Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 10155 times)

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2017, 08:11:45 PM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.


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Miss Piggy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2017, 08:23:46 PM »
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?

ixtap

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2017, 09:04:51 PM »
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?

As has been said, the community is working in the community. The rest of us need to work on the larger systematic problems imposed on the community. That is, let's take the log out of our own eye, rather than telling them what to do.

former player

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2017, 02:46:29 AM »
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?
Yes.  Except that there is a qualitative difference between violence between individuals (eg black on black shootings) and state violence against individuals (eg police on black shootings).  The latter is much more worrying, because it is institutionalised, and because it is the power of the government used against the people, and because it is clearly oppressive against black people.  It is racist in a way in which black on black violence is not.

And one of the causes of black on black violence is the unfair and unjust system in which black people live.  If you remove the racist injustice from the state then you provide the space and opportunity for black people to move on into better situations and away from the situations in which violence is more likely.

So care about all people equally, but act first on state violence against the individual.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2017, 04:29:55 AM »
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother


kamille

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2017, 05:36:33 AM »
If you don't like someone and they tell you to stop doing a certain behavior because they find it annoying, what better way is there to respond than to continue doing that same behavior even more?

ooeei

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2017, 06:29:47 AM »
I think what the NFL and the players do is their own business, and whether they get fired or not isn't a free speech issue as it's a private organization.

What's concerning is the leader of the government (the thing that your free speech and right to protest is actually protected from) telling other people to punish those who protest since he legally can't. This could turn into a way for the government to circumvent free speech and protest protections through third parties, which is a huge problem.

Pigeon

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2017, 06:39:24 AM »
I'm not a sports fan and I don't follow the NFL.

I don't think standing for the national anthem, flag waving, reciting the pledge, etc., has anything at all to do with patriotism.  Patriotism is living in a way that furthers the ideals of your country.  Flag waving doesn't make democracy stronger or provide freedom or justice to anyone.

I think it's fine that athletes decide to kneel, raise a fist or whatever before or after events if it calls attention to inequality and injustice. 

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.

partgypsy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #108 on: September 26, 2017, 06:52:22 AM »
Shared:
"So with all of this drama with the NFL and the players kneeling for the national anthem letís put this into perspective. Why do people kneel for anything?
 A man kneels before the woman he wants to marry to show respect and be at her mercy for the question he is about to ask.

Christians kneel when praying to show respect and be at the mercy of God.

In many cultures civilians kneel before a their leader to show respect and to be at the mercy of their ruler.

So maybe take a step back and see what these men are doing. They are kneeling respectfully and are at the mercy of our nation to make changes for a cause that needs to be addressed. They have the opportunity to draw attention to a cause that many people are affected by and they are doing so respectfully!!!

If they turned their back or sat on the bench during the anthem now that would be disrespectful. Instead they are kneeling to the mercy of our nation begging for something to change!"
 Ashi Baldwin


My view, when Warren Buffett points out that he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, the reaction is "well why don't you pay more in taxes?" Or pro players demonstrating against black deaths at the hand of police "Why don't you do MORE to help?" First of all, I don't knee jerk assume they are NOT doing other things to help (Warren Buffett intends to give away the vast majority of his wealth in philanthropic efforts, a quick look, many players give off the field and court https://www.looktothestars.org/news/14160-which-nfl-player-gives-the-most-to-charity  not to mention expected to essentially financially support extended family.

While this is admirable, an individual can only do so much and it doesn't solve the institutionalized problems that need to be addressed a different way, such as training, or legislation, and simply awareness of the problem in the first place! I don't see Black leaders ignoring black on black crime. But you have to be aware, a large part of the problem arise from people living in segregated areas with poor education, absent or not strong family structure, poor prospects and gang affiliation or crime seeming like the only way to have someone have your back or improve ones prospects. It's a complicated problem that also has systemic issues at its roots.  The whole "I'll only care about a) when b) happens" is like saying I'll only help Puerto Rico with the hurricane when Mexico helps itself after the earthquake (wtf?)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:29:05 AM by partgypsy »

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #109 on: September 26, 2017, 06:52:38 AM »

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.

Or that he's intentionally stirring the hornets nest to distract from other news, a technique he's used often in the past.
what could he be distracting from?
...collapse of the latest GOP health care bill
...hypocrisy of his staff using private email servers to conduct official business
...criticism about the emergency response to Puerto Rico
...potential loss of 'his' candidate Luther Strange in Alabama
...proposed tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans - of which he and his family would benefit.

Even by this administrations standards this could be an epicly poor week. Now DJT's throwing red meat to his base and soaking up all the minutes of air time on this manufactured 'controversy' of players kneeling during a sporting event.  Every minute the talk shows spend discussing who knelt and who stood is time they aren't spending examining what's going on in the White House and with DJT's political agenda.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2017, 06:54:24 AM »
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother

You must have had your head in the sand.  This was started last year by Colin Kaepernick, quarterback for the 49ers who got demoted to backup and now doesn't have a job in the league.

He was joined by teammate Eric Reid last year - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

They met with Army vets about this and spent thoughtful time on how to make an impact and spread awareness.  The act of kneeling was meant to show honor and respect to the troops while calling out that they weren't seeing this "perfect, ideal America" happening for all people.

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

^Kaepernick then spent 10 months donating $100,000/month to charitable organizations aimed at helping oppressed communities.  He was literally "putting his money where his mouth is."  He was vilified during the season and now out of a job because he's "too toxic" for another team to employ.

Look at that...doing exactly what you claim they should be doing and getting **** for it from society.  These guys can't win.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:16:15 AM by DarkandStormy »
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Pigeon

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2017, 07:00:04 AM »

The fact that Trump is making an issue of this while so much suffering is going on in the country is a reflection of the fact that he lacks patriotism.

Or that he's intentionally stirring the hornets nest to distract from other news, a technique he's used often in the past.
what could he be distracting from?
...collapse of the latest GOP health care bill
...hypocrisy of his staff using private email servers to conduct official business
...criticism about the emergency response to Puerto Rico
...potential loss of 'his' candidate Luther Strange in Alabama
...proposed tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans - of which he and his family would benefit.

Even by this administrations standards this could be an epicly poor week. Now DJT's throwing red meat to his base and soaking up all the minutes of air time on this manufactured 'controversy' of players kneeling during a sporting event.  Every minute the talk shows spend discussing who knelt and who stood is time they aren't spending examining what's going on in the White House and with DJT's political agenda.

Absolutely, but all of those things aren't the actions of someone who is patriotic.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2017, 07:04:06 AM »
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.

This is rich, famous people putting a French flag filter when some jihadi with a truck kills a dozen people. Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV. I don't live in the USA, haven't for a long time, and don't care too much about the ongoing, unrelenting whining and bullshit going on there, but what the hell is the whole thing even about?

How about #actuallyfuckingdosomething

I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that. Black on black homicide is up 20% the last 2 years, an extra 4000 people were killed nationally in that time. How about #kneelingtostopblackpeoplefromkillingeachother

You must have had your head in the sand.  This was started last year by Colin Kaepernick, quarterback for the 49ers who got demoted to backup and now doesn't have a job in the league.

He was joined by teammate Eric Reid last year - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

They met with Army vets about this and spent thoughtful time and how to make an impact and spread awareness.  The act of kneeling was meant to show honor and respect to the troops while calling out that they weren't seeing this "perfect, ideal America" happening for all people.

http://kaepernick7.com/million-dollar-pledge/

^Kaepernick then spent 10 months donating $100,000/month to charitable organizations aimed at helping oppressed communities.  He was literally "putting his money where his mouth is."  He was vilified during the season and now out of a job because he's "too toxic" for another team to employ.

Look at that...doing exactly what you claim they should be doing and getting **** for it from society.  These guys can't win.

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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2017, 07:14:52 AM »


2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

This is a classic racist what-about-ism. Congrats.

I can see how my statement would sound that way, but I'd characterize it more as "sick-of-it-ism" than racism. I believe we as a society (all colors) need to step back and start doing a much better job at addressing the root causes of a whole lotta problems. The social experiments we've tried for the past 50 years aren't solving the root issues. I think our focus is too limited if so many people are only pissed off about a small number of killings, relatively speaking. Is EVERY life important, or are some not, depending on how the life ended?

Doubling down on racism. Amazing.

You say we need to do better as a society...but you'll only care about innocent unarmed black men dying at the hands of police when professional athletes donate monetarily first[/b]. That's a terrible look for you as a human.

Then you cite another classic racist line "isn't every life important[/b]?". Not EVERY person lives in fear of police because of the color of their skin. No EVERY person deals with implicit racism.

In short, you've espouse very twisted viewpoints here by making several racist comments. I will pray for you, because you're part of the problem in the first place.

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

This is simple.  If someone tells you "Black Lives Matter" and your first (and perhaps only) thought is "Don't ALL lives matter?" you're completely missing the point.  You're woefully ignorant and quite possibly a racist.

Quote
black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

Quote
unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

I can't believe I have to spell this out but here it goes.

Has anyone every said or demonstrated that "white lives don't matter?"  Were whites ever not citizens of this country?  Were thousands of whites lynched simply because of the color of their skin?  Have whites been denied the right to vote for 100 years after gaining citizenship?  Have whites had to endure all black juries in racist parts of the country against them because of their skin?

It goes on and on.  Racism lives in this country (and around the world).  Blacks are STILL the target of a majority of this racism.  Cops say they will kill a black man, do it, and then get acquitted.  So the latest form of legal racism has been cops hunting down unarmed black men at an alarming rate...and mostly getting away with it.

So, many people stood up to say black lives matter.  They aren't just a statistic, people to be hunted by police officers.

If your response is, "Well, ALL lives matter," ask yourself, when did any non-Black (Native American, Hispanic, etc. would all be acceptable here imo, but people have been focusing on police killings of African Americans) NOT matter?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:19:39 AM by DarkandStormy »
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FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2017, 07:21:28 AM »

2. I'll start caring about the supposed basis of the kneeling when black people start protesting about black-on-black murders as much as they protest about cop-on-black murders. (I live in Missouri, so I guess I'm pretty much burned out on protests/protesters. I don't expect to win any points on this view.)

In my opinion only the original comment - "I'll care only after they..." could be taken as inconsiderate, not racist.  I don't see any other opinion by Miss Piggy to be racist. Can you please elaborate?

The issue with the original quote is that it's one often used by racists to ignore the problem of police brutality.  It sets off alarm bells for people who have followed this issue for years.  That's not to say that Miss Piggy is a racist, merely that she's quoting something that sounds familiar.

The shooting of Tamir Rice, for example, is indicative of a *huge* problem: even small black children are considered dangerous individuals that need to be approached with deadly force.  To say, in response to this, that you won't care about the "supposed basis" of the real crimes until black-on-black violence is handled has a number of problems:

1. The use of the word "supposed" supposes that the problems aren't real
2. "black-on-black" violence is being addressed, constantly, by the African American community
3. even if it weren't, police brutality should still be addressed

While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.

Imagine if you heard someone say, "Look, Hitler had some good ideas about the economy ...".  Wouldn't you tense up, wondering what's coming on the tail end of that?  So yeah, statements like the quote above are going to look pretty suspicious.  From the follow up posts, we can tell that Miss Piggy is not the sort of person to go off on a racist tirade.  But that first quote is something that I've seen far too many unsavory characters start with and I wouldn't recommend using it as part of a heartfelt discussion.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2017, 07:32:21 AM »
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
No one made peaceful impossible. People are exercising their free speech rights to criticize employees exercising free expression, and the firms permitting this free expression.

That's quite literally how the country is supposed to function. Congress has passed no law abridging any freedom.



Quote
So, many people stood up to say black lives matter.  They aren't just a statistic, people to be hunted by police officers
I'm not on board with BLM because most supporters I see say things like this. Cops are not in the business of hunting man for sport or any other reason.

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

The same applies to people complaining "but OJ Did it!" Jury acquitted. That should be the end of the discussion.



Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2017, 07:34:43 AM »
"I'll care about racism/police brutality IF the black community fixes it's other issues first" is a weird way to look at it.
Yeah...I agree it's a weird way to look at it. Honestly, I'm just so sick of the protests that I really can't think objectively about it anymore. The police issue is indeed something people (including me) need to care a lot about, but I don't understand why the protesters have chosen the particular cases they've chosen to focus on. Again, maybe I'm just too focused on the Missouri-based cases & protesting and I'm not paying enough attention to other places. Did this level of protesting occur after Philando Castille was killed? What about Tamir Rice? (I hope I spelled his name right.) If I remember correctly, those were pretty clear-cut cases of innocent black guys (hell, one was a kid!) getting killed by over-anxious cops...am I remembering correctly? The Missouri cases don't seem so clear-cut to me. In fact, this latest case, the guy was a known drug dealer and the shooting took place in...what? 2011? 2012? A while ago. And we're just now getting mad as hell about it?

No, I wasn't there to observe any of these killings, so there's a ton I don't know. I think there's a ton the protesters don't know as well. I also don't understand what the goal of the protesting is at this point. The protesters have very successfully raised awareness. Now, take that awareness and start to do something productive with it. Start to make a difference somehow. Stop breaking windows of innocent business owners (who, in nearly all cases, if not all cases, employ minorities). Stop throwing trash cans at escalators full of people in a mall. What's the point of that destructive behavior?

I apologize...I've led us astray of the original point of the conversation, which is the NFL kneeling.
It's not necessarily the protesters who are choosing , it's the media and it's viewers.

When someone is shot erroneously and there is strong evidence supporting that fact, everyone agrees. The media presents it as "Wow that was terrible, everyone should know about this." They talk about it for a few days to weeks but most people aren't all that interested because it's a clear cut case.

When someone is shot and it seems like there is a good chance race played into the incident but there is also evidence that the person shot was guilty of something, now there are questions and people want answers. So much so that the media is willing to speculate, which is the next best thing to answers (emotionally, in reality speculation can be worse than nothing). People make up their own answers based on their biases because it feels good. People make up stories of cops planting evidence because that makes it a thriller. Others make up stories of the victim attacking the police because the idea that police can make mistakes scares them. But the reality is that very few people or sometimes no one knows what really happened.

Just as an example, weeks after the Trayvon Martin incident I saw two newscasters tussling on the floor trying to recreate what happened that night. These people do not have the expertise to be engaged in this sort of thing, yet their little skit almost certainly influenced people's opinion of what happened. It's like uncle Johnny know it all who has a way to explain everything is spouting his bullshit on television and people watch cause, you know, Uncle Johnny is kinda entertaining.

Sorry, that may have turned into a rant.

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2017, 07:36:33 AM »

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2017, 07:39:33 AM »
Why aren't these multi-millionaires actually doing something, anything, to help whoever it is they think should be helped or accomplish whatever goal they think needs it.
Bringing awareness and getting the discussion rolling IS doing something. Not to mention actual involvement in the community. 

Quote
Its shameless attention whoring turned up to 11 because they are on national TV.
Hypocrit much? Kneeling is doing something. And when they do it folks like you scold them for it. Ever heard of Rosa Parks? She wasn't raising awareness for bus transportation issues.

Quote
I thought it was about police brutality or something like that but it appears no one cares about that.
That literally makes no sense. It is about police brutality among other racial issues. So you scold them for claiming they are doing nothing and then scold them for doing something and claim what they are doing it for they don't actually care about.

Reminds me of an old saying "you can't make sense of nonsense."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:42:06 AM by MasterStache »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2017, 07:43:04 AM »

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.

That seems like a bigger issue of racism, from my POV. Juries are more likely to convict AAs and judges pass down harsher sentences. Juries should be hesitant to convict. Better to have guilty people in the populace than innocent people in jail.

Cwadda

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2017, 07:48:46 AM »
Quote
While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.
I hope the thread doesn't get locked. I'm really enjoying this one, great points of view all around.

Cpa Cat

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2017, 07:51:41 AM »
Trying to detract attention away from the fact that our government kills black people in disproportionate numbers by pointing out that black people die in other ways is pretty racist.

I was looking at the bigger picture, and I feel the pieces are intertwined. Many, many people are dying unnecessarily. Shouldn't we care about all of them equally?


We don't read the Diary of Anne Frank in school and then say, "Yeah but, what about all the other people who died in the Holocaust?"  "A lot of people had it worse than her, why aren't we reading about them?"

"Shouldn't we care about ALL the problems facing Nazi Germany at that time? Why does this one person matter so much?"

Certain deaths become a symbol for the whole. We don't need to know and state the name of every single person who dies unnecessarily as a footnote to caring about one death. That one death already encapsulates a whole problem.

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2017, 07:59:00 AM »
Quote
While I've never banned anyone for saying something like the quote above, it always perks my ears up because the conversation following often goes the way of locking threads and banning a whole bunch of really obvious racists who come in on the tail end of the conversation.
I hope the thread doesn't get locked. I'm really enjoying this one, great points of view all around.
I'm hoping to avoid that myself, honestly.

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2017, 07:59:27 AM »

As an aside, criticizing a jury for failing to return a guilty verdict horrifies me. Juries should never be criticized for failing to return a guilty verdict. It's supposed to be extremely difficult to convict someone and juries are specifically there as a check on government oversight. If anything, juries are TOO eager to convict.

You need to read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson - http://bryanstevenson.com/the-book/

Decades upon decades of black defendants facing all white juries across the racist South, leading to wrongful convictions.  That's what I was talking about.

That seems like a bigger issue of racism, from my POV. Juries are more likely to convict AAs and judges pass down harsher sentences. Juries should be hesitant to convict. Better to have guilty people in the populace than innocent people in jail.

The book was a startling read for me, not being from the south or living there.  Bryan heads up the Equal Justice Initiative - trying to overturn many of these wrongful convictions (mind you, these people have been locked up 10, 15, 20+ years for crimes they didn't commit).
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2017, 08:19:32 AM »
Protest comes with the territory in a free society.  I get really uncomfortable any time anyone talks about limiting free speech or curbing the right to protest.  That includes protest by people I disagree with too.  We all have the right to express our opinions, nonviolently of course.

Now, if the question is "what are the protesters trying to accomplish" and/or "are their methods effective," that's a different discussion.  In other words, do your protests raise awareness, gain support for your cause, change hearts and minds, etc.?  Or do your protests just reinforce the opposite point of view?  That's a tougher assessment. 


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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2017, 08:26:34 AM »
I'll echo Dale Earnhardt Jr. in reminding everyone of John F. Kennedy----
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
No one made peaceful impossible. People are exercising their free speech rights to criticize employees exercising free expression, and the firms permitting this free expression.

That's quite literally how the country is supposed to function. Congress has passed no law abridging any freedom.
First, it's a quote and won't necessarily apply to this exact situation. Second, the idea is that if the NFL followed Trump's suggestion they would be making peaceful revolution impossible, at least through this one outlet.

I think that while the president technically has a similar right to free speech as everyone else, his words carry much more weight especially if he is being suggestive or threatening towards someone he doesn't like. He is in a position where he can cause citizens to act simply by tweeting a suggestion. He can put quotes on it or say it was sarcastic all he wants but that don't mean shit when the death threats have already started rolling in. If anyone takes violent action against NFL players he will bear part of the responsibility.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2017, 08:32:29 AM »
The thread is starting to veer into other discussion, rightfully intertwined with the emphasis of the protest but not the original reason for me to start it, so can we go back to the original premise?

What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest?

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued?

What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting?

Would you boo the players?

What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem?


If we can stay on track that will be great but at the end of the day, the river will flow whichever way it wants...
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DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2017, 08:56:32 AM »
What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest? That would be within their rights as a private employer.  I'm sure people would scream "BUT FREEDOM OF SPEECH" but the players are being paid a salary by the NFL teams.  This wouldn't be govt. infringing on their 1st A. rights.

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued? Companies are free to sponsor or not any causes which they choose.  If THIS is where they draw the line (and not the complete mishandling of domestic violence cases) I will think less of those sponsors, not that they care.
  I probably don't buy most of their products anyway.


What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting? A bit hypocritical to boo anthem decorum during the anthem since...that's against anthem decorum.

Would you boo the players? No.  Haven't been to an NFL game in 20+
 years so this dilemma won't come across my plate any time soon.


What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem? Forcing patriotism on everyone isn't true patriotism.
  Petty is missing the point of the protests, but then again, NASCAR barely cares about Confederate flags being flown at their events.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2017, 09:07:40 AM »
The thread is starting to veer into other discussion, rightfully intertwined with the emphasis of the protest but not the original reason for me to start it, so can we go back to the original premise?

What would your opinion be if the NFL tried to put a stop on protest?
I feel very uneasy anytime an employer exerts pressure on their employees to stop individual expression. As I said upthread, I don't believe it is right for an employer to force employees to partake in a ritual unrelated to their actual job and prevent them from either abstaining or respectfully protesting.
Sum: In my view it would be wrong for the NFL to 'put a stop' to peaceful protests like this one.  Nix the national anthem, don't cover it on live TV (they also refrain from showing fights and idiots running on the field), whatever. But if players have to be present for the anthem they should be allowed act according to their own values.

What would you opinion be of sponsors pulling back from the NFL if the protest continued?
Sponsors are inherently anti-controversy. If I'm selling a widget I want to sell them to as many people as possible, regardless of their political ideology. Ergo, I would not fault companies if they decided to pull back, unless they explicitly made it about the protests (e.g. "we will not support a league that allows individuals to respectfully dissent (see above)"

What are you thoughts on the thousands of people at the stadiums booing the players for protesting?
Freedom and democracy means allowing displays of dissent. Fans are free to 'boo' if they like. 

Quote
Would you boo the players?
No. As I've said I think what they are doing is both respectful and part of living in a democracy. If they become violent or disruptive (for example, if a player grabbed the enormous flag and tried to run away with it) then I would express my displeasure because they would be preventing the playing of the national anthem.
Quote
What about Richard Petty's comment that he will fire anyone who protests during the anthem?
That's a blowhard, authoritarian response to a peaceful protest. True leaders (both elected and in business) should be able to tolerate and even embrace contrasting viewpoints.
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hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2017, 10:17:19 AM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation? But somehow not disavowing some group he has nothing to do with is wrong??? Like we need a moral leader, but commenting our national past time way over the line. People are crying a screaming and it is the news headline for three weeks that he did not do it good enough disavowing kinda wrong. The level of hypocrisy is astounding...

I want to see Hillary Clinton disavow the DNC. I want to see her apologize to Bernie Sanders and his supporters. I wish I had choice other than libertarian Rand Johnson, or whoever. If you voted democrat, you lost; get over it*. Stop blaming Russia, the DNC stole the election!!!!!



*Technically I lost too, but realistically, it has gone about as good as can be expected.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2017, 10:20:07 AM »
Yes, let's respect our national anthem about American freedom by having employers and government forcing people to stand for it. If you are for the free speech rights of the NFL players, I don't see why there would be an issue with fans or sponsors protesting either.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2017, 10:41:27 AM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2017, 10:42:20 AM »
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).

Now we have the head of the DoJ making statements about employees in a private company.  This is getting interesting.  If its up to the employer to decide whether to allow such displays, what business does the DoJ have in issuing such statements?  If it is a matter of free speech, the AG Sessions has clearly come out as 'against'. The only rational conclusion I can reach is that he believes individuals should not have the freedom to kneel during the anthem regardless of whether it is permissible by their employer.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2017, 10:53:05 AM »
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.

bacchi

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2017, 11:00:46 AM »
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.

Or they don't want any peaceful protesting at all because, ya know, everything looks damn good from my (privileged) vantage.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2017, 11:02:43 AM »
Well, our Attorney General Jeff Sessions has opined that "it was a mistake to protest in that fashion".
I wonder if this is personal opinion or if he was directed to say that by the WH (or both).


Usually when people complain about peaceful protests not being done to their tastes, they either don't offer what the correct way to protest is and/or they just want the protesting done out of their sights.
Sure.  but when the person in question is the US Attorney General, head of the US Department of Justice, it carries a bit more weight.  Because of his title his opinions will always be considered through the lens of what is legally permissible.
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Hedge_87

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2017, 11:07:08 AM »
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.
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runbikerun

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2017, 11:14:21 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2017, 11:15:32 AM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2017, 11:16:37 AM »
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.

I hope he wasn't pressured into the apology, but I can see where he might have finally realized that standing up for people and principles is way more important than symbols and songs.

bacchi

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2017, 11:18:45 AM »
Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

It's more nuanced than that. He apologized for not publicly expressing support for his teammates and appearing to show them up. He didn't apologize for standing during the anthem per se. He also stated that he supports his teammates who chose to protest during the anthem.


hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2017, 11:19:10 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2017, 11:20:50 AM »
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.


Actually he was planning on not showing up for the anthem, as the whole team had decided the day before. He decided he wanted to step out before the anthem to honor the flag and was "blocked" from making it back to the locker room before the anthem started.  At that point he decided to stay out and stand.  He apologized to his teammates for appearing as if he was the only one outside, meaning against them.  It was a misunderstanding between him and his teammates.

From the horses mouth;
https://youtu.be/EJubf3o_YCo
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craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2017, 11:27:20 AM »
So it is incorrect for a president to comment on the national anthem when he is the president of the, you know, nation?
That's entirely misstating the issue.  The issue is that the president put the considerable weight of his office behind an attempt to get people fired for their political expression.  What's the point of fighting for "freedom" to live in a country like that?

The rest is straying from the intent of this thread.  Please stay on topic.

Toque.

And this thread, like many others, are not much more than trolling from people upset at who the current president is. If you cannot hear what I am saying it may be because of the reverberating echo.

My above post is relevant.

editjust a disclaimer, I do not even say the Pledge. I stand and say and Our Father under my breath.


The president clearly called an NFL protester(I would imagine he meant Kaepernick, who's not even on a team) a "Son of a bitch" and to get him "Out of there" and "Fired".

So the question to you is, if Obama had called a white, let's say hockey player, a son of a bitch and wanted him fired for protesting in the same manner, about a known issue in America, would you be saying the same thing?

Needless to say this thread seems to be headed in the wrong direction...

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runbikerun

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Isn't the national anthem of the United States named after the flag?

DarkandStormy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2017, 11:33:54 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2017, 11:36:59 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.

And it continues.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912664574461120512
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.

- Eres Un Esclavo Financiero
https://youtu.be/GO1Fsp4cUTQ

Hedge_87

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2017, 11:43:09 AM »
I don't necessarily like the way they are protesting but if that's how they want to do it then so be it. I don't know its a complicated problem but a problem we need to solve. The only way we are going to get there is to work together and stupid comments from the president aren't helping. Did you hear about Alejandro Villanuev? he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room during the anthem he came out and stood at attention. Dudes a vet idk if it was his way of showing support for fellow service members or what. This morning he apologized for that. I just don't get it. Dude is a vet and wanted to stand for the anthem so be it.

My thoughts
1 nobody should be forced to stand for the anthem or risk losing their job
2 Like 99% of things we would be better off without trump saying anything. Seriously dude just shut up
3 nobody should feel they have to apologize for standing for the anthem.


Actually he was planning on not showing up for the anthem, as the whole team had decided the day before. He decided he wanted to step out before the anthem to honor the flag and was "blocked" from making it back to the locker room before the anthem started.  At that point he decided to stay out and stand.  He apologized to his teammates for appearing as if he was the only one outside, meaning against them.  It was a misunderstanding between him and his teammates.

From the horses mouth;
https://youtu.be/EJubf3o_YCo
Ok I stand corrected I was just going off half the conversation I heard on the radio and the rest was recapped from some of the more 'merican people I work with.
There are two types of people in this world. Those who think they can and those who think they can't. They are both right. - Henry ford

hoping2retire35

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2017, 11:43:13 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

I'm European, so the American cultural attachment to the flag has always looked pretty weird from the outside, but this is well beyond weird and into authoritarian.

I may be wrong but I thought this centered about the National Anthem as opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

Isn't the national anthem of the United States named after the flag?

Well yes, but it is just a song, not a pledge. You know a pledge to....a flag. The more you think about it the weirder it is.

The anthem is just a representation of the refusal to give up even though the fort was bombarded throughout the night. The author of the song was telling the captives below in the boat that the american flag was still flying, i.e.; they had not given up.

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2017, 11:44:37 AM »
There's a whole raft of complicated debate going on in this thread, but it's important to remember a pretty simple fact: a head of state publicly berating people for insufficient worship of the national flag is GODDAMN TERRIFYING. It violates all kinds of extremely basic and foundational norms, in a thoroughly sinister and unpleasant way.

Ding ding ding.  Forced patriotism is just totalitarianism.

And it continues.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912664574461120512
For those that prefer to stay away from the stench in twitter feeds, it read:
Quote from: Trump Tweet
The NFL has all sorts of rules and regulations. The only way out for them is to set a rule that you can't kneel during our National Anthem!
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"