Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 11439 times)

Travis

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #150 on: September 26, 2017, 11:47:34 AM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.


There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Can you be more specific? Which statements were trolling?  Also, your earlier post assumes the people upset about President Trump for the Nazi-stuff are the same who are upset with him here. Glancing over this discussion only a couple folks even mentioned those events being related here.

This issue regarding the president's comments isn't just him "commenting on the national anthem" as you put it. He didn't just say "I like the anthem." He said that a "son of a bitch" player being fired for protesting would be a good thing.  Whether or not you like what the players are doing, it isn't illegal and the president is excitedly calling for their removal. People are having a problem with that.


It is about the national anthem, and RunBikeRun isn't wrong. The song itself is about the flag, and they pull a football field-sized flag out during the singing of the anthem. It's kinda hard to miss.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:49:16 AM by Travis »
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hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #151 on: September 26, 2017, 11:52:57 AM »
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #152 on: September 26, 2017, 11:56:00 AM »

The anthem is just a representation of the refusal to give up even though the fort was bombarded throughout the night. The author of the song was telling the captives below in the boat that the american flag was still flying, i.e.; they had not given up.
well... not quite.  The words to the Star Spangled Banner (aka the"National Anthem") were composed as a poem by Francis Scott Key during the war of 1812 as he sat on a ship in the Baltimore harbor while the British shelled Ft. McHenry.
It was set to music later, and there's no evidence Key ever intended it to be a song (let along an anthem) when he composed it. His brother first linked his poem to a popular song (already written).  It didn't officially become the national anthem for another 100+ years. 

Fun fact - the part that is sung during the National Anthem is only the first of four stanzas.  Each ends with the line: O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2017, 11:59:33 AM »

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country
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Travis

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #154 on: September 26, 2017, 12:03:48 PM »
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.
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hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2017, 12:06:15 PM »

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country

We are not disagreeing. I said the anthem itself, as in the words contained, their meaning at the time etc. No biggie. Our practice of standing is weird, other than it is better for audibility(is that word?) to stand while singing. So maybe that is where the practice came from.

Every country has national anthems....what is your point? If I were in Denmark or some other European(whereever RBR is from) country I would stand or take some other respectful position, just wouldn't sing the words etc.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2017, 12:06:54 PM »

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).
Honestly?  You cannot understand why some people might take offense at being compelled to stand at attention in front of a flag?

Here are two reasons:
If a person feels that they or their community have suffered injustice under the laws of said country
If they are not actually from that country

I don't want to get this too off topic but I think if I was ever in another country and their anthem was being played at an event I was at. I would stand out of respect for my host (is that what you mean?). Unless of course I was there unwilling and then I would probably be forced to stand at gunpoint or something.
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craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2017, 12:11:49 PM »
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.


Ahhhh would you rather they protest behind closed doors, in a quiet manner as to not disturb neighbors? 

The definition of a protest is to express disaproval. The athletes are expressing their disaproval that America is the land of the "free" for everyone in it, while the anthem is being performed. That's as American as it can get.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 12:14:01 PM by craiglepaige »
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Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2017, 12:30:40 PM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.
I'm trying to figure out how to say you're missing the point, but I think Toque explained it as well as I can.

Your post is not relevant. This has nothing to do with Trump commenting on the anthem, your comment really has me confused.

Any who, I can't speak for everyone but I would be against any president calling for someone to be punished for nonviolent protest.

Edit: One other thing, a lot of Trump supporters are upset about this, it's not just his opponents. Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones, vetererans and current military. Pretty much just diehard supporters, some over nationalistic muricans, and the WH are backing him.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 12:43:26 PM by Dabnasty »

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2017, 12:36:39 PM »

Any who, I can't speak for everyone but I would be against any president calling for someone to be punished for nonviolent protest.
^This.  Several posters have already made this point up-thread, but it bears repeating.  The big "D" here is that the president is verbally attacking peaceful protesters and calling on their employer to fire them.
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dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2017, 12:57:54 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

LDoon

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2017, 01:04:07 PM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.

Do you not see a difference between the POTUS disapproving of a form of protest that occurs during a national anthem, and the POTUS calling the protesters sons of bitches and saying they should be fired? 

It's easy enough to assert a belief about the national anthem being an important song and any disagreeing with actions that detract. (E.g., imagine a statement from any of the other 44 presidents).  Literally being the head of the federal government and calling for punishment of U.S. citizens participating in a peaceful protest because you disagree with the form of the protest is reprehensible.

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2017, 01:04:37 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I think you mean conservatives fall for convenient lies. They certainly are not doing much about getting their policies in place.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2017, 01:10:31 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I mean, yes, Trump won this election, but Democrats won the last two. So what does that have to do with this particular topic?  To bring this back around, what's your take on the "take a knee" protest?
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2017, 01:15:41 PM »
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2017, 01:21:56 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place struggle to implement policies. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

FTFY. Totally off topic but as a reminder, Clinton mopped the floor with Trump in popular vote. I agree though folks still need to get out and vote and those that don't should. I disagree about less protesting. The election is over and all we have now to combat Trump's assault on the Constitution is protesting.

dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2017, 01:22:52 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

I think you mean conservatives fall for convenient lies. They certainly are not doing much about getting their policies in place.

I think conservatives generally get their policies in place. Look at the tax rates. Look at the gerrymandering. Look at military spending. Look at criminal sentencing. Look at union busting. On top of this conservatives have shifted the entire political spectrum over the last 20-30 years to the right. Democrats nowadays hold positions that were solidly Republican/conservative 20 years ago (it's only now starting to shift a bit).

All of this is happening because liberals are too busy quibbling over the cause du jour than having any coherent strategy to win elections. And you can say Trump is an idiot (and I believe he generally behaves idiotically) but liberals love taking the bait. This most recent tweet is an excellent example.

I mean, yes, Trump won this election, but Democrats won the last two. So what does that have to do with this particular topic?  To bring this back around, what's your take on the "take a knee" protest?

I think that Democrats won the last two presidential elections because they had an oustanding, once in a generation candidate and who won't easily be replicated. Democrats, demographics-wise and issues-wise should be crushing republicans, but they just don't vote.

What is has to do with this topic is what I wrote above. The take a knee tweet was a clear play by the President to bait liberals into a nothing issue. I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2017, 01:26:59 PM »
But... conservatives ... get their policies in place.

I know this is OT, but had to do it - http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/health-care-republican-senate-vote/index.html

The best thing that could happen to republicans is that they fail to repeal/replace the ACA. This way they can still blame their favorite demon, Obama, for health care. The base will be riled up to primary out republicans by going to their right, and even if they don't primary out so-called RINOs republicans fall in line and will come out to vote for republicans even if they are RINOs.

Imagine they passed the repeal/replace? It would be a disaster for replubicans because the replacement is so terrible that their electorate would be forced to admit they fucked up health care this time.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2017, 01:33:37 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.
Very true and reminds me of the famous scene in the first episode of The Newsroom when Jeff Daniels' character goes off on how liberals are losers. 

However, more conservatives are dying off than liberals generally so we'll probably have less complaining about kneeling and other peaceful protests moving forward as the country becomes more blue.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2017, 01:40:15 PM »
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them. 
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dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #170 on: September 26, 2017, 01:53:22 PM »
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #171 on: September 26, 2017, 02:04:16 PM »
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

I think this is where the direction of this thread is heading. Not so much whether taking a knee is disrespectful; rather, discussing the effectiveness of such actions. I have no objection to the act of taking a knee. It's a peaceful form of protest, which should always be encouraged over alternate violent methods. How effective is actually taking a knee?  Can't say I know the answer to this question.  It certainly gets people talking, which is a good thing(?), though I still question the productivity of #takeaknee to tangible results.  Good points dividendman.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:09:33 PM by Cwadda »

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #172 on: September 26, 2017, 02:11:37 PM »
Well, it certainly got people talking, which was the goal.

hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #173 on: September 26, 2017, 02:12:38 PM »
Well, it certainly got people talking, which was the goal.

Trump the facilitator?


lol, couldn't resist.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #174 on: September 26, 2017, 02:13:57 PM »
/\
I think your quote posting got a little messed up.

Yes, Pledge and Anthem are different. I think when Runbikerun mentioned "worship" of a flag that sounds like "I pledge allegiance the the flag..."

the Anthem, on its own merits is not that big of a deal, I am not sure why anyone would take offense to it other than it is just a time and place to protest some current US event(assuming someone is kneeling etc).

Yep, I caught that and fixed it.  I don't think anyone]/b] is taking offense to the song in particular, but that at a very public event of its singing (being sung?) that moment is used for an unrelated protest.  As Runbikerun stated and I've encountered myself on multiple occasions, most Europeans don't show as much reverence to their national symbols as Americans do and the amount of attention we're placing on this issue is odd to them.


Ahhhh would you rather they protest behind closed doors, in a quiet manner as to not disturb neighbors? 

The definition of a protest is to express disaproval. The athletes are expressing their disaproval that America is the land of the "free" for everyone in it, while the anthem is being performed. That's as American as it can get.

Me? No. If you're going to protest, it doesn't do much good behind closed doors. I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about the people you were calling out.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #175 on: September 26, 2017, 02:58:22 PM »
I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere.

So protesting police brutality and Trump's desire to stop it on a national forum is ridiculous? Hmmm, interesting.

Sidenote: Yes, people, I don't care what political denomination, need to get out and vote. Educate themselves in the matters they are interested in and search for the political entity that best suits them.

Yes, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #176 on: September 26, 2017, 03:50:53 PM »
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #177 on: September 26, 2017, 04:03:56 PM »
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

You might also notice that the ineffective, boisterous and offensive gay pride parades somehow got us gay marriage legalized.
The "Negro protests" of the 1960s, derided by the white folk at the time as "hurtful to the Negro cause" did somehow get a Civil Rights Act passed.
Women's suffrage.
Black suffrage.

The list of "ineffective" and "hurtful to themselves" protesters who spread awareness and accomplished their goals is significant.

Toque.

Yup.

And every single time, the same groups of people were calling those protests "ineffective" and "counterproductive" and "useless" and "unpatriotic."

Every. Single. Time.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #178 on: September 26, 2017, 04:05:28 PM »
es, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting. I didn't ever suggest we "sit idly by" I suggest doing something that has actual impacts rather than just doing something that makes you feel good but results in nothing.

Saying I support the #takeaknee or retweeting it might make me feel good but it doesn't advance anything. It's a lazy way to pretend you're doing something. The civil rights movement accomplished so much because so many put themselves in harms way to advance a righteous cause. Not only that but they lobbied and influenced elected leaders to change policy. If it was only black athletes resting on a knee nothing would have changed.

Policy and elections don't fix racism, that's true. What does fix it? Retweets? Resting on a knee? I was never suggesting they would "fix racism" but they can start change so less actual police violence occurs, isn't that the goal?

I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:08:44 PM by dividendman »

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #179 on: September 26, 2017, 04:11:59 PM »
es, it's ridiculous because it accomplishes nothing except perhaps motivating your opponents.

Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?

Here's an example of how these protests do nothing:
The white mayor of Ferguson was re-elected this April. He was in charge when the questionable police activity took place. He was re-elected by city population that is 67% black and 29% white and he was running against a black councilwoman. I'm not saying he shouldn't be elected because he's white. I'm just pointing out the demographics and the fact that if you want change you need to elect different people!

Protest with a result in mind. Not just to protest. Protest to impact a specific election so policies will change.
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

That's why no one remembers Rosa Parks, MLK, the entire civil rights movement etc. etc. You know because it accomplished nothing. Suggesting we all sit idly by and ignore police brutality is disgusting. Policy and elections don't fix racism. You are remarkably ignorant about what they are bringing attention too.

Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting. I didn't ever suggest we "sit idly by" I suggest doing something that has actual impacts rather than just doing something that makes you feel good but results in nothing.

Saying I support the #takeaknee or retweeting it might make me feel good but it doesn't advance anything. It's a lazy way to pretend you're doing something. The civil rights movement accomplished so much because so many put themselves in harms way to advance a righteous cause. Not only that but they lobbied and influenced elected leaders to change policy. If it was only black athletes resting on a knee nothing would have changed.

Policy and elections don't fix racism, that's true. What does fix it? Retweets? Resting on a knee? I was never suggesting they would "fix racism" but they can start change so less actual police violence occurs, isn't that the goal?

I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.

Plenty of people have been doing all that, as well. Right down to the firehoses, or being run over, or ...

Telecaster

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #180 on: September 26, 2017, 04:50:24 PM »

P.S. To FrugalToque's comment I would reply the same as the above, those acts took considerable courage, effort, and risked the safety of the participants. Millionaire football players resting for a bit isn't that.

Colin Kaepernick doesn't have a job, but Blake Bortles does.  There is quite a bit of personal risk, at least there was at first.  It cost Kaepernick millions.   However, Trump gave everyone cover to join the protests without repercussions, so there is that. 

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #181 on: September 26, 2017, 05:08:11 PM »
I found the following commentary from conservative writer Jennifer Rubin pertinent to this discussion:

Quote from: Jennifer Rubin
Those who get caught up in the style of the marchersí hats or the type of kneeling (Before or after the anthem is fine, but by josh no more!) miss the point. Preserving a democracy with engaged citizenry is not afternoon tea time. It is sometimes noisy, controversial, even impolite because that is how democracies are. Free citizens express themselves in ways that other free citizens donít like; they argue about it. How extraordinary is that?
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #182 on: September 26, 2017, 06:25:11 PM »
Suggesting an equivalency between NFL millionaire athletes comfortably resting on one knee for 2 minutes to Rosa Parks and MLK and the civil rights movement is what's disgusting.

First off nice straw-man. Your original statement was "I think it's a ridiculous protest on all fronts and I think energy would be better spent organizing for the ballot box than retweeting #takeaknee everywhere." Protest are the hallmark of change when it comes to civil rights and I provided distinct examples. You can't vote away racism. Secondly when you are still fighting for the same cause it's an absolute equivalence. They are protesting in their own way. MLK used a microphone. Rosa Parks used a bus. Kaepernick and others are using a football stadium.

Quote
I'm still awestruck by you comparing this display by millionaires risking little to sit-ins and people getting hosed by fire departments and Rosa Parks being force-ably removed form a bus... wow. This spectacle is NOT that in any way.

I didn't compare anything especially not millionaires. Your continued reference to them as millionaires instead of actual people is deplorable. They are people, not objects that can be bought and commanded. Stop bringing up money as if it should have some say in their moral actions.

And oh, being called a "son of a bitch" by the President and telling owners they should be fired along with the vast amount of death threats, yeah not quite a forcible removable from a bus (arguably worse). And the folks who have lost loved ones to excessive and unnecessary police violence might contend your point as well.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 06:27:56 PM by MasterStache »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #183 on: September 26, 2017, 07:09:06 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.

dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #184 on: September 26, 2017, 07:10:26 PM »
OK. I am completely wrong.

We liberals should continue to:

1) Treat everything as equally bad when we protest and use language. Me calling NFL players millionaires is deplorable. White folks wearing native american headdresses is deplorable. Half of the people voting for Trump are deplorable. Trump calling NFL millionaires players sons of bitches is deplorable. Cops shooting unarmed black folks is deplorable. It's all the same now that I think about it.
2) Use famous hollywood millionaire actors and professional athletes to be the mouthpieces of our protests because the medium doesn't really matter. They are totally relateable and can influence people to join our cause. It will be just as effective as using people from the middle class or blue-collar workers who have been recently abused by the police.
3) Not focus on specific electoral outcomes because "creating awareness" is the goal unto itself

The above will definitely rally the uneducated masses to our liberal causes and allow us the electoral victories we need to start making the legal and policy changes necessary to have a more fair society.

P.S. I just saw WhiteTrashCash's post - ridiculous! The protests changed everything and these current protests by rich stars will have an even greater change - you'll see!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:15:14 PM by dividendman »

scottish

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #185 on: September 26, 2017, 08:15:51 PM »
Here's a little rant on protests.

Liberals are great at protesting. They protest all sorts of real or perceived injustices. They get massive crowds out and do all sorts of amazing rallying and "create awareness" of all sorts of great issues which deserve attention. They have great late-night talk shows and comedians making excellent satire and witty jokes which brings even more attention to issues. They are even amazingly effective at counter-protesting and forcing right wing extremists from being able to make grotesque speeches. They are amazing at interrupting congressional proceedings and putting pies in the faces of politicians to shame the politicians for their ludicrous stances.

But... conservatives vote, win elections, and get their policies in place. So... maybe less protesting and more voting would do some good.

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.

Protests socialize ideas.   Some gather speed and become accepted.   Some don't.   It's a long process.    M. Musk's way is much faster, but requires a much more exceptional person or group of people to execute.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #186 on: September 26, 2017, 08:17:29 PM »

When I was a kid, popular TV shows went on and on about the "revolution" that happened during the anti-war protests of the Vietnam War and how they changed everything. Then I actually learned the history of the war and realized that even though the protests were happening in the late 1960s, the war continued until 1975. All those anti-war protests did jack squat.

It's extremely disheartening to read your comments regarding the protests against the Vietnam war and how they did jack squat. Truly awful. No, the protester did not stop the war right then and there, nor did they make crooked-ass Nixon bring back the troops instantly, but it was something they believed in and it was something some of them gave their lives for. Yes, the war continued for another 4-5 years but to say it did jack squat it's incredibly short minded. 

What would have happened if the protests hadn't started and people just fell in line with the bullshit Nixon was slinging?   



It's like how the environmental movement is going today. People share memes or donate to Greenpeace or send letters to their Congressman and it's done no good at all. You know who is actually making a difference? Elon Musk. He invested billions of dollars of his own money to essentially invent the exponentially expanding electric car industry as well as masterminding the explosion of the solar energy industry in the United States. He is taking on the huge polluting corporations and he's winning.

Fuck Elon Musk. He's only able to do what he's doing because he's a multi-billionaire. Sorry but for normal people like me/us, passing the information, teaching the next generation, donating to a cause/organization, emailing your local government and voting per your morals is ALL you can do. If I had billions, then yeah, I could do as Elon Musk is doing.  So to say he's the ONLY one doing anything is complete bullshit.

People need to stop with the pointless protests where they try to force other people to do things and just get in there and actually do something about the problem themselves. That's one of the biggest problems right now. Everyone wants to make someone else fix things. Nobody actually acts.

Same as above. You speculate that the athletes kneeling in protest are not doing something else. I know Collin Kaepernick donated a million dollars of his own money to support his cause and it's currently blacklisted from the NFL for his opinion/protest. There was a list with the money donated by athletes to the organizations they believe in. So yeah, they are doing something.

Then our idiotic president has the balls to call him a son of a bitch and to ask the NFL to fire the other players from protesting. What the fuck kind of a country does he want for us? One where we can't voice our displeasure because his insane ego can't take it?

 


« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:29:00 PM by craiglepaige »
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Big Boots Buddha

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #187 on: September 26, 2017, 08:39:42 PM »
What Trump did is simple A-B testing. Hes done it again and again, so Im not sure how it has gone over such an intelligent crowd, but here it goes.

Trump picks a topic, such as transgender in the military. Says its bad. 1/3 of the country flips out and says soldiers should blah blah blah, its their right. I was actually not allowed to be a soldier because I couldn't hear incredibly high frequency sounds that you probably lose after bootcamp and putting your ears next to guns all day, but whatever.

1/3 against transgender, 1/3 for transgender, middle 1/3 watches as for transgender get into huge uproar. Generally, average American in small town wherever thinks its probably not someones right to be transgender in the military.

So the left is throwing all its political capital against something that makes it look bad. All trump had to do is send a tweet.

Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

Again, Trump just sends a tweet or makes a remark, Left does all the heavy lifting for him. The city dwelling, highly educated DINK, feminist, Lesbian/Gay crowd isn't going to vote for Trump anyway. But they draw a line in the sand and say, FUCK AMERICA, and tell the undecided voter, you either pick team FUCK AMERICA or you pick standing for the flag seems ok. My guess is that many people will not choose against the flag. If you look at the NYtimes/Amazonpost bubble, sure, Trump is an idiot, but they say that everyday. They also were 99.999% sure he would lose the election, so its hardly damning.

None of this cost Trump a cent. Its how he won and probably will continue to do well.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #188 on: September 26, 2017, 08:47:21 PM »
What Trump did is simple A-B testing. Hes done it again and again, so Im not sure how it has gone over such an intelligent crowd, but here it goes.

Trump picks a topic, such as transgender in the military. Says its bad. 1/3 of the country flips out and says soldiers should blah blah blah, its their right. I was actually not allowed to be a soldier because I couldn't hear incredibly high frequency sounds that you probably lose after bootcamp and putting your ears next to guns all day, but whatever.

1/3 against transgender, 1/3 for transgender, middle 1/3 watches as for transgender get into huge uproar. Generally, average American in small town wherever thinks its probably not someones right to be transgender in the military.

So the left is throwing all its political capital against something that makes it look bad. All trump had to do is send a tweet.

Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

Again, Trump just sends a tweet or makes a remark, Left does all the heavy lifting for him. The city dwelling, highly educated DINK, feminist, Lesbian/Gay crowd isn't going to vote for Trump anyway. But they draw a line in the sand and say, FUCK AMERICA, and tell the undecided voter, you either pick team FUCK AMERICA or you pick standing for the flag seems ok. My guess is that many people will not choose against the flag. If you look at the NYtimes/Amazonpost bubble, sure, Trump is an idiot, but they say that everyday. They also were 99.999% sure he would lose the election, so its hardly damning.

None of this cost Trump a cent. Its how he won and probably will continue to do well.


Very true ;)
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ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #189 on: September 26, 2017, 08:49:22 PM »
Well, if standing up for what is right makes us look bad, this country is pretty screwed.

dividendman

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #190 on: September 26, 2017, 08:55:59 PM »
Well, if standing up for what is right makes us look bad, this country is pretty screwed.

Yes, but the point Big Boots Buddha is making, and I was trying to make, is that people aren't like you. Most people are not educated, most people don't spend time on internet forums discussing politics and the morality of a meritocracy (another thread). Most people are just trying to get by and a lot are struggling. We can't assume everyone should have our sensibilities and act as if that was true. We need to act in a manner that will engage them on the plane they are on because that's how we can persuade them. Ultimately, we need their help to change the country for the better, so we need to communicate with them effectively, not belittle them for not grasping our positions or pushing them away by taking nuanced positions on the American flag because that's the "right" way to go.

If the previous election taught us anything it is that the electorate is not intelligent and cannot grasp nuanced political positions - let's learn that lesson please?

former player

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #191 on: September 27, 2017, 01:12:19 AM »
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #192 on: September 27, 2017, 04:46:13 AM »
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.

Yep. It's ridiculous as are the military displays. Of course it wasn't always this way. Hell they disrespect the flag every time they bring it out on the field and display it horizontally. Yet no one seems to care. Ironic? Kneeling is just another way to protest. And a fantastic one at that. The whole country is talking about it. Many of these players are certainly bringing awareness and advocating off the field as well. Kudos to them all around. 

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #193 on: September 27, 2017, 05:53:41 AM »
Bob Costas weighs in on a ~15 minute interview on CNN.  Many good points made, several echoed upthread

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25/bob-costas-full-nfl-kaepernick-trump-intv-newday.cnn
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Poundwise

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #194 on: September 27, 2017, 06:50:19 AM »
Protesting the flag is similar. Trump sends a tweet. Left comes out and protests against the flag in large numbers, But these people aren't going to vote for Trump anyways, hes a baby killer, Nazi Hitler, right? So he doesn't care. But to the middle 1/3, not its either, you are with the people who hate America and protest the flag, or you are with normal people who feel its not such a bad thing to stand for the flag. People have grandparents who fought in WWII, etc, many have a strong feeling of pride in standing for the anthem, and have for many years.

This wasn't about protesting the flag. It's about protesting the racism that dishonors the flag and our country.

Following video from Dallas sportscaster Dale Hansen is very on-point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #195 on: September 27, 2017, 07:20:43 AM »
Then you get this -
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/09/geauga_sheriff_prohibits_deput.html

"Geauga County, Ohio. Sheriff prohibits deputies from working Browns games over protest during anthem."

Sheriff's quote,
"I'm concerned when the main act stands in front of the crowd, before the game even starts, and commits a blatant disrespectful act towards our flag, our Country, our Veterans and our first responders," Hildenbrand's memo said. "If they do not have respect for us and our Country only bad things will come of that. We will not be a part of these activities."


I don't understand how this is in any way shape or form, a disrespectful act towards the flag/anthem. Closed minded people should not be in a position of power.



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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #196 on: September 27, 2017, 07:25:35 AM »
Is there any reason why the teams/NFL couldn't just sidestep the whole damn issue by not playing the national anthem before the start?  It's a domestic sports game, for dog's sake, not any sort of official or national occasion, so probably shouldn't be playing the national anthem at it anyway.

As long as it is being played, kneeling during it is objectively an entirely respectful way of making a point.  It's some kind of stupid to look at it otherwise.  Supposing it was veterans kneeling during the national anthem to recognise an injustice against them?  Would there be this artificial uproar?  No.

Yep. It's ridiculous as are the military displays. Of course it wasn't always this way. Hell they disrespect the flag every time they bring it out on the field and display it horizontally. Yet no one seems to care. Ironic? Kneeling is just another way to protest. And a fantastic one at that. The whole country is talking about it. Many of these players are certainly bringing awareness and advocating off the field as well. Kudos to them all around.

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.

I'm sure all of these Captain America wannabes are the same ones on their phone during the anthem, finding a beer, eating a hot dog, with an American flag pair of swim trunks, or any other number of violations that "disrespect" the flag.  But no one blew the racist dog whistle for them on those violations so they didn't care.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #197 on: September 27, 2017, 07:35:18 AM »

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.


One of the interesting points made by Dan Costas (link above) is how, at sporting events, the flag and the anthem has become inextricably linked to the military. Without a doubt members of our armed forces make sacrifices for our country, but they are not the only patriots, they are not the only ones who's work furthers our ideals. Yet when the flag is brought out an announcement is made to "please rise in support of the men and women of our armed forces". It's almost always accompanied in pro-sports with uniformed members of our armed forces.
If someone kneels for whatever the reason there's a chorus that he is disrespecting the military, regardless of the reason behind the gesture. Likewise, we never see nobel laureats, NGOs or teachers honored (or "disrespected") during this ritual.

in sum: the flag and anthem has become symbolic of the military at the expense of the broader nation.
That concerns me, as each branch already has their own flag and song/hymn.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #198 on: September 27, 2017, 07:41:39 AM »
Instead of having millionaire athletes take a two minute photo-op every week, why not construct useful policy changing protests? Why not engage in the mayoral elections and get rid of mayors whose police forces seem to be brutalizing the population?
 
I really have no idea what #takeaknee is trying to change besides having less police violence. What policies do they want changed? What police chiefs and mayors do they want removed? What training do they want police to have?

Was your head intentionally or unintentionally in the sand on this?

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

The original protester was 49ers QB Colin Kaepernick, who started the movement last year and was joined by teammate Eric Reid.  They met with Army vets to discuss how to peacefully and respectfully show that they were not happy with the way minorities were/are being treated by police officers who largely escape egregious acts of violence without consequence.

104 unarmed black Americans were shot and killed by police officers in 2015.  That's 5 times more likely than a white American to suffer the same fate.  Of those 104 cases, only 13 saw officers face charges.

So Kaepernick started the kneeling protest as a sign of a respect to the veterans, but also to call out injustices faced by minorities.  He also "does something useful" and "puts his money where his mouth is" by donating $100K/month to charities and organizations who are helping oppressed communities.  He is, by these accounts, a model athlete and a model American.  He's using his platform to protest but also getting involved with these communities.

He led his team to the Super Bowl not that long ago, but largely because of his protests (when it was just him and a teammate) he was ridiculed around the league and became "too toxic" to hire.  He is without a job this season - no team even wants him as a backup.  Many have cited the "circus" that would come with hiring him, even though he has said he would not continue the protest this season.

For me there are two issues here - 1) Conservatives never seem happy with a protest if it's done on behalf of black people.  Was there this much backlash against the Women's March?  What about the Right to Life march?  Here's a peaceful protest that isn't upsetting traffic, your personal life, etc.  It's literally the most non-invasive protest you could have, but look at how conservatives (or at least #cult45 members) are responding.  The faux outrage is astounding.  And all because they got triggered by a racist dog whistle - this wasn't even a blip on the national radar until #45 decided to step in.

And 2) The NFL is a bit hypocritical here.  They're standing "in unity" now and embracing open protests if teams/players choose to do so.  Yet they were silent when Kaepernick did it by himself last year and these same owners - some who joined players on the field this weekend - refuse to hire him now.  I watch some NFL here and there - you can't tell me Kaepernick is worse than whatever the heck the Colts are attempting to do at QB without Andrew Luck.  He's one of the 64 best QBs on talent alone (32 teams - starter & backup) but no one hired him.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 07:43:31 AM by DarkandStormy »
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #199 on: September 27, 2017, 07:50:25 AM »

NFL teams weren't even out on the field for the national anthem prior to 2009.  Then the military and DoD stepped in started paying for patriotism.


One of the interesting points made by Dan Costas (link above) is how, at sporting events, the flag and the anthem has become inextricably linked to the military. Without a doubt members of our armed forces make sacrifices for our country, but they are not the only patriots, they are not the only ones who's work furthers our ideals. Yet when the flag is brought out an announcement is made to "please rise in support of the men and women of our armed forces". It's almost always accompanied in pro-sports with uniformed members of our armed forces.
If someone kneels for whatever the reason there's a chorus that he is disrespecting the military, regardless of the reason behind the gesture. Likewise, we never see nobel laureats, NGOs or teachers honored (or "disrespected") during this ritual.

in sum: the flag and anthem has become symbolic of the military at the expense of the broader nation.
That concerns me, as each branch already has their own flag and song/hymn.

Bush #43 really started this - or I should say, it come to prominence while he was President in the post-9/11 era.  I guess I do remember going to ball games and stuff prior to 2001 where the anthem was sung, but that was about it.  No honored military member or vet involved in the ceremonies, no additional forced patriotism.  Just singing the anthem...and a lot of people probably didn't even pay attention (heck they still don't...getting food, going to the restroom, etc.).

But after 9/11 and when the war started in Iraq, sports took on even more "patriotism."  More military flyovers, vets throwing out the first pitch or being honored, God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch, etc. etc.  And because it was branded as "patriotism" everyone went with it and supported it.

I almost want to spend the money to go to a game and sit for the anthem and see what people would say to me haha but that's not mustachian.
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