Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 622212 times)

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6750 on: March 29, 2019, 10:21:04 AM »

Also, there is waaaaaaaaaay more domestic propaganda than international. What about all of that?


It's not as sexy and dramatic as talking about the big bad russians.

Do we really have to explain why citizens get to have a say in our political processes but foreigners don't?

Yeah, I could do with the Koch brothers getting their fingers out of our affairs.

While I would very much like to bring their political power more in line with an average citizens, I still believe they have a right to have and share their opinions on our political process so long as they are a part of our society.

My post was about two things:
1) Do you think the foreign propaganda rose above a "noise" level given all of the domestic propaganda?

And more importantly
2) What are we going to do about foreign or domestic propaganda if anything? The world's communication is so interconnected that unless we go North Korea style it's not a problem that can be addressed on the by impacting the side of the people creating the propaganda. It has to be addressed by educating the public to assess information.

Also, @shenlong55, what you said about citizens having a say in the political process and foreigners shouldn't, I think this is a broad statement that needs to be thought through. I am not a US citizen. I frequently talk to my US citizen friends about politics, and even try to sway their views on some issues. Should that be illegal? If not, where do you draw the line?

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6751 on: March 29, 2019, 11:12:03 AM »

Also, there is waaaaaaaaaay more domestic propaganda than international. What about all of that?


It's not as sexy and dramatic as talking about the big bad russians.

Do we really have to explain why citizens get to have a say in our political processes but foreigners don't?

Yeah, I could do with the Koch brothers getting their fingers out of our affairs.

While I would very much like to bring their political power more in line with an average citizens, I still believe they have a right to have and share their opinions on our political process so long as they are a part of our society.

My post was about two things:
1) Do you think the foreign propaganda rose above a "noise" level given all of the domestic propaganda?

Who says they're separate issues?  My understanding is that the foreign propaganda was mostly amplifying the domestic propaganda.  So whereas both are an issue, I'd say the domestic propaganda at least has some legitimacy.  So the best solution to me is to first address the foreign propaganda which will also reduce the effects of the domestic propaganda.

And more importantly
2) What are we going to do about foreign or domestic propaganda if anything? The world's communication is so interconnected that unless we go North Korea style it's not a problem that can be addressed on the by impacting the side of the people creating the propaganda. It has to be addressed by educating the public to assess information.

I mean, basically the same way you set personal boundaries.

Step 1: Communicate to the other party clearly that the behavior is unacceptable.
Step 2: Who cares, since our current government can't even accomplish step 1 I agree that we need to just accept that there will be more foreign involvement in our politics in the future and try to mitigate it by educating our fellow citizens.   I just don't understand why anyone trying to do that would also be trying to minimize the effects of the problem instead of using it as an example to help show why a skill like properly assessing information sources is an important skill to develop.

Also, @shenlong55, what you said about citizens having a say in the political process and foreigners shouldn't, I think this is a broad statement that needs to be thought through. I am not a US citizen. I frequently talk to my US citizen friends about politics, and even try to sway their views on some issues. Should that be illegal? If not, where do you draw the line?

I think that situation is about as far as you can get from a foreign government making a coordinated effort to sow discord in our political discussions while still being in the same realm.  I'm not interested in censoring individuals, so I see no problem with you discussing US politics with friends.  But I would probably have a big problem with you banding together with other foreigners to create a PAC-like entity to lobby our government.  I don't want to wall us off from foreign political ideas, but I do want US citizens to be primarily in control of their own government.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 12:14:40 PM by shenlong55 »

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6752 on: March 29, 2019, 11:58:43 AM »

Also, there is waaaaaaaaaay more domestic propaganda than international. What about all of that?


It's not as sexy and dramatic as talking about the big bad russians.

Do we really have to explain why citizens get to have a say in our political processes but foreigners don't?

Yeah, I could do with the Koch brothers getting their fingers out of our affairs.

While I would very much like to bring their political power more in line with an average citizens, I still believe they have a right to have and share their opinions on our political process so long as they are a part of our society.

They are part of YOUR (i.e. U.S.) society.  They are not part of mine (different country, eh?) but they pour all sorts of money into Canadian Right-wing think tanks.  Our right wing parties have gotten way more right wing since they got involved.

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6753 on: March 29, 2019, 12:06:26 PM »

Also, there is waaaaaaaaaay more domestic propaganda than international. What about all of that?


It's not as sexy and dramatic as talking about the big bad russians.

Do we really have to explain why citizens get to have a say in our political processes but foreigners don't?

Yeah, I could do with the Koch brothers getting their fingers out of our affairs.

While I would very much like to bring their political power more in line with an average citizens, I still believe they have a right to have and share their opinions on our political process so long as they are a part of our society.

They are part of YOUR (i.e. U.S.) society.  They are not part of mine (different country, eh?) but they pour all sorts of money into Canadian Right-wing think tanks.  Our right wing parties have gotten way more right wing since they got involved.

Ah, I see.  Sorry, I misunderstood you.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6754 on: March 29, 2019, 01:47:48 PM »

Also, @shenlong55, what you said about citizens having a say in the political process and foreigners shouldn't, I think this is a broad statement that needs to be thought through. I am not a US citizen. I frequently talk to my US citizen friends about politics, and even try to sway their views on some issues. Should that be illegal? If not, where do you draw the line?

I think that situation is about as far as you can get from a foreign government making a coordinated effort to sow discord in our political discussions while still being in the same realm.  I'm not interested in censoring individuals, so I see no problem with you discussing US politics with friends. But I would probably have a big problem with you banding together with other foreigners to create a PAC-like entity to lobby our government.  I don't want to wall us off from foreign political ideas, but I do want US citizens to be primarily in control of their own government.

You know this is perfectly legal already right? Foreign companies can set up PACs with their American divisions. Permanent residents can contribute just like citizens to any PAC.

There are numerous groups that advocate for various foreign interests in perfect lockstep with the governments of those countries (one such example is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, but there are others for all sorts of countries). Should the US ban these organizations somehow?

The citizens are in control of the government, they are the only ones who vote. You want to control what information those citizens get.

HBFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6755 on: March 29, 2019, 01:53:36 PM »

The citizens are in control of the government, they are the only ones who vote. You want to control what information those citizens get.

Hmm, sounds like a lot like China.

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6756 on: March 29, 2019, 02:31:14 PM »
So this happened at the confirmation hearing for Trump's interior secretary David Bernhardt (to replace Ryan Zinke who resigned amid multiple ethics investigations)



Well shit. I had to look at this three times before I saw the space alien.

I actually thought problem was the partially hidden guy on the right who looks like he is gushing blood from his eye.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6757 on: March 29, 2019, 02:43:04 PM »

Well shit. I had to look at this three times before I saw the space alien.

I'm pretty certain that's supposed to be a 'swamp monster', specifically one from the Hollywood classic: The Creature From the Black Lagoon.
(ya know... 'drain the swamp'...)


Apparently there were multiple in the room - though only one managed to get seated directly in the camera's line of sight.

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6758 on: March 29, 2019, 02:54:56 PM »

Also, @shenlong55, what you said about citizens having a say in the political process and foreigners shouldn't, I think this is a broad statement that needs to be thought through. I am not a US citizen. I frequently talk to my US citizen friends about politics, and even try to sway their views on some issues. Should that be illegal? If not, where do you draw the line?

I think that situation is about as far as you can get from a foreign government making a coordinated effort to sow discord in our political discussions while still being in the same realm.  I'm not interested in censoring individuals, so I see no problem with you discussing US politics with friends. But I would probably have a big problem with you banding together with other foreigners to create a PAC-like entity to lobby our government.  I don't want to wall us off from foreign political ideas, but I do want US citizens to be primarily in control of their own government.

You know this is perfectly legal already right? Foreign companies can set up PACs with their American divisions. Permanent residents can contribute just like citizens to any PAC.

There are numerous groups that advocate for various foreign interests in perfect lockstep with the governments of those countries (one such example is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, but there are others for all sorts of countries). Should the US ban these organizations somehow?

The citizens are in control of the government, they are the only ones who vote. You want to control what information those citizens get.

Oh, I see. I thought the word 'citizen' was probably too specific when I typed it, but I couldn't think of a better one at the time.  I'm fine with those examples.  Though I'm not a fan of AIPAC, in this case I think it's up to our representatives to know not to give their views too much weight.

And no, I don't want to control what information people get and I have to say I don't appreciate you assuming that you know what I want better than I do.  I thinks it's incredibly rude and it makes me disinclined to engage with you in the future.

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6759 on: March 29, 2019, 07:23:43 PM »

Well shit. I had to look at this three times before I saw the space alien.

I'm pretty certain that's supposed to be a 'swamp monster', specifically one from the Hollywood classic: The Creature From the Black Lagoon.
(ya know... 'drain the swamp'...)


Apparently there were multiple in the room - though only one managed to get seated directly in the camera's line of sight.

Is this a new meme in Washington?   

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6760 on: March 29, 2019, 07:25:15 PM »
They're here too!




EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6761 on: March 30, 2019, 06:35:35 PM »
Just catching up on news and, let's see, we have migrants flooding in to the US because the border is about to be shut down, we have detention capacity issues and inability to hire more border patrol agents, we have Trump trying to repeal Obamacare...  I'm just really not sure where to start.  At least we're not Brexiting I guess.  As America steps down from its leadership position, Brazil, Venezuela, and Mexico seem to be moving back toward Nationalism (since it's working so well in the US).  China seems to be the only country really rising on all this (unless the US somehow makes it's growth model self sufficient, something tells me Trump is not hard at work on this in the background - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gNZtI7hbvI).  It'll be interesting to see what gives first in the US - the economy, the environment, social unrest...

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6762 on: March 31, 2019, 09:27:13 AM »
Just catching up on news and, let's see, we have migrants flooding in to the US because the border is about to be shut down, we have detention capacity issues and inability to hire more border patrol agents, we have Trump trying to repeal Obamacare...  I'm just really not sure where to start.  At least we're not Brexiting I guess.  As America steps down from its leadership position, Brazil, Venezuela, and Mexico seem to be moving back toward Nationalism (since it's working so well in the US).  China seems to be the only country really rising on all this (unless the US somehow makes it's growth model self sufficient, something tells me Trump is not hard at work on this in the background - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gNZtI7hbvI).  It'll be interesting to see what gives first in the US - the economy, the environment, social unrest...

umm, you've been "brexiting" from your normal trading partners for 2 years, just not as formally as the UK is with the EU.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6763 on: March 31, 2019, 09:59:15 AM »
Just catching up on news and, let's see, we have migrants flooding in to the US because the border is about to be shut down, we have detention capacity issues and inability to hire more border patrol agents, we have Trump trying to repeal Obamacare...  I'm just really not sure where to start.  At least we're not Brexiting I guess.  As America steps down from its leadership position, Brazil, Venezuela, and Mexico seem to be moving back toward Nationalism (since it's working so well in the US).  China seems to be the only country really rising on all this (unless the US somehow makes it's growth model self sufficient, something tells me Trump is not hard at work on this in the background - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gNZtI7hbvI).  It'll be interesting to see what gives first in the US - the economy, the environment, social unrest...

umm, you've been "brexiting" from your normal trading partners for 2 years, just not as formally as the UK is with the EU.

And more chaotically.

Which is quite a feat.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6764 on: March 31, 2019, 12:46:37 PM »
Quote
Syria Says U.S. Should Give Israel 'South Carolina' Instead of Golan Heights, 'It's the Land of Senator Lindsey Graham'

https://www.newsweek.com/syria-give-israel-south-carolina-golan-lindsey-graham-1378753

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6765 on: March 31, 2019, 04:06:41 PM »
Quote
Syria Says U.S. Should Give Israel 'South Carolina' Instead of Golan Heights, 'It's the Land of Senator Lindsey Graham'

https://www.newsweek.com/syria-give-israel-south-carolina-golan-lindsey-graham-1378753

Zing!

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6766 on: April 01, 2019, 12:50:47 AM »
Quote
Syria Says U.S. Should Give Israel 'South Carolina' Instead of Golan Heights, 'It's the Land of Senator Lindsey Graham'

https://www.newsweek.com/syria-give-israel-south-carolina-golan-lindsey-graham-1378753

Zing!
How about Washington D.C.?
It is more fitting in size, in the middle as the Golan hights and a war zone too, albeit a different type.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6767 on: April 02, 2019, 03:23:52 PM »
"James Comey Says He’s Still Worried He Helped Trump Win"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/james-comey-donald-trump-2016-election_n_5ca3a071e4b0c32979613e17

Quote
“I hope someday somebody proves that what we did was irrelevant,” he said of the Clinton email probe.

No, James. Just no. What a tool.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6768 on: April 02, 2019, 06:59:12 PM »
GOP is the party of healthcare!  McTurtle shut that down today. 
I hope Magnificent Orange shuts Mexico, it will backfire tremendously.

Glenstache

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Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6770 on: April 03, 2019, 12:57:54 PM »
He also seemed to be incapable of pronouncing "origins"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-mueller-report-oranges-wind-farms-noise-cancer-a8852111.html

“I hope they now go and take a look at the oranges, the oranges of the investigation, the beginnings of that investigation,” Mr Trump said.

“The Mueller report I wished covered the oranges, how it started, the beginnings of the investigation, how it started. It didn’t cover that, and for some reason none of that was discussed.”

Even more evidence that he can't stop talking about himself

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6771 on: April 03, 2019, 01:24:21 PM »
meanwhile in dementia-land:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/fivepoints/five-most-bizarre-moments-trump-speech

My favorite part was when he looked right into the cspan camera and said "Someone’s gonna leak this whole damn speech to the media, the fake news."

Uh, dude, you're literally on live TV all over the world, right now at this very moment.  You sat in a make-up chair for an hour while your stylist prepared you for your TV appearance.  You have a teleprompter in front of you.  I think you might be confused about what constitutes a "leak".

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6772 on: April 03, 2019, 01:46:35 PM »
meanwhile in dementia-land:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/fivepoints/five-most-bizarre-moments-trump-speech

My favorite part was when he looked right into the cspan camera and said "Someone’s gonna leak this whole damn speech to the media, the fake news."

Uh, dude, you're literally on live TV all over the world, right now at this very moment.  You sat in a make-up chair for an hour while your stylist prepared you for your TV appearance.  You have a teleprompter in front of you.  I think you might be confused about what constitutes a "leak".

Perhaps the leak is somewhere around his frontal lobe?

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6773 on: April 03, 2019, 04:55:16 PM »
  McTurtle 


I just guffawed.

Mitch does resemble a turtle.

Ha!

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6774 on: April 03, 2019, 05:27:13 PM »
Welp. This should both be (eventually) enlightening and (immediately) get Trump going on twitter.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/politics/mueller-report-subpoena-house.html

Quote
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, using a little-known provision in the federal tax code, formally requested on Wednesday that the I.R.S. hand over six years of President Trump’s personal and business tax returns, starting what is likely to be a momentous fight with his administration.

Representative Richard E. Neal, Democrat of Massachusetts, hand-delivered a two-page letter laying out the request to Charles P. Rettig, the Internal Revenue Service commissioner, ending months of speculation about when he would do so and almost certainly prompting a legal challenge from the Trump administration.

jrhampt

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6775 on: April 03, 2019, 05:39:37 PM »
Welp. This should both be (eventually) enlightening and (immediately) get Trump going on twitter.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/politics/mueller-report-subpoena-house.html

Quote
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, using a little-known provision in the federal tax code, formally requested on Wednesday that the I.R.S. hand over six years of President Trump’s personal and business tax returns, starting what is likely to be a momentous fight with his administration.

Representative Richard E. Neal, Democrat of Massachusetts, hand-delivered a two-page letter laying out the request to Charles P. Rettig, the Internal Revenue Service commissioner, ending months of speculation about when he would do so and almost certainly prompting a legal challenge from the Trump administration.

Finally. 

sequoia

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Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6777 on: April 04, 2019, 07:49:30 AM »
Most of my opposition to the current administration is altruistic or in consideration of the long term.  But this, like losing the SALT deduction, hits soon, and hard.

"The Trump administration plans to shift much of the power and responsibility for food safety inspections in hog plants to the pork industry as early as May, cutting the number of federal inspectors by about 40% and replacing them with plant employees...
The Trump administration also is working to shift inspection of beef to plant owners. U.S. Department of Agriculture officials are scheduled next month to discuss the proposed changes with the meat industry."

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pork-industry-hogs-plants-trump-regulations-20190403-story.html

ketchup

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6778 on: April 04, 2019, 07:52:28 AM »
Most of my opposition to the current administration is altruistic or in consideration of the long term.  But this, like losing the SALT deduction, hits soon, and hard.

"The Trump administration plans to shift much of the power and responsibility for food safety inspections in hog plants to the pork industry as early as May, cutting the number of federal inspectors by about 40% and replacing them with plant employees...
The Trump administration also is working to shift inspection of beef to plant owners. U.S. Department of Agriculture officials are scheduled next month to discuss the proposed changes with the meat industry."

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pork-industry-hogs-plants-trump-regulations-20190403-story.html
Because self-regulation always works, just like in pharma, health insurance, and finance.

Cool Friend

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6779 on: April 04, 2019, 07:55:04 AM »
Good time as any to go vegetarian, I guess.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6780 on: April 04, 2019, 07:59:58 AM »
I've been pretty consistent in disclosing my #nevertrumper status (although I maintain my GOP registration hoping there might be a primary on that side).

While I have a curiosity as to what the tax returns will reveal, I'm worried that it will bite the Democrats. With the way the end-game of the Mueller report has been managed by Barr, I think D leadership is coming together around the strategy of having to beat Trump in the 2020 election. And the success of 2018 showed that this can be done via policy, particularly health care policy.

Picking on Trump via the tax return thing just seems like it could turn him into a martyr in a weaker form of what impeachment might have done to him.

Cool Friend

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6781 on: April 04, 2019, 08:20:42 AM »
Yeah I'm not sure how much of an impact it will have, as no one who supports him seems to give a shit that he's a well-documented con man.  Can't see how more evidence that he's a crook would make any difference.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6782 on: April 04, 2019, 08:45:29 AM »
The fun of his tax returns, is that they'll be able to throw up the numbers of how much TRUMP himself is saving due to the tax cuts. and then compare to normal US citizens.

People don't like when rich people change the rules to become richer personally.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6783 on: April 04, 2019, 09:04:40 AM »
If Trump truly is suffering from mental decline, how long can the Repubs hide it? He isn't the type of person they can wheel in a closet and have talking heads speak for him. He has made off the wall remarks about the sound of windmills causing cancer, can't pronounce origin, repeats himself constantly, tells the public his father was born in Germany and all the other crazy things he says and tweets each day.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6784 on: April 04, 2019, 09:08:10 AM »
The fun of his tax returns, is that they'll be able to throw up the numbers of how much TRUMP himself is saving due to the tax cuts. and then compare to normal US citizens.

People don't like when rich people change the rules to become richer personally.

In the US as least this hasn't been a problem. In fact if people point that out (rich politicians passing legislation that helps themselves and their rich friends) the response is usually, you just hate rich people because they are so successful.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6785 on: April 04, 2019, 09:15:59 AM »
The difference is that he hides it, and it`s his personal taxes. Everyone else it`s available public, you can see the effect longterm (gets boring). If they spring his tax during the campaign... Might give a nice boost.

Imagine the banner with Trump`s annual savings due to his policies, and tiny savings of others (I'm sure they will find a scenario that the tax cuts didn`t help)

Add in Healthcare woes....

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6786 on: April 04, 2019, 09:16:48 AM »
The fun of his tax returns, is that they'll be able to throw up the numbers of how much TRUMP himself is saving due to the tax cuts. and then compare to normal US citizens.

People don't like when rich people change the rules to become richer personally.

No, the fun part is that Trump will have to abide by the transparency rules and norms that have applied to all other previous modern presidents.  It doesn't matter if Trump's tax returns are squeaky clean and he pays extra taxes, the whole point is that he doesn't get to hide them just because he wants to be a dick about it.

I do not for one second believe that Trump's taxes are squeaky clean or that he pays extra taxes, btw.  He's a known fraudster in every other area of his life (businesses, marriages, politics, etc) so a fault-free tax return history would actually be pretty shocking.  I still want every candidate to disclose their tax returns, though, regardless of what's in them.  It's just good policy.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 03:30:31 PM by sol »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6787 on: April 04, 2019, 10:13:48 AM »
On Trump tax returns - I just want to know about the conflicts of interest.  I hate being kept in the dark (or only partially knowing) how much of Trump's decisions benefit himself.  I mean, obviously he has hotels and properties that he can leverage his Presidency to further enrich himself.  But what else is he hiding?  Like, maybe this meat inspection rollback mentioned above benefits his Trump Steak business?  Maybe he gets income from some coal mining businesses?  Wall building or American steel industry ownership?  Also, the President should be held to a standard to put public interests above his own.  How can we hold a President to this standard if they can hide this 'proof' that their actions are in keeping with being a public servant.  Showing tax returns should be a non-issue, common sense would dictate that he should even want to do this to clear the air and move on.

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6788 on: April 04, 2019, 10:22:03 AM »
It might also prove that he's not really a billionaire. 

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6789 on: April 04, 2019, 10:58:14 AM »
Most of my opposition to the current administration is altruistic or in consideration of the long term.  But this, like losing the SALT deduction, hits soon, and hard.

"The Trump administration plans to shift much of the power and responsibility for food safety inspections in hog plants to the pork industry as early as May, cutting the number of federal inspectors by about 40% and replacing them with plant employees...
The Trump administration also is working to shift inspection of beef to plant owners. U.S. Department of Agriculture officials are scheduled next month to discuss the proposed changes with the meat industry."

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pork-industry-hogs-plants-trump-regulations-20190403-story.html
Because self-regulation always works, just like in pharma, health insurance, and finance.

And for a truly up to date example, airplanes.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6790 on: April 04, 2019, 11:06:31 AM »
It might also prove that he's not really a billionaire.

How? Does US tax returns show assets? You could have lots and lots of investments that don`t pay dividends, and have no capital gains, and nobody would see it on the tax returns right?

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6791 on: April 04, 2019, 11:12:14 AM »
It might also prove that he's not really a billionaire.

How? Does US tax returns show assets? You could have lots and lots of investments that don`t pay dividends, and have no capital gains, and nobody would see it on the tax returns right?

You could probably derive 90% of a person's wealth from their tax return. For us individuals We have 70% of our wealth in our house and retirement accounts which likely wouldn't show. But Trump would have RMD's, RE depreciation, and Business profit/loss that would more or less give you a likely net worth figure.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6792 on: April 04, 2019, 11:52:16 AM »
The fun of his tax returns, is that they'll be able to throw up the numbers of how much TRUMP himself is saving due to the tax cuts. and then compare to normal US citizens.

The tax cuts went into effect for 2018, and I seriously doubt that he and his companies will file an tax returns for 2018 until at least October, and will probably (if not already) not devise a plan to keep extending his deadline out until after the 2020 election.

No, the real interest would be from the 90s to the 00s, when he suffered major set backs in his business, and for which public evidence suggest that he was bailed out by Russian and other foreign interests. He may have keep 2010-now squeaky clean as he was clearly priming for a presidential run soon after Obama was elected

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6793 on: April 04, 2019, 12:01:41 PM »
The fun of his tax returns, is that they'll be able to throw up the numbers of how much TRUMP himself is saving due to the tax cuts. and then compare to normal US citizens.

The tax cuts went into effect for 2018, and I seriously doubt that he and his companies will file an tax returns for 2018 until at least October, and will probably (if not already) not devise a plan to keep extending his deadline out until after the 2020 election.


You can use 2017 tax return, and then apply the new tax rules.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6794 on: April 04, 2019, 08:16:32 PM »
It might also prove that he's not really a billionaire. 
I suspect this is the true reason he doesn't want to disclose them.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6795 on: April 05, 2019, 09:42:55 AM »
Seems when the House was no longer Republican controlled and they made it clear they were going to request Trump's tax returns, Trump promptly pushed for his IRS chief council nominee to be accelerated.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/05/politics/trump-taxes-irs-nominee/index.html

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6796 on: April 05, 2019, 01:22:09 PM »
Honestly, I think we're going to have to accept that Trump is a billionaire. A fraud, sure, but proving someone with $billions in assets and $billions in debt is not a billionaire will depend entirely on valuation procedures that are not understandable to non-specialists.

There's a ton of real estate and business assets that can have their values take wide ranges.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6797 on: April 05, 2019, 01:48:00 PM »
Honestly, I think we're going to have to accept that Trump is a billionaire. A fraud, sure, but proving someone with $billions in assets and $billions in debt is not a billionaire will depend entirely on valuation procedures that are not understandable to non-specialists.

There's a ton of real estate and business assets that can have their values take wide ranges.

I don't care whether he's a billionaire.

I care whether he is a narcissistic, pathological liar.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6798 on: April 05, 2019, 02:16:00 PM »
Honestly, I think we're going to have to accept that Trump is a billionaire. A fraud, sure, but proving someone with $billions in assets and $billions in debt is not a billionaire will depend entirely on valuation procedures that are not understandable to non-specialists.

There's a ton of real estate and business assets that can have their values take wide ranges.

I think the key here is going to be why Trump is a billionaire.

For example, we already know that the Trump family transferred hundreds of millions of dollars to Donald before he was an adult, through fraudulent business activity.  For example, Fred made 10 year old Donald the CEO of a cleaning services company that maintained the family's apartment buildings in Queens, and then had the company overcharge the Trump family business for supplies.  Donald pocketed the surplus "profits" but the reality was this was just way for Fred to make kiddie Donald rich without paying the correct amount of taxes.

We also know that adult Donald's real estate empire was severely mismanaged, several times resulting in bankruptcy and several more times only saved from bankruptcy by enormous infusions of foreign cash, including from organized crime and from Russian oligarch and from Russian oligarchs involved in organized crime.  Donald owes the longevity of his business empire to the Russians (and people from other former Soviet republics).  Eric and Don Jr. have talked about their gratitude for the Russians publicly on numerous occasions, before Donald ran for president.  For example, in 2008 Don Jr said "Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets" and in 2016 Eric said "We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia."  Trump's tax returns are likely to show a long history of servicing his Russian debts, as tax deductions.

Then there's the fraudulent way Trump has inflated his self worth, once jumping roughly $4billion in a single year when his accountants decided to include the hypothetically monetized value of the Trump brand name, by converting his recently received licensing fees into a lump sum using the treasury rate.  So if someone paid him $1 million in licensing fees for a hotel in a year when the treasury rate dropped to 0.25%, he claimed that his brand name was worth $200k/0.25 pecent, or $400,000,000.  Even if the entire hotel was only worth half that, he claimed his personal net worth increase from that deal went up by a multiple of his licensing fee.  His entire business history is full of this of this kind of tomfoolery, attempts to make himself appear richer than he is.  His tax returns will reveal all kinds of deals like this, not to mention the litany of real estate deductions he's using to show "losses" on profitable properties.

Trump's tax returns will also show that he is still receiving net income from his ownership stake in a variety of businesses and properties.  Let's not forget that he refused to put his assets into a blind trust, the way every previous president with assets has done.  He's still personally making money every time he invites the Saudi royal family to stay in his DC hotel.

I mean realistically, we can see what Trump owns because he likes to put his name on things that he owns.  He owns 17 gold courses that collectively make over $200m per year.  He has partial or full ownership stakes in approximately 60 different buildings, mostly hotels/apartments/commercial spaces.  Then there's a private jet subcontractor, a variety of real estate-related development corps, and a media company.  All of this stuff is public knowledge.  It's not always straightforward to value a company or a property, but individually I agree that they add up to more than a billion dollars by any commonly used metric.  So it's fair to call him a billionaire, I think. 

But actually seeing the annual paperwork sure would make this whole discussion a lot easier.  If the American President has committed tax fraud, don't the American people deserve to know?  How can we be expected to pay our fair share if he won't?

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6799 on: April 05, 2019, 03:12:52 PM »
No, the fun part is that Trump will have to abide by the transparency rules and norms that have applied to all previous presidents.  It doesn't matter if Trump's tax returns are squeaky clean and he pays extra taxes, the whole point is that he doesn't get to hide them just because he wants to be a dick about it.

I do not for one second believe that Trump's taxes are squeaky clean or that he pays extra taxes, btw.  He's a known fraudster in every other area of his life (businesses, marriages, politics, etc) so a fault-free tax return history would actually be pretty shocking.  I still want every candidate to disclose their tax returns, though, regardless of what's in them.  It's just good policy.

Small point here -- but didn't the release of tax returns start with Tricky Dick?