Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 342187 times)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3500 on: August 14, 2018, 09:59:41 AM »
Note: The Democrats used several of these same tools to keep control of the House of Representatives for forty years.

Sure, the democrats historically have also stoked racial animus to support Jim Crow laws.  And it was just as despicable then as it is today when republicans do it.

This shouldn't be a partisan issue.  When democrats were racists that was wrong.  When republicans are racists that's wrong.  Tools like gerrymandering and voter restrictions are just the way they implement their racism.

But I can't go back in time and fight dead democrats.  What I CAN do, and what I think every single American should be doing today, is fight against racists in the republican party today.  Vote them out.

"The President of the United States is a racist" is not a sentence that we should just quietly accept anymore.  Just because it's been true for most of American history does not mean that America does our should embrace those values.

Agreed.  This whole excuse of "...but the other side did/does it too!" is the worst defense imaginable. It reminds me of elementary school kids who get caught and argue "but Timmy did it too!" 

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3501 on: August 14, 2018, 10:18:16 AM »
Note: The Democrats used several of these same tools to keep control of the House of Representatives for forty years.

Sure, the democrats historically have also stoked racial animus to support Jim Crow laws.  And it was just as despicable then as it is today when republicans do it.

This shouldn't be a partisan issue.  When democrats were racists that was wrong.  When republicans are racists that's wrong.  Tools like gerrymandering and voter restrictions are just the way they implement their racism.

But I can't go back in time and fight dead democrats.  What I CAN do, and what I think every single American should be doing today, is fight against racists in the republican party today.  Vote them out.

"The President of the United States is a racist" is not a sentence that we should just quietly accept anymore.  Just because it's been true for most of American history does not mean that America does our should embrace those values.

Agreed.  This whole excuse of "...but the other side did/does it too!" is the worst defense imaginable. It reminds me of elementary school kids who get caught and argue "but Timmy did it too!"

It also ignores the demographics and history of why racists have accumulated in one party or another. The south was populated by democrats for a long time because, guess what, Lincoln was a Republican who was the leader of that "war of northern aggression." So, what finally tipped the scales towards being Republicans? Johnson signed the civil rights act in 1964. As Steve Schmidt said in his interview, the GOP has become the party of southern evangelicals. (note, I am not saying that all evangelicals are racists, but there is a lot of overlap in that venn diagram). Similarly, the GOP of today doesn't look all that much like the GOP of 1975. Things change and there should be a statute of limitations on the use of apparent hypocrisy in party platforms. For example, the GOP under Reagan probably wouldn't have been pushing to make the party platform more friendly to Russia during the convention as we saw in 2016.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/08/republicans-russia-platform-fight-244672

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3502 on: August 14, 2018, 11:03:14 AM »
Note: The Democrats used several of these same tools to keep control of the House of Representatives for forty years.

Sure, the democrats historically have also stoked racial animus to support Jim Crow laws.  And it was just as despicable then as it is today when republicans do it.

This shouldn't be a partisan issue.  When democrats were racists that was wrong.  When republicans are racists that's wrong.  Tools like gerrymandering and voter restrictions are just the way they implement their racism.

But I can't go back in time and fight dead democrats.  What I CAN do, and what I think every single American should be doing today, is fight against racists in the republican party today.  Vote them out.

"The President of the United States is a racist" is not a sentence that we should just quietly accept anymore.  Just because it's been true for most of American history does not mean that America does our should embrace those values.

+1

There's pretty good evidence that Thomas Jefferson was a rapist and pedophile.  That doesn't (at least shouldn't) legitimatize rape and pedophilia among leaders today.  It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.  The difference is that we don't have to just accept it as something that happened today.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3503 on: August 14, 2018, 11:14:39 AM »
This actually surprised me. Manafort's defense rested today... without calling any witnesses. Closing arguments go tomorrow.
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/401748-manafort-defense-rests-without-calling-witnesses

I mean, does he think that there are no witnesses to call that would not sink him deeper, that closing arguments are where the case will be made, that a pardon is on the horizon, or that he's just sunk but won't make a deal regardless? I'm intrigued in how this plays out.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3504 on: August 14, 2018, 11:28:57 AM »
does he think that there are no witnesses to call that would not sink him deeper, that closing arguments are where the case will be made, that a pardon is on the horizon, or that he's just sunk but won't make a deal regardless? I'm intrigued in how this plays out.

I suspect that Manafort was smart enough to know he was cooked from the outset.  His only viable options were to be acquitted on a technicality if the prosecution ducked up somewhere, or to secure his assets while he visits jail and waits for his inevitable pardon.

Otherwise, he would have rolled by now.  Instead he went all in on the riskiest possible play, taking his chances on a probable life in prison because that was better than his alternatives.  Maybe he was afraid of a Russian nerve agent attack.  Or maybe he figured that admitting treason on trump's behalf would scuttle his chance of a pardon.

The electoral campaign of a sitting American President was run by a Russian foreign operative, a man who was literally working for a foreign hostile power, in secret, while sitting at the heart of our democracy.  Just let that sink in for a second, and then consider that the man this Russian agent got elected has refused to disclose his own financial ties to Russia. 

I'm pretty sure history is going to judge this whole episode as one of the darkest hours of our nation.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3505 on: August 14, 2018, 12:47:49 PM »
You must mean aside from the gerrymandering, vote suppression of minorities, vote suppression of felons, and failure to safeguard our infrastructure from the attack of a foreign autocrat who admitted in a press conference that he "wanted Trump to win".
True.
I meant that the GOP seems to be fighting demographic shifts which keep moving the country further from their older white base. Rather than attempt to appeal to younger voters and minority voters they’ve been hard at work building the walls you mentioned above. This holds them in power for another election cycle or two, but it won’t build trust in the groups they’ll need in the decades to come.

Note: The Democrats used several of these same tools to keep control of the House of Representatives for forty years.

And this is relevant to today how, exactly?

It's possible my post was confused for what-aboutism, and this was not my intent. Nereo's post made the claim that GOP might win one or two additional elections because of these tactics. I think the example of the Democrats doing it for much of the twentieth century shows that you can keep control for a generation through these tactics.

NewPerspective

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3506 on: August 14, 2018, 01:16:09 PM »
I' m reading a really interesting book right now called Democracy in Chains by Nancy MacLean.

I've only just started it but it is really interesting so far.  From the book review:

"Behind today’s headlines of billionaires taking over our government is a secretive political establishment with long, deep, and troubling roots. The capitalist radical right has been working not simply to change who rules, but to fundamentally alter the rules of democratic governance. But billionaires did not launch this movement; a white intellectual in the embattled Jim Crow South did. Democracy in Chains names its true architect—the Nobel Prize-winning political economist James McGill Buchanan—and dissects the operation he and his colleagues designed over six decades to alter every branch of government to disempower the majority".

She talks about the Koch brothers and how they have been funding all of this more covert activity for a long time.  And how the Republican party has changed in fundamental ways because of this.  She says there is a long term strategic plan involved.

I know someone who describes himself as a Libertarian.  He would never vote for a democrat.  I've always been really confused by this because he is also gay. We run in a very liberal circle, so it has just never made sense to me.    It is really interesting to see his mindset and values described in this book!  I get it now (and I still totally disagree).  (he didn't vote for Trump, he was/is a big Ted Cruz fan).

Has anyone read this book?

Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3507 on: August 14, 2018, 01:34:25 PM »

Barbaebigode

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3508 on: August 14, 2018, 02:18:50 PM »
MAGA=Making Asbestos Great Again!


https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/08/donald-trump-asbestos

I'm waiting for the "asbestos saves lifes" argument from this administration.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3509 on: August 14, 2018, 02:41:58 PM »
MAGA=Making Asbestos Great Again!


https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/08/donald-trump-asbestos

I'm waiting for the "asbestos saves lifes" argument from this administration.

I know a lot of older conservatives that talk about how great asbestos was and how maligned it became just because some (ok, a few hundred thousand) people developed debilitating and fatal respiratory illnesses decades after working with it.

RangerOne

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3510 on: August 14, 2018, 04:37:32 PM »
I would be leary of any theory that gives too much structure or planning to the state of either party. I believe all we can say with certainty is that money and power remain tightly coupled.

The upper crust of the business world and politics are always destined to be intertwined because they are co-dependent.

Really wealthy powerful people often get caught up in their own world view and ego. To the point to where they can become obsessed with changing the world to better fit their world view.The Koch brothers are one clear example of this. I guess on the left its Soros. But frankly as someone left leaning, I don't know shit about Soros and never hear about him. So I suspect to a degree that cuts both ways. Most on the right are probably mostly in the dark about what their supposed capitalist overlords are doing....

My point is conspiracy theories are more likely than not mostly fiction. Both parties are organic and disorganized. If you need evidence of this simply look at how quickly Donald Trump seized almost complete control of the Republican party an its base. You can't honestly tell me that Ryan, McConnell and  the Tea Party wanted Trump to have the power he does...

The Repubs for years had been trying to figure out how to appeal to minorities fearing that shifting demographics would kill their party otherwise. Then Trump sweeps in and takes advantage of the fact that the reality is that we are not there yet and you don't need minority voters.

None of this is well planned. Its one big opportunist cluster fuck. With like minded people banding together when convenient to attempt to secure advantageous outcomes for their group. And the vast majority of it is done in plane site with obvious but effective tactics. Like decades of sponsored media rhetoric to convince half the population that climate change is a hoax and immigration is a net negative.

Its lots of not so secret back room deals and spin to sell it to the public.

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3511 on: August 15, 2018, 04:10:25 AM »
Another book in the same vein is Fifteen Steps to Corporate Feudalism.  It argues that the changes to government and legal precedents over the last ~40 years are part of a deliberate effort to dilute the power of the majority, and install a permanent, "corporate"-controlled plutacracy.

The book is somewhat persuasive, and I share some of the observations and concerns with the author -- but like @RangerOne I am loathe to posit a conspiracy where simpler explanations will suffice.  As in, individuals and groups may often proceed along the same path without prior coordination, simply by working from a similar set of principles from a similar starting point, during similar times.  In retrospect it looks like a plan -- and as humans we want to see order and a feeling of control -- but in the same way wind and water work together to turn a riverbed into a canyon, democratic institutions can be worn away by nothing more than the gradual erosion of greed and incivility.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3512 on: August 15, 2018, 05:43:30 AM »
The Repubs for years had been trying to figure out how to appeal to minorities fearing that shifting demographics would kill their party otherwise. Then Trump sweeps in and takes advantage of the fact that the reality is that we are not there yet and you don't need minority voters.
Which is funny, because Trump actually picked up a higher percentage of non-white votes on the whole than Mitt Romney did, and did about the same as Bush with African Americans.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3513 on: August 15, 2018, 05:55:20 AM »
does he think that there are no witnesses to call that would not sink him deeper, that closing arguments are where the case will be made, that a pardon is on the horizon, or that he's just sunk but won't make a deal regardless? I'm intrigued in how this plays out.

I suspect that Manafort was smart enough to know he was cooked from the outset.  His only viable options were to be acquitted on a technicality if the prosecution ducked up somewhere, or to secure his assets while he visits jail and waits for his inevitable pardon.

Otherwise, he would have rolled by now.  Instead he went all in on the riskiest possible play, taking his chances on a probable life in prison because that was better than his alternatives.  Maybe he was afraid of a Russian nerve agent attack.  Or maybe he figured that admitting treason on trump's behalf would scuttle his chance of a pardon.

The electoral campaign of a sitting American President was run by a Russian foreign operative, a man who was literally working for a foreign hostile power, in secret, while sitting at the heart of our democracy.  Just let that sink in for a second, and then consider that the man this Russian agent got elected has refused to disclose his own financial ties to Russia. 

I'm pretty sure history is going to judge this whole episode as one of the darkest hours of our nation.

Sol, don't you think Trump will Pardon Manafort if convicted? I hope that doesn't happen.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3514 on: August 15, 2018, 06:03:04 AM »
The Repubs for years had been trying to figure out how to appeal to minorities fearing that shifting demographics would kill their party otherwise. Then Trump sweeps in and takes advantage of the fact that the reality is that we are not there yet and you don't need minority voters.
Which is funny, because Trump actually picked up a higher percentage of non-white votes on the whole than Mitt Romney did, and did about the same as Bush with African Americans.

I wouldn't make too much of that. Obama got a the highest percentage of black votes in his two elections for any presidential candidate, ever. Reversion to the mean during an election in which the candidates are both white (again) is hardly surprising. Hillary still won black and Hispanic votes by a higher percentage than the average Democratic presidential candidate dating back to 1980. But I guess that doesn't prove the point you were trying to make, does it?


talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3515 on: August 15, 2018, 07:06:57 AM »
I haven't read the democracy in chains book, but I'm familiar with James Buchanan (disclosure: I have a Ph.D. in economics).

And I agree with the attacks on him. He has grasped economic theory and readily created some impressive work there. But his willingness to simply ignore real world data--most succinctly documented here: http://www.aei.org/publication/quotation-of-the-day-james-buchanan-on-the-minimum-wage/print/--baffles me. (this speech was given after a remarkable splash made by David Card and Alan Kreuger in documenting fast food restaurants' staffing changes on the New Jersey/Pennsylvania border)

This is not representative of my discipline or our culture at all. As these new articles crop up blaming Buchanan for dangerous ideologies, I cannot help but take glee in them and hope that he will be left in the rear-view mirror of history and scholarship.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3516 on: August 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AM »
The Repubs for years had been trying to figure out how to appeal to minorities fearing that shifting demographics would kill their party otherwise. Then Trump sweeps in and takes advantage of the fact that the reality is that we are not there yet and you don't need minority voters.
Which is funny, because Trump actually picked up a higher percentage of non-white votes on the whole than Mitt Romney did, and did about the same as Bush with African Americans.
Missisippi Mudstache already gave a pretty decent response, but the above - oft repeated by Fox - is riddles with caveats and is intentionally misleading. 
Trump won a higher percentage of minorities who voted compared to Mit Romney running against the incumbant Dem. But DJT received a smaller percentage of the total available electorate of these minority voters.  In other words, DJT didn't get more support, HRC received less.  This opens the question about whether these non-voters might be swayed to the GOP, but polling routinely shows abysmal numbers - 9% approval among blacks; 17% approval among hispanics. These are worse than under either Bushes at the 2 year mark.  Importantly, these groups (particularly hispanics) will have a larger size of the electorate during the next few election cycles.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3517 on: August 15, 2018, 09:00:32 AM »
DJT didn't get more support, HRC received less. 

This will forever be the story of the 2016 election.  Trump got basically the same number of votes as Romney and McCain both got.  He didn't increase republican support at all, but what he did was very effectively suppress support for Clinton, with the help of some Russian foreign intelligence officers.

I know lots of lifelong conservatives who were pretty unhappy with Trump, but totally bought the "evil Hillary" line in its juicy completeness.  I have to assume that there were some independents who were also swayed by the coordinated Russian disinformation campaign, and genuinely believed that Clinton was some kind of criminal mastermind and existential threat to American democracy.  Boy did they screw up! 

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3518 on: August 15, 2018, 09:16:19 AM »
DJT didn't get more support, HRC received less. 

This will forever be the story of the 2016 election.  Trump got basically the same number of votes as Romney and McCain both got.  He didn't increase republican support at all, but what he did was very effectively suppress support for Clinton, with the help of some Russian foreign intelligence officers.

I know lots of lifelong conservatives who were pretty unhappy with Trump, but totally bought the "evil Hillary" line in its juicy completeness.  I have to assume that there were some independents who were also swayed by the coordinated Russian disinformation campaign, and genuinely believed that Clinton was some kind of criminal mastermind and existential threat to American democracy.  Boy did they screw up!

I would argue that it was not Trump that caused people to not vote for Hillary, it was Hillary's complete lack of political substance. She did not run a strong campaign and played to Trump's strength by going mostly "Anti-Trump" than driving any agenda. They both used Russian intelligence, and I know that doesn't make either of them correct. Her use of the DNC to black ball Sanders did not help her cause either. All of the things to hate the President for, Hillary's loss was really mostly her own fault.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3519 on: August 15, 2018, 09:29:20 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

LaineyAZ

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3520 on: August 15, 2018, 09:31:14 AM »
RangerOne,
re: "...Really wealthy powerful people often get caught up in their own world view and ego. To the point to where they can become obsessed with changing the world to better fit their world view. The Koch brothers are one clear example of this. I guess on the left its Soros. But frankly as someone left leaning, I don't know shit about Soros and never hear about him. So I suspect to a degree that cuts both ways. Most on the right are probably mostly in the dark about what their supposed capitalist overlords are doing...."

this is a comment I hear often:  the right has funding from the Koch brothers, the left has Soros.  The reality is that the Koch brothers network has vastly more funds than any amount that Soros has ever contributed - think at least 20 to 1.  Read "Dark Money" by Jane Meyer. 
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29412157-summary-of-dark-money

That's one meme I'd like to see corrected since it lets everyone shrug their shoulders thinking it's equivalent - nope, not even close.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3521 on: August 15, 2018, 09:33:54 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3522 on: August 15, 2018, 09:39:20 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

Right.

Now to further flesh out this false equivalency/false balance fallacy, how many people on Clinton's team have been indicted for their close Russian ties?  How many have been arrested for them?  How many are currently in trial?  How many of her family members have publicly admitted to collusion? 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3523 on: August 15, 2018, 09:41:31 AM »
She did not run a strong campaign and played to Trump's strength by going mostly "Anti-Trump" than driving any agenda.

While I find this statement laughable, we're not really here to replay the 2016 election.  That's Trump's favorite game, not mine.

But the one little part that I think is relevant to the future of this administration is the coordinated attack on Clinton to suppress democratic turnout, because that's what swayed the 2016 election more than any new support for republican ideas, and that attack is still underway for the midterms and for the 2020 election. 

Trump has openly refused to even attempt to secure our electoral process from Russian interference.  We know that voting machines were breached, we know that Russian operatives ran targeted advertising campaigns and successfully infiltrated the GOP and the NRA to influence their platforms.  Trump continues to coordinate with Russia to advance Russian interests, for some undiscovered reason that I'm hoping is just financial self-interest rather than genuine support for Russia at the expense of America.  At this point, I think the chances of Trump losing another election are pretty slim.  Like Putin, he won't need to get anything close to a plurality of actual voters in order to declare a landslide victory because the electoral process has been fundamentally subverted. 

And one of the LEAST illegal ways to do that, from among the list of very illegal options, is to use more foreign money to make up slanderous allegations against every political opponent.  Clinton and Eric Holder are running a child sex trafficking ring from a pizza parlor!  Hillary is so sick she's on life support!  Obama is a secret Kenyan Muslim!  What's next, Biden is the son of Hitler?  Maybe someone should have noticed that facebook ad was paid for in Rubles.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 09:44:04 AM by sol »

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3524 on: August 15, 2018, 09:45:41 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3525 on: August 15, 2018, 09:53:51 AM »
Yet--even absent that coordinated attack you describe--there was simply the lack of excitement for:

  • Promoting someone who'd been in politics for decades (thus accumulating the baggage that comes along with it),
  • was generally seen as centrist by the Democratic base,
  • Who represented a third consecutive term in the White House for the party in power,
  • Who issued so many policy briefs and papers as to overwhelm the median voter with volume,
  • Who had no chance to serve as President with her own party in control of anything for any of those ideas to matter.

At the time it happened, I thought Trump being the GOP candidate instead of Rubio, Walker, or Cruz meant leaving 100 electoral votes on the table, frankly.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3526 on: August 15, 2018, 10:00:48 AM »
I would argue that it was not Trump that caused people to not vote for Hillary, it was Hillary's complete lack of political substance. She did not run a strong campaign and played to Trump's strength by going mostly "Anti-Trump" than driving any agenda.

  • Who issued so many policy briefs and papers as to overwhelm the median voter with volume,

Is she boring people to death with her oversupply of policy and agenda information, or is she completely without political substance and simply running an anti-Trump campaign?  You can't have it both ways.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3527 on: August 15, 2018, 10:03:28 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

I thought the Fusion GPS was a real thing. I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing. I heard a rumor that the Clinton Foundation funded it but I guess someone made it all up. That is how I came to the conclusion that both had used Russian sources during the campaign. Someone should tell Congress because they are still acting as if they want some documents that the FBI is still stonewalling. Congress needs to read this so they can find out it never happened. Thanks!

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3528 on: August 15, 2018, 10:08:27 AM »
I would argue that it was not Trump that caused people to not vote for Hillary, it was Hillary's complete lack of political substance. She did not run a strong campaign and played to Trump's strength by going mostly "Anti-Trump" than driving any agenda.

  • Who issued so many policy briefs and papers as to overwhelm the median voter with volume,

Is she boring people to death with her oversupply of policy and agenda information, or is she completely without political substance and simply running an anti-Trump campaign?  You can't have it both ways.

Volume and "useful" substance aren't always interchangeable. Besides, the quotes were from 2 different people. She flopped on her stances every time she talked to a new audience. She would tell one group coal is going away and the next day she would cheer on coal miners telling them she would protect their jobs. She never took a firm stance on any policy and went into the campaign far too confident.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3529 on: August 15, 2018, 10:09:24 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

I thought the Fusion GPS was a real thing. I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing. I heard a rumor that the Clinton Foundation funded it but I guess someone made it all up. That is how I came to the conclusion that both had used Russian sources during the campaign. Someone should tell Congress because they are still acting as if they want some documents that the FBI is still stonewalling. Congress needs to read this so they can find out it never happened. Thanks!

Fusion GPS's investigation into Trump was started and initially funded by a Republican client during the primary.  You don't seem to be whining about that - why not?

Btw your conclusion-making process is horrific.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3530 on: August 15, 2018, 10:13:54 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

I thought the Fusion GPS was a real thing. I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing. I heard a rumor that the Clinton Foundation funded it but I guess someone made it all up. That is how I came to the conclusion that both had used Russian sources during the campaign. Someone should tell Congress because they are still acting as if they want some documents that the FBI is still stonewalling. Congress needs to read this so they can find out it never happened. Thanks!

Fusion GPS's investigation into Trump was started and initially funded by a Republican client during the primary.  You don't seem to be whining about that - why not?

Btw your conclusion-making process is horrific.

Fusion GPS is indeed a real company.

What is your source that the intelligence in the dossier compiled by Fusion GPS was from the Russian government?  Who is your source that the Fusion GPS dossier was funded by the Clinton Foundation?

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3531 on: August 15, 2018, 10:32:15 AM »
... Hillary still won black and Hispanic votes by a higher percentage than the average Democratic presidential candidate dating back to 1980. But I guess that doesn't prove the point you were trying to make, does it?
Trump won a higher percentage of minorities who voted compared to Mit Romney running against the incumbant Dem. But DJT received a smaller percentage of the total available electorate of these minority voters.  In other words, DJT didn't get more support, HRC received less...
The point I was trying to make was that we treat Trump's strategy as a victory of white voting capability over a minority coalition, and that isn't what actually happened. Trump's margin with white voters was up less than 2% and his numbers with non-whites were median: Better than the previous two elections, much worse than Bush II, and about the same as what came before that.
As sol said: Trump didn't win by getting a bunch of white non-voters to come out. He depressed turnout for non-white voters and figured out how to trade two white voters in one liberal state for one white voter in two tossup states.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3532 on: August 15, 2018, 10:43:48 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

I thought the Fusion GPS was a real thing. I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing. I heard a rumor that the Clinton Foundation funded it but I guess someone made it all up. That is how I came to the conclusion that both had used Russian sources during the campaign. Someone should tell Congress because they are still acting as if they want some documents that the FBI is still stonewalling. Congress needs to read this so they can find out it never happened. Thanks!

Fusion GPS's investigation into Trump was started and initially funded by a Republican client during the primary.  You don't seem to be whining about that - why not?

Btw your conclusion-making process is horrific.

Fusion GPS is indeed a real company.

What is your source that the intelligence in the dossier compiled by Fusion GPS was from the Russian government?  Who is your source that the Fusion GPS dossier was funded by the Clinton Foundation?

I said all along Accused of using Russian intelligence. I did not say the Russian government. And the Clinton Foundation and the DNC pools of money were largely interchangeable, that is how they black balled Bernie Sanders for funding since Obama did not leave much in the DNC coffers, much came from the Foundation, that is what Brazile came out and showed us later. I don't know what will become of the Congressional inquiries. I just argued that Clinton did much to did her own grave. The Russian intel was written by Steele that worked in Russian intelligence for years. I just don't see how everyone can scream collusion against Trump but also cheer on Hillary's purchase, and FBI subsequent surveillance. I stand by my original claim that both are accused.

jrhampt

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3533 on: August 15, 2018, 10:47:40 AM »
They both used Russian intelligence

Please provide your source for this information.

I apologize, they are both accused.

"Accused"?  On one side our intelligence agencies have repeatedly stressed that they were aided by the Russians.  That same side has admitted to taking a meeting with Russian operatives to find dirt on their campaign, and publicly encouraged Russia to interfere.  Putin also said publcly that he supported DJT's campaign.

The only one accusing HRC's campaign is the DJT and the GOP.

I thought the Fusion GPS was a real thing. I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing. I heard a rumor that the Clinton Foundation funded it but I guess someone made it all up. That is how I came to the conclusion that both had used Russian sources during the campaign. Someone should tell Congress because they are still acting as if they want some documents that the FBI is still stonewalling. Congress needs to read this so they can find out it never happened. Thanks!

Fusion GPS's investigation into Trump was started and initially funded by a Republican client during the primary.  You don't seem to be whining about that - why not?

Btw your conclusion-making process is horrific.

Fusion GPS is indeed a real company.

What is your source that the intelligence in the dossier compiled by Fusion GPS was from the Russian government?  Who is your source that the Fusion GPS dossier was funded by the Clinton Foundation?

I said all along Accused of using Russian intelligence. I did not say the Russian government. And the Clinton Foundation and the DNC pools of money were largely interchangeable, that is how they black balled Bernie Sanders for funding since Obama did not leave much in the DNC coffers, much came from the Foundation, that is what Brazile came out and showed us later. I don't know what will become of the Congressional inquiries. I just argued that Clinton did much to did her own grave. The Russian intel was written by Steele that worked in Russian intelligence for years. I just don't see how everyone can scream collusion against Trump but also cheer on Hillary's purchase, and FBI subsequent surveillance. I stand by my original claim that both are accused.

Steele worked for BRITISH intelligence!!!!  Sweet Jesus.

And the Clinton Foundation is a charitable foundation that has nothing to do with funding Hillary’s campaign.  That would be an illegal use of a charitable foundation.  Please get your facts straight.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:49:33 AM by jrhampt »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3534 on: August 15, 2018, 10:49:23 AM »
https://www.axios.com/muellers-map-what-35-indictments-tell-us--7f9d178a-9e31-494a-8ab3-2c46c4a9ab2d.html

Over 30 indictments and/or guilty pleas.

Nothing to see here, though--because both sides have been "accused", it must all be the same!

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3535 on: August 15, 2018, 10:54:52 AM »
https://www.axios.com/muellers-map-what-35-indictments-tell-us--7f9d178a-9e31-494a-8ab3-2c46c4a9ab2d.html

Over 30 indictments and/or guilty pleas.

Nothing to see here, though--because both sides have been "accused", it must all be the same!

Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3536 on: August 15, 2018, 11:04:21 AM »
Do you ever feel like there is so much disinformation and misunderstanding that correcting it is like shoveling water in a lake?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3537 on: August 15, 2018, 11:06:27 AM »
I said all along Accused of using Russian intelligence.

You did.  You failed to indicate that the only people accusing Clinton of doing this are the Republican party and Donald Trump though.

This is substantively different than the case you're comparing them to, as many of the Russian connections and ties to the president are no longer accusations.  They're fact, admitted by the perpetrators.


I did not say the Russian government.

Fusion GPS is an American company, and they hired a British spy to compile information under the behest of the Republican party initially.  I assumed that you were arguing that the Russian government were the source of their information.  This is apparently not the case.

What did you mean when you said:
Quote
I guess that Dossier with the Russian intel was a real thing

?

And the Clinton Foundation and the DNC pools of money were largely interchangeable, that is how they black balled Bernie Sanders for funding since Obama did not leave much in the DNC coffers, much came from the Foundation, that is what Brazile came out and showed us later.

Again, I will ask . . . can you provide any evidence for what you're claiming?


The Russian intel was written by Steele that worked in Russian intelligence for years.

Can you provide evidence for your claim that the British MI6 agent, Christopher Steele worked at the behest of the Russians?


I just don't see how everyone can scream collusion against Trump but also cheer on Hillary's purchase, and FBI subsequent surveillance. I stand by my original claim that both are accused.

Who in this thread is cheering on anything untoward that Clinton has done?  If Clinton has done something wrong, then by all means . . . lock her up.  But the thing is, you have to prove it first.  It can't be done based on a bunch of unsubstantiated lies/rumors/false equivalencies.  It also has nothing to do with the actions that Donald Trump has taken . . . except as a 'whataboutism' intended to obfuscate the discussion.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3538 on: August 15, 2018, 11:08:02 AM »
Watch at alot of fox much? Otherwise I don't see how you are coming to these conclusions. When I hear conspiracies I read Snopes and factcheck.org, to distinguish facts from heresay

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3539 on: August 15, 2018, 11:14:58 AM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3540 on: August 15, 2018, 11:26:30 AM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3541 on: August 15, 2018, 11:40:03 AM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.
Honest question: do you believe that Trump is not attempting to bias the DoJ? What are your thoughts on Trump's public shaming of Sessions if he does not do as directed by Trump? Or his consistent attacks on the FBI, etc for pursuing an investigation? Do you believe that it is, in fact, a witch hunt?

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3542 on: August 15, 2018, 11:50:26 AM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.
Honest question: do you believe that Trump is not attempting to bias the DoJ? What are your thoughts on Trump's public shaming of Sessions if he does not do as directed by Trump? Or his consistent attacks on the FBI, etc for pursuing an investigation? Do you believe that it is, in fact, a witch hunt?

I doubt there was ever a President that did not want the back of his Justice system. I think the people fired from the FBI were legitimately fired. I also think the Mueller investigation has gone on for too long, I would like to see it close out regardless which way it does so. He did not fire Sessions for recusing himself, and I agree with the recusal. I think the seizure of data from his lawyer was an insane overreach and agree with his dissatisfaction of that. I think the original scope of the investigation was correct but there seems to be an effort now, to find "something or anything", just to legitimize the investigation. If all they have is Stormy Daniels, I would like to see it end. If they are on to something important, and I can see why they would keep that under wraps, then finish what has been started and seek charges.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3543 on: August 15, 2018, 11:53:39 AM »
I think it's interesting that you think the DOJ is biased against Republicans. The DOJ unlike say the EPA is a conservative department. I think Mueller is doing an exemplary job, under trying and unusual circumstances. Remember, Trump has gone on record stating that he would NOT have promoted sessions to his post, had he known that he was going to recuse himself for the investigation, and asking him to intervene. Trump has already fired Comey, and wants to fire Rodenstein and Mueller if he can figure out a way to do so. So I'm glad the DOJ has your complete support to follow the money and conduct this investigation to its conclusion.


Oops I posted the above based on your previous post "I welcome the investigation" I guess, you didn't really mean that, if you want to wrap up an investigation that that has more indictments, at a more rapid pace, than any other investigation of its kind (including Watergate).


Remember, Clinton got impeached because they started an investigation looking for something, anything on him, and ended with him get impeached for lying about getting a blowjob in the White house. That is the bar Republicans have created. So, sorry, Trump, who doesn't want to release his tax forms, never divested or even reduced his conflicts of interests before becoming a president, so far refuses to answer any questions under oath. Those things would clear things up more quickly. Or, we can do it the hard way.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 12:00:38 PM by partgypsy »

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3544 on: August 15, 2018, 11:57:50 AM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.
Honest question: do you believe that Trump is not attempting to bias the DoJ? What are your thoughts on Trump's public shaming of Sessions if he does not do as directed by Trump? Or his consistent attacks on the FBI, etc for pursuing an investigation? Do you believe that it is, in fact, a witch hunt?

I doubt there was ever a President that did not want the back of his Justice system. I think the people fired from the FBI were legitimately fired. I also think the Mueller investigation has gone on for too long, I would like to see it close out regardless which way it does so. He did not fire Sessions for recusing himself, and I agree with the recusal. I think the seizure of data from his lawyer was an insane overreach and agree with his dissatisfaction of that. I think the original scope of the investigation was correct but there seems to be an effort now, to find "something or anything", just to legitimize the investigation. If all they have is Stormy Daniels, I would like to see it end. If they are on to something important, and I can see why they would keep that under wraps, then finish what has been started and seek charges.
I think there should be a clear distinction between it being The DOJ (aka, an institution of the gov't) and being HIS DOJ (aka, something that should be loyal to the president). Trump clearly wants the latter. The former is the one that is sustainable and good for our country and democracy.

The Mueller probe is about on schedule for one of these complex investigations. Would it be nice if it was clear enough to wrap up? Yes. Instead, the investigation is resulting in quite a few indictments. I would hardly say that Stormy Daniels is all there is (and honestly more of a side show to the real issues despite showing Trump's character and propensity for lying).

As of mid July, here's where the tally stood on "something or anything":
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury

There is plenty of fire. Trump is mostly adding smoke.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3545 on: August 15, 2018, 12:58:52 PM »
Mueller is a Republican. He was appointed as the Director of the FBI by a Republican president. He was appointed to his current role by Rod Rosenstein, who is also a Republican. Rosenstein was appointed by Trump.

How the fuck is this a "Democratic witch hunt," as some people are so keen to claim?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3546 on: August 15, 2018, 01:26:35 PM »
Mueller is a Republican. He was appointed as the Director of the FBI by a Republican president. He was appointed to his current role by Rod Rosenstein, who is also a Republican. Rosenstein was appointed by Trump.

How the fuck is this a "Democratic witch hunt," as some people are so keen to claim?

If it's not a democratic witch hunt, then it would be necessary to come to terms with the reality of what the investigation has uncovered.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3547 on: August 15, 2018, 01:43:17 PM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.
Honest question: do you believe that Trump is not attempting to bias the DoJ? What are your thoughts on Trump's public shaming of Sessions if he does not do as directed by Trump? Or his consistent attacks on the FBI, etc for pursuing an investigation? Do you believe that it is, in fact, a witch hunt?


Trump fired deputy attorney general Sally Yates when she insisted that his travel ban was not defensible in court (and this version of the travel ban had to be altered substantially before the Supreme Court upheld it 5-4).

Trump demanded personal loyalty from Comey (which was not pledged) then fired him. Trump ordered Sessions to fire McCabe after three months of highlighting his situation on Twitter. The news of this firing was broken after 9 pm Eastern time on the Friday night before McCabe would have qualified for a lifetime pension. That Friday night also happened to be during the NCAA basketball tournament.

Trump repeatedly bashed Peter Strzok on twitter, leading a chorus of conservative media to do so until he was fired by the FBI, against the recommendations of the IG report about his text messages. No problems with his work products have ever been reported.

Just today, the White House announced it was stripping former CIA director John Brennan of his security clearance, after Brennan appeared on television criticizing the President the night before.

If we lived in the world in which Trump was politicizing the DOJ, what would look different?

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3548 on: August 15, 2018, 01:57:00 PM »
Considering the FBI let her go from the start, Lynch gave immunity to every key player from the start, and the FBI only raided Trump's people, it is only likely that more would be found against Trump. Nobody raided, let alone fairly investigated Clinton because they were all pushing for her to become President. That serious degradation of the Justice System should worry people. How can Clinton's IT guy Pagliano be given immunity by the head of the DoJ in exchange for NOT talking, but Trump's lawyer be subject to a midnight raid with assets seized?

Ematicic, I appreciate you taking the time to share your world view with us.  I think it's a useful window into the world of Trump, where convicted criminals have convinced their public supporters that they are being unfairly persecuted by other criminals who nobody recognizes as criminals.  It's a chilling vision of American society, in which the entire US government and tens of thousands of good hard working law enforcement officers have all been duped into doing the dirty work of a small cabal of elite liberal overlords who only want to destroy your freedom, and have thus targeted your one true savior for unfair prosecution.

But, just for a second, can you maybe take a step back and consider how the world looks to the rest of us?  From our point of view, law enforcement officers have recognized a series of serious new crimes perpetrated by a crass and predatory businessman with a long history of criminal behavior, and his associates in organized crime.  Prosecuting these crimes doesn't look like an organized conspiracy to steal your freedoms, it looks like the normal pursuit of justice to preserve your freedoms in the face of criminal abuses by people who only seek wealth and power for their own sake.  Your savior provably lies repeatedly about his actions and his motivations for those actions, while undermining the very fabric of American progress, and yet people like you continue to believe that his lies are somehow in the national interest.  It's very frustrating for us, watching people like you who claim to love America actively try to destroy it instead of protecting it from people like Paul Manafort.

I welcome the investigation and also note that several unethical people on both sides have fallen. This is the transparency I have expected from government and am enjoying seeing what I considered a swamp, drain. I welcomed Trump initially because he was not as reliant of the donations that drove far too much of the political decision making. I still, do not believe that Clinton was investigated as in-depth and I am glad she did not win. I saw the election as Trump's ego versus Clinton's greed and no, I don't have a reference for that. I do not think Clinton would have been a good President, nor Bernie Sanders. I like Rubio, Cruz and the Republican candidates resonated more with me, than did the Democrats. First and foremost thought the DoJ needs to be unbiased and I think this Presidency will force that hand, to which outcome, I have no idea, but at least I think it will come to a close with people left standing that won't let it turn into the circus that it is.
Honest question: do you believe that Trump is not attempting to bias the DoJ? What are your thoughts on Trump's public shaming of Sessions if he does not do as directed by Trump? Or his consistent attacks on the FBI, etc for pursuing an investigation? Do you believe that it is, in fact, a witch hunt?


Trump fired deputy attorney general Sally Yates when she insisted that his travel ban was not defensible in court (and this version of the travel ban had to be altered substantially before the Supreme Court upheld it 5-4).

Trump demanded personal loyalty from Comey (which was not pledged) then fired him. Trump ordered Sessions to fire McCabe after three months of highlighting his situation on Twitter. The news of this firing was broken after 9 pm Eastern time on the Friday night before McCabe would have qualified for a lifetime pension. That Friday night also happened to be during the NCAA basketball tournament.

Trump repeatedly bashed Peter Strzok on twitter, leading a chorus of conservative media to do so until he was fired by the FBI, against the recommendations of the IG report about his text messages. No problems with his work products have ever been reported.

Just today, the White House announced it was stripping former CIA director John Brennan of his security clearance, after Brennan appeared on television criticizing the President the night before.

If we lived in the world in which Trump was politicizing the DOJ, what would look different?

Obama's DoJ was worse. Lynch handing out immunities left and right would certainly not fly in this day and age. I know, say whataboutism but I am just saying it is better than it was. The FBI was biased and went soft on Clinton because she was expected to be their next boss. Holder would have done anything for Obama and that Slush Fund was unprecedented over reach, again, I don't think anything Trump has done is as bad as the blatant things that happened on Obama's watch. Brennan is still plotting against the President but he is considered a hero because the left doesn't like the President. If an FBI agent vowed to stop Obama then it would not seem as such an atrocity to relieve him of duty. I think too many things were acceptable before that are outrageous now simply because people don't like him. I am one of the few here that thinks he won, so he should be given a chance, and I am fine with being a minority in that aspect. This can stay a why I hate the President thread, or it could morph into something more interesting like who should step up and what policies should they improve.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3549 on: August 15, 2018, 02:03:34 PM »
Obama's DoJ was worse. Lynch handing out immunities left and right would certainly not fly in this day and age. I know, say whataboutism but I am just saying it is better than it was. The FBI was biased and went soft on Clinton because she was expected to be their next boss. Holder would have done anything for Obama and that Slush Fund was unprecedented over reach, again, I don't think anything Trump has done is as bad as the blatant things that happened on Obama's watch. Brennan is still plotting against the President but he is considered a hero because the left doesn't like the President. If an FBI agent vowed to stop Obama then it would not seem as such an atrocity to relieve him of duty. I think too many things were acceptable before that are outrageous now simply because people don't like him. I am one of the few here that thinks he won, so he should be given a chance, and I am fine with being a minority in that aspect. This can stay a why I hate the President thread, or it could morph into something more interesting like who should step up and what policies should they improve.

Telling everyone that you know you're using 'whataboutism' as a defense doesn't mean that you're not dodging the original question.