Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 808881 times)

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7000 on: May 01, 2019, 12:44:04 PM »
Speculation...  A full Trump Presidency has the ability to reshape the European socialist countries into becoming more capitalist.  I would expect to see a major change with EU member states and EEA/EU candidate states.

Brexit, EURO currency, PIIGS (struggling European countries), Spain (Barcelona trying to break away), and mass muslim migrations.  4 more years of a Trump presidency and a prospering US economy could be seen as the grass being greener on the other side.  More overseas unrest...

A prospering economy in a country that gives a big "fuck you" to immigrants doesn't sound all that enticing, really.

He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7001 on: May 01, 2019, 12:50:15 PM »
Speculation...  A full Trump Presidency has the ability to reshape the European socialist countries into becoming more capitalist.  I would expect to see a major change with EU member states and EEA/EU candidate states.

Brexit, EURO currency, PIIGS (struggling European countries), Spain (Barcelona trying to break away), and mass muslim migrations.  4 more years of a Trump presidency and a prospering US economy could be seen as the grass being greener on the other side.  More overseas unrest...

A prospering economy in a country that gives a big "fuck you" to immigrants doesn't sound all that enticing, really.

Especially not when the "prospering economy" is only propped up by Trump throwing gasoline on an already-raging fire (deficit-funded tax cuts, mostly for the ultra-rich of course) and appointing know-nothing stooges to the (supposedly apolitical) Federal Reserve to keep interest rates near 0%.

Seriously, I can't imagine how insulated in their own little bubble someone would have to be to think that basically anyone overseas thinks well of the US in the age of Trump or wants to be like us. Enigma must not know literally anyone in Europe if that's his prediction.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7002 on: May 01, 2019, 12:54:50 PM »
Speculation...  A full Trump Presidency has the ability to reshape the European socialist countries into becoming more capitalist.  I would expect to see a major change with EU member states and EEA/EU candidate states.

Brexit, EURO currency, PIIGS (struggling European countries), Spain (Barcelona trying to break away), and mass muslim migrations.  4 more years of a Trump presidency and a prospering US economy could be seen as the grass being greener on the other side.  More overseas unrest...

A prospering economy in a country that gives a big "fuck you" to immigrants doesn't sound all that enticing, really.

He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Reminder: seeking asylum is legal. You may not like that it's legal. It would require Congress to make it illegal. Why didn't the unified GOP Congress do so when Trump would have signed it from 2017-2019? I do not know.

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7003 on: May 01, 2019, 12:56:31 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 12:58:50 PM by sherr »

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7004 on: May 01, 2019, 01:05:16 PM »
When my family travel overseas they are constantly meeting people in other countries who are slightly horrified about what is going on with politics in the US. There are plenty of people I chat with regularly on these forums in other countries who have similar views. Granted, anecdotes and not an exhaustive survey of the world, but I would be rather surprised to find mainstream people in developed nations viewing our political situation as favorable.

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7005 on: May 01, 2019, 01:06:06 PM »
Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming.

Incidentally, by cutting aid to foreign countries Trump is (probably intentionally) making those Next Few Waves much worse. The US doesn't give money to other countries because it's altruistic. We give money to people because it furthers our aims, whether that be making them dependent on us and willing to do what we say, improving stability in a region we want to be stable for selfish reasons (like oil prices), or (in the case of a lot of South/Central American countries) because it's far cheaper for us to help them stabilize their own problems than it is for us to deal with the "waves" of people trying to come here to seek out a better life.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7006 on: May 01, 2019, 01:20:24 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?

Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.

Families were deported and separated under Obama (cue OMG whataboutism.....) but Obama had more to do with the establishment of the DACA which the courts stopped Trump from fixing.

Your hurt feelings and in-warranted anger, and need to lash out means you cannot have an adult discussion.  A strawman, is an invalid argument with a logical fallacy. Look it up, it is not a term to describe something said that hurts your feelings.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7007 on: May 01, 2019, 01:43:31 PM »

He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

The bolded portion is false.  Before 1882 (The "Chinese Exclusion Act") there were zero immigration laws preventing foreigners from entering and living in the US - if you could get here somehow you could could live here. Quick count gives ~20 presidents who allowed anyone in who could walk here.  Even then the restrictions focused Chinese, on the 'criminally insane' and people incapable of taking care of themselves.   

Per the earliest naturalization acts, anyone who resided in the US was entitled to citizenship after residing here for a number of years. The first "real" attempts to limit the total number of immigrants annually didn't occur until the 1920s, and focused on European and Asian immigrants.  We did not start limiting immigration from central America until the 1965 (the Hart-Celler Act, - or - "people who can walk here").

As others have said, those seeking asylum are -by definition - surrendering to authorities under the premise that our existing laws permit asylum seekers refuge.  Our current asylum laws were largely in response to the holocaust in WWII and subsequent commitment that we would never again send persons fleeing mortal danger back to their home countries.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7008 on: May 01, 2019, 01:47:01 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?

Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.

Families were deported and separated under Obama (cue OMG whataboutism.....) but Obama had more to do with the establishment of the DACA which the courts stopped Trump from fixing.

Your hurt feelings and in-warranted anger, and need to lash out means you cannot have an adult discussion.  A strawman, is an invalid argument with a logical fallacy. Look it up, it is not a term to describe something said that hurts your feelings.

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.

Second, you're dead wrong. This is a clear cut example of a straw man. You said you find it ridiculous that Trump should be expected to allow anyone who can walk to the border to come in. You're right about that, that would be ridiculous if anyone was making that argument, but no one is*. You're arguing against a non-existent position. That's the definition of a straw man argument. If you'd like to refute that accusation the next step would be to present examples where someone takes that position.

*I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks this, but it's certainly not the standard position of any group relevant to this conversation.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:51:26 PM by Dabnasty »

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7009 on: May 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?

Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.

Families were deported and separated under Obama (cue OMG whataboutism.....) but Obama had more to do with the establishment of the DACA which the courts stopped Trump from fixing.

Your hurt feelings and in-warranted anger, and need to lash out means you cannot have an adult discussion.  A strawman, is an invalid argument with a logical fallacy. Look it up, it is not a term to describe something said that hurts your feelings.

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.

Second, you're dead wrong. This is a clear cut example of a straw man. You said you find it ridiculous that Trump should be expected to allow anyone who can walk to the border to come in. You're right about that, that would be ridiculous if anyone was making that argument, but no one is*. You're arguing against a non-existent position. That's the definition of a straw man argument. If you'd like to refute that accusation the next step would be to present examples where someone takes that position.

*I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks this, but it's certainly not the standard position of any group relevant to this conversation.

My apologies. I know that the Fuck You Go Die was not directed at me, but I did see that as a tad hostile.
Several here have pointed out that anyone can come here and request asylum, key word anyone. Yes, the Constitution does say that we let people in to declare asylum. Again, Fact not fallacy, therefore the "Strawman label" is grossly overused. I argue that the border should be secured, and that they should come in, at a legitimate control point and only then should the Constitutional process begin. That is a legal existent position. Fact.

I did enjoy the history lesson from Nereo. Thank you for sharing.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7010 on: May 01, 2019, 02:16:21 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that.

Going back to your original statement, are you unaware of his proposals to cut legal immigration?

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/30/trump-legal-immigration-republicans-378041

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAISE_Act

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7011 on: May 01, 2019, 02:17:31 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?

Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.

Fact: Illegal border hopping is a misdemeanor. A minor wrongdoing. Like Jaywalking. Tearing your children away from you is a disproportionate response.

Fact: Before Trump changed the rules out from under people, it was common practice to first safely cross the boarder and then surrender at a Port of Entry and apply for asylum. And then families would stay together as they await the asylum decision (cue Republicans complaining about "catch and release").

Fact: The thing that changed was that Trump instituted a "Zero Tolerance Policy" to immediately arrest, imprison (and therefore separate the children), convict, and deport anyone suspected of misdemeanor border hopping.

Families were deported and separated under Obama (cue OMG whataboutism.....)

Yes, Obama did deport people when it made sense which included separating some families. But you're acting like the "Zero Tolerance Policy" never even happened, or that we don't know video interviews before it even happened from Trump's DHS Secretary Kelly and the long timeline of events leading up to the "Zero Tolerance Policy" that it was planned and intentional (and cruel) as a deterrent to misdemeanor border-hoppers.

By the way, the actual factual numbers on illegal border crossings are that we're on a several-decades long downtrend and approaching numbers so low that they haven't been seen since the 70s. There was no "crisis" in 2018 that prompted the Trump Administration's severe response. Except of course that 2018's numbers were shaping up to be higher than 2017's, and you can't have a tough-on-immigration president looking weak in an election year, can you?

but Obama had more to do with the establishment of the DACA which the courts stopped Trump from fixing.

Oh, pretty please, educate me. How on earth was Trump going to "fix" DACA but then stopped by the courts? I remember a lot about Trump explicitly declaring that he wanted to "end" DACA (without having any plan for replacement), and then trying to use the fates of innocent children as a bargaining chip a few times, but I don't remember anything about him wanting to fix anything. Unless of course by "fix" you really mean "end".

Your hurt feelings and un-warranted anger, and need to lash out means you cannot have an adult discussion.  A strawman, is an invalid argument with a logical fallacy. Look it up, it is not a term to describe something said that hurts your feelings.

Lol, and where exactly was I "lashing out though hurt feelings"? Specifically, a Strawman is a logical fallacy where you misrepresent what the other person was saying in order to attack the easier-to-attack misrepresentation instead of the actual argument. You know, like exactly what you were doing.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7012 on: May 01, 2019, 02:27:58 PM »
He only wants to give that big "FY" to those entering illegally, and I am ok with that. Especially seeing the next few massive waves coming. I disagree that that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in. No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Yet another strawman. No one ever said that we should have an open border, that's just the Republican Party's dishonest propagandistic representation of Democrats. Always has been, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense.

How about not intentionally tearing families apart with no intention of reuniting them as a "disincentive to others"? How about having a reasonable asylum program instead of just rejecting everyone and giving them a big fat "Fuck You, go die!"? How about not demanding that we slash legal immigration?

Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.

Families were deported and separated under Obama (cue OMG whataboutism.....) but Obama had more to do with the establishment of the DACA which the courts stopped Trump from fixing.

Your hurt feelings and in-warranted anger, and need to lash out means you cannot have an adult discussion.  A strawman, is an invalid argument with a logical fallacy. Look it up, it is not a term to describe something said that hurts your feelings.

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.

Second, you're dead wrong. This is a clear cut example of a straw man. You said you find it ridiculous that Trump should be expected to allow anyone who can walk to the border to come in. You're right about that, that would be ridiculous if anyone was making that argument, but no one is*. You're arguing against a non-existent position. That's the definition of a straw man argument. If you'd like to refute that accusation the next step would be to present examples where someone takes that position.

*I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks this, but it's certainly not the standard position of any group relevant to this conversation.

My apologies. I know that the Fuck You Go Die was not directed at me, but I did see that as a tad hostile.
Several here have pointed out that anyone can come here and request asylum, key word anyone. Yes, the Constitution does say that we let people in to declare asylum. Again, Fact not fallacy, therefore the "Strawman label" is grossly overused. I argue that the border should be secured, and that they should come in, at a legitimate control point and only then should the Constitutional process begin. That is a legal existent position. Fact.

I did enjoy the history lesson from Nereo. Thank you for sharing.

So I want to be clear here, your stance now is that some people are in fact of the opinion that anyone who can walk here should be allowed in and as evidence of that you present the Constitution and yourself? Oh and as an extension of that you're saying "[You] find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...[follow the constitution]"?

I think it was clear to anyone reading that when you said "I disagree that anyone that can walk here should be allowed in" you meant "allowed in [to stay]" not "allowed in [to request asylum]". Otherwise your comments contradict one another.

Now, can you give us an example of someone who argues anyone who can walk to the border should be allowed in to stay?

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7013 on: May 01, 2019, 03:10:02 PM »

They need the negative publicity from Hillary's emails the Russian Collusion, even if it wasn't there to the degree they promised. They need people to hate the candidate President and believe that emails in a server bad?? he worked with Russia, regardless of what the 2 year investigation found.

Dude, harping about Hillary's emails was an effective campaign strategy for Trump. So effective that we are apparently going to have yet another investigation into why a private email server that was never breached is apparently a bigger Senate concern than Jared texting MBS, Trump using an unsecured phone to ask his buddies for advice, Jared being pushed to get a national security clearance, and evidence of Russian attempts to hack our election infrastructure.   Oh, and Trump paying off a porn star, Trump having an illegal foundation, Trump having a scam university, etc.  Well, I don't have all day so I'll stop there. Instead, we have to watch the 5000th rerun of an old Hillary's emails episode starring Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham.

So when Mueller draws a circle with a big arrow pointing to Congress around 10 counts of obstruction, Dems are supposed to roll over for reasons? Nah.  I think we should take notes from the Trump campaign.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7014 on: May 01, 2019, 03:37:51 PM »
I just know that Mueller recommended no charges on collusion and was a bit vague on obstruction.
That is interesting, because I read (when the report came out) he had at least 5 clear cases of obstruction of justice and is basically begging for congress to use this.

Also Mueller is extremely dissatisified with Barr's summary, according to this:
https://boingboing.net/2019/04/30/barr-coverup-mueller-told-a-g.html

This^

Mueller cannot recommend charges for obstruction since that is the job of Congress. He can however, conclude that there was no obstruction, yet he did no such thing. It's too bad the Republicans aren't as concerned about the obstruction as Dems. I am a little confused as to why any person would see focusing on the Prez breaking the law as a bad thing. Ehh, political blinders I suppose.

Mueller and his team did not investigate “collusion” as no such legal term exist. Rather tough to recommend charges on something you didn’t investigate.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 05:44:15 PM by MasterStache »

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7015 on: May 01, 2019, 05:59:54 PM »

Several here have pointed out that anyone can come here and request asylum, key word anyone. Yes, the Constitution does say that we let people in to declare asylum. Again, Fact not fallacy, therefore the "Strawman label" is grossly overused. I argue that the border should be secured, and that they should come in, at a legitimate control point and only then should the Constitutional process begin. That is a legal existent position. Fact.

I did enjoy the history lesson from Nereo. Thank you for sharing.
While I think context (history) is important for cultural understanding, the point I was making was that our current control on immigration emerged only within the last several decades.  Your earlier assertion was wrong; many past US presidents have allowed unrestricted immigration because this was the convention until well into the 20th century.

No, the constitution does not say that we let people in to declare asylum.  The constitution does not address asylum seeking at all.  Our founding fathers considered presence in this country synonymous with being a member of the US population. 

You are asserting constitutional law where there is none.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7016 on: May 02, 2019, 05:23:51 AM »
I like this article.

I suggest moving that into a more relevant thread, or starting a new thread of your own if you wish to discuss.  As is, it's too tangential to the subject of this thread.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7017 on: May 02, 2019, 05:29:43 AM »
I like this article.

I suggest moving that into a more relevant thread, or starting a new thread of your own if you wish to discuss.  As is, it's too tangential to the subject of this thread.

I thought it seemed relevant to the Constitutional Rights of immigrants, as it was being discussed, but if a mod thinks it is inappropriate, I happily yield....

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7018 on: May 02, 2019, 05:34:25 AM »
I like this article.

I suggest moving that into a more relevant thread, or starting a new thread of your own if you wish to discuss.  As is, it's too tangential to the subject of this thread.

I thought it seemed relevant to the Constitutional Rights of immigrants, as it was being discussed, but if a mod thinks it is inappropriate, I happily yield....

The thread topic is the Trump Presidency, not constitutional law.  As there is no direct link between this administration and the legal question in the article it is off subject.
The post is still visible (you can remove it by clicking "remove" in the top-right corner of the post).

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7019 on: May 02, 2019, 05:54:20 AM »
I like this article.

I suggest moving that into a more relevant thread, or starting a new thread of your own if you wish to discuss.  As is, it's too tangential to the subject of this thread.

I thought it seemed relevant to the Constitutional Rights of immigrants, as it was being discussed, but if a mod thinks it is inappropriate, I happily yield....

The thread topic is the Trump Presidency, not constitutional law.  As there is no direct link between this administration and the legal question in the article it is off subject.
The post is still visible (you can remove it by clicking "remove" in the top-right corner of the post).

I would rather suggest that there is a direct link between the Trump Presidency and Immigration law. This report is nearing a year old but it shows many elements of the Trump Presidency and revisions to the US Immigration Policies. I find the outlined facts to be helpful to Speculate the Future of a Full Trump Presidency.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/us-immigration-policy-trump-deep-changes-impacts

U.S. Immigration Policy under Trump: Deep Changes and Lasting Impacts
By Sarah Pierce, Jessica Bolter, and Andrew Selee Jul, 2018

U.S. immigration policy has undergone a sea change since the inauguration of Donald Trump in January 2017. Although his public statements have largely focused on a few major objectives toward which he has made only limited headway—such as building a wall along the entirety of the U.S.-Mexico border—the administration has taken other steps to redefine U.S. immigration policies that are less visible but no less important.

This report examines the wide range of changes the Trump administration has set in motion, from enhanced enforcement measures and new application vetting requirements, to cuts in refugee admissions and the scaling back of temporary protections for some noncitizens.

Despite the attention Trump has dedicated to immigration matters, this analysis finds that the fragmented nature of the U.S. political system has made it difficult for his administration to pursue some of its most ambitious aims. Congress has thus far shown little inclination to pass major immigration legislation, and the courts have halted or slowed key initiatives, including early iterations of the travel ban and the separation of families as part of a “zero-tolerance” border policy. States and localities have also taken divergent approaches to local law enforcement cooperation with federal immigration authorities, with some passing laws to curtail coordination and others to facilitate it. Still, through incremental changes and presidential discretion, the administration may in the long term be able to significantly redefine who comes to the country and who is removed from it.


Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7020 on: May 02, 2019, 07:04:38 AM »
I like this article.

I suggest moving that into a more relevant thread, or starting a new thread of your own if you wish to discuss.  As is, it's too tangential to the subject of this thread.

I thought it seemed relevant to the Constitutional Rights of immigrants, as it was being discussed, but if a mod thinks it is inappropriate, I happily yield....

The Constitutional rights of immigrants were not being discussed. You were the only person to bring that issue up, erroneously by the way, as nereo has already pointed out "The constitution does not address asylum seeking at all".

When you claimed "Yes, the Constitution does say that we let people in to declare asylum. Again, Fact not fallacy" you were mistaken. The premise that your argument was not a strawman based on this "fact" was nonsense but in addition to that, it's not a fact.

My understanding is that it is international law (Geneva Refugee Convention) and the Refugee Act of 1980 which requires the US to accept asylum seekers. There may be other related laws, but nothing in the Constitution.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7021 on: May 02, 2019, 07:37:43 AM »
This is a person who said that "aborted babies" was the saddest case of not being able to retire, not really sure why you guys think they're going to honestly debate this or any other topic.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7022 on: May 02, 2019, 07:46:50 AM »
This is a person who said that "aborted babies" was the saddest case of not being able to retire, not really sure why you guys think they're going to honestly debate this or any other topic.

The majority of people against abortion appear to do so due to religious arguments.  But typically, these same religions also preach that innocents who are killed are given eternal peace / happiness and helped by God.  I've always found it weird that so many folks who believe aborted babies are going to eternal peace and happiness are so upset about it.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7023 on: May 02, 2019, 07:56:01 AM »
Speculation...  A full Trump Presidency has the ability to reshape the European socialist countries into becoming more capitalist.  I would expect to see a major change with EU member states and EEA/EU candidate states.

Brexit, EURO currency, PIIGS (struggling European countries), Spain (Barcelona trying to break away), and mass muslim migrations.  4 more years of a Trump presidency and a prospering US economy could be seen as the grass being greener on the other side.  More overseas unrest...

I am assuming you have not spent any time in Europe recently.

Trump is vastly, deafeningly, era-definingly unpopular across most of Europe. Brexit, led by the same unpleasant animus as the Trump campaign, has been an unmitigated, catastrophic shitshow of such gargantuan proportions that it's honestly difficult to describe. The PIIGS economies? Portugal has reduced its budget deficit from 11.2% of GDP to 4.8% since 2015; Ireland's biggest problem right now is that Dublin is rapidly turning into a miniaturised San Francisco; Italy and Greece are edging back into economic growth; and Spain's GDP growth has been strongly positive for the last several years.

I've seen these "mass Muslim migrations". My best friend lived in Bradford for years. They are really not scary.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7024 on: May 02, 2019, 08:01:28 AM »
This is a person who said that "aborted babies" was the saddest case of not being able to retire, not really sure why you guys think they're going to honestly debate this or any other topic.

I acknowledged that too and yet I keep replying. I don't know, intellectual masochism :)

Seriously though I think there's value in trying to understand where people are coming from regardless of how disingenuous they might be. Also I tend to learn the most when several other posters come in to correct those who are way of base with their claims.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7025 on: May 02, 2019, 08:08:33 AM »
Kill as many babies as you want.

There are zero people in this thread who are in favor of killing babies.  I encourage you to read back and check.


The immigration articles I posted were relevant to the future of a Trump Presidency. My comment of the illegals rights "in the Constitution" was very wrong, but they do have debatable Constitutional rights. The exploitation of those rights is a problem that can be fixed with immigration law reform.

In what way do you believe that rights granted in the constitution are 'debatable'?

Cool Friend

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7026 on: May 02, 2019, 08:11:20 AM »
Kill as many babies as you want.

There are zero people in this thread who are in favor of killing babies.  I encourage you to read back and check.



Except me.  I love to kill babies, specifically so that they won't experience they joy of not having to labor anymore.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7027 on: May 02, 2019, 08:18:47 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7028 on: May 02, 2019, 08:20:51 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

What personal attacks in this thread are you referring to?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7029 on: May 02, 2019, 08:21:22 AM »
The immigration articles I posted were relevant to the future of a Trump Presidency.

They are not directly related to the DJT presidency, as stated earlier.  The issue you referenced does not reflect any change in policy or suggested policy put forth by this administration, but is a CONSTITUTIONAL question of what rights non-citizens have while in the custody of the US Government. Similar questions have been raised under past Presidents, and it is almost certain such a case would have wound up in the courts eventually regardless of who was president or what immigration policies that administration put forth.
 
If you wish to discuss constitutional law, please start your own thread and divert those discussions there. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 08:23:09 AM by nereo »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7030 on: May 02, 2019, 08:55:41 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

What personal attacks in this thread are you referring to?

Some people feel they are being attacked when someone points out the errors in their thinking or arguing.

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7031 on: May 02, 2019, 09:01:25 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

What personal attacks in this thread are you referring to?

Some people feel they are being attacked when someone points out the errors in their thinking or arguing.

I don't know, Cool Friend said that they were not going to "honestly debate" and Dabnasty implied that they might be "disingenuous". Those might be considered personal attacks I guess?

I think they're both very obviously warranted in this case though.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7032 on: May 02, 2019, 09:05:45 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

What personal attacks in this thread are you referring to?

Some people feel they are being attacked when someone points out the errors in their thinking or arguing.

I don't know, Cool Friend said that they were not going to "honestly debate" and Dabnasty implied that they might be "disingenuous". Those might be considered personal attacks I guess?

I think they're both very obviously warranted in this case though.

Both of those statements seem pretty rooted in attacking the argument/actions of the poster. If you say things that are dishonest and disingenuous, it's warranted to have that called out. As you say.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7033 on: May 02, 2019, 09:12:16 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

What personal attacks in this thread are you referring to?

Some people feel they are being attacked when someone points out the errors in their thinking or arguing.

I don't know, Cool Friend said that they were not going to "honestly debate" and Dabnasty implied that they might be "disingenuous". Those might be considered personal attacks I guess?

I think they're both very obviously warranted in this case though.

Both of those statements seem pretty rooted in attacking the argument/actions of the poster. If you say things that are dishonest and disingenuous, it's warranted to have that called out. As you say.

A good tip I learned in 6th grade writing class:

I you feel someone is being dishonest, try writing something like, "I feel you are being dishonest by saying XXX". "XXX" being the item of topic of the suspected dishonesty. This is considered constructive writing. Of course I learned more advanced writing in follow on education, but I thought I would share something that I found helpful.

This from someone who just a few posts ago accused someone of wanting to kill babies.

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7034 on: May 02, 2019, 09:15:47 AM »
This from someone who just a few posts ago accused someone of wanting to kill babies.

Can we just start ignoring the obvious troll?

Ematicic, feel free to contribute something logical, non-strawmany, and on-topic, if you have anything. We get it, you like Trump because of abortion and illegal immigrants. Anything else?

FrugalToque

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7035 on: May 02, 2019, 09:20:00 AM »

First of all, Rule #2: Attack an argument, not a person.


Unless that person has a different point of view... LMAO

[MOD NOTE: This Troll has been banned.  A number of their posts have also been removed.]

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7036 on: May 02, 2019, 09:23:41 AM »
A newly joining troll will appear in the next few days, just above the 100 count.

Watch it happen. (I`ve counted it happening 3 times so far in the last months!)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7037 on: May 02, 2019, 09:29:59 AM »
A newly joining troll will appear in the next few days, just above the 100 count.

Watch it happen. (I`ve counted it happening 3 times so far in the last months!)
The most recently banned poster had been a forum member for over a year, with some contributing posts in the main forums under that time.  It's a shame Eric could not stick to the forum rules and decorum, and resorted to trolling.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7038 on: May 02, 2019, 09:32:58 AM »
But look at what he started responding to,

If you go through his post lists, it was mostly this thread (very beginning he contributed to other threads, but it went and remained off-topic since)


Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 09:35:27 AM by Lews Therin »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7039 on: May 02, 2019, 09:34:25 AM »
This from someone who just a few posts ago accused someone of wanting to kill babies.

Can we just start ignoring the obvious troll?


Yeah, sorry. I've almost completely stopped contributing to threads like this, precisely because of what troll magnets they become and how freaking idiotic debate turns as a result. I slipped up.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7040 on: May 02, 2019, 09:41:17 AM »
Back on topic:
The Trump Administration pushed to strip language on climate change from the Arctic Policy statement to be given next week by Pompeo, putting the US at odds with the other 7 arctic nations.

It will be curious to see if there is any acknowledgment of climate change next week, as it's certain he will be directly asked.

Our own federal science agencies, the US military and the US Corp of Engineers all view climate change as ongoing and a threat to our country. 
article

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7041 on: May 02, 2019, 10:00:50 AM »
Back on topic:
The Trump Administration pushed to strip language on climate change from the Arctic Policy statement to be given next week by Pompeo, putting the US at odds with the other 7 arctic nations.

It will be curious to see if there is any acknowledgment of climate change next week, as it's certain he will be directly asked.

Our own federal science agencies, the US military and the US Corp of Engineers all view climate change as ongoing and a threat to our country. 
article

It's crazy, isn't it? The Trump administration and the GOP in general don't care at all about climate change, and the intense threat it poses to our country, including from a security standpoint, even though the military and the COE see it as important.

Because all Trump and his cronies care about at this point is keeping their ignorant base inflamed. And denying climate change is a winner to "own the libs." They'll keep voting Republican as long as Trump et al. keep feeding them these "wins" on a periodic basis so they can shout "in your face!" to people who actually have a foot or two in reality.

And, of course, because they make money hand over fist from the fossil fuel industry.

Sigh.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7042 on: May 02, 2019, 10:20:03 AM »
No US President has ever allowed that and I find it ridiculous that President Trump should be expected to...

Execpt basically everyone until the second World War or so. 
What was that poem? Ah, there:

 "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

You have 3 attempts to guess who that lamp-girl is.

Quote
Reminder: seeking asylum is legal. You may not like that it's legal. It would require Congress to make it illegal.
Which would be illegal by international law. Several, not least human rights declaration.

Quote
Those not entering at legally established points of entry, are entering illegally. FACT, not fallacy.
Maybe that is connected to teh fact that they are prevented to enter at established points of entry?
Anyway, see above. Rights are not entry-point dependend.

Quote
Trump is vastly, deafeningly, era-definingly unpopular across most of Europe.
The only ones who like him are the ultra-nationalists. Like here in German the Neo-Nazis and connected folks.
Everyone else can still not believe it and may be never able to. The view of the USA is on all-time low. I think the US now ranks under Russia. Trump halved the "think good of" in less than a year.

Which, at topic, does not sound good for a future Trump presidency ;)

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7043 on: May 02, 2019, 10:56:07 AM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7044 on: May 02, 2019, 11:38:59 AM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.

That's really bizarre to me.  So, tomorrow Trump could walk up to Joe Biden, stab him in the neck with a pencil and then kick him to death on national TV . . . but would not be imprisoned for it until 2020 (or 2024) at the earliest?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7045 on: May 02, 2019, 11:46:30 AM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.
It's unsettled law. The DOJ policy and many legal scholars believe that a sitting president cannot be indicted because it would interfere with his or her duties as the President, and because the Constitution specifically outlines a method for addressing 'High Crimes and misdemeanors" (namely impeachment by congress and removal by the Senate).  However, this is not a universally held opinion, as Laurence Tribe articulates in an op-ed. Interestingly, President Grant was arrested while in office in 1872 for speeding in his horse drawn carriage (a misdemeanor charge brought by an officer of DC).  He paid a fine but did not show up for his court appearance, and no further action was taken.

Also worth noting that this question has been a sort of 'parlor discussion' among lawyers for decades, along with questions like "can a President pardon himself."  Any attempt would doubtless wind up before SCOTUS, and to date no such case has occurred. 

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7046 on: May 02, 2019, 11:58:57 AM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.

That's really bizarre to me.  So, tomorrow Trump could walk up to Joe Biden, stab him in the neck with a pencil and then kick him to death on national TV . . . but would not be imprisoned for it until 2020 (or 2024) at the earliest?
The fatal constitutional error is in having your Head of State and Head of Government the same person.  Much better to split the roles.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 02:09:42 PM by former player »

sherr

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7047 on: May 02, 2019, 12:17:01 PM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.

That's really bizarre to me.  So, tomorrow Trump could walk up to Joe Biden, stab him in the neck with a pencil and then kick him to death on national TV . . . but would not be imprisoned for it until 2020 (or 2024) at the earliest?

If that were to actually happen then he would immediately be impeached and removed from office, and then charged with murder the next day. I refuse the believe that the Republican party is that far gone.

Impeachment and removal from office are supposed to be how we deal with presidents doing illegal things. Otherwise you can guarantee that all the southern states would have found something to charge Obama with...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 12:19:30 PM by sherr »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7048 on: May 02, 2019, 12:20:30 PM »
Separate question: What happens if one of the multiple other investigations on the Trump business hi-jinks fines him guilty? Can a state jail a president?
-Morbid curiosity from a Canadian.

Not while he is president. Afterwards yes.

That's really bizarre to me.  So, tomorrow Trump could walk up to Joe Biden, stab him in the neck with a pencil and then kick him to death on national TV . . . but would not be imprisoned for it until 2020 (or 2024) at the earliest?

If that were to actually happen then he would immediately be impeached and removed from office, and then charged with murder the next day. I refuse the believe that the Republican party is that far gone.

I admire your optimism and faith in the good will of others.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7049 on: May 02, 2019, 12:32:46 PM »
2016 MAGA - Measles Aren't Going Away!

2020 - And now you don't have healthcare!  (pumps fist triumphantly, points to random cheering people in the crowd)