Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 374214 times)

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4750 on: November 04, 2018, 01:50:19 AM »
From the other side.

Korean DMZ being demined.
https://www.newsweek.com/are-koreas-finally-about-make-peace-us-helps-disarm-border-1188018

The talks between North and South Korea have nothing to do with Trump or any of his policies. But it's good to remind us all of Trump's admiration of a brutally murderous dictator.

Also sounds like the most progress in decades. Just enjoy the good news.

Perhaps. But I would suggest starting another thread  unless you are falsely attributing this to Trump, which it sure appears you are.

I've been around enough to know I'm not going to change your mind on the subject. I more or less posted for the thread lurkers who have doubts.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4751 on: November 04, 2018, 05:20:54 AM »
From the other side.

Korean DMZ being demined.
https://www.newsweek.com/are-koreas-finally-about-make-peace-us-helps-disarm-border-1188018

The talks between North and South Korea have nothing to do with Trump or any of his policies. But it's good to remind us all of Trump's admiration of a brutally murderous dictator.

Also sounds like the most progress in decades. Just enjoy the good news.

Perhaps. But I would suggest starting another thread  unless you are falsely attributing this to Trump, which it sure appears you are.

I've been around enough to know I'm not going to change your mind on the subject. I more or less posted for the thread lurkers who have doubts.

Doubts about what? Shouldn't you present actual avidence and facts for your claim? Maybe that will help all those lurkers wondering about the Korean talks and Trump's influence.

I do agree your presentation of your claim, void of evidence and facts, won't change my mind ( :
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 05:44:21 AM by MasterStache »

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4752 on: November 04, 2018, 06:50:14 AM »
From the other side.

Korean DMZ being demined.
https://www.newsweek.com/are-koreas-finally-about-make-peace-us-helps-disarm-border-1188018

The talks between North and South Korea have nothing to do with Trump or any of his policies. But it's good to remind us all of Trump's admiration of a brutally murderous dictator.

Also sounds like the most progress in decades. Just enjoy the good news.

Perhaps. But I would suggest starting another thread  unless you are falsely attributing this to Trump, which it sure appears you are.

I've been around enough to know I'm not going to change your mind on the subject. I more or less posted for the thread lurkers who have doubts.

Doubts about what? Shouldn't you present actual avidence and facts for your claim? Maybe that will help all those lurkers wondering about the Korean talks and Trump's influence.

I do agree your presentation of your claim, void of evidence and facts, won't change my mind ( :

The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans." Now you're saying he has had no part in the changes in foreign policy regarding North Korea. Therefore, Trump cannot be played by the North Koreans.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/how-donald-trump-got-played-by-a-ruthless-dictator-627798/

"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/

But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4753 on: November 04, 2018, 08:13:15 AM »
The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans."

I don't think Trump is being played by the North Koreans more than any other president has been.  NK has a long history of making promises, then changing their mind.  They seem to be doing the same with Trump.  Trump did give in to their demands earlier than other presidents, but I haven't seen anything of substance or import to come out of that.  Time will tell.


"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

I'll see your Washington Post article from October 3rd and raise you one from yesterday:

"North Korea has threatened to restart the development of its nuclear weapons program unless the United States lifts sanctions, underscoring one of the major potential stumbling blocks in Washington’s diplomatic outreach to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration has insisted that sanctions and other pressures remain on North Korea until it dismantles its nuclear program. Kim’s regime, however, has always demanded a step-by-step process of denuclearization that would include lifting U.S. sanctions along the way.

In the past month, Pyongyang has stepped up its calls for sanctions relief. The statement released late Friday by its Foreign Ministry is the latest indication that negotiations over the nuclear program have hit an impasse."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-threatens-to-restart-nuclear-program-unless-us-lifts-sanctions/2018/11/03/1e0b0f90-df63-11e8-aa33-53bad9a881e8_story.html?utm_term=.952dddf69fc4



Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/


I'll see your September 11 piece from 38 North, and raise you this one from October 22:

"Pyongyang appears to have made a potentially far-reaching, and possibly internally contentious, decision to put the question of sanctions squarely on the table at exactly the point US-DPRK negotiations are rapidly losing momentum. At first glance, this seems an effort to force Washington to realize that its current approach of what the North considers the US “all-take-but-no-give” attitude is driving the situation into a dangerous tailspin."
https://www.38north.org/2018/10/rcarlin102218/


But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

There has been little real progress with North Korea.  North Korea has a long history of making all sorts of promises to US presidents and great sounding plans for peace . . . and then backing out of them.  Until I actually see real and meaningful changes from NK, I'm not going to buy the claim that Trump is a negotiating genius who has solved the problem with his concessions.  I do wish him all the best in his efforts though.

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4754 on: November 04, 2018, 08:40:49 AM »
The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans."

I don't think Trump is being played by the North Koreans more than any other president has been.  NK has a long history of making promises, then changing their mind.  They seem to be doing the same with Trump.  Trump did give in to their demands earlier than other presidents, but I haven't seen anything of substance or import to come out of that.  Time will tell.


"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

I'll see your Washington Post article from October 3rd and raise you one from yesterday:

"North Korea has threatened to restart the development of its nuclear weapons program unless the United States lifts sanctions, underscoring one of the major potential stumbling blocks in Washington’s diplomatic outreach to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration has insisted that sanctions and other pressures remain on North Korea until it dismantles its nuclear program. Kim’s regime, however, has always demanded a step-by-step process of denuclearization that would include lifting U.S. sanctions along the way.

In the past month, Pyongyang has stepped up its calls for sanctions relief. The statement released late Friday by its Foreign Ministry is the latest indication that negotiations over the nuclear program have hit an impasse."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-threatens-to-restart-nuclear-program-unless-us-lifts-sanctions/2018/11/03/1e0b0f90-df63-11e8-aa33-53bad9a881e8_story.html?utm_term=.952dddf69fc4



Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/


I'll see your September 11 piece from 38 North, and raise you this one from October 22:

"Pyongyang appears to have made a potentially far-reaching, and possibly internally contentious, decision to put the question of sanctions squarely on the table at exactly the point US-DPRK negotiations are rapidly losing momentum. At first glance, this seems an effort to force Washington to realize that its current approach of what the North considers the US “all-take-but-no-give” attitude is driving the situation into a dangerous tailspin."
https://www.38north.org/2018/10/rcarlin102218/


But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

There has been little real progress with North Korea.  North Korea has a long history of making all sorts of promises to US presidents and great sounding plans for peace . . . and then backing out of them.  Until I actually see real and meaningful changes from NK, I'm not going to buy the claim that Trump is a negotiating genius who has solved the problem with his concessions.  I do wish him all the best in his efforts though.

So we're even on news articles. Yet the DMZ is being demined. Which is a tangible act. So which group of articles does that fit?

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4755 on: November 04, 2018, 08:43:26 AM »

So we're even on news articles. Yet the DMZ is being demined. Which is a tangible act. So which group of articles does that fit?


Depends which side you think is more likely to invade the other.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4756 on: November 04, 2018, 08:58:01 AM »
The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans."

I don't think Trump is being played by the North Koreans more than any other president has been.  NK has a long history of making promises, then changing their mind.  They seem to be doing the same with Trump.  Trump did give in to their demands earlier than other presidents, but I haven't seen anything of substance or import to come out of that.  Time will tell.


"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

I'll see your Washington Post article from October 3rd and raise you one from yesterday:

"North Korea has threatened to restart the development of its nuclear weapons program unless the United States lifts sanctions, underscoring one of the major potential stumbling blocks in Washington’s diplomatic outreach to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration has insisted that sanctions and other pressures remain on North Korea until it dismantles its nuclear program. Kim’s regime, however, has always demanded a step-by-step process of denuclearization that would include lifting U.S. sanctions along the way.

In the past month, Pyongyang has stepped up its calls for sanctions relief. The statement released late Friday by its Foreign Ministry is the latest indication that negotiations over the nuclear program have hit an impasse."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-threatens-to-restart-nuclear-program-unless-us-lifts-sanctions/2018/11/03/1e0b0f90-df63-11e8-aa33-53bad9a881e8_story.html?utm_term=.952dddf69fc4



Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/


I'll see your September 11 piece from 38 North, and raise you this one from October 22:

"Pyongyang appears to have made a potentially far-reaching, and possibly internally contentious, decision to put the question of sanctions squarely on the table at exactly the point US-DPRK negotiations are rapidly losing momentum. At first glance, this seems an effort to force Washington to realize that its current approach of what the North considers the US “all-take-but-no-give” attitude is driving the situation into a dangerous tailspin."
https://www.38north.org/2018/10/rcarlin102218/


But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

There has been little real progress with North Korea.  North Korea has a long history of making all sorts of promises to US presidents and great sounding plans for peace . . . and then backing out of them.  Until I actually see real and meaningful changes from NK, I'm not going to buy the claim that Trump is a negotiating genius who has solved the problem with his concessions.  I do wish him all the best in his efforts though.

So we're even on news articles. Yet the DMZ is being demined. Which is a tangible act. So which group of articles does that fit?

The de-mining of the DMZ is a tangible act . . . in the same way that President Obama negotiating the release of American journalists in 2009 was a tangible act.  It is tangible, but also trivial and of little real import.  Obama certainly wasn't a great success with NK even though he managed to negotiate this minor thing, and I don't think Trump is either.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4757 on: November 04, 2018, 12:11:21 PM »
The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans."

I don't think Trump is being played by the North Koreans more than any other president has been.  NK has a long history of making promises, then changing their mind.  They seem to be doing the same with Trump.  Trump did give in to their demands earlier than other presidents, but I haven't seen anything of substance or import to come out of that.  Time will tell.


"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

I'll see your Washington Post article from October 3rd and raise you one from yesterday:

"North Korea has threatened to restart the development of its nuclear weapons program unless the United States lifts sanctions, underscoring one of the major potential stumbling blocks in Washington’s diplomatic outreach to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration has insisted that sanctions and other pressures remain on North Korea until it dismantles its nuclear program. Kim’s regime, however, has always demanded a step-by-step process of denuclearization that would include lifting U.S. sanctions along the way.

In the past month, Pyongyang has stepped up its calls for sanctions relief. The statement released late Friday by its Foreign Ministry is the latest indication that negotiations over the nuclear program have hit an impasse."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-threatens-to-restart-nuclear-program-unless-us-lifts-sanctions/2018/11/03/1e0b0f90-df63-11e8-aa33-53bad9a881e8_story.html?utm_term=.952dddf69fc4



Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/


I'll see your September 11 piece from 38 North, and raise you this one from October 22:

"Pyongyang appears to have made a potentially far-reaching, and possibly internally contentious, decision to put the question of sanctions squarely on the table at exactly the point US-DPRK negotiations are rapidly losing momentum. At first glance, this seems an effort to force Washington to realize that its current approach of what the North considers the US “all-take-but-no-give” attitude is driving the situation into a dangerous tailspin."
https://www.38north.org/2018/10/rcarlin102218/


But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

There has been little real progress with North Korea.  North Korea has a long history of making all sorts of promises to US presidents and great sounding plans for peace . . . and then backing out of them.  Until I actually see real and meaningful changes from NK, I'm not going to buy the claim that Trump is a negotiating genius who has solved the problem with his concessions.  I do wish him all the best in his efforts though.

So we're even on news articles. Yet the DMZ is being demined. Which is a tangible act. So which group of articles does that fit?

Neither really. You are presenting a false dilemma. China has finally decided to uphold ongoing sanctions against NK when in the past they rarely upheld them. China accounts for some 90% of trade with NK. It would be disastrous economically for Kim to upset China.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24/china-upholds-un-sanctions-against-north-korea-trade-data-show
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-north-korea-relationship

Trump has boasted that his threat of military action has led to talks between the two. In reality it's just more of the same as past Presidents with some sprinkled in immature insults of course. The "elephant in the room" are China's actions, not Trump's rhetoric.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:47:57 PM by MasterStache »

sixwings

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4758 on: November 04, 2018, 06:07:47 PM »
The traditional approach of diplomacy where meeting the president was an award for doing what we ask. Trump did the opposite and met with them first. And now the DMZ is being demined.

The threats to restart the nuclear program are more psychological. They have also threatened to walk away before. They don't want to appear weak when history is written.

I'm guessing the narrative on this thread is "Trump is being played by the North Koreans."

I don't think Trump is being played by the North Koreans more than any other president has been.  NK has a long history of making promises, then changing their mind.  They seem to be doing the same with Trump.  Trump did give in to their demands earlier than other presidents, but I haven't seen anything of substance or import to come out of that.  Time will tell.


"Even some skeptics, though, acknowledge that the current dialogue has brought rewards in terms of an end to nuclear and missile testing and reduced tensions."(https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-pompeo-heads-for-pyongyang-north-korea-appears-to-raise-its-demands/2018/10/03/4729e588-c6f7-11e8-9158-09630a6d8725_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ed8eae313b27)

I'll see your Washington Post article from October 3rd and raise you one from yesterday:

"North Korea has threatened to restart the development of its nuclear weapons program unless the United States lifts sanctions, underscoring one of the major potential stumbling blocks in Washington’s diplomatic outreach to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

The Trump administration has insisted that sanctions and other pressures remain on North Korea until it dismantles its nuclear program. Kim’s regime, however, has always demanded a step-by-step process of denuclearization that would include lifting U.S. sanctions along the way.

In the past month, Pyongyang has stepped up its calls for sanctions relief. The statement released late Friday by its Foreign Ministry is the latest indication that negotiations over the nuclear program have hit an impasse."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korea-threatens-to-restart-nuclear-program-unless-us-lifts-sanctions/2018/11/03/1e0b0f90-df63-11e8-aa33-53bad9a881e8_story.html?utm_term=.952dddf69fc4



Morton Halperin who served Johnson, Nixon, Clinton and Obama administrations credits Trump with the improvements.
"Despite the criticism, a summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un was a smart way to resolve these fundamental issues and jumpstart a long and serious negotiation process." https://www.38north.org/2018/09/mhalperin091118/


I'll see your September 11 piece from 38 North, and raise you this one from October 22:

"Pyongyang appears to have made a potentially far-reaching, and possibly internally contentious, decision to put the question of sanctions squarely on the table at exactly the point US-DPRK negotiations are rapidly losing momentum. At first glance, this seems an effort to force Washington to realize that its current approach of what the North considers the US “all-take-but-no-give” attitude is driving the situation into a dangerous tailspin."
https://www.38north.org/2018/10/rcarlin102218/


But I am guessing none of this will change your mind. After all, experts in the field can be wrong and you know better. Hence why I was aiming for the thread lurkers.

There has been little real progress with North Korea.  North Korea has a long history of making all sorts of promises to US presidents and great sounding plans for peace . . . and then backing out of them.  Until I actually see real and meaningful changes from NK, I'm not going to buy the claim that Trump is a negotiating genius who has solved the problem with his concessions.  I do wish him all the best in his efforts though.

So we're even on news articles. Yet the DMZ is being demined. Which is a tangible act. So which group of articles does that fit?

Neither really. You are presenting a false dilemma. China has finally decided to uphold ongoing sanctions against NK when in the past they rarely upheld them. China accounts for some 90% of trade with NK. It would be disastrous economically for Kim to upset China.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24/china-upholds-un-sanctions-against-north-korea-trade-data-show
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-north-korea-relationship

Trump has boasted that his threat of military action has led to talks between the two. In reality it's just more of the same as past Presidents with some sprinkled in immature insults of course. The "elephant in the room" are China's actions, not Trump's rhetoric.

I find everything about Trump to be disgusting but it could probably be argued that Trump's tariffs are forcing China to uphold the NK sanctions. Now, whether using trade to try to solve the NK dilemna is good long term for the US is a different issue but Trump's not a long term thinker.

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4759 on: November 04, 2018, 07:01:41 PM »


I find everything about Trump to be disgusting but it could probably be argued that Trump's tariffs are forcing China to uphold the NK sanctions. Now, whether using trade to try to solve the NK dilemna is good long term for the US is a different issue but Trump's not a long term thinker.
[/quote]

I pointed out on one of the Tariff threads that the world will eventually run out of oil. Without a cheap energy source global shipping is going to be more expensive.

It looks like a good idea to simulate the crisis with tariffs rather than wait til the actual crisis arrives to rebuild our manufacturing base.

Whether that is Trump's actual plan or not can be debated. That is the way I'm framing the trade war problems.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4760 on: November 04, 2018, 07:23:27 PM »
Demining is a more significant act than releasing some prisoners, because both sides are making themselves more open to invasion from the other. It shows that trust has grown.

I believe that Trump meeting personally with Kim was significant because it showed respect, rather than just sending threats or a flunkie. DPRK is very conscious of its place on the world stage, I mean that's a good part of the reason it has nuclear weapons in the first place: DPRK wants to be taken seriously. Having your head of state meet theirs is taking them seriously.

Trump is a clown. But being able to give credit where credit is due is part of a productive political process, while painting this or that guy as someone wholly without sin or wholly without merit is simply more of the polarised nonsense that has done the US so much harm.

astvilla

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4761 on: November 04, 2018, 10:21:50 PM »
Demining is a more significant act than releasing some prisoners, because both sides are making themselves more open to invasion from the other. It shows that trust has grown.

I believe that Trump meeting personally with Kim was significant because it showed respect, rather than just sending threats or a flunkie. DPRK is very conscious of its place on the world stage, I mean that's a good part of the reason it has nuclear weapons in the first place: DPRK wants to be taken seriously. Having your head of state meet theirs is taking them seriously.

Trump is a clown. But being able to give credit where credit is due is part of a productive political process, while painting this or that guy as someone wholly without sin or wholly without merit is simply more of the polarised nonsense that has done the US so much harm.

I'm willing to take a chance on Trump's approach to North Korea and China as previous administrations didn't work out. I'm not an expert to say it works but I think Trump deserves some credit as tension has decreased dramatically. Especially given liberal media's portrayal of president and the current climate, I think liberal mainstream media is quite unfair and neocons also unfair. Trump is a unique character which is good and bad.

The whole Khashoggi affair, I do wonder, it isn't mentioned in media, but Trump's moves may have factored in North Korea's thinking. Of course, Obama overlooked rights abuses and crises out of strategic partnerships and overlooked abuses too, but less bluntly. I do wonder if Trump's handling of Saudi Khashoggi was also a message to Kim Jong Un, that the US can be a partner. North Korea has seen US in Iraq and Libya, now Iran, and is convinced nukes are necessary. Seeing Trump handle Khashoggi, similar to how North Korea would behave, may open the door to North Korea a little and dampen their concerns on their human rights abuses. Morally, it's reprehensible but you have to see the big picture of overall peace and improvement of human condition in North Korea. It may be a stretch but North Korea is playing China and US off each other and there's a miniscule chance North Korea could be flipped towards US more.

I've heard Kim Jong Un despises China for being used as a puppet. Also, northern China was part of Korea in ancient times and he sees that as ancestral Korean land. Xi Jinping also dislikes Kim Jong Un for destabilizing and pushing ROK/Japan closer to America orbit. Kim Jong Un hates China for trading and enriching his enemy, South Korea. The abandonnment of strict Communism has also left him stranded and he's forced to usher some reform in North Korea. Kim Jong Un also hates South Korea, even if harmless because its very existence threatens his rule, a shining light contrast to North's terror, darkness, and despair.

All I know is, North Korea cannot continue as it has been for another 100 years as the rest of the world moves forward. I just wonder if Kim will get overthrown by his own people if food security is met. By making sure his people are poor and starving, they cannot challenge his rule as they're too focused on finding their next meal. And reward those who keep others in line, like military and police. Brutal but effective way to keep your people in line. That and Kim's personal habits aren't gonna help him live longer. And his child will have to rule too, just babies, so maybe another 25 years at least before kids can take power? I don't know...but US will prob outlast North Korea assuming we don't destroy ourselves.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4762 on: November 05, 2018, 03:10:09 AM »
Especially given liberal media's portrayal of president and the current climate, I think liberal mainstream media is quite unfair and neocons also unfair. Trump is a unique character which is good and bad.
Unique? That's an interesting way to put it. I'd say it's mostly bad. Every president has overlooked rights abuses by Saudi. Also, facts aren't liberal or conservative.

The whole Khashoggi affair, I do wonder, it isn't mentioned in media, but Trump's moves may have factored in North Korea's thinking.
The Khashoggi affair? Dude... You make it sound like it was an embarrassing incident at the country club last Saturday evening. They didn't just kill a guy. He was cut up alive and then his body parts dissolved in acid. I think you give Trump too much credit for having any kind of thought, care or strategy at all.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4763 on: November 05, 2018, 05:03:18 AM »
I find everything about Trump to be disgusting but it could probably be argued that Trump's tariffs are forcing China to uphold the NK sanctions. Now, whether using trade to try to solve the NK dilemna is good long term for the US is a different issue but Trump's not a long term thinker.

I don't think that argument holds much merit. Th UN stepped up pressure on South Korea and China to uphold sanctions coupled with China's immediate reaction to the last missile test conducted by NK. Even China said essentially "ok you've gone a bit too far NK. Not cool!"

Also Trump didn't slap tariffs on China until July of this year. China started enforcing tougher sanctions against NK in 2017. Timelines don't exactly match up. Trumps tariffs were a result of what he deemed unfair trade pacts and job loss. Really nothing to do with not enforcing NK sanctions. Remember Trump himself boasted his threats are what led to where we are now as well.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 06:39:55 AM by MasterStache »

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4764 on: November 05, 2018, 04:08:26 PM »
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/wisconsin-conservative-admits-hed-shoot-sister-face-trump-know-passionate/?fbclid=IwAR0eFQBC_ho4ULHRcNenLs1Eoq7V3moI0frZSEoFEdZYW99LDcxGeOPLS48

That would make one's blood run cold the first time to hear your family say something like that. "Hey sis - I'll shoot you in the face b/c your politics are wrong..." WTH?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:45:40 PM by Just Joe »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4765 on: November 05, 2018, 05:10:02 PM »
Of course, while Trump has turned one possible war into peace with DPRK, he's also turned peace into a possible war with Iran. Credit where it's due, blame where it's due.

Iran has the capability to make nuclear weapons. DPRK actually has nuclear weapons. So for small countries unfriendly to the US, the moral of the story is... Don't mess around, just build it!

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4766 on: November 05, 2018, 06:46:14 PM »
I'm pretty sure that since so much of this geopolitical stuff is handled behind closed doors and by people we'll never know the names of, that whatever info is available to the public is simple there to accomplish some sort of purpose not totally known to us right now. To criticize moves as they happen seems as naive as jumping up and down in disbelief that a chess great had just lost (but actually sacrificed) his rook and thinking he is about to lose. I highly doubt anyone sitting behind a laptop or even writing for a paper has all the necessary info to make informed criticisms.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4767 on: November 05, 2018, 08:02:04 PM »
Of course, our political leaders are obviously much better informed than we are. Remember Iraq's WMDs?

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha
(gasp)
ahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4768 on: November 05, 2018, 08:29:32 PM »
I didn't say they were more informed. I'm just pointing out that bystanders probably aren't as informed as they think with regards to motives and the grand scheme. And as for the WMDs, of what consequence did nothing showing up have? Nothing happened to Condi, Powell, even Bush who is held in decent regard now. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but even with this example where our leaders appeared to have screwed up I'm pretty sure they got what they wanted and sent the signal they wanted to send.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4769 on: November 05, 2018, 09:14:30 PM »
They ended up with two useless losing foreign conflicts which have made it harder to get into useful winning foreign conflicts.

Obviously the leaders got away with it. They always do. The Japanese and German leaderships are a notable exception, but that was 73 years ago and hasn't happened since, and even then significant numbers got away with it.

Your mistake is assuming there is a grand scheme. Whenever old archives are opened it's obvious that leaders of all countries were just winging it; there is no reason to suppose that 2018 is any different in this regard to 1918. It's comforting to pretend to yourself there's a Grand Plan, but the truth is they're just muddling along. It was plain when Drumpf got elected, for example, that neither he nor his team had expected him to win. Thus the huge turnover in Cabinet, etc.

That's why they have political parties and ideology, so there's always another person or a book or manifesto or something to tell them what to do. The truth is they're muddling along.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4770 on: November 05, 2018, 10:04:59 PM »
I'm surprised Trump's mental health does not come up more frequently.  At his rallies, he speaks like a half drunk high school flunkie.  It's all emotional rhetoric, repetition, and pandering to what the audience (ostensibly) wants to hear.  Most of the time it is incoherent, wandering from one popular thing ... until the applause begins to get a little less after hitting the high hat a few times ... to the next.  It's not that it's not sound policy, it's that he is just going with his gut all the time which, to me, is a sign of having limited memory.  Does he not remember the early 80's when inflation was high and gas prices sucked for a while?  Does he not remember October 1987 when people jumped out of windows and capitalism looked like a sucker's game?  No government official every hung his hat on past success and said 'screw the rest of you' other than dictators, and America was founded on overthrowing a dictatorship. 

It was a sad day for me, when Republicans, which I sometimes voted for, started to make every decision a 'either you're with me, or you're un-American'.  G.W. Bush did that and I still wish we hadn't started the war in Iraq.  And that does not make me any less of an American, it makes me a free thinker that was right.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4771 on: November 05, 2018, 10:07:11 PM »
I didn't say they were more informed. I'm just pointing out that bystanders probably aren't as informed as they think with regards to motives and the grand scheme. And as for the WMDs, of what consequence did nothing showing up have? Nothing happened to Condi, Powell, even Bush who is held in decent regard now. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but even with this example where our leaders appeared to have screwed up I'm pretty sure they got what they wanted and sent the signal they wanted to send.

I know how you feel. I felt the same way when I was in The Sandbox in 2003. You have to believe that the people working for the government are smarter than you, more informed and have the maturity and experience to make hard decisions.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like this administration has chosen representatives to be those people. That the majority of career diplomats have left the State Department is telling methinks. And this article is from January.
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/369279-60-percent-of-state-depts-top-ranking-career-employees-have-left

sixwings

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4772 on: November 05, 2018, 10:30:22 PM »
Does he not remember the early 80's when inflation was high and gas prices sucked for a while?  Does he not remember October 1987 when people jumped out of windows and capitalism looked like a sucker's game?  No government official every hung his hat on past success and said 'screw the rest of you' other than dictators, and America was founded on overthrowing a dictatorship. 

Trump was born rich, so no, he doesn't remember inflation or the price of gas in 80's because he's never had to pay attention to that stuff.

But yes, Trump is legit crazy and has always been crazy. But the GOP and their voters don't care because he hates brown people too.

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4773 on: November 06, 2018, 03:24:15 AM »
I'm surprised Trump's mental health does not come up more frequently.  At his rallies, he speaks like a half drunk high school flunkie.  It's all emotional rhetoric, repetition, and pandering to what the audience (ostensibly) wants to hear.  Most of the time it is incoherent, wandering from one popular thing ... until the applause begins to get a little less after hitting the high hat a few times ... to the next.  It's not that it's not sound policy, it's that he is just going with his gut all the time which, to me, is a sign of having limited memory.  Does he not remember the early 80's when inflation was high and gas prices sucked for a while?  Does he not remember October 1987 when people jumped out of windows and capitalism looked like a sucker's game?  No government official every hung his hat on past success and said 'screw the rest of you' other than dictators, and America was founded on overthrowing a dictatorship. 
.

Dealing with some local people and the abhorrent reading comprehension regarding political topics means that these are perks and not drawbacks most of the time.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4774 on: November 06, 2018, 06:00:51 AM »
I didn't say they were more informed. I'm just pointing out that bystanders probably aren't as informed as they think with regards to motives and the grand scheme. And as for the WMDs, of what consequence did nothing showing up have? Nothing happened to Condi, Powell, even Bush who is held in decent regard now. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but even with this example where our leaders appeared to have screwed up I'm pretty sure they got what they wanted and sent the signal they wanted to send.

I certainly don't hold Bush in high regard, and I voted for him. In cases like this humans tend to have relatively short memories. Perhaps it's a bit different for me having served during Bush's term.

Unique User

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4775 on: November 06, 2018, 08:32:43 AM »
Just voted in NC - straight Democratic ticket for the first time in my life.  Be interesting to see what changes in the speculation based on what happens today. 

megaschnauzer

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4776 on: November 06, 2018, 09:23:28 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4777 on: November 06, 2018, 09:44:33 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

nick663

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4778 on: November 06, 2018, 09:47:14 AM »
Does he not remember the early 80's when inflation was high and gas prices sucked for a while?  Does he not remember October 1987 when people jumped out of windows and capitalism looked like a sucker's game?  No government official every hung his hat on past success and said 'screw the rest of you' other than dictators, and America was founded on overthrowing a dictatorship. 

Trump was born rich, so no, he doesn't remember inflation or the price of gas in 80's because he's never had to pay attention to that stuff.

But yes, Trump is legit crazy and has always been crazy. But the GOP and their voters don't care because he hates brown people too.
For some reason that statement reminded me of Bill Gates trying to guess prices of normal household items:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad_higXixRA

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4779 on: November 06, 2018, 09:47:31 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

I bet he voted to bring the McRib back. Ba-dum ching

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4780 on: November 06, 2018, 10:14:01 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

I bet he voted to bring the McRib back. Ba-dum ching
FTW.

But we can probably add any form of volunteer public service to that list. Can you imagine Trump in a jury deliberation?

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4781 on: November 06, 2018, 10:29:50 AM »
I’m curious now: where do you go to check someone’s voter record? I tried searching for myself an went down a rabbit hole of bullshit sites.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4782 on: November 06, 2018, 11:19:33 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

I received a mailer last week from some organization I'd never heard of that had my voting record dating back to 2008 on it. I was honestly surprised to learn that I'd not voted in the 2010 or 2014 midterms. But then I remember that I'd just moved to South Carolina in 2010, past the deadline for voter registration, and then the exact same thing happened again when I moved to Florida in October 2014. No way in hell I was going to skip this year's midterm. I voted last Friday. I doubt if Trump has the same excuse for his voting omissions.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4783 on: November 06, 2018, 11:22:18 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

I received a mailer last week from some organization I'd never heard of that had my voting record dating back to 2008 on it. I was honestly surprised to learn that I'd not voted in the 2010 or 2014 midterms. But then I remember that I'd just moved to South Carolina in 2010, past the deadline for voter registration, and then the exact same thing happened again when I moved to Florida in October 2014. No way in hell I was going to skip this year's midterm. I voted last Friday. I doubt if Trump has the same excuse for his voting omissions.

What the hell?  People can find out who you voted for in the US?  You don't have secret ballots?

wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4784 on: November 06, 2018, 11:28:17 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

I received a mailer last week from some organization I'd never heard of that had my voting record dating back to 2008 on it. I was honestly surprised to learn that I'd not voted in the 2010 or 2014 midterms. But then I remember that I'd just moved to South Carolina in 2010, past the deadline for voter registration, and then the exact same thing happened again when I moved to Florida in October 2014. No way in hell I was going to skip this year's midterm. I voted last Friday. I doubt if Trump has the same excuse for his voting omissions.

What the hell?  People can find out who you voted for in the US?  You don't have secret ballots?

Voting is controlled by the states, so maybe access varies by state.  For sure the parties must be able to access them.  I just received a mailer describing my voting history as well (I also forgot I didn't vote in one midterm, b/c of international travel).

I think the individual states keep records that the parties can access. That's how they can literally know which door of which house within a neighborhood to knock on when sending out their canvassers.  I am not sure your average citizen can readily access these records, however.

ETA: I'm not sure WHO you vote for is public record, but I know whether you voted is.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 11:29:53 AM by wenchsenior »

Xlar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4785 on: November 06, 2018, 11:29:17 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

I received a mailer last week from some organization I'd never heard of that had my voting record dating back to 2008 on it. I was honestly surprised to learn that I'd not voted in the 2010 or 2014 midterms. But then I remember that I'd just moved to South Carolina in 2010, past the deadline for voter registration, and then the exact same thing happened again when I moved to Florida in October 2014. No way in hell I was going to skip this year's midterm. I voted last Friday. I doubt if Trump has the same excuse for his voting omissions.

What the hell?  People can find out who you voted for in the US?  You don't have secret ballots?

No, not who you voted for. Just if you voted or not. But this is powerful information given how few people actually vote in the USA. You don't need to to get the majority of citizens in your region to vote for you, just the majority of voters. These two groups are often very different!

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4786 on: November 06, 2018, 11:34:35 AM »
i wonder if trump has ever voted.

According the Bob Woodward book, "Fear", when Trump was initially kicking around the idea of running for president and met with some GOP strategists, they told him he hadn't voted in most midterm elections that he was eligible to vote in during his life, and that this might pose a problem as a candidate. Trump refused to admit this was true until he was repeatedly told and shown that voting history is a public record. Initially, he didn't believe voting history is public. (But he apparently voted for president pretty consistently.)

Incidentally, the Woodward book made me think Trump is not nearly as dumb as he sounds 90% of the time, but he is staggeringly poorly informed.

I received a mailer last week from some organization I'd never heard of that had my voting record dating back to 2008 on it. I was honestly surprised to learn that I'd not voted in the 2010 or 2014 midterms. But then I remember that I'd just moved to South Carolina in 2010, past the deadline for voter registration, and then the exact same thing happened again when I moved to Florida in October 2014. No way in hell I was going to skip this year's midterm. I voted last Friday. I doubt if Trump has the same excuse for his voting omissions.

What the hell?  People can find out who you voted for in the US?  You don't have secret ballots?

No, not who you voted for. Just if you voted or not. But this is powerful information given how few people actually vote in the USA. You don't need to to get the majority of citizens in your region to vote for you, just the majority of voters. These two groups are often very different!
It's actually pretty easy to get. I found this one for my county in under a minute:
https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/elections/maps/voter-turnout.aspx

geekette

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4787 on: November 06, 2018, 11:53:41 AM »
AFAIK, voting is organized by county, so your best bet is to look up your county's board of elections to find the link to voting records.  They are just your name, address, affiliation, and if you voted.  Ours are definitely publicly accessible, but it's good to be able to make sure you're still registered, and where to vote.

We have mechanically counted paper ballots (fill in the bubble).  You give your name and address, get your ballot authorization, hand that over to a different person to get an unmarked ballot, which AFAIK, cannot be tracked back to your authorization.  You fill it out and put it directly into the machine that counts it.  The ballots drop into a locked box. 

I can't imagine who thought touch screens with no paper back up were a good idea, but there are several states that have those.  Crazy.

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4788 on: November 06, 2018, 12:04:16 PM »
Yes, the key is you can see if someone voted.  You cannot see who they voted for.  Big difference, and not one that most rational people should raise any concerns about.  I do admit I am one who likes the ID of a mandatory voting requirement being put in place, so I would likely be less concerned if people saw that I voted then someone who for some reason does not want to.  I honestly never understood the desire not to.  This is one of the greatest rights we have as a citizenry and why you would not exercise it every time is beyond me.  Perhaps my view if because most of my family members came from countries that they could not vote in, so I get that this is not a given.  Then again, my dad was one of those people who came from the Communist bloc, has become a citizen and then never votes.  I argue with him about it all the time.  He grumbles a lot, but never votes.

geekette

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4789 on: November 06, 2018, 12:11:16 PM »
There's an excellent rebroadcast of a podcast on voting in the deep south in the not too distant past (in my freakin' lifetime!) on the Memory Palace.

In Line

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4790 on: November 06, 2018, 12:57:48 PM »
Maybe there is something weird about my county/state. I’ve tried several permutations of keyword searches and can only find info on voter registration, not on voting record.

geekette

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4791 on: November 06, 2018, 04:07:59 PM »
Maybe it's not available online in CA, but if it is, it's probably here - https://voterstatus.sos.ca.gov

The website that linked to that site stated "Voter participation history information is available to the public via the Secretary of State website on the My Voter Status webpage at https://voterstatus.sos.ca.gov/."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 04:10:04 PM by geekette »

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4792 on: November 06, 2018, 11:03:55 PM »
Based on tonight's election results, the future of a Trump presidency is about to get a whole lot more interesting.  You thought things were bad before?

I expect that democrats in control of the House or Representatives will mean we'll all get to see Trump's tax returns.  I expect that republicans widening their margin in the Senate means that judicial nominees and cabinet positions will all sail through their confirmation hearings without so much as a burble, which may encourage Trump to appoint some truly outrageously inappropriate people.  Can Ivanka be Secretary of Interior?

So far, the midterms are turning out to look a whole lot like the 2016 election:  the majority of the people in the country vote for democrats, and yet republicans get to be in charge because white people living in rural areas get a larger say in our government than brown people living in cities.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4793 on: November 07, 2018, 12:37:25 AM »
So far, the midterms are turning out to look a whole lot like the 2016 election:  the majority of the people in the country vote for democrats, and yet republicans get to be in charge because white people living in rural areas get a larger say in our government than brown people living in cities.

I feel you Sol.

I'm happy with the election results in my state. I'm still surprised (maybe not?) with the difference in votes casts vs number of elgible voters. Also wondering about how many local and state level seats gained by Democrats?

Heitcamp lost, oh well. But Manchin won. Yay and fuck Joe Manchin. I hope he doesn't take this as a sign to run for president.

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4794 on: November 07, 2018, 03:48:46 AM »
Based on tonight's election results, the future of a Trump presidency is about to get a whole lot more interesting.  You thought things were bad before?

I expect that democrats in control of the House or Representatives will mean we'll all get to see Trump's tax returns.  I expect that republicans widening their margin in the Senate means that judicial nominees and cabinet positions will all sail through their confirmation hearings without so much as a burble, which may encourage Trump to appoint some truly outrageously inappropriate people.  Can Ivanka be Secretary of Interior?

So far, the midterms are turning out to look a whole lot like the 2016 election:  the majority of the people in the country vote for democrats, and yet republicans get to be in charge because white people living in rural areas get a larger say in our government than brown people living in cities.

https://www.thirty-thousand.org

Best solution for that.

hoping2retire35

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4795 on: November 07, 2018, 06:02:52 AM »
I think it is a little odd that people get so worked up about the "popular vote." Even though Republicans controlled the House through most of Obamas presidency. 'Oh, it was the gerrymandering.' Bull; lots of states have strong Democratic parties and representation, that is not all Republicans just working the system, they are just not that good.

Who knows, maybe D-districts are typically 90% for their party while R-districts are 55/45% because Democrats can only tolerate to be around one another while Republicans enjoy diversity. Just a thought.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4796 on: November 07, 2018, 06:26:16 AM »
I think it is a little odd that people get so worked up about the "popular vote." Even though Republicans controlled the House through most of Obamas presidency. 'Oh, it was the gerrymandering.' Bull; lots of states have strong Democratic parties and representation, that is not all Republicans just working the system, they are just not that good.

Who knows, maybe D-districts are typically 90% for their party while R-districts are 55/45% because Democrats can only tolerate to be around one another while Republicans enjoy diversity. Just a thought.

Who knows, maybe Democrats care for community and neighbours while Republicans are selfish.  Just a thought.

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4797 on: November 07, 2018, 07:05:48 AM »
I think it is a little odd that people get so worked up about the "popular vote." Even though Republicans controlled the House through most of Obamas presidency. 'Oh, it was the gerrymandering.' Bull; lots of states have strong Democratic parties and representation, that is not all Republicans just working the system, they are just not that good.

Who knows, maybe D-districts are typically 90% for their party while R-districts are 55/45% because Democrats can only tolerate to be around one another while Republicans enjoy diversity. Just a thought.

lol wut?

Are you saying gerrymandering doesn't exist?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4798 on: November 07, 2018, 07:07:23 AM »
I think it is a little odd that people get so worked up about the "popular vote." Even though Republicans controlled the House through most of Obamas presidency. 'Oh, it was the gerrymandering.' Bull; lots of states have strong Democratic parties and representation, that is not all Republicans just working the system, they are just not that good.

The heart of the argument is a core belief held by many that government should reflect the will of the will of the people.  It's reflected in the mantra " government of the people, by the people, for the people" first spoken by Abraham Lincoln.  The reality is that the method which was developed to select our leaders allows at times for those with minority support to obtain and retain power. When candidates win elections with a minority of votes repeatedly the question arises about whether this is truly a reflection of the will of the constituents. 

Who knows, maybe D-districts are typically 90% for their party while R-districts are 55/45% because Democrats can only tolerate to be around one another while Republicans enjoy diversity. Just a thought.
While possible (though I think unlikely based on personal experience) it is irrelevant to the issue above. From a representitive standpoint, it doesn't matter whether there are pockets where the populace will support only one candidate or party; what matters is whether government as a whole reflects the broader breakdown of its citizens.
We also do not have to 'guess' about how supportive various groups are of their party and of individual candidates. That information is readily available for all states, counties and districts, and can (and has) been dissected a hundred different ways. The short summary is that both parties enjoy regions where they have overwhelming support, and citizens within those regions are intolerant of the political contrarian view.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4799 on: November 07, 2018, 07:24:55 AM »
I'm hearing a lot of disappointment about how the democrats performed last night, but they should be ecstatic that Florida has restored voting rights to felons. 


I haven't been following that voter initiative very closely, but I'm curious why people think this would necessarily help democrats in future elections.

FWIW, I've never the logic behind denying a convicted felon the ability to vote after they have served out their sentence.