Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 455806 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4900 on: November 18, 2018, 01:39:18 PM »
By the way, if you too want to ignore Trump for a while, I highly recommend Paul Taylor's short videos about France on YouTube.  Here's a good starter (note - language is not work friendly):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz0XgAKR9Oc

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4901 on: November 18, 2018, 09:29:37 PM »
Trump wants the forests raked to prevent forest fires. Maybe that is his answer to creating employment. Since there are millions of acres of forest, just think how many jobs that would create! Lots of Federal Jobs too! BWAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH, hilarious!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-says-raking-would-help-prevent-forest-fires_us_5bf0d578e4b0f32bd58a1aba

Finnish President doesn't recall telling Trump Finns do a lot of 'raking' to prevent forest fires. It is pathetic that he is just making $*** up as he goes. What a disgrace...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/18/politics/finnish-president-trump-raking-forest-fires/index.html

Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4902 on: November 18, 2018, 10:22:24 PM »
While I hate to say it, he's not 100% wrong about the raking. Although I think he stumbled on it by accident than any conscious thought. One contributing factor in the fires (heat and drought being the other major factors) is the fact that for 100 years, we've just been too good at fire suppression. So now all the flammable undergrowth that would have been consumed by semi-regular, comparably small fires has just piled up and dried out, becoming tinder. Resulting in huge infernos that are damn near uncontrollable. Clearing out that undergrowth ("raking") would be a huge step toward making those fires more controllable--but at this point how do you even do that? Controlled burns are pretty much out of the question at this point without more rain, and the manpower and money required to do it manually are pretty monumental.

https://news.berkeley.edu/2016/10/24/wildfire-management-vs-suppression-benefits-forest-and-watershed/

https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.21/wildfire-what-fire-researchers-learned-from-northern-california-blazes

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4903 on: November 18, 2018, 10:29:15 PM »
Yes, it is pathetic what comes out of his mouth and he believes everything he says! Millions and millions of acres should be raked, yep, and did he ever even think of how many people that it would take if it was even doable? What a JOKE!

How does he go to a burned out hell hole where people have lost their homes, businesses, everything and all of a sudden do the blame game by saying forest mismanagement is the reason why this happened. Where is that fatherly figure and President of the United States of America, that holds the distraught people to his chest to tell them everything will be okay?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 05:28:42 AM by Roadrunner53 »

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4904 on: November 18, 2018, 10:53:04 PM »
Where is that fatherly figure and President off the United States of America, that holds the distraught people to his chest to tell them everything will be okay?

He's more like your creepy Uncle who touches you inappropriately.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4905 on: November 19, 2018, 05:26:31 AM »

How does he go to a burned out hell hole where people have lost their homes, businesses, everything and all of a sudden do the blame game by saying forest mismanagement is the reason why this happened. Where is that fatherly figure and President off the United States of America, that holds the distraught people to his chest to tell them everything will be okay?

During national disasters, every president in recent memory (Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan...) has made an effort to comfort and unify the nation.  Not this guy.  When you spend your time framing the opposition as the enemy and the press as dishonest & unfair one cannot make that jump.

bipartisan compromise and unity is the biggest threat to DJT's power.  He never had, nor is he likely to ever get a majority of Americans to support him, so he must keep the various factions who do not support him from unifying. That explains as much of what he does as anything else I can think of. That's why he seeks to suppress minority voter turnout, why he paints centrist democrats as far-left socialist liberals to center-right republicans, why he suddenly shows support for Pelosi (whom conservatives and sexist men distain), why the reporter he temporarily banished was from CNN (a network hated by the millions of listeners of Rush & Fox), why he showers the military with larger budgets and a greater role, even when fiscal conservatives are getting antsy about the deficit

Divide, divide, divide and you can hold onto power with a minority of the country behind you. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4906 on: November 19, 2018, 06:18:30 AM »
Where is that fatherly figure and President off the United States of America, that holds the distraught people to his chest to tell them everything will be okay?

He's more like your creepy Uncle who touches you inappropriately.
LOL (and ugh).

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4907 on: November 19, 2018, 08:01:02 AM »
Sooner or later his lying has got to catch up with him! I can't wait till that day comes.
I've got a person like this in my life (pathological liar).  People have been saying the above for a long time (over 20 years) and still has not caught up with him though he is in the court system more than the average bear.  I really do not want to wait that long with Trump.

sui generis

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4908 on: November 19, 2018, 09:06:30 AM »
While I hate to say it, he's not 100% wrong about the raking. Although I think he stumbled on it by accident than any conscious thought. One contributing factor in the fires (heat and drought being the other major factors) is the fact that for 100 years, we've just been too good at fire suppression. So now all the flammable undergrowth that would have been consumed by semi-regular, comparably small fires has just piled up and dried out, becoming tinder. Resulting in huge infernos that are damn near uncontrollable. Clearing out that undergrowth ("raking") would be a huge step toward making those fires more controllable--but at this point how do you even do that? Controlled burns are pretty much out of the question at this point without more rain, and the manpower and money required to do it manually are pretty monumental.

https://news.berkeley.edu/2016/10/24/wildfire-management-vs-suppression-benefits-forest-and-watershed/

https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.21/wildfire-what-fire-researchers-learned-from-northern-california-blazes

Except this is pretty inapplicable to these fires.  These fires predominantly were not in or near forests. Even the Camp Fire is in an area composed largely of post-fire shrubland (having burned previously about 10 years ago, apparently).  I've also read that forests near these communities are subject to thinning and other more recent practices to prevent fuel build up that people falsely claim is not done.  But as usual, facts these days - meh!  So people just create a narrative where everyone across the country is picturing 10 foot tall piles of leaves sitting around us and we're clueless.  I'm also not saying these tactics don't need to be expanded and paid more attention to. Maybe they do in particular areas. But as far as these fires, it's just a narrative that asshole creates to further punish victims he doesn't like to start with.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4909 on: November 19, 2018, 09:17:06 AM »
Where is that fatherly figure and President off the United States of America, that holds the distraught people to his chest to tell them everything will be okay?

He's more like your creepy Uncle who touches you inappropriately.
LOL (and ugh).

Uncle Sam . . . wants you.  :P

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4910 on: November 19, 2018, 09:40:34 AM »
Sooner or later his lying has got to catch up with him! I can't wait till that day comes.
I've got a person like this in my life (pathological liar).  People have been saying the above for a long time (over 20 years) and still has not caught up with him though he is in the court system more than the average bear.  I really do not want to wait that long with Trump.

Trump has thrived from a culture in which factuality is not the purpose of speech. This culture celebrates his confidence and strength, which he consistently signals through his (inaccurate) speech. We are going to have this culture for quite a while, I'm afraid.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4911 on: November 19, 2018, 09:56:13 AM »
Sooner or later his lying has got to catch up with him! I can't wait till that day comes.
I've got a person like this in my life (pathological liar).  People have been saying the above for a long time (over 20 years) and still has not caught up with him though he is in the court system more than the average bear.  I really do not want to wait that long with Trump.

Trump has thrived from a culture in which factuality is not the purpose of speech. This culture celebrates his confidence and strength, which he consistently signals through his (inaccurate) speech. We are going to have this culture for quite a while, I'm afraid.

I think you may be right. The problem is, Trump is a great candidate for people who don't care to do their research, and who feel as though those libs lord it over them with their facts and their smugness and everything. Trump makes intellectually incurious people feel great about themselves, because he validates them. While he's in office, they can feel as though any opinion they heard on Fox or Alex Jones -- or hell, just anything they made up off the top of their head -- is just as good as your actually researched study or article. Better, even, because there's no reason to fact check it. Any contrary piece of evidence can be blown off with a simple, "that's just your opinion," whether it's an opinion or not. Trump gives them the ultimate trump card. They don't even have to think or work at it. And they know it drives those of us who actually care about facts and research nuts. Which makes it extra tasty.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4912 on: November 19, 2018, 11:52:58 AM »
Sooner or later his lying has got to catch up with him! I can't wait till that day comes.
I've got a person like this in my life (pathological liar).  People have been saying the above for a long time (over 20 years) and still has not caught up with him though he is in the court system more than the average bear.  I really do not want to wait that long with Trump.

Trump has thrived from a culture in which factuality is not the purpose of speech. This culture celebrates his confidence and strength, which he consistently signals through his (inaccurate) speech. We are going to have this culture for quite a while, I'm afraid.

I think you may be right. The problem is, Trump is a great candidate for people who don't care to do their research, and who feel as though those libs lord it over them with their facts and their smugness and everything. Trump makes intellectually incurious people feel great about themselves, because he validates them. While he's in office, they can feel as though any opinion they heard on Fox or Alex Jones -- or hell, just anything they made up off the top of their head -- is just as good as your actually researched study or article. Better, even, because there's no reason to fact check it. Any contrary piece of evidence can be blown off with a simple, "that's just your opinion," whether it's an opinion or not. Trump gives them the ultimate trump card. They don't even have to think or work at it. And they know it drives those of us who actually care about facts and research nuts. Which makes it extra tasty.

no he says it's "fake news"

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4913 on: November 19, 2018, 02:50:55 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4914 on: November 19, 2018, 03:05:59 PM »
Yes, expensive political stunt and why doesn't anyone do anything about it. This is despicable! Our government dollars to fund his personal agenda.

We keep talking about checks and balances, where are they for supplying troops for this BS caravan stunt?

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4915 on: November 19, 2018, 03:56:29 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4916 on: November 19, 2018, 04:13:26 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

Not sure if sarcastic or not.

If not, sorry, but not sorry. Willful ignorance should be called out.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4917 on: November 19, 2018, 04:35:26 PM »
Keep fighting amongst yourselves, Americans! Uncle Vladimir is so pleased!

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4918 on: November 19, 2018, 04:46:38 PM »
Keep fighting amongst yourselves, Americans! Uncle Vladimir is so pleased!

Vlad knows supporting Trump is idiocy, as well. Which is why he worked so hard for it.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4919 on: November 19, 2018, 05:09:13 PM »
Trump is not important. If America were more racist, supporting Obama would have worked as well. The important thing is to keep your enemies fighting amongst themselves. Exactly what they're fighting over doesn't matter.

Putin's worst nightmare would be that people actually try to work with Trump and accomplish something, that Dems and Reps work together rather than just reflexively opposing each-other, attaching riders to bills and fillibustering and all that nonsense.

Of course, if you are in the middle of a barfight, it's hard to notice the guy on the sidelines egging you on. Adrenaline gives you tunnel vision. Step back, look around. Alternately, keep fighting and beating each-other up. It's what Uncle Vlad wants.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4920 on: November 19, 2018, 05:11:58 PM »
Which of Trump's policy issues do you believe that people should come together on?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4921 on: November 19, 2018, 05:25:44 PM »
Trump is not important. If America were more racist, supporting Obama would have worked as well. The important thing is to keep your enemies fighting amongst themselves. Exactly what they're fighting over doesn't matter.

Putin's worst nightmare would be that people actually try to work with Trump and accomplish something, that Dems and Reps work together rather than just reflexively opposing each-other, attaching riders to bills and fillibustering and all that nonsense.

Of course, if you are in the middle of a barfight, it's hard to notice the guy on the sidelines egging you on. Adrenaline gives you tunnel vision. Step back, look around. Alternately, keep fighting and beating each-other up. It's what Uncle Vlad wants.

Look, I don't disagree with you on all of this.

However, I would argue that not fighting back against a racist, tyrannical demagogue and letting him do whatever he wants would be even worse. I think there might be some historical precedent for that.

Glenstache

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Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4924 on: November 19, 2018, 08:46:01 PM »

Which of Trump's policy issues do you believe that people should come together on?

That's up to you, whatever you think is important. It's your country, and its problems are legion. But the advantage of having someone so clueless signing off on all legislation is that, given the right approach, you should be able to get him to sign anything.

A hint: calling him a racist tyrannical demagogue is not the right approach. In all of human history, hurling abuse at someone has not once managed to convince them to do or say what you want. That the abuse is more than justified is irrelevant; in fact, abuse with truth to it will be more likely to make the person back up and oppose you just out of spite.

You can keep on waiting for the "right" person to be elected President, and the right House, and the right Senate, and the right State Governors and legislatures... or you can work with the ones you've got. 

Or you can continue in pointless internal conflict. This is probably inevitable at this stage in your history.

http://peterturchin.com/age-of-discord/

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4925 on: November 20, 2018, 04:02:07 AM »
Meanwhile in #lockherup news:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ivanka-trump-used-a-personal-email-account-to-send-hundreds-of-emails-about-government-business-last-year/2018/11/19/6515d1e0-e7a1-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c420552d737c

It appears that the silence on this will be deafening.

Lock her up... lock her up...

According to Ivanka herself she didn't know that she shouldn't be using her personal email for government business until someone official told her so.

So she's an even worse liar than her father, which I didn't think was possible in anyone over the age of 4.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4926 on: November 20, 2018, 05:24:10 AM »

According to Ivanka herself she didn't know that she shouldn't be using her personal email for government business until someone official told her so.


Wow.  Her excuse is complete ignorance of both the rules and her father's 2016 compaign

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4927 on: November 20, 2018, 05:24:28 AM »

Which of Trump's policy issues do you believe that people should come together on?

That's up to you, whatever you think is important.
Personally I have been against just about every policy he has passed and/or proposed. Which of course contradicts the assertion that we should work together. 

Quote
A hint: calling him a racist tyrannical demagogue is not the right approach. In all of human history, hurling abuse at someone has not once managed to convince them to do or say what you want.

Hmm I would disagree considering Trump was elected President. Also when the Potus actively tries to pass legislation targeting discrimination against Muslims and brown people it's absolutely appropriate to call this out for what it is. How else would you describe it? I mean what sort of "nice guy" approach would you take to separating children at the border and locking them up? I guess Dems should work together on imprisoning immigrant children?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4928 on: November 20, 2018, 07:46:59 AM »

Which of Trump's policy issues do you believe that people should come together on?

That's up to you, whatever you think is important. It's your country, and its problems are legion. But the advantage of having someone so clueless signing off on all legislation is that, given the right approach, you should be able to get him to sign anything.

I asked the question specifically because I'm having a hard time thinking of policies proposed by the Trump administration that are worthy of support.  I'm reasonably sure that no attempt has been made to compromise or come to an agreement on anything.  What you're saying sounds nice in theory, but I need a few practical examples to figure out if your idea makes any sense at all in real life . . . and it doesn't seem like you could come up with any either.

But let's try your approach here.  I'll just take a few examples of things Trump has said and throw some support behind them.

- Trump says that some Nazis are good people.  We should therefore agree that being a Nazi isn't that bad.  Maybe we should encourage Nazis to hold more rallies?  Hold a white power holiday on Hitler's birthday?  What level of Nazi support do you propose here?
- Trump says that Mexicans are rapists.  We should therefore agree with Trump and increase policing of only Mexicans in the US?
- Trump says that black NFL players who take a knee during the national anthem are disrespecting the flag.  We should work with Trump to infringe their right to free speech?  We should follow Trump's advice and fire them all from their jobs?
- Trump says that the Mexican judge overseeing the Trump university case cannot be impartial because of his race.  Therefore we should work with Trump to prevent any person of Mexican heritage from presiding over a case involving a person who has made racist comments about Mexicans?
- Trump says that Obama is a secret Kenyan Muslim, who was not born in the US.  We should therefore have the FBI investigate this claim?
- Trump said that he wanted to ban Muslims from entering the US.  We should therefore work together with Trump to implement a religious based ban for immigrants?
- Trump has said that the media is the enemy of the state and the people.  We should therefore implement legislation with Trump to allow the government to control what is reported by news stations?
- Trump has said that he supports the execution of families of suspected terrorists.  We should therefore support Trump in extrajudicial killings of people suspected of being related to people suspected of being terrorists?

This is what you're looking for?  These are all important issues.  I just don't support the direction that Trump does on any of them.  You're saying that I need to compromise though.


A hint: calling him a racist tyrannical demagogue is not the right approach. In all of human history, hurling abuse at someone has not once managed to convince them to do or say what you want. That the abuse is more than justified is irrelevant; in fact, abuse with truth to it will be more likely to make the person back up and oppose you just out of spite.

You can keep on waiting for the "right" person to be elected President, and the right House, and the right Senate, and the right State Governors and legislatures... or you can work with the ones you've got. 

Or you can continue in pointless internal conflict. This is probably inevitable at this stage in your history.

http://peterturchin.com/age-of-discord/[/size]

Your initial assumption seems to be that Trump is called these things because people don't like him.  I disagree.  For example, he's called racist because of the overtly racist policies he supports and actions he takes.  Pointing out when someone is racist is not hurling abuse, it's just pointing out the truth.  If Trump stopped doing racist things, I suspect that the accusations of racism would dwindle.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4929 on: November 20, 2018, 08:41:14 AM »
Donald is having a bad week. Ha, ha!

Judge won't allow Donald to refuse assylum to caravan people.

Ivanka using personal email for official government business. My, my, will Donald say LOCK HER UP?

Jim Acosta got his press credentials back, due to a judge.

Troops sent to boarder for 'Operation Faithful Patriot', to protect against caravan people, are going home. All the hype for the midterms is over.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4930 on: November 20, 2018, 09:06:02 AM »
Jim Acosta got his press credentials back, due to a judge.

A Trump appointed judge.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4931 on: November 20, 2018, 09:39:00 AM »
Jim Acosta got his press credentials back, due to a judge.

A Trump appointed judge.

It amazes me how often politicians are surprised that a judge they appointed doesn't rule in their favor.  It shouldn't.
Judges are human, and they want to be respected by their piers (other judges) while also maintaining job security and potential career advancement. That means their next appointment will almost certainly come from a future executive, who may or may not be of the same party, and be approved by a future legislature which (again) may or may not be the same party.
Making a bunch of rulings which get struck down by higher level courts is the most surefire way of torpedoing ones own advancement.  So the majority of judges try to make narrow rulings which will hold up under appeal. Plus, personal biases aside, most judges are good people who respect the rule of law and want fairness and equality in our system. That's how you become a judge in the first place. Very few 'bottom-feeding' personal-injury lawyers get nominated to be judges.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4932 on: November 20, 2018, 09:45:46 AM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

This is actually a complicated question with two parts:

1. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things morally wrong?
2. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things politically damaging?

I think the answer lies in how the KKK was vanquished.  Social shame and contempt were powerful tools, and it stopped the spread of a noxious ideology. The targets of the contempt were racists, but the audience for the contempt was people on the edges who could have gone either way who didn't want the stench of the social shame to get on them.  I think this fulfills 1 and 2, because it was effective and it stopped something far worse than whatever the moral category for "making fun of racists" is.  Do you think there was a lot of hand-wringing in the 1950s about how mean people were to nice families who just didn't want their kids to swim in a pool with kids of a different color? 

For Trump supporters, the various elements of their ideology fall along a spectrum.  Some of them believe things that are just wacky (anti-vaccine, Seth Rich conspiracies, pizzagate, Qanon) just like Trump himself spouting off about Ted Cruz's dad killing Kennedy.  Some of them are racists.  And some of them just really want anti-abortion judges.  I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that people who believe conspiracy theories are idiots. Concern trolling that this makes people feel bad isn't going to bring people over to our side.  The kind of people who believe this stuff aren't reachable. 

Specifically addressing 2 and not 1, if Trump supporters were so offended by people being mean, they wouldn't support him in the first place.  Trump calls people idiots all the time, and it hasn't cooled the ardor of the Trump base.  They love it.  They love an authoritarian.  They love a bully. 




caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4933 on: November 20, 2018, 10:04:56 AM »
Jim Acosta got his press credentials back, due to a judge.

A Trump appointed judge.

It amazes me how often politicians are surprised that a judge they appointed doesn't rule in their favor.  It shouldn't.
Judges are human, and they want to be respected by their piers (other judges) while also maintaining job security and potential career advancement. That means their next appointment will almost certainly come from a future executive, who may or may not be of the same party, and be approved by a future legislature which (again) may or may not be the same party.
Making a bunch of rulings which get struck down by higher level courts is the most surefire way of torpedoing ones own advancement.  So the majority of judges try to make narrow rulings which will hold up under appeal. Plus, personal biases aside, most judges are good people who respect the rule of law and want fairness and equality in our system. That's how you become a judge in the first place. Very few 'bottom-feeding' personal-injury lawyers get nominated to be judges.
Most judges rule this way because that is how a common law system versus a civil law system works.  Prior case law becomes part of the actual law and therefore straying too far from it would cause them to fail under appeal.  Going against precedent just because the guy who appointed you is a nut and believes something outside legal precedent should be the case just shows how uniformed Trump is on how our legal system operates.  So I'd argue they rule the way they do because it would be hard to advance when you clearly rule against set case law and then wonder why it failed under appeal.  You clearly do not understand your job in that case and would not be advanced.

Versatile

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4934 on: November 20, 2018, 12:26:21 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

This is actually a complicated question with two parts:

1. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things morally wrong?
2. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things politically damaging?

I think the answer lies in how the KKK was vanquished.  Social shame and contempt were powerful tools, and it stopped the spread of a noxious ideology. The targets of the contempt were racists, but the audience for the contempt was people on the edges who could have gone either way who didn't want the stench of the social shame to get on them.  I think this fulfills 1 and 2, because it was effective and it stopped something far worse than whatever the moral category for "making fun of racists" is.  Do you think there was a lot of hand-wringing in the 1950s about how mean people were to nice families who just didn't want their kids to swim in a pool with kids of a different color? 

For Trump supporters, the various elements of their ideology fall along a spectrum.  Some of them believe things that are just wacky (anti-vaccine, Seth Rich conspiracies, pizzagate, Qanon) just like Trump himself spouting off about Ted Cruz's dad killing Kennedy.  Some of them are racists.  And some of them just really want anti-abortion judges.  I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that people who believe conspiracy theories are idiots. Concern trolling that this makes people feel bad isn't going to bring people over to our side.  The kind of people who believe this stuff aren't reachable. 

Specifically addressing 2 and not 1, if Trump supporters were so offended by people being mean, they wouldn't support him in the first place.  Trump calls people idiots all the time, and it hasn't cooled the ardor of the Trump base.  They love it.  They love an authoritarian.  They love a bully. 





Where are the mods here? I just signed up for this and I agreed not to personally insult anyone or abuse my privileges. I assume you guys did too and if this were an isolated event I wouldn't be responding. This behavior is awful and to justify it because you believe you are taking down the KKK is laughable at best.

I voted for Trump for reasons other than the simplistic notion that I am under-educated, racist, you guys know the buzz words. When you make comments like the above you are painting a broad brush over tens of millions of your fellow countrymen. That's a lot of people that you are taking credit for in knowing their inner thoughts. Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that?

I like reading people's perspectives on why they believe what they believe, even if I disagree with them. That's why I visit the Off-Topics to get a perspective of why people say and do the things they do, but I'm not getting the impression most you are even open to alternative views or reasoning. So is this thread for hating on Trump and his voters or for discussion of topics on hand involving Trump?






talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4935 on: November 20, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Versatile.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4936 on: November 20, 2018, 12:33:13 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

This is actually a complicated question with two parts:

1. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things morally wrong?
2. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things politically damaging?

I think the answer lies in how the KKK was vanquished.  Social shame and contempt were powerful tools, and it stopped the spread of a noxious ideology. The targets of the contempt were racists, but the audience for the contempt was people on the edges who could have gone either way who didn't want the stench of the social shame to get on them.  I think this fulfills 1 and 2, because it was effective and it stopped something far worse than whatever the moral category for "making fun of racists" is.  Do you think there was a lot of hand-wringing in the 1950s about how mean people were to nice families who just didn't want their kids to swim in a pool with kids of a different color? 

For Trump supporters, the various elements of their ideology fall along a spectrum.  Some of them believe things that are just wacky (anti-vaccine, Seth Rich conspiracies, pizzagate, Qanon) just like Trump himself spouting off about Ted Cruz's dad killing Kennedy.  Some of them are racists.  And some of them just really want anti-abortion judges.  I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that people who believe conspiracy theories are idiots. Concern trolling that this makes people feel bad isn't going to bring people over to our side.  The kind of people who believe this stuff aren't reachable. 

Specifically addressing 2 and not 1, if Trump supporters were so offended by people being mean, they wouldn't support him in the first place.  Trump calls people idiots all the time, and it hasn't cooled the ardor of the Trump base.  They love it.  They love an authoritarian.  They love a bully. 





Where are the mods here? I just signed up for this and I agreed not to personally insult anyone or abuse my privileges. I assume you guys did too and if this were an isolated event I wouldn't be responding. This behavior is awful and to justify it because you believe you are taking down the KKK is laughable at best.

I voted for Trump for reasons other than the simplistic notion that I am under-educated, racist, you guys know the buzz words. When you make comments like the above you are painting a broad brush over tens of millions of your fellow countrymen. That's a lot of people that you are taking credit for in knowing their inner thoughts. Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that?

I like reading people's perspectives on why they believe what they believe, even if I disagree with them. That's why I visit the Off-Topics to get a perspective of why people say and do the things they do, but I'm not getting the impression most you are even open to alternative views or reasoning. So is this thread for hating on Trump and his voters or for discussion of topics on hand involving Trump?

You've indicated that you support a person who has regularly said and done overtly racist things.  You've also indicated that you yourself are not racist, and are well informed (therefore are aware of the racism).

How do you square these two things away?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4937 on: November 20, 2018, 12:39:21 PM »

Where are the mods here? I just signed up for this and I agreed not to personally insult anyone or abuse my privileges. I assume you guys did too and if this were an isolated event I wouldn't be responding. This behavior is awful and to justify it because you believe you are taking down the KKK is laughable at best.

I voted for Trump for reasons other than the simplistic notion that I am under-educated, racist, you guys know the buzz words. When you make comments like the above you are painting a broad brush over tens of millions of your fellow countrymen. That's a lot of people that you are taking credit for in knowing their inner thoughts. Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that?

I like reading people's perspectives on why they believe what they believe, even if I disagree with them. That's why I visit the Off-Topics to get a perspective of why people say and do the things they do, but I'm not getting the impression most you are even open to alternative views or reasoning. So is this thread for hating on Trump and his voters or for discussion of topics on hand involving Trump?

hi Versatile

If you find specific posts that violate the forum rules you can use the "report to moderator" button.  You can also PM a moderator if you have any questions about specific actions.

In general, moderators cannot and do not read all the treads, nor do they try to micro-manage this forum. 

There are many people here who like to hear differing viewpoints - please share yours.
~n~

DaMa

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4938 on: November 20, 2018, 12:50:40 PM »
Welcome, Versatile.
I have often said I understand someone voting for Trump -- he was the Republican on the ballot.  I don't understand educated, thoughtful people actually supporting him.  Which is one of the reasons why I do appreciate reading comments from those people.  Most people posting here don't hate on the Trump voters. 

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4939 on: November 20, 2018, 01:11:07 PM »
Had a hard time figuring out which one was the turkey in that clip of the traditional "release one of the birds" thanksgiving event at the WH today (sorry, couldn't resist).

Trump has nailed his colours to the mast today with some pretty strident support of Saudi Arabia. Quite vehemently expressing that it was in America's national interest to quietly paper over the unfortunate demise of a WP correspondent.

Sad sorry state of affairs when someone's life is simply the cost of doing business.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4940 on: November 20, 2018, 01:29:50 PM »

Trump has nailed his colours to the mast today with some pretty strident support of Saudi Arabia. Quite vehemently expressing that it was in America's national interest to quietly paper over the unfortunate demise of a WP correspondent.

Sad sorry state of affairs when someone's life is simply the cost of doing business.

Saudi Arabia needs the US a hell of a lot more than we need them. If 'the great dealmaker' were looking out for America's national interests he would grasp that within seconds. This is not about what is in the US's best interest

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4941 on: November 20, 2018, 01:50:44 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

This is actually a complicated question with two parts:

1. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things morally wrong?
2. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things politically damaging?

I think the answer lies in how the KKK was vanquished.  Social shame and contempt were powerful tools, and it stopped the spread of a noxious ideology. The targets of the contempt were racists, but the audience for the contempt was people on the edges who could have gone either way who didn't want the stench of the social shame to get on them.  I think this fulfills 1 and 2, because it was effective and it stopped something far worse than whatever the moral category for "making fun of racists" is.  Do you think there was a lot of hand-wringing in the 1950s about how mean people were to nice families who just didn't want their kids to swim in a pool with kids of a different color? 

For Trump supporters, the various elements of their ideology fall along a spectrum.  Some of them believe things that are just wacky (anti-vaccine, Seth Rich conspiracies, pizzagate, Qanon) just like Trump himself spouting off about Ted Cruz's dad killing Kennedy.  Some of them are racists.  And some of them just really want anti-abortion judges.  I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that people who believe conspiracy theories are idiots. Concern trolling that this makes people feel bad isn't going to bring people over to our side.  The kind of people who believe this stuff aren't reachable. 

Specifically addressing 2 and not 1, if Trump supporters were so offended by people being mean, they wouldn't support him in the first place.  Trump calls people idiots all the time, and it hasn't cooled the ardor of the Trump base.  They love it.  They love an authoritarian.  They love a bully. 





Where are the mods here? I just signed up for this and I agreed not to personally insult anyone or abuse my privileges. I assume you guys did too and if this were an isolated event I wouldn't be responding. This behavior is awful and to justify it because you believe you are taking down the KKK is laughable at best.

I voted for Trump for reasons other than the simplistic notion that I am under-educated, racist, you guys know the buzz words. When you make comments like the above you are painting a broad brush over tens of millions of your fellow countrymen. That's a lot of people that you are taking credit for in knowing their inner thoughts. Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that?

I like reading people's perspectives on why they believe what they believe, even if I disagree with them. That's why I visit the Off-Topics to get a perspective of why people say and do the things they do, but I'm not getting the impression most you are even open to alternative views or reasoning. So is this thread for hating on Trump and his voters or for discussion of topics on hand involving Trump?

Versatile-I only condemned those Trump voters who are racist, conspiracy theorists, or who believe things that are demonstrably untrue.  Some Trump voters, I assume, are good people, and I acknowledged that there is a spectrum of reasons that people voted for him.  On the other hand, some of the loudest voices in his base are QAnon conspiracy theorists, birthers, or believe that Ted Cruz's father shot JFK.  Oh-sorry.  The last one is just something that Trump believes.

I gave the example of the KKK as how we marginalized views that were widespread and yet harmful.  I fully believe that birtherism, QAnon, etc are harmful conspiracy theories that should be marginalized, and I apologize that wasn't expressed more clearly.  On the other hand, it's actually kind of the point that you are supposed to look around at your fellow Trump voters and figure out how the stench of their awful ideology doesn't get on you.  Just like how Fox news likes to paint all the left as Antifa, and Democrats are expected to condemn it or else be guilty by association. I think it would be helpful if Trump voters were to come out and say" Birtherism is wrong" or "Ted Cruz's father didn't kill JFK, and that's insulting" 
 

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4942 on: November 20, 2018, 02:55:37 PM »
Welcome @Versatile.  Lots of answers to your concerns above, so I will not repeat them here.  Looking forward to you returning and reading some of them and seeing that most do want to have a discussion and to see what you can add to the discussion here.  I too am a Republican but was unable to square my values with the available candidate so I happily voted for another candidate.  I also happily voted for many Democrats in the mid-terms because of the taint of the top office holder.  They also seemed a lot more aware of the issues than the candidates in our state who ran on a lot of coattails views, of which I did not agree.  I have a lot of relatives who voted for Trump and have been upfront that they just do not care how the guy acts as long as he gets them their SC justices, and they are well educated and as far as I can tell, not racist either, so I know many voted for him.  Looking forward to hearing your input.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4943 on: November 20, 2018, 03:37:50 PM »
I only get to see the 'international editions' of USA Today and CNN, but I did get access to Trump's official statement on Khashoggi's killing - https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-statement-saudi-khashoggi/index.html

Quote
I understand there are members of Congress who, for political or other reasons, would like to go in a different direction - and they are free to do so. I will consider whatever ideas are presented to me, but only if they are consistent with the absolute security and safety of America. After the United States, Saudi Arabia is the largest oil producing nation in the world. They have worked closely with us and have been very responsive to my requests to keeping oil prices at reasonable levels -- so important for the world. As President of the United States I intend to ensure that, in a very dangerous world, America is pursuing its national interests and vigorously contesting countries that wish to do us harm. Very simply it is called America First!

So 'America First' meant other countries can kill Americans that they find problematic, as long as Trump doesn't mind?  America has changed more than I realize, maybe I'll stay in France a little longer and see if things get better or worse over the next two years!

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4944 on: November 20, 2018, 04:19:42 PM »
From the New York Times -
"President Trump told the White House counsel in the spring that he wanted to order the Justice Department to prosecute two of his political adversaries: his 2016 challenger, Hillary Clinton, and the former F.B.I. director James B. Comey"


ye gods and little fishes.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4945 on: November 20, 2018, 04:27:03 PM »
Trump bashes the FBI, Trump doesn't believe the CIA. Trump loves Putin and little Rocket Man, Trump doesn't want to believe Saudi Arabia has committed a heinous murder. Trump doesn't believe in global warming. Trump bashes women, Mexicans, Muslims, Puerto Rico, Elizabeth Warren, Adam Schiff,  John McCain, reporters...many, many others...

He wants people to think he cares about the Veterans. He can't be bothered to go to Veterans cemeteries to commemorate their service to our country.

He told us we were going to have better, cheaper healthcare as the GOP swung sledge hammers at it. He could care less.

He believes in coal? He believes the forests need raking? OMG!

He tries to put fear into people and the latest was the caravan of people headed to the Mexico/USA boarder. As soon as the midterm elections were over, not another word on these evil doers.

Very depressing to have a leader who is so hate riddled and such a liar.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:40:23 PM by Roadrunner53 »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4946 on: November 20, 2018, 04:43:40 PM »
Trump bashes the FBI, Trump doesn't believe the CIA. Trump loves Putin and little Rocket Man, Trump doesn't want to believe Saudi Arabia has committed a heinous murder. Trump doesn't believe in global warming. Trump bashes women, Mexicans, Muslims, Puerto Rico, Elizabeth Warren, Adam Schiff,  John McCain, reporters...many, many others...

He wants people to think he cares about the Veterans. He can't be bothered to go to Veterans cemeteries to commemorate their service to our country.

He told us we were going to have better, cheaper healthcare as the GOP swung sledge hammers at it. He could care less.

He believes in coal? He believes the forests need raking? OMG!

He tries to put fear into people and the latest was the caravan of people headed to the Mexico/USA boarder. As soon as the midterm elections were over, not another word on these evil doers.

Very depressing to have a leader who is so hate riddled and such a liar.

Yes. And his bullshit political stunt sending American troops to the border with Mexico cost US taxpayers $200,000,000 dollars.

This president does not support the troops. He does not care about the American people. All he cares about is himself and his ego. And he doesn’t care about any consequences for anyone else.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4947 on: November 20, 2018, 04:44:00 PM »
I only get to see the 'international editions' of USA Today and CNN, but I did get access to Trump's official statement on Khashoggi's killing - https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-statement-saudi-khashoggi/index.html

Quote
I understand there are members of Congress who, for political or other reasons, would like to go in a different direction - and they are free to do so. I will consider whatever ideas are presented to me, but only if they are consistent with the absolute security and safety of America. After the United States, Saudi Arabia is the largest oil producing nation in the world. They have worked closely with us and have been very responsive to my requests to keeping oil prices at reasonable levels -- so important for the world. As President of the United States I intend to ensure that, in a very dangerous world, America is pursuing its national interests and vigorously contesting countries that wish to do us harm. Very simply it is called America First!

So 'America First' meant other countries can kill Americans that they find problematic, as long as Trump doesn't mind?  America has changed more than I realize, maybe I'll stay in France a little longer and see if things get better or worse over the next two years!

Ouch, it got worse on the actual reporting - https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/donald-trump-jamal-khashoggi-saudi-arabia/index.html

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4948 on: November 20, 2018, 05:02:54 PM »
Current Pentagon estimate on the to-date cost for sending active military troops to the Mexican boarder: $72 million.
The ongoing cost of the 2,100 national guard members who have been deployed since April: $138 million

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pentagon-troop-deployment-border-cost-72-million-dec/story?id=59328160

NewPerspective

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4949 on: November 20, 2018, 05:07:36 PM »
POLITICO is reporting U.S. troops deployed to the southern border for the "invasion" will begin returning home asap. All troops will be back to their bases by December 15.

Quite an expensive political stunt, no?

Seriously. If you are a Trump supporter, you are an idiot.

Hey, when did you become so divisive?     Showing contempt for your fellow citizens is a bad thing.

This is actually a complicated question with two parts:

1. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things morally wrong?
2. Is showing contempt for Trump supporters who think stupid, fantastical, or racist things politically damaging?

I think the answer lies in how the KKK was vanquished.  Social shame and contempt were powerful tools, and it stopped the spread of a noxious ideology. The targets of the contempt were racists, but the audience for the contempt was people on the edges who could have gone either way who didn't want the stench of the social shame to get on them.  I think this fulfills 1 and 2, because it was effective and it stopped something far worse than whatever the moral category for "making fun of racists" is.  Do you think there was a lot of hand-wringing in the 1950s about how mean people were to nice families who just didn't want their kids to swim in a pool with kids of a different color? 

For Trump supporters, the various elements of their ideology fall along a spectrum.  Some of them believe things that are just wacky (anti-vaccine, Seth Rich conspiracies, pizzagate, Qanon) just like Trump himself spouting off about Ted Cruz's dad killing Kennedy.  Some of them are racists.  And some of them just really want anti-abortion judges.  I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that people who believe conspiracy theories are idiots. Concern trolling that this makes people feel bad isn't going to bring people over to our side.  The kind of people who believe this stuff aren't reachable. 

Specifically addressing 2 and not 1, if Trump supporters were so offended by people being mean, they wouldn't support him in the first place.  Trump calls people idiots all the time, and it hasn't cooled the ardor of the Trump base.  They love it.  They love an authoritarian.  They love a bully. 





Where are the mods here? I just signed up for this and I agreed not to personally insult anyone or abuse my privileges. I assume you guys did too and if this were an isolated event I wouldn't be responding. This behavior is awful and to justify it because you believe you are taking down the KKK is laughable at best.

I voted for Trump for reasons other than the simplistic notion that I am under-educated, racist, you guys know the buzz words. When you make comments like the above you are painting a broad brush over tens of millions of your fellow countrymen. That's a lot of people that you are taking credit for in knowing their inner thoughts. Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that?

I like reading people's perspectives on why they believe what they believe, even if I disagree with them. That's why I visit the Off-Topics to get a perspective of why people say and do the things they do, but I'm not getting the impression most you are even open to alternative views or reasoning. So is this thread for hating on Trump and his voters or for discussion of topics on hand involving Trump?

The president routinely makes it clear that (all) Democrats are the enemy, that he isn't the president for all Americans, only Republicans that support him.   Not sure why anonymous powerless posters on the internet are held to a higher standard than the President.

I don't think this aspect of his administration is talked about enough. He is so incredibly divisive.  He doesn't even pretend to try to unite.  Ever.  This is the president that lost the popular vote.