Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 33890 times)

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #350 on: September 26, 2017, 08:10:55 AM »
Another effect of the Trump presidency: A bunch of people became single-issue voters on the issue of email security for a few short months, but then totally dropped that issue on November 9, 2017.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/report-kushner-used-private-email-for-government-business.html
Lock him up, lock him up! 
Crooked Kushner.

There seems to be some differences... but if he infact violated the law, yes... lock him up.

Given that Clinton handled 30,000+ emails on a private server, some of which (at some point) was classified, and didn't send them to her official email, and proceeded to purge them... and got no criminal penalties, I doubt Kushner will be punished in any way for 100 emails... most of which were sent TO him from others, most of which were news articles, and were forwarded to his official email per the procedures for handling work related emails.

Unfortunately, this will not be the silver bullet to stop Trump.

But for fucks sake, how, HOW do you lambast someone for an entire YEAR about this issue, and then immediately out of the gate, do the same thing?? It defies comprehension.   Is it that they don't get an official email until they take office, yet need email to conduct preparations? If so, then provide the official email address immediately upon election, or something.

DoubleDown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #351 on: September 26, 2017, 08:42:07 AM »
And don't forget Benghazi. Benghazi!! BENGHAZIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!
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DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #352 on: September 26, 2017, 09:37:25 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
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former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #353 on: September 26, 2017, 09:56:42 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
Not only that, but at the same time his tweets have given the North Koreans the excuse to say that the USA has declared war on them and they will feel free to shoot down USA strategic bombers in international airspace.  Fuck.
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dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #354 on: September 26, 2017, 11:19:49 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
Not only that, but at the same time his tweets have given the North Koreans the excuse to say that the USA has declared war on them and they will feel free to shoot down USA strategic bombers in international airspace.  Fuck.

Trump is an idiot in a lot of ways, but I don't think calling the DPRK leader a crazy fuck and other names is one of them. Note that there is no peace treaty and all parties of the Korean war are technically still at war. Not only that, the DPRK has indicated many times that they are no longer abiding by the armistice agreement reached in 1953. On top of this, both sides have violated the conditions of the armistice agreement many, many, many times.

The DPRK has also killed many ROK military servicemen since the armistice agreement with the most egregious being the sinking of the Cheonan in 2010. The proper reaction would have been to militarily deal with the DPRK at that time (or before) but the Obama administration and the ROK had no real response to the blatant attack.

Appeasement, sanctions, food-aid, etc. all of failed to stop the progression of the DPRKs nuclear ambitions. Previous administrations completely failed and now the Trump administration is in the worst position possible since the DPRK has nukes that can go on missiles- calling the DPRK leader names isn't going to make the situation worse.

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #355 on: September 26, 2017, 11:22:46 AM »
Actually, we never declared war on Korea in the 50's.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #356 on: September 26, 2017, 11:48:51 AM »
Actually, we never declared war on Korea in the 50's.

If by "we" you mean the United States individually, I agree.

If by "we" you mean the United Nations Command via Resolutions 82 and 83 of the UNSC I disagree. And the UN forces were under the command of the United States.

Also note that the ROK and USA have a Mutual Defense Treaty which obligates the parties to defend each other in the event of an attack. The DPRK has attacked the ROK several times to zero response.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #357 on: September 26, 2017, 11:54:56 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #358 on: September 26, 2017, 12:17:43 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.

Yup. Not to mention the fact that he probably *just* learned that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Like a couple days ago.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #359 on: September 26, 2017, 12:26:43 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.

Yup. Not to mention the fact that he probably *just* learned that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Like a couple days ago.

You're giving him a lot of credit for quick learning that doesn't appear to be supported by previous behaviour.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #360 on: September 26, 2017, 12:30:14 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.

Yup. Not to mention the fact that he probably *just* learned that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Like a couple days ago.

You're giving him a lot of credit for quick learning that doesn't appear to be supported by previous behaviour.

True. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he *still* doesn't know PR is an American territory.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #361 on: September 26, 2017, 12:34:07 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.
Yup. Not to mention the fact that he probably *just* learned that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Like a couple days ago.
You're giving him a lot of credit for quick learning that doesn't appear to be supported by previous behaviour.
True. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he *still* doesn't know PR is an American territory.
He'll get there and see an American flag. Then the wheels will start churning - "So that's why they wanted me to come here. Hmmm, this might be a good place for a resort now that all those houses are flattened."

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #362 on: September 26, 2017, 01:10:30 PM »
Uh, wait? I thought he was an asshole for showing up right after a disaster last time since it distracted from the rescue efforts?

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.



Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #363 on: September 26, 2017, 01:23:06 PM »
Uh, wait? I thought he was an asshole for showing up right after a disaster last time since it distracted from the rescue efforts?

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.
I don't remember anyone complaining about him showing up too soon, I think the complaints were about the way he did it and the hats he marketed.

On the other hand I don't think his showing up next Tuesday is something worth complaining about. He does much more egregious things on a regular basis.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #364 on: September 26, 2017, 01:29:45 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/donald-trump-puerto-rico-visit/index.html?adkey=bn

Quote
Trump: I will go to Puerto Rico next Tuesday

More than 3 million Americans without power, utter devastation on the island...and #45 can't be bothered to go there until next Tuesday.  What a joke of a leader.
If it happened in Alabama he would be down on the next flight out.  Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but they are brown, so F them.
Yup. Not to mention the fact that he probably *just* learned that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. Like a couple days ago.
You're giving him a lot of credit for quick learning that doesn't appear to be supported by previous behaviour.
True. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he *still* doesn't know PR is an American territory.
He'll get there and see an American flag. Then the wheels will start churning - "So that's why they wanted me to come here. Hmmm, this might be a good place for a resort now that all those houses are flattened."

He had a golf course there. Then he filed for bankruptcy and stuck Puerto Rico with a $33 million bond that never got paid back.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #365 on: September 26, 2017, 01:46:35 PM »
Uh, wait? I thought he was an asshole for showing up right after a disaster last time since it distracted from the rescue efforts?

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.

Strawmen arguments are fun.
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Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #366 on: September 26, 2017, 01:49:05 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #367 on: September 26, 2017, 01:51:31 PM »
Uh, wait? I thought he was an asshole for showing up right after a disaster last time since it distracted from the rescue efforts?

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.

Strawmen arguments are fun.

Yeah, they’re always easier than the real ones...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #368 on: September 26, 2017, 02:37:15 PM »
Uh, wait? I thought he was an asshole for showing up right after a disaster last time since it distracted from the rescue efforts?

Damned if you do... damned if you don't.
I don't remember anyone complaining about him showing up too soon, I think the complaints were about the way he did it and the hats he marketed.

On the other hand I don't think his showing up next Tuesday is something worth complaining about. He does much more egregious things on a regular basis.

The hat and how in the press conference he congratulated FEMA and others for job well done when in reality there were people still being rescued. I did not even think he met any people who were impacted by the hurricane/flood.

His staff tried to repair the damage by arranging the second visit - no more trying to sell hats, and this time he actually spent time with people who were impacted by the disaster.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #369 on: September 26, 2017, 02:51:40 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?
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Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
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paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #370 on: September 26, 2017, 04:15:13 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #371 on: September 26, 2017, 04:16:33 PM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #372 on: September 26, 2017, 04:20:32 PM »
Didn't the election prove the high road doesn't work?

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #373 on: September 26, 2017, 05:13:15 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #374 on: September 26, 2017, 05:54:32 PM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

Once you have spent time in the deep backwoods, way off the trail, and really mingled with the demographic I reference, come see me. The high road is over. High or low has fuck all nothing to do with getting us out of this mess.  we are being lead by a narcissistic psychopath who has millions of followers, who believe that he is a living god-king, that will magically make their world a wonderful place again. Trumptard is fairly polite, given the reality of the whole cesspool.

ixtap

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #375 on: September 26, 2017, 05:56:30 PM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

Once you have spent time in the deep backwoods, way off the trail, and really mingled with the demographic I reference, come see me. The high road is over. High or low has fuck all nothing to do with getting us out of this mess.  we are being lead by a narcissistic psychopath who has millions of followers, who believe that he is a living god-king, that will magically make their world a wonderful place again. Trumptard is fairly polite, given the reality of the whole cesspool.

Unfortunately, I have been there. I am related to them, I went to high school with them, etc.

paddedhat

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #376 on: September 26, 2017, 06:42:10 PM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

Once you have spent time in the deep backwoods, way off the trail, and really mingled with the demographic I reference, come see me. The high road is over. High or low has fuck all nothing to do with getting us out of this mess.  we are being lead by a narcissistic psychopath who has millions of followers, who believe that he is a living god-king, that will magically make their world a wonderful place again. Trumptard is fairly polite, given the reality of the whole cesspool.

Unfortunately, I have been there. I am related to them, I went to high school with them, etc.

I know the feeling. We spend our winters deep in very rural Florida. Being at a huge flea market during the election season was a lot like the bar scene from Star Wars, but a bit scarier. Dopey's comment about shooting somebody on Fifth Ave. and his followers wouldn't give a rat's ass, is straight up true.  Don't know how many here are well read when it comes to Native American History and the Plains Tribes, but the whole thing reminds me a bit of the Paiute medicine man, Wovoka and the Ghost Dance.

 As the great orange one pounds on the podium and screams,  "Put your MAGA hats on, listen to my nonsensical bullshit and believe! Follow me to a magical land where everybody who matters is white, women and minorities know there place, and coal mines, steel mills, and opportunity, abound for all of you real Americans!  I will roll back time to the 1950s. I will recreate the post war boom based on our dead and dying industrial past. Only I can save you from the dark hell you are living in, where a black was president, and queers lurk in you public restrooms. Only we, the pure ones, can MAGA!"

Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #377 on: September 27, 2017, 07:19:58 AM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

The more everyone takes the low road, the less there is worth fighting for.

When we Americans claw at one another like this, we are just playing into the hands of our rivals and enemies. When we destroy our liberties in the name of safety, when peaceful unity among diverse groups is disrupted, when we stop providing safe haven for refugees, when we become a beacon of hate and intolerance instead of love and welcome, then the jihadists, oligarchs, and authoritarians will have won. With the model of democracy so debased, how can their oppressed peoples muster enough hope to topple them?

Heaven knows I'm frustrated enough with the direction of the country, but it's important to not burn bridges. I find that a fair number of Trump voters I have contact with have minds open to change, which is why they felt they wanted to "give him a chance".  Some were poorly informed, some allowed a single issue to rule them, and yes, some have given into hate and fear. But when the economy tanks, as it surely will, an important percentage will change their minds.  We aren't going to see any come-to-Jesus moments where they come groveling to their liberal friends, but surely the disgust will come for 45 and his corrupt, totalitarian ways.  As Lincoln used to say, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time; but you can’t fool all the people all the time.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #378 on: September 27, 2017, 07:37:51 AM »
I do not like the term Trumptards any more than libtards. Take the high road or we will never get out of this mess.

The more everyone takes the low road, the less there is worth fighting for.

+1

StarBright

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #379 on: September 27, 2017, 07:38:33 AM »

The more everyone takes the low road, the less there is worth fighting for.


There is always the paradox of tolerance issue though.

And while I agree that using "tard" is NEVER appropriate, I have reached the point where I feel comfortable calling out beloved family members for their racism, hate, xenophobia etc and I'm not mincing words anymore. I'm using words that they are uncomfortable hearing and have been accused of taking the low road - but I'm gonna call a racist a racist from here on out.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #380 on: September 27, 2017, 07:45:44 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/politics/deleted-tweets-trump-luther-strange/index.html

Look at this petulant little man child.  He backed a candidate in Alabama who lost (Luther Strange) so he goes back and deletes the tweets that showed him supporting him.  LOL.

What a clown...pssst, Donnie, this is the internet, as soon as you click "send" it's out there forever.  Deleting those tweets accomplishes nothing.
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Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #381 on: September 27, 2017, 08:17:19 AM »

The more everyone takes the low road, the less there is worth fighting for.


There is always the paradox of tolerance issue though.

And while I agree that using "tard" is NEVER appropriate, I have reached the point where I feel comfortable calling out beloved family members for their racism, hate, xenophobia etc and I'm not mincing words anymore. I'm using words that they are uncomfortable hearing and have been accused of taking the low road - but I'm gonna call a racist a racist from here on out.

Calling out racism is not taking the low road.   If we want people to change,  we can and should point out racist behavior. But calling a person dumb or a racist will likely have the opposite effect.  Challenge the behavior, not the person.

BTW, I don't want to preach from a high horse. I constantly fight my judgement of the intelligence of some of my friends with different political opinions; and I also have held racist, sexist, and otherwise intolerant opinions in my life, due to ignorance.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #382 on: September 27, 2017, 10:20:58 AM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

Well, the Bush administration did the same thing and deleted 22 million West Wing emails from the private RNC server they were using, and no Republicans seemed to care about that either.  None of those emails were ever forwarded for record keeping or assessment of whether they contained classified material, either. 

I'm glad you are outraged, but the only meaningful question is whether this is a disqualifying event for your vote in 2020.  So many people on here were claiming that Clinton's email server was a make-or-break issue for them.  If that's really true, it would have been a make-or-break issue for Bush II, and it should be one for Trump as well. I'm not speaking about you in particular if you hold Trump to the same standards as Clinton. Honestly, I think that a large number of the people who were "outraged" about this email thing found it a convenient way to express "I think Hillary is a bitch" without the social cost of saying that out loud as a member of the upper-middle class.  People of lower social classes just went with the truer, and simpler, expression of their views. 

As for me, I thought: it's not ideal to not keep records for FOIA, but Powell did the same thing and the world didn't end.  On the other hand, the world could ACTUALLY end if Trump is elected and has access to nuclear weapons.  Decision was easy.

Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #383 on: September 27, 2017, 11:40:54 AM »
Just saw this article... have not finished reading it yet, but some may find it interesting.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/can-democracy-survive-tribalism.html

ncornilsen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #384 on: September 27, 2017, 12:29:49 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

Well, the Bush administration did the same thing and deleted 22 million West Wing emails from the private RNC server they were using, and no Republicans seemed to care about that either.  None of those emails were ever forwarded for record keeping or assessment of whether they contained classified material, either. 

I'm glad you are outraged, but the only meaningful question is whether this is a disqualifying event for your vote in 2020.  So many people on here were claiming that Clinton's email server was a make-or-break issue for them.  If that's really true, it would have been a make-or-break issue for Bush II, and it should be one for Trump as well. I'm not speaking about you in particular if you hold Trump to the same standards as Clinton. Honestly, I think that a large number of the people who were "outraged" about this email thing found it a convenient way to express "I think Hillary is a bitch" without the social cost of saying that out loud as a member of the upper-middle class.  People of lower social classes just went with the truer, and simpler, expression of their views. 

As for me, I thought: it's not ideal to not keep records for FOIA, but Powell did the same thing and the world didn't end.  On the other hand, the world could ACTUALLY end if Trump is elected and has access to nuclear weapons.  Decision was easy.

When I cast my vote for trump, via mail in ballot 2 weeks before the election, I thought he would defer to his advisiors, that beneath his bombastic, blowhardedness, he would defer to advisors, and govern this country as well as anyone. I expected constant fake moral outrage about inconsequential things like you see from the left about anyone republican... and was ready to ignore that.

What we actually got was him doubling down on being a blowhard, who seems to go out of his way to fuck things up, and does a horrible job of presenting what he does that isn't fucked up. The things I see people outraged about aren't unreasonable. He's doing nothing I wanted as a republican, he's undermining my credibility as a republican... and the moral high ground used to be a legitimately contested space. I find it hard to say trump holes a square inch of it at this point.

I won't vote for trump in 2020. I will actively work to get him rejected during the primary and hope for someone I could vote FOR to be there.

How does that square with the defense I find myself mounting for the guy? I'm a natural contrarian I guess. Sometimes i find the criticisms of trump petty and ignorant, and figure the other side is represented well enough.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 12:32:41 PM by ncornilsen »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #385 on: September 27, 2017, 12:48:55 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

Well, the Bush administration did the same thing and deleted 22 million West Wing emails from the private RNC server they were using, and no Republicans seemed to care about that either.  None of those emails were ever forwarded for record keeping or assessment of whether they contained classified material, either. 

I'm glad you are outraged, but the only meaningful question is whether this is a disqualifying event for your vote in 2020.  So many people on here were claiming that Clinton's email server was a make-or-break issue for them.  If that's really true, it would have been a make-or-break issue for Bush II, and it should be one for Trump as well. I'm not speaking about you in particular if you hold Trump to the same standards as Clinton. Honestly, I think that a large number of the people who were "outraged" about this email thing found it a convenient way to express "I think Hillary is a bitch" without the social cost of saying that out loud as a member of the upper-middle class.  People of lower social classes just went with the truer, and simpler, expression of their views. 

As for me, I thought: it's not ideal to not keep records for FOIA, but Powell did the same thing and the world didn't end.  On the other hand, the world could ACTUALLY end if Trump is elected and has access to nuclear weapons.  Decision was easy.

When I cast my vote for trump, via mail in ballot 2 weeks before the election, I thought he would defer to his advisiors, that beneath his bombastic, blowhardedness, he would defer to advisors, and govern this country as well as anyone. I expected constant fake moral outrage about inconsequential things like you see from the left about anyone republican... and was ready to ignore that.

What we actually got was him doubling down on being a blowhard, who seems to go out of his way to fuck things up, and does a horrible job of presenting what he does that isn't fucked up. The things I see people outraged about aren't unreasonable. He's doing nothing I wanted as a republican, he's undermining my credibility as a republican... and the moral high ground used to be a legitimately contested space. I find it hard to say trump holes a square inch of it at this point.

I won't vote for trump in 2020. I will actively work to get him rejected during the primary and hope for someone I could vote FOR to be there.

How does that square with the defense I find myself mounting for the guy? I'm a natural contrarian I guess. Sometimes i find the criticisms of trump petty and ignorant, and figure the other side is represented well enough.

I cannot imagine what led you to believe that, given everything you saw of him before the election.

Being a natural contrarian is all well and good, I guess... except that it can lead one to stubbornly defend positions that at bottom have no merit.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #386 on: September 27, 2017, 12:55:34 PM »
I cannot imagine what led you to believe that, given everything you saw of him before the election.

Being a natural contrarian is all well and good, I guess... except that it can lead one to stubbornly defend positions that at bottom have no merit.

All due respect to any Trump voters here (I've met a few in real life with similar sentiments about regretting their vote)...did they not watch one iota of his campaign?  He laid his white nationalist (and sexist, and racist, and...etc.) out there for the world to see.  Being a "businessman" or an "outsider" isn't good enough to "shake up" Washington or whatever other ideas people had when voting for him.

Anywho...the truly scary ones are all the white nationalists he's awakened who still support him (current polling shows he's somewhere in the vicinity of 38% job approval rating).
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jrhampt

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #387 on: September 27, 2017, 12:56:15 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

Well, the Bush administration did the same thing and deleted 22 million West Wing emails from the private RNC server they were using, and no Republicans seemed to care about that either.  None of those emails were ever forwarded for record keeping or assessment of whether they contained classified material, either. 

I'm glad you are outraged, but the only meaningful question is whether this is a disqualifying event for your vote in 2020.  So many people on here were claiming that Clinton's email server was a make-or-break issue for them.  If that's really true, it would have been a make-or-break issue for Bush II, and it should be one for Trump as well. I'm not speaking about you in particular if you hold Trump to the same standards as Clinton. Honestly, I think that a large number of the people who were "outraged" about this email thing found it a convenient way to express "I think Hillary is a bitch" without the social cost of saying that out loud as a member of the upper-middle class.  People of lower social classes just went with the truer, and simpler, expression of their views. 

As for me, I thought: it's not ideal to not keep records for FOIA, but Powell did the same thing and the world didn't end.  On the other hand, the world could ACTUALLY end if Trump is elected and has access to nuclear weapons.  Decision was easy.

When I cast my vote for trump, via mail in ballot 2 weeks before the election, I thought he would defer to his advisiors, that beneath his bombastic, blowhardedness, he would defer to advisors, and govern this country as well as anyone. I expected constant fake moral outrage about inconsequential things like you see from the left about anyone republican... and was ready to ignore that.

What we actually got was him doubling down on being a blowhard, who seems to go out of his way to fuck things up, and does a horrible job of presenting what he does that isn't fucked up. The things I see people outraged about aren't unreasonable. He's doing nothing I wanted as a republican, he's undermining my credibility as a republican... and the moral high ground used to be a legitimately contested space. I find it hard to say trump holes a square inch of it at this point.

I won't vote for trump in 2020. I will actively work to get him rejected during the primary and hope for someone I could vote FOR to be there.

How does that square with the defense I find myself mounting for the guy? I'm a natural contrarian I guess. Sometimes i find the criticisms of trump petty and ignorant, and figure the other side is represented well enough.

Thank goodness.  This comment gives me hope.  I had kept hoping that there had to be people out there who voted for Trump but after having seen his performance would not vote for him again.  What I can't understand is the large (>0) chunk of people who think he's been doing a fine job.  How can anyone possibly reach that conclusion, unless they were of the "burn it all down" category to begin with?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #388 on: September 27, 2017, 01:20:52 PM »
Surveillance state, hello.

Quote
According to BuzzFeed, the new rule could also affect U.S. citizens who communicate with immigrants on social media by making their conversations the subject of government surveillance.

Quote
The rule filed last week, however, goes beyond would-be visitors to the U.S. and would also apply to those who have already obtained a green card or gone through the naturalization process.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/352421-dhs-planning-to-collect-social-media-info-on-all-immigrants
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adolfoflores/people-are-worried-about-dhs-plans-to-gather-social-media

What country are we living?

Weren't #cult45 members up in arms about the NSA surveillance stories?  Where is their outrage now?

Next up...........Watch the Trumptards ignore the half dozen key players in the White House, Ivanka, Kuchner, etc... who were just exposed for, wait for it..................... using private email for official government business. Hillary does it, and they call for a public lynching, I'm assuming they want the same thing for Dopey's posse, right?

Hillary didn't go to jail... why should Kushner?

In all serious, I'm livid about this and want them to be prosecuted to the extent of whatever laws they broke.

Despite the difference in magitude and that no classified information was handled by Trump's staff's private email, and that they complied with the record's keeping requirement that they forward anything sent to a private email to thier official one (at least, so far it appears they complied), I can't beleive they would make that mistake after filling thier barn with the political hay they made off Clinton doing so. It's not the worst thing Trump/staff has done, but for fucks sake, it seems so easy to avoid.

Well, the Bush administration did the same thing and deleted 22 million West Wing emails from the private RNC server they were using, and no Republicans seemed to care about that either.  None of those emails were ever forwarded for record keeping or assessment of whether they contained classified material, either. 

I'm glad you are outraged, but the only meaningful question is whether this is a disqualifying event for your vote in 2020.  So many people on here were claiming that Clinton's email server was a make-or-break issue for them.  If that's really true, it would have been a make-or-break issue for Bush II, and it should be one for Trump as well. I'm not speaking about you in particular if you hold Trump to the same standards as Clinton. Honestly, I think that a large number of the people who were "outraged" about this email thing found it a convenient way to express "I think Hillary is a bitch" without the social cost of saying that out loud as a member of the upper-middle class.  People of lower social classes just went with the truer, and simpler, expression of their views. 

As for me, I thought: it's not ideal to not keep records for FOIA, but Powell did the same thing and the world didn't end.  On the other hand, the world could ACTUALLY end if Trump is elected and has access to nuclear weapons.  Decision was easy.

When I cast my vote for trump, via mail in ballot 2 weeks before the election, I thought he would defer to his advisiors, that beneath his bombastic, blowhardedness, he would defer to advisors, and govern this country as well as anyone. I expected constant fake moral outrage about inconsequential things like you see from the left about anyone republican... and was ready to ignore that.

What we actually got was him doubling down on being a blowhard, who seems to go out of his way to fuck things up, and does a horrible job of presenting what he does that isn't fucked up. The things I see people outraged about aren't unreasonable. He's doing nothing I wanted as a republican, he's undermining my credibility as a republican... and the moral high ground used to be a legitimately contested space. I find it hard to say trump holes a square inch of it at this point.

I won't vote for trump in 2020. I will actively work to get him rejected during the primary and hope for someone I could vote FOR to be there.

How does that square with the defense I find myself mounting for the guy? I'm a natural contrarian I guess. Sometimes i find the criticisms of trump petty and ignorant, and figure the other side is represented well enough.

Thank goodness.  This comment gives me hope.  I had kept hoping that there had to be people out there who voted for Trump but after having seen his performance would not vote for him again.  What I can't understand is the large (>0) chunk of people who think he's been doing a fine job.  How can anyone possibly reach that conclusion, unless they were of the "burn it all down" category to begin with?

The number of people who voted for Trump and would not vote for him again is a small portion of the overall people who voted for Trump. I mean, it might be enough to swing an election, but it's not a huge portion. He'll get 40% of the vote with almost 100% certainty, so that's a good 80+% of people who voted for him that'll vote for him again.

I vote straight GOP, so I'll vote for him again if he's up again in 2020. In retrospect, I would probably vote for Ted Cruz over Donald Trump in the primaries now. At the time, Ted Cruz seemed like a crazier option than Donald Trump.

Hopefully he gets primaried in 2020 or otherwise chooses not to run. Hopefully Rubio makes another go of it. Really hoping Jeb! stays out this time and tries to become a Senator or something. He'll do better there.


DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #389 on: September 27, 2017, 01:33:24 PM »
I'll vote for him again if he's up again in 2020.

Ah yes, the election is some 37 months away but let's go ahead and decide our vote now, regardless of any action or inaction taken over those next 37 months and without regard for who the other options might be.  What a joke.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 01:42:05 PM by DarkandStormy »
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DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #390 on: September 27, 2017, 01:35:37 PM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-appeals-court-consider-rights-gay-workers-050642792--finance.html

The supposedly gay-friendly Trump administration:

Quote
A Trump administration lawyer on Tuesday urged a U.S. appeals court in Manhattan to rule that federal law does not ban discrimination against gay employees.
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #391 on: September 27, 2017, 01:35:58 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.

jrhampt

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #392 on: September 27, 2017, 01:51:59 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.

I'd protest, but at this point I am fairly determined to vote a straight democratic ticket until trump is out of office - in all elections, no matter how small - just on the grounds that we need more people who are unwilling to put up with his shenanigans, and so far I haven't seen that from most republicans.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #393 on: September 27, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »
I vote straight GOP
So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
Wow. I'm not surprised that many voters do this but I would have thought someone who participates in intelligent (mostly?) political discussion would not be so closed minded.

You should take a look at the article about tribalism posted by Poundwise a little ways up. Even if you're on the side of right, what does it matter if both sides are unwilling to compromise? Are there any particular issues that make you vote this way?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:54:43 PM by Dabnasty »

SoundFuture

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #394 on: September 27, 2017, 02:25:14 PM »

Challenge the behavior, not the person.


+1. Shame is an incredibly powerful concept.  Most people are not innately evil (no matter how bad they may seem), and you will not have a remote possibility of being the person that helps them make a positive change in their character by attacking the person. Shaming racists and sexists only puts it in the shadows where it can fester unchallenged; it makes exactly zero social progress.  Why some people are proud to shout down people they don't agree with makes no sense to me because it doesn't do any of us any good, it just makes you feel better without actually having accomplishing anything worthwhile.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #395 on: September 27, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/politics/deleted-tweets-trump-luther-strange/index.html

Look at this petulant little man child.  He backed a candidate in Alabama who lost (Luther Strange) so he goes back and deletes the tweets that showed him supporting him.  LOL.

What a clown...pssst, Donnie, this is the internet, as soon as you click "send" it's out there forever.  Deleting those tweets accomplishes nothing.
Erased tweets, LOL.  He backed a LOSER!  That must sting.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #396 on: September 27, 2017, 02:41:55 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable! You're voting for a set of policy platforms, so you're voting DNC or GOP much more than you're voting for HRC or DJT. At the national level especially, the GOP mirrors my policy preferences a lot more closely than the DNC. It so happens that the GOP also does at the state level, too, though I imagine that can vary depending on the state. Were I in Alabama or something, I might want to increase school spending and therefore vote DNC for state rep or governor.

Our local elections are non-partisan. So you aren't running for School Board or Village Board as D or R, just as your own individual person.


But, yeah, I'd be a lot more comfortable voting for HRC if she were GOP than DNC. She'd have to work with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, and answer to the Koch brothers, rather than working with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and answering to George Soros. Those other players drive Presidents in opposite directions.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #397 on: September 27, 2017, 02:48:08 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable!

Play out the "worst case" scenario...Mueller confirms Russia connection with Trump campaign, but #45 escapes impeachment, #45 starts nuclear war with North Korea who begins firing at US mainland, #45 shoots someone on 5th Ave. (his words, not mine), no meaningful legislation is passed, etc.

You'd STILL vote for him?

That's not reasonable, that's insanity.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #398 on: September 27, 2017, 02:52:50 PM »
I vote straight GOP

So you're not swayed by any issues, positions, or person running?  Really?  That kind of blind loyalty to a particular political party at the cost of reason has always seemed odd to me.
To me, it seems quite reasonable!

Play out the "worst case" scenario...Mueller confirms Russia connection with Trump campaign, but #45 escapes impeachment, #45 starts nuclear war with North Korea who begins firing at US mainland, #45 shoots someone on 5th Ave. (his words, not mine), no meaningful legislation is passed, etc.

You'd STILL vote for him?

That's not reasonable, that's insanity.

Those are really extreme scenarios. There are extreme scenarios where other rules don't apply, but I don't think the majority of these are going to happen. The most likely is the Mueller one, in which case Congress will likely impeach him if it's convincing. I'm taking a low-information diet on that particular case and will wait for the probe to finish.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #399 on: September 28, 2017, 06:06:50 AM »
Can someone please explain why, while we are re-negotiating NAFTA, your President seems to want to start a trade war with Canada?  He put super high duties on softwood lumber a while ago, and now he just put a 220% tariff on Bombardier.  It was bad enough that Boeing was asking for an 80% preferential tariff, but 220%?  Given that the Governors of States who do a lot of business with Canada had already pointed out to him what an important part of your economy we are?  Apart from trade, we must be one of your largest tourist groups.  Ask the Governor of Florida about Snowbirds.
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