Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 342217 times)

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3600 on: August 16, 2018, 08:17:34 PM »
For the reason I came to this thread, I speculate that Trump, Trumpism, and Trumpistas have completely lost me as of today. Now while I generally aspire to liberal ideas, I am also generally moderate, and occasionally with some libertarian and even conservative ideas. When Trump won the election he said he would be president for all Americans and I am generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt more than I perhaps should, so I said OK what the heck. As of today, I think all my leanings are united.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/16/us-military-parade-originally-scheduled-for-november-is-delayed-to-2019-pentagon-says.html
What kind of commander in chief wants to spend $100,000,000 on a parade because he wants his military to emulate the French military?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/15/desperate-anti-trump-media-elevate-strange-trio-to-discredit-president.html
What kind of loser would hire Omarosa four times, the last time into the White House after knowing about the first three?
What kind of person would associate with, pay for services of, and defend a corrupt lawyer for decades?
What pseudo conservative would cheat on a pregnant wife with a porn star and then pay her cover up money?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/mcraven-trump-brennan-security-clearance-revoke/index.html
Between these two, which is anti-American?

These are all direct actions of the current President himself, there is no need for any media spin at all. These are all minor events in the grander scheme of current events, but the sudden confluence and general continuation has snapped the last few threads of anti-establishmentism or conservatism that may have tied me to Trump or any elected official who may be beholden to his primary voters at any point.


marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3601 on: August 17, 2018, 05:15:51 AM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 


It could just be "luck", but I don't think many of you believe in luck either. 


I don't like Trump, so we still have that in common.  ;)

It's actually pretty common to become less sensitive to poison ivy as you age. Could just be a matter of timing.


Your mum always said you'd grow out of these things.

This is a little old but researchers have found an immune molecule in your skin that is sensitive to the active compounds in poison ivy.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160823103242.htm

I would be keen to see a follow up article to see how the research progressed but I could not find one while doing a quick google.

It definitely was not the water. Sorry.

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talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3603 on: August 17, 2018, 07:17:57 AM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

Most of the ingredients listed are not liquid, so with these solids what does the measurement mean?




You guys don't even know how to read the ingredients, but you're positive that it doesn't work. 

I read the part that said "Poison Ivy" take 3-6 drops on your tongue.  I did it and haven't had poison ivy since.  I don't care what you use for poison ivy. 


Let's get back to explaing to each other that Trump's an unfit leader.  We can agree that. 

I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.

I don't think this is what 's happening. What we're seeing is Trump using the tools of the Presidency to bend and alter reality through altering public opinion. Republicans believe things because he believes them. Society is being cleaved by his usage of words, which do not convey facts, but to establish a social hierarchy of allies and outsiders.

But some intellectual Trump supporters--for example Dilbert Creator Scott Adams--have argued that society actually depends on people believing in these fantasies, and they must often be fantasies that conflict with others' fantasies. You'll note that I used the word "cleave" which can mean either to break apart or to fasten together. Many more people would engage in violence or de-stabilizing behaviors if they understood the facts as they are than do so when they buy into the various fantasies, one of the most important being the relative mobility of society.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3604 on: August 17, 2018, 07:31:05 AM »
For the reason I came to this thread, I speculate that Trump, Trumpism, and Trumpistas have completely lost me as of today. Now while I generally aspire to liberal ideas, I am also generally moderate, and occasionally with some libertarian and even conservative ideas. When Trump won the election he said he would be president for all Americans and I am generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt more than I perhaps should, so I said OK what the heck. As of today, I think all my leanings are united.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/16/us-military-parade-originally-scheduled-for-november-is-delayed-to-2019-pentagon-says.html
What kind of commander in chief wants to spend $100,000,000 on a parade because he wants his military to emulate the French military?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/15/desperate-anti-trump-media-elevate-strange-trio-to-discredit-president.html
What kind of loser would hire Omarosa four times, the last time into the White House after knowing about the first three?
What kind of person would associate with, pay for services of, and defend a corrupt lawyer for decades?
What pseudo conservative would cheat on a pregnant wife with a porn star and then pay her cover up money?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/mcraven-trump-brennan-security-clearance-revoke/index.html
Between these two, which is anti-American?

These are all direct actions of the current President himself, there is no need for any media spin at all. These are all minor events in the grander scheme of current events, but the sudden confluence and general continuation has snapped the last few threads of anti-establishmentism or conservatism that may have tied me to Trump or any elected official who may be beholden to his primary voters at any point.

As far as a parade, he has wanted this ever since he came in to Office to honor the military. SecDef keeps talking him out of it. Although I agree it is a waste of resources, I think there are far more dangerous parades taking place. How much is spent policing ANTIFA? He sees public acknowledgement of our forces as something good for the nation and that I agree with.

Omarosa, I agree. He should have dropped her a long time ago. He saw ambition and potential but it certainly worked against him. I see her failed opportunities as a huge failure on her part, just as much as his. Many of his picks end up bad, yes I am agreeing, but many are also great. Mattis, Haley, Carson, are just amongst my top favorites but I think he is doing well in his overall hiring.

I imagine many politicians have questionable lawyers. I would be surprised if they did not. There is not a doubt in my mind that Holder and Lynch would have done anything to protect their President. Trump certainly does not have that luxury as evident by the unprecedented raids and seizures on his confidants. I think we would have found dirt on anyone if they were investigated to this extent. Raid the lawyer of any top politician and scrutinize every file, then compare lawyers.

President Trump should be tried for adultery based on proof, just as anyone for any crime. Just because it happened a decade ago, it is still a crime and if you feel there is sufficient evidence, I look forward to the prosecution.

As far as Brennan goes, he was the quarterback of Obama's drone program and a frequent user of "Questionable interrogations" both of which some find unethical. Yes he served his country but he works for a media outlet branch of Universal Studios. He is very vocally against the current administration and he does not need access to Top Secret assets to advise for his current job. Furthermore he did play a critical role in the ongoing investigation against the President. I cannot fathom a scenario where his Top Secret Access is relevant, or good for America if he wants to change ongoing policy and direction.

I think he is representing "all Americans" the best he can and there are many positives that never make it to MSM. I am looking at mid-terms and many he endorses are getting voted for. I do not see much traffic regarding accomplishments, and potential replacements that would execute different / better policies. I want secure borders, I think America benefits from jobs over welfare. I believe that drugs are dangerous and those that solicit them are dangerous to society. I support the military and police, heck BLM Chicago is still pushing for more police limitations despite cries from their own citizens. ANTIFA is not free speech, they are anarchists that should be arrested as soon as they show up masked. White nationals, despicable. I do think the President should do more to distance himself, hateful race groups of all kinds are only Rubbing Raw the Sores of Discontent and should monitored carefully. Free speech wasn't free to those dying while fighting for it.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3605 on: August 17, 2018, 07:37:27 AM »
The parade is cancelled.  I am so disappointed.  I wanted to see ICBMs rolling down Pennsylvania Avenue.  Maybe Space Force can do a flyover instead.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3606 on: August 17, 2018, 07:41:31 AM »
I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.

I don't think this is what 's happening. What we're seeing is Trump using the tools of the Presidency to bend and alter reality through altering public opinion. Republicans believe things because he believes them. Society is being cleaved by his usage of words, which do not convey facts, but to establish a social hierarchy of allies and outsiders.

But some intellectual Trump supporters--for example Dilbert Creator Scott Adams--have argued that society actually depends on people believing in these fantasies, and they must often be fantasies that conflict with others' fantasies. You'll note that I used the word "cleave" which can mean either to break apart or to fasten together. Many more people would engage in violence or de-stabilizing behaviors if they understood the facts as they are than do so when they buy into the various fantasies, one of the most important being the relative mobility of society.

Objective reality exists, and isn't altered no matter how many lies you tell.  When Trump says that there are wildfires in California because all the water to fight them is being pumped into the ocean, that is objectively a lie.  Trump's words convey anti-facts.

If enough people are gullible fools it's certainly possible to alter what they believe by telling them lies, and Trump is capitalizing on this subset of Americans.  My hope is that there is at least a majority of the population capable of logically approaching a problem, fact checking things, and coming to a reasonable conclusion.  I outright and vehemently reject the notion that living in society depends on believing fantasy and lies.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3607 on: August 17, 2018, 07:55:35 AM »
As far as a parade, he has wanted this ever since he came in to Office to honor the military. SecDef keeps talking him out of it. Although I agree it is a waste of resources, I think there are far more dangerous parades taking place. How much is spent policing ANTIFA? He sees public acknowledgement of our forces as something good for the nation and that I agree with.

The president says he wants to 'honour the military' by having a parade . . . but the representative of the military doesn't want the parade.
 Is forcing someone to do something that you want but they don't a way to honor them?  I can think of many better ways to honour the military without wasting the cash on a parade . . . how about fixing veterans affairs?  Providing better psychological and medical care for people who have served?  Campaigning to raise pay for those in the service?  Improving diplomacy so that there's less need to risk their lives?  Closing illegal military run torture facilities like Guantanamo Bay?  Any of these actions would better honor the military than a public parade.

There's also the false equivalency being drawn between the costs of a military parade held at the whim of the president of the United States and the cost free speech of citizens (which includes policing protests organized by private individuals).

President Trump should be tried for adultery based on proof, just as anyone for any crime. Just because it happened a decade ago, it is still a crime and if you feel there is sufficient evidence, I look forward to the prosecution.

Oddly enough, I'm coming to the President's defense on this one.  While I personally find the fact that he has regularly (and demonstrably) cheated on each of his wives repugnant, I don't see why this behaviour should be illegal in any way.  Who you fuck is your own business, and your personal relationships shouldn't be policed by courts.

I think he is representing "all Americans" the best he can

This is entirely possible.  Donald Trump may simply be so incompetent that he's incapable of doing the job he has won without causing lasting (and possibly irreparable) harm to the US.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:59:04 AM by GuitarStv »

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3608 on: August 17, 2018, 08:07:38 AM »
I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.

I don't think this is what 's happening. What we're seeing is Trump using the tools of the Presidency to bend and alter reality through altering public opinion. Republicans believe things because he believes them. Society is being cleaved by his usage of words, which do not convey facts, but to establish a social hierarchy of allies and outsiders.

But some intellectual Trump supporters--for example Dilbert Creator Scott Adams--have argued that society actually depends on people believing in these fantasies, and they must often be fantasies that conflict with others' fantasies. You'll note that I used the word "cleave" which can mean either to break apart or to fasten together. Many more people would engage in violence or de-stabilizing behaviors if they understood the facts as they are than do so when they buy into the various fantasies, one of the most important being the relative mobility of society.

Objective reality exists, and isn't altered no matter how many lies you tell.  When Trump says that there are wildfires in California because all the water to fight them is being pumped into the ocean, that is objectively a lie.  Trump's words convey anti-facts.

If enough people are gullible fools it's certainly possible to alter what they believe by telling them lies, and Trump is capitalizing on this subset of Americans.  My hope is that there is at least a majority of the population capable of logically approaching a problem, fact checking things, and coming to a reasonable conclusion.  I outright and vehemently reject the notion that living in society depends on believing fantasy and lies.

I read all of these posts. I am looking for better solutions. Who would you want in the White House, and let's speculate about the future Presidency that you think would be best for America. The reasons that many do not like him are well documented. When the mid terms roll around, and ultimately the Presidential election in 2020 what future do you want? What should the priorities of the nation be and who can accomplish this? I get that it is easiest to default to the "people that disagree are not intelligent" argument. But I have yet to see a discussion from the intelligent side regarding a better option. I would rather see "I don't like xxx, I would rather see xxx happen, this is the person that could bring the change I propose"

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3609 on: August 17, 2018, 08:09:58 AM »
"I think he is doing well in his overall hiring"  yes, Trump only hires the "best people" Manafort, Steve Mnuchin, Brenda Fitzgerald, Scott Pruitt, Ronny Jackson, Tom Price, Rob Porter, Steve Bannon, Scaramucchi, Reince Preibus, Omarosa, Bill Shine... I'm sure I'm missing a few. One of the worse we still have, is the so called "education" secretary DeVos, who is less educated and knowlegeable on public schools and education than a random teacher being paid 35K a year. There's probably a million people more qualified than her to be secretary of education. Malignant neglect. 

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3610 on: August 17, 2018, 08:12:02 AM »
Okay, how about this for a start.  No more celebrities as President.  Additionally, I would like some minimal basic competence.  Intelligence and intellectual curiosity would be nice too.  Emotional stability is a plus.  Any experience whatsoever in governance or public policy would be just great. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3611 on: August 17, 2018, 08:22:46 AM »
Ematicic I think one of the first things we can do, is make sure we have fair, secure, and transparant elections. According to outsider reviews we no longer have that. It is the bedrock of our democracy. We need to root out what any outside or inside influences are doing to have protections in place so that our upcoming election are not tampered or compromised with (so far Trump is refusing to do action on this). Also, people need to be informed about the issues, and feel like their vote matterss. My state (NC) it is so gerrymandered, many people do not vote because they feel their vote does not "count". NC AT&T, one of the larger black majority university in our state, is literally divided down the middle, each half being drawn in a Republican held district. It's not an accident. I think every state should have an Independent, non-political committee to redraw districts if need be due to population changes. The requirements of needing IDs to vote sounds like a good one on the surface, but the way it is implemented (other countries mail you your ID if they require one) the burden is on the person. In my state there are 4, 5 hour wait lines in traditionally democratic counties to get IDs. Voter suppression is un-democratic. So before we talk about policy issues, we need to be honest and deal with the erosion of democracy in this country.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:26:12 AM by partgypsy »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3612 on: August 17, 2018, 08:28:44 AM »

As far as Brennan goes, he was the quarterback of Obama's drone program and a frequent user of "Questionable interrogations" both of which some find unethical. Yes he served his country but he works for a media outlet branch of Universal Studios. He is very vocally against the current administration and he does not need access to Top Secret assets to advise for his current job. Furthermore he did play a critical role in the ongoing investigation against the President. I cannot fathom a scenario where his Top Secret Access is relevant, or good for America if he wants to change ongoing policy and direction.

Regarding Brennan:

"Few Americans have done more to protect this country than John. He is a man of unparalleled integrity, whose honesty and character have never been in question, except by those who donít know him."

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Do you know John Brennan? Do your credentials compare to Admiral McRaven's?

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3613 on: August 17, 2018, 08:38:30 AM »
Our discussion is already splintering in a lot of directions, but I want to add one more:

A lot of number-crunchers are giving the Democrats a 50-80% chance of taking control of the House in November. But they might not.

If the Republicans can hold their unified government, do you think stocks will surge?

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3614 on: August 17, 2018, 08:40:22 AM »
The reason that Trump revoking security clearances for former employees and private individuals, is that security clearances (either the granting or revoking of them) is NOT supposed to be political, but entirely due to national security concerns. Trump himself has stated that he revoked Brennan's security clearance as retailiation to Brennan's views, and opens the door to him to continue to revoke clearances on his political enemies. Not only a constitutional violation of freedom of speech, having Trump demand loyalty to him over country, does not bode well for the future of our country.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/john-brennan-security-clearance-raises-constitutional-concerns/

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3615 on: August 17, 2018, 08:52:43 AM »



I read all of these posts. I am looking for better solutions. Who would you want in the White House, and let's speculate about the future Presidency that you think would be best for America. The reasons that many do not like him are well documented. When the mid terms roll around, and ultimately the Presidential election in 2020 what future do you want? What should the priorities of the nation be and who can accomplish this? I get that it is easiest to default to the "people that disagree are not intelligent" argument. But I have yet to see a discussion from the intelligent side regarding a better option. I would rather see "I don't like xxx, I would rather see xxx happen, this is the person that could bring the change I propose"

How about requiring (probably not through legislation, but through agreement of the political parties) that all Presidential candidates should be subjected to a government security check appropriate to top level access, the results (pass/fail and reasons for failure) to be made public, and release the last three years of their tax returns?

If enough people are gullible fools it's certainly possible to alter what they believe by telling them lies, and Trump is capitalizing on this subset of Americans.  My hope is that there is at least a majority of the population capable of logically approaching a problem, fact checking things, and coming to a reasonable conclusion.  I outright and vehemently reject the notion that living in society depends on believing fantasy and lies.


Almost all human beings are "gullible fools" if by that you mean that they are susceptible to believing the messages they receive.  Advertising, both political and otherwise, is a billion dollar industry built on this fact.  In a society where "free speech" includes the freedom to subvert democracy for financial and/or political gain I suspect it will be near impossible to solve this problem.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3616 on: August 17, 2018, 09:02:25 AM »
I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.

I don't think this is what 's happening. What we're seeing is Trump using the tools of the Presidency to bend and alter reality through altering public opinion. Republicans believe things because he believes them. Society is being cleaved by his usage of words, which do not convey facts, but to establish a social hierarchy of allies and outsiders.

But some intellectual Trump supporters--for example Dilbert Creator Scott Adams--have argued that society actually depends on people believing in these fantasies, and they must often be fantasies that conflict with others' fantasies. You'll note that I used the word "cleave" which can mean either to break apart or to fasten together. Many more people would engage in violence or de-stabilizing behaviors if they understood the facts as they are than do so when they buy into the various fantasies, one of the most important being the relative mobility of society.

Objective reality exists, and isn't altered no matter how many lies you tell.  When Trump says that there are wildfires in California because all the water to fight them is being pumped into the ocean, that is objectively a lie.  Trump's words convey anti-facts.

If enough people are gullible fools it's certainly possible to alter what they believe by telling them lies, and Trump is capitalizing on this subset of Americans.  My hope is that there is at least a majority of the population capable of logically approaching a problem, fact checking things, and coming to a reasonable conclusion.  I outright and vehemently reject the notion that living in society depends on believing fantasy and lies.

I read all of these posts. I am looking for better solutions. Who would you want in the White House, and let's speculate about the future Presidency that you think would be best for America. The reasons that many do not like him are well documented. When the mid terms roll around, and ultimately the Presidential election in 2020 what future do you want? What should the priorities of the nation be and who can accomplish this?

Priorities of the nation?  In no particular order, off the top of my head you could start in this general area:
- Repair and rebuild failing infrastructure
- Improve environmental regulations and invest in clean energy
- Provide basic health care (including mental health care) to all citizens
- Stop illegal military actions (drone strikes, torture facilities, etc.)
- Reduce military spending
- Roll back corporate tax breaks
- Prevent obvious subversion of the electoral process (gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics should be illegal)
- Provide better transition training for people who are in dead or decaying industrial sectors
- Overhaul the prison system with an eye towards rehabilitation and reduced recurrence of crimes rather than punitive punishment.
- Overhaul the legal system with an eye towards reduced incarceration, particularly regarding less wealthy citizens.  (For example, speeding tickets should not be a fixed price, but should be charged based upon a percentage of the person's net worth.  That sort of thing.)
- Create a standards committee to fact check news outlets.  For a second before a news broadcast, or at the top of a news webpage, the overall fact check results must be displayed to give viewers information about the accuracy of the source they're getting information from.



I get that it is easiest to default to the "people that disagree are not intelligent" argument.

It may well be, but if you'll re-read my post this is not an argument I made.  My argument was that if you're willing to overlook objective reality to embrace lies you are not intelligent.  Hopefully we can agree upon this?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 09:04:17 AM by GuitarStv »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3617 on: August 17, 2018, 09:38:03 AM »
The parade is cancelled.  I am so disappointed.  I wanted to see ICBMs rolling down Pennsylvania Avenue.  Maybe Space Force can do a flyover instead.

As a long-time DC native, I would only sign off on a parade if they didn't close off any streets and made all of the participants in the parade sit through the same horrific traffic we all endure on a daily basis.  Imagine: a line of tanks slowly crawling down Pennsylvania ave, suddenly cut off by some Uber driver and forced to stop repeatedly as tourists walk in front of them to get the best vantage for selfies. 

No vehicle (armored or not) should be able to traverse the ~ 12 blocks of Pennsylvania Ave during the daytime in anything less than 30 minutes and must get held up at a minimum of 6 red lights.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3618 on: August 17, 2018, 09:39:59 AM »
Of course I don't want to believe something that is untrue.

But information is expensive. It takes time and effort to collect and analyze. I have to make peace with the fact that I probably believe many things that are untrue simply because I cannot afford the diligence it would take to properly test these beliefs. And society has to function in the meantime.

Rather than demand I eradicate all false beliefs, why can I not design a structure for my life that will be robust to being wrong about certain things, particularly when predicting the future is essential for many of the most important decisions?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3619 on: August 17, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
Of course I don't want to believe something that is untrue.

But information is expensive. It takes time and effort to collect and analyze. I have to make peace with the fact that I probably believe many things that are untrue simply because I cannot afford the diligence it would take to properly test these beliefs. And society has to function in the meantime.

Rather than demand I eradicate all false beliefs, why can I not design a structure for my life that will be robust to being wrong about certain things, particularly when predicting the future is essential for many of the most important decisions?

You can.  For example, when people have a track record of regularly lying about things (like the current President) you can default to not believing them.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3620 on: August 17, 2018, 09:53:16 AM »
Okay, how about this for a start.  No more celebrities as President.  Additionally, I would like some minimal basic competence.  Intelligence and intellectual curiosity would be nice too.  Emotional stability is a plus.  Any experience whatsoever in governance or public policy would be just great.

Republicans: the next time your party nominates a buffoon of questionable intelligence and you find yourself justifying your vote with "oh-he'll hire smart people to help him", I want you to remember how that worked out the last two times you said it.  We are starting to think that this approach is flawed.

My current favorite is Rick Perry as Energy Secretary.  Remarkably, HE IS ONE OF THE BETTER CABINET MEMBERS.  Remember when he wanted to get rid of the department he is running, except he forgot its name (and then blamed painkillers)?  Remember when he started and the staff members had to gently explain to him what the department actually did?  Remember when Obama appointed an actual Nobel prize-winning physicist as Secretary of Energy instead of a dim bulb? The bar has been lowered so far that the fact that Rick doesn't ask his security detail to drive around collecting lotion and used mattresses means he's in the top 10% of the cabinet.   

I just don't get why Republicans don't find this embarrassing.  I'd like to think that Americans of all stripes admire competence and would prefer their government to be staffed by competent people.  I don't have to like my surgeon or my pilot, but I'd like them to be good at their jobs.  I might not have wanted war with Iraq, but competent generals are better than incompetent ones.  But now we've sunk to the DeVos/Price/Pruitt/DeVos/Omarosa/Kushner/Ivanka fiasco stage.  Maybe you think it's great that the government is run by idiots because who needs it...but does that libertarian ethos really extend to the people in charge of the nuclear arsenal?

God-remember when the ACA website was buggy for 3 days after launch and Republicans flipped their shit about the sheer incompetence?  The Trump administration would be overachieving to epic levels if their worst fuck up was a website launch that was three days late.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3621 on: August 17, 2018, 10:00:11 AM »
I didn't think Perry was a particularly good governor of Texas. But I agree with the assessment that he is coming out of this administration better than almost any other cabinet member. Scandal-free and out of the news for now. I would love to have him switch jobs with his boss.




nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3622 on: August 17, 2018, 10:09:44 AM »

If the Republicans can hold their unified government, do you think stocks will surge?

I do not.  Much of the recent stock surge was fueled by the corporate tax cuts, which allowed companies to buy back huge amounts of stock. That's already been 'baked in' to the market. Somehow I doubt the GOP will be able to push a second round of tax cuts through, particularly if their majorities are reduced.
I worry more than this escalating trade war with multiple countries and few/no allies backing us will continue to stress companies and depress hiring. I find that scenario far more likely should the GOP hold onto (slim) majorities in both chambers.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3623 on: August 17, 2018, 10:38:14 AM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3624 on: August 17, 2018, 10:46:06 AM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Obama gift's Russia Crimea with no fight and this new President has the nerve to do this! Amazing. This guy won't even shuffle Billions to Iran, what gives.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3625 on: August 17, 2018, 11:02:55 AM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Obama gift's Russia Crimea with no fight and this new President has the nerve to do this! Amazing. This guy won't even shuffle Billions to Iran, what gives.

And what is your opinion of the president's, Donald Trump's, statement?

If you'd like to discuss the way Obama's administration reacted to the annexation of Crimea or repayment of frozen assets to the Iranian government, start another thread.

I also wonder if you've forgotten about this:

http://fortune.com/2016/08/01/donald-trump-accept-russia-annexation-crimea/

Quote
Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump is suggesting the U.S. accept Russiaís annexation of Crimea if it would lead to better relations with Moscow and stronger cooperation in fighting Islamic State militants.

That view runs counter to the Obama administration, which imposed economic sanctions against Russia for annexing the territory in Ukraine two years ago. The United Nations also doesnít want countries to recognize Crimea as part of Russia, and some top Republicans staunchly defend Crimea against what they consider Russian aggression.

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On the topic of Putin and Ukraine, [Trump] said: ďHeís not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. Heís not gonna go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want.Ē

ABCís George Stephanopoulos said, ďWell, heís already there, isnít he?Ē Trump replied, ďOK. Well, heís there in a certain way.Ē
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:13:35 AM by Dabnasty »

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3626 on: August 17, 2018, 11:05:32 AM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Obama gift's Russia Crimea with no fight and this new President has the nerve to do this! Amazing. This guy won't even shuffle Billions to Iran, what gives.
Yes, Obama could have been more aggressive than the economic sanctions. However, it is a false equivalency to say that Obama's approach is equivalent to: 1) ignore sanctions imposed on Russia by Congress, 2) carve out portions of a bill passed by Congress explicitly to allow the president to formally cede occupied lands to Russia.  The signing statements are also problematic because the wording is that no funds shall be allocated to support those actions. The purse strings are an explicit responsibility of congress as a check on the executive in the Constitution. This signing statement is problematic in part because of the constitutional implications.

So yes, how dare the President have the nerve to do this is correct.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3627 on: August 17, 2018, 11:19:09 AM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Obama gift's Russia Crimea with no fight and this new President has the nerve to do this! Amazing. This guy won't even shuffle Billions to Iran, what gives.

It's hard to tell from your remark, but I'm guessing you are referencing the release of Iranian money after we signed and they met the conditions of the Iran treaty?
If so, this money was never the US's to begin with.  Whether you think the deal was too lenient or not could be the topic of another, Obama-themed thread, but its worth noting that since tis dissolution we've been left with no agreement whatsoever with Iran.

PDXTabs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3628 on: August 17, 2018, 12:25:02 PM »
A lot of number-crunchers are giving the Democrats a 50-80% chance of taking control of the House in November. But they might not.

If the Republicans can hold their unified government, do you think stocks will surge?

My favorite being https://economist.com/midterms, which is kept up to date.

With that said, markets rejoicing at the Republicans keeping control of the government seems like the ultimate short-termism, so sure, the markets should love it.

PDXTabs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3629 on: August 17, 2018, 12:30:39 PM »
Shall we add yet another example of Trump bowing to Russia to the tire fire?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/401913-trump-attacks-russia-provisions-in-signed-defense-bill

Obama gift's Russia Crimea with no fight and this new President has the nerve to do this! Amazing. This guy won't even shuffle Billions to Iran, what gives.

I wish that Obama would have done more about Crimea. With that said, please elaborate why un-freezing the assets of Iranian corporations is a problem?

Much of the frozen cash includes Iran's income from selling a limited amount of oil prior to the lifting of the sanctions, when Iran could legally sell oil but could not transfer the money back to Iran, because doing so was illegal under U.S. sanctions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_frozen_assets

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3630 on: August 17, 2018, 02:38:37 PM »
As far as a parade, he has wanted this ever since he came in to Office to honor the military. SecDef keeps talking him out of it. Although I agree it is a waste of resources, I think there are far more dangerous parades taking place. How much is spent policing ANTIFA? He sees public acknowledgement of our forces as something good for the nation and that I agree with.
As far as I am concerned, states and cities can police their own parades however they want. I only care about the ones I can vote and pay for. But a large expenditure to emulate a French military parade would have been laughable to conservatives for my entire life until now.

Quote
I imagine many politicians have questionable lawyers. I would be surprised if they did not. There is not a doubt in my mind that Holder and Lynch would have done anything to protect their President. Trump certainly does not have that luxury as evident by the unprecedented raids and seizures on his confidants. I think we would have found dirt on anyone if they were investigated to this extent. Raid the lawyer of any top politician and scrutinize every file, then compare lawyers.
But I'm not going off the results of any raids or outside political commentary. Simply look at Trump's own words regarding his former close associates. If they are that bad, what does it say about him that he associated with them for so long in the first place?

Quote
President Trump should be tried for adultery based on proof, just as anyone for any crime. Just because it happened a decade ago, it is still a crime and if you feel there is sufficient evidence, I look forward to the prosecution.
I see this as a commentary on Trump's character, not a crime. As far as I am concerned consenting adults can do whatever they want. But paying money to keep it quiet makes it worse in my mind.

Quote
As far as Brennan goes, he was the quarterback of Obama's drone program and a frequent user of "Questionable interrogations" both of which some find unethical. Yes he served his country but he works for a media outlet branch of Universal Studios. He is very vocally against the current administration and he does not need access to Top Secret assets to advise for his current job. Furthermore he did play a critical role in the ongoing investigation against the President. I cannot fathom a scenario where his Top Secret Access is relevant, or good for America if he wants to change ongoing policy and direction.
Maybe there should be a big banner in the Oval Office that says "Is This Good for the Country?"

Quote
I want secure borders, I think America benefits from jobs over welfare. I believe that drugs are dangerous and those that solicit them are dangerous to society. I support the military and police, heck BLM Chicago is still pushing for more police limitations despite cries from their own citizens. ANTIFA is not free speech, they are anarchists that should be arrested as soon as they show up masked. White nationals, despicable. I do think the President should do more to distance himself, hateful race groups of all kinds are only Rubbing Raw the Sores of Discontent and should monitored carefully. Free speech wasn't free to those dying while fighting for it.
OK. And to various extents I agree with all of those policies, except BLM Chicago because many black people there appear to be getting the short end of the stick, and arresting people based on how they dress. But I also like compromises where everybody wins. It seems like we are getting a whole bunch of undesirable stuff in exchange for our handful of winning positions. The whole point of compromising is to get win-win situations. Even if on balance each side only gets 55% of what it wants in any given compromise, after a few of those everybody comes out considerably ahead. Right now I feel our compromises under Trump have been more often win-lose, and we are not coming out ahead.  Some of the things Trump has done, for example attempting to undermine credibility of elections and election results, probably cannot be balanced by any possible beneficial action and are entirely detrimental (that is assuming he did not work with Russia to undermine any election or act against US interests in any way, I am still waiting on the results of that, but if so would also be an action which could not be balanced by good other action).

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3631 on: August 18, 2018, 09:35:18 AM »
It's flabbergasting seeing the same nonsense being brought up in defence of Trump (or, more accurately, slinging shit at Obama) with virtually zero reference to the actual real world. Politico reported this week that Trump's aides have repeatedly had to explain to him that he can't ring foreign leaders whenever he feels like it, because he's having difficulty understanding time zones. Sarah Huckabee Sanders effectively confirmed that a tape exists of Trump using the N-word repeatedly. He's revoked security clearance from a critic purely because he doesn't like criticism. Trans people in the States are being contacted and told that their passports which show their corrected gender were incorrectly issued and need to be replaced. This has the potential to go down as the beginning of the end of America.

For the handful of people on the thread who are still supporting Trump: you need to make a mental decision about exactly how far he can go before you can't support him any more. You need to draw a mental line in the sand that marks the point at which he becomes unacceptable, because if you don't you'll end up making increasingly feeble excuses for increasingly shameful behaviour as the boundaries of acceptable conduct are pushed ever further out. Decide how far is too far, and do it now, so that when the line is crossed (and make no mistake, it will be crossed) you can stand true to at least some form of principles and oppose those actions.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3632 on: August 18, 2018, 01:18:20 PM »
There is no line that will be crossed, because most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 

Once enough conservatives were convinced of that, it doesnít matter what Trump does, because they are more terrified that liberals will take over than of anything that Trump will do.

Itís time to face facts that we are at the point of irreconcilable differences here. 

Vote like the country you love depends on it.   Because that is all that really matters.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3633 on: August 18, 2018, 02:41:49 PM »
Have you noticed that the Manafort jury didn't come back with a decision yet?  The fact that this was not a slam dunk case makes me think we've already lost the country.  I fear there is a solitary Trump supporter on the jury who will never consent to convicting Paul Manafort because they think they think the investigation itself is unconstitutional or something, regardless of the evidence.  If you believe it's a witch hunt, then even obvious criminals get off?  A hung jury means he goes free, right? 

Paul Manafort committed tax fraud.  This isn't the most serious charge he could face, but it does look like a pretty simple one to prove.  Russia paid him millions of dollars, and he deposited those funds into offshore accounts and then failed to report the income to the IRS.  Frankly I'm shocked the jury took more than an hour or two to come back with guilty verdicts, which is why I'm not worried there is something fishy going on. 

And if that's the case, if some self-styled Trump supporter has decided that the entire justice system is now a criminal organization and that the accused criminal is being unfairly persecuted for political reasons, then what's left to us?  The rule of law by which the justice operates is wholly dependent on upholding those laws, so a single person with a MAGA hat fetish can subvert the entire process and there is no recourse.  I feel this may turn out to be the fatal flaw in America's legal framework, just like election interference has proven to be the fatal flaw in our democracy.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:46:58 PM by sol »

PDXTabs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3634 on: August 18, 2018, 02:52:39 PM »
Have you noticed that the Manafort jury didn't come back with a decision yet?  The fact that this was not a slam dunk case makes me think we've already lost the country.  I fear there is a solitary Trump supporter on the jury who will never consent to convicting Paul Manafort because they think they think the investigation itself is unconstitutional or something, regardless of the evidence.  If you believe it's a witch hunt, then even obvious criminals get off?  A hung jury means he goes free, right? 

You might be right, but I really hope that you are wrong. He is charged with 18 counts of three different crimes. Hopefully there is just a problem with some, but not all, of the charges?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3635 on: August 18, 2018, 08:22:46 PM »
There is no line that will be crossed, because most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 

I am just hoping that he will do something so bad / cross the line so that he is not getting re-elected.

If he does get re-elected, what you see now is nothing compare to the next 4 years. He may not do something now because he is trying to win re-election, but once he wins the second election, he has nothing to lose.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3636 on: August 19, 2018, 07:19:32 AM »
Sol, you might be right. Think about what happened with the OJ verdict.

Freedom2016

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3637 on: August 19, 2018, 08:01:04 AM »
I'm not a lawyer but a hung jury means the jury failed to agree on a verdict, and the defendant can be re-tried on any charge on which the jury was hung. That is different from returning a unanimous "not guilty" verdict (a la OJ).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3638 on: August 19, 2018, 09:05:55 AM »

You might be right, but I really hope that you are wrong. He is charged with 18 counts of three different crimes. Hopefully there is just a problem with some, but not all, of the charges?

THis is my hope and current belief.
A few of the charges seem such a slam dunk (e.g. he knowingly made numerous false statements and faild to report foreign bank accounts).  Hard to say that didn't happen.  I think the jury is just split currently about whether some aspects of his conduct amounted to conspiracy (intent to evade and defraud) rather than just getting caught up in his own web of lies and debt.  The jury did ask for a better explanation of 'reasonable doubt', so who wants to read those tea leaves.
We shall see.

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sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3640 on: August 19, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
https://nypost.com/2018/08/19/giuliani-truth-isnt-truth/

2+2=5

Is this just another "alternative facts" moment?

That argument seems like a sideshow, to me.  The Trumpian notion that reality is determined by what you say on television only works if you play it coy.  You can't just come out and say "ignore the facts, believe me instead" and expect to be acquitted of crimes.  Acquittal requires an alternative narrative, like OJ's case that "this is just because I'm black" and in that vein Giuliani needs to convince people that the entire investigation is a criminal fraud, not that the results of the investigation are flawed.

This is very much like his his prior assertions about the Russia meeting, where he said 1) he's innocent because it didn't happen, and 2) he's innocent because even though it did happen, it's not illegal, and 3) he's innocent because even though it's illegal, the candidate didn't know about it.  Um, you kind of can't offer all of those defenses at the same time.  Each one sort of undercuts the previous one.  Similarly, you can't argue that special prosecutor's investigation is a witch hunt, and then turn around and say that the investigation is totally legit and we support it but we need to carefully control what evidence is admitted so that we can find the truth.

I hate lawyers.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3641 on: August 19, 2018, 10:56:47 AM »
oh my.  How did Giuliani go from 'America's Mayor' with good approval ratings from both sides to Trump's attack dog, willing to go in front of cameras and push the most ridiculous aspects of DJT's whims? 

Most people spend their final years concerned with their legacy.  Rudy seems concerned with burning his to the ground, and all in exchange for... what exactly? At 74 it's doubtful he'll get a shot at higher elected office. Maybe appointment to AG if/when Sessions is kicked one times too many?

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3642 on: August 19, 2018, 11:00:16 AM »
...most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 
This is both false and highly prejudiced. We should be very careful about how we cast "they" and "we" in our writing and our minds, otherwise we are equally at fault for making the situation worse. A more accurate, non-prejudicial, and far more helpful statement might be "it is possible that some small minority of ardent Trump proponents see Democrats and liberals as enemies and not real Americans, but the vast majority of both sides share a common goal of living in a prosperous and respectful nation under the rule of law and shared common values." In fact I often wonder if both sides may not be merely projecting themselves onto the other.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3643 on: August 19, 2018, 11:21:47 AM »
...most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 
This is both false and highly prejudiced. We should be very careful about how we cast "they" and "we" in our writing and our minds, otherwise we are equally at fault for making the situation worse. A more accurate, non-prejudicial, and far more helpful statement might be "it is possible that some small minority of ardent Trump proponents see Democrats and liberals as enemies and not real Americans, but the vast majority of both sides share a common goal of living in a prosperous and respectful nation under the rule of law and shared common values." In fact I often wonder if both sides may not be merely projecting themselves onto the other.

I think, though I might be naive, that Americans have more similarities what we want, than differences. We all love our country. We love being part of a democracy. We love that the US has been an innovator in so many different areas of technology, and that our arts and films and popular culture are consumed world wild. We all want our children to grow up in a safe, peaceful country, where they can grow up and get a quality education, and get a decent job or even be an entrepeneur. I also want to say we want to live in a country where we can breathe the air and drink the water, and the soil is not contaminated. To not have have our life savings decimated by a medical emergency or condition.
Other countries cannot conquer us via military strength, but they can divide this country. They can make us fear each other, hate each other and trade our democracy for the illusion of safety or being on the winning side.  It's working.   

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3644 on: August 19, 2018, 12:03:44 PM »
...most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 
This is both false and highly prejudiced. We should be very careful about how we cast "they" and "we" in our writing and our minds, otherwise we are equally at fault for making the situation worse. A more accurate, non-prejudicial, and far more helpful statement might be "it is possible that some small minority of ardent Trump proponents see Democrats and liberals as enemies and not real Americans, but the vast majority of both sides share a common goal of living in a prosperous and respectful nation under the rule of law and shared common values." In fact I often wonder if both sides may not be merely projecting themselves onto the other.

I think, though I might be naive, that Americans have more similarities what we want, than differences. We all love our country. We love being part of a democracy. We love that the US has been an innovator in so many different areas of technology, and that our arts and films and popular culture are consumed world wild. We all want our children to grow up in a safe, peaceful country, where they can grow up and get a quality education, and get a decent job or even be an entrepeneur. I also want to say we want to live in a country where we can breathe the air and drink the water, and the soil is not contaminated. To not have have our life savings decimated by a medical emergency or condition.
Other countries cannot conquer us via military strength, but they can divide this country. They can make us fear each other, hate each other and trade our democracy for the illusion of safety or being on the winning side.  It's working.   
Indeed. I was just watching with my parents last night and couldn't help but think of the similarities.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3645 on: August 19, 2018, 12:08:21 PM »
So, the WH is considering using Blackwater (headed by Betsy DeVos's relative Eric Prince) to replace troops in Afghanistan. I think that Jim Wright (aka Stonekettle, and a career military in special forces and military intelligence) summed it up well:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/officials-worry-trump-may-back-erik-prince-plan-privatize-war-n901401

From Jim Wright:
Quote
According to senior officials, Trump is showing renewed interest in privatizing the war in Afghanistan.

Erik Prince, brother to Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, a hardcore Trump supporter, founder of Blackwater Security, and notorious mercenary, has proposed exactly that. And in recent weeks has been pushing the idea directly to Trump in earnest. Prince wants to replace US Troops with his own private mercenaries. The idea is this private army will then answer to a special U.S. Envoy for War (Gee, I wonder who Prince has in mind for THAT job) who would then report directly to the President -- no congressional oversight, no interference from the Joint Chiefs or Secretary of Defense, no answering to the American people.

A Special Envoy for War, personally appointed by Trump, not subject to congressional approval, unconstrained by oversight or law.

Trump would have his own private army of killers, run by his own personal mercenary, answerable to him and him alone.

This is the Republican Holy Grail.

War for profit. You get to kill brown people in a foreign land and make a shitload of money doing it, and everything is funded via unlimited black money, hidden from Congress and the American public -- bypassing any review and oversight.

The ultimate in capitalism, stripped of any pretense.

The US Military Industrial Complex reduced to its very essence and unfettered by even the illusion of democracy.

Death for profit.

NOW, this is where I remind you that Trump has repeatedly proposed pillaging foreign countries in violation of both American and international law. Taking their oil, metals, minerals, and resources for American profit at the muzzle of gun.

This is the point where I remind you that Trump is right now attacking the Press for being critical of his administration.

This is where I remind you that Trump is right now revoking the security clearances of those in government who question him.

This is where I remind you that Trump is right now openly attempting to silence and shutdown any investigation into his actions or those of the people who work him.

And this is the point where I remind you that Trump is right now attempting to convict his political adversaries in the court of public opinion and has even threatened to jail his former political opponents. Only a few days ago, Trump's own comment directly implied his desire for a single party political system in America. HIS party.

Now, imagine Trump with a private army of killers who answer only to a fanatical Trump loyalist.

Imagine it. Because this is the point where I remind you that Posse Comitatus doesn't apply to mercenaries.

You better show up this November and you'd better vote for the opposition whether you like the choices or not. You don't need any more inspiration than this. You don't need a unicorn.

You need to show up.

You need to show the fuck up.

Because you very well might not get another chance.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3646 on: August 20, 2018, 07:37:24 AM »
...most Trump supporters donít see democrats or liberals as real Americans, but enemies of the country.  We are to be stopped at all costs, even if it means burning down the whole thing. 
This is both false and highly prejudiced. We should be very careful about how we cast "they" and "we" in our writing and our minds, otherwise we are equally at fault for making the situation worse. A more accurate, non-prejudicial, and far more helpful statement might be "it is possible that some small minority of ardent Trump proponents see Democrats and liberals as enemies and not real Americans, but the vast majority of both sides share a common goal of living in a prosperous and respectful nation under the rule of law and shared common values." In fact I often wonder if both sides may not be merely projecting themselves onto the other.

I think, though I might be naive, that Americans have more similarities what we want, than differences. We all love our country. We love being part of a democracy. We love that the US has been an innovator in so many different areas of technology, and that our arts and films and popular culture are consumed world wild. We all want our children to grow up in a safe, peaceful country, where they can grow up and get a quality education, and get a decent job or even be an entrepeneur. I also want to say we want to live in a country where we can breathe the air and drink the water, and the soil is not contaminated. To not have have our life savings decimated by a medical emergency or condition.
Other countries cannot conquer us via military strength, but they can divide this country. They can make us fear each other, hate each other and trade our democracy for the illusion of safety or being on the winning side.  It's working.   

This week's EconTalk (http://www.econtalk.org/lilliana-mason-on-uncivil-agreement/) explained a lot of the background in human psychology which leads to the political division and the break down in productive discourse (for example, it is in our nature to take pleasure in watching the "other side" lose even more than our side win, even if it results in a worse outcome).  There is an interesting part about political climates in the past (just imagine Vietnam and the Draft going on during the current administration!) as well as how the modern era, curated news sources and social media, feeds our worst impulses.  Lots of good stuff in there that I'll have to listen to again, since it is helpful to be made aware of.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3647 on: August 20, 2018, 08:05:43 AM »
[
So, the WH is considering using Blackwater (headed by Betsy DeVos's relative Eric Prince) to replace troops in Afghanistan. I think that Jim Wright (aka Stonekettle, and a career military in special forces and military intelligence) summed it up well:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/officials-worry-trump-may-back-erik-prince-plan-privatize-war-n901401

Good the old mercenary army of Blackwater.  Or Xe.  Or Academi.  (They really like changing names, that company - a sign that they're very proud of what they do no doubt.)

- tried and convicted of massacring 14 civilians (and wounding an additional 17) in Iraq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7033048.stm) . . . but then the convictions have been fought and overturned (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/blackwater-appeals-court-1.4235453)
- lied about unjustified shooting . . . for which they were not punished (https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20090402/1ablackwater02_st.art.htm)
- Executed three Iraqi's without provocation . . . and were not punished (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110702751_pf.html)
- Crashed into, then attacked and captured US forces (https://www.newsweek.com/blackwater-soaked-103437)
- has a history of purposefully impeding congressional investigation of military matters (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/27/iraq.blackwater/index.html)
- Drunken Blackwater guard executes bodyguard of Vice President of Iraq . . . isn't charged with anything.  (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/world/middleeast/04contractor.html)

That doesn't cover the arms smuggling, prostitution, open drunkenness and drug use, etc.

I can see why Republicans love the company . . . I mean, they're not constrained by any pesky laws and don't have any pesky oversight.  Their actions are certain to create a lot more American hating terrorists wherever they go, and that appears to be one of the primary goals of America's war of terror.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3648 on: August 20, 2018, 08:22:07 AM »
oh my.  How did Giuliani go from 'America's Mayor' with good approval ratings from both sides to Trump's attack dog, willing to go in front of cameras and push the most ridiculous aspects of DJT's whims? 

Most people spend their final years concerned with their legacy.  Rudy seems concerned with burning his to the ground, and all in exchange for... what exactly? At 74 it's doubtful he'll get a shot at higher elected office. Maybe appointment to AG if/when Sessions is kicked one times too many?

The road between these two has stops on: a disastrous GOP Primary campaign in 2008 that spent $30,000,000 in order to win a single delegate, and a very expensive third divorce that started early in 2018 (Giuliani needs to find high-profile work to pay for his new, bachelor, lifestyle).

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3649 on: August 20, 2018, 08:31:03 AM »
oh my.  How did Giuliani go from 'America's Mayor' with good approval ratings from both sides to Trump's attack dog, willing to go in front of cameras and push the most ridiculous aspects of DJT's whims? 

Most people spend their final years concerned with their legacy.  Rudy seems concerned with burning his to the ground, and all in exchange for... what exactly? At 74 it's doubtful he'll get a shot at higher elected office. Maybe appointment to AG if/when Sessions is kicked one times too many?

The road between these two has stops on: a disastrous GOP Primary campaign in 2008 that spent $30,000,000 in order to win a single delegate, and a very expensive third divorce that started early in 2018 (Giuliani needs to find high-profile work to pay for his new, bachelor, lifestyle).

Let's not forget that he has always been pretty batshit crazy.  He was just able to hide it for a few years by starting every sentence with '9/11'.