Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 52425 times)

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #700 on: November 09, 2017, 01:38:41 PM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

meghan88

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #701 on: November 09, 2017, 01:39:13 PM »
I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

Spending several hours a day staring at Fox News is not an education, but eventually you absorb enough propaganda that you "know for a fact" that your world sucks because..................welfare queen in Escalade.

I marvel at how some of us in this thread managed to somehow escape this kind of birthright, and learned critical thinking.  My father was a bigot and his world-view it contradicted what I was being taught in grade school - and observing the two points of view helped me to decide what kind of person I wanted to be.

Anyway I love this post by the Oatmeal:  http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe ... it is an oddly comforting, yet exasperating explanation about how our brains work when confronted with something that doesn't fit our way of thinking.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #702 on: November 09, 2017, 01:51:45 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/politics/keith-schiller-russian-offer-women-2013-moscow/index.html

Quote
President Donald Trump's long-time confidant Keith Schiller privately testified that he rejected a Russian offer to send five women to then private-citizen Trump's hotel room during their 2013 trip to Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant, according to multiple sources from both political parties with direct knowledge of the testimony.


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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #703 on: November 09, 2017, 02:12:39 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/politics/keith-schiller-russian-offer-women-2013-moscow/index.html

Quote
President Donald Trump's long-time confidant Keith Schiller privately testified that he rejected a Russian offer to send five women to then private-citizen Trump's hotel room during their 2013 trip to Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant, according to multiple sources from both political parties with direct knowledge of the testimony.



Maybe their bladders weren't full enough for Trump's tastes.

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #704 on: November 09, 2017, 02:16:27 PM »
I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

Spending several hours a day staring at Fox News is not an education, but eventually you absorb enough propaganda that you "know for a fact" that your world sucks because..................welfare queen in Escalade.

I marvel at how some of us in this thread managed to somehow escape this kind of birthright, and learned critical thinking.  My father was a bigot and his world-view it contradicted what I was being taught in grade school - and observing the two points of view helped me to decide what kind of person I wanted to be.

Anyway I love this post by the Oatmeal:  http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe ... it is an oddly comforting, yet exasperating explanation about how our brains work when confronted with something that doesn't fit our way of thinking.

When I said painful education - this is what I was alluding to. It will be the younger generations that create change in these communities and the elders will have to undergo the painful realization that their grandchildren do not share the same values and beliefs. In my small flyover town the races are mixing (having babies together, sometime the old whites raising these babies in dysfunctional families), there are LGBTQ folks in open circulation, and the young people have been rightfully pissed off at the Grand Cheeto in the WH. People are demonstrating for various liberal causes in our traditionally red state - except they drive to the nearest big city to voice their opinion to be part of the bigger crowd.

I think the rigid minded old folks are a lost cause. They'll go to their graves stuck in their flawed beliefs and say some ugly things along the trip - including ugly things to their own kin folk.

These are the old attitudes crumbling.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #705 on: November 09, 2017, 02:48:37 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/politics/keith-schiller-russian-offer-women-2013-moscow/index.html

Quote
President Donald Trump's long-time confidant Keith Schiller privately testified that he rejected a Russian offer to send five women to then private-citizen Trump's hotel room during their 2013 trip to Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant, according to multiple sources from both political parties with direct knowledge of the testimony.


Maybe their bladders weren't full enough for Trump's tastes.

Anyone wants to bet how many days until he tweets that is FAKE NEWS ?

It was 10 women, not 5!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 02:55:03 PM by sequoia »

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #706 on: November 09, 2017, 02:50:52 PM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

It's all part of the massive liberal conspiracy (Hillary!) to take Christmas away from God-fearing Americans.

He'll win unless the Repubs yank him from the ballot. They'll lose a Senate seat but, if they don't act, they risk losing educated, suburban, women voters in swing districts. The House is already at risk; an inaction may risk it even more.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #707 on: November 09, 2017, 03:12:53 PM »

I think the rigid minded old folks are a lost cause. They'll go to their graves stuck in their flawed beliefs and say some ugly things along the trip - including ugly things to their own kin folk.

These are the old attitudes crumbling.

Generally, I would say that you are correct. However, there are plenty of younger folks who managed to absorb and embrace a lot of the hatred and stupidity their parents believe, or in some cases reached their own "deplorable" beliefs, independent of how they were raised. There is definitely a young "Trump Bro." culture, and we got a front row seat to that whole mess, when the son of a good friend of ours, a guy in his late 20s, jumped into the whole Trump clown show. Eventually his facebook page was full of hate filled garbage, and supportive comments came from other bros. many of whom were his age, and obviously local young guys that he socializes with.  When it comes to the poor white and failed communities in this country, there is a whole generation that never got even close to the quality of life their parents and grandparents once had. Instead of a HS diploma, and earning a marketable skill or degree, and a one way ticket out of town, far too many just kick back and buy into the bullshit that there are outside forces that keep them trapped in the mess they were willing to settle for.  It's mind blowing to see how many legacy industries in this country are begging for things like CNC capable machinists, skilled welders, and other trained employees and how hard those jobs are to fill, even when training is available and often low cost. I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #708 on: November 09, 2017, 07:12:52 PM »
I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

Spending several hours a day staring at Fox News is not an education, but eventually you absorb enough propaganda that you "know for a fact" that your world sucks because..................welfare queen in Escalade.

I marvel at how some of us in this thread managed to somehow escape this kind of birthright, and learned critical thinking.  My father was a bigot and his world-view it contradicted what I was being taught in grade school - and observing the two points of view helped me to decide what kind of person I wanted to be.

Anyway I love this post by the Oatmeal:  http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe ... it is an oddly comforting, yet exasperating explanation about how our brains work when confronted with something that doesn't fit our way of thinking.
Once you realize political bias is a combination of environment and genetically inherited brain chemistry which you can overturn through greater detachment and rationality, the world becomes a much more amazing, open, beautiful place. I might sound like a jerk but when I read political debates on this site (which is far above average), most of the posts are not even wrong.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #709 on: November 10, 2017, 07:45:30 AM »
I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #710 on: November 10, 2017, 08:15:25 AM »
I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

Because employers are the only ones upholding our high moral standards in America. Without the diligent monitoring, we would devolve into a society of good-for-nothing IV drug users.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #711 on: November 10, 2017, 08:31:16 AM »
I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

Because employers are the only ones upholding our high moral standards in America. Without the diligent monitoring, we would devolve into a society of good-for-nothing IV drug users.


Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #712 on: November 10, 2017, 08:33:41 AM »
Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

I kinda-sorta get it for people operating potentially dangerous machinery, but yeah.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #713 on: November 10, 2017, 09:26:26 AM »
Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

I kinda-sorta get it for people operating potentially dangerous machinery, but yeah.

I wouldn't work in an industrial setting where they didn't drug test the employees.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #714 on: November 10, 2017, 09:40:32 AM »
Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

I kinda-sorta get it for people operating potentially dangerous machinery, but yeah.

I wouldn't work in an industrial setting where they didn't drug test the employees.
Is this because you believe that THC in one's bloodstream compromises their ability to perform or that if they use it on their own time they are more likely to use it on the job?

I specify weed because that is the primary drug found by drug tests. Others can be detected but don't stay in the blood nearly as long.

Personally I suspect the decision to drug test is based on statistics the same way someone pays more for auto insurance based on their demographic. They may be a great driver but insurance companies use the data they have. I'm sure there are also lots of incorrect assumptions about drugs coming from the people making the decision to test, but that's kind of a given considering the history of drugs and politics.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #715 on: November 10, 2017, 09:41:58 AM »

Once you realize political bias is a combination of environment and genetically inherited brain chemistry which you can overturn through greater detachment and rationality, the world becomes a much more amazing, open, beautiful place. I might sound like a jerk but when I read political debates on this site (which is far above average), most of the posts are not even wrong.
[/quote]

Eh-not a jerk. But waltzing into a political debate and telling the participants that, if only they'd be more rational (like, for example, you!), they'd have access to a more amazing world is more like a room-clearing fart. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #716 on: November 10, 2017, 09:45:59 AM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #717 on: November 10, 2017, 09:51:45 AM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

I think the Conservatives are going to wrap this turd up in a bow, minimize it, call the truth of it into question, and use it with their base as a display of how awful Democrats are for this witch hunt.

In fact, they are already doing it.

https://sojo.net/articles/conservatives-defend-roy-moore-invoking-joseph-mary-and-ten-commandments
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #718 on: November 10, 2017, 09:54:54 AM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

Depends if they think it's really immoral.

Quote
“Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” [Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler] told The Washington Examiner. “There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

Or if the seat is worth more than electing a convicted pedophile:

Quote
The chairman of the Bibb County Republican Party, Jerry Pow, said that he’d vote for Moore even if it was proved he committed a sex crime against an underage girl.

I'm not holding my breath on Alabama voters doing the right thing.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #719 on: November 10, 2017, 10:02:06 AM »
You know what they will say - "fake news".  He wins.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #720 on: November 10, 2017, 10:12:17 AM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

Depends if they think it's really immoral.

Quote
“Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” [Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler] told The Washington Examiner. “There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

Or if the seat is worth more than electing a convicted pedophile:

Quote
The chairman of the Bibb County Republican Party, Jerry Pow, said that he’d vote for Moore even if it was proved he committed a sex crime against an underage girl.

I'm not holding my breath on Alabama voters doing the right thing.

I like how the state auditor's defense is the story of a VIRGIN birth. I thought that was kind of the whole point.

But of course, the reality is he doesn't believe a word he himself is saying.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #721 on: November 10, 2017, 10:21:36 AM »
I like how the state auditor's defense is the story of a VIRGIN birth. I thought that was kind of the whole point.

But of course, the reality is he doesn't believe a word he himself is saying.

Clearly they did it after she was already pregnant. It's not like she could get double pregnant.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #722 on: November 10, 2017, 11:27:05 AM »
I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

Because employers are the only ones upholding our high moral standards in America. Without the diligent monitoring, we would devolve into a society of good-for-nothing IV drug users.


Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

Actually, quite the opposite. My son is a safety director involved in the fracking industry. There are times when he will lose over 50% of job applicants due to failed pissed tests.  Now this is in areas like WV, and other Appalachian regions where Opioid, and Heroin addiction are an epidemic.  So, a couple of points to ponder. First, if you are looking to hire a group of truck drivers and 60% of  applicants fail a initial drug screen, it's telling for a few reasons. How many potential applicants didn't even bother to show up for the initial interview, since they knew they couldn't  pass a drug test? Why are their guys with CDLs showing up, since a failed test can result in losing your license?  Why would you think it a good idea to have anybody in the workplace that's a meth, opioid, or heroin addict? Want to guess how many accidents in high risk occupations like drilling resulting in fatalities, severe career ending injuries, and/or severe environmental damage are the result of employees that fail the mandatory and immediate drug screening following the incident?

Doesn't matter if you are managing a manufacturing plant or a construction site, your first order of business after an event is to drug test the employees involved. At that point, some pretty crazy shit can happen, from workers who will sign resignation letters, and lose everything instead of getting drug tested,  drivers who throw away a CDL career since their license got pulled for refusing a post accident test, an employee that swallowed a bottle of Niacin to contaminate the results, and employee that faked an injury on the ride to the testing facility, ended up in the ER, and slipped out a back door to avoid a test, and a hundred other games. The states have a massive drug problem, and claiming that it's irrational and unfair to test, and refuse to employ drug users is a bit weird.
If you are going to be a stoner, or addict, it's your call. If you think that 99% of  corporate America is going to tolerate you being compromised while on the job, in any environment where you could cause harm to yourself or others, sorry but it doesn't work that way. Not to mention the obvious, which would be that stoners and junkies are not exactly employee of the month material, in most cases.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #723 on: November 10, 2017, 11:44:58 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/17/fox-news-poll-alabama-senate-race-all-tied-up.html

Fox News had the race tied just a month ago.

42% of Moore supporters in the survey said they had reservations about supporting him.

Even if Moore wins next month, it's likely to be the closest contested Senate race since Sessions won his seat in 1996 - he did so by 7 percent.  The closest Senate election since then was in 2002 when Sessions won by 19 percent.

I'm guessing there will be SOME Alabamians who don't like the Moore news coming out - even if they simply abstain from voting that's a half win for Doug Jones.  Still a month to go, but I think this will be very close on Election Day.
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #724 on: November 10, 2017, 12:06:51 PM »
I recently read a comment from a regional business development person, who stated that in industrialized northern Ohio, there are currently six thousand highly paid positions unfilled in the areas I just mentioned, due to a lack of applicants who took the initiative to get the training, and can pass a drug test.

Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

Because employers are the only ones upholding our high moral standards in America. Without the diligent monitoring, we would devolve into a society of good-for-nothing IV drug users.


Like, I could see drug testing for a job where drug usage is a public risk (maybe a bus driver or something) . . . but for office workers, or CNC operators?  WTF?  America is a weird place.

Actually, quite the opposite. My son is a safety director involved in the fracking industry. There are times when he will lose over 50% of job applicants due to failed pissed tests.  Now this is in areas like WV, and other Appalachian regions where Opioid, and Heroin addiction are an epidemic.  So, a couple of points to ponder. First, if you are looking to hire a group of truck drivers and 60% of  applicants fail a initial drug screen, it's telling for a few reasons. How many potential applicants didn't even bother to show up for the initial interview, since they knew they couldn't  pass a drug test? Why are their guys with CDLs showing up, since a failed test can result in losing your license?  Why would you think it a good idea to have anybody in the workplace that's a meth, opioid, or heroin addict? Want to guess how many accidents in high risk occupations like drilling resulting in fatalities, severe career ending injuries, and/or severe environmental damage are the result of employees that fail the mandatory and immediate drug screening following the incident?

Doesn't matter if you are managing a manufacturing plant or a construction site, your first order of business after an event is to drug test the employees involved. At that point, some pretty crazy shit can happen, from workers who will sign resignation letters, and lose everything instead of getting drug tested,  drivers who throw away a CDL career since their license got pulled for refusing a post accident test, an employee that swallowed a bottle of Niacin to contaminate the results, and employee that faked an injury on the ride to the testing facility, ended up in the ER, and slipped out a back door to avoid a test, and a hundred other games. The states have a massive drug problem, and claiming that it's irrational and unfair to test, and refuse to employ drug users is a bit weird.
If you are going to be a stoner, or addict, it's your call. If you think that 99% of  corporate America is going to tolerate you being compromised while on the job, in any environment where you could cause harm to yourself or others, sorry but it doesn't work that way. Not to mention the obvious, which would be that stoners and junkies are not exactly employee of the month material, in most cases.

So, a couple points to ponder from your own response.

1.  By far the most common drug test used in the workplace is urinalysis.  This test reports usage of marijuana for three weeks after consumption, and cocaine usage multiple days after use.  There's little to do with "you being compromised while on the job, in any environment where you could cause harm to yourself or others" when you're being fired for smoking a joint half a month ago on the weekend.

2.  I can see the argument that "stoners and junkies are not exactly employee of the month material", but think that there's a pretty huge middle ground between teetotaler and stoner/junkie that you're forgetting.  I'm an engineer.  Most of my friends are engineers.  I know an awful lot of them who used to get high on the weekend and were great employees during the week.  One of them literally won an 'Employee of the Month' accolade while regularly getting high on the weekend.

3.  On the job drug testing is not commonly used in Canada, and to the best of my knowledge there aren't radically different safety rates between our two countries.



I get that there exists an argument for some need for drug testing - and specifically mentioned jobs where someone might be a danger to others.  If someone's high on the job, that's obviously behaviour that can't be tolerated.  The testing just seems a bit overdone in the US.  Maybe my impression is wrong.  I've never used weed, rarely drink, and haven't done any illicit substance in my life . . . so it's no great concern of mine either way, just something that seems very odd.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #725 on: November 10, 2017, 12:40:56 PM »
Another method to get the cream of the crop at interviews? Helps prevent having employees who might be motivated to get high during their lunch break aka Chrysler line workers?

I've worked with drunk people and very, very tired people in industrial environments. No thanks.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #726 on: November 10, 2017, 12:44:11 PM »
Slightly off topic question . . . why is passing a drug test even a thing related to working?

If someone is intoxicated at work, fire 'em.  Sure, no problems with that.  If they want to use drugs on the weekend, why is that any of the employers business?

It's not. And it's actively harmful to finding good candidates in some fields.

The government has a lot of trouble hiring good information security folks, for example, with their combination of shit pay and puritanical drug policies.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #727 on: November 10, 2017, 12:44:14 PM »
Does anyone have concerns about these allegations women are making concerning sexual harassment?

How can the courts prove anything? Are allegations x5 or x6 all society needs to send someone home and wreck their career?

Not trying to throw these women under the bus... Not blaming the victim.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #728 on: November 10, 2017, 12:51:09 PM »


So, a couple points to ponder from your own response.

1.  By far the most common drug test used in the workplace is urinalysis.  This test reports usage of marijuana for three weeks after consumption, and cocaine usage multiple days after use.  There's little to do with "you being compromised while on the job, in any environment where you could cause harm to yourself or others" when you're being fired for smoking a joint half a month ago on the weekend.

2.  I can see the argument that "stoners and junkies are not exactly employee of the month material", but think that there's a pretty huge middle ground between teetotaler and stoner/junkie that you're forgetting.  I'm an engineer.  Most of my friends are engineers.  I know an awful lot of them who used to get high on the weekend and were great employees during the week.  One of them literally won an 'Employee of the Month' accolade while regularly getting high on the weekend.

3.  On the job drug testing is not commonly used in Canada, and to the best of my knowledge there aren't radically different safety rates between our two countries.



I get that there exists an argument for some need for drug testing - and specifically mentioned jobs where someone might be a danger to others.  If someone's high on the job, that's obviously behaviour that can't be tolerated.  The testing just seems a bit overdone in the US.  Maybe my impression is wrong.  I've never used weed, rarely drink, and haven't done any illicit substance in my life . . . so it's no great concern of mine either way, just something that seems very odd.

Well, when you are dealing with a population that has a serious issue with opioid, and Heroin addiction, like is currently ravaging the working class in the states, your anecdotes about engineers who enjoy a bit of weed in another country isn't all that relevant. Even with zero tolerance and pre-employment testing, there are still significant issues with serious drug abuse in a lot of industries in the states. Seems to me that if part of having a well paid career is staying away from smoking weed in the off hours, it's a small price to pay. Toward the end of my construction career in the unionized trades, drug testing became common. Oddly enough, in my local, about 5% of the workforce seemed to have a big problem with it, things like failing pre-employment screening, ranting about their imaginary "right" to use illegal substances on off hours, etc.... the interesting part of that was how often, while managing groups of tradesmen, you would find yourself marveling how this was a process of self-selection. They guys that got tripped up by the clamp down on drug testing were the ones that really were pretty worthless on the job. Not to say that I and others hadn't dabbled in the past, or that some quality talent didn't end up giving up an enjoyable off hours joint, now and then, but when your making some of the highest wages in the industry, you find the will to grow up. Seems like you can avoid this problem, so why is it necessary to rationalize your co-workers behavior?










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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #729 on: November 10, 2017, 12:52:29 PM »
Does anyone have concerns about these allegations women are making concerning sexual harassment?

How can the courts prove anything? Are allegations x5 or x6 all society needs to send someone home and wreck their career?

Not trying to throw these women under the bus... Not blaming the victim.

Unfortunately, women know that even if a case goes to court, the court will not necessarily protect them or give them justice. Witness Anita Hill.

And in many cases, these actions severely affect them, and ruin their lives, or large swaths of it.

And, Louis CK, for one, has just admitted that the allegations against him are true.

https://boingboing.net/2017/11/10/louis-c-k-says-these-storie.html

« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 12:54:47 PM by Kris »
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #730 on: November 10, 2017, 01:04:52 PM »


So, a couple points to ponder from your own response.

1.  By far the most common drug test used in the workplace is urinalysis.  This test reports usage of marijuana for three weeks after consumption, and cocaine usage multiple days after use.  There's little to do with "you being compromised while on the job, in any environment where you could cause harm to yourself or others" when you're being fired for smoking a joint half a month ago on the weekend.

2.  I can see the argument that "stoners and junkies are not exactly employee of the month material", but think that there's a pretty huge middle ground between teetotaler and stoner/junkie that you're forgetting.  I'm an engineer.  Most of my friends are engineers.  I know an awful lot of them who used to get high on the weekend and were great employees during the week.  One of them literally won an 'Employee of the Month' accolade while regularly getting high on the weekend.

3.  On the job drug testing is not commonly used in Canada, and to the best of my knowledge there aren't radically different safety rates between our two countries.



I get that there exists an argument for some need for drug testing - and specifically mentioned jobs where someone might be a danger to others.  If someone's high on the job, that's obviously behaviour that can't be tolerated.  The testing just seems a bit overdone in the US.  Maybe my impression is wrong.  I've never used weed, rarely drink, and haven't done any illicit substance in my life . . . so it's no great concern of mine either way, just something that seems very odd.

Well, when you are dealing with a population that has a serious issue with opioid, and Heroin addiction, like is currently ravaging the working class in the states, your anecdotes about engineers who enjoy a bit of weed in another country isn't all that relevant. Even with zero tolerance and pre-employment testing, there are still significant issues with serious drug abuse in a lot of industries in the states. Seems to me that if part of having a well paid career is staying away from smoking weed in the off hours, it's a small price to pay. Toward the end of my construction career in the unionized trades, drug testing became common. Oddly enough, in my local, about 5% of the workforce seemed to have a big problem with it, things like failing pre-employment screening, ranting about their imaginary "right" to use illegal substances on off hours, etc.... the interesting part of that was how often, while managing groups of tradesmen, you would find yourself marveling how this was a process of self-selection. They guys that got tripped up by the clamp down on drug testing were the ones that really were pretty worthless on the job. Not to say that I and others hadn't dabbled in the past, or that some quality talent didn't end up giving up an enjoyable off hours joint, now and then, but when your making some of the highest wages in the industry, you find the will to grow up. Seems like you can avoid this problem, so why is it necessary to rationalize your co-workers behavior?

Obviously from your reasoning you believe that it's not possible to use any recreational substance in off hours without being a poor employee.  If there was a test that checked for alcohol use within the past three weeks, you would be OK with losing your job for ever failing it?  I mean, you always have the option to grow up and stop drinking alcohol, so it would be very easy for you to avoid this problem.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #731 on: November 10, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »
Does anyone have concerns about these allegations women are making concerning sexual harassment?

How can the courts prove anything? Are allegations x5 or x6 all society needs to send someone home and wreck their career?

Not trying to throw these women under the bus... Not blaming the victim.

Unfortunately, women know that even if a case goes to court, the court will not necessarily protect them or give them justice. Witness Anita Hill.

And in many cases, these actions severely affect them, and ruin their lives, or large swaths of it.

And, Louis CK, for one, has just admitted that the allegations against him are true.

https://boingboing.net/2017/11/10/louis-c-k-says-these-storie.html

Courts do convict people of sex crimes before, so it does happen. That's not to say our judicial system is spectacular (particularly when it comes to sex crimes), but the idea that nothing can be proven is absurd.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #732 on: November 10, 2017, 01:15:25 PM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

In this era of Trumpism and fake news, I'd be surprised if he didn't get a bump up in the polls. The guy is rallying his base to fend off the attackers (lapdog media, libruhls, etc.) from unjustly taking the seat. Insanity. Bizarro world. America.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #733 on: November 10, 2017, 01:36:22 PM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

In this era of Trumpism and fake news, I'd be surprised if he didn't get a bump up in the polls. The guy is rallying his base to fend off the attackers (lapdog media, libruhls, etc.) from unjustly taking the seat. Insanity. Bizarro world. America.
Roy Moore is a terrible person to have in the Senate. I just donated to the Doug Jones campaign to help prevent him from getting into office. At least I'll feel like I did at least something.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #734 on: November 10, 2017, 01:48:25 PM »
Roy Moore is a terrible person to have in the Senate.

This is the understatement of the day.  Roy Moore was literally removed from the bench TWICE for his blatant disregard for the US Constitution.  He's quite possibly the least qualified person to be a US politician that I have ever seen, and that's before we found out he's also a pedophile.

What happens when takes his oath of office?  Does he just skip that part about upholding the Constitution, since he's been convicted of failing to do that twice already?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #735 on: November 10, 2017, 01:57:44 PM »
So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

https://morningconsult.com/2016/09/20/alabama-governor-robert-bentley-sees-approval-drop-following-scandal/

Just last year, the approval rating for Alabama's Republican governor plummeted after his extra-marital affair/scandal was made public.  Yes, evangelical whites break more for Republicans/Trump, but they also care about moral issues.

In a race where Moore is only up ~48-42 over Doug Jones, it really just comes down to if the voters believe the allegations or not.  A 4-5 point swing wouldn't be a surprise at all especially given these allegations involved underage girls whereas with Governor Bentley it was "only" an extramarital affair and it cost him nearly 20 points in his approval rating.

In this era of Trumpism and fake news, I'd be surprised if he didn't get a bump up in the polls. The guy is rallying his base to fend off the attackers (lapdog media, libruhls, etc.) from unjustly taking the seat. Insanity. Bizarro world. America.
Roy Moore is a terrible person to have in the Senate. I just donated to the Doug Jones campaign to help prevent him from getting into office. At least I'll feel like I did at least something.

I'm hoping the DNC will start to support him there.  So confusing why they're sitting on their hands.
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #736 on: November 10, 2017, 02:10:11 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-judge-20171110-story.html

Jesus Christ.

The Senate Judiciary Committee just voted along party lines to approve a LIFETIME appointment to the federal bench for a 36 year old blogger who's never tried a case in his life.

Brett Talley has practiced law for three years and will now be a federal judge for the rest of his life.
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #737 on: November 10, 2017, 02:53:55 PM »
Does anyone have concerns about these allegations women are making concerning sexual harassment?

How can the courts prove anything? Are allegations x5 or x6 all society needs to send someone home and wreck their career?

Not trying to throw these women under the bus... Not blaming the victim.
Which allegations are you talking about? 

Which courts are involved?

Who is being sent home and whose career is being wrecked (hint: if its Judge Moore he's 70 years old and not in need of a "career").

I liked Romney's response  "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections".

There are 30 women named in the Washington Post as providing direct or indirect evidence that Moore is a paedophile.  Moore has put up a one line denial.  I know who I believe.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #738 on: November 10, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 03:09:51 PM by A Definite Beta Guy »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #739 on: November 10, 2017, 03:19:11 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-judge-20171110-story.html

Jesus Christ.

The Senate Judiciary Committee just voted along party lines to approve a LIFETIME appointment to the federal bench for a 36 year old blogger who's never tried a case in his life.

Brett Talley has practiced law for three years and will now be a federal judge for the rest of his life.

Nice to see a millennial (depending whose definition you use) finally break the "need a job to get experience; need experience to get a job" cycle. /s

So they blocked judicial appointments for years for this?
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #740 on: November 10, 2017, 03:28:16 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
For fuck's sake.

Dictionary definition of paedophilia is "a sexual attraction to children" and 14 is legally a child, not an adult, then and now in Alabama.

In USA culture, 14 years old is a first year high school child.

Fuck it, that's wrong.  For a 32 year old lawyer who made his living from prosecuting crimes there is no fucking excuse.
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #741 on: November 10, 2017, 03:43:32 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
For fuck's sake.

Dictionary definition of paedophilia is "a sexual attraction to children" and 14 is legally a child, not an adult, then and now in Alabama.

In USA culture, 14 years old is a first year high school child.

Fuck it, that's wrong.  For a 32 year old lawyer who made his living from prosecuting crimes there is no fucking excuse.
I agree it's wrong, but I cannot legitimately claim that my opinion on something being wrong makes it objectively wrong. If Italy says it isn't wrong, what makes me right and Italy wrong?

That's much different from saying "murder is wrong." This is pretty much universal throughout human history.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #742 on: November 10, 2017, 03:54:58 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
For fuck's sake.

Dictionary definition of paedophilia is "a sexual attraction to children" and 14 is legally a child, not an adult, then and now in Alabama.

In USA culture, 14 years old is a first year high school child.

Fuck it, that's wrong.  For a 32 year old lawyer who made his living from prosecuting crimes there is no fucking excuse.
I agree it's wrong, but I cannot legitimately claim that my opinion on something being wrong makes it objectively wrong. If Italy says it isn't wrong, what makes me right and Italy wrong?

That's much different from saying "murder is wrong." This is pretty much universal throughout human history.

Murder is wrong is like saying rape is wrong.

At question here is the definition of rape and murder.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #743 on: November 10, 2017, 04:15:37 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
For fuck's sake.

Dictionary definition of paedophilia is "a sexual attraction to children" and 14 is legally a child, not an adult, then and now in Alabama.

In USA culture, 14 years old is a first year high school child.

Fuck it, that's wrong.  For a 32 year old lawyer who made his living from prosecuting crimes there is no fucking excuse.
I agree it's wrong, but I cannot legitimately claim that my opinion on something being wrong makes it objectively wrong. If Italy says it isn't wrong, what makes me right and Italy wrong?

That's much different from saying "murder is wrong." This is pretty much universal throughout human history.

Murder is wrong is like saying rape is wrong.

At question here is the definition of rape and murder.
Not at question here is that Roy Moore did something objectively illegal.
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bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #744 on: November 10, 2017, 04:53:41 PM »
My asshole contrarian side requires me to point out that ephebophilia is distinct from pedophilia, and is not malum in se. Age of consent varies widely throughout history and throughout cultures. It was 14 until recently in both Hawaii and Canada, I believe, and still IS 14 in Italy according to Wiki (without restriction, IE, Heffner can pick up 14 year olds if he so desires if he can get out of the grave).

It's a crime in Alabama but if we are going to look at things with a certain degree of cultural humility, Moore isn't a pedophile and trying to bang a 14 year old is not objectively wrong. It's not "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Hopefully he loses, if only for his repeated violations of the law he was sworn to uphold. He clearly doesn't give a shit about our legal institutions, so why the hell should he be a Senator?
For fuck's sake.

Dictionary definition of paedophilia is "a sexual attraction to children" and 14 is legally a child, not an adult, then and now in Alabama.

In USA culture, 14 years old is a first year high school child.

Fuck it, that's wrong.  For a 32 year old lawyer who made his living from prosecuting crimes there is no fucking excuse.
I agree it's wrong, but I cannot legitimately claim that my opinion on something being wrong makes it objectively wrong. If Italy says it isn't wrong, what makes me right and Italy wrong?

That's much different from saying "murder is wrong." This is pretty much universal throughout human history.

You're ignoring that the 14 year was an unwilling participant.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #745 on: November 10, 2017, 05:35:18 PM »
Roy Moore is a terrible person to have in the Senate.

This is the understatement of the day.  Roy Moore was literally removed from the bench TWICE for his blatant disregard for the US Constitution.  He's quite possibly the least qualified person to be a US politician that I have ever seen, and that's before we found out he's also a pedophile.

What happens when takes his oath of office?  Does he just skip that part about upholding the Constitution, since he's been convicted of failing to do that twice already?

It just gets worse, too. One of the Alabama representatives has now said that legal charges should be brought against the women who have accused him because they were silent for so long. Holy fuck is that twisted logic.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/359792-alabama-state-rep-roy-moores-accusers-should-be-prosecuted

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #746 on: November 10, 2017, 06:05:37 PM »

Obviously from your reasoning you believe that it's not possible to use any recreational substance in off hours without being a poor employee.  If there was a test that checked for alcohol use within the past three weeks, you would be OK with losing your job for ever failing it?  I mean, you always have the option to grow up and stop drinking alcohol, so it would be very easy for you to avoid this problem.

Nothing is obvious, particularly since I never said, or believe any such thing. It's a pretty clear choice. You want a relatively high paying career working for any serious industrial, construction, government or big corporate concern with a drug policy, you follow their rules. If you value getting high more than a steady gig, that's your choice. If the same company decides that they have zero tolerance for alcohol, and you want your job, you play be their rules. For many of these gigs, if you're not a total dumbass, getting high on your own time should be a non-issue. You stay clean through the initial hiring process, and you don't engage in any behavior that would cause an incident that would result in ending up needing to be tested. If you are not subject to random testing, there is no problem. I would guess that this is protocol followed by millions of working folks in NA. I've probably been both the coworker, direct supervisor, and employer of a hell of a lot more of the "unwashed masses" than most folks here have ever been. That said, when you end up with employees that are tweekers, junkies, and serious alcoholics, you not only have huge concerns as to how much of a danger they are to themselves and others, but you get tired of the unending drama and bullshit. Working for an outfit that screens that crap out ahead of time is win all the way around. If all you can see from that reality is that you buddies can't burn one on a Saturday night, well, you miss the big picture.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #747 on: November 10, 2017, 06:12:08 PM »
It just gets worse, too. One of the Alabama representatives has now said that legal charges should be brought against the women who have accused him because they were silent for so long. Holy fuck is that twisted logic.

It's not really twisted, it's called victim blaming and it's standard practice in the evangelical community when one of their own gets caught red handed.

I find it slightly ironic that their multiple lines of defense for Roy Moore have been 1)he didn't do it, it's all lies, and 2)he totally did it but it's the victims' fault for not coming forward sooner.  And sometimes 2b) he totally did it but it's normal for 32 year old DAs to put a 14 year old's hands on his erect penis, so what's the problem?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:47:01 PM by sol »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #748 on: November 10, 2017, 06:35:25 PM »

Once you realize political bias is a combination of environment and genetically inherited brain chemistry which you can overturn through greater detachment and rationality, the world becomes a much more amazing, open, beautiful place. I might sound like a jerk but when I read political debates on this site (which is far above average), most of the posts are not even wrong.

Eh-not a jerk. But waltzing into a political debate and telling the participants that, if only they'd be more rational (like, for example, you!), they'd have access to a more amazing world is more like a room-clearing fart.
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Well maybe this is a room that deserves to be cleared (it already stank before I arrived anyway). I doubt there is any concise way to demonstrate how liberating oneself from ideological prison is wonderful so I'm probably wasting my time preaching detachment. But so is everyone else when they argue back and forth without ever changing their minds about anything, which seems to be the outcome of such discussions for 99.99% of participants.

I've been following this thread since the start; A Definite Beta Guy was right to call out here (or maybe the Russia thread which is very similar?) about the red-colored shed, and then I saw theoatmeal linked about parallel themes. But you're right, this is probably not the place to question the motivations of why people hold their particular political beliefs.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #749 on: November 10, 2017, 06:58:15 PM »
Well maybe this is a room that deserves to be cleared (it already stank before I arrived anyway). I doubt there is any concise way to demonstrate how liberating oneself from ideological prison is wonderful so I'm probably wasting my time preaching detachment. But so is everyone else when they argue back and forth without ever changing their minds about anything, which seems to be the outcome of such discussions for 99.99% of participants.

I've been following this thread since the start; A Definite Beta Guy was right to call out here (or maybe the Russia thread which is very similar?) about the red-colored shed, and then I saw theoatmeal linked about parallel themes. But you're right, this is probably not the place to question the motivations of why people hold their particular political beliefs.

So you're suggesting that Moore might still win because people have deeply held political beliefs that can't be shaken?