Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 843813 times)

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8100 on: July 31, 2019, 01:39:00 AM »
I would take racism and sexism over socialism. 

I think that perfectly encapsulates your thoughts on the matter - you are comfortable with living in a society that discriminates over the majority as long as you are promised to be in the minority 'winning' group.  I don't think that is a popular opinion among modern Americans, but there certainly are vocal supporters of this outdated ideology bigotry that have sprung up during the Trump presidency, which fits in perfectly with this thread.  Thanks for pointing it out.
Fixed that for you.

Although I suspect the real problem is that RofG doesn't understand what is meant by "socialism", either generally or in context, and has been conditioned for years by his personal circles and media consumption to treat it as a state of being which is worse even than being black or female.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8101 on: July 31, 2019, 06:04:06 AM »
I would take racism and sexism over socialism. 

I think that perfectly encapsulates your thoughts on the matter - you are comfortable with living in a society that discriminates over the majority as long as you are promised to be in the minority 'winning' group.  I don't think that is a popular opinion among modern Americans, but there certainly are vocal supporters of this outdated ideology bigotry that have sprung up during the Trump presidency, which fits in perfectly with this thread.  Thanks for pointing it out.
Fixed that for you.

Although I suspect the real problem is that RofG doesn't understand what is meant by "socialism", either generally or in context, and has been conditioned for years by his personal circles and media consumption to treat it as a state of being which is worse even than being black or female.

+1
 
Sadly the smear campaign by Repubs, has been going on for decades. Have any Dem Presidents turned America into a socialist country? Nope! Doesn't matter though. It's rinse and repeat every election. Racism is real. Sexism is real. The Dems turning America into a socialist haven is a red herring.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8102 on: July 31, 2019, 07:34:26 AM »

Sadly the smear campaign by Repubs, has been going on for decades. Have any Dem Presidents turned America into a socialist country? Nope! Doesn't matter though. It's rinse and repeat every election. Racism is real. Sexism is real. The Dems turning America into a socialist haven is a red herring.

I mean... to be fair... social security was created under FDR and Medicare/Medicaid came into being under LBJ - both democrats. Both programs have been wildly popular among their recipients for decades.  The common argument from fiscal conservatives and the broader GOP is that they cost too much (lately the term 'bankrupt/cy' is thrown around a lot), but that argument is largely baseless, straightforward to adjust (though not politically) and more a function of what happens when you cut revenue (cut taxes and the relative cost of a program goes up.  Raise taxes and it goes down.  It's basic math).

No mainstream candidate - not even Bernie - is proposing anything near what total socialist countries would consider the norm.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8103 on: July 31, 2019, 10:37:56 AM »

Sadly the smear campaign by Repubs, has been going on for decades. Have any Dem Presidents turned America into a socialist country? Nope! Doesn't matter though. It's rinse and repeat every election. Racism is real. Sexism is real. The Dems turning America into a socialist haven is a red herring.

I mean... to be fair... social security was created under FDR and Medicare/Medicaid came into being under LBJ - both democrats. Both programs have been wildly popular among their recipients for decades.  The common argument from fiscal conservatives and the broader GOP is that they cost too much (lately the term 'bankrupt/cy' is thrown around a lot), but that argument is largely baseless, straightforward to adjust (though not politically) and more a function of what happens when you cut revenue (cut taxes and the relative cost of a program goes up.  Raise taxes and it goes down.  It's basic math).

No mainstream candidate - not even Bernie - is proposing anything near what total socialist countries would consider the norm.

I know I (and lots of you) are bored by those repeating repititions, but what Bernie is talking about is less than what was Standard in 70s Europe for example.
Europe has driven to the economically right side - a lot - and still many of those "socialism" throwers believe it would be the end of the world if the US moves so far to the left as Europe is now.
Which again just shows you how far right the US is.

btw. a lot of that "Socialism" is just stuff from the Human Rights Declaration and similar UN documents.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8104 on: July 31, 2019, 01:28:45 PM »
I think you are underestimating the shockwaves from LBJ's expansion of the welfare state (yes, Medicaid was part of that, but so were a lot of programs directed toward low-income people) and his concurrent sign-off of the Civil Rights Legislation. The growth of modern conservatism, from Goldwater through Reagan and on to Gingrich and McConnell came as a backlash to LBJ and FDR.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8105 on: July 31, 2019, 01:45:26 PM »
I think you are underestimating the shockwaves from LBJ's expansion of the welfare state (yes, Medicaid was part of that, but so were a lot of programs directed toward low-income people) and his concurrent sign-off of the Civil Rights Legislation. The growth of modern conservatism, from Goldwater through Reagan and on to Gingrich and McConnell came as a backlash to LBJ and FDR.
And to LBJ's credit, he signed those laws knowing the political repercussions. He knew the CRA would push Dixiecrats to the GOP. The historical record is clear that he was flawed in a lot of ways and wanted to delay the CRA, but he did do it eyes wide open.

Now, if only we could get to that same space with impeachment (other than the obvious Moscow Mitch roadblock)...

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8106 on: July 31, 2019, 02:11:11 PM »
I think you are underestimating the shockwaves from LBJ's expansion of the welfare state (yes, Medicaid was part of that, but so were a lot of programs directed toward low-income people) and his concurrent sign-off of the Civil Rights Legislation. The growth of modern conservatism, from Goldwater through Reagan and on to Gingrich and McConnell came as a backlash to LBJ and FDR.

I agree that one can trace 'modern conservatism' to opposition of social programs.  Even the term "welfare state' emerged as a derroguatory term from the right against these (and other) programs. Oddly, one rarely hears of retired white people collecting their SS checks as being part of the "welfare state" ("I paid into it, it's my money!"); typically that moniker is reserved for poorer people of color.

Regardless, my broader point is that yes, democrats passed the more socialist policies that's now embedded in our society, and contrary to decades of fear-mongering claims they haven't bankrupted us.  Now we're hearing the howling about how "medicare for all" is socialism which will destroy the very fabric of our nation and bankrupt us forever. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8107 on: July 31, 2019, 02:15:50 PM »
I think you are underestimating the shockwaves from LBJ's expansion of the welfare state (yes, Medicaid was part of that, but so were a lot of programs directed toward low-income people) and his concurrent sign-off of the Civil Rights Legislation. The growth of modern conservatism, from Goldwater through Reagan and on to Gingrich and McConnell came as a backlash to LBJ and FDR.

I agree that one can trace 'modern conservatism' to opposition of social programs.  Even the term "welfare state' emerged as a derroguatory term from the right against these (and other) programs. Oddly, one rarely hears of retired white people collecting their SS checks as being part of the "welfare state" ("I paid into it, it's my money!"); typically that moniker is reserved for poorer people of color.

Regardless, my broader point is that yes, democrats passed the more socialist policies that's now embedded in our society, and contrary to decades of fear-mongering claims they haven't bankrupted us.  Now we're hearing the howling about how "medicare for all" is socialism which will destroy the very fabric of our nation and bankrupt us forever.
I'm reminded of the early Tea Party rallies where people were holding says saying to keep the government out of their medicaid and social security. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8108 on: July 31, 2019, 02:18:28 PM »

I'm reminded of the early Tea Party rallies where people were holding says saying to keep the government out of their medicaid and social security. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

I remember very clearly when the Tea Party claimed to not to be republican or democrat, but a "coalition of [white, older] voters".  Yeah, that political neutrality certainly didn't last.


partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8109 on: July 31, 2019, 03:32:54 PM »
I think Trump is racist and sexist ...
I would still vote for Trump

Do read your own words before you post?

There's no "but" after saying someone is racist and sexist.

You're making me so weak.

I would take racism and sexism over socialism.  I would take ineptitude over socialism.

Just give me a fiscally responsible moderate democrat and I would vote for them in a heartbeat over Trump.

But, this isn't really the choice is it? It's the choice between an unreasonable candidate, and an reasonable one (i.e. a person who is able to reason). It's the choice between a unqualified candidate and a qualified one. It's the choice between a self-serving, indebted to a Foreign power candidate, and a non-compromised, non-corrupt candidate.
Those breaks come BEFORE what flavor of candidate you choose. They are like, the minimum standards. Trump doesn't meet any of them. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 05:52:41 AM by partgypsy »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8110 on: August 01, 2019, 12:27:25 AM »
Ok, so if you are going to bring up an article likening the USA to Venezuela then I think it is appropriate to look at how the socialist programs there have led to the current economic disaster.

In Venezuela the inflation recently has reached some 130,000%

While I won't lay all the blame on the socialist programs there, a large portion can be attributed to that.


Would I vote for a racist deplorable president over someone who would lead us down a Venezuelan path?  Hell yeah.  I wouldn't be happy or proud of it but I would do it for the long term health of the country.

Right now none of the programs really seem like they would put us on that path but buying votes by promoting things like UBI, loan forgiveness, reparations, medicare for all is a start.   What happens is a cascade, where the economic output falls and then more social programs must be offered to buy more votes.

I can't remember the name, but I think a far right republican once said "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."  Probably it was some rich white American male or something.

There is no way of politely saying it: talking about Venezuela as though it's the logical endpoint of social democracy is an incredibly stupid argument. It ignores an incredible amount of very obvious things (Venezuela's utter reliance on a single export, the steady erosion of civil institutions begun under Chavez and continued under Maduro, the repeated efforts at unseating Chavez in the past which have produced an instinctive distrust of developed-world countries, the total lack of independence of the central bank, the fact that Venezuela's inflation is vastly more severe than every single case on record) and simply leaps straight to "universal healthcare is left of the US; so is Venezuela; therefore universal healthcare will burn the country down".

That is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly moronic, and the people who make that argument would have no problem recognising it if it went the other way. If I declared that the introduction of higher college fees in Ireland was wrong because "we don't want to end up like Mogadishu", nobody would take it seriously, and rightly so. But for some stupid reason, "we can't do that because we'll turn into Venezuela" gets parroted by people who pretend it's a legitimate point rather than complete balls.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8111 on: August 01, 2019, 07:44:39 AM »
Someone had given an example of elections in the USA vs Venezuela so I was not the first to make a comparison here.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8112 on: August 01, 2019, 08:06:52 AM »
Ok, so if you are going to bring up an article likening the USA to Venezuela then I think it is appropriate to look at how the socialist programs there have led to the current economic disaster.

In Venezuela the inflation recently has reached some 130,000%

While I won't lay all the blame on the socialist programs there, a large portion can be attributed to that.


Would I vote for a racist deplorable president over someone who would lead us down a Venezuelan path?  Hell yeah.  I wouldn't be happy or proud of it but I would do it for the long term health of the country.

Right now none of the programs really seem like they would put us on that path but buying votes by promoting things like UBI, loan forgiveness, reparations, medicare for all is a start.   What happens is a cascade, where the economic output falls and then more social programs must be offered to buy more votes.

I can't remember the name, but I think a far right republican once said "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."  Probably it was some rich white American male or something.

There is no way of politely saying it: talking about Venezuela as though it's the logical endpoint of social democracy is an incredibly stupid argument. It ignores an incredible amount of very obvious things (Venezuela's utter reliance on a single export, the steady erosion of civil institutions begun under Chavez and continued under Maduro, the repeated efforts at unseating Chavez in the past which have produced an instinctive distrust of developed-world countries, the total lack of independence of the central bank, the fact that Venezuela's inflation is vastly more severe than every single case on record) and simply leaps straight to "universal healthcare is left of the US; so is Venezuela; therefore universal healthcare will burn the country down".

That is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly moronic, and the people who make that argument would have no problem recognising it if it went the other way. If I declared that the introduction of higher college fees in Ireland was wrong because "we don't want to end up like Mogadishu", nobody would take it seriously, and rightly so. But for some stupid reason, "we can't do that because we'll turn into Venezuela" gets parroted by people who pretend it's a legitimate point rather than complete balls.

This is a pretty good list, except for the inflation. The Venezuelan hyper-inflation is a consequence of those other things, and it could--again a lot of things would have to be different, as we are currently the world's reserve currency--become a consequence of poor fiscal management in our country.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8113 on: August 01, 2019, 09:39:57 AM »
Someone had given an example of elections in the USA vs Venezuela so I was not the first to make a comparison here.

Someone referenced an article describing the democratic process in North Carolina as deeply damaged and comparable to Venezuela. That's a debatable proposition, but not a ridiculous one on its face; democracy in NC is being actively assaulted.

You, and you specifically, decided to imply as heavily as possible that America would be facing a choice between Trump and Chavez/Maduro 2.0. That is an argument that has absolutely no basis in reality.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8114 on: August 01, 2019, 09:44:29 AM »
Regarding hyperinflation: I suspect it's very, very unlikely in the States, coming close to impossible. Venezuelan-scale, I suspect, may literally never happen again: it would take too perfect a confluence of factors.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8115 on: August 01, 2019, 10:32:38 AM »
The problem and I guess you guys just won't see it, is that we don't need to have Venezuela type of inflation to get serious problems with the US economy.   Even a return to the inflation in the 1970s would wreck our economy.

This stuff can cascade much faster than most realize.   People are worried about the 1.5 trillion in student loans but the state pension funds are far greater a problem if they do not get their expected 8% return.

I am not saying that any of the current candidates are so socialist oriented that they will lead us down the path of ruin and I probably will actually vote for one of them over Trump.  I am just saying that if I had to make a choice between a true socialist that I really felt would start us on the path of ruin or choose a racist/misogynist candidate that I felt would do less overall harm (mostly because they are inept and controllable...if you give Trump a pat on the back and shiny object, he will count it as winning and go play golf), I would have to choose the latter.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8116 on: August 01, 2019, 10:50:44 AM »
The problem and I guess you guys just won't see it, is that we don't need to have Venezuela type of inflation to get serious problems with the US economy.   Even a return to the inflation in the 1970s would wreck our economy.

This stuff can cascade much faster than most realize.   People are worried about the 1.5 trillion in student loans but the state pension funds are far greater a problem if they do not get their expected 8% return.

I am not saying that any of the current candidates are so socialist oriented that they will lead us down the path of ruin and I probably will actually vote for one of them over Trump.  I am just saying that if I had to make a choice between a true socialist that I really felt would start us on the path of ruin or choose a racist/misogynist candidate that I felt would do less overall harm (mostly because they are inept and controllable...if you give Trump a pat on the back and shiny object, he will count it as winning and go play golf), I would have to choose the latter.

If there was any chance of a true socialist running, much less winning, then that could be a discussion. But since there isn’t, this is just a straw man.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8117 on: August 01, 2019, 11:26:37 AM »
The problem and I guess you guys just won't see it, is that we don't need to have Venezuela type of inflation to get serious problems with the US economy.   Even a return to the inflation in the 1970s would wreck our economy.

What do you mean by "wreck our economy"?  Are you speaking hyperbolically or literally?  Because we had a recession in the 1970s but both on a decadal-averaged basis and compared to the global economy we did just fine.  The higher inflation periods in the 70s and early 80s were followed by recessions to be sure, but those were neither particularly deep nor prolonged (and resulted in a return to historical inflation means). Certainly those with high fixed debt load would be able to shed much of that debt.

This all just sounds like a lot of fear-mongering:  If this, than that, but never-mind it hasn't played out that way in the past, because it will be different next time.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8118 on: August 01, 2019, 11:31:48 AM »
If there was any chance of a true socialist running, much less winning, then that could be a discussion. But since there isn’t, this is just a straw man.

I have not had the internet bandwidth until now to really even dig into the current crop of candidates so I will have to verify that.   In the mountains we have had at best a 56k bit connection when standing on the higher ground.


partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8119 on: August 01, 2019, 11:59:25 AM »
Someone had given an example of elections in the USA vs Venezuela so I was not the first to make a comparison here.

Someone referenced an article describing the democratic process in North Carolina as deeply damaged and comparable to Venezuela. That's a debatable proposition, but not a ridiculous one on its face; democracy in NC is being actively assaulted.

You, and you specifically, decided to imply as heavily as possible that America would be facing a choice between Trump and Chavez/Maduro 2.0. That is an argument that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Yes, and the damage to the democratic voting process in NC was done by GOP operatives, not Democrat (excuse me socialist) operatives, so the comparison with Venzuela was obviously NOT regarding socialism but that the group in power is undermining elections and voter supression to gain unfair advantage. That is a bigger threat to "life as we know it" in the US, as we have seen in other countries where this has happened.   

« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 01:50:00 PM by partgypsy »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8120 on: August 01, 2019, 03:04:52 PM »
RoG,

Socialism as your biggest worry. What you should be worried about is environmental catastrophe, which at this point is basically a done deal. We're fucked. When resources get scarce, we kill off all the pollinators and the coasts flood what do you think world governments will be like then?

Here's a running list of Trump and his environmental policy (spolier, it's not good)
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8121 on: August 01, 2019, 05:13:42 PM »
The problem and I guess you guys just won't see it, is that we don't need to have Venezuela type of inflation to get serious problems with the US economy.   Even a return to the inflation in the 1970s would wreck our economy.

This stuff can cascade much faster than most realize.   People are worried about the 1.5 trillion in student loans but the state pension funds are far greater a problem if they do not get their expected 8% return.

I am not saying that any of the current candidates are so socialist oriented that they will lead us down the path of ruin and I probably will actually vote for one of them over Trump.  I am just saying that if I had to make a choice between a true socialist that I really felt would start us on the path of ruin or choose a racist/misogynist candidate that I felt would do less overall harm (mostly because they are inept and controllable...if you give Trump a pat on the back and shiny object, he will count it as winning and go play golf), I would have to choose the latter.

So why are you supporting a candidate whose tax cuts are putting the US much further in debt?  The ruin that you're attributing to social programs is not a problem of the programs . . . It's a problem of paying for them. Trump has assured that this will be harder going forward.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8122 on: August 01, 2019, 07:06:56 PM »

So why are you supporting a candidate whose tax cuts are putting the US much further in debt?  The ruin that you're attributing to social programs is not a problem of the programs . . . It's a problem of paying for them. Trump has assured that this will be harder going forward.

I am not supporting Trump.  I already said I would rather have a good democratic candidate than have Trump and I am waiting to see what candidate we get and what their platform is.

I only said that if I were faced with a choice of voting for Trump (I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, I voted 3rd party) in 2020 or voting for someone who would lead us down a path toward socialism, I would probably vote for Trump.  If you say the field of candidates up for the Democratic nomination are rather moderate, then maybe one of them will be just fine.  I really have not had the time or internet (or tv) to wade through a lot of the policies being proposed.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8123 on: August 01, 2019, 07:09:05 PM »

So why are you supporting a candidate whose tax cuts are putting the US much further in debt?  The ruin that you're attributing to social programs is not a problem of the programs . . . It's a problem of paying for them. Trump has assured that this will be harder going forward.
v
This was the strategy championed by Paul Ryan - cut taxes, and then go on TV to talk about how the percentage of social programs had grown and how we needed to cut those programs.  Cut revenue to force cutting of services.  Manufacture the crisis when you don't have the support to begin with.  Followed the same playbook on the ACA too - do everything to make it not solvent, then talk up how its not solvent and therefore must go. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8124 on: August 01, 2019, 07:44:20 PM »
It's a really strange argument you're making, Roland. I think that's why you're getting so many questions.

I only said that if I were faced with a choice of voting for Trump (I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, I voted 3rd party) in 2020 or voting for someone who would lead us down a path toward socialism, I would probably vote for Trump.

Was it your opinion that Clinton was going to "lead us down a path toward socialism"?

Did Obama?
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Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8125 on: August 01, 2019, 07:49:55 PM »
It's a really strange argument you're making, Roland. I think that's why you're getting so many questions.

I only said that if I were faced with a choice of voting for Trump (I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, I voted 3rd party) in 2020 or voting for someone who would lead us down a path toward socialism, I would probably vote for Trump.

Was it your opinion that Clinton was going to "lead us down a path toward socialism"?

Did Obama?

Obama was fine.   I didn't like Hillary, just rubbed me the wrong way.   I thought she was going to win though and was quite surprised when Trump won.   There is a lot about the Republican party I just do not like at all.  There are things about the Democratic party I don't like either.  Maybe I am just grumpy.

I generally believe in helping my fellow man (woman) but I also believe in some level of personal responsibility.   I like to follow rules and I want other people to follow the rules.  I HATE HATE that in Seattle I follow all of the rules, don't litter, register my vehicles on time every time, respect property and then other people will park their RV or van in a beautiful waterfront location, shit it up and the liberal government will do not one thing to make them obey the rules that everyone else has to obey.

I want gun control but I also want extremely harsh penalties to go along with it.  If a person commits a felony with a gun, I want a lifetime sentence.   A murder during a armed felony gets the death penalty.   A prior felon who commits another felony with a gun gets the death penalty.  Believe me, this will reduce the amount of gun deaths in the USA.

On the environment, I want to reduce emissions in the USA, stop trading with countries who do not meet certain environmental standards.  Invest more in improving nuclear power safety and waste storage.   Stop shipping coal to Canada so it can go to China...I see the train cars go by in Blaine, WA toward Canada every hour loaded with coal headed to the B.C. ports.   I would also support population control through education, free abortions and possibly mandatory chemical sterilization research (both male and female) until a person has reached age 21 and has taken parenting classes.   I think this is the real way to help the environment.

On immigration I would like to solve the problem behind the reason people are crossing illegally.  A large portion of the problem is the drug cartel and the abuse of drugs in the USA creating the market.   I think we legalize drug use to destroy the cartels and at the same time adopt a harsh criminal policy on drug related crime. 

On healthcare, I would like to see 100% free healthcare for everyone.  I would pay for it with a combination of taxes.   1)  A national sales tax, a corporate tax, a income tax, and finally a tariff (explained below)

On the medical tariff:

To control the price of drugs and make the costs fair and reasonable for both consumers and investors, I would establish a agency to examine the market and development cost of each approved drug and set a price cap for each.    To make this still attractive to investors (and to continue innovation), I would start the 20 year patent life at the time the drug is approved and not the time the molecule is discovered.  This way the cost of the drug trials and testing could be averaged in over a much longer time and lower price.  The investors would see the potential for more stable returns, almost like the price controls on a utility's rates.   I would severely limit the liability of a company who sells a FDA approved drug unless there was evidence of criminal negligence.   Drug research is hard and we already have a lengthy system of testing in place, but it is not an exact science.  Making huge legal awards does not help us get improved drugs.

Any country that tries to use government controls to force the sale of an approved patented drug below the set cost established by the new agency would be subject to tariffs on imports to the USA from that country.   The US would establish a worldwide fund to provide lower cost drugs to developing countries and this fund would pay the drug company to sell there at below the set cost in developed countries.

And presto!  Suddenly the USA has similar prices on drugs to other developed countries and nobody is cheating the system.   Innovation and investment is still present but drugs are far more affordable at their lower cost due to their longer protected patent life and lower legal costs.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 08:51:48 PM by Roland of Gilead »

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8126 on: August 02, 2019, 07:52:41 AM »
The problem and I guess you guys just won't see it, is that we don't need to have Venezuela type of inflation to get serious problems with the US economy.   Even a return to the inflation in the 1970s would wreck our economy.

This stuff can cascade much faster than most realize.   People are worried about the 1.5 trillion in student loans but the state pension funds are far greater a problem if they do not get their expected 8% return.

I am not saying that any of the current candidates are so socialist oriented that they will lead us down the path of ruin and I probably will actually vote for one of them over Trump.  I am just saying that if I had to make a choice between a true socialist that I really felt would start us on the path of ruin or choose a racist/misogynist candidate that I felt would do less overall harm (mostly because they are inept and controllable...if you give Trump a pat on the back and shiny object, he will count it as winning and go play golf), I would have to choose the latter.

I don't think you've studied Venezuela enough, Roland. Output fell by half over six years. The median wage there IS the minimum wage. The average person there has lost 35 pounds since 2017. It is a scale of human suffering so far beyond 1970's United States stagflation or really even the Great Depression. (see for example https://dialogo-americas.com/en/articles/venezuelas-economic-crisis-outcome-decades-mismanagement )

It sounds like you're using fear of our country becoming that to justify a vote for Trump, and that is your right. I cannot let you conflate the minor economic hiccups we've had in this country with the humanitarian tragedy that these people are experiencing, it's not fair to them. If reminding you of that causes people to vote for Trump over Sanders, I apologize to the rest of America.

I personally think there is no chance either of them could cause suffering on that scale in the US.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8127 on: August 02, 2019, 07:54:47 AM »
^^^^^  Roland of Gilead - not sure why you are so against "socialism" since these are pretty much policies of "socialist" countries - if you think Canada and Australia and a lot of Europe are "socialist".  From a non-US viewpoint your Democrats are middle of the road or slightly right-wing.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8128 on: August 02, 2019, 09:10:37 AM »
It's a really strange argument you're making, Roland. I think that's why you're getting so many questions.

I only said that if I were faced with a choice of voting for Trump (I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, I voted 3rd party) in 2020 or voting for someone who would lead us down a path toward socialism, I would probably vote for Trump.

Was it your opinion that Clinton was going to "lead us down a path toward socialism"?

Did Obama?

Obama was fine.   I didn't like Hillary, just rubbed me the wrong way.   I thought she was going to win though and was quite surprised when Trump won.   There is a lot about the Republican party I just do not like at all.  There are things about the Democratic party I don't like either.  Maybe I am just grumpy.

I generally believe in helping my fellow man (woman) but I also believe in some level of personal responsibility.   I like to follow rules and I want other people to follow the rules.  I HATE HATE that in Seattle I follow all of the rules, don't litter, register my vehicles on time every time, respect property and then other people will park their RV or van in a beautiful waterfront location, shit it up and the liberal government will do not one thing to make them obey the rules that everyone else has to obey.

I want gun control but I also want extremely harsh penalties to go along with it.  If a person commits a felony with a gun, I want a lifetime sentence.   A murder during a armed felony gets the death penalty.   A prior felon who commits another felony with a gun gets the death penalty.  Believe me, this will reduce the amount of gun deaths in the USA.

On the environment, I want to reduce emissions in the USA, stop trading with countries who do not meet certain environmental standards.  Invest more in improving nuclear power safety and waste storage.   Stop shipping coal to Canada so it can go to China...I see the train cars go by in Blaine, WA toward Canada every hour loaded with coal headed to the B.C. ports.   I would also support population control through education, free abortions and possibly mandatory chemical sterilization research (both male and female) until a person has reached age 21 and has taken parenting classes.   I think this is the real way to help the environment.

On immigration I would like to solve the problem behind the reason people are crossing illegally.  A large portion of the problem is the drug cartel and the abuse of drugs in the USA creating the market.   I think we legalize drug use to destroy the cartels and at the same time adopt a harsh criminal policy on drug related crime. 

On healthcare, I would like to see 100% free healthcare for everyone.  I would pay for it with a combination of taxes.   1)  A national sales tax, a corporate tax, a income tax, and finally a tariff (explained below)

On the medical tariff:

To control the price of drugs and make the costs fair and reasonable for both consumers and investors, I would establish a agency to examine the market and development cost of each approved drug and set a price cap for each.    To make this still attractive to investors (and to continue innovation), I would start the 20 year patent life at the time the drug is approved and not the time the molecule is discovered.  This way the cost of the drug trials and testing could be averaged in over a much longer time and lower price.  The investors would see the potential for more stable returns, almost like the price controls on a utility's rates.   I would severely limit the liability of a company who sells a FDA approved drug unless there was evidence of criminal negligence.   Drug research is hard and we already have a lengthy system of testing in place, but it is not an exact science.  Making huge legal awards does not help us get improved drugs.

Any country that tries to use government controls to force the sale of an approved patented drug below the set cost established by the new agency would be subject to tariffs on imports to the USA from that country.   The US would establish a worldwide fund to provide lower cost drugs to developing countries and this fund would pay the drug company to sell there at below the set cost in developed countries.

And presto!  Suddenly the USA has similar prices on drugs to other developed countries and nobody is cheating the system.   Innovation and investment is still present but drugs are far more affordable at their lower cost due to their longer protected patent life and lower legal costs.

Thank you for laying this out there. I hope everyone else in this thread will respect that you've taken the trouble to share these views so openly

Your comment that Hillary "rubbed me the wrong way". Can you go into that more? Or are there other factors--non policy related--like a general frustration with law enforcement, misinformation in the media, or political correctness involved with this?

It doesn't sound as though you are someone who votes based on policy. I think that's actually probably how many people are.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8129 on: August 02, 2019, 09:21:31 AM »
It's a really strange argument you're making, Roland. I think that's why you're getting so many questions.

I only said that if I were faced with a choice of voting for Trump (I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, I voted 3rd party) in 2020 or voting for someone who would lead us down a path toward socialism, I would probably vote for Trump.

Was it your opinion that Clinton was going to "lead us down a path toward socialism"?

Did Obama?

Obama was fine.   I didn't like Hillary, just rubbed me the wrong way.   I thought she was going to win though and was quite surprised when Trump won.   There is a lot about the Republican party I just do not like at all.  There are things about the Democratic party I don't like either.  Maybe I am just grumpy.

I generally believe in helping my fellow man (woman) but I also believe in some level of personal responsibility.   I like to follow rules and I want other people to follow the rules.  I HATE HATE that in Seattle I follow all of the rules, don't litter, register my vehicles on time every time, respect property and then other people will park their RV or van in a beautiful waterfront location, shit it up and the liberal government will do not one thing to make them obey the rules that everyone else has to obey.

I want gun control but I also want extremely harsh penalties to go along with it.  If a person commits a felony with a gun, I want a lifetime sentence.   A murder during a armed felony gets the death penalty.   A prior felon who commits another felony with a gun gets the death penalty.  Believe me, this will reduce the amount of gun deaths in the USA.

On the environment, I want to reduce emissions in the USA, stop trading with countries who do not meet certain environmental standards.  Invest more in improving nuclear power safety and waste storage.   Stop shipping coal to Canada so it can go to China...I see the train cars go by in Blaine, WA toward Canada every hour loaded with coal headed to the B.C. ports.   I would also support population control through education, free abortions and possibly mandatory chemical sterilization research (both male and female) until a person has reached age 21 and has taken parenting classes.   I think this is the real way to help the environment.

On immigration I would like to solve the problem behind the reason people are crossing illegally.  A large portion of the problem is the drug cartel and the abuse of drugs in the USA creating the market.   I think we legalize drug use to destroy the cartels and at the same time adopt a harsh criminal policy on drug related crime. 

On healthcare, I would like to see 100% free healthcare for everyone.  I would pay for it with a combination of taxes.   1)  A national sales tax, a corporate tax, a income tax, and finally a tariff (explained below)

On the medical tariff:

To control the price of drugs and make the costs fair and reasonable for both consumers and investors, I would establish a agency to examine the market and development cost of each approved drug and set a price cap for each.    To make this still attractive to investors (and to continue innovation), I would start the 20 year patent life at the time the drug is approved and not the time the molecule is discovered.  This way the cost of the drug trials and testing could be averaged in over a much longer time and lower price.  The investors would see the potential for more stable returns, almost like the price controls on a utility's rates.   I would severely limit the liability of a company who sells a FDA approved drug unless there was evidence of criminal negligence.   Drug research is hard and we already have a lengthy system of testing in place, but it is not an exact science.  Making huge legal awards does not help us get improved drugs.

Any country that tries to use government controls to force the sale of an approved patented drug below the set cost established by the new agency would be subject to tariffs on imports to the USA from that country.   The US would establish a worldwide fund to provide lower cost drugs to developing countries and this fund would pay the drug company to sell there at below the set cost in developed countries.

And presto!  Suddenly the USA has similar prices on drugs to other developed countries and nobody is cheating the system.   Innovation and investment is still present but drugs are far more affordable at their lower cost due to their longer protected patent life and lower legal costs.

I agree with a lot of the outcomes you seem to desire here, but I sense a strong authoritarian streak, which I do not share.  I would like to achieve these outcomes through other means.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8130 on: August 02, 2019, 11:19:15 AM »
Heard on the news that Trump is signing a ceasefire with the Taliban and plans to bring 4,000 or more soldiers home from Afghanistan.  Not a done deal yet, but sounds close:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/02/us-pull-thousands-troops-taliban-deal/

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8131 on: August 02, 2019, 07:14:19 PM »
Heard on the news that Trump is signing a ceasefire with the Taliban and plans to bring 4,000 or more soldiers home from Afghanistan.  Not a done deal yet, but sounds close:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/02/us-pull-thousands-troops-taliban-deal/

I'm not sure what to think of this.  On the one hand, it would be great for the US to escape the quagmire that Bush jumped into head first.  On the other hand, it would be giving control of the country back to a pretty oppressive regime who are guaranteed to stop the elections and start oppressing women again (not to mention being neck deep in the whole 'normalized boy raping' thing that the US has already been actively supporting for some time - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/world/asia/afghanistan-military-abuse.html).

It's also a bit worrying that "the Taliban would have to give guarantees Afghan soil would not become a launchpad for transnational terrorist groups like al-Qaeda".  I mean, Al-Qaeda never had anything to do with the Taliban.  They're educated Arabs and Egyptians mostly, with few Afghanis . . . and follow radical Hanbali Muslim interpretations to justify their terrorism.  The Taliban has no control over them.  The Taliban are largely uneducated Afghanis following Wahabbism who are nationalists.  The Taliban and al-Qaeda regularly fight between each other.  I dunno how the Taliban are supposed to keep a lid on al-Qaeda.

Mixed bag.  It's encouraging to see something even half good from this administration though.  It will be interesting to see whether it comes to pass.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8132 on: August 03, 2019, 06:55:58 AM »
This stuff can cascade much faster than most realize.   People are worried about the 1.5 trillion in student loans but the state pension funds are far greater a problem if they do not get their expected 8% return.

Hm... so, lets say in 2050 there is production level X in the US.

X is distributed according to what? Money.
So the only thing you need to do is distribute "current year" money and the pension problem is dissipating in itself.

Yeah, I know, SOCIALISM! :D

But really, people always forget we are talking about the distribution of current production. Every time they say "there is no money for that" they are wrong.
(Taking random example I read today) No money to go full green on energy? There is. It is put into fossils. 1/3 of the subventions we put into fossils would be all we need to go green (according to a green friendly group, but even if they are off by a factor of 3 it is still the same money needed now and a lot less in the future).

No money for student loans? How the hell do other countries manage that? A lot of them are even "socialist or communist countries with failing economy"! How can they afford that, but not the US?

arebelspy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8133 on: August 03, 2019, 08:40:26 AM »
No money for student loans? How the hell do other countries manage that? A lot of them are even "socialist or communist countries with failing economy"! How can they afford that, but not the US?

They don't give giant tax cuts to the 0.01%

Hellholes, really.
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Zamboni

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8134 on: August 03, 2019, 08:34:17 PM »
Americans: we have very high opinions or ourselves and our system here.

And those with the highest opinions are often those who have traveled the least.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8135 on: August 04, 2019, 05:07:16 AM »
Americans: we have very high opinions or ourselves and our system here.

And those with the highest opinions are often those who have traveled the least.

Of course. With such a great system, why would you ever have a reason to go somewhere else? Everyone outside is just a Barbarian anyway!

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8136 on: August 04, 2019, 05:15:55 AM »
Heard on the news that Trump is signing a ceasefire with the Taliban and plans to bring 4,000 or more soldiers home from Afghanistan.  Not a done deal yet, but sounds close:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/02/us-pull-thousands-troops-taliban-deal/

I'm not sure what to think of this.  On the one hand, it would be great for the US to escape the quagmire that Bush jumped into head first.  On the other hand, it would be giving control of the country back to a pretty oppressive regime who are guaranteed to stop the elections and start oppressing women again (not to mention being neck deep in the whole 'normalized boy raping' thing that the US has already been actively supporting for some time - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/world/asia/afghanistan-military-abuse.html).

It's also a bit worrying that "the Taliban would have to give guarantees Afghan soil would not become a launchpad for transnational terrorist groups like al-Qaeda".  I mean, Al-Qaeda never had anything to do with the Taliban.  They're educated Arabs and Egyptians mostly, with few Afghanis . . . and follow radical Hanbali Muslim interpretations to justify their terrorism.  The Taliban has no control over them.  The Taliban are largely uneducated Afghanis following Wahabbism who are nationalists.  The Taliban and al-Qaeda regularly fight between each other.  I dunno how the Taliban are supposed to keep a lid on al-Qaeda.

Mixed bag.  It's encouraging to see something even half good from this administration though.  It will be interesting to see whether it comes to pass.

I know, it's complicated, but I'm willing to give praise for bringing thousands of troops home (but keeping a significant presence in the area) as a reasonable action that benefits American soldiers and their families, and maintains some leverage for future negotiation.  Keep the peace, we'll bring more people home.   

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8137 on: August 04, 2019, 06:26:49 AM »
Heard on the news that Trump is signing a ceasefire with the Taliban and plans to bring 4,000 or more soldiers home from Afghanistan.  Not a done deal yet, but sounds close:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/02/us-pull-thousands-troops-taliban-deal/

I'm not sure what to think of this.  On the one hand, it would be great for the US to escape the quagmire that Bush jumped into head first.  On the other hand, it would be giving control of the country back to a pretty oppressive regime who are guaranteed to stop the elections and start oppressing women again (not to mention being neck deep in the whole 'normalized boy raping' thing that the US has already been actively supporting for some time - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/world/asia/afghanistan-military-abuse.html).

It's also a bit worrying that "the Taliban would have to give guarantees Afghan soil would not become a launchpad for transnational terrorist groups like al-Qaeda".  I mean, Al-Qaeda never had anything to do with the Taliban.  They're educated Arabs and Egyptians mostly, with few Afghanis . . . and follow radical Hanbali Muslim interpretations to justify their terrorism.  The Taliban has no control over them.  The Taliban are largely uneducated Afghanis following Wahabbism who are nationalists.  The Taliban and al-Qaeda regularly fight between each other.  I dunno how the Taliban are supposed to keep a lid on al-Qaeda.

Mixed bag.  It's encouraging to see something even half good from this administration though.  It will be interesting to see whether it comes to pass.

I know, it's complicated, but I'm willing to give praise for bringing thousands of troops home (but keeping a significant presence in the area) as a reasonable action that benefits American soldiers and their families, and maintains some leverage for future negotiation.  Keep the peace, we'll bring more people home.

Sure.  America had little reason to invade the country to begin with (the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and had/have no control over al-Qaeda).  It makes perfect sense to bring back troops as a concession to the utter failure to remove the Taliban from power and implement democracy.

How many thousand troops has Trump brought back so far that you're giving him credit for?

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8138 on: August 04, 2019, 07:59:21 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?




rantk81

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8139 on: August 04, 2019, 08:05:09 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8140 on: August 04, 2019, 08:11:27 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?
Trying to find some other plausible source talking about invasions from South America that could be blamed instead of him?

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8141 on: August 04, 2019, 08:20:08 AM »
Someone just crossed the English Channel on a powered hoverboard.  22 miles (with a refueling stop on a ship half way) at a height of 15 to 20 metres.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/04/franky-zapata-crosses-channel-by-hoverboard-at-second-attempt

What price Trump's wall now?

OtherJen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8142 on: August 04, 2019, 08:30:33 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?

His latest tweet asks god to bless the people of both cities.

Fuck “thoughts and prayers.” Our people are being slaughtered by domestic terrorists.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8143 on: August 04, 2019, 08:54:50 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?

His latest tweet asks god to bless the people of both cities.

Fuck “thoughts and prayers.” Our people are being slaughtered by domestic terrorists.

This is an obvious failure of religion in the US.  God is all powerful and can solve any problem.  The religious must therefore not be praying hard enough to solve the mass shooting issue.

OtherJen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8144 on: August 04, 2019, 08:58:53 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?

His latest tweet asks god to bless the people of both cities.

Fuck “thoughts and prayers.” Our people are being slaughtered by domestic terrorists.

This is an obvious failure of religion in the US.  God is all powerful and can solve any problem.  The religious must therefore not be praying hard enough to solve the mass shooting issue.

Probably more that most of them are praying to the “wrong” god. Which god is “right” varies widely, depending on who you ask. (Disclaimer: I am atheist so it’s probably all my fault.)

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8145 on: August 04, 2019, 09:00:16 AM »
Wonder what plans Trump has for dealing with the mass shootings in the US?  Is he even concerned about it?

Maybe just tweeting on what "very fine people" were involved?

His latest tweet asks god to bless the people of both cities.

Fuck “thoughts and prayers.” Our people are being slaughtered by domestic terrorists.

This is an obvious failure of religion in the US.  God is all powerful and can solve any problem.  The religious must therefore not be praying hard enough to solve the mass shooting issue.

Probably more that most of them are praying to the “wrong” god. Which god is “right” varies widely, depending on who you ask. (Disclaimer: I am atheist so it’s probably all my fault.)

If only more were touched by the one, true, noodly appendage this wouldn't be a concern . . .

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8146 on: August 05, 2019, 06:59:03 AM »

How many thousand troops has Trump brought back so far that you're giving him credit for?

As you know, there are two sides to the negotiation, and I don't expect Trump to give up something for nothing. So, we'll have to wait and see.  I give him some credit for trying to move things forward in the direction of peace.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8147 on: August 05, 2019, 07:50:15 AM »
I'm realistic about the chances of meaningful action against guns from our Federal government.

But it doesn't seem like Democrats are able to win on this issue. When it comes up, they look unhinged and a bunch of far right voters show up and elect the other guy.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8148 on: August 05, 2019, 07:52:31 AM »

How many thousand troops has Trump brought back so far that you're giving him credit for?

As you know, there are two sides to the negotiation, and I don't expect Trump to give up something for nothing. So, we'll have to wait and see.  I give him some credit for trying to move things forward in the direction of peace.

We've seen this show before, the infamous "Peace with Honor" brought to you by Kissinger/Nixon.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #8149 on: August 05, 2019, 08:23:41 AM »

How many thousand troops has Trump brought back so far that you're giving him credit for?

As you know, there are two sides to the negotiation, and I don't expect Trump to give up something for nothing. So, we'll have to wait and see.  I give him some credit for trying to move things forward in the direction of peace.

I think this was more of a "I'll believe it when I see it" statement. Maybe it will go through, but if Trump ripped up the deal at the last minute it wouldn't exactly be out of character.

And to the bolded, why not? He's given significant concessions to North Korea in exchange for...?