Author Topic: Syrian Refugees  (Read 23219 times)

PKFFW

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #150 on: December 14, 2015, 08:45:55 PM »
I'm not even going to answer to "stole thier land for Jewish" people in order to not completely derail the thread...

Answering the original idea/point in a seperate post.
Yes it would likely derail the thread.  Also, whether the land was stolen or not is beside the point anyway. 

Really my point is that if the effort and money could be found to help refugees start and settle an entirely new country and then support those refugees economically and militarily for many subsequent decades after WW2 then why could not the much less sum of effort and money be found now to help these refugees?

I look forward to your response.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #151 on: December 15, 2015, 12:30:07 AM »
I'm not even going to answer to "stole thier land for Jewish" people in order to not completely derail the thread...

Answering the original idea/point in a seperate post.
Yes it would likely derail the thread.  Also, whether the land was stolen or not is beside the point anyway. 

Really my point is that if the effort and money could be found to help refugees start and settle an entirely new country and then support those refugees economically and militarily for many subsequent decades after WW2 then why could not the much less sum of effort and money be found now to help these refugees?

I look forward to your response.

I already answered that. Refugees can and should be helped via the UNHCR and settled in neighboring countries with a similar culture. Because of the different COL, money spend in e.g. Libanon or Jordan helps many more people than that spend right now in Germany. A bunk bed in a tent here is permanent accommodation in a regular building there. This, btw is exactly the model that is in accordance with international treaties. Of course wealthy countries should provide the funds to the UNHCR and not cut them. Wealthy countries includes not only the West but also the Gulf States.

Additionally, first world countries can and should volunteer to take in certain numbers directly. The picking and choosing should be done via the embassies in the Middle East or other troubled regions, no one should have to wait two years for the opportunity to file an application. Illegal immigrants should be returned to either their home country -IF- it is safe (yes, there are immigrants from safe countries, e.g. Albania or Serbia) or to the UNHCR.

If this is done for a few months and people realize that the only way to live in Europe is through the embassies and visas the people smugglers business will dry up. Middle Eastern families will no longer lose their life savings by sending a son to Europe (as dangerous and miserable the trip to Europe is, don't think for a minute that it is cheap. Any single refugee has spent thousands of euros on this endeavor.) And, last but not least: no more people would drown in the Mediterranean Sea.

Any further questions to a raging xenophobe? You know, the kind who wants Germans and immigrants to marry?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:38:35 AM by Lyssa »

PKFFW

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #152 on: December 15, 2015, 03:13:02 AM »
I already answered that. Refugees can and should be helped via the UNHCR and settled in neighboring countries with a similar culture. Because of the different COL, money spend in e.g. Libanon or Jordan helps many more people than that spend right now in Germany. A bunk bed in a tent here is permanent accommodation in a regular building there. This, btw is exactly the model that is in accordance with international treaties. Of course wealthy countries should provide the funds to the UNHCR and not cut them. Wealthy countries includes not only the West but also the Gulf States.

Additionally, first world countries can and should volunteer to take in certain numbers directly. The picking and choosing should be done via the embassies in the Middle East or other troubled regions, no one should have to wait two years for the opportunity to file an application. Illegal immigrants should be returned to either their home country -IF- it is safe (yes, there are immigrants from safe countries, e.g. Albania or Serbia) or to the UNHCR.

If this is done for a few months and people realize that the only way to live in Europe is through the embassies and visas the people smugglers business will dry up. Middle Eastern families will no longer lose their life savings by sending a son to Europe (as dangerous and miserable the trip to Europe is, don't think for a minute that it is cheap. Any single refugee has spent thousands of euros on this endeavor.) And, last but not least: no more people would drown in the Mediterranean Sea.
None of which really answers the question.

Money provided to the UNHCR is being cut.  People, in USA predominantly but also in Europe, are suggesting less should effort and money should be spent on refugees and less taken in.  The amount of effort and money actually being spent is, seemingly, much less than that spent on helping certain refugees after WW2.

My question, is specifically not "should" the money and effort be found.  I think most people, on here anyway, agree that it "should" be found. 

Rather, I'm asking specifically why it is that the money and effort, at least from the USA, is not being found?  Secondary to that, and specifically for those few arguing it that it should not be found by Europe or the USA, why it should be found elsewhere and by other countries?
Quote from: Lyssa
Any further questions to a raging xenophobe? You know, the kind who wants Germans and immigrants to marry?
I never accused you of being a xenophobe.  I never even suggested such a thing.  I never made any comment at all regarding you personally.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #153 on: December 15, 2015, 03:36:39 AM »
I already answered that. Refugees can and should be helped via the UNHCR and settled in neighboring countries with a similar culture. Because of the different COL, money spend in e.g. Libanon or Jordan helps many more people than that spend right now in Germany. A bunk bed in a tent here is permanent accommodation in a regular building there. This, btw is exactly the model that is in accordance with international treaties. Of course wealthy countries should provide the funds to the UNHCR and not cut them. Wealthy countries includes not only the West but also the Gulf States.

Additionally, first world countries can and should volunteer to take in certain numbers directly. The picking and choosing should be done via the embassies in the Middle East or other troubled regions, no one should have to wait two years for the opportunity to file an application. Illegal immigrants should be returned to either their home country -IF- it is safe (yes, there are immigrants from safe countries, e.g. Albania or Serbia) or to the UNHCR.

If this is done for a few months and people realize that the only way to live in Europe is through the embassies and visas the people smugglers business will dry up. Middle Eastern families will no longer lose their life savings by sending a son to Europe (as dangerous and miserable the trip to Europe is, don't think for a minute that it is cheap. Any single refugee has spent thousands of euros on this endeavor.) And, last but not least: no more people would drown in the Mediterranean Sea.
None of which really answers the question.

Money provided to the UNHCR is being cut.  People, in USA predominantly but also in Europe, are suggesting less should effort and money should be spent on refugees and less taken in.  The amount of effort and money actually being spent is, seemingly, much less than that spent on helping certain refugees after WW2.

My question, is specifically not "should" the money and effort be found.  I think most people, on here anyway, agree that it "should" be found. 

Rather, I'm asking specifically why it is that the money and effort, at least from the USA, is not being found?  Secondary to that, and specifically for those few arguing it that it should not be found by Europe or the USA, why it should be found elsewhere and by other countries?
Quote from: Lyssa
Any further questions to a raging xenophobe? You know, the kind who wants Germans and immigrants to marry?
I never accused you of being a xenophobe.  I never even suggested such a thing.  I never made any comment at all regarding you personally.

True, you did not. Apologies for directing frustration at you which was not caused by you but the debate in general.

Generally, the UNHCR is and has always been underfunded and that's a crying shame.

Not with the intention to derail but: the UNRWA has received the equivalent of a few Marshall plans and has not built anything sustainable with it.

Why the US is not providing more I leave for the US Americans to answer.

Why we have cut funding and then spent much, much more on our unsustainable open door policy? Because we are governed by politicians happy to accept 'ugly pictures' in refugee camps far away from us but are too weak to accept only a fraction of such ugliness close to them (like German police telling people: sorry, if you don't have a visa and are not fleeing from any war in Austria and all the other countries you crossed we can't let you in and if you're entering anyway we'll have to return you.). We're governed by that kind of people because we elected them. Because the majority around here likes that kind of denialists and hypocrites.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #154 on: December 15, 2015, 12:14:48 PM »
I think we are not taking more because it is very unpopular in the states. Also it will be an election year and of course the politicians are looking out for their votes. Trump says the most ridiculous things like throwing out all the Muslims that live here and his ratings go up which I do not understand.  I am all for taking away the subsidies to big companies and using the $ for humanitarian aid.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #155 on: December 15, 2015, 01:22:22 PM »
I think we are not taking more because it is very unpopular in the states. Also it will be an election year and of course the politicians are looking out for their votes. Trump says the most ridiculous things like throwing out all the Muslims that live here and his ratings go up which I do not understand.  I am all for taking away the subsidies to big companies and using the $ for humanitarian aid.

The US has a long and storied history of denigrating and persecuting immigrants and minorities. Interactions with the Native Americans, slave trade, exploration of Chinese railroad workers, employment and education discrimination against Irish immigrants, to name a few examples.

MMMaybe

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #156 on: December 16, 2015, 06:20:00 PM »
The frustrating part of this whole debate for me, is defining who is actually an asylum seeker. This mass movement of people into Europe has been hijacked to a sizeable degree by economic migrants and opportunists.

It has become harder and harder for unskilled workers (or those who would not qualify under skills/educational requirements) to legally migrate to developed countries. So we have this situation whereby people are posing as asylum seekers, when they are really migrants, as this is their only route in.

Some of the Syrians and other nationalities (Afghans, Iraqis) have been working/living in or have passed through safe countries to get to Germany or Sweden. In other cases, their home countries may not be the greatest (Balkans, South Asia, West Africa)  but they are not in active danger. Poverty and lack of economic opportunity is not a reason for refugee status and goodness knows, there is no end to the tide of human misery in this world. I live in the Philippines and see it every day.

The EU cannot take all of them...but how does it decide between them? The traditional view of a asylum seeker as someone fleeing a warzone to the nearest safe place, no longer holds true. But if the West is to continue to shelter asylum seekers and grant refugee status, it must make a firm distinction about who qualifies now.


madmax

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #157 on: December 16, 2015, 11:29:21 PM »
The frustrating part of this whole debate for me, is defining who is actually an asylum seeker. This mass movement of people into Europe has been hijacked to a sizeable degree by economic migrants and opportunists.

It has become harder and harder for unskilled workers (or those who would not qualify under skills/educational requirements) to legally migrate to developed countries. So we have this situation whereby people are posing as asylum seekers, when they are really migrants, as this is their only route in.

Some of the Syrians and other nationalities (Afghans, Iraqis) have been working/living in or have passed through safe countries to get to Germany or Sweden. In other cases, their home countries may not be the greatest (Balkans, South Asia, West Africa)  but they are not in active danger. Poverty and lack of economic opportunity is not a reason for refugee status and goodness knows, there is no end to the tide of human misery in this world. I live in the Philippines and see it every day.

The EU cannot take all of them...but how does it decide between them? The traditional view of a asylum seeker as someone fleeing a warzone to the nearest safe place, no longer holds true. But if the West is to continue to shelter asylum seekers and grant refugee status, it must make a firm distinction about who qualifies now.

It is probably very hard to distinguish between an economic migrant and a true asylum seeker. However, does it matter? We already have the H1B skilled worker programs that admin 85000 "skilled" workers every year, a large number of which are hardly skilled and are used by companies to cut wages.  I'd argue that we can make a better case for a Syrian economic migrant than the skilled workers who come from middle to upper class families in India and China for the most part. I'm NOT advocating suspending the tech worker visa program, just making a point.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #158 on: December 23, 2015, 06:46:17 AM »
It's one of those situations without a really good answer. From one side it's undeniably true that Germany (or Sweden) can't accept unlimited number of these people, but from the other hand sending people back to Syria or Iraq is not feasible either. Neighbouring countries are already overwhelmed with Syrian refugees (ca 2 million in Turkey, up to 20% of population in Lebanon). Culture there is more similar but hardly identical. How long would you keep people in some tent cities anyway?

The only thing I'm completely convinced about is that if we do take some people here in Western Europe then we also ought to give them work permits immediately with the same rights to work as locals.  Also we would need to help with the language to turn max percentage of these people into economically productive citizens. Such an arrangement is in everybody's interest!

Jack

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2015, 07:26:24 AM »
Neighbouring countries are [NOT] already overwhelmed with Syrian refugees (ca 2 million in Turkey, up to 20% of population in Lebanon)  (0 in Saudi Arabia and UAE).

FTFY.

(I agree that Western Europe and especially the USA should accept more, and I agree with that despite the fact that the Saudis et. al. aren't accepting their fair share, which supports the other side of the debate. Their moral failing does not excuse ours.)

Albert

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #160 on: December 23, 2015, 08:01:56 AM »
There is no way we can force UAE and Saudi Arabia to take any refugees plus they are not direct neighbours of Syria. Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (600,000 Syrians refugees there) are... The last two are poor and definitely could claim to be already overwhelmed.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #161 on: December 23, 2015, 08:14:42 AM »
There is no way we can force UAE and Saudi Arabia to take any refugees plus they are not direct neighbours of Syria. Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (600,000 Syrians refugees there) are... The last two are poor and definitely could claim to be already overwhelmed.

Saudi Arabia is a direct neighbor of Iraq, and if I'm not mistaken, there are a bunch of refugees from there too. Besides, Western Europe isn't a direct neighbor of Syria either!

Also, I'm pretty sure the US could force Saudi Arabia to do just about anything, if it wanted to badly enough (i.e., in the same way it forced Iraq to depose Saddam). But it won't, because Saudi Arabia is (inexplicably) its ally.

Albert

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #162 on: December 23, 2015, 08:22:16 AM »
Maybe US could albeit in my opinion not under realistic scenarios. Germany or Sweden have no chance of even that much.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #163 on: December 23, 2015, 05:04:03 PM »
There's a small uproar in Ottawa.   The new Liberal government promised to welcome 25,000 refugees to Canada by year end and they aren't making their numbers.  I don't completely understand why this is upsetting or surprising though.  You can make a graph and show how many refugees we're going to be able to bring over every month.     Linky:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-to-miss-reduced-target-of-10000-refugees-by-years-end/article27920815/

brainfart

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #164 on: January 08, 2016, 05:56:42 AM »
Cologne.
Discuss.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #165 on: January 08, 2016, 06:35:42 AM »
People wear too much of it.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #166 on: January 08, 2016, 06:57:18 AM »
Cologne.

Was there a month and 1/2 ago (been there before) for a quick one day layover.  Nice city.

People can do terrible things.

But the world, as a whole, is beautiful.
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #167 on: January 08, 2016, 07:08:59 AM »
The German and local government response in suppressing what happened is disgusting.  The mayor of Cologne blamed the women for the bad behavior of these men.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/08/why-we-can-t-stay-silent-on-germany-s-mass-sex-assaults.html
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #168 on: January 08, 2016, 07:54:39 AM »
Wow, this has been an interesting read.

For perspective

38,000,000 people are security checked and pass through Pearson airport (Toronto) annually (domestic and international)
25,000 people are expected to arrive in Canada as refugees from Syria in total.

I ASSUME the ratio of terrorists to non-terrorists coming from Syria is actually less than the number of people screened by the airport in an hour. This is because the Syrians have been background checked and investigated for a year before coming to the country as opposed to the rest of the passenger load who go through a 5 minute security check at the gate.

Lets go worst case scenario. If every one of those 25,000 Syrians coming here turned out to be terrorists, the most successful terrorist attack I am aware of is 9-11. Actually Pearl Harbour may have been worse, but I'm too lazy to look up the numbers. 9-11 killed 19 terrorists and about 3,000 Americans, or each terrorist killed 158 people. Assuming a similar death rate on every attack (extremely unlikely) it would take 221,519 refugees to wipe out the entire Canadian population if no one ever fought back. So by an order of magnitude of 9.XXXX, we should be mostly OK.
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Jack

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #169 on: January 08, 2016, 08:29:50 AM »
the most successful terrorist attack I am aware of is 9-11. Actually Pearl Harbour may have been worse, but I'm too lazy to look up the numbers.

Pearl Harbor wasn't a terrorist attack. It was an attack by regular military units on a legitimate military target, for the purpose of destroying the target's ability to retaliate (not to sow fear, which is required by the definition of terrorism).

Prospector

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #170 on: January 08, 2016, 09:13:18 AM »
I stand corrected on Pearl Harbour.

As an aside, I wonder what the per person cost is of chartering the Mediterranean cruise sheep fleet when they go to do their relocation cruises in the fall. You could offer the refugees a portion of the staff positions (housekeeping, cooking) as training and use the entertainment theaters for classes (language, culture, geography) and do a 2-3 week working cruise to bring them across to north american ports. Somewhat similar to the Quenn Mary/Queen Elizabeth carrying troops eastward and British war children westward.

Although it would be slow travel, the time might be useful and the costs might be comparable.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 09:19:16 AM by Prospector »
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #171 on: January 08, 2016, 10:07:27 AM »
It's quite expensive to charter Mediterranean cruise sheep.  Very few of them survive the harshness of the salt water for long enough to become long term cruisers.  The sodden wool slows them down so much in the water that it's hard to escape predators.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2016, 10:10:53 AM »
It's quite expensive to charter Mediterranean cruise sheep.  Very few of them survive the harshness of the salt water for long enough to become long term cruisers.  The sodden wool slows them down so much in the water that it's hard to escape predators.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2016, 10:14:50 AM »
It's quite expensive to charter Mediterranean cruise sheep.  Very few of them survive the harshness of the salt water for long enough to become long term cruisers.  The sodden wool slows them down so much in the water that it's hard to escape predators.

I owe you a beer for "WTF - Ohhh, shit" moment of the day.
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2016, 10:26:30 AM »
It's quite expensive to charter Mediterranean cruise sheep.  Very few of them survive the harshness of the salt water for long enough to become long term cruisers.  The sodden wool slows them down so much in the water that it's hard to escape predators.

Coincidentally, only four posts ago you yourself became a mammal much better suited to the task.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #175 on: January 08, 2016, 10:51:14 AM »
It's quite expensive to charter Mediterranean cruise sheep.  Very few of them survive the harshness of the salt water for long enough to become long term cruisers.  The sodden wool slows them down so much in the water that it's hard to escape predators.

Coincidentally, only four posts ago you yourself became a mammal much better suited to the task.

I cannot lie. I like big butts.
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Lyssa

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #176 on: January 08, 2016, 12:13:54 PM »
From the link above:

"Having said that, what is infuriating and totally counterproductive is to deny that a specifically cultural problem around immigration patterns and European sexual norms has been steadily rising across the continent. To pretend this is not the case only further stigmatizes us brown Muslim men. That the problem requires attention is clear.

German police unions and women’s right groups have recently accused authorities of underplaying cases of rape at refugee shelters. “There is a lot of glossing over going on. But this doesn’t represent reality,” police union chief Rainer Wendt told Reuters. Henry Ove Berg, who was a police chief during Norway’s recent spike in rape cases, said, “people from some parts of the world have never seen a girl in a miniskirt, only in a burqa… when they get to Norway, something happens in their heads.” He added that “there was a link but not a very clear link” between the rape cases in Norway and immigrants. Hanne Kristin Rohde, former head of the violent crime section of the Oslo Police Department, was criticized in 2011 when she went public with data suggesting that immigrants committed a hugely disproportionate number of rapes. “This was a big problem… but it was difficult to talk about,” she remarked. There was “a clear statistical connection between sexual violence and male migrants.”

This is all controversial, but it must be said. Anecdotal attitudes point to the same conclusion. Abdu Osman Kelifa, an Eritrean asylum seeker to Norway, recently told The New York Times that in his home country, “if someone wants a lady, he can just take her and he will not be punished.” He confessed that it was still hard for him to accept that a woman could accuse her husband of rape.

Between denying the problem and using it to fuel bigoted far-right rhetoric, an approach grounded in data and a level head is vital"


This. A hundred times this.

I'm sick of what happened. I'm more sick of the repeated attempts to cover up the whole thing or vital facts. And I'm beyond sick with "whataboutisms" and "people do bad things to people - no use in getting more specific than that" narratives.

This is what happens if you value ideology over facts. This is what happens if a government acts like a bunch of goodwilled but terribly naive 5 year olds. And this is what happens if a state makes it known to the world that it no longer cares about enforcing its rules. That a warm welcome trumps every law, both national and international (mind you, the parliament never decided to open the doors or adopted a statute to that effect. Merkel just decreed as much on television).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 03:06:46 AM by Lyssa »

Shane

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #177 on: January 08, 2016, 02:37:52 PM »
From the article linked above:

Quote
Martin Thalhammer, the headmaster at Wilhelm-Diess-Gymnasium, a school in Pocking, Bavaria, sent a letter home to parents advising them that “Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to, in order to avoid discrepancies. Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings.” With men accounting for about 70 percent of asylum seekers, some groups across Germany have demanded gender-segregated accommodation and safe zones for women.

No. European progressive and feminist groups have toiled over centuries to educate us all that rape victims are not responsible for the actions of the rapist. Victim-blaming and demanding that women change their behavior are the worst ways to respond to rape culture. They only sexualize the victim more.


Women in Europe shouldn't have to change their behavior to accommodate recent Muslim immigrants. Immigrants should be educated on the cultural norms in their host countries, and if they have any trouble following them, they should be sent back to wherever they came from.

A long time ago my wife and I spent some months trekking in northwest China and Northern Pakistan. The day after we crossed over into Pakistan two young men who spoke English confronted me on the trail and told me that I was not allowed to wear shorts in their country, because, they said, it was offensive to their culture. My wife, of course, was not wearing shorts, and my "shorts" were almost down to my knees, so I didn't think it'd be a problem, but the two men were insistent that I put on pants, right then. They, literally, stood there and waited while I took off my hiking boots and pulled a pair of sweatpants over my shorts. They weren't making a request. It was an order that I put on long pants.

This is how I was treated as a guest in a Muslim country, so I have no qualms about requiring that Muslim immigrants to Western countries adapt to our cultural norms. Whenever I hear about Muslim immigrants who are complaining that they want their daughters to wear hijab in public schools or their wives to be able to have their drivers license photos taken while wearing a burqa or need to have breaks at work 5 times a day so that they can roll out their mats and pray towards Mecca, my reaction is FUCK THEM! They chose to come here to our countries. If they don't like it, they can go back to wherever they came from.

Having said that, I think a lot of the responsibility for immigrants' lack of assimilation into their host cultures can be blamed on the host governments themselves. They make a big show of letting immigrants into the country as some great, magnanimous gesture, but then the political will to follow up and make sure that the immigrants learn the language, culture, etc., gets lost somewhere along the way. If we're not going to MAKE SURE that all immigrants to our countries feel welcome, learn the local languages and cultures, and get jobs, then we shouldn't let them into our countries in the first place.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #178 on: January 08, 2016, 05:28:09 PM »
From the article linked above:

Quote
Martin Thalhammer, the headmaster at Wilhelm-Diess-Gymnasium, a school in Pocking, Bavaria, sent a letter home to parents advising them that “Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to, in order to avoid discrepancies. Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings.” With men accounting for about 70 percent of asylum seekers, some groups across Germany have demanded gender-segregated accommodation and safe zones for women.

No. European progressive and feminist groups have toiled over centuries to educate us all that rape victims are not responsible for the actions of the rapist. Victim-blaming and demanding that women change their behavior are the worst ways to respond to rape culture. They only sexualize the victim more.


Women in Europe shouldn't have to change their behavior to accommodate recent Muslim immigrants. Immigrants should be educated on the cultural norms in their host countries, and if they have any trouble following them, they should be sent back to wherever they came from.

A long time ago my wife and I spent some months trekking in northwest China and Northern Pakistan. The day after we crossed over into Pakistan two young men who spoke English confronted me on the trail and told me that I was not allowed to wear shorts in their country, because, they said, it was offensive to their culture. My wife, of course, was not wearing shorts, and my "shorts" were almost down to my knees, so I didn't think it'd be a problem, but the two men were insistent that I put on pants, right then. They, literally, stood there and waited while I took off my hiking boots and pulled a pair of sweatpants over my shorts. They weren't making a request. It was an order that I put on long pants.

This is how I was treated as a guest in a Muslim country, so I have no qualms about requiring that Muslim immigrants to Western countries adapt to our cultural norms. Whenever I hear about Muslim immigrants who are complaining that they want their daughters to wear hijab in public schools or their wives to be able to have their drivers license photos taken while wearing a burqa or need to have breaks at work 5 times a day so that they can roll out their mats and pray towards Mecca, my reaction is FUCK THEM! They chose to come here to our countries. If they don't like it, they can go back to wherever they came from.

Having said that, I think a lot of the responsibility for immigrants' lack of assimilation into their host cultures can be blamed on the host governments themselves. They make a big show of letting immigrants into the country as some great, magnanimous gesture, but then the political will to follow up and make sure that the immigrants learn the language, culture, etc., gets lost somewhere along the way. If we're not going to MAKE SURE that all immigrants to our countries feel welcome, learn the local languages and cultures, and get jobs, then we shouldn't let them into our countries in the first place.

What about Muslims in our country who are not immigrants?
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Shane

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #179 on: January 08, 2016, 05:45:42 PM »
I don't have anything in particular against Muslims. I'm just sick and tired of being held hostage to everybody's bullshit religions. American citizens who are Muslims should be treated just like everyone else.

Recently I worked with a guy who was a Catholic. He was a great guy. I liked him. But he kept complaining that he didn't like that the work cafeteria served meat on Fridays. We all asked him, "Why don't you just eat from the salad bar if you don't want meat?" But apparently the salad bar wasn't enough for him. He wanted everybody else to not eat meat as well.

My daughter's elementary school used to do a Halloween parade every year, where the little kids would dress up in their costumes and parade around the campus. This year they cancelled the parade. I asked why and was told it was because some families who are Jehovah's Witnesses complained. They don't celebrate Halloween or any other holidays, so they don't want anyone else to have fun either. Apparently some parents threatened to keep their kids home from school for the entire week of Halloween if there were going to be any Halloween-related activities going on, so the school cancelled everything.

Everyone should be able to practice his religion privately, but when people start demanding accommodations in the workplace and in public schools, I think they should be told no. Secularism in public places should be non-negotiable.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #180 on: January 08, 2016, 06:36:11 PM »
If someone refuses to integrate, they can get fucked. Celebrate your cultural and religious shit all you want, but when you start wanting to change things because of your culture or religion, get the fuck out.

Oh, and maybe don't rape people, that'd be good too.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #181 on: January 08, 2016, 08:11:49 PM »
I have spent a lot of time living in developing countries. There are a lot of VERY good reasons why people want to live in the West/developed countries. Developed countries are like a relative Paradise in many ways, when you consider things like personal safety, a functioning civil service and just plain organisation and ease of getting things done. Not having to deal with constant graft and general chaos...ahhhh so nice to think about...

(Please note the use of the word relative, before you tell me that these countries are not Paradise. In comparison to places like where I live/have lived/have travelled in...they are)

I think the West in particular needs to stop downplaying the truly great aspects of their culture and society. We do not have to accept the negative aspects  of other cultures, under the guise of being non-racist or whatever.

I think more and more, that newcomers should respect our ways. As I do when living in other countries. Planes go both ways. If our way of life does not suit, there are options.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #182 on: January 09, 2016, 06:13:54 AM »
media sensationalism again...

it's another story spun by the media to generate views and profit.  we've seen this time and time again.  stoking fear and then what?

so a question i have is why "all at once"?  this happens everyday in regular life as background noise in our societies (robbery, groping, rape, etc) and isn't reported and occurs in low level amounts at a time.  then we get one massive event that just seems too coordinated and timed but for what purpose?  To get media attention in order to breed anti-refugee/Islam sentiment? To whip up fear, rage, anger to drag westerners down to their level for their desire of some geopolitical boxing match to end all matches? Does the media want this to happen to get more views and profit by getting full coverage? What's the message for reported non-German & non-English speakers assaulting, robbing women during the holidays en masse? Or is this some Arabic New Year's eve tradition we never heard of? (the various nationalities makes this more confusing)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Turkish integration (i guess ancient history for some) to argue why we should accept all refugees yet.  No one watches football?  Though you can't compare the 2 just like wwii japan and today. Different experimental conditions will give different results.  Changing parameters changes the outcome.

The tone shifted a bit in this thread.  Maybe people who thought love and kindness conquers all will have some doubts about accepting hundreds of thousands of unfiltered people coming from a background that let's be honest, many aren't too happy about Western culture, don't play by the same rules, and only moved to Germany for welfare benefits.  If anyone watched, they made specific demands about Germany, not Hungary, or Austria, Germany.  They didn't like Turkey, but Germany, Sweden etc.  Right/wrong, smart/dumb, it's going to be very difficult to integrate all of them and there's going to be a lot of future conflict, tensions and long-term change in German culture/demographics.  A lot of supporters are making this issue sound so easy and simple to do, but there's nothing risk-free about this.  Refugee supporters overestimated this and ignored the challenges and consequences.  If you're not okay w/accepting the real consequences and going through the difficulties of integration, don't accept them.  If you are okay and willing to accept the risks, then you can.

I feel sorry for some Germans.  Having to deal w/ Americans telling Europeans what to do saying "you're a racist if you don't accept refugees, you should learn to live w/them, adopt their customs, be PC to their culture, and you better accept these people that we Americans forced from their homes (ultimately)" while we sit back and drop bombs and wage war on their homeland.  Oh and you're paying for it out of your own wallet, not ours.  Pretty easy for Americans to say. Classy.


Recently I worked with a guy who was a Catholic. He was a great guy. I liked him. But he kept complaining that he didn't like that the work cafeteria served meat on Fridays. We all asked him, "Why don't you just eat from the salad bar if you don't want meat?" But apparently the salad bar wasn't enough for him. He wanted everybody else to not eat meat as well.


well technically new dietary guidelines say less meat, and americans imo do eat too much meat in general.  just compare to other cultures' cuisines.  even outside a religious perspective, less meat is better, cheaper, and more Mustachian. but i agree w/you.   

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #183 on: January 09, 2016, 12:41:14 PM »
media sensationalism again...


Nope. Not in Germany at least.

The media kept this quite for days and only started reporting after people privatly exchanged their experience over social media and the whole net went nuts. ONLY THEN have our tv chanels and newspapers started reporting. For some (including me) that's the even bigger scandal than the incident as such (which btw is by no means ordinary, something of that proportion has never happenend in the history of the Federal Republic of Germany). And it plays right into the hand of our right wing radicals who have accused politicians and the media of covering up such things for a long time.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #184 on: January 09, 2016, 02:41:12 PM »
With social media it is impossible to keep something like this hidden for long. The host country should not have to accommodate someone else's religion and immigrants need to fit in.  Some immigrants arrived in Poland and people helped  them to find a place to live,etc but within days they had left for Germany. I don't think you should get to pick the country you are going to. If you are a true refugee you should be glad to go anywhere safe.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2016, 05:03:30 PM »
The other piece that doesn't get much play is the ratio of male to female refugees.  58% men, 17% women and 25% children.  When you've got a worse than 2 to 1 ratio men to women that makes it even more challenging on top of everything else.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #186 on: January 11, 2016, 12:00:35 AM »
The other piece that doesn't get much play is the ratio of male to female refugees.  58% men, 17% women and 25% children.  When you've got a worse than 2 to 1 ratio men to women that makes it even more challenging on top of everything else.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

The numbers included in here are probably correct for Germany as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/germany-on-the-brink.html?_r=0

And unfortunately the dilemma described is correct as well: Should what happened during the last year not be reversed (and I don't see that happening) then we're faced with the choice of accepting scewed gender ratios that spell violence or allow all those young men to bring along brides and family and thereby change the face of Germany forever. Without the people ever being given a choice whether they'd like that transformation to happen and without the parliament ever enacting a law to that effect. "Reckless humanitarianism" and "high-minded folly" indeed.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #187 on: February 18, 2016, 09:18:09 AM »
I don't have anything in particular against Muslims. I'm just sick and tired of being held hostage to everybody's bullshit religions. American citizens who are Muslims should be treated just like everyone else.

Recently I worked with a guy who was a Catholic. He was a great guy. I liked him. But he kept complaining that he didn't like that the work cafeteria served meat on Fridays. We all asked him, "Why don't you just eat from the salad bar if you don't want meat?" But apparently the salad bar wasn't enough for him. He wanted everybody else to not eat meat as well.

My daughter's elementary school used to do a Halloween parade every year, where the little kids would dress up in their costumes and parade around the campus. This year they cancelled the parade. I asked why and was told it was because some families who are Jehovah's Witnesses complained. They don't celebrate Halloween or any other holidays, so they don't want anyone else to have fun either. Apparently some parents threatened to keep their kids home from school for the entire week of Halloween if there were going to be any Halloween-related activities going on, so the school cancelled everything.

Everyone should be able to practice his religion privately, but when people start demanding accommodations in the workplace and in public schools, I think they should be told no. Secularism in public places should be non-negotiable.

Anti-theists unite!
I don't mind accommodations but many people think those accommodation mean effecting others.  They don't need to. I don't care if you don't eat meat, just don't try to keep me from it.  I don't care if you pray, just work your work around it.  Do keep in mind that Halloween is/was a religious practice so if you are saying you want secularism in the public, then no parade.

marty998

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #188 on: February 18, 2016, 01:33:31 PM »
Meanwhile, the cluster bombing continues over there.

What exactly are people fighting for over there? I get that at the bottom of the pile must be a group of civilians who want the same freedom we enjoy, but the conflict has drawn in so many disparate groups jockeying for control that even if one side 'wins' there will always be groups agitating to start another war.

I give up. I'm trying to tune out to the news broadcasts but it's hard not to just sit in stunned silence watching the drone footage over some of the Syrian cities.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #189 on: February 18, 2016, 03:24:10 PM »
Meanwhile, the cluster bombing continues over there.

What exactly are people fighting for over there? I get that at the bottom of the pile must be a group of civilians who want the same freedom we enjoy, but the conflict has drawn in so many disparate groups jockeying for control that even if one side 'wins' there will always be groups agitating to start another war.

I give up. I'm trying to tune out to the news broadcasts but it's hard not to just sit in stunned silence watching the drone footage over some of the Syrian cities.

The freedom that we enjoy is exactly what they are fighting against.

They are fighting for Sharia law, which from my limited understanding means law according to the Q'ran, based on the teachings of the clerics in charge. The argument is that prophecy in their scripture calls for the re-establishment of God's (Allah's)  kingdom on earth in order for the last dispensation to unfold in which the faithful are granted their reward for a life well lived.

In order to usher in that last dispensation, ISIL has tried to establish a Caliphate - a nation ruled entirely by the teachings of the Q'ran, down to the very letter of the law. Hence the Syrian dilemma - Syria was a Christian nation, and so nearly its entire population was exiled when ISIL demanded they either convert or die. This is also why so many ancient relics were destroyed - in order to have pure Muslim Nation, it is necessary to destroy anything that pays homage to any other religion. A number of Muslims also do not agree with ISIL's mandate, or methods, and so they are leaving as well. A third group are opportunists - people from all over Africa where war is ongoing, and they are using this conflict as a tool to enter the first world from the third.

Its not so very different from, say, a group of reformed Christians who climbed onto a boat and sailed across an ocean to escape religious persecution, establishing a new community on a new continent.  Oh wait, those were the pilgrims establishing America - that must be different.

I am not really well versed in the whole argument from the opposition's side - lets face it, we hear very little of what we are fighting against, and only what we are fighting for, but from my understanding this is the compulsion to war. Google is your friend here - but there is a lot of garbage to sift through before you get to the heart of it all.
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #190 on: February 18, 2016, 08:37:32 PM »
Its not so very different from, say, a group of reformed Christians who climbed onto a boat and sailed across an ocean to escape religious persecution, establishing a new community on a new continent.  Oh wait, those were the pilgrims establishing America - that must be different.
Except that's a myth.

The Christian pilgrims escaped to the new world because they were denied the right to religiously persecute others the way they wanted to.  Inability to persecute others is not the same as being persecuted oneself.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2016, 05:06:13 PM »
The other piece that doesn't get much play is the ratio of male to female refugees.  58% men, 17% women and 25% children.  When you've got a worse than 2 to 1 ratio men to women that makes it even more challenging on top of everything else.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

The numbers included in here are probably correct for Germany as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/germany-on-the-brink.html?_r=0

And unfortunately the dilemma described is correct as well: Should what happened during the last year not be reversed (and I don't see that happening) then we're faced with the choice of accepting scewed gender ratios that spell violence or allow all those young men to bring along brides and family and thereby change the face of Germany forever. Without the people ever being given a choice whether they'd like that transformation to happen and without the parliament ever enacting a law to that effect. "Reckless humanitarianism" and "high-minded folly" indeed.

The problem I see is that healthy young men are fleeing a war zone leaving their women and children to fend for themselves. That's cowardly. American and Canadian men would never run and leave their women and children behind if their country was at war...they would stay and fight.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 05:09:20 PM by music lover »

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2016, 05:08:42 PM »
I've never been in a true life or death situation like that for an extended time, so I have a hard time judging the actions of those who are.

I'd like to think I know what I'd do, but I can't say for sure, so, like I said, I have a hard time judging others for their actions.
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2016, 05:58:44 PM »
> American and Canadian men would never run and leave their women and children behind if their
> country was at war...they would stay and fight.

Oh yes, many would. No doubt about it
So which side would you choose? Do you prefer being drafted into Assad's army which obviously is waging a very dirty war against pretty much everyone in that country? Or would you rather choose one of the countless rebel groups, who fight against Assad, against each other, against NATO, the Russians and Turkey and who are also involved in atrocities against the civil population? Or maybe the Islamic State? And how do you prefer to die? Drone strike, air raid, carpet bombing, artillery attack, being wounded, starvation? I've heard the medical facilities in that country are first class these days. Or maybe you prefer to be executed?
Everyone not completely brain dead would try to get out of that hellhole as fast as possible and then try to get their family out afterwards, too. Because once you're dead you won't be able to help your loved ones anymore, y'know.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2016, 09:48:55 PM »
I think the situation is a lot more complicated than the OP, and many American's, think it is. I'm not claiming to understand it completely either, but I have a relative who has been working with refugees for a couple decades, and the integration process is extremely tough for many of them. Obviously no country can accept an unlimited amount of immigrants, and the "act now, think later" attitude is not the answer. Unfortunately, the best solution isn't always an ideal one.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2016, 01:12:45 AM »
The other piece that doesn't get much play is the ratio of male to female refugees.  58% men, 17% women and 25% children.  When you've got a worse than 2 to 1 ratio men to women that makes it even more challenging on top of everything else.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

The numbers included in here are probably correct for Germany as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/germany-on-the-brink.html?_r=0

And unfortunately the dilemma described is correct as well: Should what happened during the last year not be reversed (and I don't see that happening) then we're faced with the choice of accepting scewed gender ratios that spell violence or allow all those young men to bring along brides and family and thereby change the face of Germany forever. Without the people ever being given a choice whether they'd like that transformation to happen and without the parliament ever enacting a law to that effect. "Reckless humanitarianism" and "high-minded folly" indeed.

The problem I see is that healthy young men are fleeing a war zone leaving their women and children to fend for themselves. That's cowardly. American and Canadian men would never run and leave their women and children behind if their country was at war...they would stay and fight.

I read that it is exactly the opposite.  The refugee camps in Turkey and the countries like Jordan nearby are filled with wives and mothers and their children, who escaped to safety, while the husband and father are remaining in Syria to try to protect whatever they have remaining.  This is why it is hard to get some of these refugees to leave the UNHCR camps to travel to USA and Canada, they don't want to be too far from Syria for when they get to go home, and want to be reachable in case their husbands and fathers come looking for them.

Those families travelling to Europe are looking for a better situation, and possibly have english, education, training and / or money to get work and get ahead, if given a chance.

The young men fleeing Syria tend to be those that have just graduated -- they will be drafted into one army or another within weeks, so are fleeing ahead of that. (Others from other countries are economic migrants) These young Syrian men typically are not married, just avoiding being drafted to serve in an Army for a war they don't want.   And if you don't think Americans avoid being drafted,  well, I have an island or two near me that has American ex-draft dodgers living there to this day.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2016, 10:37:53 AM »
> This is why it is hard to get some of these refugees to leave the UNHCR camps to travel to USA and Canada,

Now that's a good one.
Many of them would happily leave for the US or Canada, unfortunately these countries refuse to take up any of them.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2016, 12:20:03 PM »
> This is why it is hard to get some of these refugees to leave the UNHCR camps to travel to USA and Canada,

Now that's a good one.
Many of them would happily leave for the US or Canada, unfortunately these countries refuse to take up any of them.

Your news is different from ours then. I recall seeing much reluctance to leave the area they know as home and come to a country without family, support, language, tradition, religion, food, or celebrations even close to what they were familiar with.
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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #198 on: February 21, 2016, 11:20:50 PM »
> I recall seeing much reluctance to leave the area they know as home and come to a country without family,
> support, language, tradition, religion, food, or celebrations even close to what they were familiar with.

Sure. That's why certain European states like Germany, Sweden and Austria are currently being flooded with refugees from that area. And more are expected to come this year. So much reluctance to leave.

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Re: Syrian Refugees
« Reply #199 on: February 22, 2016, 01:10:55 PM »
The problem I see is that healthy young men are fleeing a war zone leaving their women and children to fend for themselves. That's cowardly. American and Canadian men would never run and leave their women and children behind if their country was at war...they would stay and fight.

You think that country of birth inherently changes the actions a person will take?  Really?