Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 404686 times)

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3550 on: August 15, 2018, 07:57:56 PM »
I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders.


The presidency has revealed Trump's ego and his greed. He's using tax payer dollars to support his hotels and resorts, and he is taking advantage of his position by encouraging foreign dignitaries to stay at the Trump hotel in Washington DC. Moreover Jared Kushner is using his ties to get bailed out for his shaky Manhattan skyscraper by foreign interests that want influence.

If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3551 on: August 15, 2018, 08:12:50 PM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3552 on: August 15, 2018, 08:22:37 PM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3553 on: August 15, 2018, 08:26:32 PM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3554 on: August 15, 2018, 08:33:48 PM »
Speaking of a chunk of the US wanting to move backwards, Iowa worker fired for disparaging Mexicans cites Trump election, says she should get unemployment

Quote
DES MOINES, Iowa – An Iowa woman fired for disparaging Mexicans at work cannot collect unemployment despite her testimony that other employees also made derogatory comments about "blacks and foreigners" since Donald Trump became president.

Angela Diers filed for unemployment after she lost her job at Dexter Laundry, a Fairfield manufacturer of commercial washers and dryers, for telling a co-worker that she hated Mexicans.

Making America Great Again!

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3555 on: August 16, 2018, 07:04:27 AM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3556 on: August 16, 2018, 07:34:56 AM »
I' m reading a really interesting book right now called Democracy in Chains by Nancy MacLean.

I've only just started it but it is really interesting so far.  From the book review:

"Behind today’s headlines of billionaires taking over our government is a secretive political establishment with long, deep, and troubling roots. The capitalist radical right has been working not simply to change who rules, but to fundamentally alter the rules of democratic governance. But billionaires did not launch this movement; a white intellectual in the embattled Jim Crow South did. Democracy in Chains names its true architect—the Nobel Prize-winning political economist James McGill Buchanan—and dissects the operation he and his colleagues designed over six decades to alter every branch of government to disempower the majority".

She talks about the Koch brothers and how they have been funding all of this more covert activity for a long time.  And how the Republican party has changed in fundamental ways because of this.  She says there is a long term strategic plan involved.

I know someone who describes himself as a Libertarian.  He would never vote for a democrat.  I've always been really confused by this because he is also gay. We run in a very liberal circle, so it has just never made sense to me.    It is really interesting to see his mindset and values described in this book!  I get it now (and I still totally disagree).  (he didn't vote for Trump, he was/is a big Ted Cruz fan).

Has anyone read this book?

I did, and as a Canadian who sees the Koch brothers funding think tanks here, it was very disturbing to think of their influence on both countries.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3557 on: August 16, 2018, 07:36:30 AM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

This is an unrelated problem to political affiliation.  The anti-science thing has advocacy from both ends of the political spectrum - just for different causes.  There are idiots who refuse to vaccinate, who believe in pure fictions like homeopathy and the necessity of various forms of 'cleansings', and who are against GMOs of any type on the left.  There are idiots on the right who believe that climate change and evolution are made up, that the sea level isn't rising, that pregnancy can't occur from rape, and that stem cell research is inherently evil.

This doesn't appear to be a left/right issue, just an issue of a large number of dangerously stupid people of voting age.

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3558 on: August 16, 2018, 08:26:28 AM »
You must mean aside from the gerrymandering, vote suppression of minorities, vote suppression of felons, and failure to safeguard our infrastructure from the attack of a foreign autocrat who admitted in a press conference that he "wanted Trump to win".
True.
I meant that the GOP seems to be fighting demographic shifts which keep moving the country further from their older white base. Rather than attempt to appeal to younger voters and minority voters they’ve been hard at work building the walls you mentioned above. This holds them in power for another election cycle or two, but it won’t build trust in the groups they’ll need in the decades to come.

People can be fickle. Perhaps the GOP thinks they can milk the status quo and then suddenly reinvent themselves at some point in the future to appeal to minority/female/immigrant voters?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3559 on: August 16, 2018, 08:41:09 AM »
https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-president-trumps-statement-revoking-former-cia-director-brennans-security-clearance

Can anyone explain to me how this is not a clear violation of the first amendment? Reasons for revoking security clearance include making "a series of outrageous and unfounded allegations" and "wild outbursts on the internet and television."

Note that there's a convenient list of Trump's personal enemies listed in this document, too.


FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3560 on: August 16, 2018, 08:45:50 AM »
I was actually surprised to hear that people get to keep their security clearance after leaving the job that required them to have a security clearance. How many senile Americans are walking around with access to sensitive government information? Are they permitted to access information just for giggles?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3561 on: August 16, 2018, 08:49:50 AM »
https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-president-trumps-statement-revoking-former-cia-director-brennans-security-clearance

Can anyone explain to me how this is not a clear violation of the first amendment? Reasons for revoking security clearance include making "a series of outrageous and unfounded allegations" and "wild outbursts on the internet and television."

Note that there's a convenient list of Trump's personal enemies listed in this document, too.

Lol.  I love it when this administration accuses someone of lying and says that this is why they need to be punished.  Hypocrisy is rarely seen in such a pure concentration.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3562 on: August 16, 2018, 09:04:38 AM »
I was actually surprised to hear that people get to keep their security clearance after leaving the job that required them to have a security clearance. How many senile Americans are walking around with access to sensitive government information? Are they permitted to access information just for giggles?

Most lose their access to Government systems upon completing their tours. The Clearances are normally 4-8 years active after adjudication and stay in a dormant status until a new job that requires it, picks them up. I had a clearance my entire military time but only had access to systems and equipment as I needed them. Prior to getting out I was due for reinvestigation so it sits in an inactive status until either it expires, or a new job picks me up in the system that requires the same clearance.

As the case with many of these high level officials, they play critical roles and supervise or plan things that may take years to unfold. They typically keep access to provide consulting or assistance even after they retire.

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3563 on: August 16, 2018, 09:10:35 AM »
Interesting. Thanks ematicic.

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3564 on: August 16, 2018, 09:27:21 AM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

This is an unrelated problem to political affiliation.  The anti-science thing has advocacy from both ends of the political spectrum - just for different causes.  There are idiots who refuse to vaccinate, who believe in pure fictions like homeopathy and the necessity of various forms of 'cleansings', and who are against GMOs of any type on the left.  There are idiots on the right who believe that climate change and evolution are made up, that the sea level isn't rising, that pregnancy can't occur from rape, and that stem cell research is inherently evil.

This doesn't appear to be a left/right issue, just an issue of a large number of dangerously stupid people of voting age.


Homeopathy isn't pure fiction.  I'd never claim anything is 100% effective, but we have used a number of homeopatic remedies over the years and know that it works well for us.


One that I am very impressed with was a Poison Ivy remedy that I used almost 20 years ago that a single dose or two cured me from being allergic to poison ivy.  I used to get it, but after the remedy I have been able to actually pull it up, roots & all, without any itching.  I've only had a couple of very minor rashes since using it, so minor that I barely recognized it as poison ivy. 


I'm not claiming it will work for anybody else, but it definitely worked for me. 
Here's a link to what I used.  https://www.newtonlabs.net/Poison-Ivy/productinfo/N028/
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:43:42 AM by GreenEggs »

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3565 on: August 16, 2018, 09:43:51 AM »
I was actually surprised to hear that people get to keep their security clearance after leaving the job that required them to have a security clearance. How many senile Americans are walking around with access to sensitive government information? Are they permitted to access information just for giggles?

As ematicic mentioned, clearances naturally expire.  In my agency they're typically good for 5 years at a stretch, and I think even that is too long.  A clearance is granted based upon an evaluation of a particular person's circumstances and trustworthiness, and a lot can change in 5 years.  People can be radicalized much faster than that.

And at least on the technical side, clearances are all segregated by topic.  A person who carries a clearance for a specific category of weapons system doesn't need one for a specific category of intelligence gathering.  In practice, much of this work is co-located in secure facilities in which every person needs to have clearance for everything done in that facility, in case they overhear something, which is why lots of scientists with weird expertise end up with clearances that sound more like spycraft instead of nerd knowledge.

Revoking Brennan's clearance has absolutely no impact on anything.  If he's not employed by the government anymore, then his security clearance isn't doing him any good because he can't access that information anyway.  I think this was purely a punitive measure, a way for Trump to publicly castigate a political rival.  Brennan hasn't lost anything except the ability to be rehired into the job he retired from.  And that's the reason why he's complained that it's an unprecedented perversion of political power, because is Trump is now using the state's security apparatus the same way he uses his twitter feed, to insult patriotic Americans he doesn't agree with. 

I expect John McCain's clearance is not far behind.

Lol.  I love it when this administration accuses someone of lying and says that this is why they need to be punished.  Hypocrisy is rarely seen in such a pure concentration.

I'm still waiting for Trump to accuse Joe Biden of paying hush money to a porn star to cover up his marital infidelity.  It's only a matter of time.  Trump can't not accuse his rivals of his own worst sins, it's the only way he knows how to defend himself.  He's the whatabouter-in-chief, to such an extreme that he doesn't even wait for real examples of malfeasance he just turns every one of his own missteps into an accusation against someone else.

The anti-science thing has advocacy from both ends of the political spectrum - just for different causes.  There are idiots who refuse to vaccinate, who believe in pure fictions like homeopathy and the necessity of various forms of 'cleansings', and who are against GMOs of any type on the left.  There are idiots on the right who believe that climate change and evolution are made up, that the sea level isn't rising, that pregnancy can't occur from rape, and that stem cell research is inherently evil.

I see a clear distinction here.  People who ardently believe in juice cleanses aren't setting national policy on carbon emissions, and the GMO opponents are denying food aid to starving people.  They are wacky extremists without power or consequence.  The "conservative" beliefs about things like climate and abortion have fully infiltrated Congress, and have been used to do real harm to your rights and your country.

Even vaccinations are an easy one; schools require your kids to be vaccinated.  You can personally believe vaccinations are harmful, you just can't use the public school system.  We have legally required everyone to be vaccinated, and if you choose to opt out you are the one who pays the immediate price.  Contrast that situation with the belief that rape cannot cause pregnancy, and their efforts to restrict abortion access to rape victims in the entire country, in which they want to punish millions of other people for their own erroneous beliefs.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:50:23 AM by sol »

LaineyAZ

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3566 on: August 16, 2018, 09:56:28 AM »
Unfortunately, the requirement for students being vaccinated varies by state.  Here in Maricopa County AZ, one of the most populous places in U.S., we have now dropped below the "herd immunity" rate for measles.

http://www.azfamily.com/story/38862683/as-vaccination-rates-drop-herd-immunity-lost-in-maricopa-co-schools

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3567 on: August 16, 2018, 10:01:16 AM »
The difference is, as history plays out things like _________ can't be "fake news"-ed away.
Agreed!  That's worth remembering for many things.  Not that people won't try to spin things anyway, but as more evidence accumulates....

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3568 on: August 16, 2018, 10:03:46 AM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

This is an unrelated problem to political affiliation.  The anti-science thing has advocacy from both ends of the political spectrum - just for different causes.  There are idiots who refuse to vaccinate, who believe in pure fictions like homeopathy and the necessity of various forms of 'cleansings', and who are against GMOs of any type on the left.  There are idiots on the right who believe that climate change and evolution are made up, that the sea level isn't rising, that pregnancy can't occur from rape, and that stem cell research is inherently evil.

This doesn't appear to be a left/right issue, just an issue of a large number of dangerously stupid people of voting age.


Homeopathy isn't pure fiction.  I'd never claim anything is 100% effective, but we have used a number of homeopatic remedies over the years and know that it works well for us.


One that I am very impressed with was a Poison Ivy remedy that I used almost 20 years ago that a single dose or two cured me from being allergic to poison ivy.  I used to get it, but after the remedy I have been able to actually pull it up, roots & all, without any itching.  I've only had a couple of very minor rashes since using it, so minor that I barely recognized it as poison ivy. 


I'm not claiming it will work for anybody else, but it definitely worked for me. 
Here's a link to what I used.  https://www.newtonlabs.net/Poison-Ivy/productinfo/N028/

Homeopathy is actually pure fiction.  It has the same rigorous scientific backing as climate change, vaccine, and evolution denialism.

Hopeopathy is a pseudoscience.  It's fundamentally based on the idea that something that causes a sickness in a healthy person (say, eating rotten chicken causing stomach upset) can be used to cure a sickness in an unhealthy person by dilution.  The dilution involves taking a piece of rotten chicken and then adding water to it until none of the original rotten chicken remains.  (According to homeopaths, the water has a memory that it was once near the rotten chicken, and thus it's still totally valid.)  This water is now considered a powerful homeopathic cure.

Maybe unsurprisingly, considering that homeopathic potions are just water, no homeopathic cure has ever been shown to have a different effectiveness than placebo. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874503/)

This finding has been replicated by the UK who also concluded that "homeopathy is a placebo treatment": (https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/science-and-technology-committee/inquiries/homeopathy-/).

It has been replicated by Australia who concluded "there were no health conditions for which there was reliable evidence that homeopathy was effective. No good-quality, well-designed studies with enough participants for a meaningful result reported either that homeopathy caused greater health improvements than placebo, or caused health improvements equal to those of another treatment" (https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/cam02)

It has been replicated by the European Academies' Science Advisory Council who found a lack of evidence that homeopathic products are effective (https://www.easac.eu/fileadmin/PDF_s/reports_statements/EASAC_Homepathy_statement_web_final.pdf)


My condolences that you've been suckered by these charlatans.  They operate with many of the trappings of medicine and science (as you can see from the link you posted - no actual measurements of 'active ingredients' are listed), so it's easy to be tricked.  Sadly, you are not immune to the effects of poison ivy despite the magic potion of water and sugar that you took.  Whatever plants you were pulling up without being chemically burned were not poison ivy.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:10:54 AM by GuitarStv »

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3569 on: August 16, 2018, 10:07:36 AM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

This is an unrelated problem to political affiliation.  The anti-science thing has advocacy from both ends of the political spectrum - just for different causes.  There are idiots who refuse to vaccinate, who believe in pure fictions like homeopathy and the necessity of various forms of 'cleansings', and who are against GMOs of any type on the left.  There are idiots on the right who believe that climate change and evolution are made up, that the sea level isn't rising, that pregnancy can't occur from rape, and that stem cell research is inherently evil.

This doesn't appear to be a left/right issue, just an issue of a large number of dangerously stupid people of voting age.


Homeopathy isn't pure fiction.  I'd never claim anything is 100% effective, but we have used a number of homeopatic remedies over the years and know that it works well for us.


One that I am very impressed with was a Poison Ivy remedy that I used almost 20 years ago that a single dose or two cured me from being allergic to poison ivy.  I used to get it, but after the remedy I have been able to actually pull it up, roots & all, without any itching.  I've only had a couple of very minor rashes since using it, so minor that I barely recognized it as poison ivy. 


I'm not claiming it will work for anybody else, but it definitely worked for me. 
Here's a link to what I used.  https://www.newtonlabs.net/Poison-Ivy/productinfo/N028/

Homeopathy is actually pure fiction.  It has the same rigorous scientific backing as climate change, vaccine, and evolution denialism.

Hopeopathy is a pseudoscience.  It's fundamentally based on the idea that something that causes a sickness in a healthy person (say, eating rotten chicken causing stomach upset) can be used to cure a sickness in an unhealthy person by dilution.  The dilution involves taking a piece of rotten chicken and then adding water to it until none of the original rotten chicken remains.  (According to homeopaths, the water has a memory that it was once near the rotten chicken, and thus it's still totally valid.)  This water is now considered a powerful homeopathic cure.

No homeopathic cure has ever been shown to have a different effectiveness than placebo.
 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874503/)

My condolences that you've been suckered by these charlatans.  They operate with many of the trappings of medicine and science (as you can see from the link you posted - no actual measurements of 'active ingredients' are listed), so it's easy to be tricked.  Sadly, you are not immune to the effects of poison ivy despite the magic potion of water and sugar that you took.  Whatever plants you were pulling up without being chemically burned were not poison ivy.


Enjoy your beliefs.  I know what works for me.  I'm not trying to sell you anything. 

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3570 on: August 16, 2018, 10:15:54 AM »
Enjoy your beliefs.  I know what works for me.  I'm not trying to sell you anything.

The beauty of science is that unlike homeopathy, it doesn't rely on belief.  It just summarizes the best known data on a particular topic.

If paying for and taking these drops of water and sugar pills works for you, then by all means . . . keep doing so.  Don't call it a cure for anything though until you have evidence.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3571 on: August 16, 2018, 10:20:35 AM »
Hopeopathy is a pseudoscience.

You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? 

"Medicine."

Obligatory NSFW Tim Minchin song:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3572 on: August 16, 2018, 10:24:51 AM »
Gaaah.  Anti-science bullshit is anti-science bullshit regardless of political leaning.

PDXTabs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3573 on: August 16, 2018, 10:30:13 AM »
Homeopathy isn't pure fiction.  I'd never claim anything is 100% effective, but we have used a number of homeopatic remedies over the years and know that it works well for us.


One that I am very impressed with was a Poison Ivy remedy that I used almost 20 years ago that a single dose or two cured me from being allergic to poison ivy.  I used to get it, but after the remedy I have been able to actually pull it up, roots & all, without any itching.  I've only had a couple of very minor rashes since using it, so minor that I barely recognized it as poison ivy. 


I'm not claiming it will work for anybody else, but it definitely worked for me. 
Here's a link to what I used.  https://www.newtonlabs.net/Poison-Ivy/productinfo/N028/

Homeopathy is actually pure fiction.  It has the same rigorous scientific backing as climate change, vaccine, and evolution denialism.

Hopeopathy is a pseudoscience.  It's fundamentally based on the idea that something that causes a sickness in a healthy person (say, eating rotten chicken causing stomach upset) can be used to cure a sickness in an unhealthy person by dilution.  The dilution involves taking a piece of rotten chicken and then adding water to it until none of the original rotten chicken remains.  (According to homeopaths, the water has a memory that it was once near the rotten chicken, and thus it's still totally valid.)  This water is now considered a powerful homeopathic cure.

No homeopathic cure has ever been shown to have a different effectiveness than placebo.
 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874503/)

My condolences that you've been suckered by these charlatans.  They operate with many of the trappings of medicine and science (as you can see from the link you posted - no actual measurements of 'active ingredients' are listed), so it's easy to be tricked.  Sadly, you are not immune to the effects of poison ivy despite the magic potion of water and sugar that you took.  Whatever plants you were pulling up without being chemically burned were not poison ivy.


Enjoy your beliefs.  I know what works for me.  I'm not trying to sell you anything.

This is why we can't have nice things.

All of the scientists and evidence in the world are saying that dilute water is not medicine and you don't care. Most sickness will actually go way with no help whatsoever. Drinking dilute water and then getting better is correlation, not causation. It is also possible that you took some other form of alternative medicine and mistook it for homeopathy?

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3574 on: August 16, 2018, 10:30:49 AM »
From the Homeopathy website:
''Disclaimer: NEWTON product claims are based on traditional homeopathic practice.
The products have not been evaluated by FDA and have not been evaluated for medical evidence.
Information, statements and reviews regarding products have not been reviewed or evaluated by FDA.
These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
The information on this website is not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health professional
and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from decades of our experience.
All customer reviews are posted as received and are individual experiences by persons who have used our products.
However, the effectiveness of our products varies depending on each unique situation.
Therefore, these reviews and case histories reflect individual results and NEWTON does not claim that they are
typical results you should expect to achieve.
We encourage you to make your own healthcare decisions.''

Both sentences kinda counter the fact that It's supposed to help.
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
 
-264 parts, equal, in a 30ML bottle? That seems like excessively difficult way to admit proportion and quantities.

I mean holy crap should this not be a legal way to sell things.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:33:12 AM by Lews Therin »

PDXTabs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3575 on: August 16, 2018, 10:32:46 AM »
You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? 

"Medicine."

To a very real extent in the developed world "medicine" is what you can get your doctor to prescribe which is covered by insurance (national or otherwise). It doesn't really matter if there is strong scientific evidence that it works, it just matters what you can get someone to write you a prescription for which you can afford.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3576 on: August 16, 2018, 10:39:49 AM »
From the Homeopathy website:
''Disclaimer: NEWTON product claims are based on traditional homeopathic practice.
The products have not been evaluated by FDA and have not been evaluated for medical evidence.
Information, statements and reviews regarding products have not been reviewed or evaluated by FDA.
These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
The information on this website is not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health professional
and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from decades of our experience.
All customer reviews are posted as received and are individual experiences by persons who have used our products.
However, the effectiveness of our products varies depending on each unique situation.
Therefore, these reviews and case histories reflect individual results and NEWTON does not claim that they are
typical results you should expect to achieve.
We encourage you to make your own healthcare decisions.''

Both sentences kinda counter the fact that It's supposed to help.
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
 
-264 parts, equal, in a 30ML bottle? That seems like excessively difficult way to admit proportion and quantities.

I mean holy crap should this not be a legal way to sell things.

Based on homeopathic practice, that list should mean that all of those ingredients were at one point diluted out of the water that is currently for sale.

Several of the ingredients are fun too . . .
Nux Vomica for example is better known as strychnine.  Rhus toxicodendron is poison ivy.  Urtica urens is burning nettle.

So you better damned well hope that they diluted those 'active ingredients' to nothingness!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3577 on: August 16, 2018, 01:58:35 PM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3578 on: August 16, 2018, 02:17:37 PM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

Most of the ingredients listed are not liquid, so with these solids what does the measurement mean?

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3579 on: August 16, 2018, 02:27:05 PM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

Most of the ingredients listed are not liquid, so with these solids what does the measurement mean?




You guys don't even know how to read the ingredients, but you're positive that it doesn't work. 

I read the part that said "Poison Ivy" take 3-6 drops on your tongue.  I did it and haven't had poison ivy since.  I don't care what you use for poison ivy. 


Let's get back to explaing to each other that Trump's an unfit leader.  We can agree that. 

Zap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3580 on: August 16, 2018, 02:34:47 PM »
Off topic for sure, but X is the dilution ratio. 1X = 1:10, 6X = 1:10^6, 15X = 1:10^15, etc. At 26X, no molecules of the original substance remain, according to the Wikipedia entry on homeopathic dilutions.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3581 on: August 16, 2018, 02:37:58 PM »
Let's get back to explaing to each other that Trump's an unfit leader.  We can agree that.

In this case, the two topics are related in a very unsettling way.  Trump exploits the same mental miscalculation that leads people to believe in essential oils and juice cleanses.  We are all raised with inherent prejudices, whether we recognize them or not, but some of us at least actively try to use reason to combat these problems, while other people actively subvert the objectively verifiable world in order to preserve their prior beliefs. 

Some things are just lies, whether you believe them or not.  Homeopathic medicine is indistinguishable from placebo.  Climate change is not a hoax.  Prayer doesn't work.  Vaccinations do not cause autism.  People who take pride in saying "I choose to believe in things that are false" is how we end up with leaders like Trump.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3582 on: August 16, 2018, 02:46:22 PM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

Most of the ingredients listed are not liquid, so with these solids what does the measurement mean?




You guys don't even know how to read the ingredients, but you're positive that it doesn't work. 

I read the part that said "Poison Ivy" take 3-6 drops on your tongue.  I did it and haven't had poison ivy since.  I don't care what you use for poison ivy. 


Let's get back to explaing to each other that Trump's an unfit leader.  We can agree that. 

The list of ingredients is written using a special nomenclature unique to homeopathy.  It's not used in medicine, biology, or chemistry . . . and appears designed to be confusing to people using homeopathic potions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

6X means 1 part in 1,000,000 parts water
15X means 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000,000 parts water
30X means 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 parts water
etc.

It's kinda fun though.  I may start mixing the vermouth in my martinis to 6X (substituting gin for water of course) in the future.


Edit - Whoop.  Zap beat me to it.




I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 02:52:37 PM by GuitarStv »

aaahhrealmarcus

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3583 on: August 16, 2018, 02:51:25 PM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

You say that, but... (and this is just my own anecdotal observation) a lot of people are willing to disregard things they've personally seen or experienced, as long as it's climate-change related. I live in a farming community, and any time I make mention of the fact that we used to get more snow, or have milder summers, or more rain, I'm met with denials. It's either "this is just a bad year" or flat out, "no, you're wrong. It's always been this hot/dry/etc." Never mind that there are records to the contrary.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3584 on: August 16, 2018, 02:59:46 PM »
If Hillary Clinton had done nothing other than maintain Obama's environmental policies, appoint Supreme Court justices, and not sabotage the ACA,  her presidency would have had life and earth changing implications.
Excellent point.  And ~half the country thinks that would have been for the better, and ~half the country thinks that would have been for the worse.

And ~half the country wants the human race to move forward, and ~half the country wants the human race to move backward.
And ~the whole country thinks it is in the "correct" half.

The difference is, as history plays out things like climate change can't be "fake news"-ed away.

You say that, but... (and this is just my own anecdotal observation) a lot of people are willing to disregard things they've personally seen or experienced, as long as it's climate-change related. I live in a farming community, and any time I make mention of the fact that we used to get more snow, or have milder summers, or more rain, I'm met with denials. It's either "this is just a bad year" or flat out, "no, you're wrong. It's always been this hot/dry/etc." Never mind that there are records to the contrary.

Case in point: the mayor of Tangier Island.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TA5cq6JinoY

Maybe instead of money, he can use our thoughts and prayers to build the sea wall he wants.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3585 on: August 16, 2018, 03:41:53 PM »
Just adding this to the discussion on homeopathic 'remedies':
roughly 1/3 of adults respond to placebos in trials ranging the gamut from treatment for IBS to antipsychotics drugs.  Interestingly the degree to which a patient believes a placebo is working increases when the patient is led to believe s/he is taking the actual medicine. It's really the bane of clinical trials, as it requires both a much larger sample size and a response from the actual drug that is statistically greater than from the placebo group.

Interestingly, the percentage of people who think they will respond to a placebo is in the single digits.  In other words, we know its a very real and common phenomenon, yet almost everyone thinks they aren't a 'responder'.

With that in mind, it's no wonder there are such strong testimonials about how homeopathic medicine 'worked for me' - particularly since indivudal experiences are unreplicated (the person can't judge what it would have been like without the treatment).

Tying this back to the OP we see a similar pattern: most everyone agrees that there is dubious information floating around, and we all accept that many people fall of it.  Recent studies have shown we are much less effective at identifying blatantly false stories than we believe we are.  Again, it's a weakness that 'other people have'.

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3586 on: August 16, 2018, 04:25:29 PM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 


It could just be "luck", but I don't think many of you believe in luck either. 


I don't like Trump, so we still have that in common.  ;)




Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3587 on: August 16, 2018, 04:30:45 PM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 


It could just be "luck", but I don't think many of you believe in luck either. 


I don't like Trump, so we still have that in common.  ;)

Placebos have had some prettty amazing effects.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/placebo-health-science-brain-suggestible-you-erik-vance/

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3588 on: August 16, 2018, 04:34:50 PM »
Placebos have had some prettty amazing effects.

Placebos are great!  They work just as well as lots of "medicines" that people use, but they cost virtually nothing to produce and are 100% free of unwanted side effects.  What's not to love?

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3589 on: August 16, 2018, 05:03:57 PM »
Placebos have had some prettty amazing effects.

Placebos are great!  They work just as well as lots of "medicines" that people use, but they cost virtually nothing to produce and are 100% free of unwanted side effects.  What's not to love?
I mean, there could be some side effects:
https://www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/1100859/cvs-homeopathic-medicine-alcohol


geekette

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3590 on: August 16, 2018, 05:13:25 PM »
Let him pay for it out of his own pocket...  $92M new estimate for Trump military parade is big increase

eta:  Hours after that news came out, it's now been cancelled for 2018 and they're considering 2019.  Again, if he's still hanging around, he can pay for it, IMHO.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 07:05:20 PM by geekette »

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3591 on: August 16, 2018, 05:23:12 PM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 


It could just be "luck", but I don't think many of you believe in luck either. 


I don't like Trump, so we still have that in common.  ;)

It's actually pretty common to become less sensitive to poison ivy as you age. Could just be a matter of timing.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3592 on: August 16, 2018, 05:42:41 PM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 

I'm honestly not trying to support or argue with your specific experiences.  As a scientist seek to understand why patterns exist, and I acknowledge that we certainly don't know everything.  FWIW, I once had a job clearing brush that was overwhelmingly poison ivy, which i contracted all over my body for the first two weeks. Then I started reacting much less to it. At the same time I was eating the cheese and and milk from goats who fed on the ivy.  Was the reduction due to exposure, or eating the milk/cheese, or did I just get a lot better at not coming into contact?  Can't say for sure, and they aren't mutually exclusive.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3593 on: August 16, 2018, 05:57:00 PM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 

I'm honestly not trying to support or argue with your specific experiences.  As a scientist seek to understand why patterns exist, and I acknowledge that we certainly don't know everything.  FWIW, I once had a job clearing brush that was overwhelmingly poison ivy, which i contracted all over my body for the first two weeks. Then I started reacting much less to it. At the same time I was eating the cheese and and milk from goats who fed on the ivy.  Was the reduction due to exposure, or eating the milk/cheese, or did I just get a lot better at not coming into contact?  Can't say for sure, and they aren't mutually exclusive.

Can we find goats that feed on facts?

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3594 on: August 16, 2018, 07:22:57 PM »
Wow I go away for a day, and everyone is talking about homeopathy. The placebo effect is nothing to sneeze at, and has had sig effects in many different settings. So when they say homeopathy has no greater than a placebo like effect, does Not mean it has no effect. It can have quite a signigicant effect. .https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-sense/201201/the-placebo-effect-how-it-works
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 07:29:46 PM by partgypsy »

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3595 on: August 16, 2018, 07:33:45 PM »
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

6X means 1 part in 1,000,000 parts water
15X means 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000,000 parts water
30X means 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 parts water
etc.
Wow, that is insane. I never even knew what homeopathy was until 10 minutes ago, and now I want my ignorance back. At 15x you could directly ingest arsenic, lead, uranium, alpha radiation, beta radiation, and every volatile organic compound ever invented, and not experience any side effect at all, even if that was all you drank for a decade.

Placebos have had some prettty amazing effects.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/placebo-health-science-brain-suggestible-you-erik-vance/
But I was going to speak up in defense of the placebo effect. I have never knowingly had the opportunity to experience it myself, but I understand that it kicks ass. It is probably underutilized in modern medicine.

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3596 on: August 16, 2018, 08:17:34 PM »
For the reason I came to this thread, I speculate that Trump, Trumpism, and Trumpistas have completely lost me as of today. Now while I generally aspire to liberal ideas, I am also generally moderate, and occasionally with some libertarian and even conservative ideas. When Trump won the election he said he would be president for all Americans and I am generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt more than I perhaps should, so I said OK what the heck. As of today, I think all my leanings are united.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/16/us-military-parade-originally-scheduled-for-november-is-delayed-to-2019-pentagon-says.html
What kind of commander in chief wants to spend $100,000,000 on a parade because he wants his military to emulate the French military?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/15/desperate-anti-trump-media-elevate-strange-trio-to-discredit-president.html
What kind of loser would hire Omarosa four times, the last time into the White House after knowing about the first three?
What kind of person would associate with, pay for services of, and defend a corrupt lawyer for decades?
What pseudo conservative would cheat on a pregnant wife with a porn star and then pay her cover up money?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/mcraven-trump-brennan-security-clearance-revoke/index.html
Between these two, which is anti-American?

These are all direct actions of the current President himself, there is no need for any media spin at all. These are all minor events in the grander scheme of current events, but the sudden confluence and general continuation has snapped the last few threads of anti-establishmentism or conservatism that may have tied me to Trump or any elected official who may be beholden to his primary voters at any point.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3597 on: August 17, 2018, 05:15:51 AM »
You guys seem so convinced that the placebo effect cured my poison ivy that I'm not going to argue that it didn't.  But, if a placebo cured me from getting poison ivy for the past 15+ year I am truely amazed by the power of my little mind. 


It could just be "luck", but I don't think many of you believe in luck either. 


I don't like Trump, so we still have that in common.  ;)

It's actually pretty common to become less sensitive to poison ivy as you age. Could just be a matter of timing.


Your mum always said you'd grow out of these things.

This is a little old but researchers have found an immune molecule in your skin that is sensitive to the active compounds in poison ivy.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160823103242.htm

I would be keen to see a follow up article to see how the research progressed but I could not find one while doing a quick google.

It definitely was not the water. Sorry.

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talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3599 on: August 17, 2018, 07:17:57 AM »
What the hell does this ingredient calculation mean?
''Active Ingredients: Equal parts of Echinacea 6x, Rumex crispus 6x, Taraxacum officinale 6x, Urtica urens 6x, Aconitum napellus 15x, Anacardium orientale 15x, Apis mellifica 15x, Bryonia 15x, Cantharis 15x, Croton tiglium 15x, Graphites 15x, Grindelia 15x, Mezereum 15x, Nux vomica 15x, Ranunculus bulbosus 15x, Rhus toxicodendron 15x, Sarsaparilla 15x, Sulphur 15x, Xerophyllum asphodeloides 30x''
[Number]x means "1/Xth this ingredient, X-1/Xths water." So in 19 mL, there's:
1/6 mL Echinacea
1/6 mL Rumex crispus
1/6 mL Taraxacum officinale
etc, etc, etc.

Most of the ingredients listed are not liquid, so with these solids what does the measurement mean?




You guys don't even know how to read the ingredients, but you're positive that it doesn't work. 

I read the part that said "Poison Ivy" take 3-6 drops on your tongue.  I did it and haven't had poison ivy since.  I don't care what you use for poison ivy. 


Let's get back to explaing to each other that Trump's an unfit leader.  We can agree that. 

I agree with Sol. It's pertinent to the discussion of Trump because one of the most frustrating things about his presidency is that he appears to be incapable of recognizing obvious truths that are presented to him . . . instead choosing to believe in whatever happens to make him happy.  There's a disturbing parallel with people who engage in homeopathy.

I don't think this is what 's happening. What we're seeing is Trump using the tools of the Presidency to bend and alter reality through altering public opinion. Republicans believe things because he believes them. Society is being cleaved by his usage of words, which do not convey facts, but to establish a social hierarchy of allies and outsiders.

But some intellectual Trump supporters--for example Dilbert Creator Scott Adams--have argued that society actually depends on people believing in these fantasies, and they must often be fantasies that conflict with others' fantasies. You'll note that I used the word "cleave" which can mean either to break apart or to fasten together. Many more people would engage in violence or de-stabilizing behaviors if they understood the facts as they are than do so when they buy into the various fantasies, one of the most important being the relative mobility of society.