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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: craiglepaige on September 24, 2017, 07:12:47 PM

Title: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 24, 2017, 07:12:47 PM
I'll be the first to say that I don't care one flying squirrel about football. If the NFL was to completely disappear tomorrow it wouldn't even register in my everyday life. But throughout the day I had friends comment via text messages/social media as the football games were getting started and the "take a knee" protests were happening, being magnified by Trump's comments/tweets from Friday.

Well some of them are upset at the players for turning a pastime into a political agenda and disrespecting the flag/vets. Others understand where the players are coming from. And finally others are upset at Trump for his "son of a bitch" comment which only added fuel to the fire and it's escalating the situation.

After thinking about it throughout the day and reading all the online comments, I'm not sure if the "take a knee" protest is the correct one, meaning if it will ever benefit the people it's supposed to. I understand bringing attention to a problem, in this case police brutality(as it first began) but it seems now it's a personal attack on Trump for what he said. This situation is definitely a fiery one and can really divide a population.

What do fellow members think of this ordeal?


PS - Can we keep this conversation civil?

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Sibley on September 24, 2017, 07:30:22 PM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 24, 2017, 07:54:52 PM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.


In my opinion, the kneeling during the anthem actually pays respect to the vets who fought for their(our) freedom.  I would be upset if they were turning their backs to the flag or the fans, but that's not how it started.

Now it's a bit more complicated because you have the whole team not walking out onto the field till after the anthem is finished. In my opinion, that's a bit more of a slap on the face to the fans. Hard to explain how/why I see it this way. Will need to sleep on it.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 05:13:29 AM
I'll preface this this with I am a vet myself. And have talked to many fellow vets about this. Anecdotal, but the only folks who appear to be upset are non-vets. Seems rather ironic to me.

Anyways I am all for folks exercising their free speech rights. Especially in a peaceful non-violent manner bringing attention to obvious injustices, inequality and racism that still exist in this country. Trump's response was horrendous, calling black athletes SOB's. He has now called out black athletes more than white supremacist and Putin himself. For all the bad things the NFL has done over the years, they finally got something right. And I applaud all of them for what they did.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Frankies Girl on September 25, 2017, 05:42:50 AM
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?

Taking a knee isn't disrespecting anyone or anything. It is a sign of peaceful protest.

I don't see how veterans/military personnel should feel insulted or disrespected by this action. They serve to protect the nation and allow us our freedoms to have things like peaceful protests. This is one of the very things military are supposed to be there for. There is nothing more patriotic and American than peaceful protest for social injustice. Those that decry it are usually the ones that support the injustice - they are part of the problem.

The athletes are not cursing anyone out, spitting on or desecrating anything or otherwise causing any harm or attacking anyone. They are objecting by non-participation, period. In contrast, they have been vilified, called horrible names, been threatened both verbally, bodily, and even with the threat of losing their livelihood for taking a stand/drawing attention to a cause they hold dear. They are saying (in my opinion anyway) "This is not the America that I want for myself, my family, or my community. We can be better than this. We have to be better than this."

Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

I've seen this new breed of "patriots" spouting off death threats on the local news sites. Hopes that the athletes' families are killed, raped, tortured. Cursing, racial slurs, the idea that every one that was harrassed, arrested, beaten, died, whatever deserved it... this, THIS is the thing I find completely disrespectful and horrifying and unpatriotic. All of this for kneeling, silently before a game, to draw attention to the rise of violence perpetrated by government agencies against a minority group.

Who is the most disrespectful and unpatriotic? Those that are peacefully protesting a wrong, or those that angrily vilify and threaten more violence against those expressing their constitutional right to protest?


“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
― George Santayana 



Just read this article and very much agree with his writing: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic.html
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dicey on September 25, 2017, 06:05:35 AM
Anyone remember this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

It caused more of an uproar, and what did it change?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 25, 2017, 06:29:54 AM
It seems like the President’s tweets to get NFL players to stop kneeling for the anthem is as effective as the tweets to get North Korea to stop firing missiles. Also, what is the “correct” way to protest as long as it is peaceful?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: partgypsy on September 25, 2017, 06:33:12 AM
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?

Taking a knee isn't disrespecting anyone or anything. It is a sign of peaceful protest.

I don't see how veterans/military personnel should feel insulted or disrespected by this action. They serve to protect the nation and allow us our freedoms to have things like peaceful protests. This is one of the very things military are supposed to be there for. There is nothing more patriotic and American than peaceful protest for social injustice. Those that decry it are usually the ones that support the injustice - they are part of the problem.

The athletes are not cursing anyone out, spitting on or desecrating anything or otherwise causing any harm or attacking anyone. They are objecting by non-participation, period. In contrast, they have been vilified, called horrible names, been threatened both verbally, bodily, and even with the threat of losing their livelihood for taking a stand/drawing attention to a cause they hold dear. They are saying (in my opinion anyway) "This is not the America that I want for myself, my family, or my community. We can be better than this. We have to be better than this."

Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

I've seen this new breed of "patriots" spouting off death threats on the local news sites. Hopes that the athletes' families are killed, raped, tortured. Cursing, racial slurs, the idea that every one that was harrassed, arrested, beaten, died, whatever deserved it... this, THIS is the thing I find completely disrespectful and horrifying and unpatriotic. All of this for kneeling, silently before a game, to draw attention to the rise of violence perpetrated by government agencies against a minority group.

Who is the most disrespectful and unpatriotic? Those that are peacefully protesting a wrong, or those that angrily vilify and threaten more violence against those expressing their constitutional right to protest?


“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
― George Santayana 



Just read this article and very much agree with his writing: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic.html

Amen. I agree with what you wrote. It is a peaceful, respectful way of protesting systemic violence in this country. If even admired, successful African American athletes cannot peacefully comment on this kind of thing without threats, maybe we should take a deeper look at what is wrong with our country.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 06:39:40 AM
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?


If this was asked for me, I didn't come to that conclusion. People within my group message and social media did.  I don't see eye to eye with them and voiced my opinion on the matter, saying the same I did here. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 06:43:39 AM
a few of my thoughts:

when Roger Goodell is the on the side of protestors and disconformity you really need to question the position of the 'other' side.

Its in the fundamental nature of our country to protect free speech and allow peaceful protests.  As Sibley said, kneeling in most other contexts is a sign of reverence and submission. Here it is a sign of protest because the norm is to stand at attention, and so these acts were a sign of peaceful ~ and respectful ~ protest.

What really irritates me is DJT's challenges that new focus on protecting players is somehow a bad thing.  This is an issue that the players themselves have been fighting the league for.  Wanting to go back to the 'good ol' days' when players bashed themselves into brain damage and lifelong disabilities is the height of hubris. Fight you peons, you exist for my entertainment!   The optics are even worse when you consider that this is an old, white, priviliged billionaire telling young black men that their concerns over their long term health is ruining his entertainment.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 25, 2017, 06:45:57 AM
Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

"Love it or leave it" was pretty popular during the Vietnam War.  So patriotism being whatever a particular vocal group defines it as is nothing new.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 06:46:44 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 07:05:36 AM
patriotism ≠ nationalism.

Many conflate the two.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on September 25, 2017, 07:19:26 AM
This weekend just furthers my belief that things are going to get a whole hell of a lot worse before they get better.

Elected officials shouldn't be interfering or influencing the employment decisions of private actors. That's probably my top value here. It's up to the NFL to decide who they want to employ and what values they want to communicate. I and apparently a lot of Americans think it's a disrespectful form of protest, and the NFL should prohibit it (and they already do per league rules to my understanding). If they don't want to, whatever. They are professional athletes doing something I think is stupid, not criminals.

You absolutely should not be sending death threats to anyone, under any circumstance, ever. And definitely not to fellow American citizens. WTF is wrong with you?

But, yeah, Colin Kaepernick decided to be cute and wear a Fidel Castro shirt to a press conference. Might as well show up to Game Day in a "I <3 Kim Jong Un" shirt.  I'm not going to lose any sleep over him not getting signed. He's got enough money to live a modest life forever.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 25, 2017, 07:30:20 AM
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Knapptyme on September 25, 2017, 07:31:55 AM
It's both great and frustrating that this is newsworthy. The anthem protests are getting a lot of attention. The injustices are passively mentioned. Peaceful protests, civil disobedience, and boycotting are acceptable non-violent means to try and make a statement or take a stance. I would like to know what discussion needs to take place, or what action needs to happen, for the people on opposite sides of this to come together. There are plenty of us in the middle who either don't care or are really unaffected by this circus yet still have an opinion of some sort.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Chesleygirl on September 25, 2017, 07:43:52 AM
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Khaetra on September 25, 2017, 07:52:15 AM
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.

Toque.

I agree and it is also very unpatriotic to tell people how to protest (45 basically tweeted 'arm-locking good, kneeling bad.).  I fully support their decision to kneel, but it makes me both sad and angry that instead of taking the steps to fix the reasons about why they are kneeling people would rather complain about them kneeling.  Forced Patriotism is not what this Country stands for.

An interesting note: teams were never actually on the field as a whole during the Anthem until 2009, around the time when the DoD decided to pay the NFL big bucks for Patriotic displays.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 07:57:04 AM
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.
I agree.  I'd extend this to all modern professional sports. In reality they are millionaires who play for a particular team because either i) they were drafted/signed per league rules of ii) they were offered the most money to play there. Without a doubt they are all physically talented but certainly (IMO) not the epitome of our society. I'm happy when they give some of their money to charity or spend time helping a cause, but IMO that is a lesser act than the founders and employees of NFPs that spend their entire working lives supporting a social cause.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 07:57:10 AM
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.

Why would you get flamed? Just curious. I lost interest in the NFL when player safety took a backseat to profits, criminals were slapped on the wrist (again because of profits) and PED use ignored. Admittedly I idolized an NFL player growing up. But it wasn't because he was great at football (which he was), but because his work ethic, drive and focus was unlike anything I had ever seen. My kids could care less about professional sports. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 08:10:16 AM
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.
You've hit the nail on the head Toque. I'm wondering if such calls for team owners to fire players isn't already legal, although I'm certain DJT's camp will argue that he was just 'expressing an opinion' about what he'd do and wasn't actually ordering any such thing, just as his comments at rallies weren't actually inciting violence against protestors.

Elected officials shouldn't be interfering or influencing the employment decisions of private actors. That's probably my top value here. It's up to the NFL to decide who they want to employ and what values they want to communicate. I and apparently a lot of Americans think it's a disrespectful form of protest, and the NFL should prohibit it (and they already do per league rules to my understanding). If they don't want to, whatever. They are professional athletes doing something I think is stupid, not criminals.

Yet another way that DJT has taken the GOP's guiding principles* off the rails. A cornerstone of GOP orthodoxy has been free-market enterprise and minimal government interference. Now the WH challenges everyone from Starbucks to the NFL and tries to inflict damages (boycotts, negative publicity).  State's rights and limited government was also a hook to hang their hat on, but now that fallacy has been laid bare as DJT directs the DOJ to go after 'sanctuary cities' and state decisions on gay marriage and marijuana.  The party of fiscal responsibility is (again) drafting the largest tax cuts in history with no plan or hope to do anything but add to the deficit, while upping military outlays during a time of peace.

*yes, to some extent all GOP presidents have bent their parties so-called ideologies at time, but this wholesale abandonment seems entirely in another ballpark.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 08:32:51 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 08:45:49 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette)).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Milizard on September 25, 2017, 08:50:08 AM
I believe that this country should strive for the ideal at the end of the Pledge of Allegiance:  "liberty and justice for all".  I was thinking of avoiding social media over this issue, but I think I will stick to just repeating that phrase.  Perhaps it will turn on a light bulb or 2.
Liberty - freedom to protest
Justice - when dealing with law enforcement
For all - regardless of employment, skin color, etc.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 08:51:52 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.


I was under the impression that business owners are not allowed to dictate how their employees act during non-business time.  Meaning how can the time during which the national anthem is performed be called work time? I thought the driver was working during his time driving the car.

I can see a "clocked" employee, meaning one who has scheduled work hours, be told how to act during those hours. We all have a list of conduct in our work places. But at the same time, my work doesn't play the national anthem before clock in time for me to stand/salute/respect.

The moment you start mixing politics with work, the moment you create a gray area in my opinion. For Petty to say he will fire anyone for protesting during the national anthem seems an over reach on the matter.  Any law members who can clarify? I know work laws are different state to state but how is this legal?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 25, 2017, 08:53:32 AM
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.

I agree about football -- all sports, for that matter. But it's not really about football per se. It's about the institutionalized, forced patriotism of placing the national anthem at the beginning of all sporting events -- and hence, about an individual's right as an American citizen to respectfully and peacefully protest as an alternative expression of one's patriotism.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: v8rx7guy on September 25, 2017, 08:54:03 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 25, 2017, 08:56:24 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Richard Petty:
 “Anybody that don’t stand up for the anthem ought to be out of the country. Period. What got ’em where they’re at? The United States.”

Even if it was just him saying he would fire anyone who knelt, just because he has the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Legal and moral do not always overlap. Also it wouldn't necessarily be firing someone over their actions, it would be firing someone over their opinions. maybe a bit of a gray area, I honestly don't know. Can I be fired for talking politics at work that my boss doesn't like?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 08:57:53 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.
In your eyes, how does that compare with individuals kneeling during the anthem, or indivudals linking arms, or people raising their fists?

How does non-participation relate to active dissonance?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caffeine on September 25, 2017, 09:12:21 AM
They should change the pledge to start with:

Please stand, lock arms, sit, kneel or do whatever you want for the Pledge of Allegiance
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 09:14:03 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette)).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I don't see anything in the law you quoted regarding political displays for employees. 

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 09:14:57 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 09:17:50 AM
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Richard Petty:
 “Anybody that don’t stand up for the anthem ought to be out of the country. Period. What got ’em where they’re at? The United States.”

Even if it was just him saying he would fire anyone who knelt, just because he has the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Legal and moral do not always overlap. Also it wouldn't necessarily be firing someone over their actions, it would be firing someone over their opinions. maybe a bit of a gray area, I honestly don't know. Can I be fired for talking politics at work that my boss doesn't like?

The call to leave the country is over the top.  With regard to his employees, he wouldn't be firing them for inaction.  Kneeling during the anthem is an act of political protest. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 09:21:44 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: v8rx7guy on September 25, 2017, 09:21:52 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.
In your eyes, how does that compare with individuals kneeling during the anthem, or indivudals linking arms, or people raising their fists?

How does non-participation relate to active dissonance?

I'm just making a correction, I don't think it's any different.  But on the other hand, to me, it makes me feel bad for the players on the team who may want to stand and be present for the national anthem, but the "team decision" is not to.  Of course, there are guys like the Steeler's lineman who is a veteran who's whole team decided to stay in the locker room and he chose to come out and stand for the anthem alone...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: saijoe on September 25, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
To me, these guys have a right to kneel if they want to.  And I have a right to be disgusted with them and turn it off.  That's what I want to do, but full disclosure, I watched anyway. 

But I am disgusted with them.  And, I'm disgusted with Trump.  Yes, he did say what I felt.  But I think the President needs to stay above that fray. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 25, 2017, 09:27:38 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...
So my next question would be, so what if the action is disrespectful on a stand alone basis? Is it really disrespectful in terms of protest?

To give you a better idea of what I mean, when a person is hysterical and you slap them to get their attention are you hurting them? yes. Is the goal to hurt them? no.

To put that analogy in terms of protest, when protesters block the street is the goal to congest traffic? When someone goes on hunger strike is the goal to starve to death? No, but these are the only actions that the individual feels they can take which will get the attention of people that can make a change. Even if the protest is misguided and not sending the intended message I wouldn't condemn the protester. That is as long as it is peaceful protest.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 25, 2017, 09:30:48 AM
Trump is just seizing another opportunity to fan the racist, white nationalist flames of his campaign.  It has cause an uproar of what was a nothing-burger just last week.  Meanwhile, Mueller continues on and Trump expanded his travel ban in between fighting with North Korea like a petulant child.

I don't care either way.  All meaningful protests by high-profile athletes are going to cause discomfort somewhere - that's the point.  This is as peaceful as they come, yet here's #45 spewing off more hatred for them than he did for the white supremacists who had "many good people."  That shows you who he is.  He's spent more time and energy on black athletes kneeling than he did with violent neo-Nazis, one of whom killed a woman and injured dozens others.  Deplorable.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 25, 2017, 09:37:58 AM
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/)

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: zinnie on September 25, 2017, 09:44:29 AM
I understand why people are offended/hurt at players not standing during the national anthem, and I don't blame them. I also think that these kinds of protests are bringing to light issues that desperately need to be discussed. It isn't a matter of one side or the other. I think we really need both of these voices right now. I was one of those people raised to believe racism was mostly "over" and through Black Lives Matter and other movements like this I've since learned a lot. (And as far as Trump's comments--I see no value in engaging with that kind of language and mentality. We have to keep the dialogue at a higher level if we are going to move forward.)

I liked what President Obama had to say about this a year ago:

I believe that us honoring our flag and our anthem is part of what binds us together as a nation.  And I think that for me, for my family, for those who work in the White House, we recognize what it means to us, but also what it means to the men and women who are fighting on our behalf.  But I’m also always trying to remind folks that part of what makes this country special is that we respect people’s rights to have a different opinion and to make different decisions about how they want to express their concerns.  And the test of our fidelity to our constitution, the freedom of speech, to our bill of rights, is not when it’s easy, but when it’s hard.

We fight sometimes so that people can do things that we disagree with.  But that’s what freedom means in this country.  And so my hope would be that as this debate surfaces, we’re always reminding ourselves that in a democracy like ours, there are going to be a lot of folks who do stuff that we just don’t agree with.  But as long as they’re doing it within the law, then we can voice our opinion objecting to it, but it’s also their right. 

And I think that it’s also important for us to recognize that sometimes out of these controversies, we start getting into a conversation, and I want everybody to listen to each other.  So I want Mr. Kaepernick and others who are on a knee, I want them to listen to the pain that that may cause somebody who, for example, had a spouse or a child who was killed in combat, and why it hurts them to see somebody not standing.  But I also want people to think about the pain that he may be expressing about somebody who’s lost a loved one that they think was unfairly shot. 

And one of the things that I always say about American democracy is, it can be frustrating, but it’s the best system we’ve got.  The only way that we make it work is to see each other, listen to each other, try to be respectful of each other, not just go into separate corners, and I do hope that anybody who’s trying to express any political view of any sort understands that they do so under the blanket of protection of our men and women in uniform, and that that appreciation of that sacrifice is never lost.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 09:54:30 AM
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/)

Toque.

You are correct, he is a moron.  Of course I question the decision to provide subsidies in first place but that's unrelated to this. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: acroy on September 25, 2017, 09:59:07 AM
Much ado about nothing

besides,

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 25, 2017, 10:02:28 AM
Much ado about nothing

besides,

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
And which part is the "nothing" to which you refer?

Are you saying the protests aren't a big deal and people shouldn't be offended or that Trump did nothing wrong?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 10:22:03 AM
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette)).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I don't see anything in the law you quoted regarding political displays for employees. 

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caffeine on September 25, 2017, 10:22:52 AM
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/)

Toque.

I don't see this as a danger of freedom of speech. Tax payers aren't obligated to subsidize a platform. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom from consequences. In this case, the consequence will be a single law maker making a fuss.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: BoonDogle on September 25, 2017, 10:34:31 AM
Trump can't resist the temptation to insert himself and his opinions into issues he should clearly stay away from.

I watch football because of the athletic ability of the players.  I don't care what issues the players support, what their personal lives are like, nor whether they stand, sit, or kneel during the anthem.  I don't care who puts their hand over their heart, sings along, etc.  I love to watch football and refuse to play along with a president that wants to politicize and divide the game.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Blonde Lawyer on September 25, 2017, 10:35:55 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 10:37:49 AM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-right-nfl-ratings-are-down-he-gets-reasons-wrong-670184

I think NFL ratings are down for a whole bunch of reasons.  This may or may not be part of it. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Milizard on September 25, 2017, 10:46:59 AM
We cut the cable, so we don't watch football any more,  though we will if it comes in on our antenna that we have yet to install after a couple years.  Lots of people have cut the cord.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 10:55:25 AM

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?

As with anything, the relevant questions here include "during what time period?" and "compared to what?".
the 2017 NFL regular season is just three weeks old. The first two weeks had a slight drop off compared with previous years, but the games are still trouncing all other sports and basically almost all other network programs. The first two weeks also coincided with massive hurricanes which disrupted both games and people's regular routines at watching them.  People seem to be watching content more broadly in general in recent years as network broadcast television increasingly competes with everything from Netflix to mobile forums.

tl/dr - there has been a modest decline in viewership and protests have probably had only a minor role in that decline.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 11:01:09 AM

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: simonsez on September 25, 2017, 11:32:05 AM

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I almost feel like copying and pasting Nereo's reply from earlier.  So you're saying "if the employer allows political speech" while also stating that the employer is blaring the national anthem during work hours?  Seems pretty obvious, if the employer plays the national anthem during work hours (a political action), the employee doesn't have to be forced to do anything with regard to it (even though the employer is forcing the employee either to comply or demonstrably not comply), and can also kneel during it without repercussions.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 25, 2017, 11:36:45 AM
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 11:40:37 AM

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I don't disagree with you that, outside employment hours you are free to protest however you see fit.  However, even this seems in doubt as sports figures are treated as corporate brands and a controversial late-night tweet from home can result in a player receiving fines or worse. To the NFL, these players are never 'off the clock' until they retire.

One issue I have here is that the NFL *does* mandate their players participate in the national anthem. 
Per the NFL's game operation manual: "All players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
So here we have a situation where "opting out" is results in all sorts of bad stuff for both the team and the player.*
This just strikes me as a 'wanting your cake and eating it too' argument.  The league demands they participate in an overtly nationalistic ritual.


* Commissoner Goodell has stated that no teams or players will be penalized over last weekend's protests or absence during the national anthem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 11:52:39 AM

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I almost feel like copying and pasting Nereo's reply from earlier.  So you're saying "if the employer allows political speech" while also stating that the employer is blaring the national anthem during work hours?  Seems pretty obvious, if the employer plays the national anthem during work hours (a political action), the employee doesn't have to be forced to do anything with regard to it (even though the employer is forcing the employee either to comply or demonstrably not comply), and can also kneel during it without repercussions.

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 25, 2017, 11:53:54 AM
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/)

Toque.

I don't see this as a danger of freedom of speech. Tax payers aren't obligated to subsidize a platform. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom from consequences. In this case, the consequence will be a single law maker making a fuss.

As someone said above, we're not necessarily in favour of those subsidies either.  But that's a separate discussion.  This could just as easily be a municipal zoning board disallowing your new parking lot, or rearranging bus schedules so no one can reach your game, or scheduling road closures to screw you over.

If the behaviour of the government is a punitive response to your political speech, the government in question is violating your constitutional rights.  That's the only clear sense in which we can talk about Free Speech violations.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: partgypsy on September 25, 2017, 12:53:33 PM
I guess all of these things, I see as a "test" of our democracy. Having professional athletes knee during the national anthem, in protest of racial discrimination, is a pretty "soft" test of our democracy. They are not "scary" or yelling or making threats, anything, and what they are protested is pretty well documented and disturbing problem in our society. So having a president act like a dictator in this case, is a very troubling wake up call for us as a democracy.

My opinion. You are not patriotic because you salute or stand for the US Flag. The US Flag is a symbol. You are patriotic, when your actions reflect our patriotic ideals of free speech, tolerance, acceptance, and inclusion. If you stand for the flag but don't put in action what the ideals the flag actually stands for, that is a false and hollow patriotism.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 25, 2017, 01:18:36 PM
I guess all of these things, I see as a "test" of our democracy. Having professional athletes knee during the national anthem, in protest of racial discrimination, is a pretty "soft" test of our democracy. They are not "scary" or yelling or making threats, anything, and what they are protested is pretty well documented and disturbing problem in our society. So having a president act like a dictator in this case, is a very troubling wake up call for us as a democracy.

My opinion. You are not patriotic because you salute or stand for the US Flag. The US Flag is a symbol. You are patriotic, when your actions reflect our patriotic ideals of free speech, tolerance, acceptance, and inclusion. If you stand for the flag but don't put in action what the ideals the flag actually stands for, that is a false and hollow patriotism.

<3
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: simonsez on September 25, 2017, 01:24:07 PM
The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
It's a temporary lifting of sanctions against employees of the NFL.  When they change the rulebook, that'll be more final with regard to repercussions.  But does anyone really care that much about the employer/employee relations of the NFL?  I don't recall too many presidential interjections or that much of a non-sport presence during the last CBA ratification process in 2011.  This is a bigger deal because it is reflective of issues in American society due to the number of eyeballs that directly and indirectly are exposed to the NFL.

Regarding an employer's ability to limit political speech, if kneeling is political speech, then so is playing the national anthem.  You can't force something like that and then also limit how others react to it.  Maybe you can though, but I feel like kneeling is so innocent compared to alternative types of protest.  In fact, almost any other action other than actively participating is likely to be more disruptive and/or disrespectful compared to quietly kneeling.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 01:29:11 PM

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
What concerns me about this viewpoint is the amount of 'rights' given to employers that are not granted to employees. In this example the NFL has the right to compel players and coaches to be present for and stand during the national anthem. If they players do not comply, the league has the power to offer harsh penalties on both the individual and the entire team (thereby punishing others for the actions of an individual). Conversely, the players cannot decline to participate or to refrain from standing. In essence the employer is telling the employee that he must act in a manner which shows fealty to the United States (not the employer OR the profession), regardless of his personal beliefs.

The fact that the league has decided not to take actions against any players is NOT the end of the story.  The very fact that they could at any moment is cause for concern. As protests go this is about as peaceful and respectful as one could imagine. It did not delay any work (the games being performed) nor destroy any property. Individuals were not coerced into one action or another.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 25, 2017, 02:02:00 PM
It seems like we can trim this out into separate issues.

1. President Trump's remarks. I didn't hear or read them, but it sounds like he said something inflammatory (as is his habit) towards kneeling NFL players.  The federal government doesn't have any business having opinions on private business or local politics. I felt just as annoyed when Congress grilled Jose Canseco and Roger Clemens about getting steroids in the butt and President Obama arranged some kind of mediation with a black D.C. professor who was erroneously arrested, or he expressed his personal opinions on Trevon Martin and the riots in Missouri. We have other levels of government to handle those things while at the federal level they squander their work day.

2. Can/should NFL players protest during a game? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the players have behavioral clauses in their contracts? Dress this way, don't say these things, do specific things while playing?  If that's the case, have those issues been filtered through a court? When Kaepernick started the kneeling, the main gripe folks seemed to have was "time and place." He's an employee being paid to perform a function which if his contract mandates it, conduct himself by specific principles and actions. As someone who must adhere to similar requirements in my professional life I tend to agree with those opinions.  Someone mentioned how it is unfair that the NFL can say "no politics on the field" while also forcing the national anthem on them (arguably a political act.)  While I think we have an excess of nationalism in America (see comments below), I don't see the anthem itself as expressing a political opinion. If the NFL put on a show that blatantly called out "All hail the military and President Trump!" then I'd definitely agree with you there.

3. "You hate America and veterans by not standing up straight!"  Yeah, a great many of those folks drive me nuts. I've made my opinion known on this issue a couple times and I'll share it again. Service members swore to defend the US Constitution. All of it.  Exercising your rights is not heresy or disrespect.  The way some people do it I may find personally annoying, but I don't hate them for it.  The service members and veterans getting so bent out of shape you worry they may develop an ulcer I remind you: selfless service is one of our core principles.  Nobody owes you anything for volunteering.  It was unfortunate that the DoD paid the NFL for the public appearances and made it an expectation.  A great many service members seem to think they should have their asses kissed before their first pair of boots are broken in while forgetting what we're defending in the first place.

4. Why are we protesting again? I see this spiraling into media saturation to the point people and groups are going to kneel in either solidarity with the players or because they don't like President Trump. I wonder how many of them remember what started it in the first place.  I remember, and I've barely heard two words in two years in the media.  This will be forgotten before long and we'll move on to our next source of moral outrage.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Midwest on September 25, 2017, 02:17:22 PM

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
What concerns me about this viewpoint is the amount of 'rights' given to employers that are not granted to employees. In this example the NFL has the right to compel players and coaches to be present for and stand during the national anthem. If they players do not comply, the league has the power to offer harsh penalties on both the individual and the entire team (thereby punishing others for the actions of an individual). Conversely, the players cannot decline to participate or to refrain from standing. In essence the employer is telling the employee that he must act in a manner which shows fealty to the United States (not the employer OR the profession), regardless of his personal beliefs.

The fact that the league has decided not to take actions against any players is NOT the end of the story.  The very fact that they could at any moment is cause for concern. As protests go this is about as peaceful and respectful as one could imagine. It did not delay any work (the games being performed) nor destroy any property. Individuals were not coerced into one action or another.

I'm good with reasonable accommodation, just not sure that reasonable accommodation means kneeling during the anthem and speaking about your beliefs during the press conference.  If I decided to be overly political with a client/audience, I could be fired if my action offended the client.  What we seem to disagree on is reasonable accommodation. 

Personally, I thought the Steelers staying in the locker room was a better direction to go.  Clearly, however, not everyone on the team was in agreement. 

We may disagree on the above, but I do agree that Trump overstepped.  Respectfully saying he disagrees with the players actions would have been fine.  Calling for their firing as the POTUS was over the line.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 02:36:51 PM
It seems like we can trim this out into separate issues.

1. President Trump's remarks. I didn't hear or read them, but it sounds like he said something inflammatory (as is his habit) towards kneeling NFL players.  The federal government doesn't have any business having opinions on private business or local politics. I felt just as annoyed when Congress grilled Jose Canseco and Roger Clemens about getting steroids in the butt and President Obama arranged some kind of mediation with a black D.C. professor who was erroneously arrested, or he expressed his personal opinions on Trevon Martin and the riots in Missouri. We have other levels of government to handle those things while at the federal level they squander their work day.

2. Can/should NFL players protest during a game? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the players have behavioral clauses in their contracts? Dress this way, don't say these things, do specific things while playing?  If that's the case, have those issues been filtered through a court? When Kaepernick started the kneeling, the main gripe folks seemed to have was "time and place." He's an employee being paid to perform a function which if his contract mandates it, conduct himself by specific principles and actions. As someone who must adhere to similar requirements in my professional life I tend to agree with those opinions.  Someone mentioned how it is unfair that the NFL can say "no politics on the field" while also forcing the national anthem on them (arguably a political act.)  While I think we have an excess of nationalism in America (see comments below), I don't see the anthem itself as expressing a political opinion. If the NFL put on a show that blatantly called out "All hail the military and President Trump!" then I'd definitely agree with you there.

3. "You hate America and veterans by not standing up straight!"  Yeah, a great many of those folks drive me nuts. I've made my opinion known on this issue a couple times and I'll share it again. Service members swore to defend the US Constitution. All of it.  Exercising your rights is not heresy or disrespect.  The way some people do it I may find personally annoying, but I don't hate them for it.  The service members and veterans getting so bent out of shape you worry they may develop an ulcer I remind you: selfless service is one of our core principles.  Nobody owes you anything for volunteering.  It was unfortunate that the DoD paid the NFL for the public appearances and made it an expectation.  A great many service members seem to think they should have their asses kissed before their first pair of boots are broken in while forgetting what we're defending in the first place.

4. Why are we protesting again? I see this spiraling into media saturation to the point people and groups are going to kneel in either solidarity with the players or because they don't like President Trump. I wonder how many of them remember what started it in the first place.  I remember, and I've barely heard two words in two years in the media.  This will be forgotten before long and we'll move on to our next source of moral outrage.

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 25, 2017, 02:39:50 PM
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Yes, it's important to understand we have two different protests here.  While some may disagree with with Kaepernick's method of protesting, it's much harder to disagree with the second wave of protests: protesting against the government trying to punish political speech.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on September 25, 2017, 03:17:38 PM
I recently took a stab at explaining the white trash outrage over this issue with a post in my journal if anyone is interested.

On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: marty998 on September 25, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.

I am rapidly coming to this conclusion myself. If it's one thing I could have said to younger Marty, it would be to turn off the freaking TV and stop worshipping these people.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 25, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
I recently took a stab at explaining the white trash outrage over this issue with a post in my journal if anyone is interested.

On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.

You're not alone. Useless carbs aren't a problem for me, but professional sports don't give me any entertainment at all. I usually watch the Super Bowl, but only because I'm invited to a big party where other people feed me and there's excitement among friends.  My in-laws used to make a big deal out of watching the Oscars, until they finally realized how political it was and that deep down the next morning we really don't care which director got an award for a movie we didn't see. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: lexde on September 25, 2017, 03:37:35 PM
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 25, 2017, 03:41:18 PM
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

#4. Got it, thanks.  I just foresee "kneeling" to be the next hashtagged event across social media and all the superficial behaviors that go with it.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 25, 2017, 03:47:59 PM
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.

Because THIS is trying to make them look at the actual injustice and THEY DON'T WANT TO.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 03:56:43 PM
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

Almost universally players are required to do some kind of pre/post game media interview when requested. It can lead to some downright comical performnces (http://www.nbcwashington.com/blogs/capital-games/The-Many-Faces-Of-Clinton-Portis-A-Retrospective-166951856.html) when players don't want to say much.

On a related note, mentioned upthread was whether they could espouse their political views... well, what the heck are you supposed to say when some reporter asks you "what do you think about [insert latest controversy]?"
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Jouer on September 25, 2017, 04:03:04 PM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...

I've heard that up until a few years ago, players weren't on the field during the national anthem. As part of the DoD's marketing/recruitment budget, they started paying the NFL/teams to do these patriotic events. Thank a vet, etc. The teams aren't doing that out of the goodness of their heart - it's a sponsored event, paid for out of your taxes. The marketing has clearly paid off.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Jouer on September 25, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
^^^

I said "your taxes" because I'm Canadian. My taxes go towards the NHL doing the same. (So do yours)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: former player on September 25, 2017, 04:15:20 PM
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 04:16:43 PM
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

#4. Got it, thanks.  I just foresee "kneeling" to be the next hashtagged event across social media and all the superficial behaviors that go with it.

Sure pre/post-game press conferences and stuff like that. Part of a coaches contract as well. Still nothing to do with the national anthem though. I doubt there is a clause for the national anthem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 25, 2017, 04:18:15 PM
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE!

If the problem were just that Trump is racist, we wouldn't have these protests. The problem is that his supporters are racist AND HOW DARE YOU CALL ME THAT FOR SUPPORTING A RACIST AND A RACIST FLAG AND...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 25, 2017, 04:33:36 PM
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: former player on September 25, 2017, 04:38:49 PM
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 25, 2017, 04:43:13 PM
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
The DoD ought to get some sort of advertising award for this.  Spend a few million to establish a self-sustaining 'custom' promoting your brand.  End payments but watch as everyone assumes it was always this way and fans would be livid if it ever stopped.  Well played, DoD.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Telecaster on September 25, 2017, 04:47:03 PM
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...

As I understand it, the issue is that some players want their teammates to take a knee, and some players want their team mates to stand, placing lots of players  in an awkward position who want to support their teammates but don't approve of a specific action.    By staying in the locker room, it removes the issue. 

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 04:48:00 PM
Random thoughts from someone who doesn't really care all that much about football (me):

1. If enough people are so offended by the kneeling that they stop watching NFL games, it will be interesting to see what the NFL does about it. Will they do something about the "root cause" of the protest? Will they contribute money to productive and related solutions? Will they force teams/players to go back to standing during the national anthem? Will they do anything at all?

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

3. I can't think of a #3, so I guess I'll just stick with my #1 and #2 above.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 05:21:24 PM
Random thoughts from someone who doesn't really care all that much about football (me):

1. If enough people are so offended by the kneeling that they stop watching NFL games, it will be interesting to see what the NFL does about it. Will they do something about the "root cause" of the protest? Will they contribute money to productive and related solutions? Will they force teams/players to go back to standing during the national anthem? Will they do anything at all?

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

3. I can't think of a #3, so I guess I'll just stick with my #1 and #2 above.


1. It will be amazing if the NFL and it's players were to fund some type of non-profit for the betterment of impoverished youth/families and some type of reach-out program for gang members and such.

It would also be great if NFL players were willing to "ride along" with police officers in the areas where black on black crime(and maybe open-mindedly where the police brutality situations took place) and get to see both sides of the problem.  Maybe even talk to the youths and try to make a positive impact on their lives.

2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR.

Yes the black community(and in reality the impoverished ones) has a lot of issues, one of the main ones in my opinion is the fatherlessness problem which continues to grow. But to say , "I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes its other issues first" is a weird way to go about it.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: lexde on September 25, 2017, 05:23:57 PM
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.

Because THIS is trying to make them look at the actual injustice and THEY DON'T WANT TO.
Fair enough!
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 25, 2017, 05:44:56 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 05:50:32 PM
2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things (it DOES have issues it needs to address asap) it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR. 

I think the ORIGINAL basis of some of the protesting is/was absolutely justified. But it seems like some people just want to hop on the protest bandwagon for the money/attention/anger/looting/whatever, and at some point, the original purpose/goal gets lost. It's rather unfortunate, because as you point out, there are real problems that need to be addressed.

"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.

Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 06:01:46 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 06:16:04 PM
2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things (it DOES have issues it needs to address asap) it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR. 

I think the ORIGINAL basis of some of the protesting is/was absolutely justified. But it seems like some people just want to hop on the protest bandwagon for the money/attention/anger/looting/whatever, and at some point, the original purpose/goal gets lost. It's rather unfortunate, because as you point out, there are real problems that need to be addressed.

"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.

Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.

I'm in Cleveland, so I understand the way this topic can intertwine itself into everyday life to the point you just want it done and over with. After the Tamir Rice killing (that's what I consider it) the city felt divided in many different ways and it completely felt like there was such a heavy weight on everyone's shoulders. The anger was noticeable and depressing...

I also understand not being happy with the "come along" people who are involved only to cause harm and damage as opposed to actually care about finding a solution to the problems.  Those people should be prosecuted for their crimes. There is no place for that type of vandalism masquerading itself as a real protest.

And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 25, 2017, 06:17:58 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Yeah, it’s a drag when people who have nothing to fear from cops keep having to put up with constantly being asked to care that not everyone is so lucky.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 06:22:13 PM
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 07:28:58 PM
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 25, 2017, 07:36:55 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. Not EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 07:39:19 PM
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it.

Three possibilities:
1. We live in different cities.
2. Good stuff is happening and I'm not aware of it because I don't watch TV and I'm not on Facebook. (I do read the local paper on the web, and I never see any stories about this. I believe I would notice stories about this because they would definitely interest me.)
3. Good stuff is happening and it's not being publicized enough.
I guess a fourth possibility is my news sources are biased. (Aren't they all?) But I do listen to and read a variety of local sources.

Regardless, I'm so glad to hear that good stuff is happening in your city. I'd love to hear more about what's going on, especially stuff that could "go viral" and spread to other cities.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 07:42:49 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

Um...I guess if that's your interpretation of what I've written, then okay. But it was not my intent. That's a risk we take when sharing thoughts on the web.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 25, 2017, 07:43:18 PM
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it.

Three possibilities:
1. We live in different cities.
2. Good stuff is happening and I'm not aware of it because I don't watch TV and I'm not on Facebook. (I do read the local paper on the web, and I never see any stories about this. I believe I would notice stories about this because they would definitely interest me.)
3. Good stuff is happening and it's not being publicized enough.
I guess a fourth possibility is my news sources are biased. (Aren't they all?) But I do listen to and read a variety of local sources.

Regardless, I'm so glad to hear that good stuff is happening in your city. I'd love to hear more about what's going on, especially stuff that could "go viral" and spread to other cities.

Two words.... "GET INVOLVED" Instead of claiming the media is bias or your don't watch TV and then assuming they don't exist. It isn't just my city.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 07:46:27 PM
Two words.... "GET INVOLVED" Instead of claiming the media is bias or your don't watch TV and then assuming they don't exist. It isn't just my city.

That's fair. In fact, I had lunch today with someone who is passionate about diversity, inclusion, and moving race relations forward. It was a fascinating conversation and I look forward to our next one.

I was just responding about your "I see it in the news every day" statement, which is why I focused on the media in that reply.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 07:53:16 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 25, 2017, 07:58:49 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 08:05:06 PM
1. It will be amazing if the NFL and it's players were to fund some type of non-profit for the betterment of impoverished youth/families and some type of reach-out program for gang members and such.

It would also be great if NFL players were willing to "ride along" with police officers in the areas where black on black crime(and maybe open-mindedly where the police brutality situations took place) and get to see both sides of the problem.  Maybe even talk to the youths and try to make a positive impact on their lives.

I wish I could remember the source, but I recall hearing a story/opinion/study recently talking about how when ONE family member graduates from college, it changes the trajectory of the family tree forever.  Given that, wouldn't it be cool if the NFL could sponsor a crap-ton of scholarships for young adults who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity/funds, but do have the motivation? Just one random idea. I'm sure there are better ideas out there...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 25, 2017, 08:11:45 PM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.


Detracting Attention =/= Racism

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Miss Piggy on September 25, 2017, 08:23:46 PM
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 25, 2017, 09:04:51 PM
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?

As has been said, the community is working in the community. The rest of us need to work on the larger systematic problems imposed on the community. That is, let's take the log out of our own eye, rather than telling them what to do.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: former player on September 26, 2017, 02:46:29 AM
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?
Yes.  Except that there is a qualitative difference between violence between individuals (eg black on black shootings) and state violence against individuals (eg police on black shootings).  The latter is much more worrying, because it is institutionalised, and because it is the power of the government used against the people, and because it is clearly oppressive against black people.  It is racist in a way in which black on black violence is not.

And one of the causes of black on black violence is the unfair and unjust system in which black people live.  If you remove the racist injustice from the state then you provide the space and opportunity for black people to move on into better situations and away from the situations in which violence is more likely.

So care about all people equally, but act first on state violence against the individual.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Big Boots Buddha on September 26, 2017, 04:29:55 AM
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 26, 2017, 05:36:33 AM
If you don't like someone and they tell you to stop doing a certain behavior because they find it annoying, what better way is there to respond than to continue doing that same behavior even more?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ooeei on September 26, 2017, 06:29:47 AM
I think what the NFL and the players do is their own business, and whether they get fired or not isn't a free speech issue as it's a private organization.

What's concerning is the leader of the government (the thing that your free speech and right to protest is actually protected from) telling other people to punish those who protest since he legally can't. This could turn into a way for the government to circumvent free speech and protest protections through third parties, which is a huge problem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Pigeon on September 26, 2017, 06:39:24 AM
I'm not a sports fan and I don't follow the NFL.

I don't think standing for the national anthem, flag waving, reciting the pledge, etc., has anything at all to do with patriotism.  Patriotism is living in a way that furthers the ideals of your country.  Flag waving doesn't make democracy stronger or provide freedom or justice to anyone.

I think it's fine that athletes decide to kneel, raise a fist or whatever before or after events if it calls attention to inequality and injustice. 

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: partgypsy on September 26, 2017, 06:52:22 AM
Shared:
"So with all of this drama with the NFL and the players kneeling for the national anthem let’s put this into perspective. Why do people kneel for anything?
 A man kneels before the woman he wants to marry to show respect and be at her mercy for the question he is about to ask.

Christians kneel when praying to show respect and be at the mercy of God.

In many cultures civilians kneel before a their leader to show respect and to be at the mercy of their ruler.

So maybe take a step back and see what these men are doing. They are kneeling respectfully and are at the mercy of our nation to make changes for a cause that needs to be addressed. They have the opportunity to draw attention to a cause that many people are affected by and they are doing so respectfully!!!

If they turned their back or sat on the bench during the anthem now that would be disrespectful. Instead they are kneeling to the mercy of our nation begging for something to change!"
 Ashi Baldwin


My view, when Warren Buffett points out that he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, the reaction is "well why don't you pay more in taxes?" Or pro players demonstrating against black deaths at the hand of police "Why don't you do MORE to help?" First of all, I don't knee jerk assume they are NOT doing other things to help (Warren Buffett intends to give away the vast majority of his wealth in philanthropic efforts, a quick look, many players give off the field and court https://www.looktothestars.org/news/14160-which-nfl-player-gives-the-most-to-charity  not to mention expected to essentially financially support extended family.

While this is admirable, an individual can only do so much and it doesn't solve the institutionalized problems that need to be addressed a different way, such as training, or legislation, and simply awareness of the problem in the first place! I don't see Black leaders ignoring black on black crime. But you have to be aware, a large part of the problem arise from people living in segregated areas with poor education, absent or not strong family structure, poor prospects and gang affiliation or crime seeming like the only way to have someone have your back or improve ones prospects. It's a complicated problem that also has systemic issues at its roots.  The whole "I'll only care about a) when b) happens" is like saying I'll only help Puerto Rico with the hurricane when Mexico helps itself after the earthquake (wtf?)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 06:52:38 AM

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.

Or that he's intentionally stirring the hornets nest to distract from other news, a technique he's used often in the past.
what could he be distracting from?
...collapse of the latest GOP health care bill
...hypocrisy of his staff using private email servers to conduct official business
...criticism about the emergency response to Puerto Rico
...potential loss of 'his' candidate Luther Strange in Alabama
...proposed tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans - of which he and his family would benefit.

Even by this administrations standards this could be an epicly poor week. Now DJT's throwing red meat to his base and soaking up all the minutes of air time on this manufactured 'controversy' of players kneeling during a sporting event.  Every minute the talk shows spend discussing who knelt and who stood is time they aren't spending examining what's going on in the White House and with DJT's political agenda.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 06:54:24 AM
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother

You must have had your head in the sand.  This was started last year by Colin Kaepernick, quarterback for the 49ers who got demoted to backup and now doesn't have a job in the league.

He was joined by teammate Eric Reid last year - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

They met with Army vets about this and spent thoughtful time on how to make an impact and spread awareness.  The act of kneeling was meant to show honor and respect to the troops while calling out that they weren't seeing this "perfect, ideal America" happening for all people.

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

^Kaepernick then spent 10 months donating $100,000/month to charitable organizations aimed at helping oppressed communities.  He was literally "putting his money where his mouth is."  He was vilified during the season and now out of a job because he's "too toxic" for another team to employ.

Look at that...doing exactly what you claim they should be doing and getting **** for it from society.  These guys can't win.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Pigeon on September 26, 2017, 07:00:04 AM

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.

Or that he's intentionally stirring the hornets nest to distract from other news, a technique he's used often in the past.
what could he be distracting from?
...collapse of the latest GOP health care bill
...hypocrisy of his staff using private email servers to conduct official business
...criticism about the emergency response to Puerto Rico
...potential loss of 'his' candidate Luther Strange in Alabama
...proposed tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans - of which he and his family would benefit.

Even by this administrations standards this could be an epicly poor week. Now DJT's throwing red meat to his base and soaking up all the minutes of air time on this manufactured 'controversy' of players kneeling during a sporting event.  Every minute the talk shows spend discussing who knelt and who stood is time they aren't spending examining what's going on in the White House and with DJT's political agenda.

Absolutely, but all of those things aren't the actions of someone who is patriotic.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on September 26, 2017, 07:04:06 AM
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother

You must have had your head in the sand.  This was started last year by Colin Kaepernick, quarterback for the 49ers who got demoted to backup and now doesn't have a job in the league.

He was joined by teammate Eric Reid last year - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

They met with Army vets about this and spent thoughtful time and how to make an impact and spread awareness.  The act of kneeling was meant to show honor and respect to the troops while calling out that they weren't seeing this "perfect, ideal America" happening for all people.

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

^Kaepernick then spent 10 months donating $100,000/month to charitable organizations aimed at helping oppressed communities.  He was literally "putting his money where his mouth is."  He was vilified during the season and now out of a job because he's "too toxic" for another team to employ.

Look at that...doing exactly what you claim they should be doing and getting **** for it from society.  These guys can't win.

^This.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 07:14:52 AM


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

This is simple.  If someone tells you "Black Lives Matter" and your first (and perhaps only) thought is "Don't ALL lives matter?" you're completely missing the point.  You're woefully ignorant and quite possibly a racist.

Quote
black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

Quote
unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

I can't believe I have to spell this out but here it goes.

Has anyone every said or demonstrated that "white lives don't matter?"  Were whites ever not citizens of this country?  Were thousands of whites lynched simply because of the color of their skin?  Have whites been denied the right to vote for 100 years after gaining citizenship?  Have whites had to endure all black juries in racist parts of the country against them because of their skin?

It goes on and on.  Racism lives in this country (and around the world).  Blacks are STILL the target of a majority of this racism.  Cops say they will kill a black man, do it, and then get acquitted.  So the latest form of legal racism has been cops hunting down unarmed black men at an alarming rate...and mostly getting away with it.

So, many people stood up to say black lives matter.  They aren't just a statistic, people to be hunted by police officers.

If your response is, "Well, ALL lives matter," ask yourself, when did any non-Black (Native American, Hispanic, etc. would all be acceptable here imo, but people have been focusing on police killings of African Americans) NOT matter?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 26, 2017, 07:21:28 AM

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

The issue with the original quote is that it's one often used by racists to ignore the problem of police brutality.  It sets off alarm bells for people who have followed this issue for years.  That's not to say that Miss Piggy is a racist, merely that she's quoting something that sounds familiar.

The shooting of Tamir Rice, for example, is indicative of a *huge* problem: even small black children are considered dangerous individuals that need to be approached with deadly force.  To say, in response to this, that you won't care about the "supposed basis" of the real crimes until black-on-black violence is handled has a number of problems:

1. The use of the word "supposed" supposes that the problems aren't real
2. "black-on-black" violence is being addressed, constantly, by the African American community
3. even if it weren't, police brutality should still be addressed

While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.

Imagine if you heard someone say, "Look, Hitler had some good ideas about the economy ...".  Wouldn't you tense up, wondering what's coming on the tail end of that?  So yeah, statements like the quote above are going to look pretty suspicious.  From the follow up posts, we can tell that Miss Piggy is not the sort of person to go off on a racist tirade.  But that first quote is something that I've seen far too many unsavory characters start with and I wouldn't recommend using it as part of a heartfelt discussion.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on September 26, 2017, 07:32:21 AM
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
No one made peaceful impossible. People are exercising their free speech rights to criticize employees exercising free expression, and the firms permitting this free expression.

That's quite literally how the country is supposed to function. Congress has passed no law abridging any freedom.



Quote
So, many people stood up to say black lives matter.  They aren't just a statistic, people to be hunted by police officers
I'm not on board with BLM because most supporters I see say things like this. Cops are not in the business of hunting man for sport or any other reason.

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

The same applies to people complaining "but OJ Did it!" Jury acquitted. That should be the end of the discussion.


Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 26, 2017, 07:34:43 AM
"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.
Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.
It's not necessarily the protesters who are choosing , it's the media and it's viewers.

When someone is shot erroneously and there is strong evidence supporting that fact, everyone agrees. The media presents it as "Wow that was terrible, everyone should know about this." They talk about it for a few days to weeks but most people aren't all that interested because it's a clear cut case.

When someone is shot and it seems like there is a good chance race played into the incident but there is also evidence that the person shot was guilty of something, now there are questions and people want answers. So much so that the media is willing to speculate, which is the next best thing to answers (emotionally, in reality speculation can be worse than nothing). People make up their own answers based on their biases because it feels good. People make up stories of cops planting evidence because that makes it a thriller. Others make up stories of the victim attacking the police because the idea that police can make mistakes scares them. But the reality is that very few people or sometimes no one knows what really happened.

Just as an example, weeks after the Trayvon Martin incident I saw two newscasters tussling on the floor trying to recreate what happened that night. These people do not have the expertise to be engaged in this sort of thing, yet their little skit almost certainly influenced people's opinion of what happened. It's like uncle Johnny know it all who has a way to explain everything is spouting his bullshit on television and people watch cause, you know, Uncle Johnny is kinda entertaining.

Sorry, that may have turned into a rant.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 07:36:33 AM

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 26, 2017, 07:39:33 AM
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.
Bringing awareness and getting the discussion rolling IS doing something. Not to mention actual involvement in the community. 

Quote
Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV.
Hypocrit much? Kneeling is doing something. And when they do it folks like you scold them for it. Ever heard of Rosa Parks? She wasn't raising awareness for bus transportation issues.

Quote
I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that.
That literally makes no sense. It is about police brutality among other racial issues. So you scold them for claiming they are doing nothing and then scold them for doing something and claim what they are doing it for they don't actually care about.

Reminds me of an old saying "you can't make sense of nonsense."
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on September 26, 2017, 07:43:04 AM

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.

That seems like a bigger issue of racism, from my POV. Juries are more likely to convict AAs and judges pass down harsher sentences. Juries should be hesitant to convict. Better to have guilty people in the populace than innocent people in jail.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Cwadda on September 26, 2017, 07:48:46 AM
Quote
While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.
I hope the thread doesn't get locked. I'm really enjoying this one, great points of view all around.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Cpa Cat on September 26, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?


We don't read the Diary of Anne Frank in school and then say, "Yeah but, what about all the other people who died in the Holocaust?"  "A lot of people had it worse than her, why aren't we reading about them?"

"Shouldn't we care about ALL the problems facing Nazi Germany at that time? Why does this one person matter so much?"

Certain deaths become a symbol for the whole. We don't need to know and state the name of every single person who dies unnecessarily as a footnote to caring about one death. That one death already encapsulates a whole problem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 26, 2017, 07:59:00 AM
Quote
While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.
I hope the thread doesn't get locked. I'm really enjoying this one, great points of view all around.
I'm hoping to avoid that myself, honestly.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 07:59:27 AM

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.

That seems like a bigger issue of racism, from my POV. Juries are more likely to convict AAs and judges pass down harsher sentences. Juries should be hesitant to convict. Better to have guilty people in the populace than innocent people in jail.

The book was a startling read for me, not being from the south or living there.  Bryan heads up the Equal Justice Initiative - trying to overturn many of these wrongful convictions (mind you, these people have been locked up 10, 15, 20+ years for crimes they didn't commit).
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: OurTown on September 26, 2017, 08:19:32 AM
Protest comes with the territory in a free society.  I get really uncomfortable any time anyone talks about limiting free speech or curbing the right to protest.  That includes protest by people I disagree with too.  We all have the right to express our opinions, nonviolently of course.

Now, if the question is "what are the protesters trying to accomplish" and/or "are their methods effective," that's a different discussion.  In other words, do your protests raise awareness, gain support for your cause, change hearts and minds, etc.?  Or do your protests just reinforce the opposite point of view?  That's a tougher assessment. 

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 26, 2017, 08:26:34 AM
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
No one made peaceful impossible. People are exercising their free speech rights to criticize employees exercising free expression, and the firms permitting this free expression.

That's quite literally how the country is supposed to function. Congress has passed no law abridging any freedom.
First, it's a quote and won't necessarily apply to this exact situation. Second, the idea is that if the NFL followed Trump's suggestion they would be making peaceful revolution impossible, at least through this one outlet.

I think that while the president technically has a similar right to free speech as everyone else, his words carry much more weight especially if he is being suggestive or threatening towards someone he doesn't like. He is in a position where he can cause citizens to act simply by tweeting a suggestion. He can put quotes on it or say it was sarcastic all he wants but that don't mean shit when the death threats have already started rolling in. If anyone takes violent action against NFL players he will bear part of the responsibility.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
The thread is starting to veer into other discussion, rightfully intertwined with the emphasis of the protest but not the original reason for me to start it, so can we go back to the original premise?

What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest?

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued?

What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting?

Would you boo the players?

What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem?


If we can stay on track that will be great but at the end of the day, the river will flow whichever way it wants...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 08:56:32 AM
What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest? That would be within their rights as a private employer.  I'm sure people would scream "BUT FREEDOM OF SPEECH" but the players are being paid a salary by the NFL teams.  This wouldn't be govt. infringing on their 1st A. rights.

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued? Companies are free to sponsor or not any causes which they choose.  If THIS is where they draw the line (and not the complete mishandling of domestic violence cases) I will think less of those sponsors, not that they care.
  I probably don't buy most of their products anyway.

What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting? A bit hypocritical to boo anthem decorum during the anthem since...that's against anthem decorum.

Would you boo the players? No.  Haven't been to an NFL game in 20+
 years so this dilemma won't come across my plate any time soon.

What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem? Forcing patriotism on everyone isn't true patriotism.
  Petty is missing the point of the protests, but then again, NASCAR barely cares about Confederate flags being flown at their events.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 09:07:40 AM
The thread is starting to veer into other discussion, rightfully intertwined with the emphasis of the protest but not the original reason for me to start it, so can we go back to the original premise?

What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest?
I feel very uneasy anytime an employer exerts pressure on their employees to stop individual expression. As I said upthread, I don't believe it is right for an employer to force employees to partake in a ritual unrelated to their actual job and prevent them from either abstaining or respectfully protesting.
Sum: In my view it would be wrong for the NFL to 'put a stop' to peaceful protests like this one.  Nix the national anthem, don't cover it on live TV (they also refrain from showing fights and idiots running on the field), whatever. But if players have to be present for the anthem they should be allowed act according to their own values.

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued?
Sponsors are inherently anti-controversy. If I'm selling a widget I want to sell them to as many people as possible, regardless of their political ideology. Ergo, I would not fault companies if they decided to pull back, unless they explicitly made it about the protests (e.g. "we will not support a league that allows individuals to respectfully dissent (see above)"

What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting?
Freedom and democracy means allowing displays of dissent. Fans are free to 'boo' if they like. 

Quote
Would you boo the players?
No. As I've said I think what they are doing is both respectful and part of living in a democracy. If they become violent or disruptive (for example, if a player grabbed the enormous flag and tried to run away with it) then I would express my displeasure because they would be preventing the playing of the national anthem.
Quote
What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem?
That's a blowhard, authoritarian response to a peaceful protest. True leaders (both elected and in business) should be able to tolerate and even embrace contrasting viewpoints.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 10:17:19 AM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation? But somehow not disavowing some group he has nothing to do with is wrong??? Like we need a moral leader, but commenting our national past time way over the line. People are crying a screaming and it is the news headline for three weeks that he did not do it good enough disavowing kinda wrong. The level of hypocrisy is astounding...

I want to see Hillary Clinton disavow the DNC. I want to see her apologize to Bernie Sanders and his supporters. I wish I had choice other than libertarian Rand Johnson, or whoever. If you voted democrat, you lost; get over it*. Stop blaming Russia, the DNC stole the election!!!!!



*Technically I lost too, but realistically, it has gone about as good as can be expected.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 26, 2017, 10:20:07 AM
Yes, let's respect our national anthem about American freedom by having employers and government forcing people to stand for it. If you are for the free speech rights of the NFL players, I don't see why there would be an issue with fans or sponsors protesting either.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 26, 2017, 10:41:27 AM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 10:42:20 AM
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).

Now we have the head of the DoJ making statements about employees in a private company.  This is getting interesting.  If its up to the employer to decide whether to allow such displays, what business does the DoJ have in issuing such statements?  If it is a matter of free speech, the AG Sessions has clearly come out as 'against'. The only rational conclusion I can reach is that he believes individuals should not have the freedom to kneel during the anthem regardless of whether it is permissible by their employer.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 26, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: bacchi on September 26, 2017, 11:00:46 AM
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.

Or they don't want any peaceful protesting at all because, ya know, everything looks damn good from my (privileged) vantage.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 11:02:43 AM
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.
Sure.  but when the person in question is the US Attorney General, head of the US Department of Justice, it carries a bit more weight.  Because of his title his opinions will always be considered through the lens of what is legally permissible.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Hedge_87 on September 26, 2017, 11:07:08 AM
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: runbikerun on September 26, 2017, 11:14:21 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 11:15:32 AM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 26, 2017, 11:16:37 AM
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.

I hope he wasn't pressured into the apology, but I can see where he might have finally realized that standing up for people and principles is way more important than symbols and songs.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: bacchi on September 26, 2017, 11:18:45 AM
Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

It's more nuanced than that. He apologized for not publicly expressing support for his teammates and appearing to show them up. He didn't apologize for standing during the anthem per se. He also stated that he supports his teammates who chose to protest during the anthem.

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 11:19:10 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 11:20:50 AM
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.


Actually he was planning on not showing up for the anthem, as the whole team had decided the day before. He decided he wanted to step out before the anthem to honor the flag and was "blocked" from making it back to the locker room before the anthem started.  At that point he decided to stay out and stand.  He apologized to his teammates for appearing as if he was the only one outside, meaning against them.  It was a misunderstanding between him and his teammates.

From the horses mouth;
https://youtu.be/EJubf3o_YCo
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 11:27:20 AM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.


The president clearly called an NFL protester(I would imagine he meant Kaepernick, who's not even on a team) a "Son of a bitch" and to get him "Out of there" and "Fired".

So the question to you is, if Obama had called a white, let's say hockey player, a son of a bitch and wanted him fired for protesting in the same manner, about a known issue in America, would you be saying the same thing?

Needless to say this thread seems to be headed in the wrong direction...

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: runbikerun on September 26, 2017, 11:30:02 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Isn't the national anthem of the United States named after the flag?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 11:33:54 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 11:36:59 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.

And it continues.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912664574461120512
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Hedge_87 on September 26, 2017, 11:43:09 AM
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.


Actually he was planning on not showing up for the anthem, as the whole team had decided the day before. He decided he wanted to step out before the anthem to honor the flag and was "blocked" from making it back to the locker room before the anthem started.  At that point he decided to stay out and stand.  He apologized to his teammates for appearing as if he was the only one outside, meaning against them.  It was a misunderstanding between him and his teammates.

From the horses mouth;
https://youtu.be/EJubf3o_YCo
Ok I stand corrected I was just going off half the conversation I heard on the radio and the rest was recapped from some of the more 'merican people I work with.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 11:43:13 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Isn't the national anthem of the United States named after the flag?

Well yes, but it is just a song, not a pledge. You know a pledge to....a flag. The more you think about it the weirder it is.

The anthem is just a representation of the refusal to give up even though the fort was bombarded throughout the night. The author of the song was telling the captives below in the boat that the american flag was still flying, i.e.; they had not given up.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 11:44:37 AM
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.

And it continues.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912664574461120512
For those that prefer to stay away from the stench in twitter feeds, it read:
Quote from: Trump Tweet
The NFL has all sorts of rules and regulations. The only way out for them is to set a rule that you can't kneel during our National Anthem!
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 26, 2017, 11:47:34 AM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.


There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Can you be more specific? Which statements were trolling?  Also, your earlier post assumes the people upset about President Trump for the Nazi-stuff are the same who are upset with him here. Glancing over this discussion only a couple folks even mentioned those events being related here.

This issue regarding the president's comments isn't just him "commenting on the national anthem" as you put it. He didn't just say "I like the anthem." He said that a "son of a bitch" player being fired for protesting would be a good thing.  Whether or not you like what the players are doing, it isn't illegal and the president is excitedly calling for their removal. People are having a problem with that.


It is about the national anthem, and RunBikeRun isn't wrong. The song itself is about the flag, and they pull a football field-sized flag out during the singing of the anthem. It's kinda hard to miss.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 11:52:57 AM
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 11:56:00 AM

The anthem is just a representation of the refusal to give up even though the fort was bombarded throughout the night. The author of the song was telling the captives below in the boat that the american flag was still flying, i.e.; they had not given up.
well... not quite.  The words to the Star Spangled Banner (aka the"National Anthem") were composed as a poem by Francis Scott Key during the war of 1812 as he sat on a ship in the Baltimore harbor while the British shelled Ft. McHenry.
It was set to music later, and there's no evidence Key ever intended it to be a song (let along an anthem) when he composed it. His brother first linked his poem to a popular song (already written).  It didn't officially become the national anthem for another 100+ years. 

Fun fact - the part that is sung during the National Anthem is only the first of four stanzas.  Each ends with the line: O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 11:59:33 AM

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 26, 2017, 12:03:48 PM
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 12:06:15 PM

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country

We are not disagreeing. I said the anthem itself, as in the words contained, their meaning at the time etc. No biggie. Our practice of standing is weird, other than it is better for audibility(is that word?) to stand while singing. So maybe that is where the practice came from.

Every country has national anthems....what is your point? If I were in Denmark or some other European(whereever RBR is from) country I would stand or take some other respectful position, just wouldn't sing the words etc.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Hedge_87 on September 26, 2017, 12:06:54 PM

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country

I don't want to get this too off topic but I think if I was ever in another country and their anthem was being played at an event I was at. I would stand out of respect for my host (is that what you mean?). Unless of course I was there unwilling and then I would probably be forced to stand at gunpoint or something.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 12:11:49 PM
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.


Ahhhh would you rather they protest behind closed doors, in a quiet manner as to not disturb neighbors? 

The definition of a protest is to express disaproval. The athletes are expressing their disaproval that America is the land of the "free" for everyone in it, while the anthem is being performed. That's as American as it can get.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 26, 2017, 12:30:40 PM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.
I'm trying to figure out how to say you're missing the point, but I think Toque explained it as well as I can.

Your post is not relevant. This has nothing to do with Trump commenting on the anthem, your comment really has me confused.

Any who, I can't speak for everyone but I would be against any president calling for someone to be punished for nonviolent protest.

Edit: One other thing, a lot of Trump supporters are upset about this, it's not just his opponents. Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones, vetererans and current military. Pretty much just diehard supporters, some over nationalistic muricans, and the WH are backing him.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 12:36:39 PM

Any who, I can't speak for everyone but I would be against any president calling for someone to be punished for nonviolent protest.
^This.  Several posters have already made this point up-thread, but it bears repeating.  The big "D" here is that the president is verbally attacking peaceful protesters and calling on their employer to fire them.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 12:57:54 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: LDoon on September 26, 2017, 01:04:07 PM
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.

Do you not see a difference between the POTUS disapproving of a form of protest that occurs during a national anthem, and the POTUS calling the protesters sons of bitches and saying they should be fired? 

It's easy enough to assert a belief about the national anthem being an important song and any disagreeing with actions that detract. (E.g., imagine a statement from any of the other 44 presidents).  Literally being the head of the federal government and calling for punishment of U.S. citizens participating in a peaceful protest because you disagree with the form of the protest is reprehensible.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 26, 2017, 01:04:37 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I think you mean conservatives fall for convenient lies. They certainly are not doing much about getting their policies in place.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 01:10:31 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I mean, yes, Trump won this election, but Democrats won the last two. So what does that have to do with this particular topic?  To bring this back around, what's your take on the "take a knee" protest?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 26, 2017, 01:15:41 PM
But... conservatives ... get their policies in place.

I know this is OT, but had to do it - http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/health-care-republican-senate-vote/index.html
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 26, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place struggle to implement policies. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

FTFY. Totally off topic but as a reminder, Clinton mopped the floor with Trump in popular vote. I agree though folks still need to get out and vote and those that don't should. I disagree about less protesting. The election is over and all we have now to combat Trump's assault on the Constitution is protesting.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I think you mean conservatives fall for convenient lies. They certainly are not doing much about getting their policies in place.

I think conservatives generally get their policies in place. Look at the tax rates. Look at the gerrymandering. Look at military spending. Look at criminal sentencing. Look at union busting. On top of this conservatives have shifted the entire political spectrum over the last 20-30 years to the right. Democrats nowadays hold positions that were solidly Republican/conservative 20 years ago (it's only now starting to shift a bit).

All of this is happening because liberals are too busy quibbling over the cause du jour than having any coherent strategy to win elections. And you can say Trump is an idiot (and I believe he generally behaves idiotically) but liberals love taking the bait. This most recent tweet is an excellent example.

I mean, yes, Trump won this election, but Democrats won the last two. So what does that have to do with this particular topic?  To bring this back around, what's your take on the "take a knee" protest?

I think that Democrats won the last two presidential elections because they had an oustanding, once in a generation candidate and who won't easily be replicated. Democrats, demographics-wise and issues-wise should be crushing republicans, but they just don't vote.

What is has to do with this topic is what I wrote above. The take a knee tweet was a clear play by the President to bait liberals into a nothing issue. I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 01:26:59 PM
But... conservatives ... get their policies in place.

I know this is OT, but had to do it - http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/health-care-republican-senate-vote/index.html

The best thing that could happen to republicans is that they fail to repeal/replace the ACA. This way they can still blame their favorite demon, Obama, for health care. The base will be riled up to primary out republicans by going to their right, and even if they don't primary out so-called RINOs republicans fall in line and will come out to vote for republicans even if they are RINOs.

Imagine they passed the repeal/replace? It would be a disaster for replubicans because the replacement is so terrible that their electorate would be forced to admit they fucked up health care this time.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: simonsez on September 26, 2017, 01:33:37 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.
Very true and reminds me of the famous scene in the first episode of The Newsroom when Jeff Daniels' character goes off on how liberals are losers. 

However, more conservatives are dying off than liberals generally so we'll probably have less complaining about kneeling and other peaceful protests moving forward as the country becomes more blue.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 01:40:15 PM
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 01:53:22 PM
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Cwadda on September 26, 2017, 02:04:16 PM
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

I think this is where the direction of this thread is heading. Not so much whether taking a knee is disrespectful; rather, discussing the effectiveness of such actions. I have no objection to the act of taking a knee. It's a peaceful form of protest, which should always be encouraged over alternate violent methods. How effective is actually taking a knee?  Can't say I know the answer to this question.  It certainly gets people talking, which is a good thing(?), though I still question the productivity of #takeaknee to tangible results.  Good points dividendman.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 26, 2017, 02:11:37 PM
Well, it certainly got people talking, which was the goal.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 26, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
Well, it certainly got people talking, which was the goal.

Trump the facilitator?


lol, couldn't resist.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 26, 2017, 02:13:57 PM
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone]/b] is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.


Ahhhh would you rather they protest behind closed doors, in a quiet manner as to not disturb neighbors? 

The definition of a protest is to express disaproval. The athletes are expressing their disaproval that America is the land of the "free" for everyone in it, while the anthem is being performed. That's as American as it can get.

Me? No. If you're going to protest, it doesn't do much good behind closed doors. I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about the people you were calling out.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 26, 2017, 02:58:22 PM
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 26, 2017, 03:50:53 PM
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 26, 2017, 04:03:56 PM
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 04:05:28 PM
es, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting. I didn't ever suggest we "sit idly by" I suggest doing something that has actual impacts rather than just doing something that makes you feel good but results in nothing.

Saying I support the #takeaknee or retweeting it might make me feel good but it doesn't advance anything. It's a lazy way to pretend you're doing something. The civil rights movement accomplished so much because so many put themselves in harms way to advance a righteous cause. Not only that but they lobbied and influenced elected leaders to change policy. If it was only black athletes resting on a knee nothing would have changed.

Policy and elections don't fix racism, that's true. What does fix it? Retweets? Resting on a knee? I was never suggesting they would "fix racism" but they can start change so less actual police violence occurs, isn't that the goal?

I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 26, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
es, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting. I didn't ever suggest we "sit idly by" I suggest doing something that has actual impacts rather than just doing something that makes you feel good but results in nothing.

Saying I support the #takeaknee or retweeting it might make me feel good but it doesn't advance anything. It's a lazy way to pretend you're doing something. The civil rights movement accomplished so much because so many put themselves in harms way to advance a righteous cause. Not only that but they lobbied and influenced elected leaders to change policy. If it was only black athletes resting on a knee nothing would have changed.

Policy and elections don't fix racism, that's true. What does fix it? Retweets? Resting on a knee? I was never suggesting they would "fix racism" but they can start change so less actual police violence occurs, isn't that the goal?

I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.

Plenty of people have been doing all that, as well. Right down to the firehoses, or being run over, or ...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Telecaster on September 26, 2017, 04:50:24 PM

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.

Colin Kaepernick doesn't have a job, but Blake Bortles does.  There is quite a bit of personal risk, at least there was at first.  It cost Kaepernick millions.   However, Trump gave everyone cover to join the protests without repercussions, so there is that. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 26, 2017, 05:08:11 PM
I found the following commentary from conservative writer Jennifer Rubin pertinent to this discussion:

Quote from: Jennifer Rubin
Those who get caught up in the style of the marchers’ hats or the type of kneeling (Before or after the anthem is fine, but by josh no more!) miss the point. Preserving a democracy with engaged citizenry is not afternoon tea time. It is sometimes noisy, controversial, even impolite because that is how democracies are. Free citizens express themselves in ways that other free citizens don’t like; they argue about it. How extraordinary is that?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 26, 2017, 06:25:11 PM
Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting.

First off nice straw-man. Your original statement was "I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere." Protest are the hallmark of change when it comes to civil rights and I provided distinct examples. You can't vote away racism. Secondly when you are still fighting for the same cause it's an absolute equivalence. They are protesting in their own way. MLK used a microphone. Rosa Parks used a bus. Kaepernick and others are using a football stadium.

Quote
I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

I didn't compare anything especially not millionaires. Your continued reference to them as millionaires instead of actual people is deplorable. They are people, not objects that can be bought and commanded. Stop bringing up money as if it should have some say in their moral actions.

And oh, being called a "son of a bitch" by the President and telling owners they should be fired along with the vast amount of death threats, yeah not quite a forcible removable from a bus (arguably worse). And the folks who have lost loved ones to excessive and unnecessary police violence might contend your point as well.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on September 26, 2017, 07:09:06 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 07:10:26 PM
OK. I am completely wrong.

We liberals should continue to:

1) Treat everything as equally bad when we protest and use language. Me calling NFL players millionaires is deplorable. White folks wearing native american headdresses is deplorable. Half of the people voting for Trump are deplorable. Trump calling NFL millionaires players sons of bitches is deplorable. Cops shooting unarmed black folks is deplorable. It's all the same now that I think about it.
2) Use famous hollywood millionaire actors and professional athletes to be the mouthpieces of our protests because the medium doesn't really matter. They are totally relateable and can influence people to join our cause. It will be just as effective as using people from the middle class or blue-collar workers who have been recently abused by the police.
3) Not focus on specific electoral outcomes because "creating awareness" is the goal unto itself

The above will definitely rally the uneducated masses to our liberal causes and allow us the electoral victories we need to start making the legal and policy changes necessary to have a more fair society.

P.S. I just saw WhiteTrashCash's post - ridiculous! The protests changed everything and these current protests by rich stars will have an even greater change - you'll see!
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: scottish on September 26, 2017, 08:15:51 PM
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.

Protests socialize ideas.   Some gather speed and become accepted.   Some don't.   It's a long process.    M. Musk's way is much faster, but requires a much more exceptional person or group of people to execute.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 08:17:29 PM

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

 It's extremely disheartening to read your comments regarding the protests against the Vietnam war and how they did jack squat. Truly awful. No, the protester did not stop the war right then and there, nor did they make crooked-ass Nixon bring back the troops instantly, but it was something they believed in and it was something some of them gave their lives for. Yes, the war continued for another 4-5 years but to say it did jack squat it's incredibly short minded. 

What would have happened if the protests hadn't started and people just fell in line with the bullshit Nixon was slinging?   


It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

Fuck Elon Musk. He's only able to do what he's doing because he's a multi-billionaire. Sorry but for normal people like me/us, passing the information, teaching the next generation, donating to a cause/organization, emailing your local government and voting per your morals is ALL you can do. If I had billions, then yeah, I could do as Elon Musk is doing.  So to say he's the ONLY one doing anything is complete bullshit.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.

Same as above. You speculate that the athletes kneeling in protest are not doing something else. I know Collin Kaepernick donated a million dollars of his own money to support his cause and it's currently blacklisted from the NFL for his opinion/protest. There was a list with the money donated by athletes to the organizations they believe in. So yeah, they are doing something.

Then our idiotic president has the balls to call him a son of a bitch and to ask the NFL to fire the other players from protesting. What the fuck kind of a country does he want for us? One where we can't voice our displeasure because his insane ego can't take it?

 

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Big Boots Buddha on September 26, 2017, 08:39:42 PM
What Trump did is simple A-B testing. Hes done it again and again, so Im not sure how it has gone over such an intelligent crowd, but here it goes.

Trump picks a topic, such as transgender in the military. Says its bad. 1/3 of the country flips out and says soldiers should blah blah blah, its their right. I was actually not allowed to be a soldier because I couldn't hear incredibly high frequency sounds that you probably lose after bootcamp and putting your ears next to guns all day, but whatever.

1/3 against transgender, 1/3 for transgender, middle 1/3 watches as for transgender get into huge uproar. Generally, average American in small town wherever thinks its probably not someones right to be transgender in the military.

So the left is throwing all its political capital against something that makes it look bad. All trump had to do is send a tweet.

Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

Again, Trump just sends a tweet or makes a remark, Left does all the heavy lifting for him. The city dwelling, highly educated DINK, feminist, Lesbian/Gay crowd isn't going to vote for Trump anyway. But they draw a line in the sand and say, FUCK AMERICA, and tell the undecided voter, you either pick team FUCK AMERICA or you pick standing for the flag seems ok. My guess is that many people will not choose against the flag. If you look at the NYtimes/Amazonpost bubble, sure, Trump is an idiot, but they say that everyday. They also were 99.999% sure he would lose the election, so its hardly damning.

None of this cost Trump a cent. Its how he won and probably will continue to do well.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 26, 2017, 08:47:21 PM
What Trump did is simple A-B testing. Hes done it again and again, so Im not sure how it has gone over such an intelligent crowd, but here it goes.

Trump picks a topic, such as transgender in the military. Says its bad. 1/3 of the country flips out and says soldiers should blah blah blah, its their right. I was actually not allowed to be a soldier because I couldn't hear incredibly high frequency sounds that you probably lose after bootcamp and putting your ears next to guns all day, but whatever.

1/3 against transgender, 1/3 for transgender, middle 1/3 watches as for transgender get into huge uproar. Generally, average American in small town wherever thinks its probably not someones right to be transgender in the military.

So the left is throwing all its political capital against something that makes it look bad. All trump had to do is send a tweet.

Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

Again, Trump just sends a tweet or makes a remark, Left does all the heavy lifting for him. The city dwelling, highly educated DINK, feminist, Lesbian/Gay crowd isn't going to vote for Trump anyway. But they draw a line in the sand and say, FUCK AMERICA, and tell the undecided voter, you either pick team FUCK AMERICA or you pick standing for the flag seems ok. My guess is that many people will not choose against the flag. If you look at the NYtimes/Amazonpost bubble, sure, Trump is an idiot, but they say that everyday. They also were 99.999% sure he would lose the election, so its hardly damning.

None of this cost Trump a cent. Its how he won and probably will continue to do well.


Very true ;)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 26, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Well, if standing up for what is right makes us look bad, this country is pretty screwed.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: dividendman on September 26, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Well, if standing up for what is right makes us look bad, this country is pretty screwed.

Yes, but the point Big Boots Buddha is making, and I was trying to make, is that people aren't like you. Most people are not educated, most people don't spend time on internet forums discussing politics and the morality of a meritocracy (another thread). Most people are just trying to get by and a lot are struggling. We can't assume everyone should have our sensibilities and act as if that was true. We need to act in a manner that will engage them on the plane they are on because that's how we can persuade them. Ultimately, we need their help to change the country for the better, so we need to communicate with them effectively, not belittle them for not grasping our positions or pushing them away by taking nuanced positions on the American flag because that's the "right" way to go.

If the previous election taught us anything it is that the electorate is not intelligent and cannot grasp nuanced political positions - let's learn that lesson please?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: former player on September 27, 2017, 01:12:19 AM
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 27, 2017, 04:46:13 AM
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.

Yep. It's ridiculous as are the military displays. Of course it wasn't always this way. Hell they disrespect the flag every time they bring it out on the field and display it horizontally. Yet no one seems to care. Ironic? Kneeling is just another way to protest. And a fantastic one at that. The whole country is talking about it. Many of these players are certainly bringing awareness and advocating off the field as well. Kudos to them all around. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 27, 2017, 05:53:41 AM
Bob Costas weighs in on a ~15 minute interview on CNN.  Many good points made, several echoed upthread

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Poundwise on September 27, 2017, 06:50:19 AM
Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

This wasn't about protesting the flag. It's about protesting the racism that dishonors the flag and our country.

Following video from Dallas sportscaster Dale Hansen is very on-point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 27, 2017, 07:20:43 AM
Then you get this -
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/09/geauga_sheriff_prohibits_deput.html

"Geauga County, Ohio. Sheriff prohibits deputies from working Browns games over protest during anthem."

Sheriff's quote,
"I'm concerned when the main act stands in front of the crowd, before the game even starts, and commits a blatant disrespectful act towards our flag, our Country, our Veterans and our first responders," Hildenbrand's memo said. "If they do not have respect for us and our Country only bad things will come of that. We will not be a part of these activities."


I don't understand how this is in any way shape or form, a disrespectful act towards the flag/anthem. Closed minded people should not be in a position of power.



Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 27, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.

Yep. It's ridiculous as are the military displays. Of course it wasn't always this way. Hell they disrespect the flag every time they bring it out on the field and display it horizontally. Yet no one seems to care. Ironic? Kneeling is just another way to protest. And a fantastic one at that. The whole country is talking about it. Many of these players are certainly bringing awareness and advocating off the field as well. Kudos to them all around.

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.

I'm sure all of these Captain America wannabes are the same ones on their phone during the anthem, finding a beer, eating a hot dog, with an American flag pair of swim trunks, or any other number of violations that "disrespect" the flag.  But no one blew the racist dog whistle for them on those violations so they didn't care.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 27, 2017, 07:35:18 AM

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.


One of the interesting points made by Dan Costas (link above) is how, at sporting events, the flag and the anthem has become inextricably linked to the military. Without a doubt members of our armed forces make sacrifices for our country, but they are not the only patriots, they are not the only ones who's work furthers our ideals. Yet when the flag is brought out an announcement is made to "please rise in support of the men and women of our armed forces". It's almost always accompanied in pro-sports with uniformed members of our armed forces.
If someone kneels for whatever the reason there's a chorus that he is disrespecting the military, regardless of the reason behind the gesture. Likewise, we never see nobel laureats, NGOs or teachers honored (or "disrespected") during this ritual.

in sum: the flag and anthem has become symbolic of the military at the expense of the broader nation.
That concerns me, as each branch already has their own flag and song/hymn.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 27, 2017, 07:41:39 AM
Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

Was your head intentionally or unintentionally in the sand on this?

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

The original protester was 49ers QB Colin Kaepernick, who started the movement last year and was joined by teammate Eric Reid.  They met with Army vets to discuss how to peacefully and respectfully show that they were not happy with the way minorities were/are being treated by police officers who largely escape egregious acts of violence without consequence.

104 unarmed black Americans were shot and killed by police officers in 2015.  That's 5 times more likely than a white American to suffer the same fate.  Of those 104 cases, only 13 saw officers face charges.

So Kaepernick started the kneeling protest as a sign of a respect to the veterans, but also to call out injustices faced by minorities.  He also "does something useful" and "puts his money where his mouth is" by donating $100K/month to charities and organizations who are helping oppressed communities.  He is, by these accounts, a model athlete and a model American.  He's using his platform to protest but also getting involved with these communities.

He led his team to the Super Bowl not that long ago, but largely because of his protests (when it was just him and a teammate) he was ridiculed around the league and became "too toxic" to hire.  He is without a job this season - no team even wants him as a backup.  Many have cited the "circus" that would come with hiring him, even though he has said he would not continue the protest this season.

For me there are two issues here - 1) Conservatives never seem happy with a protest if it's done on behalf of black people.  Was there this much backlash against the Women's March?  What about the Right to Life march?  Here's a peaceful protest that isn't upsetting traffic, your personal life, etc.  It's literally the most non-invasive protest you could have, but look at how conservatives (or at least #cult45 members) are responding.  The faux outrage is astounding.  And all because they got triggered by a racist dog whistle - this wasn't even a blip on the national radar until #45 decided to step in.

And 2) The NFL is a bit hypocritical here.  They're standing "in unity" now and embracing open protests if teams/players choose to do so.  Yet they were silent when Kaepernick did it by himself last year and these same owners - some who joined players on the field this weekend - refuse to hire him now.  I watch some NFL here and there - you can't tell me Kaepernick is worse than whatever the heck the Colts are attempting to do at QB without Andrew Luck.  He's one of the 64 best QBs on talent alone (32 teams - starter & backup) but no one hired him.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 27, 2017, 07:50:25 AM

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.


One of the interesting points made by Dan Costas (link above) is how, at sporting events, the flag and the anthem has become inextricably linked to the military. Without a doubt members of our armed forces make sacrifices for our country, but they are not the only patriots, they are not the only ones who's work furthers our ideals. Yet when the flag is brought out an announcement is made to "please rise in support of the men and women of our armed forces". It's almost always accompanied in pro-sports with uniformed members of our armed forces.
If someone kneels for whatever the reason there's a chorus that he is disrespecting the military, regardless of the reason behind the gesture. Likewise, we never see nobel laureats, NGOs or teachers honored (or "disrespected") during this ritual.

in sum: the flag and anthem has become symbolic of the military at the expense of the broader nation.
That concerns me, as each branch already has their own flag and song/hymn.

Bush #43 really started this - or I should say, it come to prominence while he was President in the post-9/11 era.  I guess I do remember going to ball games and stuff prior to 2001 where the anthem was sung, but that was about it.  No honored military member or vet involved in the ceremonies, no additional forced patriotism.  Just singing the anthem...and a lot of people probably didn't even pay attention (heck they still don't...getting food, going to the restroom, etc.).

But after 9/11 and when the war started in Iraq, sports took on even more "patriotism."  More military flyovers, vets throwing out the first pitch or being honored, God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch, etc. etc.  And because it was branded as "patriotism" everyone went with it and supported it.

I almost want to spend the money to go to a game and sit for the anthem and see what people would say to me haha but that's not mustachian.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 27, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
Yes it is the slow creep of what becomes the norm.  The "new normal" if you will, to borrow a pop culture phrase, which was all the rage after 9/11.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware person, but I admit I was brought to task by the comment in this thread for an earlier poster about how people from other countries look at our attachment to the flag and scratch their heads.  This was a bit of a surprise to me, and more importantly made me aware of how easy it is to assume that everyone does or thinks the way I do.  While I know that is patently false, it is a trap that was proven easy to fall in to.  I only see other countries anthems and flags when I watch the Olympics and they seem to revere the flag, stand at attention and sing and tear up just as I do as am American with my flag, so it threw me for a loop to hear the opinion voiced that they are not thinking about their flag and anthem the same way we do here in the US.

DarkandStormy's comment about 2009 being a turning point for the NFL is analyzed on snopes.com pretty well along with some other places, and this is not entirely accurate either.  The league did start receiving money then, yes, but players for most games were already out on the field for the national anthem, and the change that is referenced was only put in place for prime time games and that was to help with TV not with patriotism.  As always it is easy for us to conflate things that fit into our confirmation bias.  Let's analyze the situation with an objective lens and not sling around things without doing some research. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Travis on September 27, 2017, 09:43:31 AM


And 2) The NFL is a bit hypocritical here.  They're standing "in unity" now and embracing open protests if teams/players choose to do so.  Yet they were silent when Kaepernick did it by himself last year and these same owners - some who joined players on the field this weekend - refuse to hire him now.  I watch some NFL here and there - you can't tell me Kaepernick is worse than whatever the heck the Colts are attempting to do at QB without Andrew Luck.  He's one of the 64 best QBs on talent alone (32 teams - starter & backup) but no one hired him.
People can be fickle when money is on the line. It wasn't a problem until it became one, and vice versa.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 27, 2017, 10:44:16 AM
Bob Costas weighs in on a ~15 minute interview on CNN.  Many good points made, several echoed upthread

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn)

Fantastic analysis. Thanks for sharing. Costas is always very articulate and intelligent in his analysis of various events.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Laura33 on September 27, 2017, 12:30:49 PM
Disparate thoughts:

Standing vs. kneeling for the Star Spangled Banner is self-evidently symbolic.  If it weren't -- if it didn't mean anything -- then people would have just ignored Kaepernick last year, and he'd still be employed. 

The First Amendment applies only to government action, not the actions of private citizens.  E.g., this is why the Nazis get to march: because if a city has a permit system for demonstrations, it cannot discriminate based on the content of the speech in question.  There are special rules for schools:  because they are both a government function AND mandatory for kids to attend, they can generally limit speech only to the extent to maintain order in the classroom and protect the welfare of the students and the like.  So for example, they can require kids to sit quietly, but they cannot make them say the Pledge.

A private entity is generally free to institute whatever rules it wants to for its employees, unless those rules run afoul of some other constitutionally-protected right.  There are many stories of people being fired based on postings on social media, completely unrelated to their work.  In the NFL's case, these obligations are built into highly detailed contracts that are intensely negotiated.  No player should be surprised about his obligations, or the potential ramifications of disregarding them.  The owners, in turn, have the full discretion to respond however they like; they can applaud the players' actions, they can ignore them and hope the issue goes away, or they can fire/discipline the players for breaking the rules.  That's part of free enterprise.  And in turn, they can accept the business consequences that come with whatever decision they make.

It is entirely inappropriate for the highest representative of the US government to attempt to influence how a business responds to its employees' speech.  Whether this is significant enough to amount to a violation of the First Amendment, I don't know.  But it is completely counter to the spirit of the First Amendment -- not to mention the longstanding core principle of the Republican Party that free enterprise is best and the market will take care of itself.

The NFL is very much in a bind here.  It is being pummeled by a series of issues that are making many people less and less comfortable with the game, from the TBI issues to domestic violence to performance-enhancing drugs, etc.  At the same time, much of its core fan base is very patriotic, in the "don't mess with the flag" way.  So if it allows the protests to continue, it alienates its core base; OTOH, if it clamps down, it further alienates many liberals who were already beginning to wonder about these other issues.

To my mind, the fact that the protest is coming from "millionaire" football players gives it even greater impact and meaning.  These men are predominantly minority, and have busted their humps their whole lives to make it, many from incredibly difficult circumstances.  Through the result of these extraordinary efforts, they have achieved the pinnacle of fame and fortune in their chosen profession (which, in turn, is very highly valued/respected by the populace as a whole).  And they are telling us that they still do not feel equal in our society -- that on the field they are viewed as heroes and role models, but when they get in their car and drive home a little too fast or have a tail light go out, they still have to fear being shot because a police officer involved overreacted upon seeing a big black guy in the driver's seat.  That matters.  If these guys can do everything asked of them, be hugely successful and earn so much respect from so many people, and still not be safe -- still be treated like the big scary "other" -- can any black man in America truly feel equal?

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.  Last year, we were talking about one or two players, which meant that a lot of the discussion focused on the actual cause they were demonstrating for.  In one tweet, Trump managed to both energize his base and change the conversation to focus on him; the actual issues being protested are now completely lost in the shouting.  Trump's political popularity is based on polarization, the sense by many that they are losing control of their own country*; continuing to focus the public discourse on polarizing issues, casting everything as an us-vs-them fight, reinforces his political strength, even if he is objectively wrong under the Constitution.  And now his opponents are arguing about the First Amendment, instead of about black kids getting shot down by police, thus relieving pressure that might otherwise have focused on fixing the real problems that are out there.  It's all very meta -- someone protest a real thing; the government pushes back; and soon we are arguing about the protest and the pushback instead of anything that actually matters on the ground.  Deflect and distract has been a fantastic political strategy since time immemorial.

There was an earlier comment about something like "the last 50 years of social engineering" having failed.  That bothered me, because it implied that many efforts that grew from the civil rights movement were part of some sort of liberal experiment foisted on the populace by an overreaching government, and that since it has now failed, can we please just leave things alone and get on with it?**  Starting the analysis 50 or 60 years ago -- i.e., the only era that most of us here have ever known -- ignores the dynamics that were set in play over hundreds of years before.  I read a very good article, which of course I cannot now find, that explained the St. Louis protests via historical development patterns:  specifically, that for many decades, new housing developments were segregated; that the Supreme Court outlawed these kinds of covenants in the 1940s; and that the white developments responded to this order by incorporating themselves into scores of tiny townships that specifically excluded their black neighbors.  This means that there are today many, many separate governmental jurisdictions -- some separated only by a few miles -- each of which requires schools, police, fire department, and other services.  But because of the historic decisions back when segregation was legal and first outlawed, the resources were generally located in the white townships.  So the white towns got good schools and good budgets, and the black areas got crappy schools and underfunded budgets.  As a result, many of the black towns resorted to draconian enforcement of traffic laws as a way to make ends meet, with fines of multiple hundreds of dollars over the smallest infractions, together with ever-accruing late fees; there were also significant concerns raised whether these citizens even received notice of their trial dates, which were frequently set in places like the HS gym, and which would typically work through hundreds of citations in a day -- little evidence or opportunity to mount a defense, just guilty, guilt, guilty, here's your fine, go over there to work out a payment plan.  And when the poor citizenry couldn't pay the ever-compounding fees, they'd lose their license, and thus lose their ability to keep their job, and thus be stuck even deeper in poverty.  And if Trump's election showed us anything, it's that people who feel powerless and feel like their government is giving them the shaft get angry.

So if you start the clock ticking in, say, 1960, it's easy to frame up the issue as agitated, pushy blacks who should just get jobs and shut up like all the white people do; after all, segregation is illegal, job discrimination is illegal, so what's the problem?  But if you go back 50 years before that, it becomes clear that those last 50 years represent an effort to erase some of the harm done by the prior decades, and that those efforts have failed not because the government was messing in stuff it should leave alone, but because the efforts were too insignificant to fix the real root causes of the current inequality.

*Which, of course, comes from the privileged assumption that they in fact had and continue to have the right to maintain that control in perpetuity.

** That may not have been the intent here, and I may be reading too much into it.  But I have heard similar thoughts by many comfortable white folks like me, so I wanted to address that.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 27, 2017, 12:50:23 PM

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.

It may have worked out to be political genius, but you're giving him entirely too much credit here.  The man is a bumbling idiot.  There was no "strategy" involved in the move other than he was at a rally in Alabama (the election's over, Donnie) and wanted to pander to his white nationalist base.

(There are other theories that he's had it out for the NFL since they killed his USFL endeavor or something like that.)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 27, 2017, 01:42:26 PM

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.

It may have worked out to be political genius, but you're giving him entirely too much credit here.  The man is a bumbling idiot.  There was no "strategy" involved in the move other than he was at a rally in Alabama (the election's over, Donnie) and wanted to pander to his white nationalist base.

(There are other theories that he's had it out for the NFL since they killed his USFL endeavor or something like that.)
Thank you Laura33 for the in depth take on the situation.

I do think this was intentional as many of his distractions and polarizing comments are but not necessarily genius. To people with a conscience and empathy these tactics seem clever because we may not have thought to manipulate people in that way but to those with narcissistic personality disorder and/or psychopaths these things can be fairly obvious, especially since he's already used this tactic to great success.

And I don't describe him as a psychopath and having NPD as an insult, I use these terms in the technical sense because I am confident that he is affected at some level. In fact a disproportionate number of politicians, executives and leaders are lacking of empathy. Not that I have any experience with the personality disorders, I just read articles & studies.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: stashing_it on September 28, 2017, 12:31:44 AM
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 28, 2017, 04:14:51 AM
You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage

It is my understanding that the political parties have evolved over the last 150 years and instead of looking at it as Democratic and Republican, view it as which parties were more progressive and conservative at the time. The sources you listed lean conservative and may be considered biased.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 28, 2017, 05:17:54 AM
You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage

It is my understanding that the political parties have evolved over the last 150 years and instead of looking at it as Democratic and Republican, view it as which parties were more progressive and conservative at the time. The sources you listed lean conservative and may be considered biased.

Yep, that's true. Rather strange to think about. A great example is the environment as Nixon (a Republican at the time) created the EPA and NOAA. Both agencies routinely despised by current Republicans as their attitude towards the environment has shifted. Ok, sorry off topic.

 Anywho yes looking at long ago history (even 40 years) and putting Republican and Democrat labels on things is a bad ideal. 

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on September 28, 2017, 06:35:54 AM
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.


This is not a political party line issue, and we're trying to avoid this thread turning into one.

https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

The issue here is that white people (not any specific party) are generally, on average, put off by black people's demonstrations and protests.  They feel, by large margins that the protests "hurt Negroes", "Negroes should stop" etc.  Even while their goals are incomplete, even while inequality is acknowledged, it would just be nice if they would stop bothering us about it where we can see it.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: megaschnauzer on September 28, 2017, 06:57:27 AM
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: craiglepaige on September 28, 2017, 07:08:04 AM
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?

Of course not.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on September 28, 2017, 07:11:04 AM
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 28, 2017, 07:12:21 AM
You need to stop saying "Negroes." It is not the n-word but it is still inappropriate to use. Stop.


To yours and others larger point, I don't remember anyone over the last five pages of discussion say it is wrong or unpatriotic to take a knee. I wouldn't do it, but it does not bother me or make me uncomfortable either. Seems like this is turning into a talking past one another thread. What is our goal here? What are the issues we are trying to hash out?

1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

Some other aspects that are more straightforward but other people may want clarification; I left those out.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on September 28, 2017, 07:20:06 AM
I think a lot of people are saying that it's disrespectful to take a knee during the anthem. I don't know the proportion on this forum or this thread, but definitely a large number of Americans feel this way, which is why people are pissed off. It'd be disrespectful to take a knee because you oppose police brutality, because you oppose NAFTA, because you oppose ACA, because you oppose bombing weddings in Pakistan, because...

They interpret it as a protest against America, not as a protest against what America is doing.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 28, 2017, 07:27:33 AM
You need to stop saying "Negroes." It is not the n-word but it is still inappropriate to use. Stop.


To yours and others larger point, I don't remember anyone over the last five pages of discussion say it is wrong or unpatriotic to take a knee. I wouldn't do it, but it does not bother me or make me uncomfortable either. Seems like this is turning into a talking past one another thread. What is our goal here? What are the issues we are trying to hash out?

1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

Some other aspects that are more straightforward but other people may want clarification; I left those out.

Negroes was used in this thread as part of a specific historic context, as it was the word used in the referred to polls in the 1960s.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: stashing_it on September 28, 2017, 07:41:53 AM
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.


This is not a political party line issue, and we're trying to avoid this thread turning into one.

https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

The issue here is that white people (not any specific party) are generally, on average, put off by black people's demonstrations and protests.  They feel, by large margins that the protests "hurt Negroes", "Negroes should stop" etc.  Even while their goals are incomplete, even while inequality is acknowledged, it would just be nice if they would stop bothering us about it where we can see it.

Toque.


I can get on board with not turning a thread into a party issue.   However I would also make take the stance that we should not be identifying a group of people as the bad guys who through out history have stood in the way of everything that has improved.

The post I directly responded to

Quote
Quote
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?

I made an assumption on what the poster meant, and as politely as I knew how pointed out a historical fact that in my opinion contradicted some of the assertion that there were a single group of people who have have been bad throughout history

In the 7 hours (midnight to 7 am local time U.S.) since I commented, 3 people called out my post for various types of "I don't think that what you are saying is completely accurate"    Those comments are probably fairly legitimate.   However my reply came 30 hours after the commenter I replied made a statement that throughout history there have been a group of people who have stood in the way of progress.   I was the first person to reply and say that I believe that kind of identification that there is one group of people who are always morally wrong is not correct.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 07:49:26 AM
I think a lot of people are saying that it's disrespectful to take a knee during the anthem. I don't know the proportion on this forum or this thread, but definitely a large number of Americans feel this way, which is why people are pissed off. It'd be disrespectful to take a knee because you oppose police brutality, because you oppose NAFTA, because you oppose ACA, because you oppose bombing weddings in Pakistan, because...

They interpret it as a protest against America, not as a protest against what America is doing.

Even IF it's disrespectful (and I really have a problem labeling it as such given that Kaepernick and Eric Reid met with a retired Green Beret last year and decided kneeling would show more respect for veterans vs. sitting on the bench) is it any more disrespectful than fans not removing hats, buying beer, going to the restroom, taking pictures on their phone, wearing American flag swim trunks, buying beer cans made up of the American flag logo, etc. etc.?  Did they boycot Budweiser for disrespecting the flag?  Or Old Navy for profiting off of the flag with shirts and shorts?  I mean come on...if you're going to be outraged here, at least be consistent with your faux outrage.

Honestly...who gives a ****?  So a few guys kneel instead of stand for 2 minutes before a game.  You're going to get outraged about THAT to the point of not enjoying the football games you used to enjoy watching but yet...divert no attention, time, etc. to police brutality against minorities?

People need to check themselves.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 07:58:02 AM
1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

1. No.  You can do whatever you want during the anthem.  U.S. flag code are only guidelines, not law.  You will not be arrested for kneeling, sitting, skipping, napping, etc. during the anthem.  In this context, at least as far as the original context of being respectful of veterans while trying to call out racial and social injustices, no it is not wrong.

2. The main issue was police brutality against minorities going unchecked (evidenced by the fact that 104 unarmed black people were shot and killed by police in 2015 - that's 5x higher than for unarmed white people.  Yet, of those 104 cases, only 13 ever saw charges filed against the officer).  No, I don't think there are simple solutions.  We've seen the rise in body cameras in some cities.  Some police departments have taken it upon themselves to conduct de-escalation training.  Largely, though, it is going to take a long time to deal with this issue and because it has more to do with a "mindset" it's going to be more difficult to change.

3. No.  Then again, most things #45 says are not appropriate by most civilized standards.  If you're a white nationalist then they seem totally fine.  But for the highest executive of this country to call players who don't stand for the anthem "sons of bitches" who should be "fired" is completely out of line.  I think most of that has been detailed here, so I won't re-hash that.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 08:05:54 AM


Quote
Quote
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?



Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: kamille on September 28, 2017, 08:09:45 AM
Because it is easier to understand the symbolic behavior of patriotism than the complexities of what true patriotism really means.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 08:15:11 AM
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

EDIT - poor pot shot taken.  Sorry.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 28, 2017, 08:59:11 AM
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?

Do they defend the Confederate flag while whining about disrespecting the national anthem?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 28, 2017, 08:59:24 AM
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 28, 2017, 09:06:46 AM
And for the record, I know someone who was a Trump voter, Trump supporter and definitely fits the demographic we're discussing and their reaction was, "C'mon Trump, why'd you have to go their. That's just dumb.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 09:11:17 AM
And for the record, I know someone who was a Trump voter, Trump supporter and definitely fits the demographic we're discussing and their reaction was, "C'mon Trump, why'd you have to go their. That's just dumb.

Yes, of course there are outliers.

Let's hope those people have the sense to re-evaluate their support.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.

Fair enough...I retract the statement.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 28, 2017, 09:18:53 AM
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.

Fair enough...I retract the statement.
We need more of this in these discussions :) I think we all say things we'd like to take back from time to time but very few ever do. More often heels are dug in until the subject changes.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 09:21:54 AM
Today in The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: SoundFuture on September 28, 2017, 09:32:59 AM
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 09:39:57 AM
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: simonsez on September 28, 2017, 09:41:09 AM
To those that feel an action or a protest does nothing, whether in the short term or long term - my question is (and this is rhetorical, not directed at anyone personally), how do you know it does nothing?

How do we know something wouldn't be worse if those "meaningless" actions hadn't started a conversation or inspired others in the past?  We don't.  Maybe the civil rights movement doesn't happen until the 1970s if earlier less important events hadn't transpired in a certain way?  Maybe, maybe not.

Let people speak their mind and listen (if you choose to) rather than hand waive it away because it's annoying or not important to you as you don't have to deal with whatever injustice someone different is talking about.  And don't detract from the issue by making it about something else (support of the military) or asking questions that aren't directly relevant (black on black crime, etc.) to what the action or protest represents. 

I think we're all *aware* of breast cancer now.  We are in that awareness phase with this topic now.  Hopefully we can all be aware about injustices involving black people and the police and down the road eventually (hopefully sooner than later) see more equitable human treatment.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 28, 2017, 09:44:53 AM
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead. 
I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: surfhb on September 28, 2017, 09:45:03 AM
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right.


Not even close.   People who were young adults during the civil rights era are running the country.  Several members of congress were staunch segregationist.    That attitude just doesn't disappear like magic.

I'd also like to add that cops shooting and incarcerating disproportionately amounts innocent  n**gers is nothing new....it's old as dirt.   We just get to see and hear the fun with all the cell phones and social media.    The story continues......deep seeded racism is alive and well in America
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: GuitarStv on September 28, 2017, 09:45:17 AM
Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?

I think the group you're looking for is the social conservatives.

By definition, this is the group that will stand in the way of social change.  They typically didn't like women voting, they wanted to keep their slaves, they didn't like inter-racial or gay marriage, like to control what two consenting adults can decide to do sex-wise, typically refuse to refer to a trans-gendered person by their preferred sexual identifier, they don't see any reason to change how current policing impacts minorities, they don't believe that women should be allowed to have abortions or access to birth control, they don't believe trans-gendered people should use the bathroom they want to, etc.

This group doesn't like social change, so has historically been on the wrong side of every social change issue that has come up.  There are (and have been) white, black, Republican, Democrat, Georgian, Californian, Left and Right Handed social conservatives.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on September 28, 2017, 10:13:28 AM
Today in The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
I think this kind of sarcasm might actually get through to some people. I don't know that the people who need this message read the Onion but still, kudos Richard Winowski.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: SoundFuture on September 28, 2017, 10:28:03 AM

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.

That attitude just doesn't disappear like magic.

That's exactly my point.  You need to deal with the people rather than write them off as imbeciles.

I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...

I'm not talking about congress.  I'm talking about the people of the United States that are torn and divided on the subject.  You might as well start talking about an assisted living center if you're going to talk about congress.  Legislation at the Federal level is just one thing that can happen but the state and local levels could just as easily step up.  My parents were too young to know what was going on with the Civil Rights Era. My wife's parents are too young to know what was going on either (and they're about 8 years older than my parents).  Most of our grandparents who would know much are dead. 

I don't believe that most people are innately evil. I do believe that a lot of people are mislead. I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm trying to give you a different way to think about it. Another tool for your toolbox if you will.  You need different methods for dealing with different people.  If all we do is collectively come to a general agreement that something is wrong and something must be done, which we can do on apparently every other issue even if we disagree on remedies (except maybe climate change), we'd be in a much better place than we are now.

I will gladly leave you all be, but I wanted to at least give you a chance to hear from someone who agrees with you on this issue while probably also thinking a lot differently than you do.  I hate seeing my friends get in arguments and part ways with each other over something as simple as recognizing the perpetual racism in the country (white and black friendships, which we need more than ever).
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 10:49:40 AM

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 28, 2017, 11:17:27 AM
I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...

I'm not talking about congress.  I'm talking about the people of the United States that are torn and divided on the subject.  You might as well start talking about an assisted living center if you're going to talk about congress.  Legislation at the Federal level is just one thing that can happen but the state and local levels could just as easily step up.  My parents were too young to know what was going on with the Civil Rights Era. My wife's parents are too young to know what was going on either (and they're about 8 years older than my parents).  Most of our grandparents who would know much are dead. 

Did you read what I wrote?  It's not just congress.  The people who developed their political ideologies* during the civil rights movement are very much alive. They vote more often than any other demographic and to return to the OP many of these people (socially conservative white males) are the very ones who are getting so angry at the protests.

*most people develop their political ideologies in their early 20s.  They are now in the 70s.
I'm sorry your grandparents died so young.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: megaschnauzer on September 28, 2017, 11:20:54 AM

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: simonsez on September 28, 2017, 11:46:35 AM
they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.
Was it an issue when the non-football aspects prior to kickoff were added to the broadcasts?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 11:49:00 AM

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: runbikerun on September 28, 2017, 12:11:27 PM
Yes it is the slow creep of what becomes the norm.  The "new normal" if you will, to borrow a pop culture phrase, which was all the rage after 9/11.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware person, but I admit I was brought to task by the comment in this thread for an earlier poster about how people from other countries look at our attachment to the flag and scratch their heads.  This was a bit of a surprise to me, and more importantly made me aware of how easy it is to assume that everyone does or thinks the way I do.  While I know that is patently false, it is a trap that was proven easy to fall in to.  I only see other countries anthems and flags when I watch the Olympics and they seem to revere the flag, stand at attention and sing and tear up just as I do as am American with my flag, so it threw me for a loop to hear the opinion voiced that they are not thinking about their flag and anthem the same way we do here in the US.

DarkandStormy's comment about 2009 being a turning point for the NFL is analyzed on snopes.com pretty well along with some other places, and this is not entirely accurate either.  The league did start receiving money then, yes, but players for most games were already out on the field for the national anthem, and the change that is referenced was only put in place for prime time games and that was to help with TV not with patriotism.  As always it is easy for us to conflate things that fit into our confirmation bias.  Let's analyze the situation with an objective lens and not sling around things without doing some research.

That may have been me mentioning the difference in how the flag is regarded outside the US. At the Olympics, and other international sporting events, you do indeed see plenty of national flags; however, in a large chunk of Europe, that's about the only time you'll see the national flag being flown outside a government building.

It's probably not a coincidence that there's a strong tradition in Europe (I don't have the exposure to other cultures to comment outside of Europe) of questioning whether your nation's history is, on balance, positive. The British, for example, have been debating the appropriate level of guilt for their colonial history for decades now, and consequently the Union Jack carries a very specific and negative connotation in a lot of situations. American discourse, by comparison, tends to start from the assumption that America is fundamentally a force for good, and that the national flag is an uncontroversial symbol of goodness.

That's not to say that what's going on in the States has no parallel on the other side of the Atlantic. There's an annual debate over the wearing of the poppy by footballers, and occasionally some less tolerant elements elect to abuse players who'd rather not commemorate anything to do with the British military. But compared to Kaepernick, it's a storm in a teacup.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: SoundFuture on September 28, 2017, 12:29:09 PM
they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

This is a lot of it. The military paying for all the extra hub-ub stuff is pretty new. It's become a part of the " 'merica " crowd's ethos (what I identified as civic religion before, which I believe is a lot of it).  I'll admit even though I believe in racial equality I knee jerked when Kaepernick first took a knee last year. I didn't understand exactly what it was but I knew I didn't like it. Then I heard him speak and I knew he was right. What someone thought was a real slick move by Trump to turn this into an issue about dishonoring the country, is going have backlash, and if he keeps that lid on the boiling the pot the pressure will eventually make it explode. Obama let the lid seal let off the excess pressure so other's could hear it without it blowing up, but Trump is trying to get everyone else to clamp it back down.

For me personally, I played football through college. It was the one place in the whole world where everyone is equal. Performance and game awareness is all that mattered. At first I was upset that someone would chose this venue, the one place we all gathered together without care for race or ethnicity and were genuinely equal, to make us stare down our past and current failures. But it's really the perfect place for it, because it's the place for me personally that I developed the relationships I have with most of my friends of color. I'd have never been around them enough to be real friends if it weren't for this.  I probably wouldn't have grown to empathize with their problems without this sport, without blood, sweat, and tears shed on the same turf working on common goals.  It's an example of how each of us has things to contribute, and how each of our natural and earned unique talents makes the team better.


Did you read what I wrote?  It's not just congress.  The people who developed their political ideologies* during the civil rights movement are very much alive. They vote more often than any other demographic and to return to the OP many of these people (socially conservative white males) are the very ones who are getting so angry at the protests.

*most people develop their political ideologies in their early 20s.  They are now in the 70s.
I'm sorry your grandparents died so young.

Sorry friend I didn't give you enough credit. They weren't too young, 80s and 90s (one in their 70s with a rare undiagnosed blood disorder), but I appreciate the sympathy.  I'll admit the weirdest situation I have now is I interact with a lot of older progressive white women (quite by happenstance). I'm so used to the "other side of the coin", it's a bit of a bizarro world for me. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 28, 2017, 01:01:44 PM
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.
Wrapping a flag around your head like so many bikers and others do with their do-rag is the one that really gets my goat.  Even having in on clothing has always been questionable.  You should not be wearing a flag.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on September 28, 2017, 01:04:57 PM
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.
Wrapping a flag around your head like so many bikers and others do with their do-rag is the one that really gets my goat.  Even having in on clothing has always been questionable.  You should not be wearing a flag.

Then there's this:

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 28, 2017, 01:13:55 PM
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.
Whenever they try to do that I just laugh at them because they never fly the confederate flag.  They use the battle flag of Virginia.  Never ever was the confederate flag.  Their to dense to understand their error and continue to rally behind something that isn't even the symbol of what they think they believe in.  Since it was just a banner from the army not sure how treasonous it is, but it's certainly in poor taste.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: MasterStache on September 28, 2017, 01:15:43 PM

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

Anthem is pre-game, not during the game. If you only care about the game then watch something else until it starts. Amazingly simple!!
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Laura33 on September 28, 2017, 01:16:14 PM
What someone thought was a real slick move by Trump to turn this into an issue about dishonoring the country, is going have backlash, and if he keeps that lid on the boiling the pot the pressure will eventually make it explode. Obama let the lid seal let off the excess pressure so other's could hear it without it blowing up, but Trump is trying to get everyone else to clamp it back down.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/opinions/what-trumps-gut-knows-about-the-nfl-controversy-jennings/index.html

I don't know this guy from Adam; for all I know, he could be an alt-right hack.*  But the poll he reports seems to suggest that Trump is just saying out loud what a large segment of American society believes.

Personally, I strongly disagree; to me, peacefully protesting is one of the most patriotic things you can do.  The right to self-government -- the right of the people to make our government what we want it to be -- is the most fundamental right granted in the Constitution.  That is precisely why the First Amendment protects free speech:  because those who speak out force us to ask what we really want our country to stand for.  Speaking, listening, protesting, and arguing about what our country should and shouldn't do are core American values and highly patriotic actions; stifling dissent is anti-American. 

But if almost 3 out of 4 Americans think that taking a knee is "unpatriotic," I am in a very small minority -- that "coastal elite" that everyone loves to disparage.  Which also means that public backlash is going to be a long time coming.

*I do think his objection to the protests (because the anthem is a "ritual that "reminds us that we are all, as Americans, in this together.") fundamentally misses the point:  the protests are specifically saying "you are not treating me as a full, equal American."  I can't think of a more effective way to say that than by refusing to participate in the weekly national bonding ritual. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 01:20:52 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 28, 2017, 01:27:23 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: SoundFuture on September 28, 2017, 01:32:50 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/opinions/what-trumps-gut-knows-about-the-nfl-controversy-jennings/index.html

I don't know this guy from Adam; for all I know, he could be an alt-right hack.*  But the poll he reports seems to suggest that Trump is just saying out loud what a large segment of American society believes.

Personally, I strongly disagree; to me, peacefully protesting is one of the most patriotic things you can do.  The right to self-government -- the right of the people to make our government what we want it to be -- is the most fundamental right granted in the Constitution.  That is precisely why the First Amendment protects free speech:  because those who speak out force us to ask what we really want our country to stand for.  Speaking, listening, protesting, and arguing about what our country should and shouldn't do are core American values and highly patriotic actions; stifling dissent is anti-American. 

But if almost 3 out of 4 Americans think that taking a knee is "unpatriotic," I am in a very small minority -- that "coastal elite" that everyone loves to disparage.  Which also means that public backlash is going to be a long time coming.

*I do think his objection to the protests (because the anthem is a "ritual that "reminds us that we are all, as Americans, in this together.") fundamentally misses the point:  the protests are specifically saying "you are not treating me as a full, equal American."  I can't think of a more effective way to say that than by refusing to participate in the weekly national bonding ritual.

Just so I'm clear, when I said backlash, I didn't mean a broad political type of backlash, I mean a race riot kind of backlash. 
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

Who cares...it still symbolizes a traitor.  By definition, it's unpatriotic.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: SoundFuture on September 28, 2017, 01:49:53 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

Who cares...it still symbolizes a traitor.  By definition, it's unpatriotic.

Regardless of our opinion on this one I think we can all agree that this is off-topic. :-)
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on September 28, 2017, 01:52:07 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: caracarn on September 28, 2017, 02:05:04 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.
None.  Because they are ignorant.

It just makes it easier for me to deal with them because it just makes not only their opinion but what they defend all align in their ignorance.  They can call you ignorant, but when asked to prove to you, their case falls apart.  Every time we run into one of these bozos we always ask them "Why are you waving the battle flag of Virginia?"  It's always worth the laugh when they have no clue and ask what you mean.

And to the earlier posters, yes, it's off topic, but on a forum that I at least gets the idiocy of thinking this is actually an official confederate flag I figure it was worth mentioning.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Laura33 on September 28, 2017, 02:13:17 PM
Just so I'm clear, when I said backlash, I didn't mean a broad political type of backlash, I mean a race riot kind of backlash.

Ah, yes.  I would argue we're already there.  We walked back from the brink a couple of years ago, but with nothing actually fixed, and officers continuing to be acquitted (and DOJ certainly no longer willing to investigate), I strongly suspect it's only a matter of time.

Which, I fear, would be viewed as a feature instead of a bug by some whose political lives are built on fear and polarization.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: hoping2retire35 on September 28, 2017, 03:11:22 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

What is the point of arguing this? Neo-Nazis born and raised in Massachusetts use the "confederate" flag. Are you going to tell them they can't because it does not historically represent Nazism?

editposted before I meant to.

Are you going to say they can't use a swastika because it means good luck in Hindu cultures. It is just cultural appropriation. arguing on the internet does not change that.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on September 28, 2017, 08:36:45 PM
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasn’t one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.

After the Dylann Roof mass shooting at the black church in South Carolina, the rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd stopped using the Confederate battle flag on their merchandise. We are talking about the band that wrote "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Freebird". The band that epitomizes Southern Rock and proudly waved the Confederate battle flag at concerts for decades. When Lynyrd Skynyrd decides that that flag represents something they don't want to be associated with, it's time to put that symbol away forever.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: former player on September 29, 2017, 02:12:35 AM
Honestly...who gives a ****?  So a few guys kneel instead of stand for 2 minutes before a game.  You're going to get outraged about THAT to the point of not enjoying the football games you used to enjoy watching but yet...divert no attention, time, etc. to police brutality against minorities?

People need to check themselves.
Apparently the Russian troll farms are busy posting on both sides of this argument - one of their posts forgot to remove the "Vladivostock" location identifier, which let the cat out of the bag.

We are all being played by the Russians on this one.  Again.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 29, 2017, 05:24:07 AM

Apparently the Russian troll farms are busy posting on both sides of this argument - one of their posts forgot to remove the "Vladivostock" location identifier, which let the cat out of the bag.

We are all being played by the Russians on this one.  Again.

"Played"?  I'm not sure I follow you. This has been one of the more interesting off-topic discussions I've been involved with, particularly since so many different viewpoints have been shared. I'll admit that I came to this conversation with my own firmly held opinions, but several posters have articulated contrasting viewpoints and while my basic belief that one should be able to kneel during the anthem has not changed, I feel I understand contrasting opinions a bit better, particularly about the rights/obligations of employers during work.

Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 29, 2017, 06:22:32 AM
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/387565483303923712

There's a pre-President DJT tweet for everything...

Quote
@realDonaldTrump
President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense
6:09 AM - 8 Oct 2013
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: nereo on September 29, 2017, 06:40:40 AM
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/387565483303923712

There's a pre-President DJT tweet for everything...

Quote
@realDonaldTrump
President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense
6:09 AM - 8 Oct 2013

Ah, yes... DJT is a walking contradiction to himself. A socially-conservative Republican who was a business democrat. A pro-lifer who was outspokenly pro-choice. Someone who thinks he's been a good husband but has had three wives and multiple affairs. A person who both personally likes and distains Bush Sr. & Jr, Jeb, McCain, Pataki, Obama, HRC, WJC, Merkel, Kerry & more.

either he's so fickle that he holds no centrist beliefs or his statements of conviction are so patently false that nothing he says can be taken at face value.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: DarkandStormy on September 29, 2017, 07:40:07 AM
https://www.facebook.com/hasanpikerTYT/videos/10155071282829205/

Don't normally pay attention to these shills, but here's a facebook video detailing the hypocrisy of conservative "star" Tomi Lahren.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Proud Foot on October 02, 2017, 10:07:47 AM
I have spent a lot of time thinking through this and while too long to write it all out, to me, it all boils down to these things:
1. Nothing in the NFL player handbook requires specific conduct during the anthem. If there were I believe there would be a push by the NFLPA to get it changed. It will be interesting to see what happens in the NBA as they do have a policy on player conduct during the anthem.
2. It seems like everything has pulled the focus away from the issues Kaepernick was protesting. To me this is unfortunate as we will not be able correct these issues without honest dialog and action. Those saying he and other players should use their money to effect change are lazy at best as many of them are involved in their communities.
3. I fully support the players rights to kneel, sit, raise a fist, etc during the anthem.
4. I also support the right of the owners to fire, suspend, fine, etc any player who do protest during the anthem. I think it would be a terrible move to do as it would alienate the players on their team.
5. Kneeling has always been seen as a sign of showing respect. (kneeling to humble ones self in prayer, kneeling before the king/queen, etc). This was also a suggestion to Kaepernick by a former Green Beret as a way to protest while showing respect to the flag and anthem rather than sitting on the bench as he had previously been doing.
6. If we are to follow the US Code for the flag in this regards should we not also follow it with regards to using it as apparel, plates, napkins, etc?
7. How many people who are upset about this actually stand up and salute when the anthem is aired on TV?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: RidetheRain on October 02, 2017, 11:41:41 AM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on October 02, 2017, 12:00:36 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: RidetheRain on October 02, 2017, 12:12:55 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.

When I say that we are aware, I mean that the movement is well known and the general complaint is well known - not that people agree with the allegations of racism etc. Someone who doesn't think systematic racism exists isn't going to suddenly believe because someone is kneeling for the national anthem. Attention absolutely matters, but I think attention is best done by people that have nothing else to give. Athletes have more options and I would expect them to back up the kneeling with another action within their ability or saying what he actually wants to happen. That could actually gain people to his side.

Imagine a person who is offended by him kneeling, but also agrees with BLM. If the athlete says that he will stand when all cops are required to have cameras when they have a gun then that person can say "Yes. I agree. Let's all get together and make this a law"

That's better than just kneeling with no end in sight and no discernable demand.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: ixtap on October 02, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.

When I say that we are aware, I mean that the movement is well known and the general complaint is well known - not that people agree with the allegations of racism etc. Someone who doesn't think systematic racism exists isn't going to suddenly believe because someone is kneeling for the national anthem. Attention absolutely matters, but I think attention is best done by people that have nothing else to give. Athletes have more options and I would expect them to back up the kneeling with another action within their ability or saying what he actually wants to happen. That could actually gain people to his side.

Imagine a person who is offended by him kneeling, but also agrees with BLM. If the athlete says that he will stand when all cops are required to have cameras when they have a gun then that person can say "Yes. I agree. Let's all get together and make this a law"

That's better than just kneeling with no end in sight and no discernable demand.

How much attention do you think is going to be drawn by someone who has nothing else to give?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on October 02, 2017, 12:17:42 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: RidetheRain on October 02, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Dabnasty on October 02, 2017, 12:35:17 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Fair enough. Regarding the Occupy movement I would agree with this point.

On the other hand I'm not sure if this would make Kaepernick's protest more meaningful or just open him up to further criticism of the "you don't know what you're talking about, you're just an athlete" type. Especially if the thing he asks for is impractical or not well thought out. I suppose he could work in conjunction with a more goal oriented organization and point to their website for more information?
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: RidetheRain on October 02, 2017, 12:45:43 PM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Fair enough. Regarding the Occupy movement I would agree with this point.

On the other hand I'm not sure if this would make Kaepernick's protest more meaningful or just open him up to further criticism of the "you don't know what you're talking about, you're just an athlete" type. Especially if the thing he asks for is impractical or not well thought out. I suppose he could work in conjunction with a more goal oriented organization and point to their website for more information?

That's a good point about further criticism. I'm too used to people blindly following the rich and famous :) Working with a group is probably the best route but even that has it's drawbacks. There isn't really an easy way to go. He seems to have put a lot of thought into his decision so it's unlikely to be surprising to him. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but I was under the impression that he's waiting for something to happen for the protest to stop and I don't know what he's looking for. The endless protest isn't good for the cause or for him personally because it hurts his career and it becomes too "normal" to be effective after a while. This is the kind of thing that works best when it works fast.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: partgypsy on October 02, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
honestly the people going to "boycott" the NFL because some players take a knee, seem like the biggest "snowflakes" ever. Boo hoo (and I am saying this as someone who works at the VA, with a father and grandfather who are vets. My Dad stated it's pretty clear the people who are complaining about the protests have not served (Trump included), and are acting like babies.
https://www.circa.com/story/2017/09/26/politics/nfl-anthem-protests-veterans-weigh-in
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: FrugalToque on October 03, 2017, 08:40:05 AM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Well, I didn't find it too hard to find this link: http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/ (http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/)

That's where Kaepernick is actually outlining all of the money he's donating to various groups that are actually trying to make changes.  That would be a good place to start, if you're interested in helping.

Besides kneeling during the anthem, he is also attaching his name to these donations (navigable via google search).

Toque.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Kris on October 03, 2017, 08:53:56 AM
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/ (http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/)

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Well, I didn't find it too hard to find this link: http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/ (http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/)

That's where Kaepernick is actually outlining all of the money he's donating to various groups that are actually trying to make changes.  That would be a good place to start, if you're interested in helping.

Besides kneeling during the anthem, he is also attaching his name to these donations (navigable via google search).

Toque.

I do think that one has to be very careful of jumping to the conclusion that just because the media is not telling you what an individual or an organization's political goals or actions are, those goals or actions don't exist or aren't well defined.

I notice that presumption/assertion being made quite often by people who love to cite "black on black" crime and ask what blacks themselves are doing to try to reduce it.

Or when people loudly demand to know why the Muslim community is not trying to fight radical Islamic terrorism.

Mainstream media does not necessarily have a vested interest in conveying this information to the larger public. It's generally more profitable to keep rehearsing the same well-known cliches that we are familiar with rather than challenge our preconceived notions with potentially complicated and more challenging takes on these issues.
Title: Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
Post by: Poundwise on October 03, 2017, 10:41:44 AM
Suggest that we read the following article, especially what is said on misconceptions #3, #8, #9.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-misconceptions-about-the-black-lives-matter-movement/
1. The movement doesn’t care about black-on-black crime.
2. It’s a leaderless movement
3. The movement has no agenda.
4. It’s a one-issue movement
5. The movement has no respect for elders.
6. The black church has no role to play.
7. The movement does not care about queer or trans lives.
8. The movement hates white people.
9. The movement hates police officers.

10. The movement’s primary goal should be the vote.
11. There’s not actually a movement at all.

There is also a helpful review here:
https://www.thenation.com/article/what-does-black-lives-matter-want-we-now-have-it-in-writing/