Author Topic: So will anything happen to this offender?  (Read 11942 times)

caracarn

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So will anything happen to this offender?
« on: November 21, 2017, 11:01:39 AM »
I applaud and am excited to see the ongoing reckoning with men in power who abuse that position by taking advantage of those less powerful, usually women, by harassing or victimizing them in inappropriate ways.  Ways they in most cases clearly knew was wrong at the time.  The latest is Charlie Rose.  While I am surprised to some degree at who some of these men are, including someone like Charlie who I have respected as a journalist for a long time, my wife is not surprised at all.  She explains, I think rightfully, how men and women view this issue so very differently.  For women it is almost always much more obvious how pervasive this behavior was and is.  I pray that it will cause massive change.

However as I thought about this, it is hard not to note that our president publicly admitted to these same types of behavior before he was elected and while all these other people fall, he continues to sit unaffected.  So I wonder.  Will anything be done with him on this situation?  Should be be asked or forced to step down from office?  Do we need to wait for another election?  And more importantly will it impact if he wins again or not?  I think that will be one of the biggest indicators if this change that many of us hope for in acceptance of this type of behavior really happens.  If we yet again elect a man who on tape clearly said he did vile things to women and does so because of his power, the same things that Spacey, Rose, Moore and others stand accused of, what does that say?

I'm just curious what others think.  I for one did not vote for him the first time in large part because of his personal "locker room" excuses.  Yet somehow nearly 50% of my fellow citizens felt is did not matter enough to stop them from pulling the lever.  So I wonder, has anything really changed?  Or is one of the most powerful offices on the planet immune to behavior that clearly shows other positions are not?  One can certainly argue that the country knew about Kennedy's supposed indiscretions, Clinton's clearly shown behavior and said it did not matter in that office.  Is the Presidency immune to what is happening?  And if so will there be a reckoning for Trump in some sphere?  We've not yet seen someone who owns their empire, though Weinstein was close, being forced to give it up.

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 11:30:31 AM »
I don't know the answer to your question. But I regularly see in discussions around this general topic clear evidence of (usually male) people who don't think there's a problem. I've seen it VERY clearly on these forums, and I've restrained myself from posting specifically to those men "YOU are part of the problem". Because that wouldn't help.

I hope that we're moving towards a society that truly is better, but that will mean rethinking everything about what is "polite" or "appropriate". Because in Western culture, what's polite and appropriate even today is descended from a society built on the blatant oppression of women, and so inequality is baked into our culture and society.

caracarn

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 11:56:06 AM »
I agree that this is very ingrained.  I've been blessed to never have been around these types of individuals in any regular sense.  I was aware of guys I "knew" who acted in a way that I felt was inappropriate but I was never close enough to them to say anything directly.  It was discussions of a "friend who heard it from a friend who has a friend who" type of thing.  If the person relaying it to me indicated they thought what they were sharing was OK, I'd tell them it was not, but most often the friend relaying it had similar feelings to mine about the topic and we both felt the guy was a jerk.  It seems that by not having surrounded myself with these types of friends I likely have downplayed the pervasiveness of this thinking and is likely why the parade of men being accused is surprising to me, because I view it as rare.  I was never a drinker so I never went to bars, was not great at sports so not on a lot of teams or in locker rooms at the gym where I assume this is all more prevalent and not industries like the media or others that have a lot of women present (worked mainly in manufacturing and IT) so I suppose that would mean that a true predator, as these men are being called, would look for different spaces to ply their trade.  I'll keep doing my part to lessen it as I can. 

I do think the double standard that has been raised in various discussions about how men acting a certain way and a woman doing the same are very different will need to be modified before we make a real dent in the sexual behaviors.  Examples such as a man being direct and authoritative at work gets labeled as a strong leader but a woman doing that is often a b*$h drive this inequality. 

Tass

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 12:05:53 PM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:42:28 PM by Tass »

PoutineLover

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 12:12:45 PM »
As a woman, I can say that that type of behaviour is incredibly widespread and has affected almost every single woman I know. Just in my own personal experience, I have been catcalled and followed down the street, had my ass slapped as I walked down the street, received unsolicited videos of a classmate masturbating, and been sexually assaulted and I'm probably still forgetting most of the incidents. I am very glad to see that finally some men are being held to account for their actions, and I hope that this will spark a societal change in which men no longer feel entitled to women's bodies, but I'm not sure if that will happen as long as abusers continue to be supported and victims are blamed and their stories are doubted or downplayed.
No woman is surprised about these revelations, and it's about time that the decent men realized just how bad some men are, and how easily they get away with it. The election of Donald Trump, despite his actions, didn't surprise me that much, and I won't be surprised if he gets away with it and gets elected again. There seem to be far too many people who don't believe that sexually assaulting someone disqualifies you from office, and we see that still with so called christians excusing Roy Moore's behaviour. I wasn't old enough to be aware of the issues when Bill Clinton was president, but I think that in today's climate his actions would have been received differently.  All abusers should face consequences for their actions, and I hope that Trump gets held to account.

hoping2retire35

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 12:23:20 PM »
Curious what everyone thinks. Will all men behave more like gentlemen or just some of them? editI think eventually much of our culture will benefit from this, to the tune that many men will resist these activities, and hopefully women will be more likely to report it.

If men have aspirations of bettering themselves to the tune of being a politician, celebrity or some CEO or whatever they may be more inclined to not exhibit this behavior. However, if a young man thinks he chances of attaining a higher status in society are nil he will take his chances with harassing women on the chance one in 20? 100? will take up his 'offer'.

I would guess this difference in behavior to eventually resemble current class lines.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:25:29 PM by hoping2retire35 »

partgypsy

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 12:38:20 PM »
It seems this behavior is MORE prevalent in men in positions of power than not. Remember, someone like Weinstein got away with what he did for decades, same with Cosby, same with Trump. I think men in power will still do it. They may be less open about it and more selective, do with with women who are more vulnerable (such as being young, having a past that could be used against them, needing a job), so they are less likely to say anything.  Remember a huge number of people in Alabama are defending Moore, saying there is no "evidence" (i.e. 30 corroborated witnesses and a yearbook are apparently not evidence enough to these people). They are also saying innocent until proven guilty, even though the statute of limitations has passed. Color me skeptical.   

Eta, at least maybe the real outrageous stuff will be less likely to happen. As a 22 year old, my first real job I worked at an doctor's office. The head doctor among being a brilliant surgeon, was sexist. Pretty much the entire staff (except of course for some of the doctors and the managers) were females, and the rule was that if it was a day he was in the office working, you must wear a dress or skirt (no pants), because I guess he liked to look at his women employees. His secretary looked like a model and all she did was make him lunch and walk around, and the bathroom adjoining his office in addition to questionable wallpaper, had various sex joke objects, like boob mugs prominently displayed. I honestly didn't think much of it at the time, because that's just the way things were. This was in the early 90's.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:45:33 PM by partgypsy »

Just Joe

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 12:40:05 PM »
I don't expect anything to happen to Trump. I suspect that he and his in power represent alot of money in certain hands. Not suggesting anything illegal though that would not surprise me. I just mean that alot of deals being made with certain people b/c they are of the right political breed and have personal connections to the present power brokers. 

His team represents a cash cow, a revenue stream. Just like with all the other recent presidents. People will protect him. Unfortunately.

I think alot of regular guys will be doubly careful for a while.

hoping2retire35

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 12:40:44 PM »
I was talking more about harassment than assault.

Gin1984

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 01:13:18 PM »
I agree that this is very ingrained.  I've been blessed to never have been around these types of individuals in any regular sense.  I was aware of guys I "knew" who acted in a way that I felt was inappropriate but I was never close enough to them to say anything directly.  It was discussions of a "friend who heard it from a friend who has a friend who" type of thing.  If the person relaying it to me indicated they thought what they were sharing was OK, I'd tell them it was not, but most often the friend relaying it had similar feelings to mine about the topic and we both felt the guy was a jerk.  It seems that by not having surrounded myself with these types of friends I likely have downplayed the pervasiveness of this thinking and is likely why the parade of men being accused is surprising to me, because I view it as rare.  I was never a drinker so I never went to bars, was not great at sports so not on a lot of teams or in locker rooms at the gym where I assume this is all more prevalent and not industries like the media or others that have a lot of women present (worked mainly in manufacturing and IT) so I suppose that would mean that a true predator, as these men are being called, would look for different spaces to ply their trade.  I'll keep doing my part to lessen it as I can. 

I do think the double standard that has been raised in various discussions about how men acting a certain way and a woman doing the same are very different will need to be modified before we make a real dent in the sexual behaviors.  Examples such as a man being direct and authoritative at work gets labeled as a strong leader but a woman doing that is often a b*$h drive this inequality.
That is not accurate.  It likely happened right in front of you and you did not notice.  The idea that this happens only in certain fields, is not true and it harms women in other fields who have this done to them.  I can tell you as a fact that manufacturing and IT have a huge amount of sexual harassment mostly because it is predominantly male and when the lone (or few) woman comes in, she gets huge amount of backlash. 
There was a study done on college men in which they were asked if they would rape a woman if they could be sure they would not be punished, one out of three men said yes.  So please, don't sit there thinking the men you know, don't do this but statistics bare out that they do.

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 01:42:46 PM »
I think the situation with elected officials is a little different from other cases of harassment, because of the ongoing shift away from voting based on character to voting based on identity politics and policy. (Which is true in both parties--I just read that Sen. Menendez is favored to win his next election in New Jersey despite the fact that a jury deadlocked on his corruption and bribery trial. Which is even more specifically connected to his behavior in office...). So if a candidate with character problems wins an election, it probably says more about which issues/politics voters cared about than their moral judgments about him. I don't expect a lot to change there.

I do think we might be looking at a shift in the way corporations, especially ones that heavily depend on public opinion like the media, look at harassment. Corporations will get serious about harassment when it starts to cost them real money--more than whatever settlements they were already paying out. We might actually be at that point.

Sibley

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 01:50:24 PM »
Curious what everyone thinks. Will all men behave more like gentlemen or just some of them? editI think eventually much of our culture will benefit from this, to the tune that many men will resist these activities, and hopefully women will be more likely to report it.

If men have aspirations of bettering themselves to the tune of being a politician, celebrity or some CEO or whatever they may be more inclined to not exhibit this behavior. However, if a young man thinks he chances of attaining a higher status in society are nil he will take his chances with harassing women on the chance one in 20? 100? will take up his 'offer'.

I would guess this difference in behavior to eventually resemble current class lines.

Thoughts?

I'm NOT attacking you, but wanted to point out something. You ask if more men will behave like "gentlemen". This is an example of as a society, we need to rethink everything. Men should not be divided into gentlemen vs. not. Men are men. Women are women. There should be no differentiation into gentlemen or ladies. Because they are rooted in an inherently sexist and repressive ideal.

caracarn

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 02:04:03 PM »
I agree that this is very ingrained.  I've been blessed to never have been around these types of individuals in any regular sense.  I was aware of guys I "knew" who acted in a way that I felt was inappropriate but I was never close enough to them to say anything directly.  It was discussions of a "friend who heard it from a friend who has a friend who" type of thing.  If the person relaying it to me indicated they thought what they were sharing was OK, I'd tell them it was not, but most often the friend relaying it had similar feelings to mine about the topic and we both felt the guy was a jerk.  It seems that by not having surrounded myself with these types of friends I likely have downplayed the pervasiveness of this thinking and is likely why the parade of men being accused is surprising to me, because I view it as rare.  I was never a drinker so I never went to bars, was not great at sports so not on a lot of teams or in locker rooms at the gym where I assume this is all more prevalent and not industries like the media or others that have a lot of women present (worked mainly in manufacturing and IT) so I suppose that would mean that a true predator, as these men are being called, would look for different spaces to ply their trade.  I'll keep doing my part to lessen it as I can. 

I do think the double standard that has been raised in various discussions about how men acting a certain way and a woman doing the same are very different will need to be modified before we make a real dent in the sexual behaviors.  Examples such as a man being direct and authoritative at work gets labeled as a strong leader but a woman doing that is often a b*$h drive this inequality.
That is not accurate.  It likely happened right in front of you and you did not notice.  The idea that this happens only in certain fields, is not true and it harms women in other fields who have this done to them.  I can tell you as a fact that manufacturing and IT have a huge amount of sexual harassment mostly because it is predominantly male and when the lone (or few) woman comes in, she gets huge amount of backlash. 
There was a study done on college men in which they were asked if they would rape a woman if they could be sure they would not be punished, one out of three men said yes.  So please, don't sit there thinking the men you know, don't do this but statistics bare out that they do.
I was less than clear about what I meant.  I certainly was aware of issues at various workplaces and manufacturing was certainly bad.  In the statement you highlighted I still meant people I developed close friendships with, which were a small handful of people.  I did not imply manufacturing or IT were zones free of this problem.  I've certainly been following all the issue in Silicon Valley that have made the news lately.  Still you are correct that in even that small circle there is not way to be 100% certain.

Tass

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 02:30:02 PM »
I think the situation with elected officials is a little different from other cases of harassment, because of the ongoing shift away from voting based on character to voting based on identity politics and policy. (Which is true in both parties--I just read that Sen. Menendez is favored to win his next election in New Jersey despite the fact that a jury deadlocked on his corruption and bribery trial. Which is even more specifically connected to his behavior in office...). So if a candidate with character problems wins an election, it probably says more about which issues/politics voters cared about than their moral judgments about him. I don't expect a lot to change there.

I would regard this as the root of the problem in several ways. Not the root of the harassment/assault problem, but the root of the people who commit those crimes managing to be popular and get elected anyway.

Politics have a curious way of getting intertwined with our identities. Once you've decided to identify with one box, and support everyone in the same box and oppose everyone outside it, the game is lost.

Slinky

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 02:52:04 PM »
I agree that this is very ingrained.  I've been blessed to never have been around these types of individuals in any regular sense.  I was aware of guys I "knew" who acted in a way that I felt was inappropriate but I was never close enough to them to say anything directly.  It was discussions of a "friend who heard it from a friend who has a friend who" type of thing.  If the person relaying it to me indicated they thought what they were sharing was OK, I'd tell them it was not, but most often the friend relaying it had similar feelings to mine about the topic and we both felt the guy was a jerk.  It seems that by not having surrounded myself with these types of friends I likely have downplayed the pervasiveness of this thinking and is likely why the parade of men being accused is surprising to me, because I view it as rare.  I was never a drinker so I never went to bars, was not great at sports so not on a lot of teams or in locker rooms at the gym where I assume this is all more prevalent and not industries like the media or others that have a lot of women present (worked mainly in manufacturing and IT) so I suppose that would mean that a true predator, as these men are being called, would look for different spaces to ply their trade.  I'll keep doing my part to lessen it as I can. 

I do think the double standard that has been raised in various discussions about how men acting a certain way and a woman doing the same are very different will need to be modified before we make a real dent in the sexual behaviors.  Examples such as a man being direct and authoritative at work gets labeled as a strong leader but a woman doing that is often a b*$h drive this inequality.
That is not accurate.  It likely happened right in front of you and you did not notice.  The idea that this happens only in certain fields, is not true and it harms women in other fields who have this done to them.  I can tell you as a fact that manufacturing and IT have a huge amount of sexual harassment mostly because it is predominantly male and when the lone (or few) woman comes in, she gets huge amount of backlash. 
There was a study done on college men in which they were asked if they would rape a woman if they could be sure they would not be punished, one out of three men said yes.  So please, don't sit there thinking the men you know, don't do this but statistics bare out that they do.
I was less than clear about what I meant.  I certainly was aware of issues at various workplaces and manufacturing was certainly bad.  In the statement you highlighted I still meant people I developed close friendships with, which were a small handful of people.  I did not imply manufacturing or IT were zones free of this problem.  I've certainly been following all the issue in Silicon Valley that have made the news lately.  Still you are correct that in even that small circle there is not way to be 100% certain.

You said you worked in manufacturing and IT. You admitted that you saw issues at workplaces and that manufacturing was certainly bad. And yet you view it as a rare occurrence? It doesn't matter who your friends are. You saw it happening. It isn't rare. Also, you probably didn't see half of what happened. Most people don't.

caracarn

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 06:00:36 AM »
OK, I was making a point of why what my experience was made me think it was rare.  I thought I clearly indicated that I now understand that to be incorrect.  It seems that you are pushing on me because you feel I still hold the view that it is rare.  I do not. 

Gin1984

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 09:17:51 PM »
OK, I was making a point of why what my experience was made me think it was rare.  I thought I clearly indicated that I now understand that to be incorrect.  It seems that you are pushing on me because you feel I still hold the view that it is rare.  I do not.
I am pushing you because you seem to want to get it, but there are hurdles because you have not had to be aware of this.  So basically, I'm pushing because you seem like a good guy.  :)

Dancin'Dog

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 09:35:42 PM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.

Very good point. 

Linea_Norway

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2017, 12:23:31 AM »
It would help if the leadership in a company commented clearly that this type of behaviour is not acceptable and that breaking the rules will have consequences. Having more women in company leadership would help get this into place.
A female president would probably be beneficial for your country in this regard. Would there be any good female candidate for the next election (without the e-mail history that Clinton had)?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:33:25 AM by Linda_Norway »

kayvent

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2017, 01:23:03 AM »
I think the reason why Trump hasn’t been torched is because neither party has the moral authority to do so. There are three sitting congressmen/senators accused of sexual assault or rampant corruption. The party they belong to refuse to expel them from the party or the house. (There is a picture of Al Franken sexually assaulitng a girl and USA senators don’t want him punished !?) There is also Ray Moore who is running for a seat.

If one party defends sexual assaulters while attacking the other, to the public it appears the party is exclusively out for political gain.

Some people on the left are attempting to cleanse the left by acknowledging that Bill Clinton should have been resigned. I think if “the left” by-and-large desecrated the memory of JFK (who raped one woman and continually sexually abused some while president) and Bill Clinton (sexual assault, one rape, and two rape allegations), then when they attack Trump the public will perceive they are genuine. (This is the odd thing about sociology. The attack can be true but the attacker can be deflated if the receiver doubts the intentions of the attacker.)

Yet somehow nearly 50% of my fellow citizens felt is did not matter enough to stop them from pulling the lever.

Just want to clarify something. Only eligible adults can vote. Turn out was less than 56 percent. Trump got 47%. So 26%. Of that, a large consortium voted for him because they correctly felt Clinton was the greater of two evils. Not because they particularly liked him.  There were also a few million people who went to the ballot box yet did not vote for president (I think more people would have abstained from voting at the top of the ticket is we were more aware of this option culturally. If I was an American, I would have voted “up and down the ticket my conscience” and not voted for any presidential candidate.)

A female president probably be beneficial for your country in this regard. Would there be any good female candidate for the next election (without the e-mail history that Clinton had)?

Rice?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:37:54 AM by kayvent »

former player

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2017, 02:38:16 AM »
Trump, with the help of the far right and Russia, has by now so successfully spread the "fake news" meme that I doubt whether anything will be able to get rid of him, even incontrovertible evidence of widespread corruption and treason while in office.  Anything he did before becoming President has already been discounted by almost all Republicans in Congress and by a significant proportion of the public.

As to the problem of sexism and sexual harassment, we need to teach our sons that they have no rights over women's bodies and our daughters that they have the absolute right to say "no".  We also need to start teaching children at a very early age (5 seems about right to me) that 1) they don't touch other people without permission, 2) they have the right not to be touched and to say "no" to it, and 3) anyone who says touching them as a secret is a Bad Person who is Wrong and they need to tell someone they trust about it immediately.

Malloy

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2017, 09:03:51 AM »
You heard it here first(ish): the next Republican president and first female president of the US will be Nikki Haley.  I don't agree with her, and I think she's a mediocre intellect, but I am amazed at her political instincts.  She's managed to make herself look good even while working for Trump.  Plus, she insulates republicans against racism and sexism charges.  It's too bad-because she's nowhere near as smart and as qualified as Hillary Clinton-but she sure as hell is better than most of what the republicans can put on offer.  So, if this is what we need to move forward, then maybe it's a good thing.  Once the country realizes that having a woman as CIC won't mean that she'll bomb North Korea during that time of the month (really-could anyone be more emotionally unstable than Trump, anyway?), then it will be a sea change for how we view women.  And a whole generation of kids will grow up with the most-revered living president being African-American, with Hillary Clinton being an inspiration and having softened everyone up for having a woman at the top of the ticket, and-maybe-having republicans put a woman of color in the White House.

Slowly, change will come.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2017, 10:43:04 AM »
Just chiming in to say manufacturing is the worst.   I imagine Hooters girls get harassed less and put into less uncomfortable conversations/situations.

I cringe when I hear stories from females.

surfhb

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2017, 11:11:45 AM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.

Very good point.

Id extend that many more percentage points.   The way the GOP has redesigned voting districts in their favor, Id say the percentage of people who voted for this asshole is around 30-40%.   

Futhermore, the bottom line is that this problem exist in the way we raise our children.     There was a segment on 60 mins where a woman asked her daughter what she thought of trumps pussy grabby words and the teenager's reply was basically..."boys will be boys"

This also go for the way we raised our girls.    We need to teach them to grow a pair of balls and speak the fuck up and throw a few punches.    Enough with the salad eatin girly attitudes
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 11:31:33 AM by surfhb »

Tass

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2017, 11:37:44 AM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.

Very good point.

Id extend that many more percentage points.   The way the GOP has redesigned voting districts in their favor, Id say the percentage of people who voted for this asshole is around 30-40%.   

Kayvent did this math for us up above. 47% of people who voted for President voted for Trump - straight popular vote, ignoring districts and states - and nationwide turnout was 56%, so about 26% of Americans stuck us in this mess.

This also go for the way we raised our girls.    We need to teach them to grow a pair of balls and speak the fuck up and throw a few punches.    Enough with the salad eatin girly attitudes

Speaking as a girl with actual training in throwing punches, it's at least as important for it to be safe for them to do so, socially speaking. If every woman knew how to physically defend herself, but doing so made her a bitch or could get her career sidelined by powerful men, the problem wouldn't be solved.

Knowing how to punch isn't necessary to make a fuss about most of these incidents - if defending yourself was all it took, any woman can stamp on someone's feet, throw a knee to the groin, and scream. The problem comes with the social pressure to stay silent and accept the status quo.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 11:42:51 AM by Tass »

surfhb

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2017, 01:43:43 PM »
I didn't mean throwing punches in a physical way

partgypsy

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2017, 01:49:15 PM »
The only reason things are changing was, that before when a woman made a complaint, it meant she was the one who got punished. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Before now, even if a woman knew how to "throw a punch" she often wasn't going to do it because of consequences.  Of course, it's only the women accusing "liberal" or Hollywood people who are commended. If you listen to the POTUS and his lackeys, the rest are lying bitches.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 02:07:47 PM »


partgypsy

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2017, 02:25:56 PM »
Of course, now I'm really curious to know what Matt Lauer did (not like it's any of my business).

Tass

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 02:38:50 PM »
I didn't mean throwing punches in a physical way

Oh. Heh. I mean, most of my point still applies - that the backlash for defending oneself prevents many women from doing so - but clearly I misinterpreted you.

Chesleygirl

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2017, 03:56:39 PM »
I've never heard of Charlie Rose.

I just barely knew who Matt Lauer was. I don't watch much t.v.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2017, 04:14:19 PM »
I've seen enough of human nature to know that power attracts the corrupt. As long as there are situations with a power imbalance, there will be sickos who use it to harm or degrade others, simply because they can. There's a vicious, sadistic streak in the human species that simply hasn't bred out yet and probably never will. So what we're seeing is really just a flash in the pan, and after the few scapegoats are driven out into the desert to perish, I expect there will be an inevitable "backlash" that sets civil rights back over and over again. Result: same stuff, different shovel.

FIRE Artist

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2017, 10:37:58 AM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.

Very good point.

Id extend that many more percentage points.   The way the GOP has redesigned voting districts in their favor, Id say the percentage of people who voted for this asshole is around 30-40%.   

Kayvent did this math for us up above. 47% of people who voted for President voted for Trump - straight popular vote, ignoring districts and states - and nationwide turnout was 56%, so about 26% of Americans stuck us in this mess.  By my math, this means 70% of Americans are responsible for sticking you with this mess

This also go for the way we raised our girls.    We need to teach them to grow a pair of balls and speak the fuck up and throw a few punches.    Enough with the salad eatin girly attitudes

Speaking as a girl with actual training in throwing punches, it's at least as important for it to be safe for them to do so, socially speaking. If every woman knew how to physically defend herself, but doing so made her a bitch or could get her career sidelined by powerful men, the problem wouldn't be solved.

Knowing how to punch isn't necessary to make a fuss about most of these incidents - if defending yourself was all it took, any woman can stamp on someone's feet, throw a knee to the groin, and scream. The problem comes with the social pressure to stay silent and accept the status quo.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:16 AM »
70%?

Yes, you do have to blame those that "chose" to not vote. 

Tass

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2017, 11:54:30 AM »
Fair point. I was mostly responding to OP's "nearly 50% of my fellow citizens felt is did not matter enough to stop them from pulling the lever," which isn't quite accurate. About 26% of Americans voted for Trump. 44% didn't vote at all, whether through indifference or inability. Their negligence is frustrating, but it's still somehow less infuriating.

With the electoral college it's also sort of hard to argue that every nonvoter gave up an equal opportunity to make a difference, also. Those who didn't vote in California would have made a smaller difference than those who didn't vote in Michigan, where the margin of victory was 0.3%.

kayvent

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2017, 05:15:57 PM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton. At some point, you have to take a principaled stand and not vote for either of them. You give a disingenuous regime credibility by voting but you denounce it by spoiling your vote or purposely and vocally not voting.

Ben Shapiro, who was heavily connected with Never Trump, was one of the 44% that didn’t vote for a presidential candidate because he felt neither was worthy of his vote. Ted Cruz encouraged people, at the RNC convention of all places, to vote up and down the ticket their conscious (an implicit suggestion to not vote for Trump but to vote for local Republicans and ballot measures). Cenk Uygur voted a third party instead of for Clinton. Mitt Romney went on CNN and encouraged people not to support Trump (albeit this was in the primaries) iterated reasons not to support Trump.

I don’t think any of those people are “responsible for sticking Americans with this mess”. Neither do I blame more ordinary people who hated both choices.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:14:48 PM by kayvent »

kayvent

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 09:12:10 PM »
Gotta give the Dems props. They are asking Conyers to step down and some Dems are saying they want Franken to as well.

nora

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »
Pretty much the entire staff (except of course for some of the doctors and the managers) were females
I wonder why you have said 'of course' here?

nora

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 10:28:53 PM »
At this point, those who chose to support the President despite the allegations against him and his own admitted behavior have already made their peace with that aspect. I don't think we can really rehash that argument against him. I've actually seen some pretty reasonable arguments that his election was a necessary prerequisite for the current climate of no longer tolerating this behavior - many people understood for the first time that there are no consequences unless we collectively create the consequences.

Also, 50% of people didn't vote for him. Only about 50% of people voted at all, and just under 50% of THEM voted for him.

Very good point.

  We need to teach them to grow a pair of balls and speak the fuck up and throw a few punches.    Enough with the salad eatin girly attitudes

This statement is just inappropriate. 'Grow a pair of balls' is archaic and akin to 'Run like a girl'.both sexist. It sounds like the victims are being blamed here. A person's gender does not determine whether they eat salad or not.

nora

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 10:35:15 PM »
I am in healthcare in Australia where these attitudes and behaviours are rampant. The hierachy and dependence on impressing superiors to advance in the career create serious problems for some groups. Women are one of them. The language we use is important as well. 'Man up'. 'Grow a pair of balls'. 'Women know everything' and on and on. I have hundreds of anecdotes of my own and my colleagues. Patients also feel the need to make inappropriate comments every day. I am hopeful it is coming to an end. There is a case in the Australian media at the moment.

former player

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 08:51:51 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

Malloy

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 09:41:57 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

Yeah. Citation needed that Clinton is worse than Trump. I mean, that's like saying that overcooked meat (Clinton) is bad and eating shit (Trump) is bad, so how is a voter to choose what's for dinner?

 

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 10:16:36 AM »
I voted for Gary Johnson. Which is like eating properly cooked tofu.

Not particularly exciting. Not particularly disgusting.

sol

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2017, 10:55:34 AM »
I voted for Gary Johnson. Which is like eating properly cooked tofu.

Not particularly exciting. Not particularly disgusting.

I disagree, Johnson is pretty disgusting.  He's a strong supporter of Citizens United.  He thinks violent felons should be allowed to own machine guns.  He wants to abolish the minimum wage, and child labor laws.  He also wants totally open borders with no immigration restrictions, unrestricted abortions, and no drug laws of any kind.  There's something for everyone to hate in there, but he's certainly not bland or moderate in any way.  He's wacky on every topic.

hoping2retire35

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 11:02:10 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

What information revealed by Russia/Wikileaks was false?

sol

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2017, 11:09:18 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

What information revealed by Russia/Wikileaks was false?

Pizzagate!

kayvent

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2017, 06:13:03 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

What information revealed by Russia/Wikileaks was false?

Pizzagate!

Alex Jones isn’t Russian.

Lagom

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2017, 09:35:57 PM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

What information revealed by Russia/Wikileaks was false?

Pizzagate!

Alex Jones isn’t Russian.

What demonstrably true things about Clinton make her obviously just as bad as Trump?

former player

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Re: So will anything happen to this offender?
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2017, 02:07:12 AM »
I don’t think you can blame the non-voters. Voters were given a horrible choice, Trump, and an even worst choice, Clinton.
A lot of the "worst choice" information about Clinton was Russian propaganda, small things (compared to Trump's iniquities) blown up out of all proportion.

What information revealed by Russia/Wikileaks was false?
What wasn't?  You really think "lock her up" was based on truth?  No, I'm not going to link to their propaganda for you: look it up.  But if you haven't been consuming real news for the last couple of years I don't suppose you are going to start now.