Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 376246 times)

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4850 on: November 08, 2018, 09:38:24 AM »
I think it is a little odd that people get so worked up about the "popular vote." Even though Republicans controlled the House through most of Obamas presidency. 'Oh, it was the gerrymandering.' Bull; lots of states have strong Democratic parties and representation, that is not all Republicans just working the system, they are just not that good.

The heart of the argument is a core belief held by many that government should reflect the will of the will of the people.  It's reflected in the mantra " government of the people, by the people, for the people" first spoken by Abraham Lincoln.  The reality is that the method which was developed to select our leaders allows at times for those with minority support to obtain and retain power. When candidates win elections with a minority of votes repeatedly the question arises about whether this is truly a reflection of the will of the constituents. 

Who knows, maybe D-districts are typically 90% for their party while R-districts are 55/45% because Democrats can only tolerate to be around one another while Republicans enjoy diversity. Just a thought.
While possible (though I think unlikely based on personal experience) it is irrelevant to the issue above. From a representitive standpoint, it doesn't matter whether there are pockets where the populace will support only one candidate or party; what matters is whether government as a whole reflects the broader breakdown of its citizens.
We also do not have to 'guess' about how supportive various groups are of their party and of individual candidates. That information is readily available for all states, counties and districts, and can (and has) been dissected a hundred different ways. The short summary is that both parties enjoy regions where they have overwhelming support, and citizens within those regions are intolerant of the political contrarian view.

My point is when people see a result or district they do not like there is a lot of blame laid at gerrymandering; by Republicans. I think that is absurd. Democrats aren't that incompetent and Republicans are not that slick. Look for another reason this happens. My guess is people in large cities lean heavily democratic and though possible, there is just no way to split that with sub/ex-urban neighborhoods without absurd gerrymandering. Another guess, when looking at a map there are odd shaped elongated districts and we think they should be more uniform round or square looking, when in reality they likely follow roads and areas where people trade, work and live.

My 'intolerant/diversity' comment, somewhat humorous or thought provoking I admit, though does have some truth from my personal experience. Republicans would welcome anyone, of any shade, though finding they have a political disagreement would be quiet or ignore the subject. Democratic leaning people, they ones I personally encounter no less initially welcoming, tend to engage someone they disagree with to the point of making them feel unwelcome and unsafe.

I know this gets held up as a good thing, but do you really think it would be a good thing to have a nice, peaceful tea party with Hitler while just ignoring the touchy subject of his politics?

To be clear, this is a genuine question and I'm not trying to compare you or anyone else to Hitler or Nazis.  They're just the obvious extremes that immediately come to mind to illustrate the point.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4851 on: November 08, 2018, 09:56:44 AM »
The litmus test for whether a State's districts are representative (i.e. 'fair'0 is simple: do the number of representatives from each party roughly match votes cast? In the parlance - are they efficient in representing the voters?  It's worth noting that North Carolina has had one of the highest efficiency gaps in the country, where Hoping2retire35 lives; with 13 districts, 10 are GOP and 3 are Dems, despite vote totals that were ~54/46 (suggesting the true representation would be 7 to 6 or (to account for natural randomness) 8 to 5.

It's beside the point, but I'm almost certain hoping2retire35 lives in South Carolina, not North Carolina. "Upstate" or "Upcountry" are terms commonly used by residents of the Palmetto State to refer to the northwest quadrant of the state, in the vicinity of Greenville and Spartanburg.

Thank you for pointing that out, and I corrected the earlier post. I misunderstood the term "upcountry Carolina".

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4853 on: November 08, 2018, 10:02:56 AM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4854 on: November 08, 2018, 10:06:36 AM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4855 on: November 08, 2018, 10:29:57 AM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I’m sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4856 on: November 08, 2018, 01:11:01 PM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I知 sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

I think she will recover, but it's an illustration of the challenges of getting elderly, balance becomes increasingly more difficult.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4857 on: November 08, 2018, 01:30:59 PM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I知 sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

I think she will recover, but it's an illustration of the challenges of getting elderly, balance becomes increasingly more difficult.

Ha, my grandfather tried to climb a ladder the other day and broke 7 ribs and screwed up his shoulder. He is 90.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4858 on: November 08, 2018, 01:38:06 PM »
The litmus test for whether a State's districts are representative (i.e. 'fair') is simple: do the number of representatives from each party roughly match votes cast?

Sure, for the House.  Looking at the math on national scale, they look pretty good.  In this election democrats got about 52% of the vote, and they will hold about 52% of the seats.  It's close, on a national scale.

The Senate is an entirely different level of fucked up, which I realize is by design.  57% of Americans voted for a democratic senate candidate, and yet democrats will only hold 44% of senate seats in the coming congress.  That's a 13 point spread!  I don't think anyone argues that state lines are gerrymandered on purpose, but they are indisputably inefficient at representing the country and they definitely give a large advantage to one party.  Some of our more stubborn founding fathers made absolutely certain that rural people would have a deliberately disproportionate voice in our government, and we are suffering for their ignorance to this day.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4859 on: November 08, 2018, 01:53:25 PM »
Those stats include two Dems running against each other in California, so it's a little skewed.  But even so, I get the point.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4860 on: November 08, 2018, 02:10:59 PM »
The litmus test for whether a State's districts are representative (i.e. 'fair') is simple: do the number of representatives from each party roughly match votes cast?

Sure, for the House.  Looking at the math on national scale, they look pretty good.  In this election democrats got about 52% of the vote, and they will hold about 52% of the seats.  It's close, on a national scale.

Except the only relevant scale for House races is at the State level. Why? Because each State sets its own districts, and no state can influence the votes of another state.


The Senate is an entirely different level of fucked up, which I realize is by design.  57% of Americans voted for a democratic senate candidate, and yet democrats will only hold 44% of senate seats in the coming congress.  That's a 13 point spread!  I don't think anyone argues that state lines are gerrymandered on purpose, but they are indisputably inefficient at representing the country and they definitely give a large advantage to one party.  Some of our more stubborn founding fathers made absolutely certain that rural people would have a deliberately disproportionate voice in our government, and we are suffering for their ignorance to this day.

The Senate has its own quarks, but it isn't due to Gerrymandering.  By definition you can't gerrymander a senate race, because the entire state gets to vote for one candidate, and for all states except Maine whomever gets the most votes wins.

But you've highlighted the inherent unfairness with the US Senate - we've got California with ~39MM people and two Senators, and then we've got about 19 states that combined have fewer people but collectively have 38 senators. With the odd exception of tiny Rhode Island these are extremely rural states, which means rural voters and rural issues are grossly overrepresented in the Senate.  The GOP has held power by appealing to rural voters who are a minority in this country (~19% US citizens live in rural areas) but hold a huge amount of political power.

AS you said, it was by design, but not what the founders envisioned.  In 1800, shortly after 'the great compromise' was struck, only about 8% of people lived in urban areas. Now it's about 80%.


*Maine uses ranked-choice voting for federal elections.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 02:30:15 PM by nereo »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4861 on: November 08, 2018, 02:23:16 PM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I知 sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

I think she will recover, but it's an illustration of the challenges of getting elderly, balance becomes increasingly more difficult.

SHE WAS TRIPPED!

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4862 on: November 08, 2018, 03:05:52 PM »
But you've highlighted the inherent unfairness with the US Senate - we've got California with ~39MM people and two Senators, and then we've got about 19 states that combined have fewer people but collectively have 38 senators.

I was watching election returns and was struck by the discrepancies in the voter turnout between these states.  I watched a republican from Wyoming win a senate seat with only a few tens of thousands of total votes, then I watched Beto O'Rourke get 4 million votes in Texas and still lose.  He gets nothing.

And the House of Representatives, which ostensibly represents the popular vote, has the exact same problem.  Even though big states have more reps than small states, they don't have anywhere near as many reps as they should, based on their populations, because of the hard cap at 435 passed by Republicans in 1911/1929 for the stated purpose of disenfranchising urban voters and still in effect today.  As a result of these shenanigans, Wyoming's meager population not only gets an equal say in the Senate, it also gets ~30% more representation in the House of Representatives per person than does New York's population. 

How's that for nationwide gerrymandering?

Quote from: wikipedia
Then, in 1920, the Republicans removed the Democrats from power as the Whigs had done in 1838, taking the presidency and both houses of Congress. Due to increased immigration and a large rural-to-urban shift in population from 1910 to 1920, the new Republican Congress refused to reapportion the House of Representatives with the traditional contiguous, single-member districts stipulations because such a reapportionment would have redistricted many House members out of their districts.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4863 on: November 08, 2018, 03:41:15 PM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4864 on: November 08, 2018, 03:46:18 PM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.
...but if he knows of unlawful activity in congress, shouldn't he be investigating that anyways? Or is he just saying that he's okay with it as long as they don't investigate him?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4865 on: November 08, 2018, 04:03:23 PM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.

I say investigate everything and everyone in the federal government.  Throw back the drapes, sunlight is the best disinfectant.   Those who have broken no laws get to stay, the rest get tossed out with the garbage.

I wonder about anyone who wants to keep the truth hidden.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:04:08 PM by nereo »

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4866 on: November 08, 2018, 04:47:42 PM »
You're comparing the midterm election vote to the total composition of the Senate. There were only 35 seats up for election and democrats are looking to win 23, that's 66% of seats for 57% of vote.

Now, I'd never make a argument that the number is skewed in favor of democrats. The senate was designed specifically to give equal representation to each State, not the populous of each state. Using a popular vote for everything is dumb. Federalist papers are a good source for reasoning of the founding fathers.

The litmus test for whether a State's districts are representative (i.e. 'fair') is simple: do the number of representatives from each party roughly match votes cast?

Sure, for the House.  Looking at the math on national scale, they look pretty good.  In this election democrats got about 52% of the vote, and they will hold about 52% of the seats.  It's close, on a national scale.

The Senate is an entirely different level of fucked up, which I realize is by design.  57% of Americans voted for a democratic senate candidate, and yet democrats will only hold 44% of senate seats in the coming congress.  That's a 13 point spread!  I don't think anyone argues that state lines are gerrymandered on purpose, but they are indisputably inefficient at representing the country and they definitely give a large advantage to one party.  Some of our more stubborn founding fathers made absolutely certain that rural people would have a deliberately disproportionate voice in our government, and we are suffering for their ignorance to this day.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4867 on: November 08, 2018, 05:07:53 PM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I知 sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

I think she will recover, but it's an illustration of the challenges of getting elderly, balance becomes increasingly more difficult.

SHE WAS TRIPPED!

Nobody can prove that Kavenaugh did it.





And even if someone could, it's not like it would be investigated anyway.

:P

NorthernBlitz

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4868 on: November 08, 2018, 06:18:29 PM »
Ugh - this could get a whole lot worse.  I'd donate a rib to keep her on the Supreme Court for two more years. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/8/18075262/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-hospital-age
apparently she broke three ribs; i'll donate another.  Do we have a third?
I知 sure I can spare one for the notorious RBG.

I think she will recover, but it's an illustration of the challenges of getting elderly, balance becomes increasingly more difficult.

I think it also illustrates that it's stupid for supreme court positions to be for life.

Maybe appointments wouldn't be such shit shows if terms were 8-10 years or something.

Also, I think it's a bit silly to think that there isn't a 30-50 year old that would do a much better job than any 85 year old in a job that requires a significant amount of cognitive ability.

I think it's equally ridiculous when you have to pick between two presidential candidates that should both have been retired for at least half a decade or so. The president of the US must be a crazily demanding job. Maybe we should pick someone that isn't in the part of their life where people have dramatic declines in their physical and mental ability.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4869 on: November 08, 2018, 06:21:49 PM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.

I say investigate everything and everyone in the federal government.  Throw back the drapes, sunlight is the best disinfectant.   Those who have broken no laws get to stay, the rest get tossed out with the garbage.

I wonder about anyone who wants to keep the truth hidden.

This. I'd love to have Mueller type scrutiny on every politician in Washington. It would be way too expensive, but I think most people probably believe that the vast majority (probably all) of them are corrupt.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4870 on: November 08, 2018, 06:46:56 PM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.
...but if he knows of unlawful activity in congress, shouldn't he be investigating that anyways? Or is he just saying that he's okay with it as long as they don't investigate him?

Hilarious isn't it. If Trump has dirt he absolutely would be investigating. Dems should call his bluff.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4871 on: November 09, 2018, 07:52:57 AM »
Now, I'd never make a argument that the number is skewed in favor of democrats. The senate was designed specifically to give equal representation to each State, not the populous of each state. Using a popular vote for everything is dumb. Federalist papers are a good source for reasoning of the founding fathers.

Similar arguments could have been made against the 17th Amendment requiring direct election of Senators. I think the point that is being made is that individual state's interests are no way as nearly divergent now as they were back in the 1780s. If the purpose of the Senate was originally to temper popular power and grant an (even more) narrower slice of the citizens outsized control, then we need to decide
1. Is this even a legitimate goal for our national government today?
2. Is there a better way to accomplish this or something like it?

I think it's rather silly to argue that states individually need special representation in Congress, it seems very arbitrary these days with so much immigration and movement of people, commerce, services across state lines. I'd certainly be open to considering abolishing the Senate or replacing it with a body created by a different means, even if it was proportional like the House but with longer terms. The "popular vote for everything is dumb" argument is, well frankly, rather dull itself.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4872 on: November 09, 2018, 08:13:16 AM »
Did you notice that Trump looked noticeably unhappy with Acosta's questions?    And he's threatened congress to investigate their unlawful activity if they keep investigating him?      The scent of something new is in the air.

I say investigate everything and everyone in the federal government.  Throw back the drapes, sunlight is the best disinfectant.   Those who have broken no laws get to stay, the rest get tossed out with the garbage.

I wonder about anyone who wants to keep the truth hidden.

This. I'd love to have Mueller type scrutiny on every politician in Washington. It would be way too expensive, but I think most people probably believe that the vast majority (probably all) of them are corrupt.


It would only be prohibitively expensive with the way that most departments currently run their day-to-day operations.

The key is verifiable transparency coupled with clear-cut rules. Tax returns, personal holdings and business dealings should be disclosed to highlight any COI. Expenses (already tracked by accounting) should be public knowledge and not disclosed only after multiple onerous FOIA requests. Nepotism laws need to be strengthened and enforced (e.g. you cannot hire a close relative to upper management, period) and private contributions disclosed. Salaried positions must have minimum qualifications, including time spent working within that particular department or industry.

All of these things are common place among many large companies. The more transparent these companies are, the fewer problems they have with nepotism and fraud. Investigations are only expensive when these practices don't exist or aren't followed.

Reducing corruption and fraud isn't rocket science*, and it almost always comes down to verifiable transparency.

*except at NASA (bad pun).

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4873 on: November 09, 2018, 08:37:33 AM »
Seems Republicans in Florida don't really need gerrymandering, just accuse the other side of fraud and try to stop vote counting. Giving up on the idea of democracy so easily...

Disgusting!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4874 on: November 09, 2018, 08:39:05 AM »
Seems Republicans in Florida don't really need gerrymandering, just accuse the other side of fraud and try to stop vote counting. Giving up on the idea of democracy so easily...


"There's definitely NO NEED to count all these ballots! That's just a waste of time and money!"

turketron

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4875 on: November 09, 2018, 09:28:46 AM »
Seems like they have the same playbook in Arizona: https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/415894-cindy-mccain-rips-arizona-gop-for-suing-over-counting-mail-in-ballots-i-am

I'm certainly glad Cindy McCain is speaking up, but she, and her husband when he was alive, were content to support (or at least not actively speak out against) voter suppression tactics by their party until now. As always seems to be the case with Republicans, they only say anything once it affects them personally.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4876 on: November 16, 2018, 10:03:02 AM »
Seems Trump has been a raging bull in the White House since the mid term election. Now, he has to give back Acosta's pass to the White House...LOVE IT!


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4877 on: November 16, 2018, 10:12:24 AM »
Seems Trump has been a raging bull in the White House since the mid term election. Now, he has to give back Acosta's pass to the White House...LOVE IT!

Another interesting example of how our democracy has sustained a constant barrage of attacks from the executive branch, yet keeps soldering on. Acosta gets his press pass back, recounts continue following State law despite efforts to halt them, voters ultimately get to say who represents them.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4878 on: November 16, 2018, 10:17:18 AM »
Love Trumps theory of people voting then going out to their cars and putting on different hats, shirts to disguise themselves so they can go and vote again. OMG, SERIOUSLY!

Even if that happened, how many people were doing it to make any difference on the outcome of a huge election?

Where does this guy come up with these outrageously stupid theories?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4879 on: November 16, 2018, 10:35:03 AM »
Love Trumps theory of people voting then going out to their cars and putting on different hats, shirts to disguise themselves so they can go and vote again. OMG, SERIOUSLY!

Voter fraud is a federal offense punishable by 5 years in prison and up to a $10,000 fine, in addition to state penalties.  It's hard for me to imagine anyone except for a few nutzo-crazy types risking this level of punishment, particularly when even 'close' federal elections typically have winning margins of tens-of-thousands of votes. A person would risk incarceration for something that would almost certainly not change the outcome.

Also notable that after each election cycle most states prosecute exactly zero people for voter fraud.  If this were a widespread problem one would expect dozens-to-hundreds of convictions in each state every election cycle, particularly since there are so many people from various organizations watching out for exactly this sort of crime.

Where does this guy come up with these outrageously stupid theories?
 
Fox News, the Daily Caller, Breitbart.  All have run stories on allegations of wide-spread voter fraud, and all are organizations that Trump has been known to watch.

Crease

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4880 on: November 16, 2018, 10:43:31 AM »
Love Trumps theory of people voting then going out to their cars and putting on different hats, shirts to disguise themselves so they can go and vote again. OMG, SERIOUSLY!

Even if that happened, how many people were doing it to make any difference on the outcome of a huge election?

Where does this guy come up with these outrageously stupid theories?

I don't even understand how this would work. In New York, you show up to the polling center for your election district, go to your assigned table, and sign next to a copy of the signature on your driver's license. Then you're allowed to vote.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4881 on: November 16, 2018, 10:48:38 AM »
Funny, they are trying to prepare Trump for the written Muller questions. They were saying that Trump has so many stories for every incident that they have to get him on the right path for him remembering what story he told on what day! They are scared that the questions are trick questions. Hahaha! If you don't lie, you shouldn't have trouble remembering the truth.

Anyone know what the heck happened with Avenatti and his arrest? Why are there so few details?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4882 on: November 16, 2018, 11:10:35 AM »
Love Trumps theory of people voting then going out to their cars and putting on different hats, shirts to disguise themselves so they can go and vote again. OMG, SERIOUSLY!

Even if that happened, how many people were doing it to make any difference on the outcome of a huge election?

Where does this guy come up with these outrageously stupid theories?

I don't even understand how this would work. In New York, you show up to the polling center for your election district, go to your assigned table, and sign next to a copy of the signature on your driver's license. Then you're allowed to vote.

Seriously. In Georgia, you have to present photo ID. You don't need to understand how "this would work", you just need to understand that the president is a pathological liar, and half the people in our country think that's awesome.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4883 on: November 16, 2018, 11:14:45 AM »
Love Trumps theory of people voting then going out to their cars and putting on different hats, shirts to disguise themselves so they can go and vote again. OMG, SERIOUSLY!

Even if that happened, how many people were doing it to make any difference on the outcome of a huge election?

Where does this guy come up with these outrageously stupid theories?

I don't even understand how this would work. In New York, you show up to the polling center for your election district, go to your assigned table, and sign next to a copy of the signature on your driver's license. Then you're allowed to vote.

Laws vary from state-to-state and proceedures from precinct to precinct.  About a dozen(ish) states do not require a government ID to vote, including mine.

In our precinct you give your name to the front table when you come in, and they mark off your name and hand you a ballot - your name is only listed on the voter roles if you are a registered voter for the precinct.  To vote multiple times you'd need to give multiple different names that are registered at the precinct, and then hope that the real person doesn't show up to vote (which would expose your fraud). In any case it would involve going up to the same group of people and claiming to be a different person each time.

The likelihood of being recognized/caught seems extraordinarily high, while the time involved and potential jail time you could serve are sizable deterrents.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4884 on: November 16, 2018, 11:25:11 AM »
i'm not sure how i feel about the acosta thing. it seems to me like 2 assholes in a room arguing with each other.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4885 on: November 16, 2018, 11:35:16 AM »
i'm not sure how i feel about the acosta thing. it seems to me like 2 assholes in a room arguing with each other.

I don't think legality should be determined on whether a person is likable.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4886 on: November 16, 2018, 11:40:01 AM »
Acosta asks questions Trump doesn't want to hear. He was RUDE to other people at that same press conference. He thinks he is above the law and can twist the law however he wants it.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4887 on: November 16, 2018, 11:43:32 AM »
Funny, they are trying to prepare Trump for the written Muller questions. They were saying that Trump has so many stories for every incident that they have to get him on the right path for him remembering what story he told on what day! They are scared that the questions are trick questions. Hahaha! If you don't lie, you shouldn't have trouble remembering the truth.
Yep - you only commit perjury if you intentionally lie under oath.

Speaking of which, this comment by DJT about his answers to Mueller's quesitons has me scratching my head:
Quote
溺y lawyers aren稚 working on it. I知 working on it, Trump said. 溺y lawyers don稚 write the answers.

THis is weirdly possessive of him and could bite him in the ass later. It basically eliminates any future defense of: "that answer was supplied by my council / I didn't write that response."  Even when people (his lawyers) are trying to protect him, his ego puts him even more in jeopardy.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4888 on: November 16, 2018, 11:50:32 AM »
溺y lawyers aren稚 working on it. I知 working on it, Trump said. 溺y lawyers don稚 write the answers.

THis is weirdly possessive of him and could bite him in the ass later. It basically eliminates any future defense of: "that answer was supplied by my council / I didn't write that response."  Even when people (his lawyers) are trying to protect him, his ego puts him even more in jeopardy.

I doubt there is any truth to this statement. He probably has 10 lawyers pulling apart every word to analyze it to death. If he is doing it by himself, GOOD, because you know he will step in deep doo doo. He will just say it is rigged and a witch hunt and blah, blah, blah...his usual rhetoric.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4889 on: November 16, 2018, 12:02:14 PM »
I doubt there is any truth to this statement. He probably has 10 lawyers pulling apart every word to analyze it to death. If he is doing it by himself, GOOD, because you know he will step in deep doo doo. He will just say it is rigged and a witch hunt and blah, blah, blah...his usual rhetoric.
Oh absolutely I believe that every word has been vetted by several lawyers, but what's important is that he has claimed publicly that these are HIS answers and that HE wrote them. Later on he'll have trouble back-tracking on that, as it will evoke the question "are you lying now or were you lying then?"

As for the lawyers vetting all his statements, they (the lawyers) are dependent on what Trump has told them is true. Throughout his entire career Trump has never been shy about lying or contradicting himself, even to his inner circle and family members. I expect that dishonestly extends to what he tells his own lawyers about what did and didn't happen.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4890 on: November 16, 2018, 12:20:29 PM »
Sooner or later his lying has got to catch up with him! I can't wait till that day comes.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4891 on: November 16, 2018, 12:33:10 PM »
Another interesting example of how our democracy has sustained a constant barrage of attacks from the executive branch, yet keeps soldering on. Acosta gets his press pass back, recounts continue following State law despite efforts to halt them, voters ultimately get to say who represents them.

It has been gratifying to see the checks and balances in action as courts reign in the worst of the administration's questionable power plays.

No surprise then that Trump and company are working hard to remake the judiciary into something much more friendly to their agenda. Yet more dangerous corrosion to the democratic norms that glue our country together, executed quietly while Trump's verbal and twitter shit throwing draws all the attention and outrage.
 

Prior to the Trump administration, there was plenty of tit for tat in the escalating partisan wars over judicial nominations. But these tactics were aimed at blocking nominees. Since Trump was sworn in, however, the GOP Senate leadership has moved aggressively to speed confirmation of new judges, casting aside long-existing practices and traditions that ensured some consensus in picking the judges who sit on the federal courts of appeal.

Gone, for all practical purposes, is the tradition that prevented action on a judicial nominee who was not approved by his or her home state senators. Gone is the practice of not holding a confirmation hearing until the American Bar Association has completed its professional evaluation of the nominee. Gone is the general practice of not piling up multiple nominees in one hearing. And now, for the first time, the Senate Judiciary Committee is holding confirmation hearings during a Senate recess, over the objections of the minority party.


...

The GOP-controlled Senate has confirmed 29 Trump nominees to federal appeals courts, compared with the confirmation of just two
nominees over the last two years of the Obama presidency. In all, Trump-appointed judges now represent an astonishing one-sixth of the sitting, active federal appeals court judges in the country.


https://www.npr.org/2018/10/27/660643999/trump-republicans-continue-remaking-the-federal-courts-even-as-senate-on-recess

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4892 on: November 16, 2018, 07:28:01 PM »
Gone, for all practical purposes, is the tradition that prevented action on a judicial nominee who was not approved by his or her home state senators. Gone is the practice of not holding a confirmation hearing until the American Bar Association has completed its professional evaluation of the nominee. Gone is the general practice of not piling up multiple nominees in one hearing. And now, for the first time, the Senate Judiciary Committee is holding confirmation hearings during a Senate recess, over the objections of the minority party.[/i]
The GOP-controlled Senate has confirmed 29 Trump nominees to federal appeals courts, compared with the confirmation of just two
nominees over the last two years of the Obama presidency. In all, Trump-appointed judges now represent an astonishing one-sixth of the sitting, active federal appeals court judges in the country.


It's angering that the wheels of our democracy turn so slowly at times to correct these ills, maddening that the GOP wouldn't confirm Obama justices and now stacking everything in their favor. It'll work out in the end- I'm betting that many of the Trump judges will end up either behind bars or permanently disgraced in some way. I wish the Democrats would come out for blood, but I already know they'll let me down as a whole.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4893 on: November 16, 2018, 08:46:48 PM »
If anything this provides notice to Democrats to get their shit in gear for 2020. Read an article about a West Virginia former paratrooper who lost in a congressional race but is attempting a presidential run. Guy had a good head on his shoulders and isn't "make fun-able" or able to be demonized like Clinton or Warren. I wish these Dems would throw Trump some punches. Rich greedy coward, how fricken hard can he be to beat?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4894 on: November 17, 2018, 06:35:19 AM »
On the news they were discussing the possibility of Trump throwing Pence under the bus and may run for the 2020 election with a more desirable running mate such as a woman to get those votes. Trump is also questioning Pence's loyalty. OMG, Pence drools all over Trump.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4895 on: November 17, 2018, 08:29:30 AM »
On the news they were discussing the possibility of Trump throwing Pence under the bus and may run for the 2020 election with a more desirable running mate such as a woman to get those votes. Trump is also questioning Pence's loyalty. OMG, Pence drools all over Trump.

Interesting hypothesis.  Even if Trump elevated a woman to be his VP I could see it backfiring on him fantastically.  He's routinely undercut Pence and thrown him under the bus several times.  WHen Trump does that to another privileged white male Pence just comes off as a chump.  But if he did this to a woman the optics affirm him as misogynistic bully.  Somehow I don't see educated suburban women flocking back to Trump after he makes a habit of speaking over his female running mate, contradicting her and talking about himself while announcing his new runningmate (all things he's done with Pence standing next to him).

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4896 on: November 17, 2018, 08:45:59 AM »
Nicky Haley's name was thrown in as food for thought for VP. However, when they televised her with Trump when her resignation was announced, he said she would be welcome back to the WH. She had that look on her face like she was ready to upchuck.

It may not work for Trump to take on a woman VP but in his twisted mind he will do anything to win the vote. He has no loyalty toward anyone but expects everyone to be loyal to him.

Now there is talk that Hillary might consider running again. What a nightmare and a mud slinging contest. Let us not forget "lock her up". Getting really OLD, OLD, OLD.


Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4897 on: November 17, 2018, 04:25:18 PM »
I really really hope Hilary doesn't run. I won't vote if she does, and bet Trump would win by a landslide. Democrat party has learned nothing if Pelosi gets Speaker and Clinton goes for run #3....

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4898 on: November 18, 2018, 12:44:24 PM »
Trump wants the forests raked to prevent forest fires. Maybe that is his answer to creating employment. Since there are millions of acres of forest, just think how many jobs that would create! Lots of Federal Jobs too! BWAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH, hilarious!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-says-raking-would-help-prevent-forest-fires_us_5bf0d578e4b0f32bd58a1aba

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4899 on: November 18, 2018, 01:12:10 PM »
It's a bit sad, but I was reminded how quiet the local news is about Trump while I'm living in France.  I was using the rail system to get to the airport and on the RER B line, they have some key equations used in climate modelling on the wall of the station.  I would imagine Obama was in the news quite favorably and often back then.

Then I read that Trump is fussing about needing to rake California forests  more often and nothing is changing his mind on climate change.  I'm sure Trump thinks he is saying something important and impactful, but the rest of the world is figuring out how to get on with life without needing to listen to him.  It's too bad Americans aren't allowed this wonderful luxury of being able to, for the most part, ignore him.  After some terrible Tweets last week (following somber Armistice Day memorials) about France needing the US to bail them out in WWII, Macron dismissed the fuss as being meant for his US audience.  And since then it has been back to the usual local issues like the fact diesel prices are too high (because the government is pricing in the 'negative externality' economic costs to offset climate change and need to offer support to low income families) and if Brexit will happen.

Also reading that World Trade is on edge following an Asia trade summit (that Pence attended in lieu of Trump).  Next week could be another interesting one for the world markets.