Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 33894 times)

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #400 on: September 28, 2017, 06:22:19 AM »
Can someone please explain why, while we are re-negotiating NAFTA, your President seems to want to start a trade war with Canada?  He put super high duties on softwood lumber a while ago, and now he just put a 220% tariff on Bombardier.  It was bad enough that Boeing was asking for an 80% preferential tariff, but 220%?  Given that the Governors of States who do a lot of business with Canada had already pointed out to him what an important part of your economy we are?  Apart from trade, we must be one of your largest tourist groups.  Ask the Governor of Florida about Snowbirds.

If 80 is good 220 must be better? Trump is a bully and trying to get the upper hand. He will now claim to be a peace maker when that number is renegotiated.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #401 on: September 28, 2017, 06:38:44 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #402 on: September 28, 2017, 08:09:18 AM »
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MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #403 on: September 28, 2017, 08:35:49 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/puerto-rico-seeks-waiver-shipping-restrictions-speed-hurricane-025513424.html

Trump was against waiving the Jones Act...until he waived it.

Yep, with Trump there are countless examples of him saying something during the campaign and then completely reversing course. When someone says they support Trump's policy I don't have the slightest clue what that is. To me saying you would vote for trump again because you always vote Republican has nothing to do with policy. It's straight up blind devotion.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #404 on: September 28, 2017, 08:39:26 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/puerto-rico-seeks-waiver-shipping-restrictions-speed-hurricane-025513424.html

Trump was against waiving the Jones Act...until he waived it.
When someone says they support Trump's policy I don't have the slightest clue what that is. To me saying you would vote for trump again because you always vote Republican has nothing to do with policy. It's straight up blind devotion.

Well, if you're a white nationalist you'd probably have a blind devotion to Trump.  That's about it.

Quote
Yep, with Trump there are countless examples of him saying something during the campaign and then completely reversing course.

He said on Tuesday or Wednesday of this week he wouldn't be waiving the Jones Act.
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JLee

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sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #406 on: September 29, 2017, 04:12:25 AM »
I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.


+1. And now there is report about how he make fun of McCain. You do not make fun of someone because that person is disable/weak/ill. Period.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/meghan-mccain-trump-mockery-john-mccain_us_59ccedeee4b0210dfdfc6521

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #407 on: September 29, 2017, 05:30:12 AM »
I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.


+1. And now there is report about how he make fun of McCain. You do not make fun of someone because that person is disable/weak/ill. Period.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/meghan-mccain-trump-mockery-john-mccain_us_59ccedeee4b0210dfdfc6521

That's really nothing new for Trump. His base will eat it up though.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #408 on: September 29, 2017, 07:52:38 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left. Like, there's a British survey of nationalization making rounds on Twitter right now that suggests a third of Brtis would want to nationalize grocery stores, and half want to nationalize the banks (both ridiculously dangerous policies, the first being reminiscent of one of the biggest 20th century calamities).

Here's the detail here:
http://www.li.com/activities/publications/public-opinion-in-the-post-brexit-era-economic-attitudes-in-modern-britain

The smell test goes off a bit here...I don't know why 20% of people want state-run travel agents?

I worry about those economic issues more than I worry about other issues.

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #409 on: September 29, 2017, 08:04:45 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left. Like, there's a British survey of nationalization making rounds on Twitter right now that suggests a third of Brtis would want to nationalize grocery stores, and half want to nationalize the banks (both ridiculously dangerous policies, the first being reminiscent of one of the biggest 20th century calamities).

Here's the detail here:
http://www.li.com/activities/publications/public-opinion-in-the-post-brexit-era-economic-attitudes-in-modern-britain

The smell test goes off a bit here...I don't know why 20% of people want state-run travel agents?

I worry about those economic issues more than I worry about other issues.

A strong economy is a key requirement for any sort of social justice. Nobody will lift a finger to change anything when they're hungry and have to wait in line for two days for government cheese.




GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #410 on: September 29, 2017, 08:15:49 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left.

Probably best that you never move to another country.  You are aware that both the Democrats and Republicans are pretty far right of center when compared to the rest of the world?


I wouldn't be overly concerned about survey results . .  they nearly always report odd stuff because most people are stupid.  77% of Americans believe in angels, but 40% believe in climate change.  Less than 50% of Americans believe that vaccines have no link to autism.  Your average voter probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.  :P

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #411 on: September 29, 2017, 08:22:52 AM »

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left. Like, there's a British survey of nationalization making rounds on Twitter right now that suggests a third of Brtis would want to nationalize grocery stores, and half want to nationalize the banks (both ridiculously dangerous policies, the first being reminiscent of one of the biggest 20th century calamities).

Here's the detail here:
http://www.li.com/activities/publications/public-opinion-in-the-post-brexit-era-economic-attitudes-in-modern-britain

The smell test goes off a bit here...I don't know why 20% of people want state-run travel agents?

I worry about those economic issues more than I worry about other issues.

I looked at that report but didn't get very far with it because it is very badly written (eg, in the forward " I come at this report with an agenda: I believe that free enterprise policies are a key driver of prosperity. Sadly though, it appears that a large proportion of British voters do not share this view, as illustrated by Transport for London’s decision to suspend Uber’s right to operate and Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell’s wide-ranging plans for nationalisation."  The TfL Uber decision was a quasi-judicial decision made on the facts by a public body which appears to be unpopular with British voters, and McDonnell's plans for nationalisation didn't win Labour the last election, and the first graph omits the option I would have voted for (raise taxes/reduce spending - our deficit is worrying).

The support in the poll for nationalising grocery stores and travel agents (as far as I know even McDonnell is not proposing these?) is at a lower level than the support for President Trump.  Which is to say, if you ask a poll question a sizeable number will probably take one view or the other without much consideration.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #412 on: September 29, 2017, 08:28:07 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left. Like, there's a British survey of nationalization making rounds on Twitter right now that suggests a third of Brtis would want to nationalize grocery stores, and half want to nationalize the banks (both ridiculously dangerous policies, the first being reminiscent of one of the biggest 20th century calamities).

Here's the detail here:
http://www.li.com/activities/publications/public-opinion-in-the-post-brexit-era-economic-attitudes-in-modern-britain

The smell test goes off a bit here...I don't know why 20% of people want state-run travel agents?

I worry about those economic issues more than I worry about other issues.

You vote Republican because of British opinions???

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #413 on: September 29, 2017, 08:48:37 AM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left.

Probably best that you never move to another country.  You are aware that both the Democrats and Republicans are pretty far right of center when compared to the rest of the world?


I wouldn't be overly concerned about survey results . .  they nearly always report odd stuff because most people are stupid.  77% of Americans believe in angels, but 40% believe in climate change.  Less than 50% of Americans believe that vaccines have no link to autism.  Your average voter probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.  :P

Yes, and I think the rest of you guys are crazy :P
I don't think I could live in a non-Anglophone nation after living in the US, and I'm not just talking about the language barrier.
Agreed on the survey results to the extent that it doesn't mean those policies WILL be implemented. The UK has privatized railways apparently, even though the survey says the vast majority support nationalization, for instance. Policies can vary substantially from public opinion (US immigration policy 2000-2006 being a good example). But there's a significant power bloc that WILL support all kinds of central planning policies, and these central planning policies are within living memory. It wasn't all that long ago that the American attempted solution to inflation was to freeze all prices in the nation (and that was a Republican President doing it!).

So it's more suggesting, the Dems have moved left, they have a lot of run-room to move MORE left, and I think they'll be moving more left over the next few cycles. I'm somewhat less concerned about folks like antifa than I am folks like Bernie Sanders.

Quote
You vote Republican because of British opinions???
American culture is an export of a few British sub-cultures, so there are a lot of similarities exist between the two nations. If something can happen in the UK, it can happen in the US as well. Same applies, really, to all the Western cultures.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #414 on: September 29, 2017, 09:48:24 AM »
Haven't rail and bus prices gone way up in the UK since privatization?  Maybe that is a reason.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #415 on: September 29, 2017, 10:05:05 AM »
Yes, and I think the rest of you guys are crazy :P
I don't think I could live in a non-Anglophone nation after living in the US, and I'm not just talking about the language barrier.
Agreed on the survey results to the extent that it doesn't mean those policies WILL be implemented. The UK has privatized railways apparently, even though the survey says the vast majority support nationalization, for instance. Policies can vary substantially from public opinion (US immigration policy 2000-2006 being a good example). But there's a significant power bloc that WILL support all kinds of central planning policies, and these central planning policies are within living memory. It wasn't all that long ago that the American attempted solution to inflation was to freeze all prices in the nation (and that was a Republican President doing it!).

So it's more suggesting, the Dems have moved left, they have a lot of run-room to move MORE left, and I think they'll be moving more left over the next few cycles. I'm somewhat less concerned about folks like antifa than I am folks like Bernie Sanders.

Quote
You vote Republican because of British opinions???

American culture is an export of a few British sub-cultures, so there are a lot of similarities exist between the two nations. If something can happen in the UK, it can happen in the US as well. Same applies, really, to all the Western cultures.
This sounds a lot like another argument I've heard, "Well It's not that I think people should own high capacity assault rifles, but if that gets taken away what's next? I'm afraid they'll take away all of our guns"

This mentality leads to zero compromise politics. What if the best solution is somewhere in the middle but you're so afraid of losing ground in terms of what you perceive as tug-of-war that the only option is one extreme or the other?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #416 on: September 29, 2017, 10:28:33 AM »
Haven't rail and bus prices gone way up in the UK since privatization?  Maybe that is a reason.
There's nothing automatically wrong about a price increase. We have a lot of people here in Chicago whining about increases in parking and tolls after privatization, but that's a good thing. The resources were under-priced before, and the prices needed to increase.

Our train authority plans to increase our rates again next year, after a 10% hike this year...not like governments are themselves immune to price hikes.

Quote
This sounds a lot like another argument I've heard, "Well It's not that I think people should own high capacity assault rifles, but if that gets taken away what's next? I'm afraid they'll take away all of our guns"

This mentality leads to zero compromise politics. What if the best solution is somewhere in the middle but you're so afraid of losing ground in terms of what you perceive as tug-of-war that the only option is one extreme or the other?
I don't believe in zero compromise politics. I think before I've mentioned that I preferred Trump to Cruz because Cruz whipped the Senate into a frenzy and tried to shut down government multiple times. Once people are elected, you have a responsibility to try to arrive at some kind of consensus.

I don't support the current positions of the Dem party, so in your analogy, I am perfectly okay with people owning high-capacity assault magazines. I also think these policies are going to drift even further left-ward than the current positions, so the Dems will also bring back their AWB, and, if allowed, go much further to restrict gun rights (as they did in DC and in Chicago).

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #417 on: September 29, 2017, 01:33:45 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left.

Probably best that you never move to another country.  You are aware that both the Democrats and Republicans are pretty far right of center when compared to the rest of the world?


I wouldn't be overly concerned about survey results . .  they nearly always report odd stuff because most people are stupid.  77% of Americans believe in angels, but 40% believe in climate change.  Less than 50% of Americans believe that vaccines have no link to autism.  Your average voter probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.  :P

You forgot that 12.5 million folks think our country is run by shape shifting reptilians.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #418 on: September 29, 2017, 01:41:19 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

Many of those policies actually evolve. Do you evolve with them or stick with your political party? Serious question.

For example, Trump has no vested interest in renewable energy.  Whereas, the last Republican president (Bush Jr.) actually invested large sums into renewables, specifically wind energy. He even helped set up the DOE loan program that so many Republicans blamed on Obama. Some even refer to him as the "godfather" of wind energy. He saw it as  a great opportunity to create jobs. Meanwhile Trump ran on the platform that investing more in dirty energy will create jobs, which no intelligent person actually believed.

Of course this isn't pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. That standing by typical Republican policy stances are vastly more important than racism, sexism, and even possible nuclear war. I mean I liked 1 or 2 Republican candidates initially, but Trump's desire to treat minorities and women the way he does and gloat about it sways me more than policy.

I just don't get the blind devotion to a single party. I voted for both Republicans and Dems.

I'm young, we'll have to see  how they evolve. Last decade I voted for a few Dem candidates, but I think they've drifted significantly leftward over the last 10 years, and will continue to drift further left. To me that's very concerning, because there's a lot of extremely stupid policies with a lot of currency on the political left.

Probably best that you never move to another country.  You are aware that both the Democrats and Republicans are pretty far right of center when compared to the rest of the world?


I wouldn't be overly concerned about survey results . .  they nearly always report odd stuff because most people are stupid.  77% of Americans believe in angels, but 40% believe in climate change.  Less than 50% of Americans believe that vaccines have no link to autism.  Your average voter probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.  :P

You forgot that 12.5 million folks think our country is run by shape shifting reptilians.

I was only listing some of the silly things that polls report, not the obvious.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #419 on: September 29, 2017, 02:51:29 PM »
I was only listing some of the silly things that polls report, not the obvious.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #420 on: September 29, 2017, 08:17:40 PM »
Your Health Secretary Dr Tom Price has resigned over reports he billed the US taxpayer over $400,000 on private charter flights, instead of flying commercial.

Good to see people being held accountable for their actions.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #421 on: September 29, 2017, 08:32:00 PM »
Your Health Secretary Dr Tom Price has resigned over reports he billed the US taxpayer over $400,000 on private charter flights, instead of flying commercial.

Good to see people being held accountable for their actions.

If this were any functional organization with any evidence of integrity, yes it would be a case of people being held accountable. Sadly, this is just more of the same.  Hundreds of people on the inside are horrified at what a shit show our executive branch has become, and they leak to the press when they see that nothing is being done to control the madness.   Donny junior and his meetings with Russians, as the dumb little shit gleefully expected to find dirt from Russian operatives,  many of  the president's key staff using private email, and a hundred other messes are dealt with once they are exposed, and the press keeps the pressure up, until the administration has no choice but to act.  Trump's obsession with "fake news" is only an issue because, for the first time in his sorry existence, he can't do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and fuck, or fuck over anybody he chooses to, with zero concern for legality, morality, or personal responsibility.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #422 on: September 30, 2017, 08:32:11 AM »
Trump attacking the mayor of San Juan and the citizens of Puerto Rico while golfing this morning. This man is scum.
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MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #423 on: September 30, 2017, 08:37:07 AM »
Trump attacking the mayor of San Juan and the citizens of Puerto Rico while golfing this morning. This man is scum.

Scum is a gross understatement.

Lagom

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #424 on: September 30, 2017, 12:21:58 PM »
Trump attacking the mayor of San Juan and the citizens of Puerto Rico while golfing this morning. This man is scum.

Scum is a gross understatement.

Yet another grossly horrific failure to meet the minimum standards of basic human decency that will be shrugged away by his base. We just have to accept that ~35% of voters actually approve of this sort of behavior, or at a minimum are so blindly hateful towards liberals that they literally don't care what he does as long as it pisses them off.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #425 on: September 30, 2017, 01:02:04 PM »
Trump attacking the mayor of San Juan and the citizens of Puerto Rico while golfing this morning. This man is scum.

Scum is a gross understatement.

Yet another grossly horrific failure to meet the minimum standards of basic human decency that will be shrugged away by his base. We just have to accept that ~35% of voters actually approve of this sort of behavior, or at a minimum are so blindly hateful towards liberals that they literally don't care what he does as long as it pisses them off.

That's so true.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #426 on: September 30, 2017, 02:12:18 PM »
Trump is using the "minorities are lazy" gambit. His base loves it and Puerto Rico doesn't have an electoral vote anyway. It's all upside for him.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #427 on: September 30, 2017, 03:08:22 PM »
But DJT is doing a fantastic job, the best, I heard him say it, it must be true.

aspiringnomad

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #428 on: September 30, 2017, 05:47:07 PM »
Trump is using the "minorities are lazy" gambit. His base loves it and Puerto Rico doesn't have an electoral vote anyway. It's all upside for him.

Until a large contingent migrates and registers to vote in Florida. It's possible given how economically dire things have gotten in Puerto Rico (setting aside the current lack of basic necessities), and there is absolutely nothing Trump could do about it.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #429 on: September 30, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »
Trump is using the "minorities are lazy" gambit. His base loves it and Puerto Rico doesn't have an electoral vote anyway. It's all upside for him.

Until a large contingent migrates and registers to vote in Florida. It's possible given how economically dire things have gotten in Puerto Rico (setting aside the current lack of basic necessities), and there is absolutely nothing Trump could do about it.

Oh, you mean like this?

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/30/trump-attacks-mayor-san-juan-puerto-rico-hurricane-243329


I love the part about how close significant elections have been recently in the state, and how effective Trump is becoming at rallying the troops, as in Puerto Ricans, Latinos, Democrats................................... Keep flapping your pie hole, and banging on the twitter keys like a retarded monkey, Donny. What can go wrong?

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #430 on: September 30, 2017, 06:35:52 PM »
I would leave PR if I was there.  Think of all those new voters pouring in Florida.  Florida turns blue the Repubs have a real problem.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #431 on: October 01, 2017, 11:44:45 AM »
Absolute fucking imbecile. Now he is telling Puerto Ricans not to believe in "fake news media." Hey jackass, they don't have electricty!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353278-former-obama-speechwriter-calls-trump-f-dolt-for-puerto-rico

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #432 on: October 02, 2017, 12:02:25 AM »
This is why I knew Trump would be nominated, and why he'd win,

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair

Note the trendline in the graph with Australia in it.


"If you go back to the early '70s when you had the so-called blue-collar aristocrats, those jobs have slowly crumbled away and many more men are finding themselves in a much more hostile labor market with lower wages, lower quality and less permanent jobs. That's made it harder for them to get married. They don't get to know their own kids. There's a lot of social dysfunction building up over time. There's a sense that these people have lost this sense of status and belonging. And these are classic preconditions for suicide."


They're also preconditions for people looking for something different, politically. And I could see that people would say, "yes he's an idiot, but he's different." Now, of course he is different in presentation and not in practice, since the power of US Presidents is limited. But we see the same in Australia: rising mortality for middle-aged white guys, and rising votes for third parties.


The oompah-loompah is a symptom of the underlying disease of the decline of the West, as free trade, deregulation and privatisation have destroyed our manufacturing economies. We can't all be accountants and baristas. Unless we acknowledge and deal with the underlying causes, we'll just get more Trumps and more Pauline Hansons and similar clowns.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #433 on: October 02, 2017, 06:46:02 AM »
This is why I knew Trump would be nominated, and why he'd win,

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair

Note the trendline in the graph with Australia in it.


"If you go back to the early '70s when you had the so-called blue-collar aristocrats, those jobs have slowly crumbled away and many more men are finding themselves in a much more hostile labor market with lower wages, lower quality and less permanent jobs. That's made it harder for them to get married. They don't get to know their own kids. There's a lot of social dysfunction building up over time. There's a sense that these people have lost this sense of status and belonging. And these are classic preconditions for suicide."


They're also preconditions for people looking for something different, politically. And I could see that people would say, "yes he's an idiot, but he's different." Now, of course he is different in presentation and not in practice, since the power of US Presidents is limited. But we see the same in Australia: rising mortality for middle-aged white guys, and rising votes for third parties.


The oompah-loompah is a symptom of the underlying disease of the decline of the West, as free trade, deregulation and privatisation have destroyed our manufacturing economies. We can't all be accountants and baristas. Unless we acknowledge and deal with the underlying causes, we'll just get more Trumps and more Pauline Hansons and similar clowns.

And yet, they keep voting for Republicans because of the Southern Strategy and the culture wars. The very party that has been at the helm of deregulation and privatization.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #434 on: October 02, 2017, 07:58:31 AM »
There isn't an absolute decline in the West. Things are better than they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Medicine is better, technology is better, homes are better, cars are better, everything is better. I can't think of any Western nations where things have objectively stagnated or regressed in the last 40-50 years.

Maybe there's been some relative decline, but that's offset by the US being dramatically more powerful in the 21st century than the early 20th, and doesn't matter because the rest of the World is catching up to us rather than us regressing to their levels. China has lifted hundreds of millions of people from poverty, which is a great accomplishment, and doesn't mean that we are worse off. It's certainly better than the 70s or the 80s when the Soviets might've just decided to kill us all.

You'll note that Germany and France both see declining "deaths of despair," but AfD captured parliament seats just last weekend, and the National Front in France has been doing better than they ever have been. I don't see Australia as having a growing far-right movement compared to either of those nations. Based on Wiki perusal, this Xenophon team is the newest party, and is roughly equivalent to Michael Bloomberg deciding to start his own party.

Privatization, deregulation, and free trade, make the West better off. There are some losers from trade, as there are losers with any policy. They happen to be geographically concentrated in swing states.


MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #435 on: October 02, 2017, 08:54:18 AM »
This is why I knew Trump would be nominated, and why he'd win,

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair

Note the trendline in the graph with Australia in it.


"If you go back to the early '70s when you had the so-called blue-collar aristocrats, those jobs have slowly crumbled away and many more men are finding themselves in a much more hostile labor market with lower wages, lower quality and less permanent jobs. That's made it harder for them to get married. They don't get to know their own kids. There's a lot of social dysfunction building up over time. There's a sense that these people have lost this sense of status and belonging. And these are classic preconditions for suicide."


They're also preconditions for people looking for something different, politically. And I could see that people would say, "yes he's an idiot, but he's different." Now, of course he is different in presentation and not in practice, since the power of US Presidents is limited. But we see the same in Australia: rising mortality for middle-aged white guys, and rising votes for third parties.


The oompah-loompah is a symptom of the underlying disease of the decline of the West, as free trade, deregulation and privatisation have destroyed our manufacturing economies. We can't all be accountants and baristas. Unless we acknowledge and deal with the underlying causes, we'll just get more Trumps and more Pauline Hansons and similar clowns.

And yet, they keep voting for Republicans because of the Southern Strategy and the culture wars. The very party that has been at the helm of deregulation and privatization.

Ehhhh, it's just easier to blame it on the liberals. Facts be damned

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #436 on: October 03, 2017, 11:16:27 AM »
Apparently PR should stop complaining and be proud because so few people died compared to a real catastrophe like Katrina. How the F&$% is that an appropriate thing to say? "Yeah, PR is destroyed, but you should be grateful for the help because something else terrible has happened."
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353634-trump-puerto-rico-has-thrown-our-budget-a-little-out-of-whack

Quote
“If you looked — every death is a horror, but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what happened here with really a storm that was just totally overbearing, nobody has seen anything like this,” Trump said

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #437 on: October 03, 2017, 11:49:15 AM »
Apparently PR should stop complaining and be proud because so few people died compared to a real catastrophe like Katrina. How the F&$% is that an appropriate thing to say? "Yeah, PR is destroyed, but you should be grateful for the help because something else terrible has happened."
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353634-trump-puerto-rico-has-thrown-our-budget-a-little-out-of-whack

Quote
“If you looked — every death is a horror, but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what happened here with really a storm that was just totally overbearing, nobody has seen anything like this,” Trump said

WTF

Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #438 on: October 03, 2017, 12:14:37 PM »
Apparently PR should stop complaining and be proud because so few people died compared to a real catastrophe like Katrina. How the F&$% is that an appropriate thing to say? "Yeah, PR is destroyed, but you should be grateful for the help because something else terrible has happened."
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353634-trump-puerto-rico-has-thrown-our-budget-a-little-out-of-whack

Quote
“If you looked — every death is a horror, but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what happened here with really a storm that was just totally overbearing, nobody has seen anything like this,” Trump said

WTF


Puerto Rico threw our budget out of whack, so I guess Texas and Florida didn't cost anything?
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infogoon

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #439 on: October 03, 2017, 02:37:26 PM »
At least he told the hurricane survivors that their weather is "second to none".

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #440 on: October 03, 2017, 04:24:08 PM »
At least he told the hurricane survivors that their weather is "second to none".

Come on... give the guy and gal a break :)

At least this time no USA and FLOTUS hat this time. Imagine what kind of fake news these hats would generate if he is trying to promote his hats to people who "threw our budget out of whack". That would just be outrageous!

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #441 on: October 03, 2017, 09:03:46 PM »
There isn't an absolute decline in the West. Things are better than they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. [...]
Privatization, deregulation, and free trade, make the West better off. There are some losers from trade, as there are losers with any policy. They happen to be geographically concentrated in swing states.
This is the response of a salaried person with a tertiary education, and such people tend to do well whatever the economy is like, whether up or down, free trade or protected, liberal or communist.

A waged person without a tertiary education will view things differently, since they will be among the "some losers" you casually dismiss.

The continued failure of the salaried educated classes to recognise the inherent problems in the system they have benefited from will ensure more fruit loops arise. Through history we can see that it is in the nature of elites to destroy themselves - by getting greedy and insulating themselves from reality with a wall of personal guards and yes-men - and the middle classes follow the elites.
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #442 on: October 04, 2017, 08:06:04 AM »
There isn't an absolute decline in the West. Things are better than they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. [...]
Privatization, deregulation, and free trade, make the West better off. There are some losers from trade, as there are losers with any policy. They happen to be geographically concentrated in swing states.
This is the response of a salaried person with a tertiary education, and such people tend to do well whatever the economy is like, whether up or down, free trade or protected, liberal or communist.

A waged person without a tertiary education will view things differently, since they will be among the "some losers" you casually dismiss.

The continued failure of the salaried educated classes to recognise the inherent problems in the system they have benefited from will ensure more fruit loops arise. Through history we can see that it is in the nature of elites to destroy themselves - by getting greedy and insulating themselves from reality with a wall of personal guards and yes-men - and the middle classes follow the elites.

This must be why Trump is so reviled by the non-salaried, uneducated.  After all, he was born an elite to an elite father . . . the vast majority of his successes are due to the fortune he started with, not his own work.  He has also steadily implemented policies that are good for the elite and bad for the poor.

Wait, his largest base is among that group you say?  Hmmm . . . maybe there's something wrong with the theory.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #443 on: October 04, 2017, 08:08:29 AM »
There isn't an absolute decline in the West. Things are better than they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. [...]
Privatization, deregulation, and free trade, make the West better off. There are some losers from trade, as there are losers with any policy. They happen to be geographically concentrated in swing states.
This is the response of a salaried person with a tertiary education, and such people tend to do well whatever the economy is like, whether up or down, free trade or protected, liberal or communist.

A waged person without a tertiary education will view things differently, since they will be among the "some losers" you casually dismiss.

The continued failure of the salaried educated classes to recognise the inherent problems in the system they have benefited from will ensure more fruit loops arise. Through history we can see that it is in the nature of elites to destroy themselves - by getting greedy and insulating themselves from reality with a wall of personal guards and yes-men - and the middle classes follow the elites.

This must be why Trump is so reviled by the non-salaried, uneducated.  After all, he was born an elite to an elite father . . . the vast majority of his successes are due to the fortune he started with, not his own work.  He has also steadily implemented policies that are good for the elite and bad for the poor.

Wait, his largest base is among that group you say?  Hmmm . . . maybe there's something wrong with the theory.

Yes, but Trump is a vulgarian and a boob with a chip on his shoulder who loves to bully a lot of the same people that the conservative poor hate. He talks a super-good blue collar game, if you aren't paying attention and don't actually want any details about how he's gonna do it -- you just want a lot of language about how he's gonna stick it to people you hate.

And most of his voters aren't paying attention.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 08:29:07 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #444 on: October 04, 2017, 08:46:31 AM »
Having Trump as President is like having no leadership at all.  Whenever a tremendous historical opportunity presents itself, he produces a few inflammatory or irrelevant Tweets and then goes off to shoot a round of golf.  He doesn't seem to mind flying around for photo ops, but there is no substance or lasting impact.  It's astonishing that there is nothing else there to fill in the vacuum, Congress certainly hasn't become organized and galvanized by these recent events.  They seem scared to stick their neck out of their turtle shells.

My idealistic teenage self thought America not having leadership would be kind of interesting - power back to the people (with the expectation that the people could do better if government shrunk and kept out of the way), but now, not so much.  I'm not taking my family to any concerts or large gathernings anytime soon, I'm not expecting government to do much for hurricane victims now that the intial publicity has died down and the hard work continues, and I'm not holding my breath President Trump will be any different in 2020 so I'm doing my best to ignore him.
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RangerOne

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #445 on: October 04, 2017, 07:34:23 PM »
There isn't an absolute decline in the West. Things are better than they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. [...]
Privatization, deregulation, and free trade, make the West better off. There are some losers from trade, as there are losers with any policy. They happen to be geographically concentrated in swing states.
This is the response of a salaried person with a tertiary education, and such people tend to do well whatever the economy is like, whether up or down, free trade or protected, liberal or communist.

A waged person without a tertiary education will view things differently, since they will be among the "some losers" you casually dismiss.

The continued failure of the salaried educated classes to recognise the inherent problems in the system they have benefited from will ensure more fruit loops arise. Through history we can see that it is in the nature of elites to destroy themselves - by getting greedy and insulating themselves from reality with a wall of personal guards and yes-men - and the middle classes follow the elites.

This has truth to it. Some economists note that the populist left and right wing shifts in the politics of both America and European countries is some of the first tangible evidence that the globalization experiment is not sustainable without significant modification. Enough people are getting fucked that it is starting to change voting patterns.

Unfortunately things will probably still have to get a lot worse before any tries to change this system enough to truly help the people getting left behind. Unfortunately I don't think we can simply bring lost jobs back or revert shun the global community to improve things at home.

Its going to take some radical action and re-thinking to give citizens purpose and hope back with regards to income and job prospects. And there is also the reality that we are likely moving towards a future where human labor is simply not needed in any quantity that can justify today concept of full employment. People of the future, if we are successful, will likely work less and have more leisure time. This could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how we chose to balance that new society and what we do with the additional free time.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #446 on: October 04, 2017, 07:39:14 PM »
This must be why Trump is so reviled by the non-salaried, uneducated.  After all, he was born an elite to an elite father . . . the vast majority of his successes are due to the fortune he started with, not his own work.  He has also steadily implemented policies that are good for the elite and bad for the poor.

Wait, his largest base is among that group you say?  Hmmm . . . maybe there's something wrong with the theory.
It's not a matter of what his background was. After all, Marx spent a large chunk of his life mooching off his friends, and many Russian nobles supported the Bolshevik revolution. It's a matter of who he spoke to, and in what ways.

Let's look a few centuries back to Machiavelli's Discourses, Chapter 53.

Quote
That the People, deceived by a false show of Advantage, often desire what would be their Ruin; and that large Hopes and brave Promises easily move them. [...]

Two points are here to be noted. First, that a people deceived by a false show of advantage will often labour for its own destruction; and, unless convinced by some one whom it trusts, that the course on which it is bent is pernicious, and that some other is to be preferred, will bring infinite danger and injury upon the State. And should it so happen, as sometimes is the case, that from having been deceived before, either by men or by events, there is none in whom the people trust, their ruin is inevitable. [...]

In considering what courses it is easy, and what it is difficult to persuade a people to follow, this distinction may be drawn: Either what you would persuade them to, presents on the face of it a semblance of gain or loss, or it seems a spirited course or a base one. When any proposal submitted to the people holds out promise of advantage, or seems to them a spirited course to take, though loss lie hid behind, nay, though the ruin of their country be involved in it, they will always be easily led to adopt it; whereas it will always be difficult to persuade the adoption of such courses as wear the appearance of disgrace or loss, even though safety and advantage be bound up with them.


He was speaking mostly of military affairs, giving the example of Fabian's caution being scorned by the people, and other commanders' rash attacks being preferred, though the latter led to misery and defeat. But the same applies in all public affairs.


Trump is indeed an elite. But so are all who propose themselves for such an office. A gardener or janitor isn't becoming US President, however worthy they may be. So the people can't choose someone like them, they must choose someone who at least says what they want to hear. And he did that very effectively.


He was lying, of course, but the people are used to that, so they have nothing to lose in their choice.
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scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #447 on: October 05, 2017, 04:07:25 PM »
Here's something different.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-gop-is-on-its-deathbed/article36481644/

Back around the turn of the century there were 2 right wing political parties in Canada.   The "Progressive Conservative" party (yes it's an oxymoron) and the "Reform" party - something like a tea party light.   After defeat at the hands of the Liberal party, both parties were in trouble and they merged to form the "Conservative Party".    Unfortunately the reformers had the upper hand and we were stuck with the likes of Stephen Harper, John Baird, Tony Clement and others.

The author draws an analogy to recent Canadian history and speculates that Trump and his ilk will gradually take over the Republican party in the states, much as Harper and his ilk did in Canada.

In the end, we've had other political leaders stand up and things are more or less back to normal in Canada after 10 years of having the Conservative Party in power.    They weren't nearly as bad as Trump mind you.    They just had some... overly conservative ideas.    And not very much fiscal responsibility.    The current Liberal party isn't much better in terms of fiscal responsibility, mind you.

Eventually I expect the US federal government will go back to something approaching normal as more people tire of Trump and come out to vote in order to suppress his base and his political allies.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #448 on: October 08, 2017, 12:04:03 AM »
If there is a tape, I hope this video would be made public! I bet it is much more anticipated and watched than final season of GoT!

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-russia-golden-shower-dossier-679973
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:05:57 AM by sequoia »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #449 on: October 08, 2017, 11:47:55 AM »
More of what the Trump Presidency is about. Not a lot of protest against this sort of thing, I guess because they aren't rich black athletes kneeling for a cause.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/10/07/richard-spencer-leads-another-torchlight-march-in-charlottesville/?utm_term=.418964ffcd30