Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 10153 times)

Milizard

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 10:46:59 AM »
We cut the cable, so we don't watch football any more,  though we will if it comes in on our antenna that we have yet to install after a couple years.  Lots of people have cut the cord.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2017, 10:55:25 AM »

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?

As with anything, the relevant questions here include "during what time period?" and "compared to what?".
the 2017 NFL regular season is just three weeks old. The first two weeks had a slight drop off compared with previous years, but the games are still trouncing all other sports and basically almost all other network programs. The first two weeks also coincided with massive hurricanes which disrupted both games and people's regular routines at watching them.  People seem to be watching content more broadly in general in recent years as network broadcast television increasingly competes with everything from Netflix to mobile forums.

tl/dr - there has been a modest decline in viewership and protests have probably had only a minor role in that decline.
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Midwest

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2017, 11:01:09 AM »

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.

simonsez

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I almost feel like copying and pasting Nereo's reply from earlier.  So you're saying "if the employer allows political speech" while also stating that the employer is blaring the national anthem during work hours?  Seems pretty obvious, if the employer plays the national anthem during work hours (a political action), the employee doesn't have to be forced to do anything with regard to it (even though the employer is forcing the employee either to comply or demonstrably not comply), and can also kneel during it without repercussions.

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2017, 11:36:45 AM »
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2017, 11:40:37 AM »

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I don't disagree with you that, outside employment hours you are free to protest however you see fit.  However, even this seems in doubt as sports figures are treated as corporate brands and a controversial late-night tweet from home can result in a player receiving fines or worse. To the NFL, these players are never 'off the clock' until they retire.

One issue I have here is that the NFL *does* mandate their players participate in the national anthem. 
Per the NFL's game operation manual: "All players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
So here we have a situation where "opting out" is results in all sorts of bad stuff for both the team and the player.*
This just strikes me as a 'wanting your cake and eating it too' argument.  The league demands they participate in an overtly nationalistic ritual.


* Commissoner Goodell has stated that no teams or players will be penalized over last weekend's protests or absence during the national anthem.
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Midwest

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52:39 AM »

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.

I'm not suggesting the NFL force its employees to participate.  I'm suggesting that employers have the right to allow or disallow political speech and actions during hours of employment.

If you have an issue with the national anthem and don't wish to stand, unless your employer allows political speech, I suggest removing yourself from the situation is a better alternative than making a political statement during employment hours. 

Outside of employment hours, you are free to protest however you see fit.

There is a difference between removing yourself from the situation (majority of the Steelers) versus kneeling and discussing the politics of it during a team press conference.

I have the right to wear shorts, but I give up that right at work in exchange for my job.  I think same principle applies here.  As I said, I think the NFL is justified in allowing the protest as well and Trump overstepped.  The NFL made a business and/or social decision to allow the protest.  I support the NFL's right to make the decision as an employer.
I almost feel like copying and pasting Nereo's reply from earlier.  So you're saying "if the employer allows political speech" while also stating that the employer is blaring the national anthem during work hours?  Seems pretty obvious, if the employer plays the national anthem during work hours (a political action), the employee doesn't have to be forced to do anything with regard to it (even though the employer is forcing the employee either to comply or demonstrably not comply), and can also kneel during it without repercussions.

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment. 

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2017, 11:53:54 AM »
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/

Toque.

I don't see this as a danger of freedom of speech. Tax payers aren't obligated to subsidize a platform. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom from consequences. In this case, the consequence will be a single law maker making a fuss.

As someone said above, we're not necessarily in favour of those subsidies either.  But that's a separate discussion.  This could just as easily be a municipal zoning board disallowing your new parking lot, or rearranging bus schedules so no one can reach your game, or scheduling road closures to screw you over.

If the behaviour of the government is a punitive response to your political speech, the government in question is violating your constitutional rights.  That's the only clear sense in which we can talk about Free Speech violations.

Toque.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2017, 12:53:33 PM »
I guess all of these things, I see as a "test" of our democracy. Having professional athletes knee during the national anthem, in protest of racial discrimination, is a pretty "soft" test of our democracy. They are not "scary" or yelling or making threats, anything, and what they are protested is pretty well documented and disturbing problem in our society. So having a president act like a dictator in this case, is a very troubling wake up call for us as a democracy.

My opinion. You are not patriotic because you salute or stand for the US Flag. The US Flag is a symbol. You are patriotic, when your actions reflect our patriotic ideals of free speech, tolerance, acceptance, and inclusion. If you stand for the flag but don't put in action what the ideals the flag actually stands for, that is a false and hollow patriotism.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2017, 01:18:36 PM »
I guess all of these things, I see as a "test" of our democracy. Having professional athletes knee during the national anthem, in protest of racial discrimination, is a pretty "soft" test of our democracy. They are not "scary" or yelling or making threats, anything, and what they are protested is pretty well documented and disturbing problem in our society. So having a president act like a dictator in this case, is a very troubling wake up call for us as a democracy.

My opinion. You are not patriotic because you salute or stand for the US Flag. The US Flag is a symbol. You are patriotic, when your actions reflect our patriotic ideals of free speech, tolerance, acceptance, and inclusion. If you stand for the flag but don't put in action what the ideals the flag actually stands for, that is a false and hollow patriotism.

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simonsez

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2017, 01:24:07 PM »
The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
It's a temporary lifting of sanctions against employees of the NFL.  When they change the rulebook, that'll be more final with regard to repercussions.  But does anyone really care that much about the employer/employee relations of the NFL?  I don't recall too many presidential interjections or that much of a non-sport presence during the last CBA ratification process in 2011.  This is a bigger deal because it is reflective of issues in American society due to the number of eyeballs that directly and indirectly are exposed to the NFL.

Regarding an employer's ability to limit political speech, if kneeling is political speech, then so is playing the national anthem.  You can't force something like that and then also limit how others react to it.  Maybe you can though, but I feel like kneeling is so innocent compared to alternative types of protest.  In fact, almost any other action other than actively participating is likely to be more disruptive and/or disrespectful compared to quietly kneeling.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2017, 01:29:11 PM »

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
What concerns me about this viewpoint is the amount of 'rights' given to employers that are not granted to employees. In this example the NFL has the right to compel players and coaches to be present for and stand during the national anthem. If they players do not comply, the league has the power to offer harsh penalties on both the individual and the entire team (thereby punishing others for the actions of an individual). Conversely, the players cannot decline to participate or to refrain from standing. In essence the employer is telling the employee that he must act in a manner which shows fealty to the United States (not the employer OR the profession), regardless of his personal beliefs.

The fact that the league has decided not to take actions against any players is NOT the end of the story.  The very fact that they could at any moment is cause for concern. As protests go this is about as peaceful and respectful as one could imagine. It did not delay any work (the games being performed) nor destroy any property. Individuals were not coerced into one action or another.
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Travis

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2017, 02:02:00 PM »
It seems like we can trim this out into separate issues.

1. President Trump's remarks. I didn't hear or read them, but it sounds like he said something inflammatory (as is his habit) towards kneeling NFL players.  The federal government doesn't have any business having opinions on private business or local politics. I felt just as annoyed when Congress grilled Jose Canseco and Roger Clemens about getting steroids in the butt and President Obama arranged some kind of mediation with a black D.C. professor who was erroneously arrested, or he expressed his personal opinions on Trevon Martin and the riots in Missouri. We have other levels of government to handle those things while at the federal level they squander their work day.

2. Can/should NFL players protest during a game? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the players have behavioral clauses in their contracts? Dress this way, don't say these things, do specific things while playing?  If that's the case, have those issues been filtered through a court? When Kaepernick started the kneeling, the main gripe folks seemed to have was "time and place." He's an employee being paid to perform a function which if his contract mandates it, conduct himself by specific principles and actions. As someone who must adhere to similar requirements in my professional life I tend to agree with those opinions.  Someone mentioned how it is unfair that the NFL can say "no politics on the field" while also forcing the national anthem on them (arguably a political act.)  While I think we have an excess of nationalism in America (see comments below), I don't see the anthem itself as expressing a political opinion. If the NFL put on a show that blatantly called out "All hail the military and President Trump!" then I'd definitely agree with you there.

3. "You hate America and veterans by not standing up straight!"  Yeah, a great many of those folks drive me nuts. I've made my opinion known on this issue a couple times and I'll share it again. Service members swore to defend the US Constitution. All of it.  Exercising your rights is not heresy or disrespect.  The way some people do it I may find personally annoying, but I don't hate them for it.  The service members and veterans getting so bent out of shape you worry they may develop an ulcer I remind you: selfless service is one of our core principles.  Nobody owes you anything for volunteering.  It was unfortunate that the DoD paid the NFL for the public appearances and made it an expectation.  A great many service members seem to think they should have their asses kissed before their first pair of boots are broken in while forgetting what we're defending in the first place.

4. Why are we protesting again? I see this spiraling into media saturation to the point people and groups are going to kneel in either solidarity with the players or because they don't like President Trump. I wonder how many of them remember what started it in the first place.  I remember, and I've barely heard two words in two years in the media.  This will be forgotten before long and we'll move on to our next source of moral outrage.
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Midwest

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2017, 02:17:22 PM »

The NFL has decided to allow it.  End of story from an employment perspective.

If the NFL had decided to disallow it, I suggested a reasonable accommodation would have been to allow the players to stay in the locker room should they so choose during the "blaring" of the national anthem.

Whether you agree or disagree with the protest, employers have the right to limit political speech in the context of employment.
What concerns me about this viewpoint is the amount of 'rights' given to employers that are not granted to employees. In this example the NFL has the right to compel players and coaches to be present for and stand during the national anthem. If they players do not comply, the league has the power to offer harsh penalties on both the individual and the entire team (thereby punishing others for the actions of an individual). Conversely, the players cannot decline to participate or to refrain from standing. In essence the employer is telling the employee that he must act in a manner which shows fealty to the United States (not the employer OR the profession), regardless of his personal beliefs.

The fact that the league has decided not to take actions against any players is NOT the end of the story.  The very fact that they could at any moment is cause for concern. As protests go this is about as peaceful and respectful as one could imagine. It did not delay any work (the games being performed) nor destroy any property. Individuals were not coerced into one action or another.

I'm good with reasonable accommodation, just not sure that reasonable accommodation means kneeling during the anthem and speaking about your beliefs during the press conference.  If I decided to be overly political with a client/audience, I could be fired if my action offended the client.  What we seem to disagree on is reasonable accommodation. 

Personally, I thought the Steelers staying in the locker room was a better direction to go.  Clearly, however, not everyone on the team was in agreement. 

We may disagree on the above, but I do agree that Trump overstepped.  Respectfully saying he disagrees with the players actions would have been fine.  Calling for their firing as the POTUS was over the line.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 02:20:00 PM by Midwest »

MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2017, 02:36:51 PM »
It seems like we can trim this out into separate issues.

1. President Trump's remarks. I didn't hear or read them, but it sounds like he said something inflammatory (as is his habit) towards kneeling NFL players.  The federal government doesn't have any business having opinions on private business or local politics. I felt just as annoyed when Congress grilled Jose Canseco and Roger Clemens about getting steroids in the butt and President Obama arranged some kind of mediation with a black D.C. professor who was erroneously arrested, or he expressed his personal opinions on Trevon Martin and the riots in Missouri. We have other levels of government to handle those things while at the federal level they squander their work day.

2. Can/should NFL players protest during a game? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the players have behavioral clauses in their contracts? Dress this way, don't say these things, do specific things while playing?  If that's the case, have those issues been filtered through a court? When Kaepernick started the kneeling, the main gripe folks seemed to have was "time and place." He's an employee being paid to perform a function which if his contract mandates it, conduct himself by specific principles and actions. As someone who must adhere to similar requirements in my professional life I tend to agree with those opinions.  Someone mentioned how it is unfair that the NFL can say "no politics on the field" while also forcing the national anthem on them (arguably a political act.)  While I think we have an excess of nationalism in America (see comments below), I don't see the anthem itself as expressing a political opinion. If the NFL put on a show that blatantly called out "All hail the military and President Trump!" then I'd definitely agree with you there.

3. "You hate America and veterans by not standing up straight!"  Yeah, a great many of those folks drive me nuts. I've made my opinion known on this issue a couple times and I'll share it again. Service members swore to defend the US Constitution. All of it.  Exercising your rights is not heresy or disrespect.  The way some people do it I may find personally annoying, but I don't hate them for it.  The service members and veterans getting so bent out of shape you worry they may develop an ulcer I remind you: selfless service is one of our core principles.  Nobody owes you anything for volunteering.  It was unfortunate that the DoD paid the NFL for the public appearances and made it an expectation.  A great many service members seem to think they should have their asses kissed before their first pair of boots are broken in while forgetting what we're defending in the first place.

4. Why are we protesting again? I see this spiraling into media saturation to the point people and groups are going to kneel in either solidarity with the players or because they don't like President Trump. I wonder how many of them remember what started it in the first place.  I remember, and I've barely heard two words in two years in the media.  This will be forgotten before long and we'll move on to our next source of moral outrage.

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2017, 02:39:50 PM »
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Yes, it's important to understand we have two different protests here.  While some may disagree with with Kaepernick's method of protesting, it's much harder to disagree with the second wave of protests: protesting against the government trying to punish political speech.

Toque.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2017, 03:17:38 PM »
I recently took a stab at explaining the white trash outrage over this issue with a post in my journal if anyone is interested.

On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2017, 03:23:42 PM »
On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.

I am rapidly coming to this conclusion myself. If it's one thing I could have said to younger Marty, it would be to turn off the freaking TV and stop worshipping these people.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2017, 03:35:43 PM »
I recently took a stab at explaining the white trash outrage over this issue with a post in my journal if anyone is interested.

On a personal note, I no longer watch most professional sports, because it feels really silly to me to sit around drinking beer and eating carbs while I watch other people exercise. And lots of the people who do enjoy sitting around watching also like to gossip about how much the players are paid to exercise, who the players are dating, and how big the players' houses are. Wouldn't it be better to just use your time to have fun playing the game yourself and have your own hard work in your personal life pay off with a big house and hot girlfriend?

I just don't understand this stuff at all anymore.

You're not alone. Useless carbs aren't a problem for me, but professional sports don't give me any entertainment at all. I usually watch the Super Bowl, but only because I'm invited to a big party where other people feed me and there's excitement among friends.  My in-laws used to make a big deal out of watching the Oscars, until they finally realized how political it was and that deep down the next morning we really don't care which director got an award for a movie we didn't see. 
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2017, 03:37:35 PM »
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2017, 03:41:18 PM »
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

#4. Got it, thanks.  I just foresee "kneeling" to be the next hashtagged event across social media and all the superficial behaviors that go with it.
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2017, 03:47:59 PM »
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.

Because THIS is trying to make them look at the actual injustice and THEY DON'T WANT TO.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2017, 03:56:43 PM »
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

Almost universally players are required to do some kind of pre/post game media interview when requested. It can lead to some downright comical performnces when players don't want to say much.

On a related note, mentioned upthread was whether they could espouse their political views... well, what the heck are you supposed to say when some reporter asks you "what do you think about [insert latest controversy]?"
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2017, 04:03:04 PM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...

I've heard that up until a few years ago, players weren't on the field during the national anthem. As part of the DoD's marketing/recruitment budget, they started paying the NFL/teams to do these patriotic events. Thank a vet, etc. The teams aren't doing that out of the goodness of their heart - it's a sponsored event, paid for out of your taxes. The marketing has clearly paid off.

Jouer

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2017, 04:05:09 PM »
^^^

I said "your taxes" because I'm Canadian. My taxes go towards the NHL doing the same. (So do yours)

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2017, 04:15:20 PM »
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2017, 04:16:43 PM »
...snip...

1. Trump called players kneeling Sons of Bitches and called for their firing.
2. Behavioral clauses have nothing to do with the National Anthem or any sort of political discourse. It involves things like behavior issues on and off the field. You know domestic abuse, drug use etc. etc. 
3. +1
4. Kapernick and the select few others who decided to peacefully protest initially did so to protest the continued racial inequality (shooting unarmed black men etc.) prevalent in our society. Yesterday was a protest to Trump referring to those folks as SOBs.

Regarding #2, don't those clauses also include required media exposure and public appearances? Could pre-game stuff like this qualify?

#4. Got it, thanks.  I just foresee "kneeling" to be the next hashtagged event across social media and all the superficial behaviors that go with it.

Sure pre/post-game press conferences and stuff like that. Part of a coaches contract as well. Still nothing to do with the national anthem though. I doubt there is a clause for the national anthem.

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2017, 04:18:15 PM »
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE!

If the problem were just that Trump is racist, we wouldn't have these protests. The problem is that his supporters are racist AND HOW DARE YOU CALL ME THAT FOR SUPPORTING A RACIST AND A RACIST FLAG AND...

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2017, 04:33:36 PM »
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2017, 04:38:49 PM »
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2017, 04:43:13 PM »
Can someone explain to me what this protest has to do with disrespecting veterans?  Is there some sort of NFL deal to involve veterans in the starting ceremony?  Because otherwise, what have veterans (presumably involved in one of the USA's seemingly interminable interventions abroad) have to do with a civil protest against internal, domestic policy?  I'm assuming that these veterans haven't themselves been involved in military action either for or against racist police actions in the USA, so why should those veterans feel disrespected: the protest is not about them.

And how long has the national anthem been played at these matches anyway?  In the UK, I think we would only play the national anthem for games involving the national side, or perhaps the FA cup Final?

tl;dr Trump's a racist, but we knew that anyway, right?

For your veteran question, we in the US have really put our stamp on jingoism in the last decade (yeah, no shit).  We've spent so much time thanking military service members for their contributions to our recent wars (justified or otherwise) that to not do so is tantamount to an admission of treason.  With our polarized political climate, anything that smells like a dissenting opinion regarding our symbols of patriotism is instantly flamed by the right-wing political spectrum.  The protest has nothing to do with the military except it is being done during the national anthem and flag-waving portion of the game which folks see as anti-military and anti-American.

In 2009, the US Department of Defense started paying the NFL to have the national anthem played with the teams present, a football field-sized flag opened and held aloft by dozens of soldiers, and a few other splashes of patriotic color.  At the time everyone thought the NFL was just doing this out of patriotism, until it was discovered a few years later they were paid for the time and opportunity to do so.  Now it is 2017 and while the DoD doesn't pay for it anymore, the NFL has established such a precedent/routine that they're not going to stop.
The DoD ought to get some sort of advertising award for this.  Spend a few million to establish a self-sustaining 'custom' promoting your brand.  End payments but watch as everyone assumes it was always this way and fans would be livid if it ever stopped.  Well played, DoD.
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Telecaster

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2017, 04:47:03 PM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...

As I understand it, the issue is that some players want their teammates to take a knee, and some players want their team mates to stand, placing lots of players  in an awkward position who want to support their teammates but don't approve of a specific action.    By staying in the locker room, it removes the issue. 


Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2017, 04:48:00 PM »
Random thoughts from someone who doesn't really care all that much about football (me):

1. If enough people are so offended by the kneeling that they stop watching NFL games, it will be interesting to see what the NFL does about it. Will they do something about the "root cause" of the protest? Will they contribute money to productive and related solutions? Will they force teams/players to go back to standing during the national anthem? Will they do anything at all?

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

3. I can't think of a #3, so I guess I'll just stick with my #1 and #2 above.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2017, 05:21:24 PM »
Random thoughts from someone who doesn't really care all that much about football (me):

1. If enough people are so offended by the kneeling that they stop watching NFL games, it will be interesting to see what the NFL does about it. Will they do something about the "root cause" of the protest? Will they contribute money to productive and related solutions? Will they force teams/players to go back to standing during the national anthem? Will they do anything at all?

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

3. I can't think of a #3, so I guess I'll just stick with my #1 and #2 above.


1. It will be amazing if the NFL and it's players were to fund some type of non-profit for the betterment of impoverished youth/families and some type of reach-out program for gang members and such.

It would also be great if NFL players were willing to "ride along" with police officers in the areas where black on black crime(and maybe open-mindedly where the police brutality situations took place) and get to see both sides of the problem.  Maybe even talk to the youths and try to make a positive impact on their lives.

2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR.

Yes the black community(and in reality the impoverished ones) has a lot of issues, one of the main ones in my opinion is the fatherlessness problem which continues to grow. But to say , "I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes its other issues first" is a weird way to go about it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:36:53 PM by craiglepaige »
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lexde

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2017, 05:23:57 PM »
I don't care about football. I also don't find this disrespectful. It's a valid exercise of free speech which is something that the same people who are criticizing the behavior are so quick to rely on for their own speech. Veterans fought and died for their right to be able to stand up (or rather, take a knee) for what they believe in. To chill that would be contrary to everything they (and we as Americans) have fought for. I really don't understand why THIS is the battle everyone is picking when there is so much actual injustice going on.

Because THIS is trying to make them look at the actual injustice and THEY DON'T WANT TO.
Fair enough!

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.
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Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2017, 05:50:32 PM »
2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things (it DOES have issues it needs to address asap) it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR. 

I think the ORIGINAL basis of some of the protesting is/was absolutely justified. But it seems like some people just want to hop on the protest bandwagon for the money/attention/anger/looting/whatever, and at some point, the original purpose/goal gets lost. It's rather unfortunate, because as you point out, there are real problems that need to be addressed.

"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.

Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.

Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2017, 06:01:46 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2017, 06:16:04 PM »
2. When you say "supposed basis", it comes off as if you believe the original protest didn't have a real source of anger. There was/is police brutality against minorities in our country. To say that it's not real it's rather foolish. To say that you won't care about it because the black community has other things (it DOES have issues it needs to address asap) it needs to take care of first is difficult to grasp because police brutality and racism shouldn't be an IF/OR. 

I think the ORIGINAL basis of some of the protesting is/was absolutely justified. But it seems like some people just want to hop on the protest bandwagon for the money/attention/anger/looting/whatever, and at some point, the original purpose/goal gets lost. It's rather unfortunate, because as you point out, there are real problems that need to be addressed.

"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.

Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.

I'm in Cleveland, so I understand the way this topic can intertwine itself into everyday life to the point you just want it done and over with. After the Tamir Rice killing (that's what I consider it) the city felt divided in many different ways and it completely felt like there was such a heavy weight on everyone's shoulders. The anger was noticeable and depressing...

I also understand not being happy with the "come along" people who are involved only to cause harm and damage as opposed to actually care about finding a solution to the problems.  Those people should be prosecuted for their crimes. There is no place for that type of vandalism masquerading itself as a real protest.

And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.
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Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2017, 06:17:58 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Yeah, it’s a drag when people who have nothing to fear from cops keep having to put up with constantly being asked to care that not everyone is so lucky.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2017, 06:22:13 PM »
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2017, 07:28:58 PM »
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2017, 07:36:55 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. Not EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 06:48:53 AM by DarkandStormy »
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Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2017, 07:39:19 PM »
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it.

Three possibilities:
1. We live in different cities.
2. Good stuff is happening and I'm not aware of it because I don't watch TV and I'm not on Facebook. (I do read the local paper on the web, and I never see any stories about this. I believe I would notice stories about this because they would definitely interest me.)
3. Good stuff is happening and it's not being publicized enough.
I guess a fourth possibility is my news sources are biased. (Aren't they all?) But I do listen to and read a variety of local sources.

Regardless, I'm so glad to hear that good stuff is happening in your city. I'd love to hear more about what's going on, especially stuff that could "go viral" and spread to other cities.

Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2017, 07:42:49 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

Um...I guess if that's your interpretation of what I've written, then okay. But it was not my intent. That's a risk we take when sharing thoughts on the web.

MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2017, 07:43:18 PM »
And you're correct that this awareness needs to solidify itself into something for the betterment of the people it's supposed to be about. If it doesn't, it will be a total waste of time. But please, and I say this as an MMM friend, to say you'll only care about this issue after the black community fixes the other issues it has is an extremely inconsiderate thing to say.

First, thank you for reading my post the way I intended, and for responding as you did.

Second, you're absolutely right. I care about this issue a lot, and I really want us all (all colors, all of society) to problem-solve together. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated...because I just don't see any true problem-solving taking place. Yet. I hope we can get there.

Not sure where you live but in my large mid-western city I can't tell you the number of groups spearheaded by the African American community to combat black on black crime. I see it in the news nearly everyday. Certainly off topic but I couldn't disagree more that it isn't seen as an issue or that there is nothing being done about it.

Three possibilities:
1. We live in different cities.
2. Good stuff is happening and I'm not aware of it because I don't watch TV and I'm not on Facebook. (I do read the local paper on the web, and I never see any stories about this. I believe I would notice stories about this because they would definitely interest me.)
3. Good stuff is happening and it's not being publicized enough.
I guess a fourth possibility is my news sources are biased. (Aren't they all?) But I do listen to and read a variety of local sources.

Regardless, I'm so glad to hear that good stuff is happening in your city. I'd love to hear more about what's going on, especially stuff that could "go viral" and spread to other cities.

Two words.... "GET INVOLVED" Instead of claiming the media is bias or your don't watch TV and then assuming they don't exist. It isn't just my city.

Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2017, 07:46:27 PM »
Two words.... "GET INVOLVED" Instead of claiming the media is bias or your don't watch TV and then assuming they don't exist. It isn't just my city.

That's fair. In fact, I had lunch today with someone who is passionate about diversity, inclusion, and moving race relations forward. It was a fascinating conversation and I look forward to our next one.

I was just responding about your "I see it in the news every day" statement, which is why I focused on the media in that reply.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2017, 07:53:16 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 07:54:57 PM by craiglepaige »
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2017, 07:58:49 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2017, 08:05:06 PM »
1. It will be amazing if the NFL and it's players were to fund some type of non-profit for the betterment of impoverished youth/families and some type of reach-out program for gang members and such.

It would also be great if NFL players were willing to "ride along" with police officers in the areas where black on black crime(and maybe open-mindedly where the police brutality situations took place) and get to see both sides of the problem.  Maybe even talk to the youths and try to make a positive impact on their lives.

I wish I could remember the source, but I recall hearing a story/opinion/study recently talking about how when ONE family member graduates from college, it changes the trajectory of the family tree forever.  Given that, wouldn't it be cool if the NFL could sponsor a crap-ton of scholarships for young adults who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity/funds, but do have the motivation? Just one random idea. I'm sure there are better ideas out there...