Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 844214 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8300 on: August 18, 2019, 04:46:14 PM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8301 on: August 18, 2019, 05:23:36 PM »
...the destruction of the American democratic system and its constitution....
Fortunately, that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

As the saying goes, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are very good at overplaying their hands when they get in power, thus tending to cause a movement back to the other party.

I don't think this is some rule of nature or politics. There's no reason why one party can't have a hold on power for 70+ years at a time. Some countries legitimately run this way and our country has long periods of time by one party rule. There's a chance the GOP are making themselves unelectable for the next 20 years because of this administration

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8302 on: August 18, 2019, 05:23:38 PM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.
Sort of like how restrained and well behaved the Rs were during Obama’s tenure?

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8303 on: August 18, 2019, 05:58:26 PM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.
Sort of like how restrained and well behaved the Rs were during Obama’s tenure?

R@63 is in Canada, so he'll be referring to parliamentary government. In this system, the head of government is whoever commands the confidence of the House, ie can count on a majority for day-to-day business. This is typically the leader of the party with the most seats in the House. Note that this leader can be removed by their own party at any time.

Having a separate Executive which is not responsible to the Legislative branch is more a feature of 18th century monarchical governments, or Third World countries. The US just happened to write its constitution in the 18th century, and thus simply replaced the born-to-rule monarch-for-life with one elected for a four year term. By the time the Confederacy came to write its constitution, it had the experience of 19th century constitutional monarchies to look at, and so all members of its Cabinet had to come from its legislature, even if the head (the President) didn't.

Likewise Canada and Australia at their federation had the experience of the US to look at, and so developed upper houses which were of the states or provinces. Countries learn from other countries' experiments. The US system is just still stuck in the 18th century.

Anyway, if your head of government has to go into the legislature every day and explain themselves, and if they are a bad poll or two away from being replaced by their own party, or a by-election or two away from losing government, this tends to encourage some restraint. When parliamentary governments have a huge majority, the leader tends to behave in a more "presidential" fashion. Thus R@63's comment that minority governments tend to be better-behaved. Trump wouldn't last 5 minutes as a Prime Minister; we know because similar people have come to parliament in various places and not done well, like Clive Palmer, who attended less than a quarter of parliamentary sittings and was tossed out after one term, having accomplished exactly zero of his parliamentary objectives. Clinton would have had trouble too, I should think.

Back on topic, a global economic crash is of greater concern than the USA's domestic dramas, because - and I know this will come as a shock to some of you here - there is a world outside the United States. Obviously, this thread is for discussing old Drumpf and being terribly frightened of the old duffer. Nonetheless, what happens in the world affects the USA. Human rights are very important, as is rule of law and so on. But as the experience of the 1930s shows us, human rights and rule of law tend not to prosper when the economy is collapsing.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8304 on: August 18, 2019, 06:59:23 PM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.
Sort of like how restrained and well behaved the Rs were during Obama’s tenure?

Kyle Shuant has it exactly.  The Conservatives under Harper were not too terrible while they had minorities.  They got a lot more right-wing when they finally got a majority, and lost big in the next election.  Trudeau has a majority.  And he is having problems.  We have an election coming up, it will be interesting.

Um, @Kyle Schuant, remember the survey that found about half the people on the forums are women?   I'm one of them - she not he.  You are not the first to make that mistake, is it something about my writing style?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8305 on: August 18, 2019, 10:27:12 PM »
Well, given the parliamentary restraint to polls the tenure of Boris Johnson should be interesting.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8306 on: August 19, 2019, 01:23:16 AM »
remember the survey that found about half the people on the forums are women?   I'm one of them - she not he.  You are not the first to make that mistake, is it something about my writing style?
My apologies.

I believe there is software out there that tries to predict gender based on writing style, I don't know how well it works, but I presume it's based on something most of us do unconsciously.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8307 on: August 19, 2019, 07:01:44 AM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.
Sort of like how restrained and well behaved the Rs were during Obama’s tenure?

R@63 is in Canada, so he'll be referring to parliamentary government. In this system, the head of government is whoever commands the confidence of the House, ie can count on a majority for day-to-day business. This is typically the leader of the party with the most seats in the House. Note that this leader can be removed by their own party at any time[/.

Thanks for the correction. I got lost in the moment of who is from where. You are right about the big differences in how the governments are structured.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8308 on: August 19, 2019, 09:01:02 AM »
remember the survey that found about half the people on the forums are women?   I'm one of them - she not he.  You are not the first to make that mistake, is it something about my writing style?
My apologies.

I believe there is software out there that tries to predict gender based on writing style, I don't know how well it works, but I presume it's based on something most of us do unconsciously.

Not a problem, just setting the record straight.   ;-)

I may be a bit more sensitive to people assuming the holder of a gender-neutral name like mind is male after reading Invisible Women: exposing data bias in a world designed for men.

Returning you all to the main topic after this side detour.

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8309 on: August 19, 2019, 03:42:54 PM »
...the destruction of the American democratic system and its constitution....
Fortunately, that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

As the saying goes, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are very good at overplaying their hands when they get in power, thus tending to cause a movement back to the other party.

Spoil my fun, will you?

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8310 on: August 19, 2019, 03:59:07 PM »
...the destruction of the American democratic system and its constitution....
Fortunately, that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

As the saying goes, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are very good at overplaying their hands when they get in power, thus tending to cause a movement back to the other party.

Spoil my fun, will you?
What could be more originalist than writing a new constitution?

But, I did appreciate Kyle's phrasing of the context of the US constitution. It was much more eloquently put than similar things I've thought and said over the years.

rocketpj

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8311 on: August 19, 2019, 11:20:29 PM »
I've found our minority governments tend to be much better behaved than majorities, because they know if they aggravate everyone else too much, they are gone.
Sort of like how restrained and well behaved the Rs were during Obama’s tenure?

Kyle Shuant has it exactly.  The Conservatives under Harper were not too terrible while they had minorities.  They got a lot more right-wing when they finally got a majority, and lost big in the next election.  Trudeau has a majority.  And he is having problems.  We have an election coming up, it will be interesting.

@Kyle Schuant

Most of the large scale Canadian government things that we are proud of came from a Minority parliament - with the Liberals relying on the NDP to keep them in power.  The Canada Health Act, Unemployment Insurance, CPP.  All good things.

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8312 on: August 20, 2019, 03:18:51 AM »
@Kyle Schuant, Campbell Newman's election loss comes to mind as to what happens when a party holds 90% of the seats in parliament.

Discounting the fact that Queenslanders are a weird bunch, nonetheless it was an interesting case study.

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scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8314 on: August 20, 2019, 07:38:15 PM »
Indeed.   So far Trump has:

1.   Spent record budget deficits to claim that he is boosting the economy.
2.   Started a trade war to claim that he is boosting the economy.
3.   Reduced taxes on the wealthy and corporations to ...   yep, claim that he is boosting the economy.
And finally
4.   Told the electorate the economy and the stock market will collapse if he is not re-elected.

Sounds like M. Pavlovitz has recognized his method of operating.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8315 on: August 20, 2019, 07:40:22 PM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8316 on: August 20, 2019, 07:43:15 PM »
Is Svalbard for sale?  Norway could make some quick cash.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8317 on: August 21, 2019, 12:29:02 AM »
Is Svalbard for sale?  Norway could make some quick cash.
I think you just picked the country least likely to ever need some quick cash.

BussoV6

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8318 on: August 21, 2019, 01:01:59 AM »
Is Svalbard for sale?  Norway could make some quick cash.
I think you just picked the country least likely to ever need some quick cash.

Maybe Trump should offer to buy a basketcase country. Zimbabwe perhaps? Oh wait, that's an African shithole...

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8320 on: August 21, 2019, 01:58:44 AM »
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/there-is-no-normal/
Well-written.  Definitely leaves the feeling that Trump is a symptom not a cause, an accelerant not a brake.

Zamboni

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8321 on: August 21, 2019, 02:56:26 AM »
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/there-is-no-normal/
Well-written.  Definitely leaves the feeling that Trump is a symptom not a cause, an accelerant not a brake.

I enjoyed this link as well. Thank you for posting it!

My favorite recent book about the ongoing devolution of life-as-we-know-it in the USA is a work of fiction by Drew Magary: The Postmortal.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8322 on: August 21, 2019, 08:18:07 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8323 on: August 21, 2019, 08:21:08 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

Lol.

#walkaway is astroturf.

https://arcdigital.media/pro-trump-russian-linked-twitter-accounts-are-posing-as-ex-democrats-in-new-astroturfed-movement-20359c1906d3
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 08:22:43 AM by Kris »

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8324 on: August 21, 2019, 08:36:50 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8325 on: August 21, 2019, 08:42:54 AM »
lol Versatile you've been missed.

God I want to know if he's real. Or simply lives under a bridge.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8326 on: August 21, 2019, 08:44:11 AM »
I couldn't make this up if I tried. 

Cool Friend

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8327 on: August 21, 2019, 08:44:18 AM »
He's not, he's a troll account.  He's using the same fallacious talking points you can see in social media everywhere.  Don't engage.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8328 on: August 21, 2019, 08:48:04 AM »
He's not, he's a troll account.  He's using the same fallacious talking points you can see in social media everywhere.  Don't engage.

I like him. He tends to show up and offer a literal illustration of the things I say about Trump supporters, like clockwork.

Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8329 on: August 21, 2019, 08:58:00 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8330 on: August 21, 2019, 09:05:05 AM »
People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.
There are people worse on that than Trump? WOW! I didn't know!

I wonder how out of dozens (or hundreds) of candidates, those two options remained to choose from.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8331 on: August 21, 2019, 09:09:44 AM »

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

The converse of this argument of course is that many Trump detractors do not support him precisely because of the things he says and the actions he has taken since assuming office.  Currently (and persistently) 52-55% of voters disapprove of his job as President; a statistically significant majority. It's also a false choice to say that the alternative is to turn over the country to ... people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.  There are literally dozens of well known Rs that I would select over DJT if given the opportunity, and most of the #neverTrump camp (which includes many life-long Republicans) will tell you that they have higher opinions of the job performance of past Presidents over our current one.  That isn't dogmatic.  It is a specific response to this executive, his rhetoric and policies.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8332 on: August 21, 2019, 09:25:36 AM »
Meanwhile, Trump cancelled his visit to Denmark because (wait for it....  wait for it.....)  ....  They were not interested in discussing selling Greenland to the United States. Seriously. Even Fox News reported on it.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-cancels-visit-denmark-pm-greenland

So tired of winning.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8333 on: August 21, 2019, 09:27:41 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

It's not something I do very often. I mean, sure, maybe in private to my husband. But in general I avoid name-calling. I certainly don't do it to individuals.

But you know what? This Greenland thing is idiotic. And to not see that is idiotic. So, sorry, I'm not above pointing out that the groupthink of Trump supporters that would make them blind to this shows a pattern of idiotic behavior characteristic of that group.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:36:29 AM by Kris »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8334 on: August 21, 2019, 09:41:04 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Let's stay on point. I didn't respond to Kris because she hates Trump or thinks him canceling his trip to Denmark is wrong. I truly don't care, just as I don't care all of you hate him too. Hate away, and vote your conscience next year.

I responded to her because whether she realizes it or not, she, and like many others, are alienating many people with her arrogance and dismissiveness. Notice she has not addressed her poor behavior, and chose to blame the Russians for the Walkaway campaign. Interestingly, if you watch the walkaway videos, they amusingly start out by declaring they are not a Russian bot. Real Americans with real experiences. Go to Youtube and see if you can spot the Russians.

Anyway, I am not here to discuss Trump per se, but if I thought we could have a decent conversation I would happily discuss some of your questions but look at the other responses to my post. Would there be a point? These people don't care that Kris is acting horribly, they only care that I don't hate Trump. Now ask yourself why anyone would be attracted to their message and vitriol?


Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8335 on: August 21, 2019, 09:48:03 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

It's not something I do very often. I mean, sure, maybe in private to my husband. But in general I avoid name-calling. I certainly don't do it to individuals.

But you know what? This Greenland thing is idiotic. And to not see that is idiotic. So, sorry, I'm not above pointing out that the groupthink of Trump supporters that would make them blind to this is shows a pattern of idiotic behavior characteristic of that group.

Ya, the things Trump does are really dumb. And as someone who can look at the facts and come to that seemingly obvious conclusion it definitely feels like the people who disagree are dumb too. But your term groupthink is important here because intelligent people are susceptible to groupthink too.

And of course Versatile's whole sanctimonious post is nonsense save for the one basic point that name calling is bad. The idea that someone is walking towards Trump because they can't stand the divisive language? Really? Maybe some people have walked away from politics in general but if you're walking towards Trump, you have some other reasons that you're not being entirely honest about. Like the article you posted said (good read btw) many of the accounts joining in (the ones who weren't bots) were clearly Trump supporters and/or republicans all along, they weren't walking away from Democrats because of Maxine Waters.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8336 on: August 21, 2019, 09:49:33 AM »
Meanwhile:
-ICE raids are continuing unabated. A friend recently reported on raids in Morgantown, WV. The community is pretty on edge with that.
-Trump is appointing Pendley to BLM, who has long publicly advocated for selling off all federal lands. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-cancels-visit-denmark-pm-greenland
-Trump accusing Jewish Democrats of being disloyal
-Deficit is headed to $1 trillion, sounds like time for more tax cuts.
-Administration continues squashing science that does not fit the agenda (see also climate change, gun violence (a long-standing GOP push since the 1990s on that one), etc). The half hour call with head of NRA this week led to Trump regurgitating NRA talking points.
- Trump pushes to add Russia to the G7
- Trump continues to attempt to push back auto pollution rules... that even automakers don't want rolled back. This seems to be red meat for the rolling-coal crowd.
- Trump laying conspiracy groundwork for future economic recession. I'm sure somehow it will be blamed on Clinton instead of the long term effects of suppressed fed interest rates and trade wars.

And that's just the short list. Greenland is stupid idiocy, but there is a pile of other new and ongoing bad shit that should be infuriating regardless of GOP/Democrat party affiliation.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8337 on: August 21, 2019, 09:58:53 AM »

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

The converse of this argument of course is that many Trump detractors do not support him precisely because of the things he says and the actions he has taken since assuming office.  Currently (and persistently) 52-55% of voters disapprove of his job as President; a statistically significant majority. It's also a false choice to say that the alternative is to turn over the country to ... people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.  There are literally dozens of well known Rs that I would select over DJT if given the opportunity, and most of the #neverTrump camp (which includes many life-long Republicans) will tell you that they have higher opinions of the job performance of past Presidents over our current one.  That isn't dogmatic.  It is a specific response to this executive, his rhetoric and policies.

You have to take into account perceptions and all of the platforms of the Democrat contenders. All of the viable ones have let the fringe elements of their party dictate their stances. Do you remember all of them raising their hands when asked if they supported granting illegal immigrants healthcare? Open borders?

Now add to this mix vocal people like Kris who openly call normal people who have problems with these stances stupid and you are begging Trump to be re-elected. Let me be clear, this is not about how great Trump is, but about how poorly the Democrats have mounted a defense. They have had years to accomplish this task and their best bet is Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren?

There are so many people that want a better selection than Trump, but my god the Dems have to offer that choice. Never Trumpers will vote in anybody but the rest of the country that isn't so locked into their hatred are going to vote their best interests. Period.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8338 on: August 21, 2019, 10:00:00 AM »

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

The converse of this argument of course is that many Trump detractors do not support him precisely because of the things he says and the actions he has taken since assuming office.  Currently (and persistently) 52-55% of voters disapprove of his job as President; a statistically significant majority. It's also a false choice to say that the alternative is to turn over the country to ... people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.  There are literally dozens of well known Rs that I would select over DJT if given the opportunity, and most of the #neverTrump camp (which includes many life-long Republicans) will tell you that they have higher opinions of the job performance of past Presidents over our current one.  That isn't dogmatic.  It is a specific response to this executive, his rhetoric and policies.

You have to take into account perceptions and all of the platforms of the Democrat contenders. All of the viable ones have let the fringe elements of their party dictate their stances. Do you remember all of them raising their hands when asked if they supported granting illegal immigrants healthcare? Open borders?

Now add to this mix vocal people like Kris who openly call normal people who have problems with these stances stupid and you are begging Trump to be re-elected. Let me be clear, this is not about how great Trump is, but about how poorly the Democrats have mounted a defense. They have had years to accomplish this task and their best bet is Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren?

There are so many people that want a better selection than Trump, but my god the Dems have to offer that choice. Never Trumpers will vote in anybody but the rest of the country that isn't so locked into their hatred are going to vote their best interests. Period.

I don't remember any significant support of "open borders" -- please elaborate on your assertion.

Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8339 on: August 21, 2019, 10:02:15 AM »
Interestingly, if you watch the walkaway videos, they amusingly start out by declaring they are not a Russian bot. Real Americans with real experiences. Go to Youtube and see if you can spot the Russians.

I guess you didn't read the article?

https://arcdigital.media/pro-trump-russian-linked-twitter-accounts-are-posing-as-ex-democrats-in-new-astroturfed-movement-20359c1906d3

Quote
*Even after explicitly stating that not all #WalkAway tweets were sent by bots, people taking part in the “WalkAway Movement” will still claim that this article called them all bots. This strawman is used as a defense every single time I track a bot-pushed hashtag. So let me state clearly for the record: This article is not implying that all of the people tweeting under this hashtag are bots.

So are you arguing that walk away was not pushed by Russian operatives or just that some of the participants were real people?

As for the real people, they can still lie:

Quote
Across time, conspiracy theory-related hashtags—including #QAnon, #QArmy, #Q, #TheGreatAwakening, and #DeepState—all featured prominently in #WalkAway hashtag clouds. Pro-Trump hashtags, like #MAGA and #Trump, were also among the most consistent and common themes—another giveaway that this movement of self-declared “former Democrats” was actually a creation of Trump supporters posing as ex-Democratic voters.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:06:05 AM by Dabnasty »

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8340 on: August 21, 2019, 10:07:43 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

It's not something I do very often. I mean, sure, maybe in private to my husband. But in general I avoid name-calling. I certainly don't do it to individuals.

But you know what? This Greenland thing is idiotic. And to not see that is idiotic. So, sorry, I'm not above pointing out that the groupthink of Trump supporters that would make them blind to this shows a pattern of idiotic behavior characteristic of that group.

Bullshit. You do it all of the time. At least here in the forums.

If you want proof I can provide.

You are very condescending and when cornered you just dismiss away your poor behavior. You are harming the very platform that allows you to vent. It's O.K. to vent, but the personal insults are not acceptable.

Laserjet3051

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8341 on: August 21, 2019, 10:13:41 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

Thank you for eloquently and convincingly stating exactly what I was thinking when I first read Kris' post. You hit the nail right on the head with this comment and your follow ups.  I dont enjoy getting into political squabbles online but somebody needs to point out the obvious here, thank you.

Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8342 on: August 21, 2019, 10:13:51 AM »
Meanwhile:
-ICE raids are continuing unabated. A friend recently reported on raids in Morgantown, WV. The community is pretty on edge with that.
-Trump is appointing Pendley to BLM, who has long publicly advocated for selling off all federal lands. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-cancels-visit-denmark-pm-greenland
-Trump accusing Jewish Democrats of being disloyal
-Deficit is headed to $1 trillion, sounds like time for more tax cuts.
-Administration continues squashing science that does not fit the agenda (see also climate change, gun violence (a long-standing GOP push since the 1990s on that one), etc). The half hour call with head of NRA this week led to Trump regurgitating NRA talking points.
- Trump pushes to add Russia to the G7
- Trump continues to attempt to push back auto pollution rules... that even automakers don't want rolled back. This seems to be red meat for the rolling-coal crowd.
- Trump laying conspiracy groundwork for future economic recession. I'm sure somehow it will be blamed on Clinton instead of the long term effects of suppressed fed interest rates and trade wars.

And that's just the short list. Greenland is stupid idiocy, but there is a pile of other new and ongoing bad shit that should be infuriating regardless of GOP/Democrat party affiliation.

Quoting so the actual problems going on right now aren't drowned out by angry foam.

If we do see an economic downturn before the election, my guess is that he will be able to convince much of his base of whatever nonsense conspiracy he comes up, probably won't even have to try that hard. But I also don't think it will be enough to save him. Lots of voters never look closely enough to care about reasons, only outcomes matter.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:15:23 AM by Dabnasty »

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8343 on: August 21, 2019, 10:15:10 AM »

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

The converse of this argument of course is that many Trump detractors do not support him precisely because of the things he says and the actions he has taken since assuming office.  Currently (and persistently) 52-55% of voters disapprove of his job as President; a statistically significant majority. It's also a false choice to say that the alternative is to turn over the country to ... people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.  There are literally dozens of well known Rs that I would select over DJT if given the opportunity, and most of the #neverTrump camp (which includes many life-long Republicans) will tell you that they have higher opinions of the job performance of past Presidents over our current one.  That isn't dogmatic.  It is a specific response to this executive, his rhetoric and policies.

You have to take into account perceptions and all of the platforms of the Democrat contenders. All of the viable ones have let the fringe elements of their party dictate their stances. Do you remember all of them raising their hands when asked if they supported granting illegal immigrants healthcare? Open borders?

Now add to this mix vocal people like Kris who openly call normal people who have problems with these stances stupid and you are begging Trump to be re-elected. Let me be clear, this is not about how great Trump is, but about how poorly the Democrats have mounted a defense. They have had years to accomplish this task and their best bet is Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren?

There are so many people that want a better selection than Trump, but my god the Dems have to offer that choice. Never Trumpers will vote in anybody but the rest of the country that isn't so locked into their hatred are going to vote their best interests. Period.

I don't remember any significant support of "open borders" -- please elaborate on your assertion.

Let's talk about perceptions. If we as a nation provided healthcare to anybody that illegally entered our country would that be an incentive or a disincentive to come over? We both know the answer.

We can parse technicalities or we can deal with reality and what real people actually do.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8344 on: August 21, 2019, 10:16:49 AM »

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

The converse of this argument of course is that many Trump detractors do not support him precisely because of the things he says and the actions he has taken since assuming office.  Currently (and persistently) 52-55% of voters disapprove of his job as President; a statistically significant majority. It's also a false choice to say that the alternative is to turn over the country to ... people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions.  There are literally dozens of well known Rs that I would select over DJT if given the opportunity, and most of the #neverTrump camp (which includes many life-long Republicans) will tell you that they have higher opinions of the job performance of past Presidents over our current one.  That isn't dogmatic.  It is a specific response to this executive, his rhetoric and policies.

You have to take into account perceptions and all of the platforms of the Democrat contenders. All of the viable ones have let the fringe elements of their party dictate their stances. Do you remember all of them raising their hands when asked if they supported granting illegal immigrants healthcare? Open borders?

Now add to this mix vocal people like Kris who openly call normal people who have problems with these stances stupid and you are begging Trump to be re-elected. Let me be clear, this is not about how great Trump is, but about how poorly the Democrats have mounted a defense. They have had years to accomplish this task and their best bet is Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren?

There are so many people that want a better selection than Trump, but my god the Dems have to offer that choice. Never Trumpers will vote in anybody but the rest of the country that isn't so locked into their hatred are going to vote their best interests. Period.

I don't remember any significant support of "open borders" -- please elaborate on your assertion.

Let's talk about perceptions. If we as a nation provided healthcare to anybody that illegally entered our country would that be an incentive or a disincentive to come over? We both know the answer.

We can parse technicalities or we can deal with reality and what real people actually do.

"Do you remember all of them raising their hands when asked if they supported granting illegal immigrants healthcare? Open borders? "

Source or GTFO.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8345 on: August 21, 2019, 10:20:45 AM »
I have not heard of a single political candidate of any importance from either party support open borders.

As for providing health care, you are going to have to be a lot more specific.  It has been a legal requirement for hospitals to provide urgent medical care to everyone regardless of their ability to pay.  This has been true for decades under both Democratic and Republican rule.  It's also an obligation under international law to provide medical services to detainees, regardless of their guilt or innocence. Whether we should extend medical coverage including checkups and vaccinations regardless of status is a much more narrow question that not even everyone in the Democratic party supports.

Regarding the latter, it should be noted that several dozen countries provide basic health services without charge to the patient, and in many cases without any requirement of citizenship.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8346 on: August 21, 2019, 10:29:44 AM »
Back to greenland: notice how it's taking up all the air? I wonder whats being hidden this time. Most large ridiculous stories have an actual more serious issue getting drowned out. Anything big recently?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8347 on: August 21, 2019, 10:32:44 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

It's not something I do very often. I mean, sure, maybe in private to my husband. But in general I avoid name-calling. I certainly don't do it to individuals.

But you know what? This Greenland thing is idiotic. And to not see that is idiotic. So, sorry, I'm not above pointing out that the groupthink of Trump supporters that would make them blind to this shows a pattern of idiotic behavior characteristic of that group.

Bullshit. You do it all of the time. At least here in the forums.

If you want proof I can provide.

You are very condescending and when cornered you just dismiss away your poor behavior. You are harming the very platform that allows you to vent. It's O.K. to vent, but the personal insults are not acceptable.

If you can find them, I encourage you to report them to the mods so they can chastise or ban me.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8348 on: August 21, 2019, 10:34:56 AM »
Apparently, Trump is now the "King of Israel."  Discuss.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8349 on: August 21, 2019, 10:39:22 AM »
Trump just canceled a meeting with the Danish PM because she said Greenland isn’t for sale.

Hey, Trump supporters: you are idiots.


Your arrogance is astounding. That you feel you have the right to openly denigrate millions of your fellow Americans and probably a fair percentage of Mustachians is incredible in its entitlement.

Let me inform you of a little secret that to which you seem to be oblivious: People support Trump not because of the dumb things he says but because the alternative is to turn over the country to intolerant and dogmatic people like you, people incapable of any sort of balance in their opinions. Your attitude along with many others will be a primary driver for a Trump victory in 2020. You need to take ownership of that when it happens. My bet though is that you will double-down on your prejudice. Prove me wrong.

And again, we are back to community guidelines in these forums. What do you guys hope to accomplish when statements like that are made? How many converts do you get when you openly call others stupid? This misguided moral righteousness will never draw someone to your side; you will never shame someone into believing what you believe, at least anything lasting.

Don't believe me? Check out the #Walkaway videos for some examples. This intolerance is suffocating the Democratic party.

What examples of Trump's tolerance can you offer? Sincere question.

Can you offer video of him welcoming people who might not vote for him? Can you offer video of him saying he isn't bothered by people who disagree with his positions on abortion or gay marriage? Can you offer a statement in which he insists on seating a newly elected legislator who might disagree with him--someone like Doug Jones--before an important vote is taken?

Examples of all of the above are available online from previous Presidents of both parties.

Good point. Versatile's complaint is rather disingenuous considering how bad this kind of attitude can be coming from the other side, Trump himself in particular.

But at the same time I agree that calling Trump supporters idiots is harmful. Calling someone an idiot is counterproductive when you want to change their mind.

It's not something I do very often. I mean, sure, maybe in private to my husband. But in general I avoid name-calling. I certainly don't do it to individuals.

But you know what? This Greenland thing is idiotic. And to not see that is idiotic. So, sorry, I'm not above pointing out that the groupthink of Trump supporters that would make them blind to this shows a pattern of idiotic behavior characteristic of that group.

Bullshit. You do it all of the time. At least here in the forums.

If you want proof I can provide.

You are very condescending and when cornered you just dismiss away your poor behavior. You are harming the very platform that allows you to vent. It's O.K. to vent, but the personal insults are not acceptable.

If you can find them, I encourage you to report them to the mods so they can chastise or ban me.

I don't want you banned, I want you to be civil. Your voice matters just as mine does or a Trump supporter. I guarantee you if we sat across from each other we would find many things to agree upon. Neither of us is evil or a monster.

And I want you to argue in good faith. As apparently do many other people. You unwillingness to do so is why so many here speculate you are a troll.