Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 374252 times)

Barbaebigode

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4550 on: October 26, 2018, 12:47:45 PM »
My biggest question about these 12 (at last count) mail bombs: Why didn't a single one go off?

It sounds like they were legit pipe bombs, but without automatic detonation triggers.  Like they needed to be manually detonated.

Also in the news:  The dude is a registered republican from Florida who owns a van covered in Trump/Pence stickers.  So much for the idea that this was all a liberal plot.



That just shows that the liberal conspiracy is even more sophisticated than we thought :(

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4551 on: October 26, 2018, 12:47:54 PM »
There's no place in a democracy for attempted assassinations of a political party's leaders.  I don't care how strongly you object to their policies, the opposing party is not your enemy and violence against them is repugnant and criminal.

(and yes, I feel the same way about wackos who target GOP figures, like that a-hole who shot up a bunch of GOP house members in 2017 at a friendly baseball game)

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4552 on: October 26, 2018, 12:51:57 PM »
(and yes, I feel the same way about wackos who target GOP figures, like that a-hole who shot up a bunch of GOP house members in 2017 at a friendly baseball game)

When you put it that way, suddenly I think it's only a matter of time before the NRA releases a statement saying the magabomber has a constitutionally protected right to own pipe bombs and that this tragedy was the result of inadequate mental health screening.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4553 on: October 26, 2018, 12:55:28 PM »
(and yes, I feel the same way about wackos who target GOP figures, like that a-hole who shot up a bunch of GOP house members in 2017 at a friendly baseball game)

When you put it that way, suddenly I think it's only a matter of time before the NRA releases a statement saying the magabomber has a constitutionally protected right to own pipe bombs and that this tragedy was the result of inadequate mental health screening.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

I'm going to go with LONE WOLF.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4554 on: October 26, 2018, 01:00:40 PM »
(and yes, I feel the same way about wackos who target GOP figures, like that a-hole who shot up a bunch of GOP house members in 2017 at a friendly baseball game)

When you put it that way, suddenly I think it's only a matter of time before the NRA releases a statement saying the magabomber has a constitutionally protected right to own pipe bombs and that this tragedy was the result of inadequate mental health screening.

Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4555 on: October 26, 2018, 01:14:13 PM »
(and yes, I feel the same way about wackos who target GOP figures, like that a-hole who shot up a bunch of GOP house members in 2017 at a friendly baseball game)

When you put it that way, suddenly I think it's only a matter of time before the NRA releases a statement saying the magabomber has a constitutionally protected right to own pipe bombs and that this tragedy was the result of inadequate mental health screening.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

I'm going to go with LONE WOLF.

there may still be some room to eek some conspiracy out of this. While I suspect lone wolf will ultimately prevail, I suspect a strong undercurrent for PATSY.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4556 on: October 26, 2018, 01:20:30 PM »
Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

To the NRA they are totally different, because only one of them is a multi billion dollar industry.  Let's take a moment to remind everyone that the NRA is a manufacturing industry lobbyist group started by firearm manufacturers for the purpose of selling more firearms.  No one profits from DIY guns or pipebombs, so the NRA doesn't usually promote those.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

You think they give a rat's ass about such hypocrisy?  They didn't seem to care about blaming mental health screenings for the baseball game shooting, or the recent Florida shooting.  I found it only slightly hilarious that Trump blames mental health screening for mass shootings, and yet celebrated signing a law making it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns.  Any time someone whips out the "mental health" card in a gun control argument, you can remind them that republicans support giving guns to the mentally ill.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4557 on: October 26, 2018, 01:26:34 PM »
That van is nuts. I mean, there are some nutty ass people out there, but fucking wow. From what I've read, some of those bombs could have gone off from simply handling, its a miracle they didn't go off in a facility or in a postworker's hands. I wonder if there was a flaw in assembly. If he wanted to scare them he could have just sent fake bombs.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4558 on: October 26, 2018, 01:30:30 PM »
Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

To the NRA they are totally different, because only one of them is a multi billion dollar industry.  Let's take a moment to remind everyone that the NRA is a manufacturing industry lobbyist group started by firearm manufacturers for the purpose of selling more firearms.  No one profits from DIY guns or pipebombs, so the NRA doesn't usually promote those.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

You think they give a rat's ass about such hypocrisy?  They didn't seem to care about blaming mental health screenings for the baseball game shooting, or the recent Florida shooting.  I found it only slightly hilarious that Trump blames mental health screening for mass shootings, and yet celebrated signing a law making it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns.  Any time someone whips out the "mental health" card in a gun control argument, you can remind them that republicans support giving guns to the mentally ill.

I have yet to see anyone going to a pipe bomb range for entertainment purposes either...it's not exactly a valid comparison.  There's no sporting event, competition, or hunting purpose that I can think of involving pipe bombs.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4559 on: October 26, 2018, 01:34:48 PM »
there may still be some room to eek some conspiracy out of this. While I suspect lone wolf will ultimately prevail, I suspect a strong undercurrent for PATSY.

I'm not sure why people try so hard to distort things.  Why is this one so hard to believe?  The current president has done everything possible to get Americans to hate each other.  He stokes racial and political divides, and has openly encouraged his supporters to pursue violence against his opponents on multiple occasions.  One of his supporters took him up on it, and got caught.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to put together the motive history here.

Then the highlight of MY day, Jess Sessions goes on tv and says he has no idea why anyone would think that Trump encouraging violence against the media or against democrats would cause someone to attempt violence against the media or against democrats.  Jeff Sessions, the same man that Trump  regularly pit roasts on a stick.  Jeff Sessions, the man Trump says will be fired after the mid terms.

This is all just distraction, though.  I think the magabomber will be a footnote forgotten in 48 hours, just like how nobody ever asks about Trump's tax returns anymore, or reminds him of his birtherism or the time he insulted gold star families and war heroes, or the pussy grabbing or the cheating on his post-partum wife with a porn star.  He'll manufacture some new scandal and tweet about how the MS-13 caravan was paid for by 17 angry democrats and only Kanye knows the real secret of Benghazi.  No Collusion! 

Nothing sticks to Trump anymore because he's already fully covered in scandal, and I think it will take historians several generations to finally unpack all of the layers of corruption he has brought to the most powerful office in the world.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4560 on: October 26, 2018, 01:39:31 PM »
there may still be some room to eek some conspiracy out of this. While I suspect lone wolf will ultimately prevail, I suspect a strong undercurrent for PATSY.

I'm not sure why people try so hard to distort things.  Why is this one so hard to believe?  The current president has done everything possible to get Americans to hate each other.  He stokes racial and political divides, and has openly encouraged his supporters to pursue violence against his opponents on multiple occasions.  One of his supporters took him up on it, and got caught.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to put together the motive history here.

Then the highlight of MY day, Jess Sessions goes on tv and says he has no idea why anyone would think that Trump encouraging violence against the media or against democrats would cause someone to attempt violence against the media or against democrats.  Jeff Sessions, the same man that Trump  regularly pit roasts on a stick.  Jeff Sessions, the man Trump says will be fired after the mid terms.

This is all just distraction, though.  I think the magabomber will be a footnote forgotten in 48 hours, just like how nobody ever asks about Trump's tax returns anymore, or reminds him of his birtherism or the time he insulted gold star families and war heroes, or the pussy grabbing or the cheating on his post-partum wife with a porn star.  He'll manufacture some new scandal and tweet about how the MS-13 caravan was paid for by 17 angry democrats and only Kanye knows the real secret of Benghazi.  No Collusion! 

Nothing sticks to Trump anymore because he's already fully covered in scandal, and I think it will take historians several generations to finally unpack all of the layers of corruption he has brought to the most powerful office in the world.

We have fodder for decades of investigative journalism, that's for sure.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4561 on: October 26, 2018, 01:40:20 PM »
Bomb count now stands at 13 - this one mailed to Kamala D. Harris. 
Cory Booker hasn't yet been targeted, just guessing he's on the list.  And Pelosi?

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4562 on: October 26, 2018, 01:42:23 PM »
Cory Booker hasn't yet been targeted, just guessing he's on the list.  And Pelosi?

Booker got his this morning, he was number 11.  Pelosi's must still be in the mail.

I'm still waiting to hear when Rosie O'Donnell gets hers. 

At this point it's become a badge of honor.  Elizabeth Warren is probably furious she didn't get one.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4563 on: October 26, 2018, 01:54:59 PM »
there may still be some room to eek some conspiracy out of this. While I suspect lone wolf will ultimately prevail, I suspect a strong undercurrent for PATSY.

...
Nothing sticks to Trump anymore because he's already fully covered in scandal, and I think it will take historians several generations to finally unpack all of the layers of corruption he has brought to the most powerful office in the world.

We have fodder for decades of investigative journalism, that's for sure.

I was thinking about this yesterday.  I doubt it will take generations.  I think a ton of people will start to talk either when a) Trump passes away or b) Trump is no longer in office. I think there will be a dam-breaking moment when everyone from current aids to former business parters currently kept mum with ND agreements or hopes that staying close to them will progress their agenda will suddenly rush to tell the world what life was like 'under Trump'.  Given his age, I'm guessing this will happen within 10 years, and possibly much sooner.  Should he get nailed with any criminal conviction all the dirty water will quickly bubble to the surface.

Sure, he may control what the WH aids can say about him, but there are dozens of GOP legislators and scores of lobbyists who are only 'bound' to him because they want their agenda passed. 

I'm struggling to see what Trump's end-game might be here. Right now his businesses are propped up by those wanting to be in his good graces and as long as he is president the GOP has his back, but what happens after he leaves office? Why would the Saudi's book events at his hotel when no longer is a conduit to government? Why would the GOP continue to defend and deny evidence of his worst impulses? What will keep foreign leaders from dumping on him post-office?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4564 on: October 26, 2018, 03:24:24 PM »
Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

To the NRA they are totally different, because only one of them is a multi billion dollar industry.  Let's take a moment to remind everyone that the NRA is a manufacturing industry lobbyist group started by firearm manufacturers for the purpose of selling more firearms.  No one profits from DIY guns or pipebombs, so the NRA doesn't usually promote those.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

You think they give a rat's ass about such hypocrisy?  They didn't seem to care about blaming mental health screenings for the baseball game shooting, or the recent Florida shooting.  I found it only slightly hilarious that Trump blames mental health screening for mass shootings, and yet celebrated signing a law making it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns.  Any time someone whips out the "mental health" card in a gun control argument, you can remind them that republicans support giving guns to the mentally ill.

I have yet to see anyone going to a pipe bomb range for entertainment purposes either...it's not exactly a valid comparison.  There's no sporting event, competition, or hunting purpose that I can think of involving pipe bombs.

I would go to a pipe bomb range.  Blowing stuff up is pretty awesome.  My deviant childhood involved learning how to modify firecrackers to go all at once and blow small craters in the forest floor.  Ironically, my friends and I used to do this while out (ostensibly) hunting partirdge . . . so it is obviously more fun than shooting stuff with a boring old rifle.  :P

fuzzy math

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4565 on: October 26, 2018, 04:49:56 PM »
there may still be some room to eek some conspiracy out of this. While I suspect lone wolf will ultimately prevail, I suspect a strong undercurrent for PATSY.

I'm not sure why people try so hard to distort things.  Why is this one so hard to believe?  The current president has done everything possible to get Americans to hate each other.  He stokes racial and political divides, and has openly encouraged his supporters to pursue violence against his opponents on multiple occasions.  One of his supporters took him up on it, and got caught.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to put together the motive history here.

Then the highlight of MY day, Jess Sessions goes on tv and says he has no idea why anyone would think that Trump encouraging violence against the media or against democrats would cause someone to attempt violence against the media or against democrats.  Jeff Sessions, the same man that Trump  regularly pit roasts on a stick.  Jeff Sessions, the man Trump says will be fired after the mid terms.

It’s not hard to believe if you’re not chugging the koolaid. Who on this board is distorting things?

And you have to remember that for old Jeffy even once he’s fired and further disgraced, he still wins(!!!) if his BS talking points translate into wins at the polls. He’s self sacrificing for the greater gop good.


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nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4566 on: October 26, 2018, 05:14:13 PM »
moving off the MAGAbomber for a bit -

Gingrich says that whether or not Kavanaugh blocks Democrat's access to Trump's tax records will be a good "test" of whether "it was worth it".


Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4567 on: October 26, 2018, 05:17:47 PM »
moving off the MAGAbomber for a bit -

Gingrich says that whether or not Kavanaugh blocks Democrat's access to Trump's tax records will be a good "test" of whether "it was worth it".
MAGA!

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4568 on: October 26, 2018, 05:19:17 PM »
Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

To the NRA they are totally different, because only one of them is a multi billion dollar industry.  Let's take a moment to remind everyone that the NRA is a manufacturing industry lobbyist group started by firearm manufacturers for the purpose of selling more firearms.  No one profits from DIY guns or pipebombs, so the NRA doesn't usually promote those.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

You think they give a rat's ass about such hypocrisy?  They didn't seem to care about blaming mental health screenings for the baseball game shooting, or the recent Florida shooting.  I found it only slightly hilarious that Trump blames mental health screening for mass shootings, and yet celebrated signing a law making it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns.  Any time someone whips out the "mental health" card in a gun control argument, you can remind them that republicans support giving guns to the mentally ill.

I have yet to see anyone going to a pipe bomb range for entertainment purposes either...it's not exactly a valid comparison.  There's no sporting event, competition, or hunting purpose that I can think of involving pipe bombs.

I would go to a pipe bomb range.  Blowing stuff up is pretty awesome.  My deviant childhood involved learning how to modify firecrackers to go all at once and blow small craters in the forest floor.  Ironically, my friends and I used to do this while out (ostensibly) hunting partirdge . . . so it is obviously more fun than shooting stuff with a boring old rifle.  :P

Pretty sure you can use pipe bombs to 'catch' fish as well.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4569 on: October 26, 2018, 05:21:04 PM »
Don't be ridiculous.  An explosive that propels bits of metal with the intent to kill/main is totally different to the NRA than an explosive that propels bits of metal down a barrel with the intent to kill/main.

To the NRA they are totally different, because only one of them is a multi billion dollar industry.  Let's take a moment to remind everyone that the NRA is a manufacturing industry lobbyist group started by firearm manufacturers for the purpose of selling more firearms.  No one profits from DIY guns or pipebombs, so the NRA doesn't usually promote those.

Wrong. They can't mention mental health, lest they address the fact that they advocate for the mentally ill being able to own weapons. And Obamacare sanctioned mental health coverage is not a good republican talking point.

You think they give a rat's ass about such hypocrisy?  They didn't seem to care about blaming mental health screenings for the baseball game shooting, or the recent Florida shooting.  I found it only slightly hilarious that Trump blames mental health screening for mass shootings, and yet celebrated signing a law making it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns.  Any time someone whips out the "mental health" card in a gun control argument, you can remind them that republicans support giving guns to the mentally ill.

I have yet to see anyone going to a pipe bomb range for entertainment purposes either...it's not exactly a valid comparison.  There's no sporting event, competition, or hunting purpose that I can think of involving pipe bombs.

Pipe bomb range, 4th of July... same same in some neighborhoods.

See also: http://www.minotdailynews.com/news/local-news/2018/09/darvey-cox-stanley-accused-of-making-pipe-bomb-for-fourth-of-july/

http://www.wesa.fm/post/i-am-scared-city-officials-prepare-first-4th-july-legal-fireworks#stream/0

and less convincingly:
https://keystonefireworks.com/shop/pipe-bombs/
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 05:23:18 PM by Glenstache »

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4570 on: October 26, 2018, 06:03:22 PM »
I know there's often no logic in the actions of a madman... but the more I think about it the less I understand the MAGAbomber's approach.
In no particular order...
  • Why did Maxine Waters get two bombs when everyone else (including Obama and HRC) get only one?
  • Why send them all out over a ~5 day period?  I mean, as soon as the first few were discovered you'd think there'd be a lookout for any others.
  • De Niro?  Really??  I mean, he's been a vocal critic, but hardly part of the Democrat machinery.  You could put 50 other celebs on that list, so what made him stand out?
  • How did he not get pulled repeatedly with stickers covering all his windows?

Other bits that confuse me:
  • the DOJ says the charges on Cesar Sayoc carry a maximum sentence of 48 years.  I hope that's just on initial charges, and not what he'll actually face for attempting to kill 12 people in five states.
  • Why does putting extra postage on something make it 'harder to track'? (something news reports keep saying).
  • What's with the white powder and why did none of the bombs explode en-route? Are these fakes, or was he either very good or very bad at making bombs? 



Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4571 on: October 26, 2018, 06:33:25 PM »
what happens after he leaves office? Why would the Saudi's book events at his hotel when no longer is a conduit to government? Why would the GOP continue to defend and deny evidence of his worst impulses? What will keep foreign leaders from dumping on him post-office?
You're assuming he'll ever leave office. He's going to be re-elected in 2020, and probably even before then there'll be talk of pushing through an amendment allowing him to go for more terms. Whether that gets through is another matter, but it'll get started, at least.


In any case, former Presidents have some influence still. Whoever you are, if a former US President rings you up, you take their call.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4572 on: October 26, 2018, 06:53:16 PM »
So what is it going to take for the "War on Terror" to focus on the domestic terrorists who support Trump by trying to assassinate his political rivals? 

The Unabomber was labelled a terrorist without any delay, what's taking so long with the MAGAbomber?


Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4573 on: October 26, 2018, 07:02:17 PM »
Come on, Sol. You had some very bad people making bombs, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4574 on: October 27, 2018, 01:12:10 AM »
what happens after he leaves office? Why would the Saudi's book events at his hotel when no longer is a conduit to government? Why would the GOP continue to defend and deny evidence of his worst impulses? What will keep foreign leaders from dumping on him post-office?
You're assuming he'll ever leave office. He's going to be re-elected in 2020, and probably even before then there'll be talk of pushing through an amendment allowing him to go for more terms. Whether that gets through is another matter, but it'll get started, at least.


I don't understand why this even gets brought up. Ain't ever going to happen. Hasn't even been discussed seriously by anyone, nor will it. It requires an amendment to the Constitution, not an executive order. Trump will be in his eigties if he manages to get the amendment overturned, at which time Obama will immediately stand up and annihilate him. By his second term end the GOP will probably breathe a big sigh of relief and hibernate for the next 8 years till Ryan or another Bush make a serious a run for it.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4575 on: October 27, 2018, 06:53:35 AM »
what happens after he leaves office? Why would the Saudi's book events at his hotel when no longer is a conduit to government? Why would the GOP continue to defend and deny evidence of his worst impulses? What will keep foreign leaders from dumping on him post-office?
You're assuming he'll ever leave office. He's going to be re-elected in 2020, and probably even before then there'll be talk of pushing through an amendment allowing him to go for more terms. Whether that gets through is another matter, but it'll get started, at least.

We've had this discussion before, Kyle.  A President cannot 'push through' a constitutional amendment the way they could a regular law (and it should be noted that Trump has been below average at even getting his bills through congress).  It takes the vote of 67 senators (currently the GOP has just 51) and 290 congressmen (they have 248 are almost certainly going to lose seats in two weeks).  It's such an intentionally high bar that even proposals which feature broad bipartisan support have not made it through the process.

Regardless, whether he's reelected (even repeatedly) doesn't change my hypothesis - he'll eventually die and probably in much less time than in a generation.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4576 on: October 27, 2018, 08:17:44 AM »
what happens after he leaves office? Why would the Saudi's book events at his hotel when no longer is a conduit to government? Why would the GOP continue to defend and deny evidence of his worst impulses? What will keep foreign leaders from dumping on him post-office?
You're assuming he'll ever leave office. He's going to be re-elected in 2020, and probably even before then there'll be talk of pushing through an amendment allowing him to go for more terms. Whether that gets through is another matter, but it'll get started, at least.


I don't understand why this even gets brought up. Ain't ever going to happen. Hasn't even been discussed seriously by anyone, nor will it. It requires an amendment to the Constitution, not an executive order. Trump will be in his eigties if he manages to get the amendment overturned, at which time Obama will immediately stand up and annihilate him. By his second term end the GOP will probably breathe a big sigh of relief and hibernate for the next 8 years till Ryan or another Bush make a serious a run for it.

I third this. Kyle, you have a lot of very insightful posts but the insistence that Trump will continue his presidency indefinitely got pretty annoying around the 30th time. It's not going to happen and in the extremely unlikely case that everything necessary for it to happen falls into line you can give us all a big "I told you so" then.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4577 on: October 27, 2018, 08:55:03 AM »
I simply cannot believe how much Trump has doubled down on the press as a result of this. It is like gaslighting/victim blaming 101. Jeebus.

I particularly enjoyed the exchange where he blamed CNN for inciting divisions and supporting violence, and someone immediately retweeted the time Trump sent out that WWE video of himself bodyslamming a guy with the CNN logo superimposed on his face.
Or the photos of people at his rallies wearing shirts with the words "Rope. Journalist. Tree. Some assembly required." While this isn't the majority of people at his rallies, the stories are not about how his supporters are rejecting those views, that's for sure. It is disgusting and unamerican (in the sense of marching towards gross infringement of the 1st amendment).


Even if you reject these views, at some point in time you have to take a long, hard look at yourself and ask what it is about the person that you are supporting that is so appealing to so many people that do hold these views.

Sugaree

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4578 on: October 27, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »
My biggest question about these 12 (at last count) mail bombs: Why didn't a single one go off?

It sounds like they were legit pipe bombs, but without automatic detonation triggers.  Like they needed to be manually detonated.

Also in the news:  The dude is a registered republican from Florida who owns a van covered in Trump/Pence stickers.  So much for the idea that this was all a liberal plot.


You would think so, but I've already heard several people say that the stickers look too new and shiny and that we should be checking out this guy's bank account (presumably for a payment from Soros?).  Nevermind the fact that this guy has a conviction for a bomb threat from 2002.  The mental gymnastics must be exhausting. 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4579 on: October 27, 2018, 10:45:56 AM »
We've had this discussion before, Kyle.  A President cannot 'push through' a constitutional amendment the way they could a regular law (and it should be noted that Trump has been below average at even getting his bills through congress).  It takes the vote of 67 senators (currently the GOP has just 51) and 290 congressmen (they have 248 are almost certainly going to lose seats in two weeks).  It's such an intentionally high bar that even proposals which feature broad bipartisan support have not made it through the process.

I give Kyle more credit, because I give Trump more credit.  Everyone who is saying this can never happen are playing by the old rules, where things like the Constitution still matter.  Trump is blatantly in violation of the Constitution already, taking direct payments from foreign governments.

If he lives long enough to want to run for a third term, there will be no push for a constitutional amendment.  He doesn't need one.  He'll just run for a third term, and what are you going to do about it?  If republicans still control a simple majority of congress, they'll just refuse to notice.  The supreme court will decline to hear any challenges.  Democrats have zero power right now, and Trump can pretty much do whatever he wants to, Constitution be damned.

Trump doesn't follow rules.  It's illegal to grab a woman by the pussy too, but he did it and he bragged about it and he still gets to be president.  It's illegal to launder money for the russian mob, but he did it and he got away with it and he still gets to be president.  It's illegal to take bribes from the saudis, but he's still doing it and he still gets to be president.  Until republicans in congress choose to oppose him, or lose their majority, Trump is immune.  He can murder his family on live television.  He can dissolve CNN by executive order.  He can run for a third term.  There are no limits anymore.  Trump's entire life has been built around the idea of figuring out which rules can be bent and which can be broken, and as long as republicans control congress and back him, every rule can be broken.

This is how dictators rise to power in third world shitholes.  They don't dissolve their legislatures, they just pacify them enough to get tacit support.  They don't overturn the courts, they stack them.  Then once they've silenced any substantive opposition, they start pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with, until one day they have been in power for 30 years and find a way to "legally" install their favored son as their replacement in office with rigged elections and total control of the media.

Adam Zapple

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4580 on: October 27, 2018, 10:47:40 AM »
My biggest question about these 12 (at last count) mail bombs: Why didn't a single one go off?

It sounds like they were legit pipe bombs, but without automatic detonation triggers.  Like they needed to be manually detonated.

Also in the news:  The dude is a registered republican from Florida who owns a van covered in Trump/Pence stickers.  So much for the idea that this was all a liberal plot.


You would think so, but I've already heard several people say that the stickers look too new and shiny and that we should be checking out this guy's bank account (presumably for a payment from Soros?).  Nevermind the fact that this guy has a conviction for a bomb threat from 2002.  The mental gymnastics must be exhausting.

Then they picked a good target to pin this whole thing on!!!

(I'm not a conspiracy theorist but sometimes play one on the internet)

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4581 on: October 27, 2018, 01:10:47 PM »
It seems odd that someone who wants trump and his agenda to be sucessful would mail these bombs before an election... as it is eroding support for republican candidates who might foil the blue wave. Again, if one were a logical maga bomber the bombs would hit the mail after the election.

Also, i keep seeing that the suspect was a registered democrat until march of 2016. Is there a source that refutes this explicitly?

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4582 on: October 27, 2018, 01:14:48 PM »
Then they picked a good target to pin this whole thing on!!!

(I'm not a conspiracy theorist but sometimes play one on the internet)

The news is doing a pretty decent job of swatting down the false flag theories, I think.  There is video of the MAGAbomber attending a Trump rally.  There are interviews with people who knew him and can attest to his Trump love.  It sure looks like he's a legitimate Trump terrorist.

I mean I guess the really die hard conspiracy folks will posit that this is an elaborate multi-year scheme with this guy playing the part of a Trumpista for years to establish his back story, all with the apparent intention of getting caught and going to jail for life just to influence the election.  They made similarly elaborate claims about the Sandy Hook shooting victims being paid actors, and the 9/11 attacks being an inside job, and the moon landings being filmed on a sound stage.  If you're crazy enough you can believe anything, I suppose, but this particular domestic terrorist is going to be hard to pawn off as a patsy or a plant.

So where does that leave Trump?  I see two possible paths forward.  He can denounce this guy and try to blame mental health screenings or something, or he can embrace this guy.  Other dictators on the rise have successfully legitimized violence in support of their cause, which is literally how we got fascism the last time around.  Trump could argue that trying to kill the people he was calling "evil" just last week is totally acceptable.  Germany successfully legitimized fascist beatings by suggesting the fascists roaming the streets at night were actually putting down angry mobs.  "Angry mob" is another term Trump has recently taken a real fondness to.  Coincidence?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 01:43:02 PM by sol »

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4583 on: October 27, 2018, 01:16:31 PM »
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/police-responding-active-shooter-pittsburgh-synagogue/story?id=58790381

Quote
When asked about whether the nation's gun laws should be changed, Trump said the synagogue should have had armed security there.

"You want protection, and they didnít have any protection, they had a maniac walk in," Trump said. "The results could have been much better."

He said that before getting into office, he would think "what a shame, what a shame" when incidents like this one unfolded.

"Itís even tougher when youíre the president of the United States and you have to watch this thing happen," Trump said.

I suppose his next jobs program is to ensure every movie theater, church, school, hospital, restaurant, library, park and sidewalk is protected by an armed guard. Because the problem is of course not enough people with guns. Send the kids to school with guns. Arm the nurses and doctors. Bring back corporal punishment and have teachers pistol whip the kids when they act up and shoot em when they start shooting each other.

I wonder how countries that banned guns even handle all the criminal masterminds shooting up all the public places. Since only the criminals can get guns while every law abiding citizen is a sitting duck, places like Australia or England probably have twice as many shootings right? Like  2 a week?

This is getting disgusting... Hope and prayers though.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4584 on: October 27, 2018, 01:21:21 PM »
Also, i keep seeing that the suspect was a registered democrat until march of 2016. Is there a source that refutes this explicitly?

That's not how it works. The better question is, is there a verifiable and legitimate source that claims that he was a registered Democrat?

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4585 on: October 27, 2018, 01:35:44 PM »
Also, i keep seeing that the suspect was a registered democrat until march of 2016. Is there a source that refutes this explicitly?

That's not how it works. The better question is, is there a verifiable and legitimate source that claims that he was a registered Democrat?

Sometimes people assemble a list of common falsehoods and refute them. What ive seen is the mainstream media sources indicate he is currently a registered republican, which could be an incomplete truth.

Trump himself has been a registered Democrat which clearly didnt preclude him from conducting the crazy train, so it may be irrelevant even if this guy did change his party as recently as 2016

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4586 on: October 27, 2018, 01:48:12 PM »
Sometimes people assemble a list of common falsehoods and refute them.

Sometimes people assemble lists of outrageous claims and then posit they must be true until they are refuted.  Can you prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that Mike Pence doesn't eat babies?  Because I'm just going to go ahead and assume he's a baby eater until you show me otherwise.

The king of this game?  Donald Trump himself, who posited that Obama was a secret Kenyan Muslim and ineligible to be President because he wasn't a US citizen.  He repeated that lie hundreds of times, saying "show me the birth certificate" as his way of demanding proof, but it was never really about proof, or truth, it was always just about planting the idea in people's heads.  Even when he was shown the birth certificate he didn't accept it as legitimate.  Show me the long form birth certificate!  That's not enough either, show me the concurrent newspaper announcement of his birth in Hawaii!  That's not enough either, it's all a vast left wing conspiracy designed to manufacture the evidence I demanded, he's still a secret Muslim Kenyan!  Oh, and Ted Cruz's dad killed JFK, go ahead and prove me wrong.

The evidence isn't relevant to these people.  They don't even care if they are eventually proven wrong, because in the meantime they've steered the national conversation between serious adults to be all about the details of Mike Pence's baby-eating habit.  Five years later you produce proof that Pence has never eaten a single baby, and but in the meantime you got five years and multiple elections worth of voters not sure whether or not he still eats babies, or used to eat babies but gave it up, or only eats abandoned babies that were going to waste anyway, or just hangs out with other known baby-eaters but isn't actually a baby-eater himself.  Who knows?  Can you refute it for me explicitly?  Don't forget to vote next week!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 02:23:17 PM by sol »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4587 on: October 27, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
People have been saying, and I mean very good people (the best really) that Mike Pence eats babies.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4588 on: October 27, 2018, 02:06:21 PM »
The craziness of the current bomber is as relevant to Trump's policies as the craziness of the Unabomber is to environmentalism.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4589 on: October 27, 2018, 02:21:27 PM »
The craziness of the current bomber is as relevant to Trump's policies as the craziness of the Unabomber is to environmentalism.

The key distinction here is that no environmentalist politician ever held hundreds of nationally televised rallies where he told his followers to attack somebody, or offered to pay for their legal defense if they attacked somebody, or commended someone for committing an act of violence against his opponents, or said his opponents were "evil" and "ruining America" and "have to be stopped."
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 02:26:22 PM by sol »

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4590 on: October 27, 2018, 02:30:39 PM »
The craziness of the current bomber is as relevant to Trump's policies as the craziness of the Unabomber is to environmentalism.

The key distinction here is that no environmentalist politician ever went on national television and told his followers to attack somebody, or pay for their legal defense if they attacked somebody, or said his opponents were "evil" and "ruining America" and "have to be stopped."
One can find terrible and untrue things said by politicians on each "side" about the "other side". 

I think most who post regularly here decry the concept of negative political ads and would prefer a discussion on the merits.  Or maybe not - unfortunately, enough people are swayed by those ads that the practice continues.


shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4591 on: October 27, 2018, 02:52:24 PM »
The craziness of the current bomber is as relevant to Trump's policies as the craziness of the Unabomber is to environmentalism.

The key distinction here is that no environmentalist politician ever went on national television and told his followers to attack somebody, or pay for their legal defense if they attacked somebody, or said his opponents were "evil" and "ruining America" and "have to be stopped."
One can find terrible and untrue things said by politicians on each "side" about the "other side". 

I think most who post regularly here decry the concept of negative political ads and would prefer a discussion on the merits.  Or maybe not - unfortunately, enough people are swayed by those ads that the practice continues.

Why the switch to generalities at this point in the conversation?  Couldn't find any examples of environmentalist politicians inciting violence like Trump does?  Maybe because they don't exist and your just trying to play the "both sides" game?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4592 on: October 27, 2018, 02:56:57 PM »
The craziness of the current bomber is as relevant to Trump's policies as the craziness of the Unabomber is to environmentalism.


He hasn't directly told people to send pipe bombs to those who criticize him.  That is true.  Trump has made his views condoning violence pretty clear though:

Encouraging violence against reporters:
"Any guy who can do a body slam, he is my type!" - referencing Greg Gianforte after his attack on a reporter

Encouraging violence against protesters:
"If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell ... I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise, I promise," - talking to crowds at a rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

"I'd like to punch him in the face, I'll tell you." - Talking about a protester who was being removed from a rally in Las Vegas.

"Get him out. Try not to hurt him. But if you do, I'll defend you in court. Don't worry about it." - Talking about a protester at a rally in Warren, Michigan.

Encouraging violence by police officers:
"When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. I said, 'Please donít be too nice,'"

"When you guys put somebody in the car and youíre protecting their head you know, the way you put their hand over [their head].  "Like, 'Donít hit their head and theyíve just killed somebody, donít hit their head.' I said, 'You can take the hand away, OK?'




Comments Trump has made on the people the bombs were sent to:

The media in general:
"The FAKE NEWS media is not my enemy. It is the enemy of the American people.Ē  - via twitter

George Soros:
ďThe very rude elevator screamers are paid professionals only looking to make Senators look bad. Donít fall for it! Also, look at all of the professionally made identical signs. Paid for by Soros and others. These are not signs made in the basement from love! #Troublemakers.Ē  - via twitter about Kavenaugh's confirmation protests

Obama:
"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"

"Is it legal for a sitting President to be "wire tapping" a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!"

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!"

Hillary Clinton:
ďI think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons.  I think they should disarm. Immediately.  Letís see what happens to her. Take their guns away, O.K. Itíll be very dangerous.Ē

Eric Holder:
"Holder is ó he's got some problems."

Maxine Waters:
"Congresswoman Maxine Waters, an extraordinarily low IQ person, has become, together with Nancy Pelosi, the Face of the Democrat Party. She has just called for harm to supporters, of which there are many, of the Make America Great Again movement. Be careful what you wish for Max!"

John Brennan:
"loudmouth, partisan, political hack who cannot be trusted with the secrets of our country."

Joe Biden:
"Crazy Joe Biden is trying to act like a tough guy. Actually, he is weak, both mentally and physically, and yet he threatens me, for the second time, with physical assault. He doesn't know me, but he would go down fast and hard, crying all the way. "

De Niro:
"Robert De Niro, a very Low IQ individual, has received to (sic) many shots to the head by real boxers in movies. I watched him last night and truly believe he may be 'punch-drunk.' I guess he doesn't realize the economy is the best it's ever been with employment being at an all time high, and many companies pouring back into our country. Wake up Punchy!"

James Clapper:
"New Bombshell in the Obama Spying Scandal. Did other Agencies SPY on Trump Campaign?Ē Even Clapper, worlds dumbest former Intelligence Head, who has the problem of lying a lot, used the word SPY when describing the illegal activities!"

Cory Booker:
"Take a look at Cory Booker.  He ran Newark, New Jersey into the ground. He was a horrible mayor. And he made statements that when he was in high school or college, what he was doing Ė he actually made the statements."

Kamala Harris:
"@SenKamalaHarris why are you supporting the animals of MS-13?"

Tom Steyer:
"Wacky & totally unhinged Tom Steyer, who has been fighting me and my Make America Great Again agenda from beginning, never wins elections!"



I'd argue that the craziness of the current bomber is directly linked to the language that Trump uses.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4593 on: October 27, 2018, 03:16:33 PM »

I give Kyle more credit, because I give Trump more credit.  Everyone who is saying this can never happen are playing by the old rules, where things like the Constitution still matter.  Trump is blatantly in violation of the Constitution already, taking direct payments from foreign governments.

If he lives long enough to want to run for a third term, there will be no push for a constitutional amendment.  He doesn't need one.  He'll just run for a third term, and what are you going to do about it?  If republicans still control a simple majority of congress, they'll just refuse to notice.  The supreme court will decline to hear any challenges.  Democrats have zero power right now, and Trump can pretty much do whatever he wants to, Constitution be damned.
...

I don't see it that way, Sol.  Oh, I agree that the political norms don't apply to Trump, and that most scandals which would have sunk other politicians just blend in with all the other muck that's covering him.  You can't dirty a pig...

But could Trump just sidestep the constitution and get a 3rd term?  I don't see how.  The rise of other dictatorships happens when the dictator in question is initially very popular, controls the military and where the courts are either non-existent or won't step in.  Trump fails the broad popularity test, and his initial cabinet stacked with generals has seen them flee or get mired in scandals. As for the courts? Even the longer-serving conservative judges seem not to like him (though they're unwilling to say so publicly).  Roberts hates how politicized Trump and McConnell made confirmations. Alito is a self-described 'practical originalist' and defers to what's strictly laid out in the constitution.

What's more, I'm skeptical that either the GOP *or Trump himself* wants him to stick around. They got most of what they could out of him in the first 2 years, while enduring an onslaught of easily avoidable scandals. In short, it hasn't been fun for them, and while they won't say it publicly most would have loved just about any other GOP

It's pretty far down the list, but Trump doesn't even have the mechanism to be on the ballot for an illegal 3rd term. Federal elections are always administered by state and local governments. There's always a handful of 'red' states and swing states that have Dem governors, including (at present) Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Louisiana, plus massively blue states like California and NY.  No way a 3rd term candidate even gets on the ballot in those states.  You can't win if you aren't on the ballot, and you can't order the military to seize the country when even the generals who work for you are calling you an 'idiot' behind closed doors, and you won't get massive crowds supporting you in every city when your UNpopularity numbers hover around 60%.

No, this whole idea seems to me to a poorly conceived B-movie plot. 

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4594 on: October 27, 2018, 03:18:41 PM »
Sol mentioned something about the last time fascism happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/27/pittsburgh-police-responding-active-shooting-squirrel-hill-area/?utm_term=.53c5231cfefa

I can't believe all the winning. Are we great yet?

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4595 on: October 27, 2018, 03:25:25 PM »
Why the switch to generalities at this point in the conversation?  Couldn't find any examples of environmentalist politicians inciting violence like Trump does?  Maybe because they don't exist and your just trying to play the "both sides" game?
Because using the actions of a crazy person to denigrate anything said person may support is sophistry, regardless of which side does it.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4596 on: October 27, 2018, 03:37:40 PM »
Why the switch to generalities at this point in the conversation?  Couldn't find any examples of environmentalist politicians inciting violence like Trump does?  Maybe because they don't exist and your just trying to play the "both sides" game?
Because using the actions of a crazy person to denigrate anything said person may support is sophistry, regardless of which side does it.

Interesting point of view.

Not only did people denigrate him, but Charles Manson served time for multiple homicides that he wasn't physically present for, performed by his supporters.  His supporters were 'crazy' by just about any definition of the word I've ever heard.  Did Manson deserve to do jail time for the murders committed by crazy people?  The legal system decided an emphatic 'Yes'.  You appear to be arguing that he should not have been accountable . . . because 'crazy people'.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4597 on: October 27, 2018, 03:46:38 PM »
This is a study done on Trump anti muslim tweets and hate crimes. Of course this kind of study can only be correlational not causal, but it is disturbing non the less. I think because he is the president, and he also has known far right people in his administration (formerly Bannon, currently Steven Miller) that these people feel that Trump endorse their beliefs and actions.
Antisemitic hate crimes are also up since Trump's campaign and presidency.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-trump-tweets-spur-hate-crimes1/
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 03:48:11 PM by partgypsy »

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4598 on: October 27, 2018, 03:52:44 PM »
Why the switch to generalities at this point in the conversation?  Couldn't find any examples of environmentalist politicians inciting violence like Trump does?  Maybe because they don't exist and your just trying to play the "both sides" game?
Because using the actions of a crazy person to denigrate anything said person may support is sophistry, regardless of which side does it.

Interesting point of view.

Not only did people denigrate him, but Charles Manson served time for multiple homicides that he wasn't physically present for, performed by his supporters.  His supporters were 'crazy' by just about any definition of the word I've ever heard.  Did Manson deserve to do jail time for the murders committed by crazy people?  The legal system decided an emphatic 'Yes'.  You appear to be arguing that he should not have been accountable . . . because 'crazy people'.
You may be misreading. 

Yes, we can let the legal system deal with the issue of accountability for what the crazy person had done himself.

What I'm saying is that "we know environmentalists are wrong: just look at the Unabomber" is just as sophistic as "we know Republicans are wrong: just look at the current bomber."

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4599 on: October 27, 2018, 04:08:15 PM »
What I'm saying is that "we know environmentalists are wrong: just look at the Unabomber" is just as sophistic as "we know Republicans are wrong: just look at the current bomber."

I think I can see what you're attempting philisophically but I don't think the reality agrees. It's a slow road and I don't want to end up where it takes us if this is how the trip starts.