Author Topic: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret  (Read 7996 times)

Mississippi Mudstache

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Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« on: September 21, 2015, 10:52:28 AM »
We talk a lot about our instances of badassity - bike-commuting, making cheaper meals, earning money on the side, trading in gas-guzzlers for compacts/hybrids/electric cars, etc. Some of the best decisions, however, are not necessarily the most financially optimal. I think it's important to appreciate the things that make you happy but aren't necessarily reducing your ETA to FIRE.

I'll start off. Last week, it rained pretty much nonstop from Tuesday-Friday. When the sun finally came out on Saturday we spent the whole day outside. That night, even though we had plenty of leftovers in the fridge and enough food in the pantry to last us until month's end, I sent my wife to the store to pick up bread, mozzarella, and pepperoni while I started a campfire in the yard so we could make campfire pizza (using a hobo pie iron). We basked in the glow of the campfire, cooked dinner, roasted marshmallows, relaxed in our hammocks, and enjoyed life. It was great.

ncornilsen

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 12:04:49 PM »
I earned enough money through college to pay for everything, but instead decided to borrom $12,000, so I could afford to race cars. I think I learned more about engineering while doing that then I did in class. None the less, I still had to pay that back, and it took 3 years, but I wouldn't be the same person I am now if I hadn't.

trailrated

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 12:24:44 PM »
I have a perfectly good 2010 honda hybrid with just over 100,000 miles on it. I bought a 1983 cj-7 jeep for $6,000 that I use to have fun in, off road, drive over medians, and get out of parking lots by driving over them. I absolutely love the thing and I think it is funny I have my dream car and it is worth less than my daily driver.

While it is not very mustachian, I have zero debt and stache 30% of my pay so I am pretty content. (although I know that is the lower end to some of you badasses on here.)

MsPeacock

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 12:26:29 PM »
I have a cleaning lady who comes weekly. Not every-other-week, not once a month. Weekly. I didn't have anyone coming to clean for several years due to being absolutely unable to afford it due to my divorce. The house being 'messy' (by my somewhat OCD can't stand clutter anxious standards) makes me really fall apart emotionally. I get upset about spending hours per week cleaning (single mom, really busy career, - so there is no one else really chipping in much in terms of cleaning, errands, needs of children, etc.) and then feel upset if I go out because I am worried about all the stuff I have to do at home. I get upset with myself for being upset about how not clean the house is. It was a no-win situation and it was not a happy situation.

A couple months back I started having someone come again on a weekly basis. Its great! Now the only major household cleaning I have to do is the laundry (clothing - she does the bedding and towels), which now feels manageable. It is expensive and I do worry about the cost and I wonder if I should go to every-other-week  - but for the time being I am holding on to the weekly cleaning.

Gone Fishing

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 12:32:15 PM »
I bought a small farm and signed up for a 70 mile round trip commute 5 days a week for what will be a total of 8 years next spring.  Cost me some money and hasn't been easy, but I don't regret it one bit.  I got a great head start on my "retire to" project!  Regrets include not maxing out tax deferred accounts and sitting on too much cash during the 2009-2015 recovery.

Uturn

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 12:32:50 PM »
HVAC in the garage.

I have a woodshop out there and spend more time there than inside the house. 

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 03:56:22 PM »
Quitting my job to stay home with the kids meant my wife will have to work about a year longer to FI but emotionally/psychologically it's smoothed out our life so much.

Silverado

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 05:37:35 PM »
HVAC in the garage.

I have a woodshop out there and spend more time there than inside the house.

Great topic, and this is an awesome response. Love it.

I'll go with the same only with a gas heater for winter comfy work. Came with the house, but use it. Only set to about 45, but that is enough.

matchewed

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 06:22:25 AM »
If I don't regret them then they weren't sub-optimal.

Regret is also a funny useless thing.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 07:28:10 AM »
HVAC in the garage.

I have a woodshop out there and spend more time there than inside the house.

Nice! I have never had an air-conditioned woodshop, so I'm definitely jealous. That would most definitely be a worthwhile expenditure, but it will have to wait until until we settle into a place we want to stay for more than a couple of years.

BTW- Is that a Veritas Bevel-Up Smoother in your avatar? I'm a vintage Stanley guy when it comes to bench planes, but almost all of my joinery planes are Veritas.

If I don't regret them then they weren't sub-optimal.

Regret is also a funny useless thing.

Haha, I knew some pedant would come in and take issue with the wording of my title, but I did it anyway and I don't regret it. Does that mean it was the optimal decision?

Tyson

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 08:25:02 AM »
Having a kid.  Certainly a less than optimal decision from a financial standpoint, but has brought more joy to our lives than I can say. 

matchewed

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 10:09:11 AM »


If I don't regret them then they weren't sub-optimal.

Regret is also a funny useless thing.

Haha, I knew some pedant would come in and take issue with the wording of my title, but I did it anyway and I don't regret it. Does that mean it was the optimal decision?
[/quote]

I've got no issue with your wording. :) Just expressing a view that "optimize everything" isn't the goal necessarily, and am agreeing that there are several things in life that we derive value from that don't need it.

grantmeaname

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 12:07:01 PM »
I'll start off. Last week, it rained pretty much nonstop from Tuesday-Friday. When the sun finally came out on Saturday we spent the whole day outside. That night, even though we had plenty of leftovers in the fridge and enough food in the pantry to last us until month's end, I sent my wife to the store to pick up bread, mozzarella, and pepperoni while I started a campfire in the yard so we could make campfire pizza (using a hobo pie iron). We basked in the glow of the campfire, cooked dinner, roasted marshmallows, relaxed in our hammocks, and enjoyed life. It was great.
This sounds perfectly optimal to me! I can't think of a single example of someone getting this much enjoyment and fulfilling time with loved ones out of ten measly bucks. Eating rice and lentils isn't the end, it's the means to get you to moments like this!

Uturn

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2015, 01:02:19 PM »


Nice! I have never had an air-conditioned woodshop, so I'm definitely jealous. That would most definitely be a worthwhile expenditure, but it will have to wait until until we settle into a place we want to stay for more than a couple of years.

BTW- Is that a Veritas Bevel-Up Smoother in your avatar? I'm a vintage Stanley guy when it comes to bench planes, but almost all of my joinery planes are Veritas.


Why yes it is.  I have a few LN and Veritas planes from back when I didn't know you could get good results for a whole lot less.  My scrub plane is a Stanley #5.  My neanderthal ways has lead to the selling of the tablesaw and power planer.  Looking for a deal on a #7 now.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2015, 03:01:47 PM »
I'll start off. Last week, it rained pretty much nonstop from Tuesday-Friday. When the sun finally came out on Saturday we spent the whole day outside. That night, even though we had plenty of leftovers in the fridge and enough food in the pantry to last us until month's end, I sent my wife to the store to pick up bread, mozzarella, and pepperoni while I started a campfire in the yard so we could make campfire pizza (using a hobo pie iron). We basked in the glow of the campfire, cooked dinner, roasted marshmallows, relaxed in our hammocks, and enjoyed life. It was great.
This sounds perfectly optimal to me! I can't think of a single example of someone getting this much enjoyment and fulfilling time with loved ones out of ten measly bucks. Eating rice and lentils isn't the end, it's the means to get you to moments like this!

I think I went a bit too far when I first discovered MMM, and there was a while (couple years, honestly) when I would have felt bad about going to the grocery store for non-essential items when we already had plenty of food to eat at home. I've slowly tried to scale back on the frugality and I'm finding I'm much happier when I don't constantly have a cost/benefit analysis running in the background of my mind. I'm sure my wife is relieved as well.

There are bigger examples of it as well. We just moved to a new rental last month. For the last year, we've lived near the beach (like, within a 2-minute walk) and we've really enjoyed it. Our family is growing this fall, so we needed a bigger place (not kidding here, we will be a family of 5 and we were living in a 2 bed, 1 bath previously). We could have looked farther from the beach and probably saved some on rent, but we chose to spend a little more and stay in the area, since we like it so much.

I have a few LN and Veritas planes from back when I didn't know you could get good results for a whole lot less.  My scrub plane is a Stanley #5.  My neanderthal ways has lead to the selling of the tablesaw and power planer.  Looking for a deal on a #7 now.

I sold my planer, table saw, bandsaw, and drill press last year. Kept the lathe. I just recently adopted a new planer (my Dad gave it to me, because he upgraded). I think a planer is about the most useful power tool if you plan to build furniture. Better than a table saw. Wish I still had the bandsaw, though...

I also sold a bunch of extra hand planes last year in the big tool purge. I had a couple of nice No. 7s (a Stanley and Millers Falls). Down to just one now. I used to fix up old planes and re-sell, but not enough time in the day since having kids.

justajane

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2015, 04:45:43 PM »
We bought a house with only 10% down and by my estimate probably overpaid for our house by 5K. My 2015 self wouldn't have done this, but I don't regret our choice. We love our house, plan too stay in it forever, and have kickass neighbors.

Drew664

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2015, 05:12:29 PM »
Bought a truck new off the lot. Can't say I'd do it again,  but I will drive that baby into the ground as I really enjoy everything it can do. If it makes it 20 years, I'd be happy.

david51

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2015, 05:51:54 PM »
Sub-optimal decision: was 700k in debt at one time

That I don't regret: bought 4 homes in California that have all tripled/quadrupled in value.  Fire'd 8 years ago. Wish I would have bought 40 homes.

brooklynguy

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2015, 06:44:27 PM »
Just expressing a view that "optimize everything" isn't the goal necessarily, and am agreeing that there are several things in life that we derive value from that don't need it.

I would express it differently -- "optimization" is a relative process, because it depends entirely on the desired goal.  An optimal decision is one that, among all available decision options, leads to the best possible outcome.  So the "optimality" of any given decision will, of course, depend on how you define the best possible outcome.  The overarching message of this website is that, within the total universe of all possible decision outcomes of all possible decisions to be made, there is substantial overlap (but not complete overlap!) between "maximization of wealth" and "maximization of happiness" (and "maximization of the planet's ecological health," to boot). 

Mud, your decision to purchase ingredients for a backyard campout instead of eating leftovers is an example of a decision that lies outside the area of overlap.  It probably furthered the goal of maximization of happiness but hindered the goal of maximization of wealth.  Keep in mind that the same is probably true of your decision to purchase food in the first place (instead of subsisting entirely on costless alternatives like free Costco samples and wild dandelions), or the decision you will one day make to voluntarily shut the spigot on the firehose of cash that is your job.  So it's no surprise that many of our choices will not be optimal from a wealth-maximization perspective, but I would say we should "optimize everything" towards a consciously and purposefully selected ultimate objective (and I'd say "maximization of happiness" is a pretty good one, while "maximization of wealth" is not).

Dicey

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2015, 08:46:56 PM »
In 12/1996 I borrowed $6,000.00 from my 401k to buy a $120k condo. I worked my ass off to repay the $6,000.00, which took me about nine months.

I hated the feeling that I couldn't leave my job unless/until it was paid off.

In 8/2001 I sold condo for $260k.

Paid $390k for my next place the same month. Sold it in 4/2013 for $600k.

Paid cash for current home in 2013.

Well, I guess I can finally say I don't regret the decision to borrow against the 401k. Yeah, I'm lying. I regret it a little, but I guess it worked out okay after all.

Astatine

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2015, 11:51:53 PM »
I have a cleaning lady who comes weekly. Not every-other-week, not once a month. Weekly. I didn't have anyone coming to clean for several years due to being absolutely unable to afford it due to my divorce. The house being 'messy' (by my somewhat OCD can't stand clutter anxious standards) makes me really fall apart emotionally. I get upset about spending hours per week cleaning (single mom, really busy career, - so there is no one else really chipping in much in terms of cleaning, errands, needs of children, etc.) and then feel upset if I go out because I am worried about all the stuff I have to do at home. I get upset with myself for being upset about how not clean the house is. It was a no-win situation and it was not a happy situation.

A couple months back I started having someone come again on a weekly basis. Its great! Now the only major household cleaning I have to do is the laundry (clothing - she does the bedding and towels), which now feels manageable. It is expensive and I do worry about the cost and I wonder if I should go to every-other-week  - but for the time being I am holding on to the weekly cleaning.

That makes sense. If you think about it as being a similar price to weekly therapy (or maybe cheaper? no idea how much either costs where you live) that may be a way of thinking about it. I have occasionally bought something or paid for something that objectively I really didn't need, but soothed a huge PTSD-like trigger or something similar. I tell myself it's cheaper than therapy (which I have done in the past, but I'm kind of done with it for now for long complicated reasons). Sanity and mental well-being are precious things and I prioritise both above all else.

Astatine

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2015, 12:03:23 AM »
I'll start off. Last week, it rained pretty much nonstop from Tuesday-Friday. When the sun finally came out on Saturday we spent the whole day outside. That night, even though we had plenty of leftovers in the fridge and enough food in the pantry to last us until month's end, I sent my wife to the store to pick up bread, mozzarella, and pepperoni while I started a campfire in the yard so we could make campfire pizza (using a hobo pie iron). We basked in the glow of the campfire, cooked dinner, roasted marshmallows, relaxed in our hammocks, and enjoyed life. It was great.
This sounds perfectly optimal to me! I can't think of a single example of someone getting this much enjoyment and fulfilling time with loved ones out of ten measly bucks. Eating rice and lentils isn't the end, it's the means to get you to moments like this!

I think I went a bit too far when I first discovered MMM, and there was a while (couple years, honestly) when I would have felt bad about going to the grocery store for non-essential items when we already had plenty of food to eat at home. I've slowly tried to scale back on the frugality and I'm finding I'm much happier when I don't constantly have a cost/benefit analysis running in the background of my mind. I'm sure my wife is relieved as well.

There are bigger examples of it as well. We just moved to a new rental last month. For the last year, we've lived near the beach (like, within a 2-minute walk) and we've really enjoyed it. Our family is growing this fall, so we needed a bigger place (not kidding here, we will be a family of 5 and we were living in a 2 bed, 1 bath previously). We could have looked farther from the beach and probably saved some on rent, but we chose to spend a little more and stay in the area, since we like it so much.

+1 Yep. I did this when my LTR ended and I was desparate to re-enter the housing market (renting is a shitty option in my city for the type of lifestyle I want - gardening, minor home improvements, pets). I went WELL overboard with frugality for that year before my ex bought me out of our joint property. I was unhealthily obsessed with saving money that year. I find it too easy to fall into the constant cost/benefit analysis in a really unhealthy way.

I think I've *finally* reached a reasonable equilibrium where we save about 50% of our post-tax income (er, except with the recent monster medical bills - but they could never have been planned and budgeted for), not counting superannuation contributions. But, I'm not nickel and diming myself any more.

My sub-optimal decisions recently have been going out for a meal 2 or 3 times per week. Things are a bit crappy for me at the moment (medical stuff that won't be done til March or April next year) and going out with DH brings me a lot of pleasure whilst I am quite restricted in what I can do. However, our home cooked meals are quite optimised for value for money, but that's all on autopilot now that DH is on board with finding the cheapest deals on food at our chosen shops.

Emilyngh

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2015, 05:52:20 AM »
Having my DH quit his well-paying job to SAH FT when our daughter was born, and now, although he's going back to work PT since she's in school, he's decided to enter a totally new field that he had no experience in prior to this past spring, that he only earns $10 an hour doing, and that never has a ton of potential for earning much.

I'm a college prof up for tenure this year.   If I don't get tenure and am thus out of a job in a year, we'll be kicking ourselves for the worst decision ever, but assuming I get tenure (which according to all indications, I should, but you just never know), it'll suddenly have become the best decision ever...

sleepyguy

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2015, 09:41:59 AM »
Sub-optimal financially I assume is the question.

For us it is/was 2 kids for sure... GF took 2 yrs off and was probably over $275k (pre-tax) right there, not counting child cost and such.

Still kids are great and would not have it any other way.

Another one for me specifically is/was not attending any form of school after High School... sure I get the typical thing from siblings and parents..."sleepguy learns so fast, could have become xyz (usually doctor or lawyer)... blah blah".  Don't care, life is great... family is happy and healthy, both our careers are fine and we've been pretty much financially sound since 25 or so.

Trudie

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2015, 10:11:52 AM »
I make "sub-optimal decisions", I'm sure, all the time.  I've paid for landscaping help (when my back and my overloaded brain just can't take it anymore).  I just paid $80 to a handyman to install a new post box (setting it in concrete, etcetera).  These are just a couple of examples.

We also love going to concerts.  Some would consider this "sub-optimal."  I dunno.  I'd rather see Hozier live than on youtube.  I guess I don't consider spending on unique experiences and travel "sub-optimal."  And even when we spend on these entertainment type things we don't totally throw caution to the wind with our spending.  I think it's important not to deprive yourself of unique experiences that you value.

Life requires continual optimization, and each time I write a check for something I think, "Is this something I can/want to do myself?"  Quite honestly, sometimes the answer is "no."  If I think there are opportunities for cost savings I tighten the screws a little more.  But, in the big picture we're very conscious of our spending habits.

Still, we aggressively save (45% of income) and are on a plan to retire when I am 50 and my DH is 59 1/2.  For a variety of reasons this is the right timeline for us.

I think that training your brain to recognize and consider economic alternatives is the key exercise here.  That way, throughout life, you will always have control over your finances.  Sometimes the alternatives are easy -- getting a book at the library instead of buying it, for instance.  But sometimes, you take a different road and buy tickets to a concert (because you tube videos aren't enough) or buy the plane ticket to Costa Rica because you don't just want to look at pictures in National Geographic.

FI40

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2015, 02:19:54 PM »
Did an MSc in Computer Science that I'm not currently using, so that was a high opportunity cost for no payoff (yet). I enjoyed it though and should get to use it later if I can start freelancing/contracting as some kind of programmer.

Also the decision to have our son. Losing a fair bit in lost wife's income...worth it though of course.

RosieTR

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2015, 09:07:47 PM »
1) Bought a puppy for $900. He's a great, beautiful dog and we likely could not have gotten a comparable rescue, but yeah-lots of cash for a pet!  Then again, the average cost of a normal birth is like $15,000 so he was less than 10% of having a kid. But really we just wanted a dog of that breed so we got one.
2) Bought a used 4Runner for no other purpose than to drive off road for hiking/peak bagging/camping (and to take said dog!). Before that, we took our Fit on a dirt road that supposedly was ok for passenger vehicles, and hit a rock wrong. A $5K transmission later meant clearance seemed like a reasonable thing to pay for, and the 4Runner cost less than another transmission would!
I'm sure there are more, but those are the big ticket ones that come to mind.

dess1313

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2015, 09:58:42 PM »
Decision preMMM to start SCUBA lessons and decision after MMM to continue!  It was a bucket list thing, and now its becoming a major hobby.  Not the cheapest sport out there but i very much enjoy it.  And i do plan on traveling with it which is something i will not sacrifice, but i will save and plan and pay cash up front for any of it.

Also in current decision process to buy new (yes gasp) mid sized SUV.  There are some things i just can not do in a little car, and i'm currently driving a 18yr old corolla, so i do feel i have put my time in, and its time for a trade up.

Kitsune

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2015, 09:33:59 AM »
We built a house instead of buying one, which, even if we owned the land, cost (best estimate) approximately 40K more. Zero regrets.

We live in a super open-concept house that's EXACTLY suited to our needs, lifestyle, family, and hobbies, located exactly where we wanted to live, with amazing amounts of non-tangible benefits (grandparents nearby for babysitting, cousins nearby as friends for the kids, ponds stocked with fish for dinner, gardening space, the works). Could we have done it cheaper in a house that wasn't so well-suited to us (and then done work ourselves to make it suit better)? Yeah, probably... but in the end, after 10 years, it'd be maybe a 10K difference, and I have ZERO regrets taking that hit.

choppingwood

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2015, 09:48:19 AM »
I drive an SUV.

I didn't buy a car until I was 29, and then drove super efficient small cars for thirty years. Last year I couldn't find a fuel-efficient car at a price I was willing to pay, so I bought a 2006 Hyundai Santa Fe.

I like everything about it. Turns out it doesn't use nearly as much fuel as the viewer reviews said. No doubt driving the speed limit helps. Biggest surprise: I can get in and out of the vehicle without any pain and can get things in and out of the car without bending over. (Those of a certain age will know what I am talking about.)


grantmeaname

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2015, 11:26:19 AM »
I can get in and out of the vehicle without any pain and can get things in and out of the car without bending over. (Those of a certain age will know what I am talking about.)
I don't suppose 23 is the age you had in mind. Joint pain is shitty for all ages tho - I know exactly what you mean. I've been combining trips up and down the stairs for a decade now.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2015, 11:53:18 AM »
Well, I don't know how rich or poor (or dead) I'll be 30 years from now, so you'll have to ask me about regret then...  so far I'm pretty satisfied with the decisions I've made, although most will turn out to be sub-optimal in hindsight.  In addition to the 'real time optimization' Brooklynguy talked about (balancing happiness, wealth, environmental impact, etc.) there is also optimization across a lifetime, balancing YOLO decisions when you are younger (where less wealth can buy a lifetime of priceless, formative experiences) vs. saving too much for your final years (when you might not be able to trade-off a much higher sum of your wealth for similar happiness).
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 12:42:33 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

honeybbq

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Re: Sub-optimal Decisions that You Don't Regret
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2015, 12:19:13 PM »
Bought the most expensive house on the street.

Usually I like to buy the cheapest.

But, it was the only one for sale, it checked most of the boxes for what we want, and there weren't any bidding wars (those in the Seattle area know that housing prices has gone up around 10% per year for the past 2 years and there are usually multiple all-cash offers for 100,000$ over asking price on every house).