Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 342323 times)

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3350 on: August 02, 2018, 06:28:10 PM »
Your country has problems far, far beyond whichever corrupt clown is in office this week.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/us/arrested-voting-north-carolina.html



Quote
His crime: Illegal voting.

I didnt know, said Mr. Sellars, who spent the night in jail before his family paid his $2,500 bond. I thought I was practicing my right.

Mr. Sellars, 44, is one of a dozen people in Alamance County in North Carolina who have been charged with voting illegally in the 2016 presidential election. All were on probation or parole for felony convictions, which in North Carolina and many other states disqualifies a person from voting. If convicted, they face up to two years in prison.


You need to fix up gerrymandering and all the many and various ways the legislatures are seeking to disenfranchise voters.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3351 on: August 02, 2018, 06:43:49 PM »
You need to fix up gerrymandering and all the many and various ways the legislatures are seeking to disenfranchise voters.

Unfortunately, one of our two political parties has successfully taken power by abusive gerrymandering and voter suppression.  That shit works   Now they have control of the government, so they can do it even more.  This is not a problem that is as easy as "you need to fix it".

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3352 on: August 03, 2018, 08:21:45 AM »
I live in NC and all the republican controlled legislature spends their time on, is enact laws that strip power and rights from the Democrat elected governor, in favor of the legislature. And with the gerrrymandering, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Democrats used to draw the districts. But when Republicans came into power, it's gotten extreme. For example, the NC 2014 map, pretty much matches what you would get if you gerrymandered the state to get maximum Republican votes. North Carolina is a "purple" state. But you would never know based on how the districts are drawn. I think there should be a federal rule, that states that needs to have a nonpartisan group draw state districts. 13 states have this. The rest need it too.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/8/17271766/north-carolina-gerrymandering-2018-midterms-partisan-redistricting

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/north-carolina/#GOP
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 08:33:06 AM by partgypsy »

NorthernBlitz

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3353 on: August 03, 2018, 08:53:08 AM »
I live in NC and all the republican controlled legislature spends their time on, is enact laws that strip power and rights from the Democrat elected governor, in favor of the legislature. And with the gerrrymandering, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Democrats used to draw the districts. But when Republicans came into power, it's gotten extreme. For example, the NC 2014 map, pretty much matches what you would get if you gerrymandered the state to get maximum Republican votes. North Carolina is a "purple" state. But you would never know based on how the districts are drawn. I think there should be a federal rule, that states that needs to have a nonpartisan group draw state districts. 13 states have this. The rest need it too.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/8/17271766/north-carolina-gerrymandering-2018-midterms-partisan-redistricting

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/north-carolina/#GOP

I enjoyed listening to 538's podcast series on gerrymandering.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/the-gerrymandering-project/

I also think that "The Political Thicket" episode of Radiolab's More Perfect is a great episode about how gerrymandering started (and how good intentions don't always lead to good outcomes).
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/the-political-thicket/

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3354 on: August 03, 2018, 10:25:11 AM »
Gerrymandering can work against you if a wave happens.  Then the losses become much worse than if they didn't gerrymander at all.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3355 on: August 03, 2018, 10:48:05 AM »
The long(er) trends on employment.

Short synopsis: the trajectory under DJT is effectively unchanged from under Obama. The tax cuts have (so far) had no noticable effect on total labor force, wages or new jobs.



Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3356 on: August 03, 2018, 10:52:54 AM »
Any chance you could re-size those images, nereo?

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3357 on: August 05, 2018, 11:23:30 PM »
Further speculation about the future of a Trump Presidency:  MAGA Americans betray their country just to stick it to liberals.

Exhibit A:  "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat."



« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 11:25:40 PM by sol »

Kyle Schuant

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marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3359 on: August 06, 2018, 04:36:46 AM »
Further speculation about the future of a Trump Presidency:  MAGA Americans betray their country just to stick it to liberals.

Exhibit A:  "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat."





Pardon my French, but that's fucked.


partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3360 on: August 06, 2018, 07:57:05 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.


megaschnauzer

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3361 on: August 06, 2018, 08:14:20 AM »
things posted on the internet don't disappear. i hope this doesn't come back to haunt them.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3362 on: August 06, 2018, 10:05:03 AM »
I'd rather be an American than a Republican.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3363 on: August 06, 2018, 10:41:59 AM »
I'd rather be an American than a Republican.

Seriously. + 1.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3364 on: August 06, 2018, 10:51:24 AM »
It is my sincere hope that the Republicans won't even exist in 10 years.  I will send a thank-you card to Trump as he rots in federal prison.  Or at his home in exile in Russia, I don't care which.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3365 on: August 06, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.

I bet those guys loved the part in Rocky IV when Drago kills Apollo Creed. 

teen persuasion

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3366 on: August 06, 2018, 12:21:19 PM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.
Are these the same people who constantly freak out over "socialized" medicine?

Seriously, can we use reverse psychology to get something useful done by the politicians in power now?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3367 on: August 06, 2018, 06:05:09 PM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.

I bet those guys loved the part in Rocky IV when Drago kills Apollo Creed.
And it was an exhibition fight! Still pissed at Drago, but he was merely a fighting machine created by Soviet science, so maybe it wasn't really his fault.

carolina822

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3368 on: August 06, 2018, 07:30:40 PM »
things posted on the internet don't disappear. i hope this doesn't come back to haunt them.

I hope it does, and severely.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3369 on: August 07, 2018, 07:35:37 AM »
I'd rather be an American than a Republican.

Seriously. + 1.

Note: GOP successfully weaponized the opposite of this in the Gingrich-Walker Bush era. The dorm room next to mine proudly displayed one of many "There are Americans, and there are Liberals" bumper stickers. Power will figure out how to sustain itself.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3370 on: August 07, 2018, 07:38:16 AM »
It is my sincere hope that the Republicans won't even exist in 10 years.  I will send a thank-you card to Trump as he rots in federal prison.  Or at his home in exile in Russia, I don't care which.

They will discard Trump when he's no longer useful, replace him with either Pence, Paul Ryan, or Marco Rubio, and it will seem like 2017-2029 never happened.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3371 on: August 07, 2018, 07:50:02 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.
Are these the same people who constantly freak out over "socialized" medicine?

Seriously, can we use reverse psychology to get something useful done by the politicians in power now?

Well, we have managed to get people on the far left to actually recognize Russia as an enemy rather than a role model, so there's definitely some potential.  You have governors and AG's that previously used tax and spend and soak the rich rhetoric actually filing lawsuits against tax increases on the rich.  We have also seen some people historically skeptical of free trade (if not anti-free trade) start to see its value, although admittedly the anti-trade people have been disturbingly more "principled" on that issue.   

The democrats actually caring about the deficit is superficially good, but both parties have no qualms about only pretending to care while they are out of power, so that's not useful. 

People on the right are also seeing that law enforcement and intelligence agencies are not much different than other government institutions as far as their tendency towards corruption, so maybe that will flow down into more skepticism of state and local police? (I'm not optimistic on this one).   

But all that has to be measured against areas where we're likely to get the worst of both worlds.  I think free trade is one of these.  Possibly prison reform if the left attacks for it and the right doesn't keep it as an issue when Trump is gone.  I'm sure there are others. 

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3372 on: August 07, 2018, 07:53:17 AM »
things posted on the internet don't disappear. i hope this doesn't come back to haunt them.

I hope it does, and severely.

Don't worry.  It won't.  I guarantee that these guys are retired and getting government benefits subsidized by the affluent coastal liberals they despise. And you can't get fired from your SS check.

The only thing that could get through to them is if their kids and grandkids stopped coming around. 

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3373 on: August 07, 2018, 08:02:39 AM »

The democrats actually caring about the deficit is superficially good, but both parties have no qualms about only pretending to care while they are out of power, so that's not useful. 

 

Didn't both Clinton and Obama reduce the deficit in their time in office?  It's certainly complicated by control of Congress, but I wonder how that stacks up to deficit changes under Republicans under either party congressional control. I think the data shows that the deficit has the best reduction under republican control of congress with a democrat in the White House, but I can't remember where I saw that.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3374 on: August 07, 2018, 08:26:27 AM »

The democrats actually caring about the deficit is superficially good, but both parties have no qualms about only pretending to care while they are out of power, so that's not useful. 

 

Didn't both Clinton and Obama reduce the deficit in their time in office?  It's certainly complicated by control of Congress, but I wonder how that stacks up to deficit changes under Republicans under either party congressional control. I think the data shows that the deficit has the best reduction under republican control of congress with a democrat in the White House, but I can't remember where I saw that.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3375 on: August 07, 2018, 08:39:16 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.
Are these the same people who constantly freak out over "socialized" medicine?

Seriously, can we use reverse psychology to get something useful done by the politicians in power now?

Well, we have managed to get people on the far left to actually recognize Russia as an enemy rather than a role model,
 so there's definitely some potential. 


wut??? Party-wise, It was Reagan who normalized relations with Soviet Union under Gorbie. And it was a Democrat Obama who put sanctions on Russia and also led to their removal from G-8. While I do know some younger lefties who wear Chavez or pro-Cuba t-shirts, I don't know of any lefties who are are pro-Russia, or see Russia as a good role model, at all. That might be because Russia is no longer a socialist country. Its government is corrupt and controlled by a kleptocracy.
If you want to know what "liberals" see as role models, they see places like Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and Scandinavian countries, which combine democratic political processes, with socialized safety nets which cover everyone.     

Kris has addressed the canard that it is Democrats who blow up the deficit. It think BOTH sides of the aisle should care about the deficit. Rather than act when they are in power, that it is a candy store free for all. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 08:42:09 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3376 on: August 07, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.
Are these the same people who constantly freak out over "socialized" medicine?

Seriously, can we use reverse psychology to get something useful done by the politicians in power now?

Well, we have managed to get people on the far left to actually recognize Russia as an enemy rather than a role model,
 so there's definitely some potential. 


wut??? Party-wise, It was Reagan who normalized relations with Soviet Union under Gorbie. And it was a Democrat Obama who put sanctions on Russia and also led to their removal from G-8. While I do know some younger lefties who wear Chavez or pro-Cuba t-shirts, I don't know of any lefties who are are pro-Russia, or see Russia as a good role model, at all. That might be because Russia is no longer a socialist country. Its government is corrupt and controlled by a kleptocracy.
If you want to know what "liberals" see as role models, they see places like Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and Scandinavian countries, which combine democratic political processes, with socialized safety nets which cover everyone.     

Kris has addressed the canard that it is Democrats who blow up the deficit. It think BOTH sides of the aisle should care about the deficit. Rather than act when they are in power, that it is a candy store free for all.

Russia was always kinda an embarrassing example of the many failures of communism.  I don't know many people on the left who were ever pro-Russia.  As you mentioned, there are so many socialist success stories it would be weird to try to talk up the extreme failures . . . it would be like a died in the wool Libertarian arguing that his philosophy is totally awesome because of how wonderful Somalia is.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3377 on: August 07, 2018, 09:38:02 AM »

The democrats actually caring about the deficit is superficially good, but both parties have no qualms about only pretending to care while they are out of power, so that's not useful. 

 

Didn't both Clinton and Obama reduce the deficit in their time in office?  It's certainly complicated by control of Congress, but I wonder how that stacks up to deficit changes under Republicans under either party congressional control. I think the data shows that the deficit has the best reduction under republican control of congress with a democrat in the White House, but I can't remember where I saw that.

It's not just control of congress, it's also so much of the spending being baked in.  Arguably the congress and president who initiated medicare deserve a lot of blame for future deficits.  Certainly the congress and president who signed off on the Social Security "fix" deserve scorn and a lot of blame for future deficits.

And then you have to look at political realities.  Does George W Bush deserve blame for the unfunded Medicare D expansion?  Or credit for keeping it less expensive than it otherwise would have been?

But regardless, neither party really cares except when they're out of power, or I guess more accurately don't occupy the whitehouse.  If we went back to having separation of powers and enforcing a much more restrictive version of the nondelegation doctrine, I'd probably prefer a democrat president and republican congress, but restraining spending by congress doesn't mean much when the president can impose hundreds of billions of costs on people through the administrative process. 

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3378 on: August 07, 2018, 09:43:51 AM »
So, Republicans put being "Republican" over being "American". That's straight up un-American. I think they should move to Russia and see how much they actually like being "Russian", and following Russian laws.
Are these the same people who constantly freak out over "socialized" medicine?

Seriously, can we use reverse psychology to get something useful done by the politicians in power now?

Well, we have managed to get people on the far left to actually recognize Russia as an enemy rather than a role model,
 so there's definitely some potential. 


wut??? Party-wise, It was Reagan who normalized relations with Soviet Union under Gorbie. And it was a Democrat Obama who put sanctions on Russia and also led to their removal from G-8. While I do know some younger lefties who wear Chavez or pro-Cuba t-shirts, I don't know of any lefties who are are pro-Russia, or see Russia as a good role model, at all. That might be because Russia is no longer a socialist country. Its government is corrupt and controlled by a kleptocracy.
If you want to know what "liberals" see as role models, they see places like Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and Scandinavian countries, which combine democratic political processes, with socialized safety nets which cover everyone.     

Kris has addressed the canard that it is Democrats who blow up the deficit. It think BOTH sides of the aisle should care about the deficit. Rather than act when they are in power, that it is a candy store free for all.

Granted, it's a little bit out of vogue now with the younger generation more focused on fashionable mass murderers like Chavez and Che, but that's just the new flavor of admiration for mass murderers.  Used to be much more common to have communist apologists and afficianados focused on Russia through the coldwar.  Walter Duranty was probably the most famous example, but there were plenty that continued his tradition in academia and the government well after he passed and through the duration of the cold war.  The jackasses going around adoring Che and Chavez now are just younger versions of the people who used to go around adoring communism in the USSR.

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3379 on: August 07, 2018, 09:50:01 AM »
I had never heard of Walter Duranty, so I had to look him up. An Englishman and journalist that died over 60 years ago? I'm going to need some better examples before I'm swayed.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3380 on: August 07, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
I had never heard of Walter Duranty, so I had to look him up. An Englishman and journalist that died over 60 years ago? I'm going to need some better examples before I'm swayed.

Well, how many famous jackasses can you name who have worn Che shirts?  I mean there definitely are some, but not any that stick in my mind.  The only one I can think of is the Kapernick (sp?) guy that used to be a NFL QB, but that's just because i saw something about it the other day. 

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3381 on: August 07, 2018, 10:18:42 AM »
I had never heard of Walter Duranty, so I had to look him up. An Englishman and journalist that died over 60 years ago? I'm going to need some better examples before I'm swayed.

Well, how many famous jackasses can you name who have worn Che shirts?  I mean there definitely are some, but not any that stick in my mind.  The only one I can think of is the Kapernick (sp?) guy that used to be a NFL QB, but that's just because i saw something about it the other day.

Most people wearing Che t-shirts wouldn't be able to tell you the name of the person on their shirt, much less what he did or his political views. To them his face looks cool on a shirt or perhaps, if it represents anything to them, it's a general sense of rebellion.

Going back to your original comment
Quote
Well, we have managed to get people on the far left to actually recognize Russia as an enemy rather than a role model, so there's definitely some potential. 
I don't know what you were trying to say. Were you implying that the current Russia affairs are responsible for these far left individuals recognizing Russia as an enemy? Or did you mean something else?

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3382 on: August 07, 2018, 10:25:12 AM »
I had never heard of Walter Duranty, so I had to look him up. An Englishman and journalist that died over 60 years ago? I'm going to need some better examples before I'm swayed.

Well, how many famous jackasses can you name who have worn Che shirts?  I mean there definitely are some, but not any that stick in my mind.  The only one I can think of is the Kapernick (sp?) guy that used to be a NFL QB, but that's just because i saw something about it the other day.

I suspect that many of the people who wear Che Guevara T-shirts (at least the ones aware of who is on the shirt) are more drawn to his idealism and freedom fighting than communism and executions.

The famous jackass Nelson Mandela (for example) referred to Che as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom".

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3383 on: August 07, 2018, 11:51:05 AM »
Sorry I mean "Che" not Chavez t-shirts. And yeah I don't think many people who wear the shirts do it for a particularly articulated political stance, more for the sentiment of rebellion, standing up to the Man, etc. Still think it's better to wear one of those shirts than "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat" shirt. Because if you are American, you should be at least a little more knowledgeable on who Russians are and who Democrats are.

If you are going back to the 50's, it was during the Cold war. We were in a literal cold war with Russia, I don't recall any kind of popular sympathy for Russia, either right or left. Then again the US wasn't as politically divided as it is at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_liberal

I'm glad that people like JR855 talk, because otherwise I wouldn't know about the many preconceptions that conservatives have about liberals. It makes me wonder where these misconceptions come from.



   
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 11:57:22 AM by partgypsy »

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3384 on: August 07, 2018, 01:29:26 PM »
I'm glad that people like JR855 talk, because otherwise I wouldn't know about the many preconceptions that conservatives have about liberals. It makes me wonder where these misconceptions come from.
Perhaps the same place from which spring misconceptions that liberals have about conservatives.  Seems a fair amount of that going around.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3385 on: August 07, 2018, 02:52:16 PM »
I'm glad that people like JR855 talk, because otherwise I wouldn't know about the many preconceptions that conservatives have about liberals. It makes me wonder where these misconceptions come from.
Perhaps the same place from which spring misconceptions that liberals have about conservatives.  Seems a fair amount of that going around.

I dunno. Between the pro-Russia anti-Dem t-shirts and statistics now showing Republicans in the majority either support or have no issues with Russia meddling, I would say perhaps we have underestimated Republicans. Add death threats towards journalist and it doesn't look good for Republicans. Also Republican support for Trump has only increased since the elections. Support for Putin has doubled since Trump took office.

But yeah, I am sure it's just all a misconception. And we all probably just misunderstand Trump. Good grief!

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3386 on: August 07, 2018, 03:06:29 PM »
But yeah, I am sure it's just all a misconception.
Yup, lots of those on all sides.

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3387 on: August 07, 2018, 04:54:40 PM »
Most people wearing Che t-shirts wouldn't be able to tell you the name of the person on their shirt, much less what he did or his political views. To them his face looks cool on a shirt or perhaps, if it represents anything to them, it's a general sense of rebellion.

I can buy that, most people are too unlearned to know the stories behind some pictures.

~half of R (46%, N=372) believe Russia meddled with the election, this number is not drastically different from how the independents answered (53%, N=204).

But yeah, I am sure it's just all a misconception.
Yup, lots of those on all sides.

Yes folks that still deny Russian meddling is a problem, but they exist all along the spectrum, ranging from R to I to D (15%). If we assume these ratios are representative of Americans' political affiliation, where ~30% are D, ~25% are R, and ~45% are I. Then in the general population, ~40% (which actually matches up with the article number) denies Russia meddling.

Of that 40%:

11.5% R
23.9% I
4.5% D

Still think R is the biggest problem here?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 05:28:34 PM by anisotropy »

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3388 on: August 07, 2018, 08:20:18 PM »
If you read the articles, says 34% of Republicans do not believe there was meddling. And that 30% do not approve of Mueller's performance, when really he is doing an exemplary job. I do think that's a problem. Sad to say the independents are coming off as the least informed and least interested in currents events.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 08:22:41 PM by partgypsy »

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3389 on: August 08, 2018, 06:27:15 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3390 on: August 08, 2018, 07:17:48 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?
Worth noting that Sanders is still an independent who caucuses with the Dems, and not a Democrat.  As for which Dem would 'drive the bus' - that won't start to crystalize until we're into primary season in 2020.  And that's not at all unusual; few took Obama seriously in 2007, DJT wasn't even seriously discussed in 2015, and Romney was just one of a dozen or so potentials on the table in 2011. The challenger to the incumbent party is rarely predictable 2 years before the election.

regarding who do I consider that would fix [many] of the problems witht he current administration - here I can honestly say dozens and dozens of people from both major parties. Starting trade wars, alienating our allies, stoking racial divides, giving legitimacy and equivalence to dictators, appointing wholly unqualified lackies to high-level positions, undermining our intelligence agenies... I think you could have picked any other candidate from the 2016 primaries and these issues would not be nearly as prevalent.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3391 on: August 08, 2018, 07:26:51 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?
Worth noting that Sanders is still an independent who caucuses with the Dems, and not a Democrat.  As for which Dem would 'drive the bus' - that won't start to crystalize until we're into primary season in 2020.  And that's not at all unusual; few took Obama seriously in 2007, DJT wasn't even seriously discussed in 2015, and Romney was just one of a dozen or so potentials on the table in 2011. The challenger to the incumbent party is rarely predictable 2 years before the election.


In 1976, Ronald Reagan narrowly lost out on the GOP nomination (which was won by sitting President Gerald Ford). In 1980, George HW Bush won primaries in 4 states, showing strongly enough that Reagan was forced to choose him as a running mate. Bob Dole was 2nd in 1988. John McCain was 2nd in 2000. Mitt Romney was 2nd in 2008.

So Republicans very often pick the Runner-up from the previous time. If it had happened in 2016, it would have been Rick Santorum. George W. Bush and Trump are the only two Republican nominees who weren't the runners-up in the previous election cycle.

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3392 on: August 08, 2018, 07:36:38 AM »
Hillary Clinton was also second in 2008. The next person up might work well for football teams, but not so much in politics.

I'm hoping for some fresh blood all across the political spectrum. Drain the Swamp and stuff.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3393 on: August 08, 2018, 07:48:48 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?

The Donald Trump problem has little to do with Left/Right disagreements of viewpoint.

It includes (but certainly is not limited to):
- nepotism
- hiring of incompetent people
- a steady stream of blatant (and easily disproven) lies directly from the administration
- personal attacks against individual citizens by the president
- attacking media organizations who report the presidents mistakes
- blatant use of government power for personal enrichment by the president and his family
- foreign policy decisions made to distract the public from investigations into wrongdoing by the president
- obvious foreign (Russian) control over the president / long list of monetary ties between the president and people around him to Russia
- praising nazis, religious based travel bans, government forced separation of children from parents (with no plan to return them), pardoning the sheriff who oversaw the worst pattern of racial profiling in US history
- A long stream of racist comments (Mexicans are rapists, claiming that a Mexican judge can't do his job because of his race, Africans come from shithole countries, Haitians and Nigerians all have AIDS, calling Elizabeth Warren 'Pocahontes', etc.)
etc.

Near as I can figure, those aren't really right wing policies (you can correct me if I've got it wrong and they are fundamental to the right wing viewpoint).  You don't need a socialist to fix these problems, just a commander in chief (from either side of the political spectrum) who is less of a twat.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3394 on: August 08, 2018, 08:49:14 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?

Elizabeth Warren.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3395 on: August 08, 2018, 09:20:22 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?

The Donald Trump problem has little to do with Left/Right disagreements of viewpoint.

It includes (but certainly is not limited to):
- nepotism
- hiring of incompetent people
- a steady stream of blatant (and easily disproven) lies directly from the administration
- personal attacks against individual citizens by the president
- attacking media organizations who report the presidents mistakes
- blatant use of government power for personal enrichment by the president and his family
- foreign policy decisions made to distract the public from investigations into wrongdoing by the president
- obvious foreign (Russian) control over the president / long list of monetary ties between the president and people around him to Russia
- praising nazis, religious based travel bans, government forced separation of children from parents (with no plan to return them), pardoning the sheriff who oversaw the worst pattern of racial profiling in US history
- A long stream of racist comments (Mexicans are rapists, claiming that a Mexican judge can't do his job because of his race, Africans come from shithole countries, Haitians and Nigerians all have AIDS, calling Elizabeth Warren 'Pocahontes', etc.)
etc.

Near as I can figure, those aren't really right wing policies (you can correct me if I've got it wrong and they are fundamental to the right wing viewpoint).  You don't need a socialist to fix these problems, just a commander in chief (from either side of the political spectrum) who is less of a twat.

You left out undermining the rule of law through statements that flatly contradict the protections of due process specified in the Constitution. But otherwise this is a pretty decent list.

anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3396 on: August 08, 2018, 09:44:08 AM »
Curious to hear from you guys if you think Bernie Sanders is actually still a contender? He is all over the news but I think he would not improve anything. I don't see many strong Democrats in the pipeline that could really drive the bus from the far left, and there aren't very many in the middle. So as far as the thread goes, who do you consider that would fix all you see wrong with the current administration?

The Donald Trump problem has little to do with Left/Right disagreements of viewpoint.

It includes (but certainly is not limited to):
- nepotism
- hiring of incompetent people
- a steady stream of blatant (and easily disproven) lies directly from the administration
- personal attacks against individual citizens by the president
- attacking media organizations who report the presidents mistakes
- blatant use of government power for personal enrichment by the president and his family
- foreign policy decisions made to distract the public from investigations into wrongdoing by the president
- obvious foreign (Russian) control over the president / long list of monetary ties between the president and people around him to Russia
- praising nazis, religious based travel bans, government forced separation of children from parents (with no plan to return them), pardoning the sheriff who oversaw the worst pattern of racial profiling in US history
- A long stream of racist comments (Mexicans are rapists, claiming that a Mexican judge can't do his job because of his race, Africans come from shithole countries, Haitians and Nigerians all have AIDS, calling Elizabeth Warren 'Pocahontes', etc.)
etc.

Near as I can figure, those aren't really right wing policies (you can correct me if I've got it wrong and they are fundamental to the right wing viewpoint).  You don't need a socialist to fix these problems, just a commander in chief (from either side of the political spectrum) who is less of a twat.

I agree with this.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3397 on: August 08, 2018, 11:08:07 AM »
It includes (but certainly is not limited to):
- nepotism
- hiring of incompetent people
- a steady stream of blatant (and easily disproven) lies directly from the administration
- personal attacks against individual citizens by the president
Agreed.

Quote
- attacking media organizations who report the presidents mistakes
Yes, they do report mistakes and rightly so.  They also get much wrong, and deserve to be called out for that as well.
Quote
- blatant use of government power for personal enrichment by the president and his family
Most presidents end up being enriched by the office.

Quote
- foreign policy decisions made to distract the public from investigations into wrongdoing by the president
Maybe.  Or maybe some just don't like the policy decisions and use this charge as a way to attack the decision.

Quote
- obvious foreign (Russian) control over the president / long list of monetary ties between the president and people around him to Russia
Not obvious and any global business will likely have monetary interactions with Russia.

Quote
- praising nazis, religious based travel bans
Nope.  Unless you're referring to those dastardly Venezuelan Roman Catholics?

Quote
government forced separation of children from parents (with no plan to return them),
Agreed.  Although, this says as much about governmental inefficiency as it does about Trump.

Quote
pardoning the sheriff who oversaw the worst pattern of racial profiling in US history
Don't know enough about Arpaio's details to comment.

Quote
A long stream of racist comments (Mexicans are rapists, claiming that a Mexican judge can't do his job because of his race, Africans come from shithole countries, Haitians and Nigerians all have AIDS, calling Elizabeth Warren 'Pocahontes', etc.)
Agree with some (primarily the judge comment) but not all (e.g., it does appear Warren deserves some chiding at least for claiming "Native American" status).

Quote
Near as I can figure, those aren't really right wing policies (you can correct me if I've got it wrong and they are fundamental to the right wing viewpoint).  You don't need a socialist to fix these problems, just a commander in chief (from either side of the political spectrum) who is less of a twat.
No doubt Trump is very good at shooting himself in the foot.  He also seems to cause his opponents to overreact and diminish their credibility among the all-important "independent" voters.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3398 on: August 08, 2018, 12:11:47 PM »
I would argue that--while these are not right wing positions--a lot of conservatives are drawn into defending Trump because they feel like, gosh darn it, a Republican won the election and now the wolves are circling and why won't anyone treat a conservative fairly when he wins an election.

I'm not defending this view, just trying to express it.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3399 on: August 08, 2018, 12:14:44 PM »
Oh-I'm not sure about that overreacting.  Did Fox news worry about turning off independents when they whipped themselves into a frenzy about Michelle trying to get kids to eat vegetables and tan suits?  I think that the outrage helped keep their base motivated. 

I'm pretty outraged about our president colluding with a foreign government to receive stolen property and then not enforcing sanctions against them that were voted into law by Congress. I'm pretty outraged about the FCC striking Net Neutrality.  I am likely to stay that way for quite some time, and it's definitely made me more politically engaged and active.  And I'm the kind of rich libertarianish voter who should be a Republican.