Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 11369 times)

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2017, 01:27:23 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

SoundFuture

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #251 on: September 28, 2017, 01:32:50 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/opinions/what-trumps-gut-knows-about-the-nfl-controversy-jennings/index.html

I don't know this guy from Adam; for all I know, he could be an alt-right hack.*  But the poll he reports seems to suggest that Trump is just saying out loud what a large segment of American society believes.

Personally, I strongly disagree; to me, peacefully protesting is one of the most patriotic things you can do.  The right to self-government -- the right of the people to make our government what we want it to be -- is the most fundamental right granted in the Constitution.  That is precisely why the First Amendment protects free speech:  because those who speak out force us to ask what we really want our country to stand for.  Speaking, listening, protesting, and arguing about what our country should and shouldn't do are core American values and highly patriotic actions; stifling dissent is anti-American. 

But if almost 3 out of 4 Americans think that taking a knee is "unpatriotic," I am in a very small minority -- that "coastal elite" that everyone loves to disparage.  Which also means that public backlash is going to be a long time coming.

*I do think his objection to the protests (because the anthem is a "ritual that "reminds us that we are all, as Americans, in this together.") fundamentally misses the point:  the protests are specifically saying "you are not treating me as a full, equal American."  I can't think of a more effective way to say that than by refusing to participate in the weekly national bonding ritual.

Just so I'm clear, when I said backlash, I didn't mean a broad political type of backlash, I mean a race riot kind of backlash. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #252 on: September 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

Who cares...it still symbolizes a traitor.  By definition, it's unpatriotic.
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SoundFuture

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #253 on: September 28, 2017, 01:49:53 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

Who cares...it still symbolizes a traitor.  By definition, it's unpatriotic.

Regardless of our opinion on this one I think we can all agree that this is off-topic. :-)

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #254 on: September 28, 2017, 01:52:07 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #255 on: September 28, 2017, 02:05:04 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.
None.  Because they are ignorant.

It just makes it easier for me to deal with them because it just makes not only their opinion but what they defend all align in their ignorance.  They can call you ignorant, but when asked to prove to you, their case falls apart.  Every time we run into one of these bozos we always ask them "Why are you waving the battle flag of Virginia?"  It's always worth the laugh when they have no clue and ask what you mean.

And to the earlier posters, yes, it's off topic, but on a forum that I at least gets the idiocy of thinking this is actually an official confederate flag I figure it was worth mentioning.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 02:06:36 PM by caracarn »

Laura33

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #256 on: September 28, 2017, 02:13:17 PM »
Just so I'm clear, when I said backlash, I didn't mean a broad political type of backlash, I mean a race riot kind of backlash.

Ah, yes.  I would argue we're already there.  We walked back from the brink a couple of years ago, but with nothing actually fixed, and officers continuing to be acquitted (and DOJ certainly no longer willing to investigate), I strongly suspect it's only a matter of time.

Which, I fear, would be viewed as a feature instead of a bug by some whose political lives are built on fear and polarization.
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hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #257 on: September 28, 2017, 03:11:22 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

What is the point of arguing this? Neo-Nazis born and raised in Massachusetts use the "confederate" flag. Are you going to tell them they can't because it does not historically represent Nazism?

editposted before I meant to.

Are you going to say they can't use a swastika because it means good luck in Hindu cultures. It is just cultural appropriation. arguing on the internet does not change that.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 03:14:32 PM by hoping2retire35 »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #258 on: September 28, 2017, 08:36:45 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
Ugh.  It's NOT the confederate flag.

The Confederate States of America went through three different flags during the Civil War, but the battle flag wasnít one of them. Instead, the flag that most people associate with the Confederacy was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Leeís Army of Northern Virginia.

Yes, and how many people defending its use today understand that? The ones I know call me ignorant whenever I talk about this history.

After the Dylann Roof mass shooting at the black church in South Carolina, the rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd stopped using the Confederate battle flag on their merchandise. We are talking about the band that wrote "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Freebird". The band that epitomizes Southern Rock and proudly waved the Confederate battle flag at concerts for decades. When Lynyrd Skynyrd decides that that flag represents something they don't want to be associated with, it's time to put that symbol away forever.

former player

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #259 on: September 29, 2017, 02:12:35 AM »
Honestly...who gives a ****?  So a few guys kneel instead of stand for 2 minutes before a game.  You're going to get outraged about THAT to the point of not enjoying the football games you used to enjoy watching but yet...divert no attention, time, etc. to police brutality against minorities?

People need to check themselves.
Apparently the Russian troll farms are busy posting on both sides of this argument - one of their posts forgot to remove the "Vladivostock" location identifier, which let the cat out of the bag.

We are all being played by the Russians on this one.  Again.
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nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #260 on: September 29, 2017, 05:24:07 AM »

Apparently the Russian troll farms are busy posting on both sides of this argument - one of their posts forgot to remove the "Vladivostock" location identifier, which let the cat out of the bag.

We are all being played by the Russians on this one.  Again.

"Played"?  I'm not sure I follow you. This has been one of the more interesting off-topic discussions I've been involved with, particularly since so many different viewpoints have been shared. I'll admit that I came to this conversation with my own firmly held opinions, but several posters have articulated contrasting viewpoints and while my basic belief that one should be able to kneel during the anthem has not changed, I feel I understand contrasting opinions a bit better, particularly about the rights/obligations of employers during work.

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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #261 on: September 29, 2017, 06:22:32 AM »
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/387565483303923712

There's a pre-President DJT tweet for everything...

Quote
@realDonaldTrump
President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense
6:09 AM - 8 Oct 2013
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nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #262 on: September 29, 2017, 06:40:40 AM »
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/387565483303923712

There's a pre-President DJT tweet for everything...

Quote
@realDonaldTrump
President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense
6:09 AM - 8 Oct 2013

Ah, yes... DJT is a walking contradiction to himself. A socially-conservative Republican who was a business democrat. A pro-lifer who was outspokenly pro-choice. Someone who thinks he's been a good husband but has had three wives and multiple affairs. A person who both personally likes and distains Bush Sr. & Jr, Jeb, McCain, Pataki, Obama, HRC, WJC, Merkel, Kerry & more.

either he's so fickle that he holds no centrist beliefs or his statements of conviction are so patently false that nothing he says can be taken at face value.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #263 on: September 29, 2017, 07:40:07 AM »
https://www.facebook.com/hasanpikerTYT/videos/10155071282829205/

Don't normally pay attention to these shills, but here's a facebook video detailing the hypocrisy of conservative "star" Tomi Lahren.
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Proud Foot

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #264 on: October 02, 2017, 10:07:47 AM »
I have spent a lot of time thinking through this and while too long to write it all out, to me, it all boils down to these things:
1. Nothing in the NFL player handbook requires specific conduct during the anthem. If there were I believe there would be a push by the NFLPA to get it changed. It will be interesting to see what happens in the NBA as they do have a policy on player conduct during the anthem.
2. It seems like everything has pulled the focus away from the issues Kaepernick was protesting. To me this is unfortunate as we will not be able correct these issues without honest dialog and action. Those saying he and other players should use their money to effect change are lazy at best as many of them are involved in their communities.
3. I fully support the players rights to kneel, sit, raise a fist, etc during the anthem.
4. I also support the right of the owners to fire, suspend, fine, etc any player who do protest during the anthem. I think it would be a terrible move to do as it would alienate the players on their team.
5. Kneeling has always been seen as a sign of showing respect. (kneeling to humble ones self in prayer, kneeling before the king/queen, etc). This was also a suggestion to Kaepernick by a former Green Beret as a way to protest while showing respect to the flag and anthem rather than sitting on the bench as he had previously been doing.
6. If we are to follow the US Code for the flag in this regards should we not also follow it with regards to using it as apparel, plates, napkins, etc?
7. How many people who are upset about this actually stand up and salute when the anthem is aired on TV?

RidetheRain

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #265 on: October 02, 2017, 11:41:41 AM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #266 on: October 02, 2017, 12:00:36 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.

RidetheRain

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #267 on: October 02, 2017, 12:12:55 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.

When I say that we are aware, I mean that the movement is well known and the general complaint is well known - not that people agree with the allegations of racism etc. Someone who doesn't think systematic racism exists isn't going to suddenly believe because someone is kneeling for the national anthem. Attention absolutely matters, but I think attention is best done by people that have nothing else to give. Athletes have more options and I would expect them to back up the kneeling with another action within their ability or saying what he actually wants to happen. That could actually gain people to his side.

Imagine a person who is offended by him kneeling, but also agrees with BLM. If the athlete says that he will stand when all cops are required to have cameras when they have a gun then that person can say "Yes. I agree. Let's all get together and make this a law"

That's better than just kneeling with no end in sight and no discernable demand.
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #268 on: October 02, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.

You may be aware, but we have people on this very board saying that it isn't true, that systematic racism doesn't exist, etc.

Just today I saw someone say that it was racist to call out racism in the media.

Attention matters and I am pissed that white supremacists have done anything in their power to distract from the actual  issue by making it about the military and superficial acts of patriotism.

When I say that we are aware, I mean that the movement is well known and the general complaint is well known - not that people agree with the allegations of racism etc. Someone who doesn't think systematic racism exists isn't going to suddenly believe because someone is kneeling for the national anthem. Attention absolutely matters, but I think attention is best done by people that have nothing else to give. Athletes have more options and I would expect them to back up the kneeling with another action within their ability or saying what he actually wants to happen. That could actually gain people to his side.

Imagine a person who is offended by him kneeling, but also agrees with BLM. If the athlete says that he will stand when all cops are required to have cameras when they have a gun then that person can say "Yes. I agree. Let's all get together and make this a law"

That's better than just kneeling with no end in sight and no discernable demand.

How much attention do you think is going to be drawn by someone who has nothing else to give?

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #269 on: October 02, 2017, 12:17:42 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

RidetheRain

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #270 on: October 02, 2017, 12:25:54 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.
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Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #271 on: October 02, 2017, 12:35:17 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Fair enough. Regarding the Occupy movement I would agree with this point.

On the other hand I'm not sure if this would make Kaepernick's protest more meaningful or just open him up to further criticism of the "you don't know what you're talking about, you're just an athlete" type. Especially if the thing he asks for is impractical or not well thought out. I suppose he could work in conjunction with a more goal oriented organization and point to their website for more information?

RidetheRain

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #272 on: October 02, 2017, 12:45:43 PM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Fair enough. Regarding the Occupy movement I would agree with this point.

On the other hand I'm not sure if this would make Kaepernick's protest more meaningful or just open him up to further criticism of the "you don't know what you're talking about, you're just an athlete" type. Especially if the thing he asks for is impractical or not well thought out. I suppose he could work in conjunction with a more goal oriented organization and point to their website for more information?

That's a good point about further criticism. I'm too used to people blindly following the rich and famous :) Working with a group is probably the best route but even that has it's drawbacks. There isn't really an easy way to go. He seems to have put a lot of thought into his decision so it's unlikely to be surprising to him. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but I was under the impression that he's waiting for something to happen for the protest to stop and I don't know what he's looking for. The endless protest isn't good for the cause or for him personally because it hurts his career and it becomes too "normal" to be effective after a while. This is the kind of thing that works best when it works fast.
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partgypsy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #273 on: October 02, 2017, 01:36:44 PM »
honestly the people going to "boycott" the NFL because some players take a knee, seem like the biggest "snowflakes" ever. Boo hoo (and I am saying this as someone who works at the VA, with a father and grandfather who are vets. My Dad stated it's pretty clear the people who are complaining about the protests have not served (Trump included), and are acting like babies.
https://www.circa.com/story/2017/09/26/politics/nfl-anthem-protests-veterans-weigh-in
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 01:40:18 PM by partgypsy »

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #274 on: October 03, 2017, 08:40:05 AM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Well, I didn't find it too hard to find this link: http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

That's where Kaepernick is actually outlining all of the money he's donating to various groups that are actually trying to make changes.  That would be a good place to start, if you're interested in helping.

Besides kneeling during the anthem, he is also attaching his name to these donations (navigable via google search).

Toque.

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #275 on: October 03, 2017, 08:53:56 AM »
Turning away from the discussion about who in particular is racist...

I just don't get how the take a knee thing is helping. Athletes have the unique position of rubbing shoulders with people that can actually make a difference (politicians etc.) and a symbolic gesture is nice, but it seems like the goal is to raise awareness. So it did push the issue back into the spotlight again without another death which is good. But we are aware already.

We need decent solutions and unity which I don't think #takeaknee really helps. Now people are divided over the completely expected slight against veterans in addition to the racism and anti-police divides. What does this guy want before he stands again? The end of racism? No more guns for police? Action by the federal government? An apology? I hate it when people protest and don't say what they want.
Part of the effort in achieving equality is building awareness: telling people that African Americans aren't getting a fair chance at their piece of the American pie.
That awareness needs to be built.
It's not fair to criticize a man for not doing everything when he is at least doing something.

However, that said, the man in question is actually doing a lot more.  He is spending his hard earned money, where he can, on solutions to problem people of his race face every day.
http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/colin-kaepernick-donated-25000-to-black-women-and-conservatives-lost-their-minds/

So, I don't quite get your criticism.
He should be doing more?  But he is doing more.
He shouldn't be building awareness via peaceful, respectful protest?  That doesn't sound right.

Toque.

I was unclear here. I don't want him to stop! I want to know what he wants. It's the same problem I had with the Occupy movement. I just wanted to shake people and shout "What do you want!". Part of protest (to me) is a demand for a particular thing. I want him to be more clear in what the goal is so that people can gather around a particular changeable part of the country. I don't have any way to make people less racist or to give thousands of dollars. I do have a way to call my congressman and demand he works on a law for police accountability. It doesn't do much unless a whole bunch of people also call their reps. This athlete has a voice to direct the masses and he's not saying where to go.

Well, I didn't find it too hard to find this link: http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

That's where Kaepernick is actually outlining all of the money he's donating to various groups that are actually trying to make changes.  That would be a good place to start, if you're interested in helping.

Besides kneeling during the anthem, he is also attaching his name to these donations (navigable via google search).

Toque.

I do think that one has to be very careful of jumping to the conclusion that just because the media is not telling you what an individual or an organization's political goals or actions are, those goals or actions don't exist or aren't well defined.

I notice that presumption/assertion being made quite often by people who love to cite "black on black" crime and ask what blacks themselves are doing to try to reduce it.

Or when people loudly demand to know why the Muslim community is not trying to fight radical Islamic terrorism.

Mainstream media does not necessarily have a vested interest in conveying this information to the larger public. It's generally more profitable to keep rehearsing the same well-known cliches that we are familiar with rather than challenge our preconceived notions with potentially complicated and more challenging takes on these issues.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 12:08:56 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Poundwise

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #276 on: October 03, 2017, 10:41:44 AM »
Suggest that we read the following article, especially what is said on misconceptions #3, #8, #9.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-misconceptions-about-the-black-lives-matter-movement/
1. The movement doesnít care about black-on-black crime.
2. Itís a leaderless movement
3. The movement has no agenda.
4. Itís a one-issue movement
5. The movement has no respect for elders.
6. The black church has no role to play.
7. The movement does not care about queer or trans lives.
8. The movement hates white people.
9. The movement hates police officers.

10. The movementís primary goal should be the vote.
11. Thereís not actually a movement at all.

There is also a helpful review here:
https://www.thenation.com/article/what-does-black-lives-matter-want-we-now-have-it-in-writing/