Author Topic: Syrian Refugees  (Read 29896 times)

Goldielocks

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #200 on: February 23, 2016, 12:44:58 AM »
> This is why it is hard to get some of these refugees to leave the UNHCR camps to travel to USA and Canada,

Now that's a good one.
Many of them would happily leave for the US or Canada, unfortunately these countries refuse to take up any of them.

Where do you get your information?  Canada recently announced taking in 25,000 refugees, and the UNHCR / Canada's intial texting to many times that, announcing the program for registered refugees had a huge initial "no thanks, Canada is too far away" response...  Many, of those who showed up for the interview turned it down.

Oh yeah and this was with sponsored Refugee resettlement, too.

"Only about 6.3 per cent of refugees contacted indicated they were interested in coming to Canada when the UN got in touch with them between Nov. 18 and 26. This was chiefly in Jordan but also in Lebanon."
  Globe and Mail article Dec 2015

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/syrian-refugees-not-keen-to-move-to-canada-immediately-ottawa-says/article27561756/
 It is changing now, but realize that there is a huge difference between economic migrants, and UNHCR refugees.  My original comment / post was a rebuttal that men were leaving their women and children to fend for themselves...   

Cassie

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #201 on: February 23, 2016, 07:38:42 AM »
That's what is bothering me about this whole thing. If you truly were fleeing for your life you would be willing to go to any stable country. But many insisted on gong to Germany even when other European countries offered to take them in. Now the reverse side is that I saw many washed up dead bodies on shore on the national news from people trying to escape so obviously these were true refugees that were willing to risk their lives to get out.

former player

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #202 on: February 23, 2016, 08:19:35 AM »
That's what is bothering me about this whole thing. If you truly were fleeing for your life you would be willing to go to any stable country. But many insisted on gong to Germany even when other European countries offered to take them in. Now the reverse side is that I saw many washed up dead bodies on shore on the national news from people trying to escape so obviously these were true refugees that were willing to risk their lives to get out.
The risks of unseaworthy boats supplied by criminal people traffickers do not discriminate according to whether the people on board are "refugees" or "economic migrants".  The "reward" of life in rich northern Europe with legal residency and a chance to bring extended family across as well is a big enough draw to encourage significant risk-taking whatever the original incentive to leave the home state.

Given that almost every potential migrant into Europe has reached a country where they are safe from war and persecution even before they get on a boat across the mediterranean, there is an argument to be made that most of the people now coming across the Mediterranean to Europe are in some sense "economic migrants".   Which is not to say that conditions for refugees in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon are not close to hopeless, but in general they are not "in danger of losing life and limb from war and terrorism" hopeless.
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Jack

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #203 on: February 25, 2016, 09:15:15 AM »
Given that almost every potential migrant into Europe has reached a country where they are safe from war and persecution even before they get on a boat across the mediterranean, there is an argument to be made that most of the people now coming across the Mediterranean to Europe are in some sense "economic migrants".

What are you talking about? Unless I'm mistaken, most of the people crossing the Mediterranean are coming from Libya, which is also in the midst of a civil war / terrorist crisis (recall what the "L" in "ISIL" means).

Paul der Krake

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #204 on: February 25, 2016, 09:36:48 AM »
Given that almost every potential migrant into Europe has reached a country where they are safe from war and persecution even before they get on a boat across the mediterranean, there is an argument to be made that most of the people now coming across the Mediterranean to Europe are in some sense "economic migrants".   Which is not to say that conditions for refugees in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon are not close to hopeless, but in general they are not "in danger of losing life and limb from war and terrorism" hopeless.
Of course they are. They've already left everything they know behind. Why stop at the first "okay" area when they can keep going and get the best life they can achieve for themselves?

It's easy to talk about the rule of law from the comfort of our living rooms. In their shoes, I doubt I would give a toss about Germany's  geopolitical concerns either. This would be the opportunity of a lifetime, no way I am getting off that train until someone makes me.

former player

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #205 on: February 25, 2016, 10:12:48 AM »
Given that almost every potential migrant into Europe has reached a country where they are safe from war and persecution even before they get on a boat across the mediterranean, there is an argument to be made that most of the people now coming across the Mediterranean to Europe are in some sense "economic migrants".

What are you talking about? Unless I'm mistaken, most of the people crossing the Mediterranean are coming from Libya, which is also in the midst of a civil war / terrorist crisis (recall what the "L" in "ISIL" means).
You are mistaken.

1.  Frontex statistics for 2015 show more than four times the number of migrants coming across the med from Turkey to Greece as from Libya to Italy.

2.  Libyans are not even in the top ten nations of migrants coming across the med to Europe.  The migrants setting out from Libya are overwhelmingly people from other countries who have chosen to go through Libya because it is a failed state which doesn't control criminal people trafficking.

3.  The "L" in ISIL stands for "Levant", not Libya, and Libya is not usually treated as part of the modern Levant, although historically it was part of the wider Levant. There is a fairly recent and rapidly growing ISIS/ISIL presence in Libya, but that presence in Libya is not (yet) the cause of mass migration to Europe.
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Lyssa

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #206 on: February 25, 2016, 11:26:51 AM »
Given that almost every potential migrant into Europe has reached a country where they are safe from war and persecution even before they get on a boat across the mediterranean, there is an argument to be made that most of the people now coming across the Mediterranean to Europe are in some sense "economic migrants".   Which is not to say that conditions for refugees in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon are not close to hopeless, but in general they are not "in danger of losing life and limb from war and terrorism" hopeless.
Of course they are. They've already left everything they know behind. Why stop at the first "okay" area when they can keep going and get the best life they can achieve for themselves?

It's easy to talk about the rule of law from the comfort of our living rooms. In their shoes, I doubt I would give a toss about Germany's  geopolitical concerns either. This would be the opportunity of a lifetime, no way I am getting off that train until someone makes me.

Oh absolutely!

In the shoes of a young man or woman in some hopeless country without fulfilling the criteria for legal migration I would do no different.

The point that I do not understand is that the German government is so naive and stupid not to see this rationale and the very obvious consequences which includes denying entry to the country of choice and to send people on the way back to safe countries or UNHCR camps.

I further do realize that me being born in the first world and in this time was pure dumb luck and how easy it is for me to point to national and international law. I just don't see how destabilizing our own country is doing any good in the long run or how it should absolve us of some generalized guilt.

Jack

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #207 on: February 25, 2016, 11:35:34 AM »
You are mistaken.

Well, crap. I stand corrected!

xclonexclonex

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #208 on: February 26, 2016, 09:51:48 AM »
The frustrating part of this whole debate for me, is defining who is actually an asylum seeker. This mass movement of people into Europe has been hijacked to a sizeable degree by economic migrants and opportunists.

It has become harder and harder for unskilled workers (or those who would not qualify under skills/educational requirements) to legally migrate to developed countries. So we have this situation whereby people are posing as asylum seekers, when they are really migrants, as this is their only route in.

Some of the Syrians and other nationalities (Afghans, Iraqis) have been working/living in or have passed through safe countries to get to Germany or Sweden. In other cases, their home countries may not be the greatest (Balkans, South Asia, West Africa)  but they are not in active danger. Poverty and lack of economic opportunity is not a reason for refugee status and goodness knows, there is no end to the tide of human misery in this world. I live in the Philippines and see it every day.

The EU cannot take all of them...but how does it decide between them? The traditional view of a asylum seeker as someone fleeing a warzone to the nearest safe place, no longer holds true. But if the West is to continue to shelter asylum seekers and grant refugee status, it must make a firm distinction about who qualifies now.

It is probably very hard to distinguish between an economic migrant and a true asylum seeker. However, does it matter? We already have the H1B skilled worker programs that admin 85000 "skilled" workers every year, a large number of which are hardly skilled and are used by companies to cut wages.  I'd argue that we can make a better case for a Syrian economic migrant than the skilled workers who come from middle to upper class families in India and China for the most part. I'm NOT advocating suspending the tech worker visa program, just making a point.

I came here on an F1 (student visa), then I got an H1B visa. I can tell you, I am not that skilled.

I can say that out loud now because I got a green card :p

scottish

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #209 on: February 26, 2016, 08:24:38 PM »
That's interesting.   What are your skills?

xclonexclonex

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #210 on: February 26, 2016, 08:41:16 PM »
That's interesting.   What are your skills?

I have no "skills" as such. I have a master's degree in industrial engineering. Whatever the hell that is. When I applied for my F1 visa, I wrote a letter to consulate telling them that I intend to go back after I finished my degree. That was in 2008. I get paid less than a US worker of the same "skill" I am sure, but who cares. lol.

I fill the diversity quota by showing up to work. lol.

clairebonk

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #211 on: March 15, 2017, 11:34:48 AM »
I went to the OP's link:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/aidrefugees
And it says "page unavailable". That makes me sad. I am currently donating to the International Rescue Committee. I'm not sure what else I can be doing to help people who got the bad luck of being born into a war-torn country.


Goldielocks

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #212 on: March 15, 2017, 02:37:54 PM »
I went to the OP's link:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/aidrefugees
And it says "page unavailable". That makes me sad. I am currently donating to the International Rescue Committee. I'm not sure what else I can be doing to help people who got the bad luck of being born into a war-torn country.
Look for how to help refugees that have already entered the USA, for now.   

Once they get on their feet, and start making money, they will pull in relatives, too, in a few years, when things open up again, legally, and help the relatives get on their feet, too..  Pay it forward..

jrhampt

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #213 on: March 15, 2017, 07:19:27 PM »
Tutoring English at the library is one way.