resurrection frim the dead, and turning water into wine.  For the most part, these people are not only not shunned they are celebrated as model citizens.  Every presidential candidate is required to publicly affirm a belief in these stories, and would be called unfit for office if he didn't.

From my point of view, believing that religious magical stories are literally true is no different from believing the earth is flat.  These things are easily disproven by rudimentary application of the scientific method.  That doesn't mean you can't still be a good person while believing in it, as long as you can separate your desire to believe in magic from your daily life decisions which rely on science.  You can believe anything you want about the shape of the world, and the rest of us will continue to fly your ignorant ass around the world in airplanes.

Good questions, Sol, and I really donít have any people in my life who I would truly classify as friends who are what I think you would classify as ďhardline Christians.Ē I have some family in that category, and certainly acquaintances, and I am not saying that they are inherently bad people. I just donít think I could have a satisfying real friendship with them, since for me that requires some degree of intellectual compatibility. I also do separate out the willfully ignorant from the merely ignorant.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2018, 12:25:13 PM »
Do you honestly believe that any of your friends actually believe that the Earth is flat?

I hate to break it to you, but they are probably pulling your leg.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2018, 06:19:04 PM »
Do you honestly believe that any of your friends actually believe that the Earth is flat?

I hate to break it to you, but they are probably pulling your leg.


Was this whole thread a joke? 

sol

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2018, 06:20:50 PM »
Do you honestly believe that any of your friends actually believe that the Earth is flat?

I hate to break it to you, but they are probably pulling your leg.


Was this whole thread a joke?

I don't think so.  The whole flat earth problem has been getting way too much publicity recently, mostly from very rich celebrity athletes with limited amounts of education.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 04:55:56 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

MasterStache

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2018, 05:05:19 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

Ehhh you can find a way to make money off of people convincing them of all sorts of nonsense. Sometimes the motivation is power and control. You can find that often in cults. Money is a big thing in religion. Ever seen Joel Osteen's house?

nereo

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 05:45:23 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

Because the lizardpeople living under the disk are controlling our leaders :-P

ok... I wrote that as a a joke but as I did it occurred to me that I'm probably pretty close to the truth.  Conspiracy-theorists (regardless of the conspiracy being discussed) have a near-universal belief that 'the truth' is being kept from us by those in power in some scheme to keep themselves in power and keep us (the 'sheeple') powerless. But the reasons why those in power would create and preserve this conspiracy and the political advantage they might gain from this are less important, and often difficult to rationalize.


e34bb098

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 07:18:04 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

What Iíve heard is that:

1. The Bible teaches the earth is flat.
2. The shadowy elite/globalists donít want people to believe in the Bible.
3. Therefore they teach that the earth is round so that people think the Bible is wrong.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 07:49:13 AM »
How do y'all talk to your flat earth friends?
I'm not friends with people who are stupid or insane.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2018, 08:02:41 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

What Iíve heard is that:

1. The Bible teaches the earth is flat.
2. The shadowy elite/globalists donít want people to believe in the Bible.
3. Therefore they teach that the earth is round so that people think the Bible is wrong.
Where does the Bible say the earth is flat? (It's not been part of the Church of England teachings that I've been exposed to.)

sol

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2018, 08:44:49 AM »
Where does the Bible say the earth is flat? (It's not been part of the Church of England teachings that I've been exposed to.)

If you read it literally, the bible says all kinds of silly things that modern churches conveniently overlook.  Not only is the Earth flat, but it doesn't move (hence the problems with Copernicus) and was created in three days (before the stars in the sky).

While factually incorrect, this is one of the least objectionable passages in the bible IMO.  At least it doesn't advocate forced marriage for rape victims, or slavery, or murdering your enemy's children.  But some churches are quite adept at explaining away these little problems and trying to find the "underlying truth" in scripture.  You know, like how abortion is an unforgivable sin and god hates fags.  The point of which is just to say that it's an old text, written in a different time, by people with their own cultural biases just like we all have our own cultural biases.  I don't think you can take it very literally, and I certainly don't look to it for moral guidance, but it's still an important part of our cultural history and collective mythology.  I think people should read the bible (warts and all) just like they should read Shakespeare, because of the huge influence these works have had on every facet of American life. 

But if you believe that the Earth is flat, in my mind it's only a tiny step from there to believing in Macbeth's witches or Jesus's miracles.  The supernatural elements are there for dramatic impact, and aren't to be taken literally.  The danger of the flat-earthers is that they don't recognize the magic required in their beliefs, and so can go about their daily lives laughing at people who believe in ghosts and telling themselves that they are the rational ones because of the evidence of their own eyes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2018, 08:45:39 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

What Iíve heard is that:

1. The Bible teaches the earth is flat.
2. The shadowy elite/globalists donít want people to believe in the Bible.
3. Therefore they teach that the earth is round so that people think the Bible is wrong.
Where does the Bible say the earth is flat? (It's not been part of the Church of England teachings that I've been exposed to.)

There's some kinda sketchy Biblical support depending on how you read it.

Revelation 7:1, and 20:7-8 as well as Isaiah 11:12 all talk about the four corners of the Earth (no corners on a sphere).  There's pretty regular usage of 'ends of the Earth' (no end of the Earth on a sphere).  Daniel 4:11 and Daniel 4:20 talk about a giant tree from which you can see the whole of the Earth (not possible if the Earth was a sphere).  Matthew 4:8 has a similar thing going on . . . Jesus is taken to the top of a mountain where he can see the entire Earth.

Like I said, it's pretty sketchy support.  :P

OccamsPhaco

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2018, 09:20:08 AM »
I once broke up with an otherwise fantastic girl after I found out she was anti-vaccine and couldn't get her to see reason. So I'm probably not the best person to ask.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2018, 09:41:47 AM »
The most mysterious thing about the whole flat Earth phenomenon to me is... If true, why would there be a conspiracy in the first place?

I can imagine the motivations behind conspiracies such as 9/11 being an inside job, the moon landings being fake, or even the royal family being lizards. I can see how the conspirators might leverage some kind of money or power by keeping the masses in the dark.

But, assume that the Earth was indeed flat: Who would profit from convincing us that it was spherical? Why would you go through the effort to lie about this?

If I had a friend who believed that the Earth was flat, this is what I'd ask them.

What Iíve heard is that:

1. The Bible teaches the earth is flat.
2. The shadowy elite/globalists donít want people to believe in the Bible.
3. Therefore they teach that the earth is round so that people think the Bible is wrong.
Where does the Bible say the earth is flat? (It's not been part of the Church of England teachings that I've been exposed to.)

There's some kinda sketchy Biblical support depending on how you read it.

Revelation 7:1, and 20:7-8 as well as Isaiah 11:12 all talk about the four corners of the Earth (no corners on a sphere).  There's pretty regular usage of 'ends of the Earth' (no end of the Earth on a sphere).  Daniel 4:11 and Daniel 4:20 talk about a giant tree from which you can see the whole of the Earth (not possible if the Earth was a sphere).  Matthew 4:8 has a similar thing going on . . . Jesus is taken to the top of a mountain where he can see the entire Earth.

Like I said, it's pretty sketchy support.  :P

As someone who was raised christian I can say there's zero emphasis on the shape of the earth in any of the scriptures. Sure, maybe it was mentioned abstractly in various passages, but it's not a focus or a teaching.  Early astronomers ran into controversy with the church not because they advocated a spherical earth (that was widely accepted long before Copernicus) - but because it implied the earth was not the center of the universe and therefor not the epicenter of God's creation.  At my catholic private elementary school I was taught about the nine planets (yes, this was pre-Pluto's demotion) and a spheroid earth and all that. Those scientific facts are not considered at odds with the bible, at least for Catholicism.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2018, 10:40:41 AM »
In the Venn diagram of people who believe the earth is flat and people I categorize as friends, the circles do not touch.

This.  Coming up with ways to relate to friends who believe the earth is flat is just not something I am concerned about as it would never happen that I would be friends with such a person.  If I found out an acquaintance believed in flat earth, and if I had to be around them in the future, I would just avoid the subject in the same way that I avoid the whole god/religion thing.  Anyone who believes in a flat earth in spite of the readily available evidence to the contrary meets my definition of a zealot, and I am not inclined to spending energy on lost causes. 

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2018, 10:52:19 AM »
Not long ago a very long term (30+ years) and otherwise intelligent friend revealed in casual conversation that they think the moon landings were faked, and I was unable to convince them otherwise.  I diagnose too much internet and too little intellectual endeavour.  It's easy enough to avoid the topic in general conversation, so do I lose a friendship that long because of it?  I don't think so, even though a certain amount of respect has gone.

Glenstache

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2018, 11:34:17 AM »
Wow, so many replies. Thanks all. The trouble I had is that THEY bring it up sometimes unprompted. :(

In this case change the subject or use the Socratic method.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2018, 09:37:06 PM »
I'm with Sol that people believing the earth is flat is not a material problem, in practice, but I do think it is a symptom of a deeper underlying problem regarding trust in institutions. If you watch enough flat earth videos (believe me, I have recently out of sheer befuddlement over the nature of the psychosis), the underlying common theme is parallel to those that helped get Trump elected: a skepticism with respect to authority and institutions in general and various Enlightenment-era ideas in particular.

A secondary effect of watching such videos is I get the impression most adherents to flat earth theories do not really believe it; rather, they merely want to believe in something that signals their opposition to the globalist status-quo (pun-intended).

Incidentally, the question of "why" is easily answered: the most common responses are 1) because it justifies NASA's "exorbitant" budget which is used for various nefarious Illuminati schemes; 2) there is a land beyond Antarctic ice-wall that the (((bankers))) are hiding for themselves; and 3) because the Bible

sol

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2018, 10:27:28 PM »
2) there is a land beyond Antarctic ice-wall that the (((bankers))) are hiding for themselves;

I've been behind the Antarctic ice wall.  There is just more ice. 

I wonder what a flat-earther would think if they stood at the pole and watched the sun go around in a big circle, instead of overhead.  Think their own eyes would be sufficiently convincing?  In fact now that I think about it, how does a flat-earther make sense of the fact that summer days are longer in Minnesota than they are in Florida?  That doesn't make any sense at all unless the world is round.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2018, 10:36:13 PM »
2) there is a land beyond Antarctic ice-wall that the (((bankers))) are hiding for themselves;

I've been behind the Antarctic ice wall.  There is just more ice. 

I wonder what a flat-earther would think if they stood at the pole and watched the sun go around in a big circle, instead of overhead.  Think their own eyes would be sufficiently convincing?  In fact now that I think about it, how does a flat-earther make sense of the fact that summer days are longer in Minnesota than they are in Florida?  That doesn't make any sense at all unless the world is round.
Flat earth is unfalsifiable, so believe me when there are (insane) answers to all of your concerns!

The sun circles 3000 miles above the flat earth in a spiral, ranging from directly over the tropic of Cancer to the tropic of Capricorn in accordance with the seasons. Any anomaly you perceive in length of day beyond that are caused by an invisible magical lampshade over the sun and atmospheric diffraction. The sun is 32 miles in diameter. If you are wondering why such a sun doesn't change in angular size throughout the day, it is because of the aforementioned diffraction. If you are wondering how a sun sets on a flat earth, that is explained via diffraction again, as well as a proper understanding of "vanishing point perspective".

sol

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2018, 10:44:34 PM »
The sun circles 3000 miles above the flat earth in a spiral, ranging from directly over the tropic of Cancer to the tropic of Capricorn in accordance with the seasons. Any anomaly you perceive in length of day beyond that are caused by an invisible magical lampshade over the sun and atmospheric diffraction. The sun is 32 miles in diameter. If you are wondering why such a sun doesn't change in angular size throughout the day, it is because of the aforementioned diffraction. If you are wondering how a sun sets on a flat earth, that is explained via diffraction again, as well as a proper understanding of "vanishing point perspective".

It's turtles all the way down!

gooki

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2018, 12:18:14 AM »
Do flat earthers believe the moon is flat?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2018, 12:41:48 AM »
Do flat earthers believe the moon is flat?
The moon is a sphere and is somewhat larger than the sun (up to 70 miles in diameter). Or the moon is flat. Or the moon is a hologram projected onto chemtrails. Similar to the sun, the moon circles above the flat Earth. There are still many things uncertain about the moon, but what's most important is that you keep an open mind about it. An open mind means that you definitely believe that the Earth is not a sphere, because how can water bend and stay stuck to a globe spinning at over 1000 miles at the equator? Gravity is a NASA myth and the reason things fall is due to the effects of density and buoyancy. You can't prove gravity. You can't prove that the Earth is moving.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2018, 01:53:55 AM »
At one of my previous jobs we had a receptionist lady who was a young earth creationist and totally convinced by it. I so much lost respect for her as a person. And it was mostly because she wouldn't listen to any reasonable arguments. It was just no fun talking to her after that. Of course we were still colleagues, but I didn't start a conversation with her for fun. I prefer to talk to science-minded people like myself.

I'm with Sol that people believing the earth is flat is not a material problem, in practice, but I do think it is a symptom of a deeper underlying problem regarding trust in institutions. If you watch enough flat earth videos (believe me, I have recently out of sheer befuddlement over the nature of the psychosis), the underlying common theme is parallel to those that helped get Trump elected: a skepticism with respect to authority and institutions in general and various Enlightenment-era ideas in particular.

A secondary effect of watching such videos is I get the impression most adherents to flat earth theories do not really believe it; rather, they merely want to believe in something that signals their opposition to the globalist status-quo (pun-intended).

Incidentally, the question of "why" is easily answered: the most common responses are 1) because it justifies NASA's "exorbitant" budget which is used for various nefarious Illuminati schemes; 2) there is a land beyond Antarctic ice-wall that the (((bankers))) are hiding for themselves; and 3) because the Bible

I also believe that they "believe" in something so remotely silly just because it is against the status quo. They are just in generally "against" everything. It is not good for a society when so many people start ignoring what the government tells them. We all more or less need to follow the "rules" of society for the society to function well. I mean, it would be strange if schools ended up teaching different facts, like they sometimes do in the US with the creationist theory.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2018, 11:34:49 AM »
I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but here's the thing.  A few years ago, an old friend of mine told me that he believes that there were giants at some point and that archaeologists (maybe?) had hidden the proof, possibly at the end of the 19th Century?  I couldn't even convince myself to go down that rabbithole.

I've known this guy for 20 years and it was out of the blue.  His wife thinks this is nuts.  He's also a 9/11 truther and that really takes up most of his conspiracy brain.  I did check that out as a favor to him, but I thought it was bologna and that the evidence was weak.

However, he's pretty reasonable about other things that impact reality.  It confuses me and troubles me.

e34bb098

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2018, 12:05:48 PM »
I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but here's the thing.  A few years ago, an old friend of mine told me that he believes that there were giants at some point and that archaeologists (maybe?) had hidden the proof, possibly at the end of the 19th Century?  I couldn't even convince myself to go down that rabbithole.

I've known this guy for 20 years and it was out of the blue.  His wife thinks this is nuts.  He's also a 9/11 truther and that really takes up most of his conspiracy brain.  I did check that out as a favor to him, but I thought it was bologna and that the evidence was weak.

However, he's pretty reasonable about other things that impact reality.  It confuses me and troubles me.

The thing is though, his archaeology and 9/11 conspiracies don't impact reality -- or at least not his.  If he believed that Drano was a health food and its life-changing benefits were covered up by Big Water, he'd quickly be out of the gene pool.  But there's no cost to him to believe stupid things.  Same with flat earth, or even anti-vax views -- as long as there's enough herd immunity to keep your family from dying of smallpox, then you are off the hook.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2018, 12:14:00 PM »
I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but here's the thing.  A few years ago, an old friend of mine told me that he believes that there were giants at some point and that archaeologists (maybe?) had hidden the proof, possibly at the end of the 19th Century?  I couldn't even convince myself to go down that rabbithole.

I've known this guy for 20 years and it was out of the blue.  His wife thinks this is nuts.  He's also a 9/11 truther and that really takes up most of his conspiracy brain.  I did check that out as a favor to him, but I thought it was bologna and that the evidence was weak.

However, he's pretty reasonable about other things that impact reality.  It confuses me and troubles me.

The thing is though, his archaeology and 9/11 conspiracies don't impact reality -- or at least not his.  If he believed that Drano was a health food and its life-changing benefits were covered up by Big Water, he'd quickly be out of the gene pool.  But there's no cost to him to believe stupid things.  Same with flat earth, or even anti-vax views -- as long as there's enough herd immunity to keep your family from dying of smallpox, then you are off the hook.
9/11 conspiracy theories have a fairly big overlap with some racist and antisemitic positions that I'm very uncomfortable with, but in his case, I tend to agree with you.

e34bb098

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2018, 12:27:42 PM »
9/11 conspiracy theories have a fairly big overlap with some racist and antisemitic positions that I'm very uncomfortable with, but in his case, I tend to agree with you.

True that -- one of the podcast hosts I listen to says "if you follow any conspiracy theory down deep enough, there's always anti-Semitism at the bottom."

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2018, 12:34:55 PM »
Not long ago a very long term (30+ years) and otherwise intelligent friend revealed in casual conversation that they think the moon landings were faked, and I was unable to convince them otherwise.  I diagnose too much internet and too little intellectual endeavour.  It's easy enough to avoid the topic in general conversation, so do I lose a friendship that long because of it?  I don't think so, even though a certain amount of respect has gone.

20 years but otherwise same here.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2018, 01:04:29 PM »
I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but here's the thing.  A few years ago, an old friend of mine told me that he believes that there were giants at some point and that archaeologists (maybe?) had hidden the proof, possibly at the end of the 19th Century?  I couldn't even convince myself to go down that rabbithole.

I've known this guy for 20 years and it was out of the blue.  His wife thinks this is nuts.  He's also a 9/11 truther and that really takes up most of his conspiracy brain.  I did check that out as a favor to him, but I thought it was bologna and that the evidence was weak.

However, he's pretty reasonable about other things that impact reality.  It confuses me and troubles me.

The thing is though, his archaeology and 9/11 conspiracies don't impact reality -- or at least not his.  If he believed that Drano was a health food and its life-changing benefits were covered up by Big Water, he'd quickly be out of the gene pool.  But there's no cost to him to believe stupid things.  Same with flat earth, or even anti-vax views -- as long as there's enough herd immunity to keep your family from dying of smallpox, then you are off the hook.

I'm not sure I accept the argument that these conspiracy theories don't impact reality just because they don't have a direct negative effect on the person who believes them.
Take climate change as an example. It's been the overwhelming consensus for decades that humans are causing the climate to shift, yet an annoying yet vocal minority refute or doubt the evidence and they have seized an out-sized grip on policy. Largely because of them, even the low-hanging fruit for combating climate change aren't being done, and the speed and magnitude of the changes continues to accelerate.

Ditto for communicable diseases which have vaccines available. Anti-vaxxers fight and subjugate common-sense rules which stop the spread of these diseases, like requiring all school-children to be vaccinated. Now lethal diseases which were virtually absent from developed nations are popping back up and literally killing people.

There's also a much more subtle effect of allowing such ignorance to persist - if its ok to hold opinions which are overwhelmingly refuted by science, then opinion matters more than science when forming laws and policy. "evidence-based" decision making goes by the wayside. To an uncomfortable degree, this shift is already underway.

e34bb098

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2018, 01:17:53 PM »
I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but here's the thing.  A few years ago, an old friend of mine told me that he believes that there were giants at some point and that archaeologists (maybe?) had hidden the proof, possibly at the end of the 19th Century?  I couldn't even convince myself to go down that rabbithole.

I've known this guy for 20 years and it was out of the blue.  His wife thinks this is nuts.  He's also a 9/11 truther and that really takes up most of his conspiracy brain.  I did check that out as a favor to him, but I thought it was bologna and that the evidence was weak.

However, he's pretty reasonable about other things that impact reality.  It confuses me and troubles me.

The thing is though, his archaeology and 9/11 conspiracies don't impact reality -- or at least not his.  If he believed that Drano was a health food and its life-changing benefits were covered up by Big Water, he'd quickly be out of the gene pool.  But there's no cost to him to believe stupid things.  Same with flat earth, or even anti-vax views -- as long as there's enough herd immunity to keep your family from dying of smallpox, then you are off the hook.

I'm not sure I accept the argument that these conspiracy theories don't impact reality just because they don't have a direct negative effect on the person who believes them.
Take climate change as an example. It's been the overwhelming consensus for decades that humans are causing the climate to shift, yet an annoying yet vocal minority refute or doubt the evidence and they have seized an out-sized grip on policy. Largely because of them, even the low-hanging fruit for combating climate change aren't being done, and the speed and magnitude of the changes continues to accelerate.

Ditto for communicable diseases which have vaccines available. Anti-vaxxers fight and subjugate common-sense rules which stop the spread of these diseases, like requiring all school-children to be vaccinated. Now lethal diseases which were virtually absent from developed nations are popping back up and literally killing people.

There's also a much more subtle effect of allowing such ignorance to persist - if its ok to hold opinions which are overwhelmingly refuted by science, then opinion matters more than science when forming laws and policy. "evidence-based" decision making goes by the wayside. To an uncomfortable degree, this shift is already underway.

Well, you're right of course -- I tried it mitigate the statement with my "at least not his [reality]."  It's an intellectual tragedy of the commons -- the costs of believing stupid things are being externalized onto the rest of society as though it were pollution.  Unfortunately there's not a great solution that I can see.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2018, 01:23:54 PM »
So a funny thing happened in the old troll hovel. We've been avid followers of "Mad"  Mike Harris and his homemade rocketry.  The Troll loves a good debacle where no one actually gets hurt!

Early on our oldest declared him to be stupid. I asked why and was told that the earth wasn't flat. When I asked for proof, all he had was "but that's what they told us in school, so he's stupid if he doesn't know that."

I pressed a little more, but he really couldn't prove to me the earth wasn't flat. Needless to say, we went to the internet, experiments were performed, Trigonometry was invoked until my character was disparaged, ect. But, it was a good reminder how terrible and generally lacking in experimentation the science education most people have received is.

That leaves us in a place where your on paper argument is just as good as my on paper argument!


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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2018, 02:29:15 PM »
So a funny thing happened in the old troll hovel. We've been avid followers of "Mad"  Mike Harris and his homemade rocketry.  The Troll loves a good debacle where no one actually gets hurt!

Early on our oldest declared him to be stupid. I asked why and was told that the earth wasn't flat. When I asked for proof, all he had was "but that's what they told us in school, so he's stupid if he doesn't know that."

I pressed a little more, but he really couldn't prove to me the earth wasn't flat. Needless to say, we went to the internet, experiments were performed, Trigonometry was invoked until my character was disparaged, ect. But, it was a good reminder how terrible and generally lacking in experimentation the science education most people have received is.

That leaves us in a place where your on paper argument is just as good as my on paper argument!

First off, I applaud you for taking your little troll down that path of direct experimentation and deeper thinking. I don't think enough parents do that with their children (or trolls).
But more to the point, I don't think that one paper argument is better than another simply because neither has a firm grasp of the subject (in this case... astrophysics maybe?) is being discussed. It's important that we know and understand how science (and knowledge in general) advances, and that we have people who are experts and who constantly test these ideas and report on their results in an open and transparent manner. Then that information gets disseminated to non-experts in a way that someone with a general education can understand.

maybe I mis-understood your point but mine is that everyone does not need to become an expert in every subject as long as we retain a robust use of the scientific method. It's ok to accept what experts say without fully understanding the components.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2018, 04:18:59 PM »
So a funny thing happened in the old troll hovel. We've been avid followers of "Mad"  Mike Harris and his homemade rocketry.  The Troll loves a good debacle where no one actually gets hurt!

Early on our oldest declared him to be stupid. I asked why and was told that the earth wasn't flat. When I asked for proof, all he had was "but that's what they told us in school, so he's stupid if he doesn't know that."

I pressed a little more, but he really couldn't prove to me the earth wasn't flat. Needless to say, we went to the internet, experiments were performed, Trigonometry was invoked until my character was disparaged, ect. But, it was a good reminder how terrible and generally lacking in experimentation the science education most people have received is.

That leaves us in a place where your on paper argument is just as good as my on paper argument!

First off, I applaud you for taking your little troll down that path of direct experimentation and deeper thinking. I don't think enough parents do that with their children (or trolls).
But more to the point, I don't think that one paper argument is better than another simply because neither has a firm grasp of the subject (in this case... astrophysics maybe?) is being discussed. It's important that we know and understand how science (and knowledge in general) advances, and that we have people who are experts and who constantly test these ideas and report on their results in an open and transparent manner. Then that information gets disseminated to non-experts in a way that someone with a general education can understand.

maybe I mis-understood your point but mine is that everyone does not need to become an expert in every subject as long as we retain a robust use of the scientific method. It's ok to accept what experts say without fully understanding the components.

maybe you wrote a better explanation. :) I should have added that in the American education system we teach everyone's opinion is valid.

Lets take fake news. If we (dear god, only for science) watch an hour of the nightly news tonight, I think we can agree that not everything they said was true or really the complete truth.  With the only certainty being untruth, yeah its easy to get to weird conclusions from those news reports. If I automatically give your crack pot ideas consideration because everyone's opinion is valid?  It makes a lot of sense to me how people get to some of these ideas. 




zoltani

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2018, 04:21:37 PM »
LOL

"I donít believe in science.

I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust, but thatís not science, thatís just a formula.

Thereís no difference between science and science fiction."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/03/27/flat-earth-rocket-man-finally-blasts-off-in-homemade-rocket-to-prove-earth-is-flat/#675d85379b6f


Cromacster

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2018, 04:29:06 PM »
LOL

"I donít believe in science.

I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust, but thatís not science, thatís just a formula.

Thereís no difference between science and science fiction."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/03/27/flat-earth-rocket-man-finally-blasts-off-in-homemade-rocket-to-prove-earth-is-flat/#675d85379b6f

Lol I remember reading about that guy.  "I know all about this "science" stuff, but it's not science." bahahahaha

I was planning to host a watch party for his original launch before it was cancelled, but I believe he did finally end up launching his rocket.

zoltani

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2018, 04:33:39 PM »
LOL

"I donít believe in science.

I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust, but thatís not science, thatís just a formula.

Thereís no difference between science and science fiction."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/03/27/flat-earth-rocket-man-finally-blasts-off-in-homemade-rocket-to-prove-earth-is-flat/#675d85379b6f

Lol I remember reading about that guy.  "I know all about this "science" stuff, but it's not science." bahahahaha

I was planning to host a watch party for his original launch before it was cancelled, but I believe he did finally end up launching his rocket.

I didn't even know he launched just a couple hours away from me, sad I missed it! I actually drove right through there friday, so close to witnessing this wonderful piece of history.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2018, 04:48:48 PM »
credit where credit's due - against all odds Mike shot himself over a thousand feet in the air with a steam-powered rocket, effetively BASE jumped out of his homemade contraption and didn't seriously hurt himself.

It's done nothing to address the question whether the earth if flat (apparently that will come in phase 2 & 3) but he did build and launch himself really high in a rocket.

zoltani

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2018, 05:08:48 PM »
I agree, it is pretty badass either way.

EricL

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2018, 05:40:53 PM »
I don't associate with anyone that willfully stupid.  It makes a lot of things easier in the end.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2018, 05:43:52 PM »
It's done nothing to address the question whether the earth if flat (apparently that will come in phase 2 & 3) but he did build and launch himself really high in a rocket.

Isn't this the guy who has been a rocket enthusiast his entire life, and just recently embraced the flat-earth idea because they offered to pay for his rocket launches?  People will say all kinds of stupid things for money, even when they know it's a lie.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2018, 06:34:36 PM »
It's done nothing to address the question whether the earth if flat (apparently that will come in phase 2 & 3) but he did build and launch himself really high in a rocket.

Isn't this the guy who has been a rocket enthusiast his entire life, and just recently embraced the flat-earth idea because they offered to pay for his rocket launches?  People will say all kinds of stupid things for money, even when they know it's a lie.
yup.  He swears he's a flat-earth convert now, but i have my doubts.
I'm just have to begrudgingly respect anyone that puts so much of their life (literally, in this case) into a complex task and carry it through.  It's too bad he can't be doing something constructive with this tenacity.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2018, 06:37:59 PM »
It's done nothing to address the question whether the earth if flat (apparently that will come in phase 2 & 3) but he did build and launch himself really high in a rocket.

Isn't this the guy who has been a rocket enthusiast his entire life, and just recently embraced the flat-earth idea because they offered to pay for his rocket launches?  People will say all kinds of stupid things for money, even when they know it's a lie.

Politicians are experts at that.

Forever Wednesday

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2018, 02:07:50 AM »
Quote
...operated surprisingly smoothly given it was homemade and built on a very small budget. The rocket was built using scrap metal and estimates indicate the final cost to be about $20,000.

Not only did he build a rocket, but a Mustachian one at that!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 02:09:30 AM by Forever Wednesday »

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2018, 10:28:45 AM »
Quote
...operated surprisingly smoothly given it was homemade and built on a very small budget. The rocket was built using scrap metal and estimates indicate the final cost to be about $20,000.

Not only did he build a rocket, but a Mustachian one at that!

But he only made it 1000 ft up. For a few hundred bucks he could have taken a commercial flight and make it to 36,000 ft. I would say on a $/ft basis, not so mustachian.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2018, 10:41:30 AM »
Quote
...operated surprisingly smoothly given it was homemade and built on a very small budget. The rocket was built using scrap metal and estimates indicate the final cost to be about $20,000.

Not only did he build a rocket, but a Mustachian one at that!

But he only made it 1000 ft up. For a few hundred bucks he could have taken a commercial flight and make it to 36,000 ft. I would say on a $/ft basis, not so mustachian.

That's why i said his methodology didn't do much to address his goals (though it hsould be noted that he's talked about this as 'phase 1' in a 3 part project, where he intends go several miles up, potentially above commercial jetliners' cruising altitudes (though I'd betting the FAA won't ever permit such a launch).

If he addressed his goal directly and his aim were to get as high a vantage point to view ('with my own eyes!') the curvature of the earth it seems he should just follow in the footsteps of Felix Baumgartner - the guy who rode a weather-balloon to 39km (about 127,000 feet, roughly 4x higher than a jetliner) as a Red Bull publicity stunt in 2012. But since someone's already done it, that kind of turns off the spotlight and the thrill of doing something 'first'.  Which seems to be what this is really about.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2018, 04:32:08 PM »
For the sake of argument, I just flew back from America to Japan. If the earth is flat, how did I get back? I wasn't awake the entire time, but I'm relatively certain I didn't cross the entirety of North America, the Atlantic Ocean, and Eurasia to get there.

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2018, 04:57:49 PM »
For the sake of argument, I just flew back from America to Japan. If the earth is flat, how did I get back? I wasn't awake the entire time, but I'm relatively certain I didn't cross the entirety of North America, the Atlantic Ocean, and Eurasia to get there.
The answer would be that you went in a circle.  Instead of a spheroid, flat-earthers claim that earth is a disk.  When you think you are flying in a straight line and going 'around the world' what's really happening (according to them) is that you are going in a circle, like around the rim of a dinner plate. In other words, your entire trip you were turning slightly in one direction.

yeah, it makes your head spin the more critically you think about it.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Talking To Flat Earth Friends
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2018, 05:27:04 PM »
For the sake of argument, I just flew back from America to Japan. If the earth is flat, how did I get back? I wasn't awake the entire time, but I'm relatively certain I didn't cross the entirety of North America, the Atlantic Ocean, and Eurasia to get there.

How Euro-centric your worldview is!  Hawaii must the center of the disk, so you just had to fly from near one edge to the other

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=sfo-Ito-nrt&MS=wls&MP=o&MC=Ito&DU=mi
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 05:38:08 PM by markbike528CBX »