Author Topic: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.  (Read 10411 times)

craiglepaige

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#takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« on: September 24, 2017, 07:12:47 PM »
I'll be the first to say that I don't care one flying squirrel about football. If the NFL was to completely disappear tomorrow it wouldn't even register in my everyday life. But throughout the day I had friends comment via text messages/social media as the football games were getting started and the "take a knee" protests were happening, being magnified by Trump's comments/tweets from Friday.

Well some of them are upset at the players for turning a pastime into a political agenda and disrespecting the flag/vets. Others understand where the players are coming from. And finally others are upset at Trump for his "son of a bitch" comment which only added fuel to the fire and it's escalating the situation.

After thinking about it throughout the day and reading all the online comments, I'm not sure if the "take a knee" protest is the correct one, meaning if it will ever benefit the people it's supposed to. I understand bringing attention to a problem, in this case police brutality(as it first began) but it seems now it's a personal attack on Trump for what he said. This situation is definitely a fiery one and can really divide a population.

What do fellow members think of this ordeal?


PS - Can we keep this conversation civil?

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Sibley

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 07:30:22 PM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 07:54:52 PM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.


In my opinion, the kneeling during the anthem actually pays respect to the vets who fought for their(our) freedom.  I would be upset if they were turning their backs to the flag or the fans, but that's not how it started.

Now it's a bit more complicated because you have the whole team not walking out onto the field till after the anthem is finished. In my opinion, that's a bit more of a slap on the face to the fans. Hard to explain how/why I see it this way. Will need to sleep on it.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 05:13:29 AM »
I'll preface this this with I am a vet myself. And have talked to many fellow vets about this. Anecdotal, but the only folks who appear to be upset are non-vets. Seems rather ironic to me.

Anyways I am all for folks exercising their free speech rights. Especially in a peaceful non-violent manner bringing attention to obvious injustices, inequality and racism that still exist in this country. Trump's response was horrendous, calling black athletes SOB's. He has now called out black athletes more than white supremacist and Putin himself. For all the bad things the NFL has done over the years, they finally got something right. And I applaud all of them for what they did.

Frankies Girl

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 05:42:50 AM »
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?

Taking a knee isn't disrespecting anyone or anything. It is a sign of peaceful protest.

I don't see how veterans/military personnel should feel insulted or disrespected by this action. They serve to protect the nation and allow us our freedoms to have things like peaceful protests. This is one of the very things military are supposed to be there for. There is nothing more patriotic and American than peaceful protest for social injustice. Those that decry it are usually the ones that support the injustice - they are part of the problem.

The athletes are not cursing anyone out, spitting on or desecrating anything or otherwise causing any harm or attacking anyone. They are objecting by non-participation, period. In contrast, they have been vilified, called horrible names, been threatened both verbally, bodily, and even with the threat of losing their livelihood for taking a stand/drawing attention to a cause they hold dear. They are saying (in my opinion anyway) "This is not the America that I want for myself, my family, or my community. We can be better than this. We have to be better than this."

Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

I've seen this new breed of "patriots" spouting off death threats on the local news sites. Hopes that the athletes' families are killed, raped, tortured. Cursing, racial slurs, the idea that every one that was harrassed, arrested, beaten, died, whatever deserved it... this, THIS is the thing I find completely disrespectful and horrifying and unpatriotic. All of this for kneeling, silently before a game, to draw attention to the rise of violence perpetrated by government agencies against a minority group.

Who is the most disrespectful and unpatriotic? Those that are peacefully protesting a wrong, or those that angrily vilify and threaten more violence against those expressing their constitutional right to protest?


“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
― George Santayana 



Just read this article and very much agree with his writing: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic.html
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:47:47 AM by Frankies Girl »
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Dicey

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 06:05:35 AM »
Anyone remember this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

It caused more of an uproar, and what did it change?
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 06:29:54 AM »
It seems like the President’s tweets to get NFL players to stop kneeling for the anthem is as effective as the tweets to get North Korea to stop firing missiles. Also, what is the “correct” way to protest as long as it is peaceful?

partgypsy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 06:33:12 AM »
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?

Taking a knee isn't disrespecting anyone or anything. It is a sign of peaceful protest.

I don't see how veterans/military personnel should feel insulted or disrespected by this action. They serve to protect the nation and allow us our freedoms to have things like peaceful protests. This is one of the very things military are supposed to be there for. There is nothing more patriotic and American than peaceful protest for social injustice. Those that decry it are usually the ones that support the injustice - they are part of the problem.

The athletes are not cursing anyone out, spitting on or desecrating anything or otherwise causing any harm or attacking anyone. They are objecting by non-participation, period. In contrast, they have been vilified, called horrible names, been threatened both verbally, bodily, and even with the threat of losing their livelihood for taking a stand/drawing attention to a cause they hold dear. They are saying (in my opinion anyway) "This is not the America that I want for myself, my family, or my community. We can be better than this. We have to be better than this."

Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

I've seen this new breed of "patriots" spouting off death threats on the local news sites. Hopes that the athletes' families are killed, raped, tortured. Cursing, racial slurs, the idea that every one that was harrassed, arrested, beaten, died, whatever deserved it... this, THIS is the thing I find completely disrespectful and horrifying and unpatriotic. All of this for kneeling, silently before a game, to draw attention to the rise of violence perpetrated by government agencies against a minority group.

Who is the most disrespectful and unpatriotic? Those that are peacefully protesting a wrong, or those that angrily vilify and threaten more violence against those expressing their constitutional right to protest?


“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
― George Santayana 



Just read this article and very much agree with his writing: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic.html

Amen. I agree with what you wrote. It is a peaceful, respectful way of protesting systemic violence in this country. If even admired, successful African American athletes cannot peacefully comment on this kind of thing without threats, maybe we should take a deeper look at what is wrong with our country.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 06:39:40 AM »
How are you reaching the assumption that kneeling during the flag ceremony is disrespecting the flag and veterans/military?


If this was asked for me, I didn't come to that conclusion. People within my group message and social media did.  I don't see eye to eye with them and voiced my opinion on the matter, saying the same I did here. 
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nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 06:43:39 AM »
a few of my thoughts:

when Roger Goodell is the on the side of protestors and disconformity you really need to question the position of the 'other' side.

Its in the fundamental nature of our country to protect free speech and allow peaceful protests.  As Sibley said, kneeling in most other contexts is a sign of reverence and submission. Here it is a sign of protest because the norm is to stand at attention, and so these acts were a sign of peaceful ~ and respectful ~ protest.

What really irritates me is DJT's challenges that new focus on protecting players is somehow a bad thing.  This is an issue that the players themselves have been fighting the league for.  Wanting to go back to the 'good ol' days' when players bashed themselves into brain damage and lifelong disabilities is the height of hubris. Fight you peons, you exist for my entertainment!   The optics are even worse when you consider that this is an old, white, priviliged billionaire telling young black men that their concerns over their long term health is ruining his entertainment.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 06:45:57 AM »
Patriotism has sadly become twisted in the hands of the fanatic. Used to be that love of country didn't mean you turned a blind eye to it's failings and stop trying to work for the good of all its citizens. But in this day and age, patriotism has come to mean a slavering, bully-like mentality with a stark refusal to recognize when things are terribly, terribly wrong for a large portion of its populace.

"Love it or leave it" was pretty popular during the Vietnam War.  So patriotism being whatever a particular vocal group defines it as is nothing new.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2017, 07:05:36 AM »
patriotism ≠ nationalism.

Many conflate the two.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2017, 07:19:26 AM »
This weekend just furthers my belief that things are going to get a whole hell of a lot worse before they get better.

Elected officials shouldn't be interfering or influencing the employment decisions of private actors. That's probably my top value here. It's up to the NFL to decide who they want to employ and what values they want to communicate. I and apparently a lot of Americans think it's a disrespectful form of protest, and the NFL should prohibit it (and they already do per league rules to my understanding). If they don't want to, whatever. They are professional athletes doing something I think is stupid, not criminals.

You absolutely should not be sending death threats to anyone, under any circumstance, ever. And definitely not to fellow American citizens. WTF is wrong with you?

But, yeah, Colin Kaepernick decided to be cute and wear a Fidel Castro shirt to a press conference. Might as well show up to Game Day in a "I <3 Kim Jong Un" shirt.  I'm not going to lose any sleep over him not getting signed. He's got enough money to live a modest life forever.

FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2017, 07:30:20 AM »
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.

Toque.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 07:31:56 AM by FrugalToque »

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2017, 07:31:55 AM »
It's both great and frustrating that this is newsworthy. The anthem protests are getting a lot of attention. The injustices are passively mentioned. Peaceful protests, civil disobedience, and boycotting are acceptable non-violent means to try and make a statement or take a stance. I would like to know what discussion needs to take place, or what action needs to happen, for the people on opposite sides of this to come together. There are plenty of us in the middle who either don't care or are really unaffected by this circus yet still have an opinion of some sort.

Chesleygirl

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2017, 07:43:52 AM »
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2017, 07:52:15 AM »
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.

Toque.

I agree and it is also very unpatriotic to tell people how to protest (45 basically tweeted 'arm-locking good, kneeling bad.).  I fully support their decision to kneel, but it makes me both sad and angry that instead of taking the steps to fix the reasons about why they are kneeling people would rather complain about them kneeling.  Forced Patriotism is not what this Country stands for.

An interesting note: teams were never actually on the field as a whole during the Anthem until 2009, around the time when the DoD decided to pay the NFL big bucks for Patriotic displays.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2017, 07:57:04 AM »
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.
I agree.  I'd extend this to all modern professional sports. In reality they are millionaires who play for a particular team because either i) they were drafted/signed per league rules of ii) they were offered the most money to play there. Without a doubt they are all physically talented but certainly (IMO) not the epitome of our society. I'm happy when they give some of their money to charity or spend time helping a cause, but IMO that is a lesser act than the founders and employees of NFPs that spend their entire working lives supporting a social cause.
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MasterStache

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2017, 07:57:10 AM »
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.

Why would you get flamed? Just curious. I lost interest in the NFL when player safety took a backseat to profits, criminals were slapped on the wrist (again because of profits) and PED use ignored. Admittedly I idolized an NFL player growing up. But it wasn't because he was great at football (which he was), but because his work ethic, drive and focus was unlike anything I had ever seen. My kids could care less about professional sports. 

nereo

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2017, 08:10:16 AM »
When the government, i.e. the President, tells private people to fire their employees because the president disapproves of their speech, I think you have a problem.

That's getting to the borderline of "blacklisting", where the government is actually curtailing your freedom of speech.  You want to speak out on police brutality and racism?  Well, guess what?  The president of the entire country is going to use his considerable power and influence to get you kicked out of your job.

That should be frightening to people on all parts of the political spectrum.
You've hit the nail on the head Toque. I'm wondering if such calls for team owners to fire players isn't already legal, although I'm certain DJT's camp will argue that he was just 'expressing an opinion' about what he'd do and wasn't actually ordering any such thing, just as his comments at rallies weren't actually inciting violence against protestors.

Elected officials shouldn't be interfering or influencing the employment decisions of private actors. That's probably my top value here. It's up to the NFL to decide who they want to employ and what values they want to communicate. I and apparently a lot of Americans think it's a disrespectful form of protest, and the NFL should prohibit it (and they already do per league rules to my understanding). If they don't want to, whatever. They are professional athletes doing something I think is stupid, not criminals.

Yet another way that DJT has taken the GOP's guiding principles* off the rails. A cornerstone of GOP orthodoxy has been free-market enterprise and minimal government interference. Now the WH challenges everyone from Starbucks to the NFL and tries to inflict damages (boycotts, negative publicity).  State's rights and limited government was also a hook to hang their hat on, but now that fallacy has been laid bare as DJT directs the DOJ to go after 'sanctuary cities' and state decisions on gay marriage and marijuana.  The party of fiscal responsibility is (again) drafting the largest tax cuts in history with no plan or hope to do anything but add to the deficit, while upping military outlays during a time of peace.

*yes, to some extent all GOP presidents have bent their parties so-called ideologies at time, but this wholesale abandonment seems entirely in another ballpark.
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Midwest

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2017, 08:32:51 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2017, 08:45:49 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.
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Milizard

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2017, 08:50:08 AM »
I believe that this country should strive for the ideal at the end of the Pledge of Allegiance:  "liberty and justice for all".  I was thinking of avoiding social media over this issue, but I think I will stick to just repeating that phrase.  Perhaps it will turn on a light bulb or 2.
Liberty - freedom to protest
Justice - when dealing with law enforcement
For all - regardless of employment, skin color, etc.

craiglepaige

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2017, 08:51:52 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.


I was under the impression that business owners are not allowed to dictate how their employees act during non-business time.  Meaning how can the time during which the national anthem is performed be called work time? I thought the driver was working during his time driving the car.

I can see a "clocked" employee, meaning one who has scheduled work hours, be told how to act during those hours. We all have a list of conduct in our work places. But at the same time, my work doesn't play the national anthem before clock in time for me to stand/salute/respect.

The moment you start mixing politics with work, the moment you create a gray area in my opinion. For Petty to say he will fire anyone for protesting during the national anthem seems an over reach on the matter.  Any law members who can clarify? I know work laws are different state to state but how is this legal?
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Kris

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 08:53:32 AM »
I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't care about football that much. I also don't look to NFL players as examples for anyone else to follow. In many cases, their personal lives are not admirable at all. Overall, they are just people who play a sport. I teach my children never to use the word "hero" to describe someone who simply plays a competitive sport.

I agree about football -- all sports, for that matter. But it's not really about football per se. It's about the institutionalized, forced patriotism of placing the national anthem at the beginning of all sporting events -- and hence, about an individual's right as an American citizen to respectfully and peacefully protest as an alternative expression of one's patriotism.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 08:54:03 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 08:56:24 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Richard Petty:
 “Anybody that don’t stand up for the anthem ought to be out of the country. Period. What got ’em where they’re at? The United States.”

Even if it was just him saying he would fire anyone who knelt, just because he has the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Legal and moral do not always overlap. Also it wouldn't necessarily be firing someone over their actions, it would be firing someone over their opinions. maybe a bit of a gray area, I honestly don't know. Can I be fired for talking politics at work that my boss doesn't like?

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 08:57:53 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.
In your eyes, how does that compare with individuals kneeling during the anthem, or indivudals linking arms, or people raising their fists?

How does non-participation relate to active dissonance?
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 09:04:54 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...
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caffeine

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 09:12:21 AM »
They should change the pledge to start with:

Please stand, lock arms, sit, kneel or do whatever you want for the Pledge of Allegiance

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 09:14:03 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I don't see anything in the law you quoted regarding political displays for employees. 

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2017, 09:14:57 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 09:17:50 AM »
Then you have idiots like this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/richard-petty-among-nascar-owners-saying-anthem-protests-will-get-employees-fired/?utm_term=.e15429830c31

I can't read the article (pay wall), but why shouldn't a business owner have a say in what his employees do and don't do during business hours?  If there's more to it than that please enlighten (can't see it due to the pay wall).

I'm not defending Trump's calls for firing, but what employers have a right to allow or disallow this type of behavior on company time.  The NFL has chosen to allow and Richard Petty (team owner) wants to disallow.  As private employers both have the right.
Richard Petty:
 “Anybody that don’t stand up for the anthem ought to be out of the country. Period. What got ’em where they’re at? The United States.”

Even if it was just him saying he would fire anyone who knelt, just because he has the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Legal and moral do not always overlap. Also it wouldn't necessarily be firing someone over their actions, it would be firing someone over their opinions. maybe a bit of a gray area, I honestly don't know. Can I be fired for talking politics at work that my boss doesn't like?

The call to leave the country is over the top.  With regard to his employees, he wouldn't be firing them for inaction.  Kneeling during the anthem is an act of political protest. 

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 09:21:44 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 09:21:52 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.
In your eyes, how does that compare with individuals kneeling during the anthem, or indivudals linking arms, or people raising their fists?

How does non-participation relate to active dissonance?

I'm just making a correction, I don't think it's any different.  But on the other hand, to me, it makes me feel bad for the players on the team who may want to stand and be present for the national anthem, but the "team decision" is not to.  Of course, there are guys like the Steeler's lineman who is a veteran who's whole team decided to stay in the locker room and he chose to come out and stand for the anthem alone...

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 09:27:10 AM »
To me, these guys have a right to kneel if they want to.  And I have a right to be disgusted with them and turn it off.  That's what I want to do, but full disclosure, I watched anyway. 

But I am disgusted with them.  And, I'm disgusted with Trump.  Yes, he did say what I felt.  But I think the President needs to stay above that fray. 

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2017, 09:27:38 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...
So my next question would be, so what if the action is disrespectful on a stand alone basis? Is it really disrespectful in terms of protest?

To give you a better idea of what I mean, when a person is hysterical and you slap them to get their attention are you hurting them? yes. Is the goal to hurt them? no.

To put that analogy in terms of protest, when protesters block the street is the goal to congest traffic? When someone goes on hunger strike is the goal to starve to death? No, but these are the only actions that the individual feels they can take which will get the attention of people that can make a change. Even if the protest is misguided and not sending the intended message I wouldn't condemn the protester. That is as long as it is peaceful protest.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 09:29:34 AM by Dabnasty »

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 09:30:48 AM »
Trump is just seizing another opportunity to fan the racist, white nationalist flames of his campaign.  It has cause an uproar of what was a nothing-burger just last week.  Meanwhile, Mueller continues on and Trump expanded his travel ban in between fighting with North Korea like a petulant child.

I don't care either way.  All meaningful protests by high-profile athletes are going to cause discomfort somewhere - that's the point.  This is as peaceful as they come, yet here's #45 spewing off more hatred for them than he did for the white supremacists who had "many good people."  That shows you who he is.  He's spent more time and energy on black athletes kneeling than he did with violent neo-Nazis, one of whom killed a woman and injured dozens others.  Deplorable.
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FrugalToque

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 09:37:58 AM »
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/

Toque.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 09:44:29 AM »
I understand why people are offended/hurt at players not standing during the national anthem, and I don't blame them. I also think that these kinds of protests are bringing to light issues that desperately need to be discussed. It isn't a matter of one side or the other. I think we really need both of these voices right now. I was one of those people raised to believe racism was mostly "over" and through Black Lives Matter and other movements like this I've since learned a lot. (And as far as Trump's comments--I see no value in engaging with that kind of language and mentality. We have to keep the dialogue at a higher level if we are going to move forward.)

I liked what President Obama had to say about this a year ago:

I believe that us honoring our flag and our anthem is part of what binds us together as a nation.  And I think that for me, for my family, for those who work in the White House, we recognize what it means to us, but also what it means to the men and women who are fighting on our behalf.  But I’m also always trying to remind folks that part of what makes this country special is that we respect people’s rights to have a different opinion and to make different decisions about how they want to express their concerns.  And the test of our fidelity to our constitution, the freedom of speech, to our bill of rights, is not when it’s easy, but when it’s hard.

We fight sometimes so that people can do things that we disagree with.  But that’s what freedom means in this country.  And so my hope would be that as this debate surfaces, we’re always reminding ourselves that in a democracy like ours, there are going to be a lot of folks who do stuff that we just don’t agree with.  But as long as they’re doing it within the law, then we can voice our opinion objecting to it, but it’s also their right. 

And I think that it’s also important for us to recognize that sometimes out of these controversies, we start getting into a conversation, and I want everybody to listen to each other.  So I want Mr. Kaepernick and others who are on a knee, I want them to listen to the pain that that may cause somebody who, for example, had a spouse or a child who was killed in combat, and why it hurts them to see somebody not standing.  But I also want people to think about the pain that he may be expressing about somebody who’s lost a loved one that they think was unfairly shot. 

And one of the things that I always say about American democracy is, it can be frustrating, but it’s the best system we’ve got.  The only way that we make it work is to see each other, listen to each other, try to be respectful of each other, not just go into separate corners, and I do hope that anybody who’s trying to express any political view of any sort understands that they do so under the blanket of protection of our men and women in uniform, and that that appreciation of that sacrifice is never lost.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.

Midwest

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 09:54:30 AM »
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/

Toque.

You are correct, he is a moron.  Of course I question the decision to provide subsidies in first place but that's unrelated to this. 

acroy

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2017, 09:59:07 AM »
Much ado about nothing

besides,

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
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Dabnasty

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 10:02:28 AM »
Much ado about nothing

besides,

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
And which part is the "nothing" to which you refer?

Are you saying the protests aren't a big deal and people shouldn't be offended or that Trump did nothing wrong?

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2017, 10:22:03 AM »
Do they though? An employer cannot force an employee to pray to Jesus, and equal employment laws prevent employers from refusing to hire or firing someone based on their race, color, religion, creed, national origin, ancestry, age, veteran status, etc.  Students in public school cannot be forced to recite the pledge of allegiance (see W. VA State Board v. Barnette).

It seems to me that while employers can promote patriotic displays like the singing of the national anthem, they cannot and should not force their employees to act in any particular manner during such displays.  If they want to stand, kneel, hold their fist up or turn their back, the employees have that right and employers cannot legally penalize them for such actions.

I'm not a legal scholar, but I don't see anything in the law you quoted regarding political displays for employees. 

While I personally find it disrespectful, I agree with the premise that public school students should not be coerced into saying the the pledge or standing during the national anthem.  Students are entitled to a public education.  That is a different premise than an employer prohibiting political displays in the workplace and especially in a public forum.

If I were an employer and employee had a problem with National Anthem, I would ask them to stay out of sight (ie the locker room) during the anthem.  The NFL, the employer, has the right to allow the protest during the game.  I support their right to make a decision even if I'm uncertain it's the correct decision.
Isn't the playing of the national anthem, and the hoopla surrounding it, in itself a display of nationalism? I'm struggling with how it can be ok to require employees to partake such a ritual.  If you are preventing overtly political displays like kneeling or raising your fist during the anthem, then you are de facto forcing them to participate.  Apparently the Steelers chose to 'stay out of sight" and that has been interpreted as having its own message.

Something is either a 'right' or it is not.  By definition, a right cannot be granted to you at the whim of your employer.  If your employer can deny or rescind your ability to make such statements, then you never had that 'right' to begin with.
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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2017, 10:22:52 AM »
This, you see, is what you should be worried about.

The government mandating patriotism, threatening individuals with its considerable power of the purse, if they aren't sufficiently obedient to the government.

That's the danger to freedom of speech, right there.

GOP lawmaker calls for stripping $400 million from New Orleans Saints to punish players for protests
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/gop-lawmaker-calls-for-stripping-400-million-from-new-orleans-saints-to-punish-players-for-protests/

Toque.

I don't see this as a danger of freedom of speech. Tax payers aren't obligated to subsidize a platform. Freedom of speech isn't the freedom from consequences. In this case, the consequence will be a single law maker making a fuss.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2017, 10:34:31 AM »
Trump can't resist the temptation to insert himself and his opinions into issues he should clearly stay away from.

I watch football because of the athletic ability of the players.  I don't care what issues the players support, what their personal lives are like, nor whether they stand, sit, or kneel during the anthem.  I don't care who puts their hand over their heart, sings along, etc.  I love to watch football and refuse to play along with a president that wants to politicize and divide the game.

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2017, 10:35:55 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?

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Re: #takeaknee - respectful discussion please.
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 10:37:49 AM »
I also don't care about football. To me, kneeling isn't a sign of disrespect. You kneel before kings and god, so what's the problem with kneeling during a song? In the case of the national anthem, it's not traditional to kneel and that's why it seems wrong.

It is now full teams not coming out of the locker room during the anthem.

Now this part is a bit more complicated because not being present during the anthem does seem a bit disrespectful to me. Hard to explain...


If it's done in a low key manner, seems better than kneeling.

How would you not be present in a low-key manner? You're either there or not.  I think kneeling, while in the presence of others who are standing is a more inclusive way of doing it. In my opinion it shows a "we are together but we have our opinions/discontent".

If Kaepernick were my employee, I would have offered him the option to stay in the locker room and explain his decision on his own time.  Now that the entire Steeler's team is in on the protest, you are correct it's more difficult to do in a low key manner.

If the NFL's ratings slide continues and/or this is found to contribute to it, I suspect the NFL's tune may change on the subject.  As I said, I support their right as employer to make a decision regarding their employees.

Are NFL ratings really sliding or is that just more Trump fake news?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-right-nfl-ratings-are-down-he-gets-reasons-wrong-670184

I think NFL ratings are down for a whole bunch of reasons.  This may or may not be part of it.