Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 35194 times)

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #450 on: October 08, 2017, 02:35:08 PM »
More of what the Trump Presidency is about. Not a lot of protest against this sort of thing, I guess because they aren't rich black athletes kneeling for a cause.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/10/07/richard-spencer-leads-another-torchlight-march-in-charlottesville/?utm_term=.418964ffcd30

There now appears to be verifiable proof that Spencer and Stephen Miller, Trumps personal anti-Muslim crusader, were  tight when they were both at Duke University, a decade ago. Shocking eh?  Senior level trump staff pals with a Neo-Nazi.

Barbaebigode

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #451 on: October 09, 2017, 07:08:49 AM »

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #452 on: October 09, 2017, 07:52:20 AM »
The future is renewable energy, even if you deny climate change.  Guess the fuel lobby pays well.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #453 on: October 09, 2017, 09:28:30 AM »
Another outcome of this presidency:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/oct/09/trumps-plan-to-bail-out-failing-fossil-fuels-with-taxpayer-subsidies-is-perverse

Apparently the goverment can choose winners and losers, after all.

I wonder if Trump will try to block the Musk-Puerto Rico solar power push.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #454 on: October 09, 2017, 10:16:14 AM »
Another outcome of this presidency:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/oct/09/trumps-plan-to-bail-out-failing-fossil-fuels-with-taxpayer-subsidies-is-perverse

Apparently the goverment can choose winners and losers, after all.

I wonder if Trump will try to block the Musk-Puerto Rico solar power push.

I don't know if he *can* block it. But I'd bet money on him taking time out of his busy golf schedule to bad-mouth it on Twitter.
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infogoon

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #455 on: October 09, 2017, 11:57:14 AM »
I really enjoyed the Mike Pence protest protest yesterday. What a good use of tax dollars by the Party Of Fiscal Responsibility(tm).


ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #456 on: October 09, 2017, 12:05:41 PM »
I really enjoyed the Mike Pence protest protest yesterday. What a good use of tax dollars by the Party Of Fiscal Responsibility(tm).

Another childish act, planned and scripted.

Are you upset about Pence using tax payer dollars to buy the tickets, or are you concerned about the security expenses? because thier's no evidence of the former and the latter is pretty par for the course for politicians of thier level.

DoubleDown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #457 on: October 09, 2017, 12:34:03 PM »
Are you upset about Pence using tax payer dollars to buy the tickets, or are you concerned about the security expenses? because thier's no evidence of the former and the latter is pretty par for the course for politicians of thier level.

I thought so too, at first, until I saw on the news this morning that Pence flew on Air Force Two all the way from Las Vegas to Indiana to stand for the anthem, then left and flew all the way back to Los Angeles knowing full well beforehand that some players would sit out. Obviously with the entire security and support entourage in tow, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #458 on: October 09, 2017, 12:40:40 PM »
It was a stupid, juvenile stunt.

But Trump's base will eat that shit up.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #459 on: October 09, 2017, 07:51:32 PM »
It was a stupid, juvenile stunt.

But Trump's base will eat that shit up.

Did not think Pence would do something like this - from little that I know about his past, he seemed pretty decent person. I guess when you sign up as the VP, you become that person too.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #460 on: October 10, 2017, 06:44:53 AM »
It was a stupid, juvenile stunt.

But Trump's base will eat that shit up.

Did not think Pence would do something like this - from little that I know about his past, he seemed pretty decent person. I guess when you sign up as the VP, you become that person too.

Seriously?  Pence has the potential to be quite a bit more dangerous than trump. He is a competent, ethically bankrupt Evangelical jihadist. He led a totally criminal effort to disenfranchise tens of thousands of voters, using his state police force as part of the unconstitutional and illegal maneuver. He abandoned Indiana's industrial wasteland, just east of Chicago, where children live in completely toxic public housing, in criminally unfit conditions, since they are not "supporters" of his. (As in, Black, and unlikely to vote for right wing extremists) Had he not attached himself to dopey's ass, he would of been out of a job, since the majority of Indiana residents couldn't stand him. The more you know about this chucklenut, the more you hope that dopey remains in power, as he totally destroys the party, and hope that he doesn't take the rest of us out in WW3. Pence is about as far right as it gets, and would be totally happy as the leader of an authoritarian Theocracy, which is what he, and fellow scum like DeVos, dream of. These are people that refuse funding for things like Head start, since it cannot be used to brainwash our nation's youth into being good little Evangelicals. Dopey is a clueless, malignant Narcissist who believes in nothing but himself, and keeping his followers happy, so they adore him. Pence is exponentially more dangerous. Pence has rigid beliefs that do not represent the vast majority of Americans, and the drive and intelligence to at least be partially successful, in his quest to make us an extremely right leaning, Christian extremist controlled nation.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:07:43 AM by paddedhat »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #461 on: October 10, 2017, 06:56:21 AM »
When I read the headline this morning that Trump was challenging Tillerson to an IQ test, I immediately thought 'Dunning Kruger'.  This article from Bloomberg in May popped up when I searched a bit and hits it right on the nose.

Quote
And Trump’s assumptions of expertise go beyond ordinary appliances and policy issues. He recently advised the Navy on how to improve aircraft carrier technology: “It sounded bad to me. Digital. They have digital. What is digital? And it’s very complicated, you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.”

So, by this point, we know the guy is incompetent.  He has demonstrated that he is unaware of important aspects of world history and unable to grasp most of the present, and doesn't have any talent toward leading a team or accomplishing a fixed goal.  We can also surmise that he is ignorant to the fact that he is unaware of his own limitations.  Isn't this a textbook case of being unfit for office?  Hasn't enough evidence piled up to make a case? 

In nature, Trump would be a free radical in an ortherwise healthy organism that ping pongs around randomly until it causes cancer.   
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #462 on: October 10, 2017, 07:10:26 AM »
Someone on the internet complaining about Dunning-Krueger in the President is pretty funny. How much do you know about military procurement, digital vs. steam catapults, etc?

The Ford is more than 3 years behind schedule and billions over budget, in part because of all the new tech they are trying to cram into it, some of which is that new-fangled electro-magnetic launch system. Unless you have a lot of industry experience (and who knows, maybe you might), Trump is more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #463 on: October 10, 2017, 07:46:10 AM »
It was a stupid, juvenile stunt.

But Trump's base will eat that shit up.

Did not think Pence would do something like this - from little that I know about his past, he seemed pretty decent person. I guess when you sign up as the VP, you become that person too.

Seriously?  Pence has the potential to be quite a bit more dangerous than trump. He is a competent, ethically bankrupt Evangelical jihadist. He led a totally criminal effort to disenfranchise tens of thousands of voters, using his state police force as part of the unconstitutional and illegal maneuver. He abandoned Indiana's industrial wasteland, just east of Chicago, where children live in completely toxic public housing, in criminally unfit conditions, since they are not "supporters" of his. (As in, Black, and unlikely to vote for right wing extremists) Had he not attached himself to dopey's ass, he would of been out of a job, since the majority of Indiana residents couldn't stand him. The more you know about this chucklenut, the more you hope that dopey remains in power, as he totally destroys the party, and hope that he doesn't take the rest of us out in WW3. Pence is about as far right as it gets, and would be totally happy as the leader of an authoritarian Theocracy, which is what he, and fellow scum like DeVos, dream of. These are people that refuse funding for things like Head start, since it cannot be used to brainwash our nation's youth into being good little Evangelicals. Dopey is a clueless, malignant Narcissist who believes in nothing but himself, and keeping his followers happy, so they adore him. Pence is exponentially more dangerous. Pence has rigid beliefs that do not represent the vast majority of Americans, and the drive and intelligence to at least be partially successful, in his quest to make us an extremely right leaning, Christian extremist controlled nation.

Like I said:  "from little that I know about his past"....

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #464 on: October 10, 2017, 07:52:09 AM »
Someone on the internet complaining about Dunning-Krueger in the President is pretty funny. How much do you know about military procurement, digital vs. steam catapults, etc?

The Ford is more than 3 years behind schedule and billions over budget, in part because of all the new tech they are trying to cram into it, some of which is that new-fangled electro-magnetic launch system. Unless you have a lot of industry experience (and who knows, maybe you might), Trump is more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.

[[citation needed]]


Given the president's tendency to both lie outright ( https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html ) and his demonstrated lack of understanding on a variety of issues ( https://www.vox.com/2017/7/20/16003218/trump-nyt-interview-ignorance , https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/donald-trump-ignorance-health-care-mitch-mcconnell, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/08/donald-trumps-ignorance-evident-by-the-day) your extraordinary claim that he is more knowledgeable about any subject than the average person on the internet really needs some proof to back it up.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #465 on: October 10, 2017, 08:21:07 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

StarBright

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #466 on: October 10, 2017, 08:21:40 AM »
It was a stupid, juvenile stunt.

But Trump's base will eat that shit up.

Did not think Pence would do something like this - from little that I know about his past, he seemed pretty decent person. I guess when you sign up as the VP, you become that person too.

Seriously?  Pence has the potential to be quite a bit more dangerous than trump. He is a competent, ethically bankrupt Evangelical jihadist. He led a totally criminal effort to disenfranchise tens of thousands of voters, using his state police force as part of the unconstitutional and illegal maneuver. He abandoned Indiana's industrial wasteland, just east of Chicago, where children live in completely toxic public housing, in criminally unfit conditions, since they are not "supporters" of his. (As in, Black, and unlikely to vote for right wing extremists) Had he not attached himself to dopey's ass, he would of been out of a job, since the majority of Indiana residents couldn't stand him. The more you know about this chucklenut, the more you hope that dopey remains in power, as he totally destroys the party, and hope that he doesn't take the rest of us out in WW3. Pence is about as far right as it gets, and would be totally happy as the leader of an authoritarian Theocracy, which is what he, and fellow scum like DeVos, dream of. These are people that refuse funding for things like Head start, since it cannot be used to brainwash our nation's youth into being good little Evangelicals. Dopey is a clueless, malignant Narcissist who believes in nothing but himself, and keeping his followers happy, so they adore him. Pence is exponentially more dangerous. Pence has rigid beliefs that do not represent the vast majority of Americans, and the drive and intelligence to at least be partially successful, in his quest to make us an extremely right leaning, Christian extremist controlled nation.

As someone who grew up in Indy and still has most of my family there I second all of this. Getting the VP slot was the best thing to happen to Pence, as his political career in Indiana was basically done. I know more than one republican who had an "anyone but Pence" sign in their yard.

In a period of like two years he accidentally created an HIV epidemic because he had moral issues with a clean needle program, decided last minute to put the kibosh on a universal Pre-K program (with basically no strings-attached federal funds) because of bad optics with his base, signed RFRA (the religious freedom restoration act) which prompted a major loss of convention business and corporations actually decided not to open up offices in the state capitol, and signed an insane anti-abortion bill which could accidentally criminalize miscarriages (if taken to an extreme) and charge doctors with manslaughter if they performed an abortive procedure that didn't check a draconian list of boxes. He was hurting the state on the national stage in a big way and hurting many citizens (particularly students, minorities, and people dealing with addictions) in a very real every day way.

I also remember listening to his radio show as a kid and it was the first place I ever heard about the "New World Order" - Pence is definitely interested in a Theocracy.


Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #467 on: October 10, 2017, 08:24:06 AM »
Someone on the internet complaining about Dunning-Krueger in the President is pretty funny. How much do you know about military procurement, digital vs. steam catapults, etc?

The Ford is more than 3 years behind schedule and billions over budget, in part because of all the new tech they are trying to cram into it, some of which is that new-fangled electro-magnetic launch system. Unless you have a lot of industry experience (and who knows, maybe you might), Trump is more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.
You don't need to be knowledgeable about a topic to see when someone is being effected by Dunning-Kruger. Is this what you're suggesting?

When he uses incorrect terminology and a sentence structure that bounces around incoherently it's not too much of a stretch to say that he doesn't have a firm grasp on the topic at hand.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #468 on: October 10, 2017, 08:42:37 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet.

Normally, I'd agree with you.  Trump is not a normal president.  He's displayed remarkable ability to remain uniformed regarding the things he speaks about both while running as a candidate and through his presidency.

To pick a single example at random . . . Remember when Trump was pretending that the British were spying on him because Obama asked them to?  The man who has full access to the information provided by the FBI and CIA chose instead to make stuff up . . . yet demonstrated less knowledge of British espionage activities than the average internet commenter.

Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #469 on: October 10, 2017, 08:53:01 AM »
Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.


I don't think anyone here is saying that they have more info than the president. They're saying that the president lacks enough info to make informed statements or decisions, yet pretends he's an expert at everything.
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #470 on: October 10, 2017, 08:55:44 AM »
Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.


I don't think anyone here is saying that they have more info than the president. They're saying that the president lacks enough info to make informed statements or decisions, yet pretends he's an expert at everything.

The president has access to far more information that the average person, but has demonstrated a lack of interest in using it to educate himself regarding the issues he speaks about.  Therefore, his knowledge of anything should be suspect.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 09:06:46 AM by GuitarStv »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #471 on: October 10, 2017, 09:04:41 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the a sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.


FTFY.

Unfortunately, it just so happens that at the moment, the sitting president is part of the other 5%.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #472 on: October 10, 2017, 09:06:14 AM »
Someone on the internet complaining about Dunning-Krueger in the President is pretty funny. How much do you know about military procurement, digital vs. steam catapults, etc?

The Ford is more than 3 years behind schedule and billions over budget, in part because of all the new tech they are trying to cram into it, some of which is that new-fangled electro-magnetic launch system. Unless you have a lot of industry experience (and who knows, maybe you might), Trump is more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.
Here's someone else who seems to think Trump may be influenced by the Dunning-Kruger effect. I'm pretty sure this guy knows what that means.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-supporters-dunning-kruger-effect-213904

ETA: Just in case you don't want to click on the article, it's written by David Dunning of Dunning-Kruger.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:22:53 AM by Dabnasty »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #473 on: October 10, 2017, 09:56:30 AM »
Someone on the internet complaining about Dunning-Krueger in the President is pretty funny. How much do you know about military procurement, digital vs. steam catapults, etc?
...
Unless you have a lot of industry experience (and who knows, maybe you might), Trump is more knowledgeable about the subject than you are.

I know that I have limitations when it comes to knowledge and expertise on military technology, but I at least know that digital (in a general sense) is a necessary aspect of montoring and control for something like an aircraft carrier.  That's just common sense, at least to most people I know (granted, maybe not indicative of 'the general population'). 

So to come to the conclusion that Trump is more knowledgable than I am after reading his statement (“It sounded bad to me. Digital. They have digital. What is digital? And it’s very complicated, you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.”) is ridiculous to assume, IMHO.

But it does help me understand the blind devotion that some folks want to have for President Trump.  I mean, surely since Trump has access to all the information and experts and advisors that anyone could possibly have, surely he is better informed than you and I.  Therein lies the fallacy, with plenty of evidence (just about every time he opens his mouth or Tweets).     
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 10:00:45 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #474 on: October 10, 2017, 10:13:33 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.




StarBright

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #475 on: October 10, 2017, 11:06:19 AM »

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I bolded some of your above to say - this is where facebook will come back to haunt everybody! The internet is forever :)

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #476 on: October 10, 2017, 11:42:40 AM »

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I bolded some of your above to say - this is where facebook will come back to haunt everybody! The internet is forever :)
Not a Trump voter, but I'm currently deleting my (minimal) presence on Facebook because I am so pissed at them for embedding staff in the Trump campaign to help them use all the targeting tricks Facebook has to improve the reach of the Trump campaign.

Corker got it spot on with his "the White House has become an Adult Day Care Centre" tweet; I'm hoping he isn't quite so right about his "leading us into WWIII" comment.
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paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #477 on: October 10, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »
But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

Honestly, I think you grossly overestimate the caliber of a significant number of his supporters. My wife still casually glances at FB, and folks we know there, who are still rabid supporters. The sickest part is that there seems to be absolutely nothing that this POS does that they can't quickly rationalize or dismiss, even at this point. Three months from now, or three years, he will be exiting the scene.  I guarantee that, absent some really strange turn of events, he will leave as a hero and martyr to tens of millions. If he pulls a Nixon and departs before being tried and convicted, he will be able to rally his base as he sells them on the story that he was forced out of the swamp, and unable conquer the deep state, Dems, and GOP establishment who want nothing more than to prevent him from MAGA. He failed because the same forces that keep them down, have made it impossible for even the great DJT to succeed in his battle to make their lives better.  He will convince them that he will always be there for them, and always doing battle on their behalf. If Mueller ties him to treason, and the legislative branch suddenly finds their long lost balls, he could even be impeached, convicted, removed and STILL have a significant loyal following. I really doubt that he will go out in any other manner than on top of his game, and still swindling, bullshitting, and conning a fairly large group of followers.

The two things that have really been eye opening in the whole Great White Dope saga, so far, have been. First, the POTUS has far more power than many of us ever really grasped. I think a lot of this is a result of most modern presidents acting in a rational manner, for the good of the nation. As in, for all your life so far, the Pres. is running the show, doing adult things 24/7 and as a citizen you really have no need to step back and reflect on exactly how much chaos a rogue POTUS can cause? After all, how could an incompetent, clueless, pathological psychopath ever make it to the oval office? This is the first time, in my adult life that we have a "leader" who makes it quite clear that the good of the republic is not a priority in the least, and is working hard to slash and burn anything his predecessor ever accomplished.  Second, the level of ignorance in our country is staggering. I have watched fellow working class voters do continual harm to themselves for decades, as they voted for leaders who were far from dedicated to the best interests of the working class. Sadly, a significant percentage of the electorate has gone past not voting in their best interests, to degraded into flat our morons, who want to believe absolute nonsense, fairy tales and bullshit, as long as it fits their own narrative, as to how things should work in their imaginary world. 

These folks have zero interest in denying their allegiance to Trump. No matter how ugly the road ahead gets for them. They are victims, Trump is their savior, and if he fails, it's somebody else's fault. He is one of them, they are victims, therefore his failure can only be compared to their own. They were wronged by many outside forces beyond their control, and when he fails it will be for the same reasons. Never look in the mirror for the source of your failure.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:15:05 PM by paddedhat »

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #478 on: October 10, 2017, 12:08:37 PM »
As a reminder:
- No wall
- Obamacare still yet to be repealed
- DACA reinforced
- Embassy still in Tel Aviv
- No tax reform
- 62% of appointments have been made
- Special Counsel investigation continues.
- China has not been labeled a currency manipulator.
- Russia is still actively hacking our critical infrastructure.

SO. MUCH. WINNING.
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Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #479 on: October 10, 2017, 12:11:29 PM »
But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

Honestly, I think you grossly overestimate the caliber of a significant number of his supporters. My wife still casually glances at FB, and folks we know there, who are still rabid supporters. The sickest part is that there seems to be absolutely nothing that this POS does that they can't quickly rationalize or dismiss, even at this point. Three months from now, or three years, he will be exiting the scene.  I guarantee that, absent some really strange turn of events, he will leave as a hero and martyr to tens of millions. If he pulls a Nixon and departs before being tried and convicted, he will be able to rally his base as he sells them on the story that he was forced out of the swamp, and unable conquer the deep state, Dems, and GOP establishment who want nothing more than to prevent him from MAGA. If Mueller ties him to treason, and the legislative branch suddenly finds their long lost balls, he could even be impeached, convicted, removed and STILL have a significant loyal following. I really doubt that he will go out in any other manner than on top of his game, and still swindling, bullshitting, and conning a fairly large group of followers.

The two things that have really been eye opening in the whole Great White Dope saga, so far, have been. First, the POTUS has far more power than many of us ever really grasped. I think a lot of this is a result of most modern presidents acting in a rational manner, for the good of the nation. This is the first time, in my adult life that we have a "leader" who makes it quite clear that the good of the republic is not a priority in the least. Second, the level of ignorance in our country is staggering. I have watched fellow working class voters do continual harm to themselves for decades, as they voted for leaders who were far from dedicated to the best interests of the working class. Sadly, a significant percentage of the electorate has gone past not voting in their best interests to degraded into flat our morons, who want to believe absolute nonsense, fairy tales and bullshit, as long as it fits their own narrative, as to how things should work in their imaginary world.

That's more or less what I wanted to say. There are still people out there who think very highly of him and take as truth everything he says. These people do not do any self-study on current events except perhaps to listen to conservative talk radio. Unfortunately I'm related to a few of these people and work with several as well. I avoid the topic of politics or religion with them.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #480 on: October 10, 2017, 12:20:43 PM »
But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

Honestly, I think you grossly overestimate the caliber of a significant number of his supporters. My wife still casually glances at FB, and folks we know there, who are still rabid supporters. The sickest part is that there seems to be absolutely nothing that this POS does that they can't quickly rationalize or dismiss, even at this point. Three months from now, or three years, he will be exiting the scene.  I guarantee that, absent some really strange turn of events, he will leave as a hero and martyr to tens of millions. If he pulls a Nixon and departs before being tried and convicted, he will be able to rally his base as he sells them on the story that he was forced out of the swamp, and unable conquer the deep state, Dems, and GOP establishment who want nothing more than to prevent him from MAGA. If Mueller ties him to treason, and the legislative branch suddenly finds their long lost balls, he could even be impeached, convicted, removed and STILL have a significant loyal following. I really doubt that he will go out in any other manner than on top of his game, and still swindling, bullshitting, and conning a fairly large group of followers.

The two things that have really been eye opening in the whole Great White Dope saga, so far, have been. First, the POTUS has far more power than many of us ever really grasped. I think a lot of this is a result of most modern presidents acting in a rational manner, for the good of the nation. This is the first time, in my adult life that we have a "leader" who makes it quite clear that the good of the republic is not a priority in the least. Second, the level of ignorance in our country is staggering. I have watched fellow working class voters do continual harm to themselves for decades, as they voted for leaders who were far from dedicated to the best interests of the working class. Sadly, a significant percentage of the electorate has gone past not voting in their best interests to degraded into flat our morons, who want to believe absolute nonsense, fairy tales and bullshit, as long as it fits their own narrative, as to how things should work in their imaginary world.

Preach. Trump reveals our country to be full of belligerent half-wits, and he is their king.  The GOP has been running a long con for years (a little carried interest loophole under this cup while I wave my hand at the abortions under this cup), and a better con man stole the marks right out from under them.  He knows that what really fuels them is anger and spite, and no one does anger and spite better than he does.

I suppose the corollary to this is that liberals traffic in condescension, and I confess that I'm guilty.  If they'd like to punish me for this by poisoning their own water, providing private jets for Cabinet members, and eliminating their own healthcare, then so be it.  I just don't want my children sent off to fight a vanity war to appease their idiot-in-chief.



infogoon

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #481 on: October 10, 2017, 12:49:09 PM »
Preach. Trump reveals our country to be full of belligerent half-wits, and he is their king.  The GOP has been running a long con for years (a little carried interest loophole under this cup while I wave my hand at the abortions under this cup), and a better con man stole the marks right out from under them.  He knows that what really fuels them is anger and spite, and no one does anger and spite better than he does.

One of the few bitter laughs of this whole saga has been watching wankers like Paul Ryan slowly realizing that most of their voters don't actually care about their carefully articulated conservative economic dogma, they're just really fucking mad about everything.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #482 on: October 10, 2017, 06:25:57 PM »
I wonder how much revenue a pay-per-view broadcast of Trump and Tillerson taking IQ tests then revealing their results to each other would generate. Enough to build the wall? Mensa is on board.

This may not be the administration we want but it is the one we deserve.

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #483 on: October 10, 2017, 06:34:52 PM »
I wonder how much revenue a pay-per-view broadcast of Trump and Tillerson taking IQ tests then revealing their results to each other would generate. Enough to build the wall? Mensa is on board.

This may not be the administration we want but it is the one we deserve.

I mean, if they are just going to partake in a series of publicity stunts, this one would at least provide some information.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #484 on: October 11, 2017, 09:15:53 AM »
So #45 is on Twitter today challenging the license of NBC.  This is real life.
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Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #485 on: October 11, 2017, 09:34:02 AM »
So #45 is on Twitter today challenging the license of NBC.  This is real life.
If only the 1st Amendment was as important as the 2nd.

ETA: So, I know Pence might be worse in some aspects (except he might not get us nuked, so maybe it's a net win), but would Trump's base rally around him? Or without their lord and master, would they just scatter back into the shadowy corners from whence they came?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:45:03 AM by Inaya »
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #486 on: October 11, 2017, 09:45:05 AM »
So #45 is on Twitter today challenging the license of NBC.  This is real life.
If only the 1st Amendment was as important as the 2nd.

The First Amendment only matters if you're carrying a tiki torch and marching behind Richard Spencer these days.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #487 on: October 11, 2017, 09:47:47 AM »
So #45 is on Twitter today challenging the license of NBC.  This is real life.
If only the 1st Amendment was as important as the 2nd.

The First Amendment only matters if you're carrying a tiki torch and marching behind Richard Spencer these days.

You're not disparaging the good Nazis are you?  Because I have it on good authority (the best really) that only some of the Nazis marching were bad.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #488 on: October 11, 2017, 09:58:03 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I'm not particularly concerned what my grand-children will think of me. There's no point in trying to guess social norms, what, 80 years in the future? I don't believe in Whiggish historiography either, so I don't buy into any "right side of history" arguments.

On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #489 on: October 11, 2017, 10:04:23 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I'm not particularly concerned what my grand-children will think of me. There's no point in trying to guess social norms, what, 80 years in the future? I don't believe in Whiggish historiography either, so I don't buy into any "right side of history" arguments.

On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

Knowledge is useless if decisions are made on a foundation of idiocy.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #490 on: October 11, 2017, 10:07:07 AM »
On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

How would you explain the sitting President trying to force some football players to stand for the anthem?  Threatening to ruin the business (I thought he was a pro-biz President?) of their sports league because a few players took a knee?  Forced patriotism is totalitarianism.

What evidence do you have that he knows more on these issues?  The one public example he made on health insurance plans shows he has no idea how health insurance plans works.  He is essentially trying to vilify North Korea via tweets, making thinly-veiled threats about nuking them, all the while undermining Secretary Tillerson who has (had?) a direct line of communication with them.  Just because he might have some "mostly unknown to the public" knowledge doesn't negate that he's an asshat.  If anything, it makes it worse.  He has secret knowledge but is still a blubbering idiot.

I guess, tl;dr - I don't really know what your point was.
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Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #491 on: October 11, 2017, 10:11:36 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I'm not particularly concerned what my grand-children will think of me. There's no point in trying to guess social norms, what, 80 years in the future? I don't believe in Whiggish historiography either, so I don't buy into any "right side of history" arguments.

On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

I would say that Trump absolutely has more access to the information you describe above. However, he is not one of the presidents who spends a lot of time delving into things intellectually. Reports are that he simply doesn't read, and may not have taken the time to read a whole book in his entire adult life post-college. I am not actually certain that your assertion that Trump, simply by virtue of being president, spontaneously has more subject knowledge on all of these issues. Access and people who desperately want to convey that to him? Absolutely. Demonstrated interest in applying himself to deep intellectual learning required to grasp these complicated issues with nuance? I don't see any evidence of that.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #492 on: October 11, 2017, 10:12:56 AM »
On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

How would you explain the sitting President trying to force some football players to stand for the anthem?  Threatening to ruin the business (I thought he was a pro-biz President?) of their sports league because a few players took a knee?  Forced patriotism is totalitarianism.

What evidence do you have that he knows more on these issues? The one public example he made on health insurance plans shows he has no idea how health insurance plans works.  He is essentially trying to vilify North Korea via tweets, making thinly-veiled threats about nuking them, all the while undermining Secretary Tillerson who has (had?) a direct line of communication with them.  Just because he might have some "mostly unknown to the public" knowledge doesn't negate that he's an asshat.  If anything, it makes it worse.  He has secret knowledge but is still a blubbering idiot.

I guess, tl;dr - I don't really know what your point was.

Exactly. Almost everything I see from him suggests that he knows less on most of these issues. Case in point: the reason Tillerson allegedly called him a f***ing moron being that Trump wanted a ten-fold increase in the nuclear arsenal this summer.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-tenfold-increase-us-nuclear-stockpile-tillerson-moron-2017-10

Proving that, for example, Trump knows less about the nuclear stockpile and the dangers of an arms race than just about every person I know.

Trump is literally the first president I've ever experienced where I am 100% confident I could do a better job in that position than he could. Potentially in my sleep.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:22:28 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #493 on: October 11, 2017, 10:20:35 AM »
On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

How would you explain the sitting President trying to force some football players to stand for the anthem?  Threatening to ruin the business (I thought he was a pro-biz President?) of their sports league because a few players took a knee?  Forced patriotism is totalitarianism.

What evidence do you have that he knows more on these issues? The one public example he made on health insurance plans shows he has no idea how health insurance plans works.  He is essentially trying to vilify North Korea via tweets, making thinly-veiled threats about nuking them, all the while undermining Secretary Tillerson who has (had?) a direct line of communication with them.  Just because he might have some "mostly unknown to the public" knowledge doesn't negate that he's an asshat.  If anything, it makes it worse.  He has secret knowledge but is still a blubbering idiot.

I guess, tl;dr - I don't really know what your point was.

Exactly. Almost everything I see from him suggests that he knows less on most of these issues. Case in point: the reason Tillerson allegedly called him a f***ing moron being that Trump wanted a ten-fold increase in the nuclear arsenal this summer.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-tenfold-increase-us-nuclear-stockpile-tillerson-moron-2017-10

Proving that, for example, Trump knows less about the nuclear stockpile and the dangers of an arms race than just about every person I know.

Trump is literally the first president I've ever experienced where I am 100% confident I could do a better job in that position than he could. Potentially in my sleep.

Or suggesting that NBC's broadcast license be pulled because they are "bad for country:"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41584194

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #494 on: October 11, 2017, 11:04:47 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I'm not particularly concerned what my grand-children will think of me. There's no point in trying to guess social norms, what, 80 years in the future? I don't believe in Whiggish historiography either, so I don't buy into any "right side of history" arguments.

On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

Knowledge is useless if decisions are made on a foundation of idiocy.

Yeah, I'm really struggling to see how you are still #MAGA when you just admitted that you are confident that the US president makes dumb decision regarding such inconsequential things as health care and nuclear policy.  I mean, I'm sure Hillary would be worse, with her second in her class at Yale law school intellect and years of policy and administrative experience and encyclopedic knowledge of the issues.  Like, in that alternate reality, she sent some emails asking Huma (MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD!!1!!) how to operate the fax machine from a private server, so burn the witch. Is this where the redcaps are these days?  Arguing that Trump is dumb, but it's fine and why are we making such a big deal about it?  Hint: it's because we remember the last time Republicans told us a dumb president would be fine because he would hire all the best people.

I do buy into right side of history arguments, as well as arguments about doing the right thing and not succumbing to nihilistic "eh-what's the worst that can happen?" stance when it comes to our nuclear arsenal.  By the way, we just passed the "fucking moron" stage of this presidency and have reached the "who is in charge of tackling him if he tries to detonate a nuke?" stage.  That's right-Republicans are privately wondering if Kelly and Mathis would tackle him.  #MAGA #somuchwinning  Or is it the "what if we had 10x more nukes?" stage?  Who can tell?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #495 on: October 11, 2017, 11:10:55 AM »
There is no citation required to suggest with probability >95% that the sitting President knows more about experimental military technology than random commenters on the internet. It boggles the mind to suggest otherwise, and it is not an extraordinary claim.

I stopped reading your sources with Vox, and their first line. I'm familiar with the "$12 health insurance" line. I don't buy the criticism. Vox almost has the moment of clarity here, bust misses it:
Quote
The idea of paying a small annual premium up until a given age, at which point you have the insurance policy free and clear, roughly corresponds to how a limited payment life insurance plan works. These plans are useful tax avoidance devices for extremely wealthy individuals, which is perhaps why Trump has them at top of mind, but it has nothing to do with health insurance.
Yes, that's exactly the point. Anyone who follows conservative health care economics closely will know that is what they want as a minimalist solution to the problem of pre-existing conditions. This is not evidence of Trump's ignorance, this is evidence of Vox's ignorance. It is absolutely evidence of Trump being a dumbass since he worded it so poorly, but clearly Trump has advisers, and clearly Trump picks up at least some bit of his adviser's advice, or else he couldn't have made this statement at all.

Anyone who has the prior that THEY know more about experimental military tech than the sitting President is, in all probability, wrong.

I think you are working double-time to fill in the blanks in Trump's gaping lack of knowledge.  Which, why?  To make yourself feel better about your vote?  In 20 years, no one will quite remember why HILLARYCLINTONISTHEDEVILPIZZAGATEBENGHAZI-in fact, I predict that she'll rehabilitate her image quite well, which she has always tended to do after facing public losses.  But, I think that admitted Trump voters will be pretty scarce after this disaster of an administration.  I mean, we are already at the fucking moron stage (the feel-good news story we needed last week).  Just like no one wistfully talks about their enthusiasm for pulling the lever for George Wallace, I think that our country will have a collective case of amnesia affecting 60 million people pretty soon.  So, you can probably just lie to your grandkids about it like everyone else will.

I'm not particularly concerned what my grand-children will think of me. There's no point in trying to guess social norms, what, 80 years in the future? I don't believe in Whiggish historiography either, so I don't buy into any "right side of history" arguments.

On the other hand, current US culture has a massive anti-Trump streak that strikes me as irrational. Trump being an idiot and a jackass does not justify statements like "Trump is a dictator" and "Trump knows less than the average internet commenter."

That's even true in cases where he makes decisions that are probably wrong. Trump will know more about the specifics on nuclear policy and probably more about health-care policy at this point than I do, even if I am highly confident he makes dumb decisions regarding them. Certainly Trump knows more about North Korea than I do.

I would say that Trump absolutely has more access to the information you describe above. However, he is not one of the presidents who spends a lot of time delving into things intellectually. Reports are that he simply doesn't read, and may not have taken the time to read a whole book in his entire adult life post-college. I am not actually certain that your assertion that Trump, simply by virtue of being president, spontaneously has more subject knowledge on all of these issues. Access and people who desperately want to convey that to him? Absolutely. Demonstrated interest in applying himself to deep intellectual learning required to grasp these complicated issues with nuance? I don't see any evidence of that.

+1

It's a point that I was trying to make a littler earlier on.



Access to information doesn't mean that you have learned, read, or understood that information.  If you lived in the library of congress you would have access to a tremendous amount of information . . . but it wouldn't make you an expert on every item contained therein.  Particularly if playing on twitter and watching network TV took up most of your day, every day.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #496 on: October 11, 2017, 12:49:24 PM »
All this, and we're still arguing about whether he is more knowledgeable than citizens who have no power to make decisions. What we should be comparing him to is the generals, diplomats, policy wonks, and basically everyone he works with who he talks down to and says he could do a better job than. These are the experts and he is telling them he knows better than them, it's really not a stretch to suggest that this is Dunning-Krueger. Also, once again, David Dunning says so.

Remember, this is the guy who when asked who he talks with regarding foreign affairs answered “I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things."

Even if he does understand some things better than he lets on I don't think it would be playing to his strengths to discuss details. If he starts talking specifics it becomes a lot harder to say "this stuff is easy, I have simple solutions" and simple solutions are what people want. All he has to do now is throw around some scary ideas that shut down rational thought and say "follow me, I'll protect you from the (gays, muslims, socialists, scientists, or whatever today's threat is)"

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #497 on: October 12, 2017, 07:56:33 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/trump-just-claimed-stock-market-gains-actually-offset-national-debt.html

Are we sure #45 has knowledge or is smart?

Quote
Trump just claimed stock market gains actually offset national debt
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #498 on: October 16, 2017, 12:04:23 PM »
We can expect more of this, which is the exact opposite of the buck stops here:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-democrats-will-be-blamed-for-premiums-rising-obamacare-csrs
Quote
Bannon also said that his priority in the near future is “a season of war against the GOP establishment.”

Asked about his former top adviser’s remarks, Trump on Monday told reporters that Bannon “is very committed” and that he “can understand how Steve Bannon feels.”

“He’s a friend of mine and he’s very committed to getting things passed,” Trump said. “I mean, look. Despite what the press writes, I have great relationships with actually many senators, but in particular with most Republican senators. But we’re not getting the job done.”

“And I’m not going to blame myself, I’ll be honest,” he added. “They are not getting the job done.”

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #499 on: October 16, 2017, 12:50:57 PM »
We can expect more of this, which is the exact opposite of the buck stops here:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-democrats-will-be-blamed-for-premiums-rising-obamacare-csrs
Quote
Bannon also said that his priority in the near future is “a season of war against the GOP establishment.”

Asked about his former top adviser’s remarks, Trump on Monday told reporters that Bannon “is very committed” and that he “can understand how Steve Bannon feels.”

“He’s a friend of mine and he’s very committed to getting things passed,” Trump said. “I mean, look. Despite what the press writes, I have great relationships with actually many senators, but in particular with most Republican senators. But we’re not getting the job done.”

“And I’m not going to blame myself, I’ll be honest,” he added. “They are not getting the job done.”

I particularly love this direct contradiction:

"Obamacare is finished. It’s dead. It’s gone. It’s no longer — don’t — you shouldn’t even mention it. It’s gone. There is no such thing as Obamacare anymore,” Trump said. “When the premiums go up, that has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that we had poor health care delivered poorly, written poorly, approved by the Democrats.

So we shouldn't mention Obamacare anymore, except when premiums go up under Trumpcare, then you can blame it on Obamacare. Sad part is, his minions will do just that.