Talk to me about Puzder & immigration reform

[Poundwise]

I know very little about this guy.  Apparently people on the left and the right have misgivings about him, for different reasons. I'm feeling lazy and unwilling to wade through all the info out there.

So I gather that unions don't like him because he is against raising the minimum wage, whereas conservatives don't like him because he seems to favor bringing in immigrant workers.

Also, all this wall & border stuff, amnesty and Dreamers nonsense is really just a kludge.  I agree that people should not start off their time in the US by breaking the law, but on the other hand my kids and I have become good friends with several illegal immigrants from different countries, and the ones I know are very hard working folks who add value.

What would be the correct solution?  I remember in the days of George W. there was proposed a guest worker program, that was very unpopular and shot down by unions.   And I can see both sides of the issue. We don't want huge numbers of people coming in and working for peanuts, making it harder for citizens to find good jobs.  On the other hand, they're doing it anyway so we might as well make it easier to vet them, keep tabs on them, and tax employers.  How about  allowing more immigrants come in and become citizens?  What's the downside to that?

[prognastat]

I know very little about this guy.  Apparently people on the left and the right have misgivings about him, for different reasons. I'm feeling lazy and unwilling to wade through all the info out there.

So I gather that unions don't like him because he is against raising the minimum wage, whereas conservatives don't like him because he seems to favor bringing in immigrant workers.

Also, all this wall & border stuff, amnesty and Dreamers nonsense is really just a kludge.  I agree that people should not start off their time in the US by breaking the law, but on the other hand my kids and I have become good friends with several illegal immigrants from different countries, and the ones I know are very hard working folks who add value.

What would be the correct solution?  I remember in the days of George W. there was proposed a guest worker program, that was very unpopular and shot down by unions.   And I can see both sides of the issue. We don't want huge numbers of people coming in and working for peanuts, making it harder for citizens to find good jobs.  On the other hand, they're doing it anyway so we might as well make it easier to vet them, keep tabs on them, and tax employers.  How about  allowing more immigrants come in and become citizens?  What's the downside to that?

He is a corporatist. He is against a minimum wage raise since this will cost companies more money/lower profits and he is for more immigrant workers since more people vying for the same amount of jobs effectively suppresses wages which is also good for companies.

[Poundwise]

Thanks, prognastat. Anyway, never mind! I guess a discussion of Puzder is moot since he has withdrawn.

Still interested to see what people think a real solution to the immigration/labor problem looks like.

[Kris]

Thanks, prognastat. Anyway, never mind! I guess a discussion of Puzder is moot since he has withdrawn.

Still interested to see what people think a real solution to the immigration/labor problem looks like.

Honestly, I think the absolute simplest and best solution right now is to implement one simple rule: A hefty fine, that is enforced, for any business that is found to be using undocumented laborers. Nothing else other than what we are already doing.

Do that one thing, and nothing else, for five years, and see what happens. Then examine the results, and go from there.

[Metric Mouse]

Thanks, prognastat. Anyway, never mind! I guess a discussion of Puzder is moot since he has withdrawn.

Still interested to see what people think a real solution to the immigration/labor problem looks like.

Honestly, I think the absolute simplest and best solution right now is to implement one simple rule: A hefty fine, that is enforced, for any business that is found to be using undocumented laborers. Nothing else other than what we are already doing.

Do that one thing, and nothing else, for five years, and see what happens. Then examine the results, and go from there.

This is one way.

Another would be to form pathway for these people to no longer be undocumented. Allow them to come out from the shadows and ensure their wages are taxed to contribute to the greater good.

[Poundwise]

Okay now, how about Acosta? Doesn't seem quite so bad... at least he has experience.

I see a couple of issues with Kris's solution. First, it might be hard to enforce. Second, it would be hard on the undocumented immigrants.  Many of them don't have the money to just up roots and leave, now that they're here... all you get is a bunch of unemployed, poor immigrants hanging around, and that probably would not be a good situation.  I guess ultimately it would lead to fewer immigrants coming, and a bunch leaving, though.

In the long term, suppose that fining employers works anyway, they stop hiring illegals, and many undocumented immigrants leave.  Then, who will pick fruit, do residential construction, etc.? Maybe  domestic workers will step in if the jobs pay well enough, but the cost of living will go up for sure. I don't think I'd have an issue with that personally, but I don't live on the edge.

How about giving immigrants, legal and illegal, a speedier, broader road to citizenship? One big issue here is political.  I would guess that the GOP has not wanted this because of the higher likelihood that the new citizens would vote Democrat. But what if the GOP were the party that granted them citizenship?

Also, of course cost of living would go up again, and there would be more competition for skilled jobs as the new workforce became eligible for better jobs.  Argh. Though as Metric Mouse points out, at least our tax base would grow.

Anyway if somebody can point me to some good discussions of possible solutions, I'd be interested.

[Dave1442397]

I would guess that the GOP has not wanted this because of the higher likelihood that the new citizens would vote Democrat. But what if the GOP were the party that granted them citizenship?

As an immigrant who came to the country at age 24, I can tell you that when I registered to vote, I picked Independent, and I vote based on how I think politicians will handle issues that interest me, not what party they belong to.

As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't a party that granted me citizenship, it was a country (and I'm happy to be here!).

[trollwithamustache]

well, what do you define the immigration problem as? I'll throw out some:

Illegal Mexicans crossing the border and sucking up social services.
or,illegal Mexicans crossing the border and making all our cheap food.
or, maybe just the drug gangs that come with the illegal Mexicans.
Terrorists?
Syrian refugees?
neopostliberalhomogeneousists?

Personally, I'm more concerned about how hard it is for the guy with an M.S. in engineering from a US school  to get papers to stay.

[Kris]

Okay now, how about Acosta? Doesn't seem quite so bad... at least he has experience.

I see a couple of issues with Kris's solution. First, it might be hard to enforce. Second, it would be hard on the undocumented immigrants.  Many of them don't have the money to just up roots and leave, now that they're here... all you get is a bunch of unemployed, poor immigrants hanging around, and that probably would not be a good situation.  I guess ultimately it would lead to fewer immigrants coming, and a bunch leaving, though.

In the long term, suppose that fining employers works anyway, they stop hiring illegals, and many undocumented immigrants leave.  Then, who will pick fruit, do residential construction, etc.? Maybe  domestic workers will step in if the jobs pay well enough, but the cost of living will go up for sure. I don't think I'd have an issue with that personally, but I don't live on the edge.

How about giving immigrants, legal and illegal, a speedier, broader road to citizenship? One big issue here is political.  I would guess that the GOP has not wanted this because of the higher likelihood that the new citizens would vote Democrat. But what if the GOP were the party that granted them citizenship?

Also, of course cost of living would go up again, and there would be more competition for skilled jobs as the new workforce became eligible for better jobs.  Argh. Though as Metric Mouse points out, at least our tax base would grow.

Anyway if somebody can point me to some good discussions of possible solutions, I'd be interested.

I agree with you, in a lot of ways.

As far as enforcement goes, not so hard, if you take the money business have to pay in fines, and put it back in the program to hire more enforcement. Done correctly, the program could basically pay for itself.

And yes, on an individual level, it will/would be very rough on undocumented immigrants who have been here awhile, and their families. I don't exactly have an answer for that. I mean, I have an answer that I would support, but the right is firmly against amnesty for the most part.

And I completely agree with the "who will do these jobs?" question. Yes, the cost of living will go up. Yes, it's gonna be really hard to find people to do the jobs, and probably employers are going to have to start paying more and improving working conditions if they want employees.

My point in saying this is what I would like to see, is this: it is the single thing you could do that would almost definitely slow or even virtually halt illegal immigration. And, I would suspect, it would usher in a "be careful what you wish for" wakeup call to many folks who call for a hard line on immigration. After five years of strictly enforcing this one rule, my guess is that the consequences of what people thought they wanted would likely force a conversation on immigration that might even be realistic, and rational. (I mean, relatively... I'm not completely deluded.) I feel like it might be the one chance we would have to escape the partisan rhetoric and really get down to business on creating a good, beneficial immigration policy for this country.

[Metric Mouse]

Okay now, how about Acosta? Doesn't seem quite so bad... at least he has experience.

I see a couple of issues with Kris's solution. First, it might be hard to enforce. Second, it would be hard on the undocumented immigrants.  Many of them don't have the money to just up roots and leave, now that they're here... all you get is a bunch of unemployed, poor immigrants hanging around, and that probably would not be a good situation.  I guess ultimately it would lead to fewer immigrants coming, and a bunch leaving, though.

In the long term, suppose that fining employers works anyway, they stop hiring illegals, and many undocumented immigrants leave.  Then, who will pick fruit, do residential construction, etc.? Maybe  domestic workers will step in if the jobs pay well enough, but the cost of living will go up for sure. I don't think I'd have an issue with that personally, but I don't live on the edge.

How about giving immigrants, legal and illegal, a speedier, broader road to citizenship? One big issue here is political.  I would guess that the GOP has not wanted this because of the higher likelihood that the new citizens would vote Democrat. But what if the GOP were the party that granted them citizenship?

Also, of course cost of living would go up again, and there would be more competition for skilled jobs as the new workforce became eligible for better jobs.  Argh. Though as Metric Mouse points out, at least our tax base would grow.

Anyway if somebody can point me to some good discussions of possible solutions, I'd be interested.

I see no problem with cost of living going up if it means that these marginalized people will contribute to the tax base and will be paid at least minimum wage. I see no need for amnesty - just a pathway to legal permanent resident status. Commit a crime during that process, get deported. I don't know that citizenship is necessary either - we already have pathways to citizenship, which should be held to a higher bar than legal documented resident.