Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 342204 times)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4000 on: September 03, 2018, 07:47:12 PM »
I'll enjoy the increase in delicious halal meals.

Attacks on my reading comprehension still don't answer what series of events you think are going to lead to these problems in the US.  But you can feel free to read that linked Cato institute report if you want to lessen the feeling of dread you have.  It's actually pretty interesting. I don't always agree with them, but they pretty much nailed down why we are better at this shit.  It's not magic. It's our culture, our economy, our history, and our immigration laws.  And, as I mentioned, it's the fact that our Muslim immigrants tend not to be uneducated religious types.  Who could have thought those two traits together could be such a problem?

Love it too, whats your fav? Lamb or Chicken? With Aleppo chili?

Again, like I said, I was talking about the problems Europe is facing. Muslim Immigrants are indeed highly educated, I think I was also quite clear I was talking about the non-westernized refugees growing up in a very different environment.

Immigration Laws, unfortunately matter not as much in the end when you have millions of refugees waiting to come in. It is inhumane to reject the ones in need, yet unfair to citizens to let too many in. It's a delicate balance, I think most people can understand.

Many European nations were optimistic back in 2011 that their existing laws and their culture would be enough integrate the new comers well, but that (hey here are our laws) turned out to be way too optimistic, and several European nations have begun making refugees take sex-ed courses with focus on consent. Sadly some things just need to be experienced to be understood.

EU nations learned this the hard way, don't waste the valuable lesson.

You seem to not understand some very basic tenants of US Immigration policy.  For starters, all refugees are immigrants (whereas not all immigrants are refugees). 
Also, as multiple people here have already tried to point out, all immigrants to the US are beholden to our laws, and undergo vetting - those that hold Sharia law (or any other code) above our own Constutition are simply not allowed in.  This is not a Trump position or an Obama position, but has been part of our immigration policy going on 50 years.  Oh, and before that - anyone who could get here could live here, and much of our population was formed on refugees.
Ultimately though what perplexes me is the confoundation of people who are Muslim, people are have lived under Sharia law but are trying to escape (‘refugees’) and people who subscribe to Sharia law.  Accociating all Muslims with Sharia law is grouping the many with the few, and saying people who live under suc a system (and are actively trying to escape) are somehow ‘uncompatible’ with our society ignores the scores of people who do exactly this every year - not just from countries under Sharia law but also those who have come from monarchies, communist governments, tyrants and warlords.  Again, history has shown that even here people integrate very well.

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4001 on: September 03, 2018, 08:01:06 PM »
I think I will reply you once last time on this issue. The European nations also thought the same way in the beginning, about how their laws would work prohibiting undesired behaviors, no matter the new comers upbringings and backgrounds.

Unfortunately they were wrong, and are now taking new steps (actively educating them about acceptable behaviors) to ensure everyone starts on the same page. We should all learn from this, I am merely proposing we do the same, when our time comes.

I understand there is a vetting process in NA and I have no quarrel with that. I have said many many times, my original point was regarding the European situation, not America, please note this key difference. Is it really that hard to tell, 10+ posts in, we are talking about two different host "nations" and two situations?

I don't mean people are not compatible solely because they live under a system, in fact, I have stressed this multiple times, it is not about the people. I most definitely did not associate all muslims with sharia laws, I am not sure how you got that impression and I find it offensive. What I said was, some beliefs, customs, and traditions are not compatible. Leave them at the door, welcome to your new home.


 I have been very clear through out, I aim to remove beliefs and traditions that are antithetic to our views, not the people, never the people in need. I am not even arguing against the religion, rather, only parts of it that are not compatible with democracy. If you can't understand that, I have no choice but to question your reading comprehension skills and/or your integrity.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:19:33 PM by anisotropy »

astvilla

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4002 on: September 03, 2018, 08:44:16 PM »
Unfortunately, a lot of Muslims are unfairly portrayed due to how the media reports them. Fox but even liberal outlets, give outsize attention to incidents involving Muslims. People think violence when they hear Muslim. Not true but if people saw constant fighting, civil strife, suicide bombings, crimes by Muslim in Europe, terror attacks, bombings in Bali and ISIS in Phillippines, Mumbai, Iran building nukes and exporting violence to their neighbors, Pakistan profiting off US aid for "not helping" in Afghanistan, and you're constantly bombarded with this, well, I can understand why people think that way of Muslims even though I'm not in real agreement with it. 

Personally, I think 1 reason Bush invaded Iraq to start a large conflict against Islam so that the US military can use them as training practice for war since no one cares if brown or black people die, sharpen their warfighting skills, support the defense industry (present in many constituent states), gain, maintain experience (that China doesn't have). I heard Bush justified the war internally because if democracy could be established in Iraq, then secular democracy would sweep into Iran/Saudi Arabia and pacify the whole region and reduce regional rivalries and tensions (obviously didn't work) as everyone would be love and peace.

I think we mistake democracy as a panacea for all problems. Obviously it's not. China is thriving without it. ROK, JPN, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam essentially had authoritarian governments until they reached a level of development where democracy could take place for some and remain stable. Democracy works for us but might not for everyone. Maybe let them figure it out rather than us thrust it on them. This appears to be Trump's sentiment of non-interference in other people's governments.

So some say Muslims aren't compatible with democracy, in part, because no Muslim majority nation has a "healthy" democracy with freedom of religion an ensured right. Malaysia does cane their LGBTQ and Indonesia is turning more fundamentalist. ISIS militants fought in the Phillippines. Muslims don't share many liberal values with liberals regarding marriage, abortion, homosexuality, marijuana. Muslims can have democracy, but it wouldn't be a democracy I think any of us could live in as their rules are more restrictive nor would they be as tolerating or welcoming, which angers a lot of Trump voters. But none of that means Muslims can't integrate into America

Regarding EU, Merkel mistakenly thought EU could be like America. But America's common identity is in part due to not being bound by bloodlines or genetics (Obama just said this at McCain's funeral). EU countries have strong cultures, cuisines, languages and rich histories (millennia compared to our 250 years). EU is mistaken to think we're the same. Also EU never had a Civil Rights movement like US had in the 60s, they didn't have the same growing pains. If you go to European football matches, Europeans can be pretty racist, more so than Americans. I don't recall in the US, racist incidents being commonly reported in NBA/NFL compared to soccer matches where fans get banned for racism (Spain especially has big problem with racism).

Also EU isn't historically accepting immigrants. They are historically sending immigrants to the US. EU is a homeland for people. America isn't a "homeland" so EU is different than America in how they see others.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:47:46 PM by astvilla »

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4003 on: September 03, 2018, 08:52:26 PM »
I think we mistake democracy as a panacea for all problems. Obviously it's not. China is thriving without it. ROK, JPN, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam essentially had authoritarian governments until they reached a level of development where democracy could take place for some and remain stable. Democracy works for us but might not for everyone. Maybe let them figure it out rather than us thrust it on them. This appears to be Trump's sentiment of non-interference in other people's governments.

So some say Muslims aren't compatible with democracy, in part, because no Muslim majority nation has a "healthy" democracy with freedom of religion an ensured right. Malaysia does cane their LGBTQ and Indonesia is turning more fundamentalist. ISIS militants fought in the Phillippines. Muslims don't share many liberal values with liberals regarding marriage, abortion, homosexuality, marijuana. Muslims can have democracy, but it wouldn't be a democracy I think any of us could live in as their rules are more restrictive nor would they be as tolerating or welcoming, which angers a lot of Trump voters. But none of that means Muslims can't integrate into America

Regarding EU, Merkel mistakenly thought EU could be like America. But America's common identity is in part due to not being bound by bloodlines or genetics (Obama just said this at McCain's funeral). EU countries have strong cultures, cuisines, languages and rich histories (millennia compared to our 250 years). EU is mistaken to think we're the same. Also EU never had a Civil Rights movement like US had in the 60s, they didn't have the same growing pains. If you go to European football matches, Europeans can be pretty racist, more so than Americans. I don't recall in the US, racist incidents being commonly reported in NBA/NFL compared to soccer matches where fans get banned for racism (Spain especially has big problem with racism).

Also EU isn't historically accepting immigrants. They are historically sending immigrants to the US. EU is a homeland for people. America isn't a "homeland" so EU is different than America in how they see others.

Again, I find myself agreeing with elements with your view:  Democracy works for us but might not for everyone (begs the question, why? is it cultural?). And your comparison of US vs EU.

However, I would like point out, the EUHR Court did not find Muslims to be incompatible with democracy , rather they found the Sharia laws to be incompatible with democracy. To me, they are not the same things. In fact, Muslim nations can be democratic as you mentioned, and I have no doubt most citizens from these nations would integrate just fine (and they have, my neighbors for example) in America and in EU.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 09:13:18 PM by anisotropy »

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4004 on: September 04, 2018, 03:16:40 AM »
Let's not beat around the bush: the discussion of certain immigrants' religious beliefs being incompatible with Western democracy is, at its root, functionally identical to the arguments made by Oswald Mosley. Read it as a commentary on Jewish immigrants and see how it looks.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4005 on: September 04, 2018, 04:53:09 AM »
Let's not beat around the bush: the discussion of certain immigrants' religious beliefs being incompatible with Western democracy is, at its root, functionally identical to the arguments made by Oswald Mosley. Read it as a commentary on Jewish immigrants and see how it looks.


That comparison used to work well.  Unfortunately anti-Semitism seems not to be as taboo as in the recent past.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4006 on: September 04, 2018, 06:03:15 AM »


However, I would like point out, the EUHR Court did not find Muslims to be incompatible with democracy , rather they found the Sharia laws to be incompatible with democracy. To me, they are not the same things. In fact, Muslim nations can be democratic as you mentioned, and I have no doubt most citizens from these nations would integrate just fine (and they have, my neighbors for example) in America and in EU.

I agree that they are most decidedly NOT the same thing, and Muslims can and do live and thrive in democracies.  Indonesia is one example..

It's no different from Christianity - to follow the scriptures literally and devoutly is incompatible with democracy, and yet its self evident that Christians can create and exist under a democracy. 

Khaetra

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4007 on: September 04, 2018, 06:35:23 AM »
So many here don't like him. I don't like his character but I accept it and try to be an optimist.

So you've heard his rhetoric and you've decided you're okay with that.  So you're okay with a man who says nazi's are good people, Russia is okay, cheating on your many wives is okay, paying for porn stars/Playboy models for having sex with you while married is okay, lying daily is okay...

Sadly, it is acceptable and even encouraged, by many.

Whoa okay you need to chill down.

People lie all the time. Yes he's got no external references or sense of humor but I care about issues and actions.

Lot of people cheat on their partners, many leaders of many countries, even our own (Clinton, Kennedy, both DEMOCRATS) did. And worse than Trump, they did it on government, tax-payer property (which annoyed others more than the act itself). Al Franken, Petraeus, need I go on? You almost sound like Nazi police yourself..jeez.

I don't think Nazis are okay, but it's not only Nazis that voted for him. In fact, data shows most people who voted for him are not Nazis.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not okay, but remember, we interfered in their elections and countless other countries too. We'd be hypocrites to call Russia out for getting a taste of our own medicine.

Most people I know who voted Trump are pretty friendly nice people. Maybe you should leave your bubble and start meeting Republican voters, not listen to what news says who the voters are. And most people just voted on party lines, regardless of the candidate. Don't try to claim to know everything about an anonymous stranger on the Internet. I'm a registered Democrat who voted Obama and would've voted him a 3rd term if allowed the choice.

I'd say Dems accepted Bill Clinton's behavior too. People accepted George Bush's behavior. I'd rather have Trump than Bush. Between 6500 Americans dead, 50000 wounded, and trillions of our tax dollars wasted plus worst financial crisis since Great Depression versus personal proclivities of one person...I'd make that trade every single time, any rational person would. And how things are under Trump right now, I'd pick Trump over Bush. Of course, Trump's full term or terms hasn't borne out yet so he could still have major screw-ups. And I credit the economy more to Obama than Trump.

I wouldn't encourage that behavior but I don't think Presidents historically have ever been as strong a moral compass compared to your community, your parents, or your own personal values from colleagues, family, religion, etc. So I'm not sure how much a President's personal matters affects one's morals. Hillary lied but you didn't care about how that. She didn't leave Bill even though he cheated because she used him for his last name and her own ambition. I'm not going through a scorecard and keeping a tally on the sins leaders commit and deciding who to vote for based on only how well-behaved they are and pretend I'm God passing down judgment on others. I care about the issues and what they intend to do. For some, Trump was an outsider and no history, people thought he'd change once in, obviously in many ways he didn't so people will switch if there's an alternative, which doesn't look like it in 2020...

If you look at 2016, Obama and Trump had the same message. Political outsiders (a main reason Obama ran in 2008, cause if he served in Senate too long, people wouldn't consider him outsider anymore), and their own versions of populism and energy. Hillary was the opponent in both cases, so why the surprise? She corrupted the nomination process by stonewalling Bernie and caused her own defeat. She just was never a strong candidate and I wished the Democrats had someone better I could vote for.

First, I take offense at 'nazi police'.  I think all nazi's deserve a swift kick and a few punches to the face, but that's just the way I think.  Second, I think the POTUS should be held to the highest standard.  We tell our kids (in general) that yes, they too could be POTUS someday and that person in the office is someone we should look up to.  There are a number of parents I know personally who are having a difficult time trying to explain the behavior (and news reports) to their kids.  To be fair, my son was young and asking about Clinton and his impeachment/misdeeds, so I understand how they feel.  You shouldn't have to discuss these things with kids, but here we are again.

I agree Bush wasn't the best and cost us both lives and money, not to mention how he failed to handle Katrina.  He screamed 'mission accomplished' when it clearly wasn't and ignored the warnings about 9/11.  He had many missteps during his term and history will not look kindly back at him.

Trump though, is a total disaster.  He made promises during his campaign to rile his base that he has either already broke or will never accomplish, such as 'I will be too busy to golf' but almost every weekend he's at one of his properties on our dime, 'Mexico will pay for a wall' is never going to happen (the wall and Mexico paying for it), he knew more about terrorism than the Generals in charge (the raid in Yemen?), 'I only hire the best and brightest' (how many are in or going to jail/have been fired/have flipped?)...I could go on.  It is a fact he won't read his daily briefings, get's all of his news from Fox (and even retweets their points), cannot let go of Hillary, attacks the media calling them 'fake news', attacks his own AG and thinks he's there to serve him and not the people, the list is long.

Sadly his base is too stupid to realize they got bamboozled by a slick-talkin' Yank, bought it all hook-line-sinker.  Now again, taxpayers are paying the price in the form of higher-priced goods due to tariffs that didn't need to be there and bailing our farmers out due to those tariffs (some don't want the handout).  Do these people seriously think that a man who shits on a gold toilet really has their best interests at heart?  Does a man who is so out of touch with reality care about a factory worker or a farmer?  Simple answer is no.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4008 on: September 04, 2018, 07:44:52 AM »
Many European nations were optimistic back in 2011 that their existing laws and their culture would be enough integrate the new comers well, but that (hey here are our laws) turned out to be way too optimistic, and several European nations have begun making refugees take sex-ed courses with focus on consent. Sadly some things just need to be experienced to be understood.

Well then  they will be better educated than the masses of American and Canadian men who think no=maybe and maybe=yes.

So you agree it would be a good idea to implement some re-education process upon entry then?


I guess I should have added the /s comment - as in, consent is a North American issue for native-born residents, how do we re-educate our local men?  It would be lovely if native-born American and Canadian men all understood the concept of consent, way too many do not.  How will immigrant men learn the proper concept of consent when they are learning no=maybe and maybe=yes from the locals?

Nereo has it right later on:
It's no different from Christianity - to follow the scriptures literally and devoutly is incompatible with democracy, and yet its self evident that Christians can create and exist under a democracy.  Religion (and other cultural attitudes) can be compatible with democracy or not compatible with democracy, it depends on how the religion is interpreted.  And it does not have to be in the law, the US  formally separates Church and State, Canada does not - but since the 4 founding provinces included 3 that were mostly Protestant, and one that was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, I suppose we started off with a Federal idea of hands off.  Of course the individual provinces have had many many hands-on moments in their areas of jurisdiction - where but in 1950's Quebec would a Jewish child automatically go to a Protestant school?

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4009 on: September 04, 2018, 08:01:53 AM »
I think I will reply you once last time on this issue. The European nations also thought the same way in the beginning, about how their laws would work prohibiting undesired behaviors, no matter the new comers upbringings and backgrounds.

Unfortunately they were wrong, and are now taking new steps (actively educating them about acceptable behaviors) to ensure everyone starts on the same page. We should all learn from this, I am merely proposing we do the same, when our time comes.

I understand there is a vetting process in NA and I have no quarrel with that. I have said many many times, my original point was regarding the European situation, not America, please note this key difference. Is it really that hard to tell, 10+ posts in, we are talking about two different host "nations" and two situations?


But why are you so worried about this?  There's very little evidence that we are letting in hordes of Sharia-beholden refugees.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/30/key-facts-about-refugees-to-the-u-s/

We let in 39,000 Muslim refugees in 2016.  We have let in Muslim refugees for years.   But I don't think there is any political appetite for letting a million refugees from any country like Germany did.  At the levels we are accustomed to, refugee assimilation seems to be mostly working fine.  You say you are talking about Europe, but then you also say we shouldn't dismiss the possibility in the US. But what series of events do you think would have to happen to increase our refugee program more than 10-fold so that we'd even have to worry about this? 

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4010 on: September 04, 2018, 08:06:52 AM »
I think I will reply you once last time on this issue. The European nations also thought the same way in the beginning, about how their laws would work prohibiting undesired behaviors, no matter the new comers upbringings and backgrounds.

Unfortunately they were wrong, and are now taking new steps (actively educating them about acceptable behaviors) to ensure everyone starts on the same page. We should all learn from this, I am merely proposing we do the same, when our time comes.

I understand there is a vetting process in NA and I have no quarrel with that. I have said many many times, my original point was regarding the European situation, not America, please note this key difference. Is it really that hard to tell, 10+ posts in, we are talking about two different host "nations" and two situations?


But why are you so worried about this? There's very little evidence that we are letting in hordes of Sharia-beholden refugees.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/30/key-facts-about-refugees-to-the-u-s/

We let in 39,000 Muslim refugees in 2016.  We have let in Muslim refugees for years.   But I don't think there is any political appetite for letting a million refugees from any country like Germany did.  At the levels we are accustomed to, refugee assimilation seems to be mostly working fine.  You say you are talking about Europe, but then you also say we shouldn't dismiss the possibility in the US. But what series of events do you think would have to happen to increase our refugee program more than 10-fold so that we'd even have to worry about this?

I bet it begins with an F and ends with an X.


Nick_Miller

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4011 on: September 04, 2018, 08:14:24 AM »
Trump just Tweeted an attack on the DOJ because two "popular" Republican reps are being charged so close to the mid terms.

SERIOUSLY?

How is this defending the Constitution? This is f'ing ridiculous.

Khaetra

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4012 on: September 04, 2018, 09:09:31 AM »
Trump just Tweeted an attack on the DOJ because two "popular" Republican reps are being charged so close to the mid terms.

SERIOUSLY?

How is this defending the Constitution? This is f'ing ridiculous.

/S
Bah!  Constitution-Smonstitution I'll do what I want!  If that evil Keebler Elf Sessions hadn't recused himself in the beginning this wouldn't have happened!  Now I need to throw out more Crooked Hillary/Fake Media/Wall stuff at my rallies...err I mean campaign stops.  Good job Jeff...
/S

Seriously though, he has no clue how Gov't works or what the Constitution means.  I know there is no litmus test for becoming President, but maybe there should be.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4013 on: September 04, 2018, 09:29:21 AM »
I bet it begins with an F and ends with an X.

O yeah, that quality news source...  Which reminds me, I need to see what they are saying this week...  Let's see - angry mobs and arrests at Kavanaugh 'Supreme Chaos' hearing, Nikes set on fire...  winning!

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Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4015 on: September 04, 2018, 10:18:10 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html

This'll be exciting.

Effectively the same story as we knew before, but from a more credible source than the Wolff book. It will still not move the needle, unfortunately. It will probably be a NYT bestseller, though. Mostly, these books will be interesting documentation for future generations.

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4016 on: September 04, 2018, 10:19:27 AM »
Let's not beat around the bush: the discussion of certain immigrants' religious beliefs being incompatible with Western democracy is, at its root, functionally identical to the arguments made by Oswald Mosley. Read it as a commentary on Jewish immigrants and see how it looks.

Functionally? Denouncing "the discussion of certain immigrants' religious beliefs being incompatible with Western democracy" in a blanket statement is ignoring the findings of EUHR Court regarding Sharia laws, or do you dispute their rulings and find them compatible with democracy? Devil is in the details.

Nereo has it right later on:
It's no different from Christianity - to follow the scriptures literally and devoutly is incompatible with democracy, and yet its self evident that Christians can create and exist under a democracy.  Religion (and other cultural attitudes) can be compatible with democracy or not compatible with democracy, it depends on how the religion is interpreted.  And it does not have to be in the law, the US  formally separates Church and State, Canada does not - but since the 4 founding provinces included 3 that were mostly Protestant, and one that was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, I suppose we started off with a Federal idea of hands off.  Of course the individual provinces have had many many hands-on moments in their areas of jurisdiction - where but in 1950's Quebec would a Jewish child automatically go to a Protestant school?

Right, I have said many times, I singled out this particular group because its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis. In fact, it's one of the primary fighting points over in Europe where refugees are concerned. Other religions (fundamental Christians for example) are not relevant in this specific case. The migrants are for the most part not Christian. When fundamental Christian refugees show up, it will then become relevant in this discussion.

But why are you so worried about this?  There's very little evidence that we are letting in hordes of Sharia-beholden refugees.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/30/key-facts-about-refugees-to-the-u-s/

We let in 39,000 Muslim refugees in 2016.  We have let in Muslim refugees for years.   But I don't think there is any political appetite for letting a million refugees from any country like Germany did.  At the levels we are accustomed to, refugee assimilation seems to be mostly working fine.  You say you are talking about Europe, but then you also say we shouldn't dismiss the possibility in the US. But what series of events do you think would have to happen to increase our refugee program more than 10-fold so that we'd even have to worry about this?

Note how I phrased my original post: "without properly integrating the immigrants, the political climate in host nations will become increasingly reactionary "

My end goal is to get these people in, without triggering a reactionary political backlash. As I replied to Nereo's example of Canada taking in 25000 refugees (heavily vetted even) earlier, it was achieved at great expense to Liberal's political support. I understand foresight and long term planning is not for everyone, but at least try. How many more do you think the Liberals can get in before they lose the next election? Think of what I am proposing, an official standardized initiation procedure, a PR project, so that more people could be helped in the long run. Or are you content with simply appearing virtuous without considering the consequences :)

Nereo,
I think you can now see our positions are actually not too different. I am not associating all muslims with sharia laws, nor am I advocating some sort of ban. I hope you can see that.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4017 on: September 04, 2018, 11:17:40 AM »


However, I would like point out, the EUHR Court did not find Muslims to be incompatible with democracy , rather they found the Sharia laws to be incompatible with democracy. To me, they are not the same things. In fact, Muslim nations can be democratic as you mentioned, and I have no doubt most citizens from these nations would integrate just fine (and they have, my neighbors for example) in America and in EU.

I agree that they are most decidedly NOT the same thing, and Muslims can and do live and thrive in democracies.  Indonesia is one example..

Not trying to start argument here and going off on a tangent, but Indonesia is not an example of democracy. Yes, on paper, it is a democracy. In reality, when one is living there, it is not.

Back to the topic at hand...

Bob Woodward book is going to be exciting to read. I can not wait until it is published.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4018 on: September 04, 2018, 11:30:48 AM »
its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis.

I realize that you are trying to draw a distinction between US immigration policies and European immigration policies, but this is a thread about the Trump presidency.  A presidency characterized by blatantly racist immigration policies that discriminate based on country of origin and religious beliefs, as proxies for skin tone.  You probably shouldn't be surprised when people assumed you were on-topic when you tried to say Muslims are a problem, because Trump has been saying that for years now.

Woodward's book, like Wolff's book and Omarosa's book, isn't going to surprise anyone by saying that Trump is a bumbling old racist con man.  We all knew that when he ran in 2000, and some of you voted for him anyway.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4019 on: September 04, 2018, 12:06:30 PM »
Trump just Tweeted an attack on the DOJ because two "popular" Republican reps are being charged so close to the mid terms.

SERIOUSLY?

How is this defending the Constitution? This is f'ing ridiculous.

/S
Bah!  Constitution-Smonstitution I'll do what I want!  If that evil Keebler Elf Sessions hadn't recused himself in the beginning this wouldn't have happened!  Now I need to throw out more Crooked Hillary/Fake Media/Wall stuff at my rallies...err I mean campaign stops.  Good job Jeff...
/S

Seriously though, he has no clue how Gov't works or what the Constitution means.  I know there is no litmus test for becoming President, but maybe there should be.

Could Trump pass the US Citizenship test? Inquiring minds want to know. I know Clinton and Obama could, having law degrees. I think Trumps knowledge of our country's laws are a little more -fuzzy. Not great when you are the f-ing president of the United States and thus are one out of the three f-ing branches of the government. excuse my language.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4020 on: September 04, 2018, 12:11:38 PM »
Trump just Tweeted an attack on the DOJ because two "popular" Republican reps are being charged so close to the mid terms.

SERIOUSLY?

How is this defending the Constitution? This is f'ing ridiculous.

/S
Bah!  Constitution-Smonstitution I'll do what I want!  If that evil Keebler Elf Sessions hadn't recused himself in the beginning this wouldn't have happened!  Now I need to throw out more Crooked Hillary/Fake Media/Wall stuff at my rallies...err I mean campaign stops.  Good job Jeff...
/S

Seriously though, he has no clue how Gov't works or what the Constitution means.  I know there is no litmus test for becoming President, but maybe there should be.

Could Trump pass the US Citizenship test? Inquiring minds want to know. I know Clinton and Obama could, having law degrees. I think Trumps knowledge of our country's laws are a little more -fuzzy. Not great when you are the f-ing president of the United States and thus are one out of the three f-ing branches of the government. excuse my language.

Hm. I'm not at all sure he could.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/04/us-citizenship-test-quiz

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/gallery/240108_citizenship_quiz/


Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4021 on: September 04, 2018, 12:14:57 PM »
"He's a fucking moron." - Trump's Secretary of State

"He's just an idiot. He's a dope with the intelligence of a kindergartner." - Trump's National Security Advisor

"It's like he has the understanding of a fifth or sixth grader." - Trump's Secretary of Defense

"He's an idiot. It's pointless to convince him of anything. He's gone off the rails. We're in Crazytown." - Trump's Chief of Staff

Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?  His staff is literally hiding papers from him so he won't do stupid shit.  We are way past the point where you can apologize for this.  Start atoning now by vowing to vote better in the future.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4022 on: September 04, 2018, 12:25:36 PM »
Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?

A certain type of voter really likes the idea of someone who isn't very smart being in charge.  There has always been an anti-intellectual movement in the US.

You have the libertarians who sold themselves the idea that everyone in government is incompetent as a rule . . . so, Trump in power just feeds their view of how things have always been.

There are the religiously capitalist types (often overlapping with libertarians), who cannot imagine a world where being born with a silver spoon in your mouth means that you'll be rich when you grow up.  Trump has money, and was a businessman . . . therefore he's sort of an archbishop to this crowd.  If he was stupid, the free market wouldn't have given him money to them.

You've got the hard core Republicans, who will vote Republican or die.  It doesn't matter if the president is an Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron to them, or if he breaks every principal that the Republican party claims to fight for.  He's red, they vote red.

There are the Christians, who see him as an easily led idiot in a position of power who will help them enforce their religious views on others . . . because Trump is clearly a tool of God.

You've also got the white power crew . . . and they've never been particularly enamored of intelligent people telling them that they have to work as hard as people who aren't white.  Trump doesn't like shithole Africans, rapist Mexicans, or those damned brown people who are taking everything over, that's good enough.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:28:40 PM by GuitarStv »

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4023 on: September 04, 2018, 12:32:08 PM »
"He's a fucking moron." - Trump's Secretary of State

"He's just an idiot. He's a dope with the intelligence of a kindergartner." - Trump's National Security Advisor

"It's like he has the understanding of a fifth or sixth grader." - Trump's Secretary of Defense

"He's an idiot. It's pointless to convince him of anything. He's gone off the rails. We're in Crazytown." - Trump's Chief of Staff

Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?  His staff is literally hiding papers from him so he won't do stupid shit.  We are way past the point where you can apologize for this.  Start atoning now by vowing to vote better in the future.

And those were his good points!

Nick_Miller

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4024 on: September 04, 2018, 12:34:27 PM »
"He's a fucking moron." - Trump's Secretary of State

"He's just an idiot. He's a dope with the intelligence of a kindergartner." - Trump's National Security Advisor

"It's like he has the understanding of a fifth or sixth grader." - Trump's Secretary of Defense

"He's an idiot. It's pointless to convince him of anything. He's gone off the rails. We're in Crazytown." - Trump's Chief of Staff

Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?  His staff is literally hiding papers from him so he won't do stupid shit.  We are way past the point where you can apologize for this.  Start atoning now by vowing to vote better in the future.

It's hard to admit you were wrong, especially on such a big decision. Trump voters have had SOOOOOOOO many chances to admit they screwed up. I mean, SOOOOOOO many chances. And now we have this, with a President basically saying that members of his party shouldn't be charged because it means the party might lose two races.

And we have a book by a respected journalist, that, even if just 25% of it is true, should cause us all to lose sleep.

But will the Trump voters admit they screwed up? I doubt it, and that's equally terrifying.

I'd like to see just a few MMM forum members who voted for Trump come here and say, "Look I didn't like Hillary. Bernie pointed out her deep deep flaws. So I screwed up and voted for this moron." I would respect that.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:38:40 PM by Nick_Miller »

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4025 on: September 04, 2018, 12:38:13 PM »
its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis.

I realize that you are trying to draw a distinction between US immigration policies and European immigration policies, but this is a thread about the Trump presidency.  A presidency characterized by blatantly racist immigration policies that discriminate based on country of origin and religious beliefs, as proxies for skin tone.  You probably shouldn't be surprised when people assumed you were on-topic when you tried to say Muslims are a problem, because Trump has been saying that for years now.

Woodward's book, like Wolff's book and Omarosa's book, isn't going to surprise anyone by saying that Trump is a bumbling old racist con man.  We all knew that when he ran in 2000, and some of you voted for him anyway.

That's fair, duly noted. The misunderstanding is at least partially my fault. In a way, this unfortunately also demonstrates how some have lost (or never had) the abilities to independently critique, analyse and process information on a case-by-case basis. It's rather fitting that you, one of the more erudite members, was able to spot the distinctions early on. I guess not everyone is equal in abilities.

Anyone read/listened to the Trump-Woodward interview yet?

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4026 on: September 04, 2018, 12:41:27 PM »
I'd like to see just a few MMM forum members who voted for Trump come here and say, "Look I didn't like Hillary and I screwed up voting for this moron." I would respect that.

See:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/does-anyone-regret-voting-republican/

There are also a lot of voting-age people that simply don't participate. Something like 40% of the voting age population stayed home in November 2016.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/05/voting_in_america.html

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4027 on: September 04, 2018, 12:42:05 PM »
Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?  His staff is literally hiding papers from him so he won't do stupid shit. 

If I had to guess, I suppose they see deep state traitors trying to subvert their savior's vision for making America great again.  Trump voters have wholly bought into the nationalist, racist, xenophobic, isolationist, anti-free trade policies that Trump and Fox news have told them are the key to restoring the good old days, when a high school education was all you needed to support your family and black people called you Sir. 

The fact that no nation on Earth has ever prospered under these sorts of backwards-looking policies is irrelevant, because they're not concerned with things like "evidence" or "history".  Trump has told them they are not at fault for their current struggles, and has clearly identified who they should blame.  This has always been a favorite tactic of petty dictators, because it can unify a struggling populace in shared hatred of their chosen scapegoat.  That's a strong motivator for solidarity, at least temporarily. 

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4028 on: September 04, 2018, 01:14:51 PM »
its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis.

I realize that you are trying to draw a distinction between US immigration policies and European immigration policies, but this is a thread about the Trump presidency.  A presidency characterized by blatantly racist immigration policies that discriminate based on country of origin and religious beliefs, as proxies for skin tone.  You probably shouldn't be surprised when people assumed you were on-topic when you tried to say Muslims are a problem, because Trump has been saying that for years now.

Woodward's book, like Wolff's book and Omarosa's book, isn't going to surprise anyone by saying that Trump is a bumbling old racist con man.  We all knew that when he ran in 2000, and some of you voted for him anyway.

That's fair, duly noted. The misunderstanding is at least partially my fault. In a way, this unfortunately also demonstrates how some have lost (or never had) the abilities to independently critique, analyse and process information on a case-by-case basis. It's rather fitting that you, one of the more erudite members, was able to spot the distinctions early on. I guess not everyone is equal in abilities.

Anyone read/listened to the Trump-Woodward interview yet?

?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/donald-trump-bob-woodward-book-interview/index.html

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4029 on: September 04, 2018, 01:30:18 PM »
its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis.

I realize that you are trying to draw a distinction between US immigration policies and European immigration policies, but this is a thread about the Trump presidency.  A presidency characterized by blatantly racist immigration policies that discriminate based on country of origin and religious beliefs, as proxies for skin tone.  You probably shouldn't be surprised when people assumed you were on-topic when you tried to say Muslims are a problem, because Trump has been saying that for years now.

Woodward's book, like Wolff's book and Omarosa's book, isn't going to surprise anyone by saying that Trump is a bumbling old racist con man.  We all knew that when he ran in 2000, and some of you voted for him anyway.

That's fair, duly noted. The misunderstanding is at least partially my fault. In a way, this unfortunately also demonstrates how some have lost (or never had) the abilities to independently critique, analyse and process information on a case-by-case basis. It's rather fitting that you, one of the more erudite members, was able to spot the distinctions early on. I guess not everyone is equal in abilities.

Anyone read/listened to the Trump-Woodward interview yet?

?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/donald-trump-bob-woodward-book-interview/index.html

isn't that a reporting? I was referring to the actual transcript and/or phone call, like:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/transcript-phone-call-between-president-trump-journalist-bob-woodward/?noredirect=on

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/trump-woodward-transcript/index.html

Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4030 on: September 04, 2018, 01:39:31 PM »
its relevant to our discussion regarding the clashes of values between newcomers and host nations regarding the European Migrant Crisis.

I realize that you are trying to draw a distinction between US immigration policies and European immigration policies, but this is a thread about the Trump presidency.  A presidency characterized by blatantly racist immigration policies that discriminate based on country of origin and religious beliefs, as proxies for skin tone.  You probably shouldn't be surprised when people assumed you were on-topic when you tried to say Muslims are a problem, because Trump has been saying that for years now.

Woodward's book, like Wolff's book and Omarosa's book, isn't going to surprise anyone by saying that Trump is a bumbling old racist con man.  We all knew that when he ran in 2000, and some of you voted for him anyway.

That's fair, duly noted. The misunderstanding is at least partially my fault. In a way, this unfortunately also demonstrates how some have lost (or never had) the abilities to independently critique, analyse and process information on a case-by-case basis. It's rather fitting that you, one of the more erudite members, was able to spot the distinctions early on. I guess not everyone is equal in abilities.

Anyone read/listened to the Trump-Woodward interview yet?

?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/donald-trump-bob-woodward-book-interview/index.html

isn't that a reporting? I was referring to the actual transcript and/or phone call, like:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/transcript-phone-call-between-president-trump-journalist-bob-woodward/?noredirect=on

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/trump-woodward-transcript/index.html

Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?

I interpreted your question about "the Trump-Woodward interview" to be about the aforementioned book that Woodward has written about Trump, so I responded with evidence that there was no such interview.

If you're talking about any other discussions they have had, then no, I have not read or listened to them.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4031 on: September 04, 2018, 01:49:59 PM »
Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?
Because then one might have to think, rather than rely on Breitbart for the rightys or MSNBC for the leftys.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4032 on: September 04, 2018, 01:54:38 PM »
Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?
Because then one might have to think, rather than rely on Breitbart for the rightys or MSNBC for the leftys.

Well, you have fun reading transcripts from that non-existent interview.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4033 on: September 04, 2018, 02:13:52 PM »
Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?
Because then one might have to think, rather than rely on Breitbart for the rightys or MSNBC for the leftys.
Well, you have fun reading transcripts from that non-existent interview.
One can take anisotropy's question as generic, not specific.  From that perspective, ....

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4034 on: September 04, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »
Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?
Because then one might have to think, rather than rely on Breitbart for the rightys or MSNBC for the leftys.
Well, you have fun reading transcripts from that non-existent interview.
One can take anisotropy's question as generic, not specific.  From that perspective, ....

Full speed ahead, context be damned!

fuzzy math

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4035 on: September 04, 2018, 02:20:10 PM »
Getting back on task here...

In a full Trump presidency, his advisors might momentarily drop the ball and forget to steal a paper for a bill he shouldn't be signing...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html

Former chief economic adviser Gary Cohn saw a draft letter he considered dangerous to national security on the Oval Office desk.
The letter would have withdrawn the US from a critical trade agreement with South Korea. Trump's aides feared the fallout could jeopardize a top-secret national security program: the ability to detect a North Korean missile launch within just seven seconds.
Woodward reports Cohn was "appalled" that Trump might sign the letter. "I stole it off his desk," Cohn told an associate. "I wouldn't let him see it. He's never going to see that document. Got to protect the country."
Cohn was not alone. Former staff secretary Rob Porter worked with Cohn and used the same tactic on multiple occasions, Woodward writes. In addition to literally stealing or hiding documents from Trump's desk, they sought to stall and delay decisions or distract Trump from orders they thought would endanger national security.
"A third of my job was trying to react to some of the really dangerous ideas that he had and try to give him reasons to believe that maybe they weren't such good ideas," said Porter, who as staff secretary handled the flow of presidential papers until he quit amid domestic violence allegations. He and others acted with the acquiescence of former chief of staff Reince Priebus, Woodward reports.
Woodward describes repeated attempts to bypass Trump as "no less than an administrative coup d'état."

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4036 on: September 04, 2018, 02:25:30 PM »
Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?

A certain type of voter really likes the idea of someone who isn't very smart being in charge.  There has always been an anti-intellectual movement in the US.

You have the libertarians who sold themselves the idea that everyone in government is incompetent as a rule . . . so, Trump in power just feeds their view of how things have always been.

There are the religiously capitalist types (often overlapping with libertarians), who cannot imagine a world where being born with a silver spoon in your mouth means that you'll be rich when you grow up.  Trump has money, and was a businessman . . . therefore he's sort of an archbishop to this crowd.  If he was stupid, the free market wouldn't have given him money to them.

You've got the hard core Republicans, who will vote Republican or die.  It doesn't matter if the president is an Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron to them, or if he breaks every principal that the Republican party claims to fight for.  He's red, they vote red.

There are the Christians, who see him as an easily led idiot in a position of power who will help them enforce their religious views on others . . . because Trump is clearly a tool of God.

You've also got the white power crew . . . and they've never been particularly enamored of intelligent people telling them that they have to work as hard as people who aren't white.  Trump doesn't like shithole Africans, rapist Mexicans, or those damned brown people who are taking everything over, that's good enough.

Don't forget about the hardcore gun nuts. I believe an earlier poster admitted he will support Trump as long as he gets to keep his guns (essentially relying on the often debunked "the left are coming for my guns" nonsense).

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4037 on: September 04, 2018, 02:28:42 PM »
Why read about comments/reports when we can see what's actually being said?
Because then one might have to think, rather than rely on Breitbart for the rightys or MSNBC for the leftys.
Well, you have fun reading transcripts from that non-existent interview.
One can take anisotropy's question as generic, not specific.  From that perspective, ....
Full speed ahead, context be damned!
I find the generic interpretation quite apropos.  If you don't, well, it's a free country.... :)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4038 on: September 04, 2018, 02:30:37 PM »
I think I will reply you once last time on this issue. The European nations also thought the same way in the beginning, about how their laws would work prohibiting undesired behaviors, no matter the new comers upbringings and backgrounds.

Unfortunately they were wrong, and are now taking new steps (actively educating them about acceptable behaviors) to ensure everyone starts on the same page. We should all learn from this, I am merely proposing we do the same, when our time comes.

I understand there is a vetting process in NA and I have no quarrel with that. I have said many many times, my original point was regarding the European situation, not America, please note this key difference. Is it really that hard to tell, 10+ posts in, we are talking about two different host "nations" and two situations?


But why are you so worried about this? There's very little evidence that we are letting in hordes of Sharia-beholden refugees.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/30/key-facts-about-refugees-to-the-u-s/

We let in 39,000 Muslim refugees in 2016.  We have let in Muslim refugees for years.   But I don't think there is any political appetite for letting a million refugees from any country like Germany did.  At the levels we are accustomed to, refugee assimilation seems to be mostly working fine.  You say you are talking about Europe, but then you also say we shouldn't dismiss the possibility in the US. But what series of events do you think would have to happen to increase our refugee program more than 10-fold so that we'd even have to worry about this?

I bet it begins with an F and ends with an X.
Fourplex?
Fix?
Fax?
Flex?
Faux?

:-P


aaahhrealmarcus

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4039 on: September 04, 2018, 02:32:24 PM »
Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?

A certain type of voter really likes the idea of someone who isn't very smart being in charge.  There has always been an anti-intellectual movement in the US.


Remember the kids in school that picked on other kids who studied and earned good grades? A lot of them grew up to be Trump voters.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4040 on: September 04, 2018, 02:33:19 PM »
If you really want the Woodward - Trump telephone transcript, it's on CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/trump-woodward-transcript/index.html

A whole lot of vintage Trump acting like Teflon, but Trump genuinely seems bummed that he didn't get to add his special crazy sauce to the book.  Already goes in to formulating the Tweet - 'book is full of inaccuracies, didn't even interview me'.  But hey, unemployment, GDP, trade, blah blah blah....  I almost feel sorry for Woodward having to witness what is running the country, firsthand.  At least we can sleep at night thinking it surely can't be THAT bad....

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4041 on: September 04, 2018, 02:42:42 PM »
Trump voters: what do you see that the people who work with Trump don't?

A certain type of voter really likes the idea of someone who isn't very smart being in charge.  There has always been an anti-intellectual movement in the US.


Remember the kids in school that picked on other kids who studied and earned good grades? A lot of them grew up to be Trump voters.

OMFG! :D Holy shit, you just nailed that. I think of the kids I went to high school with who are now Trump voters and... yup.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4042 on: September 04, 2018, 02:44:57 PM »
"Devil is in the details" immediately following a sentence which incorrectly describes the ECHR as an EU institution. You might think this is a minor point, but given that you're apparently concerned about Europe's reaction to refugee populations and the Refah Partisi case was about banning an Islamist party within Turkey, I think it's indicative of a possibly deliberate blurring of the lines.

My feelings regarding an ECHR judgement on a radical Islamist party potentially coming into power in Turkey in the middle of the Iraq war are not germane to the discussion, so I'll leave it there.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4043 on: September 04, 2018, 03:09:59 PM »
Getting back on task here...

In a full Trump presidency, his advisors might momentarily drop the ball and forget to steal a paper for a bill he shouldn't be signing...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/04/politics/bob-woodward-book-donald-trump-fear/index.html

Former chief economic adviser Gary Cohn saw a draft letter he considered dangerous to national security on the Oval Office desk.
The letter would have withdrawn the US from a critical trade agreement with South Korea. Trump's aides feared the fallout could jeopardize a top-secret national security program: the ability to detect a North Korean missile launch within just seven seconds.
Woodward reports Cohn was "appalled" that Trump might sign the letter. "I stole it off his desk," Cohn told an associate. "I wouldn't let him see it. He's never going to see that document. Got to protect the country."
Cohn was not alone. Former staff secretary Rob Porter worked with Cohn and used the same tactic on multiple occasions, Woodward writes. In addition to literally stealing or hiding documents from Trump's desk, they sought to stall and delay decisions or distract Trump from orders they thought would endanger national security.
"A third of my job was trying to react to some of the really dangerous ideas that he had and try to give him reasons to believe that maybe they weren't such good ideas," said Porter, who as staff secretary handled the flow of presidential papers until he quit amid domestic violence allegations. He and others acted with the acquiescence of former chief of staff Reince Priebus, Woodward reports.
Woodward describes repeated attempts to bypass Trump as "no less than an administrative coup d'état."

Well, I guess we finally found that Deep State that everyone thinks is preventing Trump from getting anything done... /s

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4044 on: September 04, 2018, 03:13:28 PM »
"Devil is in the details" immediately following a sentence which incorrectly describes the ECHR as an EU institution. You might think this is a minor point, but given that you're apparently concerned about Europe's reaction to refugee populations and the Refah Partisi case was about banning an Islamist party within Turkey, I think it's indicative of a possibly deliberate blurring of the lines.

My feelings regarding an ECHR judgement on a radical Islamist party potentially coming into power in Turkey in the middle of the Iraq war are not germane to the discussion, so I'll leave it there.

It's ECHR and not EUHR. How embarrassing, I stand corrected, thank you for pointing it out.

However, this by no means nullifies my point that denouncing "the discussion of certain immigrants' religious beliefs being incompatible with Western democracy" in a blanket statement is ignoring the findings of ECHR regarding Sharia laws. Which, I dare say, is the consensus.

Whether you like it or not, the ECHR found Sharia laws incompatible with secular democracy, therefore I find your blanket statement banal and pointless.

Regarding the Trump-Woodward exchange, what stood out to me was how much time was devoted to sort out the "No one ever told me" bit. Reminded me of a time when I "forgot" to do something.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 03:20:20 PM by anisotropy »

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4045 on: September 04, 2018, 10:08:28 PM »
"The book vividly recounts the ongoing debate between Trump and his attorneys about whether the president would sit for an interview with Mueller. On March 5, Dowd and Trump attorney Jay Sekulow met in Mueller’s office with the special counsel and his deputy, James Quarles, where Dowd and Sekulow reenacted Trump’s January practice session.
 
Woodward’s book recounts the debate between Trump and his lawyers, including John Dowd, regarding whether the president will sit for an interview with special counsel Robert. S. Mueller III. (Richard Drew/AP)
Dowd then explained to Mueller and Quarles why he was trying to keep the president from testifying: “I’m not going to sit there and let him look like an idiot. And you publish that transcript, because everything leaks in Washington, and the guys overseas are going to say, ‘I told you he was an idiot. I told you he was a goddamn dumbbell. What are we dealing with this idiot for?’ ”

“John, I understand,” Mueller replied, according to Woodward.

Later that month, Dowd told Trump: “Don’t testify. It’s either that or an orange jumpsuit.”

But Trump, concerned about the optics of a president refusing to testify and convinced that he could handle Mueller’s questions, had by then decided otherwise.

“I’ll be a real good witness,” Trump told Dowd, according to Woodward.

“You are not a good witness,” Dowd replied. “Mr. President, I’m afraid I just can’t help you.”

The next morning, Dowd resigned. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bob-woodwards-new-book-reveals-a-nervous-breakdown-of-trumps-presidency/2018/09/04/b27a389e-ac60-11e8-a8d7-0f63ab8b1370_story.html?utm_term=.dde19ceaf4a6

I am glad that we have people who try to protect the country and national interest, but I really wished Dowd would let him testify.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4046 on: September 05, 2018, 05:24:18 AM »

I am glad that we have people who try to protect the country and national interest, but I really wished Dowd would let him testify.

I hear ya, but that would have been attorney negligence on Dowd's part.  From a professional standdpoint he had little choice but to try to convince his client not to testify.
I had similar thoughts about Mattis - he allegedly told everyone to 'stand down' after Trump demanded in a rage that we assassinate Bashar al-Assad and kill his entire administration.  I'm glad there's an 'adult' in the room but when does protecting & serving the country become enabling this president?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4047 on: September 05, 2018, 07:59:25 AM »
A new secret service agent was being sworn in to duty . . . the person performing the ceremony says "Do you swear to do your best to protect the country and follow the commands of the president of the United States?"

The secret service agent gets a worried look on his face and says "Well, which one do you want me to do?"

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4048 on: September 05, 2018, 11:05:59 AM »

I am glad that we have people who try to protect the country and national interest, but I really wished Dowd would let him testify.

I hear ya, but that would have been attorney negligence on Dowd's part.  From a professional standdpoint he had little choice but to try to convince his client not to testify.
I had similar thoughts about Mattis - he allegedly told everyone to 'stand down' after Trump demanded in a rage that we assassinate Bashar al-Assad and kill his entire administration.  I'm glad there's an 'adult' in the room but when does protecting & serving the country become enabling this president?

I totally agree. Those people (who probably thankless and we would never know what they did in the background) deserves to have medals for being the adult in the room. I would imagine some of them are thinking this is the worse job ever and I want to just quit. But then if I quit, who will be the adult in the room?

One of my biggest fear is he act in a rage, and do something that can not be fixed easily (such as launching a missile to North Korea and they retaliate by using nukes, or some other world wide war scenario). Like game of chess, you really need to think several steps in the future and always looking at the big picture, which I really doubt this president have the ability to do so.

A new secret service agent was being sworn in to duty . . . the person performing the ceremony says "Do you swear to do your best to protect the country and follow the commands of the president of the United States?"

The secret service agent gets a worried look on his face and says "Well, which one do you want me to do?"


Ha!

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #4049 on: September 05, 2018, 01:34:47 PM »
I oppose Trump, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with unelected officials taking the kind of steps described in Woodward's book. It sounds like a "shadow" 25th ammendment action to me. My conscience is particularly ill at ease because they sound like steps I agree with (i.e. ones that prevent needless war or harm).