Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 368671 times)

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2350 on: June 27, 2018, 10:58:51 AM »
If that isn't the best example of conservative whining I've ever seen, I don't know what is.  'Waaaah--I called them names, and now they're being MEAN to me!'

It's like telling DV victims to just "be nicer" to their abuser.  No.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2351 on: June 27, 2018, 11:10:23 AM »
Not sure he's really indicated that he could do all of those things in any serious manner, but regardless, he's not close to doing or being able to do any of those things.

"In any serious manner" meaning something that he won't backtrack on whenever it fits his mood?

Of course.  Trump was being serious when he claimed he could shoot somebody in times square and not lose support.  That's certainly a reasonably position you are taking there. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2352 on: June 27, 2018, 11:11:03 AM »
Amazing to watch the Left being exactly what they claim to despise: nasty, bullying, intolerant fascists.

Awww, you don't like it when your tactics are thrown back in your face?  Do you need a safe space?
why do you make it personal? anything useful to actually add to the conversation? you and a few others go after me personally... I am living rent-free in your head.

I personally am the nicest, non-bullying, tolerant, gun owning god fearing apologetically principled person you may ever interact with. I'm really humble too.


Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2353 on: June 27, 2018, 11:12:58 AM »
The part I love is where people seem to assert that if the Democrats are not 'civil' enough, not meek enough, not humble enough, don't reach out enough, don't roll over and show their bellies enough ... then somehow these mythical swing state/Republican voters won't give them enough votes to take back Congress or the next Presidency.

Newsflash:  Democrats tried all that, and IT'S NOT WORKING.  You know what did work?  Tea Party tactics.  Get people outraged, get them angry, and keep them angry enough to rally them on election day (and before, and after).  Get them angry enough to put their local elected officials on notice. 

Let's be realistic:  the only thing white middle-class swing voters in swing states really care about is jobs.  Everything else is negotiable--immigration, gun control, abortion.  They want their cushy jobs with full benefits, (only manly jobs, if you please, none of these feminine 'service' jobs like healthcare, thankyouverymuch), and if/when the economy tanks, they will turn on Trump & co faster you can say 'whataboutism'.

You know who really is angry and raring to vote right now, though?  Minorities and young people.  And while lots of them hate Trump, they also tend to think the Democrats are just Republicans lite.  (I don't agree, but that's neither here nor there.)  IMHO, that's who the Democrats should be going after, in swing states and elsewhere.  Screw being civil.  Pelosi and co need to adopt a new strategy:  get angry, stay angry, be loud about it, and rally the vote.  And if that means doing unto them what they've done unto us, then so be it.  If Republicans can play that game, Democrats can too.

Were Tea Partiers encouraging people to harass big spenders in public spaces?  To refuse to serve big spenders?  Did they riot when people who they disagreed with spoke on college campuses?  I think you might be misremembering how the tea party acted and what led to their electoral success (to the extent they had any; I guess they get some credit for sequestration before they lost all influence?)

TrudgingAlong

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2354 on: June 27, 2018, 11:21:42 AM »
Shifting topics: Trump is forcing iconic American company Harley Davidson to relocate to Europe because trade war. The delicious irony is not lost on me. Interesting that I ran across conservative comments claiming the CEO is “liberal” and that’s why they are leaving, not because the president is dumbass who doesn’t understand how trade works.

acroy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2355 on: June 27, 2018, 11:22:40 AM »
Amazing to watch the Left being exactly what they claim to despise: nasty, bullying, intolerant fascists.

Awww, you don't like it when your tactics are thrown back in your face?  Do you need a safe space?
why do you make it personal? anything useful to actually add to the conversation? you and a few others go after me personally... I am living rent-free in your head.

The irony in this is almost overwhelming.  I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.  You just called all liberals (including the ones on this board, one presumes) 'nasty, bullying, intolerant fascists', and then want to complain about making it personal?  If that isn't the best example of conservative whining I've ever seen, I don't know what is.  'Waaaah--I called them names, and now they're being MEAN to me!'
NO. read it again carefully. I called out the left. Specifically the extreme left obviously, the ones guilty of such nastiness. NOT all liberals. in fact by definition a *true* liberal who lives by liberal principles is not an extreme bullying Lefty. You confused the 'left' with 'liberal'.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2356 on: June 27, 2018, 11:26:06 AM »
Can we hit the reset button back to discussing topics and not personal insults or "but, what you really said was...."?

acroy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2357 on: June 27, 2018, 11:36:56 AM »


I personally am the nicest, non-bullying, tolerant, gun owning god fearing apologetically principled person you may ever interact with. I'm really humble too.

Ok, that last part made me chuckle...
Good. I'd like to lighten up and discuss rationally, and humor never hurts. If I want unthinking hysterics i can go to fb.... I'm here for the more thoughtful things going on.



the t-shirt (which by the way is just nasty, or funny, you pick, non-racist, non-bullying etc) vs the actual violence, property destruction, etc over the last 1.5yrs. highlight reel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=eFRHX6glTSM

Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

you stand with that? they are incomparable

new poll: 59% of the country is "concerned that those opposed to President Trump’s policies will resort to violence".
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/poll-59-fear-violence-from-trump-haters-31-predict-civil-war
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2358 on: June 27, 2018, 11:40:11 AM »
Amazing to watch the Left being exactly what they claim to despise: nasty, bullying, intolerant fascists.

Awww, you don't like it when your tactics are thrown back in your face?  Do you need a safe space?
why do you make it personal? anything useful to actually add to the conversation? you and a few others go after me personally... I am living rent-free in your head.

I personally am the nicest, non-bullying, tolerant, gun owning god fearing apologetically principled person you may ever interact with. I'm really humble too.

And I was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2359 on: June 27, 2018, 11:42:17 AM »


I personally am the nicest, non-bullying, tolerant, gun owning god fearing apologetically principled person you may ever interact with. I'm really humble too.

Ok, that last part made me chuckle...
Good. I'd like to lighten up and discuss rationally, and humor never hurts. If I want unthinking hysterics i can go to fb.... I'm here for the more thoughtful things going on.



the t-shirt (which by the way is just nasty, or funny, you pick, non-racist, non-bullying etc) vs the actual violence, property destruction, etc over the last 1.5yrs. highlight reel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=eFRHX6glTSM

Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

you stand with that? they are incomparable

new poll: 59% of the country is "concerned that those opposed to President Trump’s policies will resort to violence".
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/poll-59-fear-violence-from-trump-haters-31-predict-civil-war
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Ya know, threatening to run outside and murder people is pretty much the opposite of “calm”.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2360 on: June 27, 2018, 11:50:42 AM »
Gotta say, ranked voting and/or proportionate representation would be great and reduce the polarization.

FrugalToque

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2361 on: June 27, 2018, 11:51:05 AM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2362 on: June 27, 2018, 11:59:22 AM »
Shifting topics: Trump is forcing iconic American company Harley Davidson to relocate to Europe because trade war. The delicious irony is not lost on me. Interesting that I ran across conservative comments claiming the CEO is “liberal” and that’s why they are leaving, not because the president is dumbass who doesn’t understand how trade works.

It's funny that you brought this up. I was just reading something the other day where they said Trump himself and/or his supporters will find a way to spin it into blaming the liberals. 

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2363 on: June 27, 2018, 12:08:56 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2364 on: June 27, 2018, 12:11:36 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2365 on: June 27, 2018, 12:18:14 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.
I just hope RBGs health holds up.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2366 on: June 27, 2018, 12:35:15 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

You couldn't tell it from the recent decisions.

He was instrumental in Roe cases and legalizing gay marriage; with a new uber-conservative judge, I expect the court to chip away at abortion rights until Roe is effectively reversed.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2367 on: June 27, 2018, 12:36:42 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.
I just hope RBGs health holds up.

Yeah, it's a tall order. Plus, she has a life you know, she might not want to stay on until she dies. Unless the dems take the senate this year I think Trump will be putting on one and maybe two more justices. Just by age it's most likely to be RBG and Breyer, which means it will be a conservative majority for a very long time, probably decades.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2368 on: June 27, 2018, 12:45:11 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

You couldn't tell it from the recent decisions.

He was instrumental in Roe cases and legalizing gay marriage; with a new uber-conservative judge, I expect the court to chip away at abortion rights until Roe is effectively reversed.

You're going to see Roberts move left to slow a lot of change and take political considerations into account.   

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2369 on: June 27, 2018, 12:49:08 PM »
Elections have consequences.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2370 on: June 27, 2018, 12:51:55 PM »
Were Tea Partiers encouraging people to harass big spenders in public spaces?  To refuse to serve big spenders?  Did they riot when people who they disagreed with spoke on college campuses?  I think you might be misremembering how the tea party acted and what led to their electoral success (to the extent they had any; I guess they get some credit for sequestration before they lost all influence?)




No, we remember

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2371 on: June 27, 2018, 12:53:42 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

You couldn't tell it from the recent decisions.

He was instrumental in Roe cases and legalizing gay marriage; with a new uber-conservative judge, I expect the court to chip away at abortion rights until Roe is effectively reversed.

You're going to see Roberts move left to slow a lot of change and take political considerations into account.

He just legalized bigotry this month so I don't have much hope.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2372 on: June 27, 2018, 12:55:35 PM »
The part I love is where people seem to assert that if the Democrats are not 'civil' enough, not meek enough, not humble enough, don't reach out enough, don't roll over and show their bellies enough ... then somehow these mythical swing state/Republican voters won't give them enough votes to take back Congress or the next Presidency.

Newsflash:  Democrats tried all that, and IT'S NOT WORKING.  You know what did work?  Tea Party tactics.  Get people outraged, get them angry, and keep them angry enough to rally them on election day (and before, and after).  Get them angry enough to put their local elected officials on notice. 

Let's be realistic:  the only thing white middle-class swing voters in swing states really care about is jobs.  Everything else is negotiable--immigration, gun control, abortion.  They want their cushy jobs with full benefits, (only manly jobs, if you please, none of these feminine 'service' jobs like healthcare, thankyouverymuch), and if/when the economy tanks, they will turn on Trump & co faster you can say 'whataboutism'.

You know who really is angry and raring to vote right now, though?  Minorities and young people.  And while lots of them hate Trump, they also tend to think the Democrats are just Republicans lite.  (I don't agree, but that's neither here nor there.)  IMHO, that's who the Democrats should be going after, in swing states and elsewhere.  Screw being civil.  Pelosi and co need to adopt a new strategy:  get angry, stay angry, be loud about it, and rally the vote.  And if that means doing unto them what they've done unto us, then so be it.  If Republicans can play that game, Democrats can too.

Like Obama's mentor Alinsky famously said, "Rub Raw, the Sores of Discontent"

If you keep them angry you can control them. That was the cornerstone of his "Community Organizing". Demonize the police and empower the poor population of minorities. I personally think America is tired of all this. I do not hear much any more from BLM. I think angry America understands that significant change must start from within. Societal Reform, Absent Fathers, Drug Addiction are all needed for communities to heal.  I would go so far to argue that the "really angry" population in which you speak, should also be concerned about jobs.

I find the ability to work and support a family is a much higher priority for me when I look at the potential candidates than any priority the liberals are coming to the table with.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2373 on: June 27, 2018, 12:56:45 PM »
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.
I think that that's the opposite of 'calmed down', especially when you remember that 23 million of those gun owners are liberal, 1.5x as many hands as served in the US army in WW2.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2374 on: June 27, 2018, 12:57:07 PM »
Were Tea Partiers encouraging people to harass big spenders in public spaces?  To refuse to serve big spenders?  Did they riot when people who they disagreed with spoke on college campuses?  I think you might be misremembering how the tea party acted and what led to their electoral success (to the extent they had any; I guess they get some credit for sequestration before they lost all influence?)
No, we remember

So I take it that's a no to all three questions then? 

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2375 on: June 27, 2018, 12:57:47 PM »
NO. read it again carefully. I called out the left... NOT all liberals... You confused the 'left' with 'liberal'.
And to act as if the two are not, in common parlance, used interchangeably is straightforward pigheadedness.


Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2376 on: June 27, 2018, 01:02:31 PM »
I find the ability to work and support a family is a much higher priority for me when I look at the potential candidates than any priority the liberals are coming to the table with.
Can't work if you've been murdered.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2377 on: June 27, 2018, 01:03:27 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

You couldn't tell it from the recent decisions.

He was instrumental in Roe cases and legalizing gay marriage; with a new uber-conservative judge, I expect the court to chip away at abortion rights until Roe is effectively reversed.

You're going to see Roberts move left to slow a lot of change and take political considerations into account.

Perhaps. Conservative judges do tend to become more moderate over time and he's the most likely. It definitely won't be Thomas.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2378 on: June 27, 2018, 01:10:01 PM »
I find the ability to work and support a family is a much higher priority for me when I look at the potential candidates than any priority the liberals are coming to the table with.
Can't work if you've been murdered.

Bring it

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2379 on: June 27, 2018, 01:11:37 PM »
So I take it that's a no to all three questions then?
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/tea-partiers-told-to-drop-by-perriellos-home-034843
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/perriello-gas-line-intentionally-cut-035040#ixzz0lC0cMKi7
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26threat.html
So there's an irony here, in that we both think that the other person is, at best, brainwashed, and more likely some kind of a liar.
See, I could tell you about conservative political violence in the united states, specifically in the time where that would have been classified as Tea Party violence (the media phenomenon being broader than the political organization), but I know you wouldn't believe me. And I know I don't believe you. So I guess we fight then?
I don't know. This seems dumb, like an own goal on freedom. But the odds of you destroying the rule of law and all common decency seem really, really high, so it seems foolish to let my guard down.

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2380 on: June 27, 2018, 01:13:28 PM »
Kennedy, the last moderate, is off the court... time for another rightward swing.

I know there's not much to do at this point, but I sincerely hope that every single person with a Democratic senator is calling them right now and urging them to use every tool available to them to block all Supreme Court nominations for the next 2 1/2 years.  Maybe a couple of senators could place holds on the vote for now in the hopes that democrats gain a slim majority in November and then just not bring any SC nominations up for a vote until 2020?

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2381 on: June 27, 2018, 01:13:39 PM »
I find the ability to work and support a family is a much higher priority for me when I look at the potential candidates than any priority the liberals are coming to the table with.
Can't work if you've been murdered.

Bring it
That was needlessly unclear, I apologize. I meant things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
We are constantly us society's ass about 'civil rights' stuff, because we unironically think you're plotting to kill us.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2382 on: June 27, 2018, 01:37:53 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2383 on: June 27, 2018, 01:41:13 PM »
So I take it that's a no to all three questions then?
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/tea-partiers-told-to-drop-by-perriellos-home-034843
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/perriello-gas-line-intentionally-cut-035040#ixzz0lC0cMKi7

So that's a yes.  That's not on the same scale as an elected representative encouraging harassment of people in their private lives, but incredibly stupid and harmful.  I hope they were called out for by people on the right. 

I still question whether that was helpful to them.  I suspect to the extent it did anything, it hurt them.   


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26threat.html
  This is paywalled and can't tell what it is from the address. 


So there's an irony here, in that we both think that the other person is, at best, brainwashed, and more likely some kind of a liar.
See, I could tell you about conservative political violence in the united states, specifically in the time where that would have been classified as Tea Party violence (the media phenomenon being broader than the political organization),  but I know you wouldn't believe me. And I know I don't believe you. So I guess we fight then?
  I don't think you're brainwashed.  I think your biases are skewing your perception of the tea party and the extent that incivility during that time spilled over into harassing public officials in their private life or inciting violence against public officials.  Of course it's hard to keep a sense of perspective because there are always crazies and it also depends on where you are paying attention.  Is an act of violence or threatened violence a one-off from a crazy?  Or part of a pattern?  I obviously had no awareness of the fact that a representative in VA had his brother's address published, and that somebody cut his gasline.  I am aware of Maxine waters encouraging harassment of government officials, and of course am aware of the attempted assassination of a half dozen republican congressmen.  How much of that is bias and how much of it is that there is a difference between the levels of violence?

I don't know. This seems dumb, like an own goal on freedom. But the odds of you destroying the rule of law and all common decency seem really, really high, so it seems foolish to let my guard down.
  You think I am going to destroy the rule of law and all common decency.  This could just be my bias, but I'm not the one advocating in favor of harassing public officials in their private lives.  And I wasn't in 08, 10, 12, 14, or 16 either.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2384 on: June 27, 2018, 01:44:49 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people? 

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2385 on: June 27, 2018, 01:48:55 PM »
I find the ability to work and support a family is a much higher priority for me when I look at the potential candidates than any priority the liberals are coming to the table with.
Can't work if you've been murdered.

Bring it
That was needlessly unclear, I apologize. I meant things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
We are constantly us society's ass about 'civil rights' stuff, because we unironically think you're plotting to kill us.

I will agree that police brutality needs to be addressed, if you can agree that the high black on black homicide rates would benefit from societal reform. I do not list the crime rates to undermine the tragic lives lost from poorly trained, over zealous, or just plain bad Police. But just look at Chicago, Father's Day weekend, 10 murders and 50 wounded? My original reference to BLM was that Black Lives should matter and the majority are falling prey to each other. Blacks have a right to be angry and want change, but there needs to be a middle ground, and reform. Angry riots have proven to be ineffective and a catalyst for further criminal behavior.

Compared to the national average, the homicide rate was 54% lower for whites, 14% lower for Hispanics, and 267% higher for blacks. Put another way, the homicide rate among African-Americans is nearly quadruple that of the national average.

Last year, President Obama highlighted the importance of this issue. He said, "The single greatest cause of death for young black men between the ages of 18 and 35 is homicide. And that's crazy. That is crazy." Actually, it's worse than that. According to the CDC, homicide is the #1 cause of death for African-Americans in all age groups from 15 to 34 (i.e., 15 to 19, 20 to 24, and 25 to 34).

Source: "QuickStats: Age-Adjusted Rates for Homicides, by Race/Ethnicity— United States, 1999–2015." MMWR 66 (31): 839. Published: 11-Aug-2017. DOI: 10.15585/mmwr.mm6631a9.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2386 on: June 27, 2018, 01:53:34 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people?

We aren't talking about the daily shitty things Trump does. We are talking about denying people a constitutional right and imprisoning them without due process. It fits the very definition of tyranny.

FrugalToque

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2387 on: June 27, 2018, 01:56:24 PM »

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

No.  There is no reading of what I wrote which suggests I want violence.  I'm looking for consistency.  I don't see it.

Toque.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2388 on: June 27, 2018, 02:05:37 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people?

We aren't talking about the daily shitty things Trump does. We are talking about denying people a constitutional right and imprisoning them without due process. It fits the very definition of tyranny.

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If Liberal groups are to continue to flood the borders for the sake of negative PR, something has to give.

So let them all in, let them stay together, do not detain or track them and this applies:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Yeah, what could go wrong.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2389 on: June 27, 2018, 02:07:43 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people?

We aren't talking about the daily shitty things Trump does. We are talking about denying people a constitutional right and imprisoning them without due process. It fits the very definition of tyranny.

You're going to have to point out what you're talking about here. 

Are you talking about detaining people at the border?  You realize we have a long history of imprisoning people before trial, right?  I'm not a fan of it, but it's not something new to Trump or limited to people accused of crossing the border illegally. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2390 on: June 27, 2018, 02:13:52 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people?

We aren't talking about the daily shitty things Trump does. We are talking about denying people a constitutional right and imprisoning them without due process. It fits the very definition of tyranny.

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

FrugalToque

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2391 on: June 27, 2018, 02:36:59 PM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: “We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2392 on: June 27, 2018, 02:38:05 PM »
Not to mention celebrities, daily, saying things like "rip Barron Trump from his mother’s arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles". One example among many.

One person literally enacted an order that forcibly separated thousands of children from their parents, expressly for the purpose of "deterrence".
Another used words, not armed humans, to say, effectively, "Someone should do that to you and see how you like it."

These are not equivalent.  Not even close.

Quote
Not to worry though. if it gets that bad, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.

Funny thing.  The 2LoT never tires of telling us how their purpose is to protect against the rise of a tyrannical government.  But when the president suggested he wanted to do away with courts and judges and deport people without due process, I heard not a peep from any organized militia.

I find this highly suspicious, and I begin to question their motivation.

Toque.
  So you think to prove their motivation, they should go around shooting or threatening to shoot people based on their speech?  I gotta think you don't understand what their motivations are.

You are being a bit facetious. It's rather tough to be a gun toting Trump supporter who thinks his/her right to a firearm is necessary in part to suppress a tyrannical government when if fact they are supporting said tyrannical government. In other words, you can't have it both ways.   

Did you see a jump in gun sales when Trump suggested he wanted to do away with due process? I bet not!

I think you have a very different definition of tyrannical government.  Yes, our government can be and is horrible on a daily basis in many respects, but it's still roughly comparable to the least tyrannical governments that exist or ever have existed in any country with more than a few million people?

We aren't talking about the daily shitty things Trump does. We are talking about denying people a constitutional right and imprisoning them without due process. It fits the very definition of tyranny.

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If Liberal groups are to continue to flood the borders for the sake of negative PR, something has to give.

So let them all in, let them stay together, do not detain or track them and this applies:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Yeah, what could go wrong.

You do realize that there are parts of our constitution that apply to everyone regardless of citizenship, right?  As in, they were intended to and specifically state as such.  Also, I'd very much like you to explain to me how to give rights such as due process and habeas corpus to certain groups and not to others without making those rights completely meaningless.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2393 on: June 27, 2018, 02:41:42 PM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: “We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2394 on: June 27, 2018, 02:43:27 PM »
If Liberal groups are to continue to flood the borders

Wut

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2395 on: June 27, 2018, 02:45:34 PM »
We are talking about...imprisoning them without due process.
Trump tweeted: “...When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about. 
Is it imprisonment or deportation that we are talking about?

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2396 on: June 27, 2018, 02:48:10 PM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: “We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

It would be great and less disturbing if Trump didn't tweet like an idiot, and people should definitely be on the look out for Trump trying to actually implement anything like this, but as long as he is not actually trying to do it, tweeting does not equate to tyranny. 

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2397 on: June 27, 2018, 02:54:56 PM »
We are talking about...imprisoning them without due process.
Trump tweeted: “...When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about. 
Is it imprisonment or deportation that we are talking about?

I was using imprisonment in a figurative sense.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2398 on: June 27, 2018, 02:56:00 PM »
Okay, with the change in the Supreme Court seat, I predict that women who live in the "red" states will very soon have to drive to a "blue" state to get a legal abortion. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2399 on: June 27, 2018, 02:56:54 PM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: “We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.”

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

I see.  That was getting lost (to me) with all the various comments and quotes.
The desire for absolute power and the reality of having it are very different htings indeed.