Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 706591 times)

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7650 on: July 07, 2019, 05:41:46 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7651 on: July 07, 2019, 05:49:25 PM »
Has anyone seen this? PS it is very hard to take seriously anyone's argument who uses the word "illegals" to describe undocumented immigrants.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/316341058/Donald-Trump-Jeffrey-Epstein-Rape-Lawsuit-and-Affidavits?fbclid=IwAR0XuetfKDYIFdsWtThbVIOeAM6ubY_D_7P9AmlGWXdxrOSLKSiYZHXJQlA

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7652 on: July 07, 2019, 05:59:12 PM »
PS it is very hard to take seriously anyone's argument who uses the word "illegals" to describe undocumented immigrants.

That's ironic.  As soon as I hear someone say "undocumented", I know they are going to blow me a bunch of smoke.  "Illegal alien" is official government terminology.

ref:

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) federally codified the term “illegal alien” into federal law when President Ronald Reagan signed it in 1986. However, the term was already being used in legal conversation and the media for decades.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7653 on: July 07, 2019, 06:01:36 PM »
Undocumented immigrants sounds a bit like saying "unauthorized auto mover" instead of car thief.

If you are in the country illegally, well, you are kind of an illegal.

oldtoyota

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7654 on: July 07, 2019, 06:11:07 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

You calling humans "illegals" is quite concerning. Where are you learning to speak about people like that?

And your post lacks any mention of the reasons people are coming here. The problems in those countries will only continue and more people will come here. They are not coming for the "booming economy."

The humans, the people, are leaving their countries because they fear being killed.

They have beating hearts like you and me. They want good lives as you and I do. They do not want to be killed...like you and me.

Your post turns humans into labels--"the democrats" or "the illegals." I encourage you to think twice before you continue doing that. When you start doing that, you've begun to allow wider forces to control your mind by controlling your language.




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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7655 on: July 07, 2019, 06:12:04 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

So, to sum up:  Trump gets all the credit for the economy, and the crisis with immigration is all democrats fault?
I mean, that's a pretty tough pill to swallow.  Particularly when the GOP has controlled all branches of government for two of the last 2.5 years.

I have not come across any House or Senate member say anything about wanting open borders, even under other language.  Who have you heard advocating for open borders, and when?

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7656 on: July 07, 2019, 06:13:44 PM »
They are not coming for the "booming economy."


Yes they are, otherwise they would stop moving north when they got to Mexico.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7657 on: July 07, 2019, 07:22:07 PM »
PS it is very hard to take seriously anyone's argument who uses the word "illegals" to describe undocumented immigrants.

That's ironic.  As soon as I hear someone say "undocumented", I know they are going to blow me a bunch of smoke.  "Illegal alien" is official government terminology.

ref:

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) federally codified the term “illegal alien” into federal law when President Ronald Reagan signed it in 1986. However, the term was already being used in legal conversation and the media for decades.
. Then call them illegal aliens then, not "illegals". Otherwise not only is it dehumanizing language, it's poor English. Undocumented aliens is also a government sanctioned and recognized term (as well as being the preferred and more legally precise term, which you didn't mention. You can tell by reading gao and other government reports about immigration.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 07:32:44 PM by partgypsy »

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7658 on: July 07, 2019, 07:34:47 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

You calling humans "illegals" is quite concerning. Where are you learning to speak about people like that?

And your post lacks any mention of the reasons people are coming here.

Both of those are addressed in my previous post.

Quote
you've begun to allow wider forces to control your mind by controlling your language.

Actually, it is my choice to use the correct language. and I have for many years before I stumbled across this forum and well before Trump became president.  "Undocumented" isn't even factually correct in many instances as "fraudulent documentation" is commonly used by illegal aliens.

My concern is border security and protecting American citizens above the well-being of this foreign force trying to infiltrate our borders.  I don't wish them any harm in their own countries, but we must defend our borders.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7659 on: July 07, 2019, 07:40:15 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

So, to sum up:  Trump gets all the credit for the economy, and the crisis with immigration is all democrats fault?

I don't see where I said "Trump" gets all the credit.  But the crisis could be averted if not for democrats.   But I blame our immigration and asylums laws on previous administrations as well, so I don't put that solely on the democrats, but they are more of the obstructionists on this issue today.

It's pretty bitter to swallow, but it is what it is.

They don't come out and say "open borders", but that that's what they want to move to, such as stating that they want to decriminalize an illegal alien crossing the border into the American homeland and coddle them with taxpayer dollars until they can find them a home here in the U.S. paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7660 on: July 07, 2019, 07:47:00 PM »
PS it is very hard to take seriously anyone's argument who uses the word "illegals" to describe undocumented immigrants.

That's ironic.  As soon as I hear someone say "undocumented", I know they are going to blow me a bunch of smoke.  "Illegal alien" is official government terminology.

ref:

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) federally codified the term “illegal alien” into federal law when President Ronald Reagan signed it in 1986. However, the term was already being used in legal conversation and the media for decades.
. Then call them illegal aliens then, not "illegals".

Illegals is just very common shorthand for "illegal aliens".  The intent/meaning is the same.  "Undocumented" was a term pretty much unheard of a decade ago.  Every evening on CNN news a decade ago, they talked about "illegal aliens".  The only people that said "undocumented" back then were certain guest such as from La Raza who were pushing for amnesty for illegals, so those guests didn't want to use any term with "illegal" in it.  I mean, it is what it is.

Anyway, we're getting into the weeds with this whole discussion about illegals.  But my original point stands that Trump has been strong on immigration and border security, but democrats have been obstructionists on the issue, and I fear the result on this matter in regards to all of the democrat candidates.

Don't assume that I support Trump on all matters.  I don't.  I'm an independent (no political affiliation) and don't drink the Kool-aid of either party.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 08:08:42 PM by FIREstache »

Tom Bri

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7661 on: July 07, 2019, 07:54:08 PM »
Emissions declining since 2007.

Why would you say that?



The conversation is about Trump, not China or India. US emissions, obviously, following the conversation.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7662 on: July 07, 2019, 08:27:18 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

So, to sum up:  Trump gets all the credit for the economy, and the crisis with immigration is all democrats fault?

I don't see where I said "Trump" gets all the credit.  But the crisis could be averted if not for democrats.   But I blame our immigration and asylums laws on previous administrations as well, so I don't put that solely on the democrats, but they are more of the obstructionists on this issue today.

It's pretty bitter to swallow, but it is what it is.

They don't come out and say "open borders", but that that's what they want to move to, such as stating that they want to decriminalize an illegal alien crossing the border into the American homeland and coddle them with taxpayer dollars until they can find them a home here in the U.S. paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

And register every new open border person to vote so they can flip Texas blue.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7663 on: July 07, 2019, 08:59:05 PM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

So, to sum up:  Trump gets all the credit for the economy, and the crisis with immigration is all democrats fault?
How far the conservative right has come since the days of Reagan.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/heres-how-ronald-reagan-spoke-of-immigrants-when-he-said-he-wanted-to-make-america-great-again



I don't see where I said "Trump" gets all the credit.  But the crisis could be averted if not for democrats.   But I blame our immigration and asylums laws on previous administrations as well, so I don't put that solely on the democrats, but they are more of the obstructionists on this issue today.

It's pretty bitter to swallow, but it is what it is.

They don't come out and say "open borders", but that that's what they want to move to, such as stating that they want to decriminalize an illegal alien crossing the border into the American homeland and coddle them with taxpayer dollars until they can find them a home here in the U.S. paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7664 on: July 08, 2019, 02:43:13 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took abut 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

This level of deliberate ignorance is breathtaking. A handful of disjointed and non-comparable facts, stripped of all context, and then presented as an argument. You didn't bother wondering about the fact that 2008 was the worst and most catastrophic failure in almost a century, or that there was real and serious concern that the entire world economy might freeze up due to nobody being willing to inject liquidity? You don't bother to look at unemployment rates over the course of Obama's two terms to try and be at least a little honest about your data points? This is either deliberate bad faith or a total failure to understand what actually happened in 2008, and both are disqualifying in any discussion like this.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7665 on: July 08, 2019, 04:01:59 AM »

And register every new open border person to vote so they can flip Texas blue.


Unless you have reputable sources for this statement, I'm going to regard it as a level of paranoid xenophobia which is extremely disappointing in someone for whom I had previously had considerable respect.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7666 on: July 08, 2019, 05:16:38 AM »
It's not xenophobic.  I prefer citizenship before voting.  I am fine with making better paths to citizenship regardless of color or creed.

Now, how I feel about extreme liberal Democrats?  That might reach xenophobia and paranoia.  Don't be so naive to think that people will not manipulate the vote.  People where I live have been busted for 'smokes for votes', tire slashing of the opposition's get out the vote vehicles, and other schemes.  You'd better believe that very politically motivated and low-morals people would take advantage if they think they can get away with it.  I support Voter ID.  I am OK with offering free IDs to anyone who needs them and has documentation.  I do not support, for example, voting among people serving time in jail, but after the time is served, sure, go vote.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 05:19:04 AM by KBecks »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7667 on: July 08, 2019, 05:20:15 AM »
What puzzles me about the immigration issue is that by all the metrics that DJT seems to be interested in, this administration is doing worse than either Obama or GWB.  Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.  Wouldn't this suggest that the policies of the last 2.5 years are having an effect contrary to their stated purpose?

Put another way, how much worse must things get (or how much longer will things need to be this bad) before we go a different route?

Trump's supporters seem more impressed with claims than evidence.  Trump's great at using this to manipulate them.  Until he tells 'em to shift course there will not be any support for a shift in course, regardless of the actual outcomes achieved by his policies.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7668 on: July 08, 2019, 05:23:18 AM »
Obama was great for the stock market.  Trump has been great for the stock market.  Most of the credit should not go to the politicians, though.

The mortgage crisis crushed the markets in 2008-2009.  From there, it's been a strong and steady ride up.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7669 on: July 08, 2019, 05:25:08 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took about 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

This level of deliberate ignorance is breathtaking.

You're just trolling at this point and don't really deserve a response with that attitude.  What I was posted was a fact.  I could provide references as well.  But I don't have time to do that for you, so google is your friend.  Welcome to the interwebs.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7670 on: July 08, 2019, 05:27:38 AM »
The drama at the border effectively scores points for Dems, and they know it.  That's why there's all the outrage now and AOC doing photo shoots, when no one cared under Obama. That's why you had activists hoping for a major border conflict with the caravan, and outside support of the caravan. It was not, er humanitarian.  It was and is political.

Note that this peaked in 2018, before the mid-terms. Politicians and activists piled on and wanted the drama, wanted the photos, etc. etc.  Solutions?  No.  Drama?  Yes.

Honestly, it works.  I wrote letters to my representatives about child separation. Now, I hope. But you cannot trust that all the images are real.  People died at the border under Obama too, no one cared then.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 05:37:43 AM by KBecks »

the_gastropod

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7671 on: July 08, 2019, 05:53:48 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took about 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

This level of deliberate ignorance is breathtaking.

You're just trolling at this point and don't really deserve a response with that attitude.  What I was posted was a fact.  I could provide references as well.  But I don't have time to do that for you, so google is your friend.  Welcome to the interwebs.

Dude, what? Who's trolling? You post nothing but political hackery and misinformation, and nereo's the troll? Please.

Regarding Obama's vs Trump's "stache growing", please let's just look at these facts you absurdly claim support your claim: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2018/05/01/the-stock-market-under-trump-vs-obama/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.54a2a03a0bcf

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7672 on: July 08, 2019, 06:10:01 AM »
 

And register every new open border person to vote so they can flip Texas blue.


Unless you have reputable sources for this statement, I'm going to regard it as a level of paranoid xenophobia which is extremely disappointing in someone for whom I had previously had considerable respect.
It's not xenophobic.  I prefer citizenship before voting.  I am fine with making better paths to citizenship regardless of color or creed.

So find me the sources which say that anyone of any political stripe is systematically trying to register non-citizens for the vote in Texas and getting them to vote.  And then find the approval of the Democratic party to those actions.   Because non-citizens voting is a criminal offence and inciting people to commit that criminal offence might also be an offence in itself.  So before you start accusing people of something so serious you need some evidence.  And I don't think you have it, I think all you have is a kneejerk reaction to some very nasty xenophobia and right wing demagoguery.  And spreading that xenophobia and right wing demagoguery is even worse than just believing it.




KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7673 on: July 08, 2019, 06:17:01 AM »
OK.  Democrats make me nervous. Not everyday people who vote Democrat, it's the professionals squick me out.  I'm biased!  I like a lot of regular-people democrats.  I like and trust some of our local Democrats.  But power-hungry is scary, and I guess that's true on either side of the aisle.

I think that most conservatives are fine with improving immigration and the path to citizenship -- make a better system.  Some people are very ugly racists, but that's not very many, and I believe they exist in both parties.  I haven't met a lot of real, hateful, believe-in-inferiority racists, but I have met a few along the way of life and they are sickening.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:22:56 AM by KBecks »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7674 on: July 08, 2019, 06:22:12 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took about 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

This level of deliberate ignorance is breathtaking.

You're just trolling at this point and don't really deserve a response with that attitude.  What I was posted was a fact.  I could provide references as well.  But I don't have time to do that for you, so google is your friend.  Welcome to the interwebs.

Actually your stash dropped as a result of continued Bush era policies and decisions which caused a massive global recession. (Pointing out the irony considering you claim to be scared of what Dems may do to the economy).

You also use the word "in contrast" meaning you are comparing the first 2.5 years in office of both Presidents. Of course that isn't logical because the previous admins policies have a spillover affect lasting typically 1-2 years or more. Obama inherited the largest global recession since the great depression. In contrast Trump inherited a roaring economy and a continually rising Stock Market and falling unemployment. Basically Obama inherited a shit sandwich and Trump inherited a golden nugget. He just had to not fuck it up. He sure is trying though.

You know what, let's go ahead and compare the market anyways, shall we?
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/business/stock-market-by-president/index.html

(Those darn Dems really screw that market up don't they?)

So yeah, you are trolling. You are trolling by continuing to give all the praise to Trump for things he is not responsible for or only marginally responsible for, and bash Obama for things Obama is not responsible for. None of us are going to heap praise on Trump, as you insist we do. Quite frankly I don't give a shit if market returns reach 500% under Trump, if it comes at the expense of torturing and killing more brown people, continuing to break the law, demanding total subservience and shitting all over the Constitution.

Perhaps you should be thanking Obama and Clinton.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 07:04:44 AM by MasterStache »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7675 on: July 08, 2019, 06:44:58 AM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.

Ummm again, no!

"Endemic violence and crime continue to be a driving force for Central Americans leaving their homes. According to a report from Doctors Without Borders, the violence experienced in the region was not unlike that seen by people living through war."

"In August, Honduras declared an emergency in the Dry Corridor, a tropical dry forest strip vulnerable to climate change that stretches from southern Mexico to Panama, where it's estimated that 82% of maize and bean crops were lost."

http://www.fao.org/americas/noticias/ver/en/c/1150344/

Now of course if Trump were intelligent he would at least try to deal with immigration at the root causes (rising violence and food shortages/insecuity due to climate change.) Instead he is cutting of aid to those countries and continuing to exacerbate climate change. The climate change issue seems to be very ironic considering people within his own administration have been warning him about it being a national security issue. But hey let's ignore facts and just keep pretending it doesn't exist. We'll just say the immigrants love our thriving economy and want a piece of the action. More red meat for the base. 




 

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7676 on: July 08, 2019, 08:00:37 AM »
It's a go-to for liberals to say that every Republican president ever is an idiot.  When was our last smart Republican president?  Conversely, every Democrat is so very bright.  How is that?

Bush Jr. was pretty dumb.  Trump actually seems to be worse.  I'd say the last Republican president who appeared intelligent was Bush Sr.  It's not like there aren't intelligent Republican candidates though (Romney was a smart guy - that's probably why he came up with 'Obamacare').

I don't think every Democratic candidate is very smart.  Especially not this year.

With George W. Bush, there were quite a few stories from people who interacted with him in private that he was smart. The "country simpleton" act was just politics.

I'm just not hearing stories like this about Trump.

arebelspy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7677 on: July 08, 2019, 08:33:26 AM »
The dashed line is when Trump saved America from Obama's disastrous economic policies.

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Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7678 on: July 08, 2019, 08:40:29 AM »
It's a go-to for liberals to say that every Republican president ever is an idiot.  When was our last smart Republican president?  Conversely, every Democrat is so very bright.  How is that?

Bush Jr. was pretty dumb.  Trump actually seems to be worse.  I'd say the last Republican president who appeared intelligent was Bush Sr.  It's not like there aren't intelligent Republican candidates though (Romney was a smart guy - that's probably why he came up with 'Obamacare').

I don't think every Democratic candidate is very smart.  Especially not this year.

With George W. Bush, there were quite a few stories from people who interacted with him in private that he was smart. The "country simpleton" act was just politics.

I'm just not hearing stories like this about Trump.

Ya, it's not something I've read about in much detail but I thought W was quite intelligent in terms of IQ. I vaguely remember something about him being a speed reader or reading a lot, like more than a book/week. He wasn't the best public speaker and he did some goofball stuff but I think he was intelligent. He graduated from Harvard and Yale.

I picked up a book of "Bushisms" at Goodwill the other day and while he did make quite a few errors in his speech I was kind of disappointed. There were a few funny ones but for the most part they just don't compare to the nonsense that Trump spouts. Trump contradicts himself in the span of a few sentences and then denies it with a straight face, all while making several grammatical mistakes and mispronouncing a couple words. At least Bush Jr. could laugh at himself when he messed up.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7679 on: July 08, 2019, 08:53:21 AM »
It's a go-to for liberals to say that every Republican president ever is an idiot.  When was our last smart Republican president?  Conversely, every Democrat is so very bright.  How is that?

Bush Jr. was pretty dumb.  Trump actually seems to be worse.  I'd say the last Republican president who appeared intelligent was Bush Sr.  It's not like there aren't intelligent Republican candidates though (Romney was a smart guy - that's probably why he came up with 'Obamacare').

I don't think every Democratic candidate is very smart.  Especially not this year.

With George W. Bush, there were quite a few stories from people who interacted with him in private that he was smart. The "country simpleton" act was just politics.

I'm just not hearing stories like this about Trump.

That actually raises more questions for me then.  If Bush Jr was a secret genius, why does the president of the US feel the need to act like he's stupid to gain the support of his party?  Seems to point to a something very wrong all on it's own.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7680 on: July 08, 2019, 09:00:03 AM »
The dashed line is when Trump saved America from Obama's disastrous economic policies.


Curious, why did you stop the graph in 2017.  We are in 2019

arebelspy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7681 on: July 08, 2019, 09:04:14 AM »
The dashed line is when Trump saved America from Obama's disastrous economic policies.


Curious, why did you stop the graph in 2017.  We are in 2019
I didn't make it, just grabbed it from an NYT article. I saw one updated a few months ago in early 2019, but couldn't find it with a quick Google. It looks basically the same--going up and the the right at about the same angle.

The point remains exactly the same.
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arebelspy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7682 on: July 08, 2019, 09:13:14 AM »
Here's through June 3, 2019.



It's just a direct comparison.

I like the other graph, because it shows Trump's economy is just an extension of what Obama left, but if you want more recent data/comparison, here you go.

Oh, and let's not forget Obama started with a far worse economic position than Trump inherited. Or you can spin it as "his had more room to grow!"

Either way, claiming Trump's done some amazing job for our economy while claiming Obama/Dems are a disaster seems beyond disingenuous.
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Enigma

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7683 on: July 08, 2019, 09:16:50 AM »
The dashed line is when Trump saved America from Obama's disastrous economic policies.
According to the Feds, Obama's economy couldn't support fed rate hikes.  After Trump won the election in Nov '16, the hikes starting coming.

Dec 16, 2008 — 0.0–0.25
Dec 16, 2015 — 0.25–0.50
Dec 14, 2016 — 0.50–0.75
Mar 15, 2017 — 0.75–1.00
Jun 14, 2017 — 1.00–1.25
Dec 13, 2017 — 1.25–1.50
Mar 21, 2018 — 1.50–1.75
Jun 13, 2018 — 1.75–2.00
Sep 26, 2018 — 2.00–2.25
Dec 19, 2018 — 2.25–2.50

the_gastropod

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7684 on: July 08, 2019, 09:38:13 AM »
According to the Feds, Obama's economy couldn't support fed rate hikes.  After Trump won the election in Nov '16, the hikes starting coming.

Dec 16, 2008 — 0.0–0.25
Dec 16, 2015 — 0.25–0.50
Dec 14, 2016 — 0.50–0.75
Mar 15, 2017 — 0.75–1.00
Jun 14, 2017 — 1.00–1.25
Dec 13, 2017 — 1.25–1.50
Mar 21, 2018 — 1.50–1.75
Jun 13, 2018 — 1.75–2.00
Sep 26, 2018 — 2.00–2.25
Dec 19, 2018 — 2.25–2.50

What economic policies have made "Trump's economy" so strong?

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7685 on: July 08, 2019, 09:42:24 AM »
Perhaps a fairer comparison between Obama's and Trump's "influence" on the stock market would start with their elections, rather than inaugurations.

From S&P 500 Return Calculator, with Dividend Reinvestment, one finds from the tables below...pretty much no difference.

Neither has been significantly worse nor better than the other by this measure. 

That won't stop those affected by Obama Derangement Syndrome or Trump Derangement Syndrome from various rants, but at least by this measure...they're the same. :)

MeasurementNominalReal
Total S&P 500 Return36.787%31.126%
Annualized S&P 500 Return12.065%10.356%
Total S&P 500 Return (Dividends Reinvested)45.644%39.617%
Annualized S&P 500 Return (Dividends Reinvested)14.651%12.903%
Total S&P 500 Return39.542%32.199%
Annualized S&P 500 Return12.881%10.684%
Total S&P 500 Return (Dividends Reinvested)46.190%38.497%
Annualized S&P 500 Return (Dividends Reinvested)14.807%12.573%

ETA: numbers are from October of their election year to July, three years later.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 09:48:35 AM by MDM »

Enigma

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7686 on: July 08, 2019, 09:49:47 AM »
What economic policies have made "Trump's economy" so strong?
According to the feds, mass deregulation, record low unemployement rates, decreasing under-employment rates, more people coming back to the labor market, record profits, increasing housing prices, increase wage growth....  Every time the feds raised rates they cited a very strong economy.  Every time the feds discussed rate hikes with Obama as president, they gave a negative or neutral outlook to the economy.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7687 on: July 08, 2019, 09:55:27 AM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.  And the problem is democrats are not helpful in preventing these illegals from entering the country or deporting them.  We need to change the asylum laws as well which allow illegals to exploit our laws for their own gain.  Democrats are putting votes and partisan politics over border security and protecting American citizens.  It's not surprising that some illegals die making their way to this country, but they have themselves to blame.  They should use legal processes to immigrate.

Trump would be even stronger on border security if all of the necessary funds were approved and legislation was passed to address these matters, but the democrats are obstructionists on the issue.  I am certain all democrats would be weak on border security and immigration.  Some of them have made it very clear that they are for open borders without actually saying "open borders".

So, to sum up:  Trump gets all the credit for the economy, and the crisis with immigration is all democrats fault?

I don't see where I said "Trump" gets all the credit.  But the crisis could be averted if not for democrats.   But I blame our immigration and asylums laws on previous administrations as well, so I don't put that solely on the democrats, but they are more of the obstructionists on this issue today.

It's pretty bitter to swallow, but it is what it is.

They don't come out and say "open borders", but that that's what they want to move to, such as stating that they want to decriminalize an illegal alien crossing the border into the American homeland and coddle them with taxpayer dollars until they can find them a home here in the U.S. paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

Entering the US illegally is not a criminal offense. If it were, all of those people in cages would be constitutionally obligated to have an attorney.

Edit: My bad, *remaining* in the US illegally is not a criminal offense.
https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/

Quote
Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.

It seems you are referring to aliens seeking asylum. People expressly seeking asylum at entry points are entering the country legally and their presence is not a crime.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 10:07:31 AM by JLee »

Enigma

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7688 on: July 08, 2019, 10:00:09 AM »
Entering the US illegally is not a criminal offense. If it were, all of those people in cages would be constitutionally obligated to have an attorney.
Entering the US illegally is illegal.  Entering the US territory illegally amounts to a criminal offense as per the stipulations of US Code Title 8 Section 1325.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7689 on: July 08, 2019, 10:01:37 AM »
It's not xenophobic.  I prefer citizenship before voting.  I am fine with making better paths to citizenship regardless of color or creed.

Now, how I feel about extreme liberal Democrats?  That might reach xenophobia and paranoia.  Don't be so naive to think that people will not manipulate the vote.  People where I live have been busted for 'smokes for votes', tire slashing of the opposition's get out the vote vehicles, and other schemes.  You'd better believe that very politically motivated and low-morals people would take advantage if they think they can get away with it.  I support Voter ID.  I am OK with offering free IDs to anyone who needs them and has documentation.  I do not support, for example, voting among people serving time in jail, but after the time is served, sure, go vote.

Oh hey, you've found another great way to allow racist states to suppress their voting minority!

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7690 on: July 08, 2019, 10:06:45 AM »
Entering the US illegally is not a criminal offense. If it were, all of those people in cages would be constitutionally obligated to have an attorney.
Entering the US illegally is illegal.  Entering the US territory illegally amounts to a criminal offense as per the stipulations of US Code Title 8 Section 1325.

Yes, however in this case the poster specifically referenced asylum law. Asylum seekers entering the country at border crossings are doing so legally and their mere presence in the country thereafter is not criminal, regardless of their citizenship status.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7691 on: July 08, 2019, 10:11:15 AM »
It's not xenophobic.  I prefer citizenship before voting.  I am fine with making better paths to citizenship regardless of color or creed.

Now, how I feel about extreme liberal Democrats?  That might reach xenophobia and paranoia.  Don't be so naive to think that people will not manipulate the vote.  People where I live have been busted for 'smokes for votes', tire slashing of the opposition's get out the vote vehicles, and other schemes.  You'd better believe that very politically motivated and low-morals people would take advantage if they think they can get away with it.  I support Voter ID.  I am OK with offering free IDs to anyone who needs them and has documentation.  I do not support, for example, voting among people serving time in jail, but after the time is served, sure, go vote.

Oh hey, you've found another great way to allow racist states to suppress their voting minority!

Most states do not allow voting from prison. Discrimination against criminals serving punishment is not necessarily racist.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7692 on: July 08, 2019, 10:12:18 AM »
It's not xenophobic.  I prefer citizenship before voting.  I am fine with making better paths to citizenship regardless of color or creed.

Now, how I feel about extreme liberal Democrats?  That might reach xenophobia and paranoia.  Don't be so naive to think that people will not manipulate the vote.  People where I live have been busted for 'smokes for votes', tire slashing of the opposition's get out the vote vehicles, and other schemes.  You'd better believe that very politically motivated and low-morals people would take advantage if they think they can get away with it.  I support Voter ID.  I am OK with offering free IDs to anyone who needs them and has documentation.  I do not support, for example, voting among people serving time in jail, but after the time is served, sure, go vote.

Oh hey, you've found another great way to allow racist states to suppress their voting minority!

Most states do not allow voting from prison. Discrimination against criminals serving punishment is not necessarily racist.

Do you mean jail or do you mean prison?

Enigma

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7693 on: July 08, 2019, 10:17:52 AM »
Yes, however in this case the poster specifically referenced asylum law. Asylum seekers entering the country at border crossings are doing so legally and their mere presence in the country thereafter is not criminal, regardless of their citizenship status.
90% of Migrants Seeking Asylum in the US Never Show Up for their Court Date June 12, 2019 ~ Ann Corcoran That is the statistic given by the acting Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security...  IMO - At that point their mere presence in the country is criminal and illegal.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7694 on: July 08, 2019, 10:31:04 AM »
Ok, now Trump says he is going to lower US drug prices to the level of the lowest in the world...by executive order.

Yeah right.   I expect this to work about as well as the building of the wall.

I don't know why you would stop at drug prices though since they only make up about 10% of the cost of US care.   An executive order limiting doctor pay would be something else he could try.   The average salary for a anesthesiologist is $357,000...in 2015!

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7695 on: July 08, 2019, 10:36:17 AM »
Yes, however in this case the poster specifically referenced asylum law. Asylum seekers entering the country at border crossings are doing so legally and their mere presence in the country thereafter is not criminal, regardless of their citizenship status.
90% of Migrants Seeking Asylum in the US Never Show Up for their Court Date June 12, 2019 ~ Ann Corcoran That is the statistic given by the acting Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security...  IMO - At that point their mere presence in the country is criminal and illegal.

https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/

the_gastropod

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7696 on: July 08, 2019, 10:48:00 AM »
Yes, however in this case the poster specifically referenced asylum law. Asylum seekers entering the country at border crossings are doing so legally and their mere presence in the country thereafter is not criminal, regardless of their citizenship status.
90% of Migrants Seeking Asylum in the US Never Show Up for their Court Date June 12, 2019 ~ Ann Corcoran That is the statistic given by the acting Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security...  IMO - At that point their mere presence in the country is criminal and illegal.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. In this case, the exact opposite is true, ~90% of asylum seekers *do* show up to their court date. Source: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/1107056/download#page=34

oldtoyota

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7697 on: July 08, 2019, 11:27:22 AM »
Illegal border crossings have skyrocketed during his tenure, as has the cost of enforcement and the number of migrant deaths.

With the Trump economy going gangbusters and so many jobs available, it's like a magnet to illegals.

Ummm again, no!

"Endemic violence and crime continue to be a driving force for Central Americans leaving their homes. According to a report from Doctors Without Borders, the violence experienced in the region was not unlike that seen by people living through war."

"In August, Honduras declared an emergency in the Dry Corridor, a tropical dry forest strip vulnerable to climate change that stretches from southern Mexico to Panama, where it's estimated that 82% of maize and bean crops were lost."

http://www.fao.org/americas/noticias/ver/en/c/1150344/

Now of course if Trump were intelligent he would at least try to deal with immigration at the root causes (rising violence and food shortages/insecuity due to climate change.) Instead he is cutting of aid to those countries and continuing to exacerbate climate change. The climate change issue seems to be very ironic considering people within his own administration have been warning him about it being a national security issue. But hey let's ignore facts and just keep pretending it doesn't exist. We'll just say the immigrants love our thriving economy and want a piece of the action. More red meat for the base.


Thank you for sharing this. I like facts.

oldtoyota

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7698 on: July 08, 2019, 11:34:08 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took abut 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

You mean locking up people seeking asylum?
You mean working with known foreign agents like Michael Flynn?
Or maybe hiring Paul Manafort (who his own daughter says kills people).
Or maybe hiring white supremacists like Stephen Miller and the Breitbart news founder to create policy?
And Lord knows what happened with Trump at Jeffrey Epstein's...
And let us not forget Roger Stone...

Yes. Trump is a real gem. The very best with tremendous words.

But glad your stache grew.



FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7699 on: July 08, 2019, 11:44:39 AM »

I know none of them would be as strong on immigration as Trump, and I'm afraid what they might do to our rolling economy.  Trump has really helped build my stash and many other people's stashes on this forum.

My 'stache grew pretty well under Obama, too.  In fact, it did slightly better overall (to date).  Just sayin' ...

My stash dropped to a low point under Obama.  It eventually recovered those losses, but it took about 4 years.  The Obama recovery was the slowest recovery ever from a recession.  In contrast, the Trump is economy is rolling at a high level, the lowest unemployment in 50 years.  Mustachians should be praising Trump for what he's done for you.

This level of deliberate ignorance is breathtaking.

You're just trolling at this point and don't really deserve a response with that attitude.  What I was posted was a fact.  I could provide references as well.  But I don't have time to do that for you, so google is your friend.  Welcome to the interwebs.

Dude, what? Who's trolling? You post nothing but political hackery and misinformation, and nereo's the troll? Please.

^wtf?  What are you talking about?  I never called nereo a troll nor even suggest he was trolling.  Where did you come up with that nonsense?