Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 10152 times)

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #200 on: September 27, 2017, 09:37:44 AM »
Yes it is the slow creep of what becomes the norm.  The "new normal" if you will, to borrow a pop culture phrase, which was all the rage after 9/11.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware person, but I admit I was brought to task by the comment in this thread for an earlier poster about how people from other countries look at our attachment to the flag and scratch their heads.  This was a bit of a surprise to me, and more importantly made me aware of how easy it is to assume that everyone does or thinks the way I do.  While I know that is patently false, it is a trap that was proven easy to fall in to.  I only see other countries anthems and flags when I watch the Olympics and they seem to revere the flag, stand at attention and sing and tear up just as I do as am American with my flag, so it threw me for a loop to hear the opinion voiced that they are not thinking about their flag and anthem the same way we do here in the US.

DarkandStormy's comment about 2009 being a turning point for the NFL is analyzed on snopes.com pretty well along with some other places, and this is not entirely accurate either.  The league did start receiving money then, yes, but players for most games were already out on the field for the national anthem, and the change that is referenced was only put in place for prime time games and that was to help with TV not with patriotism.  As always it is easy for us to conflate things that fit into our confirmation bias.  Let's analyze the situation with an objective lens and not sling around things without doing some research. 

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #201 on: September 27, 2017, 09:43:31 AM »


And 2) The NFL is a bit hypocritical here.  They're standing "in unity" now and embracing open protests if teams/players choose to do so.  Yet they were silent when Kaepernick did it by himself last year and these same owners - some who joined players on the field this weekend - refuse to hire him now.  I watch some NFL here and there - you can't tell me Kaepernick is worse than whatever the heck the Colts are attempting to do at QB without Andrew Luck.  He's one of the 64 best QBs on talent alone (32 teams - starter & backup) but no one hired him.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #202 on: September 27, 2017, 10:44:16 AM »
Bob Costas weighs in on a ~15 minute interview on CNN.  Many good points made, several echoed upthread

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn

Fantastic analysis. Thanks for sharing. Costas is always very articulate and intelligent in his analysis of various events.

Laura33

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #203 on: September 27, 2017, 12:30:49 PM »
Disparate thoughts:

Standing vs. kneeling for the Star Spangled Banner is self-evidently symbolic.  If it weren't -- if it didn't mean anything -- then people would have just ignored Kaepernick last year, and he'd still be employed. 

The First Amendment applies only to government action, not the actions of private citizens.  E.g., this is why the Nazis get to march: because if a city has a permit system for demonstrations, it cannot discriminate based on the content of the speech in question.  There are special rules for schools:  because they are both a government function AND mandatory for kids to attend, they can generally limit speech only to the extent to maintain order in the classroom and protect the welfare of the students and the like.  So for example, they can require kids to sit quietly, but they cannot make them say the Pledge.

A private entity is generally free to institute whatever rules it wants to for its employees, unless those rules run afoul of some other constitutionally-protected right.  There are many stories of people being fired based on postings on social media, completely unrelated to their work.  In the NFL's case, these obligations are built into highly detailed contracts that are intensely negotiated.  No player should be surprised about his obligations, or the potential ramifications of disregarding them.  The owners, in turn, have the full discretion to respond however they like; they can applaud the players' actions, they can ignore them and hope the issue goes away, or they can fire/discipline the players for breaking the rules.  That's part of free enterprise.  And in turn, they can accept the business consequences that come with whatever decision they make.

It is entirely inappropriate for the highest representative of the US government to attempt to influence how a business responds to its employees' speech.  Whether this is significant enough to amount to a violation of the First Amendment, I don't know.  But it is completely counter to the spirit of the First Amendment -- not to mention the longstanding core principle of the Republican Party that free enterprise is best and the market will take care of itself.

The NFL is very much in a bind here.  It is being pummeled by a series of issues that are making many people less and less comfortable with the game, from the TBI issues to domestic violence to performance-enhancing drugs, etc.  At the same time, much of its core fan base is very patriotic, in the "don't mess with the flag" way.  So if it allows the protests to continue, it alienates its core base; OTOH, if it clamps down, it further alienates many liberals who were already beginning to wonder about these other issues.

To my mind, the fact that the protest is coming from "millionaire" football players gives it even greater impact and meaning.  These men are predominantly minority, and have busted their humps their whole lives to make it, many from incredibly difficult circumstances.  Through the result of these extraordinary efforts, they have achieved the pinnacle of fame and fortune in their chosen profession (which, in turn, is very highly valued/respected by the populace as a whole).  And they are telling us that they still do not feel equal in our society -- that on the field they are viewed as heroes and role models, but when they get in their car and drive home a little too fast or have a tail light go out, they still have to fear being shot because a police officer involved overreacted upon seeing a big black guy in the driver's seat.  That matters.  If these guys can do everything asked of them, be hugely successful and earn so much respect from so many people, and still not be safe -- still be treated like the big scary "other" -- can any black man in America truly feel equal?

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.  Last year, we were talking about one or two players, which meant that a lot of the discussion focused on the actual cause they were demonstrating for.  In one tweet, Trump managed to both energize his base and change the conversation to focus on him; the actual issues being protested are now completely lost in the shouting.  Trump's political popularity is based on polarization, the sense by many that they are losing control of their own country*; continuing to focus the public discourse on polarizing issues, casting everything as an us-vs-them fight, reinforces his political strength, even if he is objectively wrong under the Constitution.  And now his opponents are arguing about the First Amendment, instead of about black kids getting shot down by police, thus relieving pressure that might otherwise have focused on fixing the real problems that are out there.  It's all very meta -- someone protest a real thing; the government pushes back; and soon we are arguing about the protest and the pushback instead of anything that actually matters on the ground.  Deflect and distract has been a fantastic political strategy since time immemorial.

There was an earlier comment about something like "the last 50 years of social engineering" having failed.  That bothered me, because it implied that many efforts that grew from the civil rights movement were part of some sort of liberal experiment foisted on the populace by an overreaching government, and that since it has now failed, can we please just leave things alone and get on with it?**  Starting the analysis 50 or 60 years ago -- i.e., the only era that most of us here have ever known -- ignores the dynamics that were set in play over hundreds of years before.  I read a very good article, which of course I cannot now find, that explained the St. Louis protests via historical development patterns:  specifically, that for many decades, new housing developments were segregated; that the Supreme Court outlawed these kinds of covenants in the 1940s; and that the white developments responded to this order by incorporating themselves into scores of tiny townships that specifically excluded their black neighbors.  This means that there are today many, many separate governmental jurisdictions -- some separated only by a few miles -- each of which requires schools, police, fire department, and other services.  But because of the historic decisions back when segregation was legal and first outlawed, the resources were generally located in the white townships.  So the white towns got good schools and good budgets, and the black areas got crappy schools and underfunded budgets.  As a result, many of the black towns resorted to draconian enforcement of traffic laws as a way to make ends meet, with fines of multiple hundreds of dollars over the smallest infractions, together with ever-accruing late fees; there were also significant concerns raised whether these citizens even received notice of their trial dates, which were frequently set in places like the HS gym, and which would typically work through hundreds of citations in a day -- little evidence or opportunity to mount a defense, just guilty, guilt, guilty, here's your fine, go over there to work out a payment plan.  And when the poor citizenry couldn't pay the ever-compounding fees, they'd lose their license, and thus lose their ability to keep their job, and thus be stuck even deeper in poverty.  And if Trump's election showed us anything, it's that people who feel powerless and feel like their government is giving them the shaft get angry.

So if you start the clock ticking in, say, 1960, it's easy to frame up the issue as agitated, pushy blacks who should just get jobs and shut up like all the white people do; after all, segregation is illegal, job discrimination is illegal, so what's the problem?  But if you go back 50 years before that, it becomes clear that those last 50 years represent an effort to erase some of the harm done by the prior decades, and that those efforts have failed not because the government was messing in stuff it should leave alone, but because the efforts were too insignificant to fix the real root causes of the current inequality.

*Which, of course, comes from the privileged assumption that they in fact had and continue to have the right to maintain that control in perpetuity.

** That may not have been the intent here, and I may be reading too much into it.  But I have heard similar thoughts by many comfortable white folks like me, so I wanted to address that.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #204 on: September 27, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.

It may have worked out to be political genius, but you're giving him entirely too much credit here.  The man is a bumbling idiot.  There was no "strategy" involved in the move other than he was at a rally in Alabama (the election's over, Donnie) and wanted to pander to his white nationalist base.

(There are other theories that he's had it out for the NFL since they killed his USFL endeavor or something like that.)
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Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #205 on: September 27, 2017, 01:42:26 PM »

I think Trump's response was both entirely cynical and sheer political genius.

It may have worked out to be political genius, but you're giving him entirely too much credit here.  The man is a bumbling idiot.  There was no "strategy" involved in the move other than he was at a rally in Alabama (the election's over, Donnie) and wanted to pander to his white nationalist base.

(There are other theories that he's had it out for the NFL since they killed his USFL endeavor or something like that.)
Thank you Laura33 for the in depth take on the situation.

I do think this was intentional as many of his distractions and polarizing comments are but not necessarily genius. To people with a conscience and empathy these tactics seem clever because we may not have thought to manipulate people in that way but to those with narcissistic personality disorder and/or psychopaths these things can be fairly obvious, especially since he's already used this tactic to great success.

And I don't describe him as a psychopath and having NPD as an insult, I use these terms in the technical sense because I am confident that he is affected at some level. In fact a disproportionate number of politicians, executives and leaders are lacking of empathy. Not that I have any experience with the personality disorders, I just read articles & studies.

stashing_it

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #206 on: September 28, 2017, 12:31:44 AM »
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage


kamille

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #207 on: September 28, 2017, 04:14:51 AM »
You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage

It is my understanding that the political parties have evolved over the last 150 years and instead of looking at it as Democratic and Republican, view it as which parties were more progressive and conservative at the time. The sources you listed lean conservative and may be considered biased.

MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #208 on: September 28, 2017, 05:17:54 AM »
You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.

If that is the case, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of the history around the 19th amendment (women's suffrage).   It is my understanding that it was passed by a Republican controlled congress after being defeated by a Democrat controlled congress.   As far as state ratification, it was supported more strongly by Republican controlled states.   (8 of 9 states that failed to ratify being Democrat controlled)
https://spectator.org/35608_republicans-and-womens-rights-brief-reality-check/
http://www.nfrw.org/women-suffrage

It is my understanding that the political parties have evolved over the last 150 years and instead of looking at it as Democratic and Republican, view it as which parties were more progressive and conservative at the time. The sources you listed lean conservative and may be considered biased.

Yep, that's true. Rather strange to think about. A great example is the environment as Nixon (a Republican at the time) created the EPA and NOAA. Both agencies routinely despised by current Republicans as their attitude towards the environment has shifted. Ok, sorry off topic.

 Anywho yes looking at long ago history (even 40 years) and putting Republican and Democrat labels on things is a bad ideal. 


FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #209 on: September 28, 2017, 06:35:54 AM »
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.


This is not a political party line issue, and we're trying to avoid this thread turning into one.

https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

The issue here is that white people (not any specific party) are generally, on average, put off by black people's demonstrations and protests.  They feel, by large margins that the protests "hurt Negroes", "Negroes should stop" etc.  Even while their goals are incomplete, even while inequality is acknowledged, it would just be nice if they would stop bothering us about it where we can see it.

Toque.

megaschnauzer

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #210 on: September 28, 2017, 06:57:27 AM »
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #211 on: September 28, 2017, 07:08:04 AM »
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?

Of course not.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #212 on: September 28, 2017, 07:11:04 AM »
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.


hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #213 on: September 28, 2017, 07:12:21 AM »
You need to stop saying "Negroes." It is not the n-word but it is still inappropriate to use. Stop.


To yours and others larger point, I don't remember anyone over the last five pages of discussion say it is wrong or unpatriotic to take a knee. I wouldn't do it, but it does not bother me or make me uncomfortable either. Seems like this is turning into a talking past one another thread. What is our goal here? What are the issues we are trying to hash out?

1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

Some other aspects that are more straightforward but other people may want clarification; I left those out.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #214 on: September 28, 2017, 07:20:06 AM »
I think a lot of people are saying that it's disrespectful to take a knee during the anthem. I don't know the proportion on this forum or this thread, but definitely a large number of Americans feel this way, which is why people are pissed off. It'd be disrespectful to take a knee because you oppose police brutality, because you oppose NAFTA, because you oppose ACA, because you oppose bombing weddings in Pakistan, because...

They interpret it as a protest against America, not as a protest against what America is doing.

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #215 on: September 28, 2017, 07:27:33 AM »
You need to stop saying "Negroes." It is not the n-word but it is still inappropriate to use. Stop.


To yours and others larger point, I don't remember anyone over the last five pages of discussion say it is wrong or unpatriotic to take a knee. I wouldn't do it, but it does not bother me or make me uncomfortable either. Seems like this is turning into a talking past one another thread. What is our goal here? What are the issues we are trying to hash out?

1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

Some other aspects that are more straightforward but other people may want clarification; I left those out.

Negroes was used in this thread as part of a specific historic context, as it was the word used in the referred to polls in the 1960s.

stashing_it

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #216 on: September 28, 2017, 07:41:53 AM »
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

You did not specify here who the same groups of people are that you are referring to above.  Based on my reading of this comment I believe you are referring to republicans as a group against these protests and rights.


This is not a political party line issue, and we're trying to avoid this thread turning into one.

https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

The issue here is that white people (not any specific party) are generally, on average, put off by black people's demonstrations and protests.  They feel, by large margins that the protests "hurt Negroes", "Negroes should stop" etc.  Even while their goals are incomplete, even while inequality is acknowledged, it would just be nice if they would stop bothering us about it where we can see it.

Toque.


I can get on board with not turning a thread into a party issue.   However I would also make take the stance that we should not be identifying a group of people as the bad guys who through out history have stood in the way of everything that has improved.

The post I directly responded to

Quote
Quote
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?

I made an assumption on what the poster meant, and as politely as I knew how pointed out a historical fact that in my opinion contradicted some of the assertion that there were a single group of people who have have been bad throughout history

In the 7 hours (midnight to 7 am local time U.S.) since I commented, 3 people called out my post for various types of "I don't think that what you are saying is completely accurate"    Those comments are probably fairly legitimate.   However my reply came 30 hours after the commenter I replied made a statement that throughout history there have been a group of people who have stood in the way of progress.   I was the first person to reply and say that I believe that kind of identification that there is one group of people who are always morally wrong is not correct.

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #217 on: September 28, 2017, 07:49:26 AM »
I think a lot of people are saying that it's disrespectful to take a knee during the anthem. I don't know the proportion on this forum or this thread, but definitely a large number of Americans feel this way, which is why people are pissed off. It'd be disrespectful to take a knee because you oppose police brutality, because you oppose NAFTA, because you oppose ACA, because you oppose bombing weddings in Pakistan, because...

They interpret it as a protest against America, not as a protest against what America is doing.

Even IF it's disrespectful (and I really have a problem labeling it as such given that Kaepernick and Eric Reid met with a retired Green Beret last year and decided kneeling would show more respect for veterans vs. sitting on the bench) is it any more disrespectful than fans not removing hats, buying beer, going to the restroom, taking pictures on their phone, wearing American flag swim trunks, buying beer cans made up of the American flag logo, etc. etc.?  Did they boycot Budweiser for disrespecting the flag?  Or Old Navy for profiting off of the flag with shirts and shorts?  I mean come on...if you're going to be outraged here, at least be consistent with your faux outrage.

Honestly...who gives a ****?  So a few guys kneel instead of stand for 2 minutes before a game.  You're going to get outraged about THAT to the point of not enjoying the football games you used to enjoy watching but yet...divert no attention, time, etc. to police brutality against minorities?

People need to check themselves.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #218 on: September 28, 2017, 07:58:02 AM »
1. Is it "wrong" to #takeaknee(in this context)?
2. What issues are being addressed by this situation? Are their somewhat simple solutions?
3. Is it appropriate for a president to comment in the way he did? Is this exceptional; could he have commented in a way that had less of a Constitutional aspect?

1. No.  You can do whatever you want during the anthem.  U.S. flag code are only guidelines, not law.  You will not be arrested for kneeling, sitting, skipping, napping, etc. during the anthem.  In this context, at least as far as the original context of being respectful of veterans while trying to call out racial and social injustices, no it is not wrong.

2. The main issue was police brutality against minorities going unchecked (evidenced by the fact that 104 unarmed black people were shot and killed by police in 2015 - that's 5x higher than for unarmed white people.  Yet, of those 104 cases, only 13 ever saw charges filed against the officer).  No, I don't think there are simple solutions.  We've seen the rise in body cameras in some cities.  Some police departments have taken it upon themselves to conduct de-escalation training.  Largely, though, it is going to take a long time to deal with this issue and because it has more to do with a "mindset" it's going to be more difficult to change.

3. No.  Then again, most things #45 says are not appropriate by most civilized standards.  If you're a white nationalist then they seem totally fine.  But for the highest executive of this country to call players who don't stand for the anthem "sons of bitches" who should be "fired" is completely out of line.  I think most of that has been detailed here, so I won't re-hash that.
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Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #219 on: September 28, 2017, 08:05:54 AM »


Quote
Quote
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.

Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?



Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

kamille

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #220 on: September 28, 2017, 08:09:45 AM »
Because it is easier to understand the symbolic behavior of patriotism than the complexities of what true patriotism really means.

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #221 on: September 28, 2017, 08:15:11 AM »
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

EDIT - poor pot shot taken.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 10:01:39 AM by DarkandStormy »
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #222 on: September 28, 2017, 08:59:11 AM »
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?

Do they defend the Confederate flag while whining about disrespecting the national anthem?

Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #223 on: September 28, 2017, 08:59:24 AM »
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.

Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #224 on: September 28, 2017, 09:06:46 AM »
And for the record, I know someone who was a Trump voter, Trump supporter and definitely fits the demographic we're discussing and their reaction was, "C'mon Trump, why'd you have to go their. That's just dumb.

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #225 on: September 28, 2017, 09:11:17 AM »
And for the record, I know someone who was a Trump voter, Trump supporter and definitely fits the demographic we're discussing and their reaction was, "C'mon Trump, why'd you have to go their. That's just dumb.

Yes, of course there are outliers.

Let's hope those people have the sense to re-evaluate their support.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #226 on: September 28, 2017, 09:13:58 AM »
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.

Fair enough...I retract the statement.
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Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #227 on: September 28, 2017, 09:18:53 AM »
Tell you what. Look around at the people who are calling these protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Then, look at the civil rights movement, and check out the people who were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

See any similarities? Those are the people I'm talking about. They have some pretty similar demographic characteristics.

I'll play...do they have similar demographic characteristics as the alt-right rally group in Charlottesville?
Hey now, isn't stereotyping the root cause of this protest in the first place?

Some stereotypes are born from reality and some are born from perception but none of them do us any good.

Fair enough...I retract the statement.
We need more of this in these discussions :) I think we all say things we'd like to take back from time to time but very few ever do. More often heels are dug in until the subject changes.

Kris

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Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

SoundFuture

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #229 on: September 28, 2017, 09:32:59 AM »
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #230 on: September 28, 2017, 09:39:57 AM »
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

simonsez

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #231 on: September 28, 2017, 09:41:09 AM »
To those that feel an action or a protest does nothing, whether in the short term or long term - my question is (and this is rhetorical, not directed at anyone personally), how do you know it does nothing?

How do we know something wouldn't be worse if those "meaningless" actions hadn't started a conversation or inspired others in the past?  We don't.  Maybe the civil rights movement doesn't happen until the 1970s if earlier less important events hadn't transpired in a certain way?  Maybe, maybe not.

Let people speak their mind and listen (if you choose to) rather than hand waive it away because it's annoying or not important to you as you don't have to deal with whatever injustice someone different is talking about.  And don't detract from the issue by making it about something else (support of the military) or asking questions that aren't directly relevant (black on black crime, etc.) to what the action or protest represents. 

I think we're all *aware* of breast cancer now.  We are in that awareness phase with this topic now.  Hopefully we can all be aware about injustices involving black people and the police and down the road eventually (hopefully sooner than later) see more equitable human treatment.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #232 on: September 28, 2017, 09:44:53 AM »
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead. 
I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...
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surfhb

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #233 on: September 28, 2017, 09:45:03 AM »
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right.


Not even close.   People who were young adults during the civil rights era are running the country.  Several members of congress were staunch segregationist.    That attitude just doesn't disappear like magic.

I'd also like to add that cops shooting and incarcerating disproportionately amounts innocent  n**gers is nothing new....it's old as dirt.   We just get to see and hear the fun with all the cell phones and social media.    The story continues......deep seeded racism is alive and well in America
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 09:56:23 AM by surfhb »

GuitarStv

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #234 on: September 28, 2017, 09:45:17 AM »
Seems to say that there is a group of people who throughout history have stood in the way of all progress.   Those people were not identified.   Who are these people?    Republicans?  White people?  People from the state of Georgia?   Left handed people?

I think the group you're looking for is the social conservatives.

By definition, this is the group that will stand in the way of social change.  They typically didn't like women voting, they wanted to keep their slaves, they didn't like inter-racial or gay marriage, like to control what two consenting adults can decide to do sex-wise, typically refuse to refer to a trans-gendered person by their preferred sexual identifier, they don't see any reason to change how current policing impacts minorities, they don't believe that women should be allowed to have abortions or access to birth control, they don't believe trans-gendered people should use the bathroom they want to, etc.

This group doesn't like social change, so has historically been on the wrong side of every social change issue that has come up.  There are (and have been) white, black, Republican, Democrat, Georgian, Californian, Left and Right Handed social conservatives.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 10:59:59 AM by GuitarStv »

Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #235 on: September 28, 2017, 10:13:28 AM »
Today in The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
I think this kind of sarcasm might actually get through to some people. I don't know that the people who need this message read the Onion but still, kudos Richard Winowski.

SoundFuture

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #236 on: September 28, 2017, 10:28:03 AM »

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.

That attitude just doesn't disappear like magic.

That's exactly my point.  You need to deal with the people rather than write them off as imbeciles.

I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...

I'm not talking about congress.  I'm talking about the people of the United States that are torn and divided on the subject.  You might as well start talking about an assisted living center if you're going to talk about congress.  Legislation at the Federal level is just one thing that can happen but the state and local levels could just as easily step up.  My parents were too young to know what was going on with the Civil Rights Era. My wife's parents are too young to know what was going on either (and they're about 8 years older than my parents).  Most of our grandparents who would know much are dead. 

I don't believe that most people are innately evil. I do believe that a lot of people are mislead. I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm trying to give you a different way to think about it. Another tool for your toolbox if you will.  You need different methods for dealing with different people.  If all we do is collectively come to a general agreement that something is wrong and something must be done, which we can do on apparently every other issue even if we disagree on remedies (except maybe climate change), we'd be in a much better place than we are now.

I will gladly leave you all be, but I wanted to at least give you a chance to hear from someone who agrees with you on this issue while probably also thinking a lot differently than you do.  I hate seeing my friends get in arguments and part ways with each other over something as simple as recognizing the perpetual racism in the country (white and black friendships, which we need more than ever).

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #237 on: September 28, 2017, 10:49:40 AM »

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #238 on: September 28, 2017, 11:17:27 AM »
I'm just going to disagree with this point right off the bat. Sure, Wallace and a few other statesmen are long dead, but many of those who protested for and against the civil rights movement are very much still alive. What's more, they're all boomers and still the most influential voting block in the US.  My parents are among them (for the record, they were pro civil rights and marched several times in DC).  Many CURRENT members of the US congress were in college during the civil rights movement, several of them were very active.
Those who were in their 20s and early 30s durng the civil rights movement are now in their 70s and 80s.

The 'civil rights era' is not so long ago...

I'm not talking about congress.  I'm talking about the people of the United States that are torn and divided on the subject.  You might as well start talking about an assisted living center if you're going to talk about congress.  Legislation at the Federal level is just one thing that can happen but the state and local levels could just as easily step up.  My parents were too young to know what was going on with the Civil Rights Era. My wife's parents are too young to know what was going on either (and they're about 8 years older than my parents).  Most of our grandparents who would know much are dead. 

Did you read what I wrote?  It's not just congress.  The people who developed their political ideologies* during the civil rights movement are very much alive. They vote more often than any other demographic and to return to the OP many of these people (socially conservative white males) are the very ones who are getting so angry at the protests.

*most people develop their political ideologies in their early 20s.  They are now in the 70s.
I'm sorry your grandparents died so young.
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megaschnauzer

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #239 on: September 28, 2017, 11:20:54 AM »

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

simonsez

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #240 on: September 28, 2017, 11:46:35 AM »
they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.
Was it an issue when the non-football aspects prior to kickoff were added to the broadcasts?

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #241 on: September 28, 2017, 11:49:00 AM »

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

runbikerun

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #242 on: September 28, 2017, 12:11:27 PM »
Yes it is the slow creep of what becomes the norm.  The "new normal" if you will, to borrow a pop culture phrase, which was all the rage after 9/11.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware person, but I admit I was brought to task by the comment in this thread for an earlier poster about how people from other countries look at our attachment to the flag and scratch their heads.  This was a bit of a surprise to me, and more importantly made me aware of how easy it is to assume that everyone does or thinks the way I do.  While I know that is patently false, it is a trap that was proven easy to fall in to.  I only see other countries anthems and flags when I watch the Olympics and they seem to revere the flag, stand at attention and sing and tear up just as I do as am American with my flag, so it threw me for a loop to hear the opinion voiced that they are not thinking about their flag and anthem the same way we do here in the US.

DarkandStormy's comment about 2009 being a turning point for the NFL is analyzed on snopes.com pretty well along with some other places, and this is not entirely accurate either.  The league did start receiving money then, yes, but players for most games were already out on the field for the national anthem, and the change that is referenced was only put in place for prime time games and that was to help with TV not with patriotism.  As always it is easy for us to conflate things that fit into our confirmation bias.  Let's analyze the situation with an objective lens and not sling around things without doing some research.

That may have been me mentioning the difference in how the flag is regarded outside the US. At the Olympics, and other international sporting events, you do indeed see plenty of national flags; however, in a large chunk of Europe, that's about the only time you'll see the national flag being flown outside a government building.

It's probably not a coincidence that there's a strong tradition in Europe (I don't have the exposure to other cultures to comment outside of Europe) of questioning whether your nation's history is, on balance, positive. The British, for example, have been debating the appropriate level of guilt for their colonial history for decades now, and consequently the Union Jack carries a very specific and negative connotation in a lot of situations. American discourse, by comparison, tends to start from the assumption that America is fundamentally a force for good, and that the national flag is an uncontroversial symbol of goodness.

That's not to say that what's going on in the States has no parallel on the other side of the Atlantic. There's an annual debate over the wearing of the poppy by footballers, and occasionally some less tolerant elements elect to abuse players who'd rather not commemorate anything to do with the British military. But compared to Kaepernick, it's a storm in a teacup.

SoundFuture

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #243 on: September 28, 2017, 12:29:09 PM »
they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

This is a lot of it. The military paying for all the extra hub-ub stuff is pretty new. It's become a part of the " 'merica " crowd's ethos (what I identified as civic religion before, which I believe is a lot of it).  I'll admit even though I believe in racial equality I knee jerked when Kaepernick first took a knee last year. I didn't understand exactly what it was but I knew I didn't like it. Then I heard him speak and I knew he was right. What someone thought was a real slick move by Trump to turn this into an issue about dishonoring the country, is going have backlash, and if he keeps that lid on the boiling the pot the pressure will eventually make it explode. Obama let the lid seal let off the excess pressure so other's could hear it without it blowing up, but Trump is trying to get everyone else to clamp it back down.

For me personally, I played football through college. It was the one place in the whole world where everyone is equal. Performance and game awareness is all that mattered. At first I was upset that someone would chose this venue, the one place we all gathered together without care for race or ethnicity and were genuinely equal, to make us stare down our past and current failures. But it's really the perfect place for it, because it's the place for me personally that I developed the relationships I have with most of my friends of color. I'd have never been around them enough to be real friends if it weren't for this.  I probably wouldn't have grown to empathize with their problems without this sport, without blood, sweat, and tears shed on the same turf working on common goals.  It's an example of how each of us has things to contribute, and how each of our natural and earned unique talents makes the team better.


Did you read what I wrote?  It's not just congress.  The people who developed their political ideologies* during the civil rights movement are very much alive. They vote more often than any other demographic and to return to the OP many of these people (socially conservative white males) are the very ones who are getting so angry at the protests.

*most people develop their political ideologies in their early 20s.  They are now in the 70s.
I'm sorry your grandparents died so young.

Sorry friend I didn't give you enough credit. They weren't too young, 80s and 90s (one in their 70s with a rare undiagnosed blood disorder), but I appreciate the sympathy.  I'll admit the weirdest situation I have now is I interact with a lot of older progressive white women (quite by happenstance). I'm so used to the "other side of the coin", it's a bit of a bizarro world for me. 

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #244 on: September 28, 2017, 01:01:44 PM »
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.
Wrapping a flag around your head like so many bikers and others do with their do-rag is the one that really gets my goat.  Even having in on clothing has always been questionable.  You should not be wearing a flag.

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #245 on: September 28, 2017, 01:04:57 PM »
this has been a great discussion. i feel like i'm informed now. this may have been mentioned upthread somewhere; is it unpatriotic to not stand for the national anthem if you are watching the game at home on tv?
Don't think anyone does it (at least they haven't at any event I've seen), so I'll go with no.

There's probably a lot of other treatments of the flag that are more borderline. Using the flag for advertisements is a no-no, but it's done all the time. Is it really bad if you're having a 4th of July sale, though? Not so sure about that...a case of GM selling a car while waving a flag all-year round, because it's "America's brand" would be unquestionably disrespectful, IMO.
Wrapping a flag around your head like so many bikers and others do with their do-rag is the one that really gets my goat.  Even having in on clothing has always been questionable.  You should not be wearing a flag.

Then there's this:

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

caracarn

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #246 on: September 28, 2017, 01:13:55 PM »
I'm going to add some respectful discussion. The people who were against the Civil Rights Era are mostly dead.  The people that are largely ignorantly (whether intentionally or honestly) opposing equality now are different people, raised in a different time, in a different environment.

A lot of the people who are in opposition to the current protests think they support everything about the Civil Right Act, when they're mostly misled by the romanticized white-washed version of history about that time.  They don't teach you a lot about the brutality or the scale of the Civil Rights Era in school and they certainly don't take it seriously in the news.  Most of them aren't alt-right. Most of them are right, center-right, center, slightly authoritarian leaning, and everyone in-between.  The only real commonality is that they are mostly white and embrace a civil religious observance around a sporting event.

So the whole "you were wrong last time" argument doesn't really work, but it is an excellent way to create enemies where there were none previously.

Apart of my plea here to help you get better at your argument if you want things to change.  Sure you could really force it down people's throats (which is likely to happen), it might even give you a little personal high (hey you're the good person helping people here right?), but it's not going to help society progress to do that (all the people with the backwards views still exist and in the same numbers, and they'll have kids and teach them those same backwards views, and they all have voting rights and select politicians with their views which will work really hard to retroactively undo whatever progress you make). 

Black Lives Matter and all of the efforts around it is one of the single most important issues of our time domestically and I say that as someone who has a conservative mind, and who is constantly dealing with family that doesn't "get it".  There are plenty of worthless trolls and a-holes out there, don't turn yourself into just another one of them.

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.
Whenever they try to do that I just laugh at them because they never fly the confederate flag.  They use the battle flag of Virginia.  Never ever was the confederate flag.  Their to dense to understand their error and continue to rally behind something that isn't even the symbol of what they think they believe in.  Since it was just a banner from the army not sure how treasonous it is, but it's certainly in poor taste.

MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #247 on: September 28, 2017, 01:15:43 PM »

The commonalities: mostly white, mostly conservative. And they live in conservative states and conservative areas that are actively trying to white-wash history. History books remove information about that brutality in those states as "anti-American." People argue for the free flying of a confederate flag that is a symbol of white nationalism and racism, not to mention a symbol of treason against the actual American flag.

The Civil rights movement was not that long ago. There are still plenty of people who were around then who are still alive now. Jeff Sessions, for example. And a lot of them are in positions of power in the governments of those states, at the federal level, in corporate America, and the owners of media.

I'm white, mostly conservative, and live in a conservative state.  I'm even protestant Christian. I'm your ideal candidate for being one of these people, but I'm not.  Yes, there are plenty of people that are still alive from that time, but every person who's essentially under 65 has no real adult level comprehension of that time and that's almost all of society (roughly 85% of the population).

Playing down the Civil Rights Era, as well as slavery and our complicity with it and other forms of abuses, is historically a near universal thing with white people in the United States.  Jeff Sessions and Trump definitely do not help, but they are two people in roughly half the country (with a lot of influence unfortunately).  I'm not giving them a pass. I'm saying that there are tens of millions of people who just don't realize what they're supporting by choosing to allow themselves to be upset about something that offends their civic religion.


Yes. That is absolutely true. Because they don't have to think about it. And they prefer not to, I suppose, because it would make them feel a little discomfort.

A majority of white people in every single demographic voted for Trump. And many, many of them probably knee-jerk disapprove of athletes taking a knee, because it's "unseemly" or something. Maybe they aren't racist. They are just completely uninterested in racial justice. Because they don't have to be interested in it.

Unfortunately, on a practical level, it amounts to the same thing.

they are watching football to be entertained not confronted with issues.

Anthem is pre-game, not during the game. If you only care about the game then watch something else until it starts. Amazingly simple!!

Laura33

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #248 on: September 28, 2017, 01:16:14 PM »
What someone thought was a real slick move by Trump to turn this into an issue about dishonoring the country, is going have backlash, and if he keeps that lid on the boiling the pot the pressure will eventually make it explode. Obama let the lid seal let off the excess pressure so other's could hear it without it blowing up, but Trump is trying to get everyone else to clamp it back down.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/opinions/what-trumps-gut-knows-about-the-nfl-controversy-jennings/index.html

I don't know this guy from Adam; for all I know, he could be an alt-right hack.*  But the poll he reports seems to suggest that Trump is just saying out loud what a large segment of American society believes.

Personally, I strongly disagree; to me, peacefully protesting is one of the most patriotic things you can do.  The right to self-government -- the right of the people to make our government what we want it to be -- is the most fundamental right granted in the Constitution.  That is precisely why the First Amendment protects free speech:  because those who speak out force us to ask what we really want our country to stand for.  Speaking, listening, protesting, and arguing about what our country should and shouldn't do are core American values and highly patriotic actions; stifling dissent is anti-American. 

But if almost 3 out of 4 Americans think that taking a knee is "unpatriotic," I am in a very small minority -- that "coastal elite" that everyone loves to disparage.  Which also means that public backlash is going to be a long time coming.

*I do think his objection to the protests (because the anthem is a "ritual that "reminds us that we are all, as Americans, in this together.") fundamentally misses the point:  the protests are specifically saying "you are not treating me as a full, equal American."  I can't think of a more effective way to say that than by refusing to participate in the weekly national bonding ritual. 
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #249 on: September 28, 2017, 01:20:52 PM »
Imagine being so offended by these anthem protests because you think they're "unpatriotic" you refuse to watch the NFL anymore...AND at the same time you're defending the right to fly the traitorous Confederate flag and think the Confederate monuments should stay in place.  These people exist.
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