Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 455875 times)

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4950 on: November 20, 2018, 05:43:24 PM »
Ivanka Trump didn't know the rules of email at the White House. OMG, really!

Daddy, daddy, what does lock her up mean?

Did she NOT hear the chant 'LOCK HER UP' 10,000 times if not more. What was Trump referring to at his goofy rally's when he got his BASE to chant like in a secret society 'lock her up'.

Daddy, daddy, what does lock her up mean?

Now Trump has ALL the answers on how different Ivanka's emails are from Hillary's. Hillary is the evil devil and little princess kitten Ivanka was just not aware it was an issue. DUH, DUH, DUH!

Trump has ALL the answers to everything.

I say Lock Ivanka Up and her father too!

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4951 on: November 20, 2018, 08:10:43 PM »
Bear with me everyone while I learn the best way to navigate this forum. I'm guessing the best way is to hit reply to each person that responds? Is that why there are these huge posts copied with a single sentence in response?

To tall texan, thank you for the welcome. I once spent a week together with a girl long ago from Texas that made me feel like a million bucks but sadly we parted ways. Said she was from the Woodlands.

GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

Our president is not articulate, you may have noticed. ;) Charlottesville is probably his most bungled response. Some believe he equated Neo-Nazi's on par with fine people and others view his remarks as referring to simple statue protesters. I really don't know but this is what I think he was trying to convey: two groups of people, both vile in my opinion, went down there to fight and of course the innocent by-stander is killed. But the large majority was there to simply protest and I think that was who he was referring to and subsequently he articulated that he has no affinity for Neo-Nazis, soundly renouncing them soon after that comment. I think that one comes down to whether you hate him or not.

Nereo

Thank you for the welcome and no I won't be reporting to the moderators. I just got here. ;) I think some people get a little too comfortable sometimes and forget they are in mixed company.

DaMa

I didn't vote for Trump because he was a Republican. I am independent through and through. I voted for him because Hillary would have been a disaster. She has been mired in scandal since her Arkansas days. I'm old enough to remember. Thank you for the welcome.

Wexler

Thanks for the explanation. See, most people aren't as bad as they sometimes portray themselves? Out of curiosity, what do you think a typical Republican or conservative ideology actually is?

caracarn

Single issue voters are a problem but they are the norm. Guns, abortion, pick your favorite cause. Thanks for the welcome.

Ok, look forward to conversing with you guys.








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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4952 on: November 21, 2018, 02:34:29 AM »
Welcome, Versatile.  I hope you will also explore other parts of the forum more central to the MMM message.

I tend to use the quote function and then edit like mad, as follows -

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Trump won at least in part because there are Obama supporters who didn't vote for Hillary, rather than there being Obama supporters who voted for Trump.  As to the Obama supporters who did vote for Trump, part of it may be that Trump's racism was easier to ignore before he became President.  But part of it I suspect may also be racism - that a little equality is OK but let's not have too much of it, and that Trump definitely gave off that vibe when campaigning (as does the Republican party in general with all its suppress the black vote tactics).  I certainly don't think the evidence is there that the election of Obama cured all racism in the USA for ever.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?
It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?
  Well, the dangers for women (and men too) trying to cross the border I suspect don't come from fellow migrants to the USA but from those who stay in Mexico to prey on them.  Equating the violence involved in crossing the border illegally to violence from illegal immigrants within the USA does not compute.

As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.
"Muslim" in Trump world is a proxy for "person of colour", a indirect rather than explicit route to racism.  If the so-called Muslim ban had really been about terrorism it might have included the countries from which most terrorism in the USA has originated, rather than those from which none has.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4953 on: November 21, 2018, 06:04:16 AM »
GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?


Trump goes beyond those items, how about his singling out only black NFL players?  His treatment of the Central Park five?  How he often calls black politicians low IQ or not qualified?  Stacey Abrams is far more qualified in terms of education and experience than Brian Kemp. 

And Trump did not get tens of millions of non-Republican votes.  They just convinced Democrats to not turn out in key states.  Those Democrats turned out big this year and flipped several Governor races and House races, even Senate races.  There would be more, but gerrymandering is a thing. Even though they lost Senate seats, they were facing the worst map in decades and the Republicans still only managed to pick up 2 seats.  Republicans face a much worse map in 2020 including in my state in NC where the Democratic total vote was 52% and Republican total vote only 48%.  The map looks red in that state, but again, gerrymandering is a thing.   


DaMa

I didn't vote for Trump because he was a Republican. I am independent through and through. I voted for him because Hillary would have been a disaster. She has been mired in scandal since her Arkansas days. I'm old enough to remember. Thank you for the welcome.


Right, and this administration is not mired in daily scandal never before seen in a modern administration.  The incompetence, selling foreign policy, etc, etc.   

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4954 on: November 21, 2018, 06:26:19 AM »
It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

Both of these paragraphs are bullshit arguments that ''Sound'' good, but are proven to be incorrect. AND THAT`S WHY PEOPLE DON`T LIKE TRUMP.

For the immigration issues: The US is literally a country of immigrants. It makes no sense that the past immigrants are better than the current ones. Yes bad things happen to some people who are immigrating illegally, but what a surprise, That's why they are trying to get to the US. Not because it's to start of life of crime in the US, but rather because they can have a better life there. Using minuscule percentages and hear-say examples to brand everyone is what is racist and should be unacceptable. We need more people in a position of power that can tell Trump to back his arguments up with actual information that isn`t lies, or else get censored for them.
According to data from the study, a large majority of the areas have many more immigrants today than they did in 1980 and fewer violent crimes. The Marshall Project extended the study’s data up to 2016, showing that crime fell more often than it rose even as immigrant populations grew almost across the board.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/30/upshot/crime-immigration-myth.html

For that Muslim racist ban, there hasn't been a single terrorist attack in the US by anyone of the countries that were in the ban. Just google it and you'll see how it's simply racist dog-whistling that TRUMP will stop the bad people from coming in, even though it's not the right countries, there's no reason to single out those countries other than they are muslim, so they are racist. (Single link because I don't feel like linking all of them, just google how many terrorist attacks come from immigrants from Trump`s travel ban countries)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/06/29/the-travel-ban-going-into-effect-would-have-saved-zero-lives-from-terrorist-attacks-in-the-last-20-years/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3bc8f4ccae9e

Good god do I have issues with the bolded statement (I bolded it). Too bad the ban blocks everyone, and if only there was a system to vet people... Oh wait there is?Terrorists and extremists are not the average immigrants. People leave bad places, because they are bad places, not because they are bad people.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 06:52:27 AM by Lews Therin »

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4955 on: November 21, 2018, 07:16:00 AM »
Trump's not racist with the Muslim, his best friends right now are the Saudis. I wonder if he knows/cares where the 9/11 hijackers came from...

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4956 on: November 21, 2018, 07:26:22 AM »
Trump's not racist with the Muslim, his best friends right now are the Saudis. I wonder if he knows/cares where the 9/11 hijackers came from...

They did just dismember a journalist, so they won a lot of points there.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4957 on: November 21, 2018, 07:28:29 AM »
One of Trump's bigger stupidities is describing leaders of other countries as his "friends".  Leaders of countries don't have friends in other countries, they have professional relationships with the people leading countries which have congruent values or interests or with whom they can do business.

I don't think his capitulation to Saudia is about friendship.  I don't even think it is primarily about money - the economic arguments he puts forward are nonsense, and there is no future personal financial gain for him over supporting MBS as against his potential successors.  It is about Trump being a fundamentally weak person.  Weirdly, he is so psychologically weak that he can't even project power as leader of the USA, with all the economic, military and moral power that brings.

Crease

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4958 on: November 21, 2018, 07:43:07 AM »
Even giving the President the benefit of the doubt on motive, the Travel Bans were vaguely worded and carelessly executed. That is a major issue. But on motive, I found the selection of countries curious and I also found it curious that the administration was fighting for its implementation long after the initial 90 day period it claimed it needed to "figure out what the hell is going on" with those countries. None of it struck me as carefully calculated to protect national security. And DW and I lost many nights of sleep worried that DW's country (Indonesia) would be next on the list.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 07:46:39 AM by Crease »

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4959 on: November 21, 2018, 08:00:05 AM »
One of Trump's bigger stupidities is describing leaders of other countries as his "friends".  Leaders of countries don't have friends in other countries, they have professional relationships with the people leading countries which have congruent values or interests or with whom they can do business.


Good point.  That is why we have 'allies' (countries who's interest align with our own and with whom we are working on a common goal) and 'adversary' (countries who's interests are adverse to our own).  It shouldn;'t make one lick of difference whether one leader likes or dislikes another, only whether they can work together.  Actual friendships can be problematic even among allies because it could lead to one leader acting not in the best interests of his/her country, but for his/her 'friend'.
The fact that he goes around talking about certain leaders of adversarial countries being his 'friend' is a giant flashing red light, as we - by definition - don't have our national interests aligned to begin with.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4960 on: November 21, 2018, 08:06:29 AM »
Bear with me everyone while I learn the best way to navigate this forum. I'm guessing the best way is to hit reply to each person that responds? Is that why there are these huge posts copied with a single sentence in response?

To tall texan, thank you for the welcome. I once spent a week together with a girl long ago from Texas that made me feel like a million bucks but sadly we parted ways. Said she was from the Woodlands.

GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Supporting Trump now and voting for him two years ago are not the same thing. Also, GuitarStv never said Trump's supporters were overtly racist but that they supported someone who says overtly racist things. I suspect most people have some level of latent or hidden racism whether they support Trump or not, the difficult thing for us to understand is how someone continues to support a president who says such things.

Quote
Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

Of course everyone realizes not all Mexicans are rapists, but Trump is suggesting that a disproportionate number of Mexican immigrants are, which is not true. The fact that vulnerable people paying to get help crossing the border illegally are taken advantage of is not surprising in the least and has nothing to do with the victims of those crimes, the illegal immigrants.

On top of that, it's really more of a psychological ploy than anything based in reality. Most voters spend zero time reading about the data or any sort of in depth analysis of what's going on so just using the words Mexican and rapist in the same sentence causes our brains to make that association in the future. This has been well documented and affects even those of us who know better.

Quote
As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

As someone else mentioned, there is no sound explanation as to why these countries were selected. We can speculate but whatever the reason, it satisfied his base who tend to react to the prevalent fear mongering towards Muslims. Data does not give any credence to the idea that this ban is protecting us. I also find it interesting that you refer to it as a "Muslim ban" as Trump and many of his supporters argue vehemently that it is not a Muslim ban, it's a ban on dangerous countries. Regardless of what the supposed reasoning is, it's really a ban on "others". Personally I don't care if this one is classified as racism or not, it's still demonizing some group that ignorant people fear.

Most of what Trump says can be defended in the way you're doing now because he intentionally leaves his comments vague. He adds things onto the end like "and some of them are good people". He prefaces with "People are saying" or " I've been told by very important people". His inarticulateness allows his defenders to say "he didn't mean it that way" no matter what he says.

I would recommend doing some reading about the signs of rising authoritarianism if you're interested in understanding the opinions you've seen in this thread. I don't want to provide my own articles as you may feel they're biased against Trump but he's basically a textbook example. I hope your attachment to your decision to vote for him doesn't blind you to the facts; which, by the way, I think is what's happening to many of his supporters. I disagree with Kris that his supporters are "idiots" but I do think that most voters on both sides are ignorant to what's going on in the world and that those who voted for Trump are reluctant to seek information that might disagree with they're current worldview. Conveniently, Trump is creating an alternate reality for them where they never have to admit they were wrong.


« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 08:11:05 AM by Dabnasty »

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4961 on: November 21, 2018, 08:34:01 AM »
i think one thing is true, is that many people voted for Trump because they did not like Hillary. One of the reasons, rightly or wrongly, she perceived as being mired in scandal. When you actually look at the individual scandals (Bengazhi, emails, russian companies, Clinton and the blue dress, despite millions of dollars spent investigating her, they turned up nothing burgers. Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath. We already know that Trump has lied under oath (and not under oath, and basically daily, about both mundane, narcissistic and but oh yeah important state, constitutional and election matters).  Anyways for those who voted for Trump because they thought he would be better choice than Clinton: LESS scandal, clean up government corruption, what do they think now? Surely they are not under any misunderstanding he and his administration is less corrupt and compromised than Hillary. I mean, as we speak, he is directly intervening in trying to shut down his own investigation having us wade in unknown consititutional waters! This is Nixon whitewater sh*t! Yes, Nixon still has him beat in convictions, but remember that Nixon was in office for two terms, while Trump has not yet finished out a first term. 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/9/18/1796668/-UPDATED-Comparing-Presidential-Administrations-by-felony-arrests-and-convictions-as-of-9-17-2018
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 08:36:04 AM by partgypsy »

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4962 on: November 21, 2018, 08:39:34 AM »
Adding more detail on my personal association with Trump voters in my family.

They see what they want to see, and fall into the situation many just covered of not really caring enough to do basic research.  My MIL is convinced that we are safer because we have a president who fights for us, even though there are no facts to back that up.  She just likes the fact that he talks tough and thinks being rude to our allies is a good way to get things.  The piece she refuses to see is basic negotiation skills (of which Trump is supposed to be a master at) show that boorish tactics like that only work in one off negotiations.  If you ever have to negotiate with them again (which we will unless the US removes itself from this planet and moves to another one) they now understand you are not negotiating in good faith and will act accordingly so you get a one and done strategy.  This is what I think has failed to materialize yet and why people who delude themselves into thinking he's doing any real, long lasting good still support him.

I voted for the most capable person, and Trump was far and away not that guy, as he has proven not that he's been given the power.  For all his bluster he's been quiet ineffective and then he continues to look like a fool when he does basic stupid things like try to convince people with the ability to think that his daughter's use of personal e-mail is in any material way different than what he wants his opponent, who he does not seem to want to date like he does his daughter, to suffer in the court of public opinion for. 

I will continue to hope that other candidates (even Republican ones) will step forward and offer better choices.  I am quite concerned about the spectre of Hilary running again, as that would be a disaster and I am amazed that this has even gotten any traction.  I think there is a lot that can be learned from the midterms on how to successfully combat the bullshit of Trump rhetoric.  Everyone should have learned that trading insults is not going to work, as for whatever reason his base ignores Trumps vileness or embraces it.  Either way, they punch the ticket for him in that case.  It will not be easy in 2020, but it should be possible.  I have seen more than enough to know he will still not have my vote.  Everything "good" he has done with court appointments and such is still tainted with the stench of rotten sewage that comes with the slime it came from.  I struggle with my personal views on this as being conservative I certainly would want less liberal judges appointed, but I am unable to bring myself to feel happy just for the results.  I guess it just shows that I am not an ends justifies the means kind of guy.  How we get something done is important to me, and the way we are getting the few conservative victories that are beneficial in my opinion feel horrible.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4963 on: November 21, 2018, 09:08:17 AM »
Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

I have to assume you are trolling here dude. Trump was literally convicted in a court of law way back in 1973 of housing discrimination. That's when it all started. He has a long storied history of racism long before he was President. The last couple of years of racist remarks is just icing on the cake. 

Meanwhile Trump just thanked Saudi Arabia today for oil prices while standing behind them in the midst of ordering the grizzly torture, murder and subsequent cover up of a U.S. citizen. Fucking despicable! Sorry but I personally have no respect for anyone who thinks this is all ok and even continues to support it. 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4964 on: November 21, 2018, 09:35:42 AM »
Meanwhile Trump just thanked Saudi Arabia today for oil prices while standing behind them in the midst of ordering the grizzly torture, murder and subsequent cover up of a U.S. citizen. Fucking despicable! Sorry but I personally have no respect for anyone who thinks this is all ok and even continues to support it.

"But her emails!"

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4965 on: November 21, 2018, 09:38:53 AM »
Meanwhile Trump just thanked Saudi Arabia today for oil prices while standing behind them in the midst of ordering the grizzly torture, murder and subsequent cover up of a U.S. citizen. Fucking despicable! Sorry but I personally have no respect for anyone who thinks this is all ok and even continues to support it.

"But her emails!"
Ivanka's?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4966 on: November 21, 2018, 09:51:03 AM »
GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

Trump didn't say that Mexican women are being raped while they try to cross the border illegally.  He explicitly said that Mexican immigrants are drug dealers, criminals, and rapists.

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists"

You appear to be arguing that Trump is too stupid to coherently form his thoughts into words, and therefore made a mistake.  That would be a more compelling argument if just the other day he hadn't said:

"With us, it's a lottery system — pick them out — a lottery system. You can imagine what those countries put into the system. They're not putting their good ones."

He has doubled down on the racist comments he made.  Your excuses for Trump's racist comments don't make much sense coming from someone claiming not to be racist himself.


As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

"Since 9/11, no one has been killed in this country in a terrorist attack by anyone who emigrated from any of the seven countries," William C. Banks (director of the Institute for National Security and Counterterrorism).  So, no.  This is not at all an issue of protection from potential terrorism.  It has nothing to do with national security, or the recommendation to do this would have come from the agencies responsible for protecting the security of the US.

I don't agree with you that making laws to discriminate against people because of the religion they worship is a good thing. 

I get that you aren't racist . . . just wonder why you support policies that will overwhelmingly impact people who aren't white, and that all evidence points to being completely unnecessary for "protection from terrorists".


Is Trump racist?  I don't know what he thinks, and can only judge by his actions.

I mean, there are the fines that Trump paid before becoming president because he refused to rent rooms to black people and the court cases where the federal government found a pattern of preferential treatment to whites.

There's the time that Trump took out a full page add urging the death penalty for five black and Latino kids accused of raping a white woman (later turned out the kids didn't do it).

There's also this quote:  "I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that. I’ve said on one occasion, even about myself, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really believe they do have an actual advantage."  where Trump indicates his belief that life is hard for people who aren't black.  Trump continually demanded Obama's birth certificate.  Trump lied that Obama “issued a statement for Kwanzaa but failed to issue one for Christmas.”

Trump took out anti-native American ads with messages like "Mohawk Indian record of criminal activity is well documented" when competing with a native casino.  He has said that he believes native Americans in Connecticut are faking their ancestry "I think I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations."  Trump has regularly derided Elizabeth Warren for "lying" about her ancestry, calling her Pocahontes . . . even when asked to stop by native groups. (A later blood test turned out that Warren does have native ancestry.)

After becoming president, there's the fact that Trump said a Mexican judge was unfit to work because of his race.  He said that immigrants from Haiti "All have AIDS".  He said that Nigerians would "never go back to their huts" after seeing America.  Trump has often retweeted white nationalists.  Trump has retweeted multiple anti-Semitic images.  Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio who made racial profiling of Latinos a regular part of his operation as sheriff.  Steve Bannon was an important member of Trump's inner circle for a long time, and also the publisher of the white nationalist supporting Breitbart website.

This list can go on and on.  As mentioned, I don't know what Trump's inner thoughts are, I can only judge by his actions.  His actions show a long standing pattern of overt racism.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4967 on: November 21, 2018, 09:55:18 AM »
Welcome, Versatile.  I hope you will also explore other parts of the forum more central to the MMM message.

I tend to use the quote function and then edit like mad, as follows -

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Trump won at least in part because there are Obama supporters who didn't vote for Hillary, rather than there being Obama supporters who voted for Trump.  As to the Obama supporters who did vote for Trump, part of it may be that Trump's racism was easier to ignore before he became President.  But part of it I suspect may also be racism - that a little equality is OK but let's not have too much of it, and that Trump definitely gave off that vibe when campaigning (as does the Republican party in general with all its suppress the black vote tactics).  I certainly don't think the evidence is there that the election of Obama cured all racism in the USA for ever.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?
It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?
  Well, the dangers for women (and men too) trying to cross the border I suspect don't come from fellow migrants to the USA but from those who stay in Mexico to prey on them.  Equating the violence involved in crossing the border illegally to violence from illegal immigrants within the USA does not compute.

As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.
"Muslim" in Trump world is a proxy for "person of colour", a indirect rather than explicit route to racism.  If the so-called Muslim ban had really been about terrorism it might have included the countries from which most terrorism in the USA has originated, rather than those from which none has.


Wow, lots of responses. I'll try to respond to everyone but I'm limited on time today as we have lots of people coming over tomorrow.


Quickly, I am refuting that tens of millions voted for Trump because they saw a fellow racist. Obama would have never won two presidential elections if that many people voted on race. So when people make blanket statements that all of Trump's supporters are racist, that is categorically false based on previous voting records alone. And yes, Trump won in part because many people stayed home that normally would have voted Democrat but you can't discount his share of the minority vote either, especially among Hispanics. I mean, it wasn't enough to swing the election but it was certainly noteworthy and that should tell you something.

Trump is a bullshitter that regularly embellishes his positions in the hope of getting a middle ground concession. He consistently gets people to talk about the issues he wants to address because they can't ignore him. His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.

I'm pretty sure Obama originated the list of countries of the "Muslim" ban. Now I don't know what prompted him to list these countries as potential terrorist threats but I don't have a problem with Trump implementing a temporary ban until the issue is straightened out. It wouldn't bother me to have a ban on all immigration until we collectively address our immigration laws, which like all laws need to be updated and addressed for current conditions.

 I disagree with you that muslim is proxy for person of color in Trump's eyes. You must understand this is something that you believe that is highly subjective on your part. Has Trump stated that all Muslims are person of color? Or is this an interpretation of what you would like to believe?

Crease

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4968 on: November 21, 2018, 10:17:18 AM »
I'm pretty sure Obama originated the list of countries of the "Muslim" ban. Now I don't know what prompted him to list these countries as potential terrorist threats but I don't have a problem with Trump implementing a temporary ban until the issue is straightened out.


The law passed during the Obama Administration heightened vetting (i.e., required an in-person interview) for anyone who had visited those seven countries. Trump's executive orders outright banned entry for nationals from those countries but was otherwise silent on other persons who had visited them (which seems like a massive oversight if there was indeed a national security issue necessitating the orders).

It wouldn't bother me to have a ban on all immigration until we collectively address our immigration laws, which like all laws need to be updated and addressed for current conditions.

In your mind, how might this work? I'm an American citizen who met his wife while she was in New York on a study-based exchange visitor program visa. Her green card application is expected to kick around in the system for another 18 months. Does your ban apply to green card holders? Pending green card applicants? Those who are already here on a valid visa? Are we to drop her studies and my legal practice and start a new life in another country "until we collectively address our immigration laws?"



« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 12:51:23 PM by Crease »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4969 on: November 21, 2018, 10:23:00 AM »
Quickly, I am refuting that tens of millions voted for Trump because they saw a fellow racist. Obama would have never won two presidential elections if that many people voted on race. So when people make blanket statements that all of Trump's supporters are racist, that is categorically false based on previous voting records alone. And yes, Trump won in part because many people stayed home that normally would have voted Democrat but you can't discount his share of the minority vote either, especially among Hispanics. I mean, it wasn't enough to swing the election but it was certainly noteworthy and that should tell you something.

The minority vote does tell me something noteworthy:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-polarization-analysis/trump-won-with-lowest-minority-vote-in-decades-fueling-divisions-idUSKBN13I10B .  It tells me that you haven't researched this issue very well.

Your argument regarding people who voted for Obama/racism has been pretty well studied and disproven at this point:
 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/16/17980820/trump-obama-2016-race-racism-class-economy-2018-midterm


Trump is a bullshitter that regularly embellishes his positions in the hope of getting a middle ground concession. He consistently gets people to talk about the issues he wants to address because they can't ignore him. His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.

It's possible to make this point without being racist.  Trump has had many opportunities to do so.  He has chosen racism regularly.


I'm pretty sure Obama originated the list of countries of the "Muslim" ban. Now I don't know what prompted him to list these countries as potential terrorist threats but I don't have a problem with Trump implementing a temporary ban until the issue is straightened out. It wouldn't bother me to have a ban on all immigration until we collectively address our immigration laws, which like all laws need to be updated and addressed for current conditions.

Please provide your source of this information.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4970 on: November 21, 2018, 10:59:34 AM »
Trump is a bullshitter that regularly embellishes his positions in the hope of getting a middle ground concession. He consistently gets people to talk about the issues he wants to address because they can't ignore him. His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.
@Versatile - please share with us your source or article detailing how we are spending $100B per year addressing illegal immigration along our southern boarder.  I'm curious how that figure was arrived upon, and what proportion was due enforcement, what proportion was due to costs incurred by illegal immigrants themselves, etc.

Where I find the national dialog lacking is with historical context. By most accounts, the number of people entering the US illegally along our southern boarder has fallen dramatically in the last 15 years, and was almost an order of magnitude greater in the 80s and 90s.  Illegal immigration started to decline sharply during Bush (W)'s second term and that trend continued with Obama. As one of several metrics, apprehensions along the boarder are about 1/3 of where they were in 2000 (source: Factcheck from US Boarder Patrol data)

We've also seen the total population of unauthorized immigrants living in the US fall by over a million people since 2007 (from est. 12.2 to 11.1) showing a net loss of unauthorized immigrants in this country (source: Pew Research Center)

Both of these are occurring while the broader population in the US has expanded - by almost 30MM people just in the last decade.

These, among lots of other data, paint a picture contrary to the one you have suggested; we do not appear to have a massive illegal immigration problem, particularly when compared to recent decades.  Instead, we have many fewer illegal immigrants living in this country and many fewer immigrants apprehended while entering this country. As a percentage of the total population, the illegal immigrant population has been shrinking since 2007 and is around 3%.  For comparison, that is far less than the percentage of people in the US who have been incarcerated (i.e.legitimate criminals @ 4.4%).
From those data I have a hard time concluding anything other than this being a wedge issue, a false canard. 

ETA:  Graphs (below).  Because everyone likes graphs.

We've got far fewer apprehensions in recent years than in previous decades, including the first year of Trump's presidency.

Overall, our undocumented population has stabilized in absolute numbers, and is shrinking as a proportion of the total US population

The majority of illegal immigrants no longer get into the country by crossing the southern boarder illegally.  Rather, they are granted visas and do not leave. This calls into question the very prem,ise that we need more resources and troops along the southern boarder.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 01:19:48 PM by nereo »

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4971 on: November 21, 2018, 11:09:06 AM »
Trump is a bullshitter that regularly embellishes his positions in the hope of getting a middle ground concession. He consistently gets people to talk about the issues he wants to address because they can't ignore him. His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.

Nice try, but fact checking exists. Also, you realize that boats and coasts exist too right? A wall is defeated by... rope. or a ladder. or a shovel.
100 Billion is another flat out lie.
https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/
The overall effect of immigration on economic growth was positive

I'm done with Versatile`s comments, I'm assuming he's a troll.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4972 on: November 21, 2018, 11:37:48 AM »
Let's see how long it takes for troops at the border to run into conflict with posse comitatus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

And Trump (via Kelly) allowing troops to enforce laws at the border.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/11/21/white-house-approves-use-of-force-some-law-enforcement-roles-for-border-troops/

Maybe next they will be allowed to help DHS and border patrol up to 150 miles from the border? Maybe set up checkpoints? Maybe some other creative use?

Odds of a GOP controlled house/senate (for now) complaining about this?

use2betrix

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4973 on: November 21, 2018, 11:56:11 AM »
Quickly, I am refuting that tens of millions voted for Trump because they saw a fellow racist. Obama would have never won two presidential elections if that many people voted on race. So when people make blanket statements that all of Trump's supporters are racist, that is categorically false based on previous voting records alone. And yes, Trump won in part because many people stayed home that normally would have voted Democrat but you can't discount his share of the minority vote either, especially among Hispanics. I mean, it wasn't enough to swing the election but it was certainly noteworthy and that should tell you something.

The minority vote does tell me something noteworthy:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-polarization-analysis/trump-won-with-lowest-minority-vote-in-decades-fueling-divisions-idUSKBN13I10B .  It tells me that you haven't researched this issue very well.

Your argument regarding people who voted for Obama/racism has been pretty well studied and disproven at this point:
 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/16/17980820/trump-obama-2016-race-racism-class-economy-2018-midterm


Trump is a bullshitter that regularly embellishes his positions in the hope of getting a middle ground concession. He consistently gets people to talk about the issues he wants to address because they can't ignore him. His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.

It's possible to make this point without being racist.  Trump has had many opportunities to do so.  He has chosen racism regularly.


I'm pretty sure Obama originated the list of countries of the "Muslim" ban. Now I don't know what prompted him to list these countries as potential terrorist threats but I don't have a problem with Trump implementing a temporary ban until the issue is straightened out. It wouldn't bother me to have a ban on all immigration until we collectively address our immigration laws, which like all laws need to be updated and addressed for current conditions.

Please provide your source of this information.

While not a 100% fact regarding your last statement of the quote, the 7 countries Trump listed were previously identified by Obama’s administration as being 7 of the most dangerous/harboring the most terrorist activities...

https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/feb/07/reince-priebus/were-7-nations-identified-donald-trumps-travel-ban/

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4974 on: November 21, 2018, 12:42:15 PM »
His point, which is quite valid, is that our Southern border is quite porous and we have an illegal immigrant problem. When hundreds of thousands of people enter this country illegally each year to the tune of billions in dollars in costs each year than that is a noteworthy issue. I read recently we are spending collectively 100 billion a year addressing this problem.
I'll bite and I'll give you the same answer I give my parents who absorb Fox News like sponges and also believe we have an "illegal immigrant problem". 

Even using Trump's own dubious figures of 12 million illegal immigrants (I always love to see people try to justify how you get a count on a populace they insist are hiding and therefore not really countable) which is likely hyperbolic to cause fear and excitement, compare that to the total population which is over 350 million now.  I'm supposed to get worked up when just over 3% of the population might be part of this "problem"?!  For all the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth an alien landing on this planet with no knowledge of reality and only hearing a Trump press conference would think they had to be like 75% of the populace and coming at us at all times and the only thing keeping us alive is the fact that we can lock ourselves in our panic rooms and pray.  It's the most easily refuted situation with reasonable discourse of anything Trump purports to be a problem.  Crime statistics do not bear it out.  Most new immigrants have the lowest crime on record (I can dredge up the governmental stats again, but somewhat sick of the ongoing dog whistle that these are bad people and there are so many of them).  Running your number above against the supposed population it amounts to $8,333 per person per year, so at least it smells of the possibility or realism, but since an illegal immigrant cannot obtain any government services because they cannot pass the qualification (and if they can then it's a problem with our system not the fact that the immigrants are here) rules which require a social security card or some sort of government issued ID, the only way they are consuming much of anything is emergency room visits where they cannot be turned away.  Likely they are not all coming here to hurt themselves and visit the hospital so I find this hard to fathom.  Others have asked for sourcing for that figure, so we'll see what comes forth, but seems to be way overblown.

I cannot believe I am going to do this, but why don't we take the same approach that the NRA does?  We have processes and systems in the books to deal with illegal immigration, let's just enforce the laws we have, not spend money on walls and other things that are not needed and will likely just cost a lot more money and never solve the issue (as someone said, ropes, ladders, etc.).  Then we likely will have spent over $100B on the illegal immigrant problem to try to keep them out and it will still be a failure.  Enforce the inability to get any benefits.  Enforce the immigration vetting and processes we have and vet people as we always have (it is a tough process and always has been as I have heard from many of my family members about what their process was like fifty plus years ago).  Just like people say we do not need gun control, just enforce the controls we have, we do not need immigrant control, just enforce the controls we have.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4975 on: November 21, 2018, 01:08:14 PM »
I feel like the people who think our immigration process is easy or full of holes and needs strengthening doesn’t know anyone who has dealt with it. Everyone I know who has legally immigrated has had a process that was difficult, convoluted, length, or all of the above. This makes for a nice marketing opportunity for countries like France and Canada who would like the skilled workers in the US and can offer easier immigration processes.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4976 on: November 21, 2018, 01:16:10 PM »
GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?


Trump goes beyond those items, how about his singling out only black NFL players?  His treatment of the Central Park five?  How he often calls black politicians low IQ or not qualified?  Stacey Abrams is far more qualified in terms of education and experience than Brian Kemp. 

And Trump did not get tens of millions of non-Republican votes.  They just convinced Democrats to not turn out in key states.  Those Democrats turned out big this year and flipped several Governor races and House races, even Senate races.  There would be more, but gerrymandering is a thing. Even though they lost Senate seats, they were facing the worst map in decades and the Republicans still only managed to pick up 2 seats.  Republicans face a much worse map in 2020 including in my state in NC where the Democratic total vote was 52% and Republican total vote only 48%.  The map looks red in that state, but again, gerrymandering is a thing.   


DaMa

I didn't vote for Trump because he was a Republican. I am independent through and through. I voted for him because Hillary would have been a disaster. She has been mired in scandal since her Arkansas days. I'm old enough to remember. Thank you for the welcome.


Right, and this administration is not mired in daily scandal never before seen in a modern administration.  The incompetence, selling foreign policy, etc, etc.

O.k., A lot of people are responding and some multiple times so I'm just going to address each as they come along. Apparently I am the only one here willing to give Trump a shot so understand I am vastly out-numbered and this may take some time.

Regarding the NFL, each player has the right to protest. They can kneel, turn their back, whatever. Fans also have the right to view this as an insult to our flag and country. Attendance to my knowledge has consistently been down since the protesting began. I don't follow the NFL so I kind of don't care about the issue other than these actions really piss off a lot people. I have had friends tell me they will never watch or attend another game again.

Trump is a populist that high-jacks these issues for continued support. Like every other politician out there. I would really like to encounter Clinton one day and ask to borrow some hot sauce. ;)

Also, he insults everyone regardless of race. In fact, I would characterize his insults as the most equitable thing he does, no one is exempt, women, minorities, world leaders, war hero's, you get the picture. You might be a little more sensitive because he's hit your button on an off-limit target in your mind, but the dude will go into attack mode on anybody that comes after him. I first noticed this when he went after Fox News during the primaries. I mean, what Republican would diss on Fox? Trump.

Finally, I could write a book on why Clinton would have been horrible for this country, much worse than Trump. Maybe another time.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4977 on: November 21, 2018, 01:24:09 PM »


Finally, I could write a book on why Clinton would have been horrible for this country, much worse than Trump. Maybe another time.

I've lost track of the number of times I've seen or heard a Trump supporter say something to this effect. Funnily, though, I've never actually seen such a list of reasons from any of them.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4978 on: November 21, 2018, 01:26:21 PM »
I’m not sure that “my guy is equally awful to everyone” is a great selling statement.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4979 on: November 21, 2018, 01:43:23 PM »


Finally, I could write a book on why Clinton would have been horrible for this country, much worse than Trump. Maybe another time.

I've lost track of the number of times I've seen or heard a Trump supporter say something to this effect. Funnily, though, I've never actually seen such a list of reasons from any of them.

Problem with these sorts of statements is they are  ultimately "if only" scenarios.  They can never be tested and they ignore a myriad of unknowable outcomes.  such statements are rampant not just in politics but in sports (and a many other places) as well.

However, since it's been evoked, I think had HRC been president 1) the corporate tax cut would not have been signed, 2) deregulatory individuals would not have been at the helm of many federal offices (e.g. Pruitt, Zinke) 3) we would not have a trade war and we'd still be in the TPP, 4) she would not have alienated us so much from our closest allies

As potential results
i) we would not have had the 'sugar-high' run-ups in the stock market and corresponding addition to our national debt. The desire for the GOP to get some tax cuts could have yielded a bill which would have had at least a little more benefits to middle class families, and/or a compromise to protect social programs.
ii) enviornmental and financial oversight would have remained, incurring a cost but ensuring greater protections.  Our emissions would have continued to slow, instead of the recent uptick we're observing.
iii) multi-lateral pressure on China could have been far more effective at negotiating with China than these escalating tarrifs which (so far) are merely self-inflicted wounds
iv) allies (not "friends") are what you need to advance your country's goals.  I'd imagine HRC would have multi-national sanctions placed on the royal Saudi family

... I could go on, and I'll admit that nothing plays out in a vacuum. One event triggers shifts in everything else ('the butterfly effect').

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4980 on: November 21, 2018, 01:44:24 PM »
It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

Both of these paragraphs are bullshit arguments that ''Sound'' good, but are proven to be incorrect. AND THAT`S WHY PEOPLE DON`T LIKE TRUMP.

For the immigration issues: The US is literally a country of immigrants. It makes no sense that the past immigrants are better than the current ones. Yes bad things happen to some people who are immigrating illegally, but what a surprise, That's why they are trying to get to the US. Not because it's to start of life of crime in the US, but rather because they can have a better life there. Using minuscule percentages and hear-say examples to brand everyone is what is racist and should be unacceptable. We need more people in a position of power that can tell Trump to back his arguments up with actual information that isn`t lies, or else get censored for them.
According to data from the study, a large majority of the areas have many more immigrants today than they did in 1980 and fewer violent crimes. The Marshall Project extended the study’s data up to 2016, showing that crime fell more often than it rose even as immigrant populations grew almost across the board.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/30/upshot/crime-immigration-myth.html

For that Muslim racist ban, there hasn't been a single terrorist attack in the US by anyone of the countries that were in the ban. Just google it and you'll see how it's simply racist dog-whistling that TRUMP will stop the bad people from coming in, even though it's not the right countries, there's no reason to single out those countries other than they are muslim, so they are racist. (Single link because I don't feel like linking all of them, just google how many terrorist attacks come from immigrants from Trump`s travel ban countries)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/06/29/the-travel-ban-going-into-effect-would-have-saved-zero-lives-from-terrorist-attacks-in-the-last-20-years/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3bc8f4ccae9e

Good god do I have issues with the bolded statement (I bolded it). Too bad the ban blocks everyone, and if only there was a system to vet people... Oh wait there is?Terrorists and extremists are not the average immigrants. People leave bad places, because they are bad places, not because they are bad people.

Could it be because certain extremist groups thrive under the umbrella of Islam? I don't think the Obama Administration just picked these countries names out of a hat. That the religion hasn't had a reformation and has been unable or unwilling to purge itself of people willing to indiscriminately murder innocent people? Were you alive during 9-11? I personally never want to see that occur on U.S soil again or anywhere for that matter. Skin color isn't the issue here.

I think this country is in need of a national dialogue on immigration and how we want to shape this nation for the next hundred years or so. Our needs as a nation change and even though immigrants settled this nation doesn't mean our needs have remained the same. I don't have all of the answers but when you can't even open a dialogue without the name calling then this is not a good situation to be in.



GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4981 on: November 21, 2018, 01:52:58 PM »
O.k., A lot of people are responding and some multiple times so I'm just going to address each as they come along. Apparently I am the only one here willing to give Trump a shot so understand I am vastly out-numbered and this may take some time.

Actually, most people were willing to give Trump a shot when he was elected.  It's because of his actions that this is no longer the case.

Regarding the NFL, each player has the right to protest. They can kneel, turn their back, whatever. Fans also have the right to view this as an insult to our flag and country. Attendance to my knowledge has consistently been down since the protesting began. I don't follow the NFL so I kind of don't care about the issue other than these actions really piss off a lot people. I have had friends tell me they will never watch or attend another game again.

You're right.  These black players do have the right to do what they're doing.  Trump's actions regarding them are notable because he's so vocally against them.  It's not the place of the president to insert himself into the discussion.

“You have to stand proudly for the national anthem or you shouldn’t be playing, you shouldn’t be there. Maybe you shouldn’t be in the country”

“Wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, ‘Get that son of a bitch off the field right now!’”

"The NFL National Anthem Debate is alive and well again - can’t believe it! Isn’t it in contract that players must stand at attention, hand on heart? The $40,000,000 Commissioner must now make a stand. First time kneeling, out for game. Second time kneeling, out for season/no pay!"

“I think it’s personally not a good thing, I think it’s a terrible thing. And, you know, maybe he should find a country that works better for him. Let him try, it won’t happen.”

Trump is a populist that high-jacks these issues for continued support. Like every other politician out there. I would really like to encounter Clinton one day and ask to borrow some hot sauce. ;)

Also, he insults everyone regardless of race. In fact, I would characterize his insults as the most equitable thing he does, no one is exempt, women, minorities, world leaders, war hero's, you get the picture. You might be a little more sensitive because he's hit your button on an off-limit target in your mind, but the dude will go into attack mode on anybody that comes after him. I first noticed this when he went after Fox News during the primaries. I mean, what Republican would diss on Fox? Trump.

Given the amount of explicitly racist stuff that Trump has both said and done, I don't buy your defense of "He's an asshole to everyone so it's OK that he's racist". 

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4982 on: November 21, 2018, 01:59:36 PM »
GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?


Trump goes beyond those items, how about his singling out only black NFL players?  His treatment of the Central Park five?  How he often calls black politicians low IQ or not qualified?  Stacey Abrams is far more qualified in terms of education and experience than Brian Kemp. 

And Trump did not get tens of millions of non-Republican votes.  They just convinced Democrats to not turn out in key states.  Those Democrats turned out big this year and flipped several Governor races and House races, even Senate races.  There would be more, but gerrymandering is a thing. Even though they lost Senate seats, they were facing the worst map in decades and the Republicans still only managed to pick up 2 seats.  Republicans face a much worse map in 2020 including in my state in NC where the Democratic total vote was 52% and Republican total vote only 48%.  The map looks red in that state, but again, gerrymandering is a thing.   


DaMa

I didn't vote for Trump because he was a Republican. I am independent through and through. I voted for him because Hillary would have been a disaster. She has been mired in scandal since her Arkansas days. I'm old enough to remember. Thank you for the welcome.


Right, and this administration is not mired in daily scandal never before seen in a modern administration.  The incompetence, selling foreign policy, etc, etc.

O.k., A lot of people are responding and some multiple times so I'm just going to address each as they come along. Apparently I am the only one here willing to give Trump a shot so understand I am vastly out-numbered and this may take some time.

Regarding the NFL, each player has the right to protest. They can kneel, turn their back, whatever. Fans also have the right to view this as an insult to our flag and country. Attendance to my knowledge has consistently been down since the protesting began. I don't follow the NFL so I kind of don't care about the issue other than these actions really piss off a lot people. I have had friends tell me they will never watch or attend another game again.

Trump is a populist that high-jacks these issues for continued support. Like every other politician out there. I would really like to encounter Clinton one day and ask to borrow some hot sauce. ;)

Also, he insults everyone regardless of race. In fact, I would characterize his insults as the most equitable thing he does, no one is exempt, women, minorities, world leaders, war hero's, you get the picture. You might be a little more sensitive because he's hit your button on an off-limit target in your mind, but the dude will go into attack mode on anybody that comes after him. I first noticed this when he went after Fox News during the primaries. I mean, what Republican would diss on Fox? Trump.

Finally, I could write a book on why Clinton would have been horrible for this country, much worse than Trump. Maybe another time.

1) The President of the United States does not appear to agree with your opinion that each player has the right to protest. Below are direct quotes taken from Trump's Twitter:
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The NFL has decided that it will not force players to stand for the playing of our National Anthem. Total disrespect for our great country!
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At least 24 players kneeling this weekend at NFL stadiums that are now having a very hard time filling up. The American public is fed up with the disrespect the NFL is paying to our Country, our Flag and our National Anthem. Weak and out of control!
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Marshawn Lynch of the NFL’s Oakland Raiders stands for the Mexican Anthem and sits down to boos for our National Anthem. Great disrespect! Next time NFL should suspend him for remainder of season. Attendance and ratings way down.
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.@NFL: Too much talk, not enough action. Stand for the National Anthem.


2) NFL viewership has been dropping since before this latest fiasco.

NBC’s Sunday Night Football
2017: 18.175 million
2016: 20.323 million
2015: 22.522 million

ESPN’s Monday Night Football
2017: 10.757 million
2016: 11.390 million
2015: 12.896 million

Thursday Night Football (NBC/CBS/NFL Network)
2017: 10.937 million
2016: 12.438 million
2015: 12.425 million

Source

3) Dictators seem to be largely exempt. Other than the "Little Rocket Man" episode anyway, which seems to be history now that they have "fell in love." 

Trump regarding Putin:
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"He's running his country and at least he's a leader, you know, unlike what we have in this country," Trump said. "I think our country does plenty of killing, also."
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Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?
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“It is always a great honor to be so nicely complimented by a man so highly respected within his own country and beyond,”

And Kim:
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"If you look at North Korea, this guy, I mean he's like a maniac, okay?" Trump said. "And you've got to give him credit. "How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden ... he goes in, he takes over, and he’s the boss," Trump said. "It's incredible. He wiped out the uncle, he wiped out this one, that one. I mean this guy doesn't play games. And we can't play games with him."

Oh, and that time he quoted Mussolini with a MAGA hashtag:
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"@ilduce2016: “It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep.” – @realDonaldTrump #MakeAmericaGreatAgain"

4) As you seem to be able to tell the future, I would appreciate it if you'd PM me the next set of winning Powerball numbers. Thanks!

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4983 on: November 21, 2018, 02:00:19 PM »
(9-11. Good point. That's why Saudi Arabia is on the list right? Because they came from there. Oh wait, they aren't? I guess it's not as important as you think.)

I'm not calling you anything, however those statements were mostly Lies. Which I will call out. So Obama put those countries on an increased requirement list, why does that make Trump's outright ban of everyone better? There is no proof whatsoever that the increased vetoing wasn't enough, and there are quite a few ISIS strong countries missing on the list, so you have a strange half-measure that hurts the normal population and does not achieve its effect. Also I somehow doubt Venezuela is planning terrorist attacks in the US.

No comment on the ''let's dialogue about if we should stop taking immigrants'' apart from the logical point that most increases in demographics in Western countries is due to immigration. Without immigration, the population will decrease, not a bad thing in itself, but not great for the economy (since you'd get an inverse pyramid of demographic ages).

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4984 on: November 21, 2018, 02:10:30 PM »

Could it be because certain extremist groups thrive under the umbrella of Islam? I don't think the Obama Administration just picked these countries names out of a hat. That the religion hasn't had a reformation and has been unable or unwilling to purge itself of people willing to indiscriminately murder innocent people? Were you alive during 9-11? I personally never want to see that occur on U.S soil again or anywhere for that matter. Skin color isn't the issue here.


To say that some extremists claim to follow Islam is very different from saying that Muslim immigrants are inherently more dangerous or prone to terrorist acts.
If one examines the fatal acts committed against random strangers on US soil in the last decade it becomes apparent that most of these individuals were not immigrants from Muslim countries. A good proportion of the most notorious ones are white (e.g. Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, James Alex Fields, STephen Paddock, Adam Lanza).  Many of those who claimed to Muslim were US citizens  (e.g. Omar Mateen, Syed Rizwan Farook, Nidal Malik Hasan) or were radicalized from within the US after living here for years (e.g. the Tsarnaev brothers).

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I think this country is in need of a national dialogue on immigration and how we want to shape this nation for the next hundred years or so. Our needs as a nation change and even though immigrants settled this nation doesn't mean our needs have remained the same. I don't have all of the answers but when you can't even open a dialogue without the name calling then this is not a good situation to be in.

I agree, and it should be based on both facts and on need.  On the fact-side, we have seen a sharp decrease in illegal immigration over the past decade, and a slowing of immigration overall.  On the need-side, our country needs more immigrants.  I say this based on the following: i) we have an emerging demographics problem stemming from the native-born population having fewer children and the biggest demographic (baby-boomers) all entering retirement and leaving the workforce and ii) immigrants are a financial net positive to our economy in a very short time frame (~3 years). We still have the recruiting tools (namely out diverse economy) to recruit many of hte best and brightest to live here, but recently we've gone the opposite direction, making legal immigration harder.  We've also had many decades in our history when immigration was far higher than it is now, which negates the argument that we somehow 'cannot accommodate' these people.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4985 on: November 21, 2018, 02:14:38 PM »
Bear with me everyone while I learn the best way to navigate this forum. I'm guessing the best way is to hit reply to each person that responds? Is that why there are these huge posts copied with a single sentence in response?

To tall texan, thank you for the welcome. I once spent a week together with a girl long ago from Texas that made me feel like a million bucks but sadly we parted ways. Said she was from the Woodlands.

GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Supporting Trump now and voting for him two years ago are not the same thing. Also, GuitarStv never said Trump's supporters were overtly racist but that they supported someone who says overtly racist things. I suspect most people have some level of latent or hidden racism whether they support Trump or not, the difficult thing for us to understand is how someone continues to support a president who says such things.

Quote
Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

Of course everyone realizes not all Mexicans are rapists, but Trump is suggesting that a disproportionate number of Mexican immigrants are, which is not true. The fact that vulnerable people paying to get help crossing the border illegally are taken advantage of is not surprising in the least and has nothing to do with the victims of those crimes, the illegal immigrants.

On top of that, it's really more of a psychological ploy than anything based in reality. Most voters spend zero time reading about the data or any sort of in depth analysis of what's going on so just using the words Mexican and rapist in the same sentence causes our brains to make that association in the future. This has been well documented and affects even those of us who know better.

Quote
As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

As someone else mentioned, there is no sound explanation as to why these countries were selected. We can speculate but whatever the reason, it satisfied his base who tend to react to the prevalent fear mongering towards Muslims. Data does not give any credence to the idea that this ban is protecting us. I also find it interesting that you refer to it as a "Muslim ban" as Trump and many of his supporters argue vehemently that it is not a Muslim ban, it's a ban on dangerous countries. Regardless of what the supposed reasoning is, it's really a ban on "others". Personally I don't care if this one is classified as racism or not, it's still demonizing some group that ignorant people fear.

Most of what Trump says can be defended in the way you're doing now because he intentionally leaves his comments vague. He adds things onto the end like "and some of them are good people". He prefaces with "People are saying" or " I've been told by very important people". His inarticulateness allows his defenders to say "he didn't mean it that way" no matter what he says.

I would recommend doing some reading about the signs of rising authoritarianism if you're interested in understanding the opinions you've seen in this thread. I don't want to provide my own articles as you may feel they're biased against Trump but he's basically a textbook example. I hope your attachment to your decision to vote for him doesn't blind you to the facts; which, by the way, I think is what's happening to many of his supporters. I disagree with Kris that his supporters are "idiots" but I do think that most voters on both sides are ignorant to what's going on in the world and that those who voted for Trump are reluctant to seek information that might disagree with they're current worldview. Conveniently, Trump is creating an alternate reality for them where they never have to admit they were wrong.

Yes to many of your points. He's a bullshitter that intentionally inflates numbers and facts to bring people to discussion of the issue at hand. I completely understand how this offends people. You are right on point when you mention that he leaves his comments intentionally vague. That is a double-edged sword as many will interpret what they want to to hear or fear, and it leads to incredible speculation. If you want to make an argument that is irresponsible behavior, then I'm listening.

I don't believe its a muslim ban, as most countries that are muslim majority were not listed. I would be for banning Canada, or any other country, if there was intelligence they were a terroristic threat.

I am sympathetic to people who fear an authoritative regime but I really feel these fears are wildly exaggerated. There are too many checks and balances and as a plus this has to be the most scrutinized presidency I can ever recall. But some of these fears are just silly, such as him not relinquishing the presidency or him being a white nationalist.

And I would invite you the same regarding opposing viewpoints. I read and follow a fair number of liberal sites but my preference is for the more conservative.


sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4986 on: November 21, 2018, 02:16:56 PM »
I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong.

There is a clear difference between saying that everyone who supports Trump is a racist and saying that all racists really love Trump.  In this case you appear to be hearing the former when someone says the latter.  So let's just clarify, you are not necessarily a racist because you support Trump, but Trump is clearly a racist and you have to be at least somewhat ambivalent about racism to support him, or at least have other concerns that you feel trump racism.

But in this instance, I think you are incorrect.  Tens of millions of people DO support Trump because he is racist, because those people are racist.  Those folks absolutely do exist.  You may not be one of them, maybe you're one of the people who supports Trump for other reasons and merely tolerates his racism or feels it is unimportant.  I would argue that even if you are merely tolerating racism by supporting a racist, that makes you pretty racist too.

Mussolini and Hitler and Stalin all won elections.  Not everyone who voted for them was necessarily an evil person, but they absolutely supported evil policies.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4987 on: November 21, 2018, 04:50:32 PM »
I don't believe its a muslim ban, as most countries that are muslim majority were not listed. I would be for banning Canada, or any other country, if there was intelligence they were a terroristic threat.

But we ARE a threat, didn't you hear?  He slapped a huge tariff on us for national security purposes.  The fact that we were in the middle of NAFTA negotiations was not relevant, I am sure.    /s

And there was no official Canadian consumer boycott of US goods (we just added our own tariffs), but boy did I ever hear of a lot of private ones.   I'm looking forward in 2019 to seeing 2018 trade and tourism figures compared to 2017.

Spoiler: show
And just to remind people, the rumour that the 9/11 terrorists entered through Canada was false - they entered from countries of origin directly to the US.  The idiocies people come up with.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4988 on: November 21, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »
Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

I have to assume you are trolling here dude. Trump was literally convicted in a court of law way back in 1973 of housing discrimination. That's when it all started. He has a long storied history of racism long before he was President. The last couple of years of racist remarks is just icing on the cake. 

Meanwhile Trump just thanked Saudi Arabia today for oil prices while standing behind them in the midst of ordering the grizzly torture, murder and subsequent cover up of a U.S. citizen. Fucking despicable! Sorry but I personally have no respect for anyone who thinks this is all ok and even continues to support it.

No dude, not trolling.

 It looks like he entered into a consent decree and admitted no wrongdoing, explaining "we don't rent to welfare cases, white or black". He did have to sign a future promise not to discriminate however. Don't know that is a slam dunk in my book but I would be open to more evidence.

I had never heard of this case until he ran for President and it surprised me to be honest because he was quite the celebrity through the 80's and 90's. I don't know how old you are but I remember people like Oprah having him on as a guest and Oprah gushing over him, even asking if he would run for the presidency one day. I bring this up because if he had the reputation of hating on black people and other minorities surely the word would have gotten around?

Can you think of any other cases since 1973 and before 2015 where his perceived racism manifested itself? I poked around the internet and found some dubious claims (in my opinion). He wanted the death penalty for 5 black teenagers convicted of rape. OK. Is that racism?
Is asking for proof of Obama's birth certificate racism? He declared Ted Cruz ineligible with the very same claim. How do we file that one since Cruz is white? Objectively I don't see a strong case for declaring him a racist. The problem as I see it is when others start assigning motive to other's actions without proof of what that person is actually thinking. Sometimes you just can't know and if the evidence isn't strong enough to prove otherwise than the default position should be giving the person the benefit of the doubt. I understand different people require different levels of proof, that's why we are having this discussion.

Appeasing Saudi Arabia is getting really old and I feel our government isn't being honest with our relationship with them. Not happy with Trump on this one, and it begs the question why we have kowtowed to this country especially after 9-11. I understand militarily and energy wise, but there is something else going on here that we as citizens aren't privy to.




nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4989 on: November 21, 2018, 06:26:49 PM »
Can you think of any other cases since 1973 and before 2015 where his perceived racism manifested itself? I poked around the internet and found some dubious claims (in my opinion). He wanted the death penalty for 5 black teenagers convicted of rape. OK. Is that racism?

Well the 'Central Park Five' seems like an obvious one - the actual crime occurred in 1989 but Trump's involvement and attacks on the five originally accused carried through the 2016 primary.

Then of course there was the whole 'birther' movement - accusing our first black president of not being born in the US - repeatedly and without evidence. Along with publicly questioning where he was born he suggested that his birth certificate might have his religion listed as 'Muslim'.


No dude, not trolling.

Alright, well let me ask you a question:  why have you joined this forum and community?  You have (at present) 7 posts and every single one is on this thread, in the 'off-topic' section. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4990 on: November 21, 2018, 07:02:46 PM »
GuitarStv

"You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?"

I was trying to point out that implying that tens of millions of people support Trump because they are racist is wrong. If that many people are that overtly racist then President Obama would never have been elected, twice. The math just isn't there, unless you would like to hypothesize Obama somehow created a huge shift in racist thought and action.

Yeah, as far as Trump regularly saying and doing racist things I assume you are referring to calling Mexicans rapists, wanting a Muslim ban, wanting a secure border? Oh and Charlottesville?

It's been well-documented that many women get raped while trying to cross our southern border illegally. Think about it, these women and men btw, are at the mercy of illegal smugglers and criminals. Most people realize that he wasn't accusing every Mexican of being a rapist but trying to highlight that a lot of criminals cross our border illegally. I am sure you are aware of the many crimes committed by illegal aliens?

Trump didn't say that Mexican women are being raped while they try to cross the border illegally.  He explicitly said that Mexican immigrants are drug dealers, criminals, and rapists.

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists"

You appear to be arguing that Trump is too stupid to coherently form his thoughts into words, and therefore made a mistake.  That would be a more compelling argument if just the other day he hadn't said:

"With us, it's a lottery system — pick them out — a lottery system. You can imagine what those countries put into the system. They're not putting their good ones."

He has doubled down on the racist comments he made.  Your excuses for Trump's racist comments don't make much sense coming from someone claiming not to be racist himself.


As far as a Muslim ban we must first distinguish that many races practice Islam so technically it isn't racism. It's probably going to be a person of color so I can see where people get confused. Again, it comes down to national security. If it is ascertained that certain groups of people from certain parts of the world are at a greater risk of harming our country than our president would be negligent in not heavily vetting or outright banning those groups. It's really that simple.

I know a lot of people wanted to make it an issue of a religious litmus test but it really comes down to potential terrorism.

"Since 9/11, no one has been killed in this country in a terrorist attack by anyone who emigrated from any of the seven countries," William C. Banks (director of the Institute for National Security and Counterterrorism).  So, no.  This is not at all an issue of protection from potential terrorism.  It has nothing to do with national security, or the recommendation to do this would have come from the agencies responsible for protecting the security of the US.

I don't agree with you that making laws to discriminate against people because of the religion they worship is a good thing. 

I get that you aren't racist . . . just wonder why you support policies that will overwhelmingly impact people who aren't white, and that all evidence points to being completely unnecessary for "protection from terrorists".


Is Trump racist?  I don't know what he thinks, and can only judge by his actions.

I mean, there are the fines that Trump paid before becoming president because he refused to rent rooms to black people and the court cases where the federal government found a pattern of preferential treatment to whites.

There's the time that Trump took out a full page add urging the death penalty for five black and Latino kids accused of raping a white woman (later turned out the kids didn't do it).

There's also this quote:  "I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that. I’ve said on one occasion, even about myself, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really believe they do have an actual advantage."  where Trump indicates his belief that life is hard for people who aren't black.  Trump continually demanded Obama's birth certificate.  Trump lied that Obama “issued a statement for Kwanzaa but failed to issue one for Christmas.”

Trump took out anti-native American ads with messages like "Mohawk Indian record of criminal activity is well documented" when competing with a native casino.  He has said that he believes native Americans in Connecticut are faking their ancestry "I think I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations."  Trump has regularly derided Elizabeth Warren for "lying" about her ancestry, calling her Pocahontes . . . even when asked to stop by native groups. (A later blood test turned out that Warren does have native ancestry.)

After becoming president, there's the fact that Trump said a Mexican judge was unfit to work because of his race.  He said that immigrants from Haiti "All have AIDS".  He said that Nigerians would "never go back to their huts" after seeing America.  Trump has often retweeted white nationalists.  Trump has retweeted multiple anti-Semitic images.  Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio who made racial profiling of Latinos a regular part of his operation as sheriff.  Steve Bannon was an important member of Trump's inner circle for a long time, and also the publisher of the white nationalist supporting Breitbart website.

This list can go on and on.  As mentioned, I don't know what Trump's inner thoughts are, I can only judge by his actions.  His actions show a long standing pattern of overt racism.

It's hyperbole, exaggeration, words for effect. He does this with everything. He embellishes to the point of absurdity with almost every issue he talks about. This time he happened to be talking about Mexicans. Underneath the shock value (he got your attention though, didn't he?) is a real problem that needs addressing. I started paying attention to this issue under Reagan and every president, and many candidates too, have addressed illegal immigration in their platforms. This president if given the chance will actually do something about it. Your repeated attempts at de-legitimizing a valid concern because you believe Trump is a racist doesn't make the problem go away.

Many of your examples given for overt racism don't hold water with me and I really don't feel like itemizing each one but let's address one of the easy ones. Calling Elizabeth Warren Pocohantas is not racist, it's actually quite funny because he is calling out a very liberal Democrat on the hypocrisy of appropriating another's culture for gain, something she should own up to. Native Americans should be angry with her, not Trump.

Regarding terrorism, I don't support laws that discriminate against religions, I support laws that might prevent someone from entering my country and blowing up someone I love. We can argue threat levels. If your religion supports terrorism, the onus is on you to fix it, and in the meantime I'll be taking preventative measures. Please note the distinction.

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4991 on: November 21, 2018, 07:12:46 PM »
Verdailles: what good things do you think he will do in the future?

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4992 on: November 21, 2018, 07:29:40 PM »
Can you think of any other cases since 1973 and before 2015 where his perceived racism manifested itself? I poked around the internet and found some dubious claims (in my opinion). He wanted the death penalty for 5 black teenagers convicted of rape. OK. Is that racism?

Well the 'Central Park Five' seems like an obvious one - the actual crime occurred in 1989 but Trump's involvement and attacks on the five originally accused carried through the 2016 primary.

Then of course there was the whole 'birther' movement - accusing our first black president of not being born in the US - repeatedly and without evidence. Along with publicly questioning where he was born he suggested that his birth certificate might have his religion listed as 'Muslim'.


No dude, not trolling.

Alright, well let me ask you a question:  why have you joined this forum and community?  You have (at present) 7 posts and every single one is on this thread, in the 'off-topic' section.

I'm going to jump ahead to you and then I'm signing off for today.

I've already addressed the racism stuff. If 5 guys raped my daughter I would want them all dead (wouldn't matter what race they were) so I have no problem with his statement at the time, which was when everybody still believed the court ruling that these guys actually committed the crime. I realize the court got it wrong.

My comments are limited to Off-topic because I am new, and this thread interests me with it's incredible echo chamber. I have watched you guys dismantle so many people that dared to offer an alternative view that it is quite fascinating to be honest. Have you ever considered why there is a core group of you that respond to everything with very few new fresh voices?

Also a couple of you literally piss me off with your arrogance and dismissiveness towards others. So there's that. ;) Don't worry, I don't stay angry.

As far as street cred regarding the FIRE movement, I retired in my forties and lead a very comfortable life. I may post in other topics at some point but I've kind of out-grown a lot of the topics as again, I'm retired and not struggling. So, not a troll, promise, and we'll see where this goes.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4993 on: November 21, 2018, 07:37:58 PM »
You keep saying “this immigration problem” but not defining what you mean by that, nor do you address any of the data that I and others have referenced upthread. 
Since you are talking about other presidents, allow me to reiterate - starting under George W Bush and continuing under Obama the total number of people trying to enter this country illegally has gone down, and our illegal immigrant population within the country has also gone down. 
Contrary to his rhetoric, since Trump has taken office the number of people apprehended for crossing illegally has been at 30 year lows.

You’ve also made the point that his words are hyperbole, not to be taken serious, and all done for effect.  Sorry, but if you say racist things repeatedly and on a national stage, that makes you racist.  When you don’t recant or apologize (but rather continue unabated) that makes the rhetoric deliberate and not some misunderstanding.

It is not up to the speaker to decide whether a statement is racist - its whether the particular group being labeled finds the term offensive. If you do indeed think that Trump calling Warren ‘Pocohantis’ is "actually quite funny" that is showing a great deal of racial insensitivity on your part.

Your statement suggesting Islam ‘supports terrorism’ is factually wrong.  Extremists will twist any doctrine to suit their needs.  We’ve had plenty of mass murders and native-born terrorists that were Christian, some of whom claimed that they were doing God’s work by killing their targets.  That doesn’t mean Christianity supports terror.  See the distinction? You’ve also failed to address how banning people from Muslim countries make us safer, when the overwhelming majority of domestic terrorism and mass murders are committed by people who are native born or who have lived here for years and were radicalized from within the US.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 05:52:34 AM by nereo »

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4994 on: November 22, 2018, 05:43:52 AM »
Your statement suggesting Islam ‘supports terrorism’ is factually wrong.  Extremists will twist any doctrine to suit their needs.  We’ve had plenty of mass murders and native-born terrorists that were Christian, some of whom claimed that they were doing God’s work by killing their targets.  That doesn’t mean Christianity supports terror.  See the distinction? You’ve also failed to address how banning people from Muslim countries make us safer, when the overwhelming majority of domestic terrorism and mass murders are committed by people who are native born or who have lived here for years and were radicalized from within the US.

When I was young I went to bed every night thanking God my Irish ancestors had emigrated to Canada.  Because if they hadn't, I would have been living with the IRA.  Which, if you will recall, was Christian against Christian.  And class against class.  Fortunately Canada did not ban Irish immigration just because some people were waging what was basically a civil war, and had been for a long time (the fight for Irish autonomy goes back a long ways).

Perspective, people.  And clarity.   Make sure you have your Ven diagrams clear.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4995 on: November 22, 2018, 07:10:20 AM »
Many of your examples given for overt racism don't hold water with me and I really don't feel like itemizing each one but let's address one of the easy ones. Calling Elizabeth Warren Pocohantas is not racist, it's actually quite funny because he is calling out a very liberal Democrat on the hypocrisy of appropriating another's culture for gain, something she should own up to. Native Americans should be angry with her, not Trump.

If you don't believe that calling a woman with proven Native American ancestry "Pocahontas" is racist, (and in fact think it's funny) then we don't really need to keep discussing this.  Contrary to your claims, you are racist.  Your support of Trump would therefore fit the stereotype you're saying is unfair.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4996 on: November 22, 2018, 07:41:08 AM »
It looks like he entered into a consent decree and admitted no wrongdoing, explaining "we don't rent to welfare cases, white or black". He did have to sign a future promise not to discriminate however. Don't know that is a slam dunk in my book but I would be open to more evidence.
In the "courts book" he was guilty of discrimination thus why he signed the paper. He tried to counter sue for hundreds of thousands and the suit was laughed out of court. Of course he settled, that's Trumps MO. He isn't privy, nor is the government, to consider years of litigation. I'll take the "courts book" over "my book."

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I don't know how old you are but I remember people like Oprah having him on as a guest and Oprah gushing over him, even asking if he would run for the presidency one day. I bring this up because if he had the reputation of hating on black people and other minorities surely the word would have gotten around?
Ahh the old "I have black friends so I can't be racist" argument. Or in this case, "I went on a TV show hosted by a black woman to promote myself and my brand, so I can't be racist." Good grief!

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He wanted the death penalty for 5 black teenagers convicted of rape. OK. Is that racism?
Considering he still pushed for punishment 15 years after they were exonerated, absolutely!

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Is asking for proof of Obama's birth certificate racism?
It was presented and he still claimed Obama was not born here. So yes, absolutely!

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He declared Ted Cruz ineligible with the very same claim.
Umm no! He declared Cruz's mother of Canadian citizenship and Cruz himself had dual citizenship (he renounced his Canadian citizenship in 2014). Trump repeatedly said Cruz was eligible in multiple interviews but that he might want to look into the citizenship thing. Man you really reached for that one.
   
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Objectively I don't see a strong case for declaring him a racist.
"Subjectively" would be the word you are looking for. Your support for Trump and willful ignorance of basic facts coupled with your declaration of being a Republican while making unsubstantiated claims about a Clinton Presidency in no way scream "objectivity."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 07:44:40 AM by MasterStache »

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4997 on: November 22, 2018, 08:33:44 AM »
The White House refuses to guarantee that no video will emerge of Trump repeatedly using the N-word. That is functionally identical to confirming that Trump has used it in the presence of cameras. How the fuck is he not a racist?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4998 on: November 22, 2018, 08:35:24 AM »
The White House refuses to guarantee that no video will emerge of Trump repeatedly using the N-word. That is functionally identical to confirming that Trump has used it in the presence of cameras. How the fuck is he not a racist?

(Insert BS argument #___ for why a white person tossing around the N word isn’t racist here.)

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4999 on: November 22, 2018, 08:43:33 AM »
Alright folks

This is my tenth post and I have been nothing but polite in trying to explain why someone may differ from some of your interpretation of current events. For that effort I have been peppered with questions demanding my intent, called a troll and a racist.

Do you guys want to hear alternative views or go back to regular programming of Trump is bad? Believe it or not, I have legitimate concerns over the man and presidency, but if we are going to fling insults then there is no point in continuing. Keep in mind when one deploys the turd flinging right off of the bat, it shuts down all discourse and furthers the division between groups.

Do you want to learn why myself and millions of others believe what we do or return safely back to your comfortable echo chamber?

Happy Thanksgiving btw. I'll check back in later tonight, guests will be arriving soon.