Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 263493 times)

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3250 on: July 31, 2018, 07:27:05 AM »
"My client (Trump) didn't do it (collusion), and even if he did it, it's not a crime."

-Rudolph Giuliani

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3251 on: July 31, 2018, 07:39:27 AM »
"My client (Trump) didn't do it (collusion), and even if he did it, it's not a crime."

-Rudolph Giuliani
With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies?
Giuliani et co. are trying to push this narrative that there's NO COLLUSION (because 'collusion' is not a prosecutable crime). That doesn't mean these same actions weren't violations of campaign laws, which are crimes.

JLee

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FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3253 on: July 31, 2018, 08:13:18 AM »
The superrich need that tax cut. They are struggling. None of them can afford to ever retire. That's why they all keep working into their 70's & 80's.

GuitarStv

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talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3255 on: July 31, 2018, 08:38:40 AM »
I don't think the Koch bros. will back democrats unless those democrats take positions that would resemble business-friendly republican positions. That describes exactly zero democrats I know.

tralfamadorian

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3256 on: July 31, 2018, 08:46:59 AM »
The Koch's are now backing Democrats:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/29/koch-democrats-funding-747501

It sounds like the Koch brothers are starting to figure out that the Republican party has completed its metamorphosis from fiscal conservatism to social conservatism.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3257 on: July 31, 2018, 09:08:39 AM »
I don't think the Koch bros. will back democrats unless those democrats take positions that would resemble business-friendly republican positions. That describes exactly zero democrats I know.

https://amp.thisisinsider.com/trump-attack-globalist-koch-brothers-after-they-turn-on-him-back-democrats-2018-7

Quote
President Donald Trump on Tuesday launched an attack on the Koch brothers - powerful political megadonors with a long history of supporting Republican and libertarian causes - after the billionaires spoke out against the Trump White House.

Charles Koch, who remains in business at Koch Industries after his brother David took a step back in June over health issues, recently distanced himself from Trump's policies and bashed his economics.

"The urge to protect ourselves from change has doomed many countries throughout history," Koch said in a video shown to a gathering of donors in Colorado Springs, Colorado, according to The Wall Street Journal.

"This protectionist mind-set has destroyed countless businesses."

That was not the first time the Koch network had sought to use its political influence to push back against Trump.

The Kochs offered millions in campaign funding to Republicans who voted against a Trump-backed healthcare bill last year, and they spoke out against Trump's "zero tolerance" immigration policy in which families that entered the country illegally were separated at the border.

But recently, Charles Koch opened up to the possibility of funding Democratic candidates in their efforts to take both chambers of Congress in November.

With months to go before a crucial Senate election in North Dakota, the Koch network has not offered any funds to the Republican candidate.

In the clearest sign of an about-face at the libertarian-leaning Koch network, the billionaires funded a study that found that a Medicare-for-all plan by Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont would save the US $2 trillion over a decade. Sanders thanked the Koch network by name.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3258 on: July 31, 2018, 09:19:40 AM »
I don't think the Koch bros. will back democrats unless those democrats take positions that would resemble business-friendly republican positions. That describes exactly zero democrats I know.

There are a number of democrats who support free trade and oppose DJT's tariffs, and are running against GOP candidates who are full-throated Trump supporters.  The Koch bros. care about making money, and lately DJT's policies (based on some perceived slight) have made that much more difficult in many sectors.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3259 on: July 31, 2018, 10:13:26 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3260 on: July 31, 2018, 10:30:41 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3261 on: July 31, 2018, 10:35:33 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3262 on: July 31, 2018, 10:37:57 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:40:06 AM by JLee »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3263 on: July 31, 2018, 10:41:56 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

I mean, technically you're correct.  Nobody can stop anyone from doing anything that they want to.  If I want to drive my car into a bunch of pedestrians tomorrow I can.  That doesn't mean it's a good idea to legitimize automobile rampages, or to facilitate them by putting up signs showing the best place to run pedestrians down.  Since nobody can stop anyone from doing anything, I guess there's no point in having laws?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3264 on: July 31, 2018, 10:47:08 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.


Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

We're firmly in a world where access to firearms is not a significant barrier for anyone, even convicted criminals and the mentally unstable. The so-called '2nd amendment defenders' have successfully lobbied to curtail any national gun registry or universal background checks.  3D printed guns is just the next un-regulated source of firearms, albeit one that's tailor-made to defeat any governmental laws or surveillance.  That genie isn't going back in the bottle.
which means the only productive regulations at our disposal are when, where and how people can carry firearms. Some have decided that "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a [bigger] gun" - a belief predicated on the idea that armed deterrence will make us all safer.  I don't buy that argument, or the logic behind it.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3265 on: July 31, 2018, 10:48:32 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

I mean, technically you're correct.  Nobody can stop anyone from doing anything that they want to.  If I want to drive my car into a bunch of pedestrians tomorrow I can.  That doesn't mean it's a good idea to legitimize automobile rampages, or to facilitate them by putting up signs showing the best place to run pedestrians down.  Since nobody can stop anyone from doing anything, I guess there's no point in having laws?

Let's break out the logical fallacies once you're proven to have bad info!

Since you appear to have missed my edit, I'll point you back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3266 on: July 31, 2018, 10:57:49 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3267 on: July 31, 2018, 11:16:37 AM »
Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

It will be interesting to see what argument they put forth - generally prohibitions on certain items are justified as being 'too dangerous'.  Clearly the NRA would not support which labeled all firearms as inherently dangerous. Perhaps they will try for a more narrow definition - that 3D printed guns lack the 'careful manufacturing oversight' which allows for guns to be safe (ha!), but this would be a narrow needle to thread, and one that could invite more scrutiny on existing firearms manufacturers.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3268 on: July 31, 2018, 11:18:04 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

I mean, technically you're correct.  Nobody can stop anyone from doing anything that they want to.  If I want to drive my car into a bunch of pedestrians tomorrow I can.  That doesn't mean it's a good idea to legitimize automobile rampages, or to facilitate them by putting up signs showing the best place to run pedestrians down.  Since nobody can stop anyone from doing anything, I guess there's no point in having laws?

Let's break out the logical fallacies once you're proven to have bad info!

Since you appear to have missed my edit, I'll point you back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

I think you both are essentially correct. I mean the State Dept did in fact force the creator of the first 3-d printed gun to take down his plans. Of course they ended up on a file sharing website after that (gotta both love and hate technology). They seem to have not been downloaded much and there is no evidence they are the exact plans and that the printed gun indeed works. At least no evidence that I can find.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3269 on: July 31, 2018, 11:19:05 AM »
Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

Let's not forget that the NRA is a firearm manufacturer's lobby.  It's a trade group.  It has tried to spin itself as a defender of citizen liberties, but it was started by rifle manufacturers for the stated purpose of selling more rifles.

At first that was by setting up "safety" training and shooting competitions, to teach people how to use their product and then give them a sporting venue to do so, because sport shooters buy more than hunters or home defenders.  Over the years the NRA has consistently pursued policies that increase gun sales, above all other goals.  If they stay true to their corporate heritage, they will oppose free downloadable guns just like the record industry opposed free downloadable music.

More recently, the NRA has embraced partisan politics.  They only support republican politicians these days, even in cases where a democratic opponent is much more pro-gun, and they have been funding lots of republicans who support various forms of gun control.  Maybe it's because of all the Russian spies using the organization to sow discord in American politics, or maybe it's because they think maintaining republican majorities is better for their business than actually supporting pro-gun politicians.  If it's the former they might come out in support if 3d guns, but if it's the latter I suspect they will oppose it for the reasons stated above.

In that light, maybe the coming NRA declaration on 3d guns is sort of litmus test for how fully controlled by the Russians the NRA has become.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 11:35:53 AM by sol »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3270 on: July 31, 2018, 11:19:24 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

I don't think it will impact the gun industry at all - 3D printed guns are more of a novelty than anything. It is not as simple as just printing something up entirely out of plastic that is actually going to replace a legitimate firearm.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3271 on: July 31, 2018, 11:56:50 AM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

I don't think it will impact the gun industry at all - 3D printed guns are more of a novelty than anything. It is not as simple as just printing something up entirely out of plastic that is actually going to replace a legitimate firearm.

Perhaps not in the short term. But I wouldn't say that's true more long-term.

The fact that Trump is even starting to backtrack on this seems to be an indicator that the NRA doesn't want this to go forward. Can't imagine why else it would be a problem, other than the profit motive.

I agree with Sol -- given the infiltration of the NRA by Russia, this will be a pretty interesting thing to watch in the next few days/weeks.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3272 on: July 31, 2018, 12:30:33 PM »
Happy Trial Tuesday to Paul Manafort!


anisotropy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3274 on: July 31, 2018, 12:57:39 PM »
The new tax cut for capital gains might not be all it hyped up to be. Adjusting the cost basis for inflation might reduce the final tax bill by no more than 20% at most, most likely only a 10-15% reduction.

This might also serve as a way to "balance the budget" for 2018 and 2019 for cosmetic purposes, ie, it might encourage investors to realize the cap gain, much like how tech comps "brought back the cash".

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3275 on: July 31, 2018, 03:23:10 PM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

I don't think it will impact the gun industry at all - 3D printed guns are more of a novelty than anything. It is not as simple as just printing something up entirely out of plastic that is actually going to replace a legitimate firearm.

Perhaps not in the short term. But I wouldn't say that's true more long-term.

The fact that Trump is even starting to backtrack on this seems to be an indicator that the NRA doesn't want this to go forward. Can't imagine why else it would be a problem, other than the profit motive.

I agree with Sol -- given the infiltration of the NRA by Russia, this will be a pretty interesting thing to watch in the next few days/weeks.

3d printed guns still blow up regularly when you fire them, don't they?     Of course this will continue to improve, but I think the 3d printing process is going to be inferior to Glock manufacturing for a long time.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3276 on: July 31, 2018, 03:26:55 PM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

I don't think it will impact the gun industry at all - 3D printed guns are more of a novelty than anything. It is not as simple as just printing something up entirely out of plastic that is actually going to replace a legitimate firearm.

Perhaps not in the short term. But I wouldn't say that's true more long-term.

The fact that Trump is even starting to backtrack on this seems to be an indicator that the NRA doesn't want this to go forward. Can't imagine why else it would be a problem, other than the profit motive.

I agree with Sol -- given the infiltration of the NRA by Russia, this will be a pretty interesting thing to watch in the next few days/weeks.

3d printed guns still blow up regularly when you fire them, don't they?     Of course this will continue to improve, but I think the 3d printing process is going to be inferior to Glock manufacturing for a long time.

I'm guessing that's the case. I don't really have a dog in this fight. Like I said, I'm just looking at the behavior of Trump, and his sudden "consultation" with the NRA, and speculating as to why.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3277 on: July 31, 2018, 03:28:35 PM »
Trrump's policies also seem to be making it more difficult to stay alive, or to catch killers, as his administration has just opened the gates to 3D printing guns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45018513

Let's be fair -- nobody can stop that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean . . . except the US State Department.  Which has been stopping those plans from being distributed since 2013.  But nobody can stop them any more.

You're exceptionally naive if you think the US State Department can prevent someone from downloading anything if they want to.

Let's go back to 2015: https://3dprint.com/73842/download-3d-printed-gun/

Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.

I don't think it will impact the gun industry at all - 3D printed guns are more of a novelty than anything. It is not as simple as just printing something up entirely out of plastic that is actually going to replace a legitimate firearm.

Perhaps not in the short term. But I wouldn't say that's true more long-term.

The fact that Trump is even starting to backtrack on this seems to be an indicator that the NRA doesn't want this to go forward. Can't imagine why else it would be a problem, other than the profit motive.

I agree with Sol -- given the infiltration of the NRA by Russia, this will be a pretty interesting thing to watch in the next few days/weeks.

3d printed guns still blow up regularly when you fire them, don't they?     Of course this will continue to improve, but I think the 3d printing process is going to be inferior to Glock manufacturing for a long time.

Yep, and you generally still need a barrel.  These 3D printed AR15's you read about are simply the lower receiver.

Btw there is already a law that prohibits entirely 3D printed / plastic firearms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undetectable_Firearms_Act

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3278 on: July 31, 2018, 04:45:57 PM »
They are dreaming if they think they can stop 3D plans from being published both from a constitutional and practical standpoint.  Security theater at its finest.


MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3279 on: July 31, 2018, 05:11:46 PM »
Looks like roughly 40% of Republicans either approve or don't strongly reject Russian interference in our elections. Man, what has happened to the GOP?

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3280 on: July 31, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »

Man, what has happened to the GOP?

It abdicated all pretense of fiscal responsibility, family values, free trade, and defending America in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy and conservative judicial appointments.  They've traded respectability and decency for showmanship and demagoguery.

Personally I think it's a dying gasp masquerading as a power play.  The party knows it can't survive current demographic trends, so they've actively worked to suppress the vote and divide the nation in order to stay in power as long as possible.  They know their party won't survive the next decade, at least not in its current form,because basically nobody under the age of 30 likes anything they have to say.  Their full-throated embrace of divisive racial and class politics has basically ensured their own demise, but given them another election or two to leave one last black mark on our nation's history.

Maybe they'll be reborn?  They've done it before, after all.  The two political parties have basically traded places multiple times in the past (remember when republicans were the party of Lincoln and democrats were white southern slave holders?), so anything is possible.  But the current party platform is in its death throws, so in my mind the only question is what kind ideology they will embrace when they to reorganize.  And, I suppose, what kind of damage a 100% democratic government might do in retaliation for the Trump abomination.

And do note that I don't for one second believe that Trumpism is the next incarnation of the GOP.  Trumpism is the logical conclusion of Reaegan-era GOP policies, a steroid-fueled version of "morning in America" rather than an evolution or a reaction to it. 

If the democrats can't do it, I think the next incarnation of the GOP will champion universal healthcare and free education, in imitation of successful Scandinavian nations that have a higher per capita rate of millionaires and billionaires, and higher class mobility.  If they can rediscover their roots as libertarian "by the bootstraps" self-help promoters, they could bill the socialist model as a far more equitable meritocracy for hard-working Americans than the current system of inherited wealth, multigenerational systemic poverty, elitist ivory towers, and smoke-filled back rooms full of swamp creatures destined from birth to be rich and powerful.

Fireball

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3281 on: July 31, 2018, 10:31:23 PM »
Looks like roughly 40% of Republicans either approve or don't strongly reject Russian interference in our elections. Man, what has happened to the GOP?

Do you have a link for this, MasterStache? That pretty much matches up with what I hear in real life and all the conservative TV/radio shows.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3282 on: August 01, 2018, 06:30:12 AM »
Looks like roughly 40% of Republicans either approve or don't strongly reject Russian interference in our elections. Man, what has happened to the GOP?

Do you have a link for this, MasterStache? That pretty much matches up with what I hear in real life and all the conservative TV/radio shows.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/republicans-want-russia-influence-us-elections-202847050.html

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3283 on: August 01, 2018, 06:54:20 AM »

Man, what has happened to the GOP?

It abdicated all pretense of fiscal responsibility, family values, free trade, and defending America in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy and conservative judicial appointments.  They've traded respectability and decency for showmanship and demagoguery.

Personally I think it's a dying gasp masquerading as a power play.  The party knows it can't survive current demographic trends, so they've actively worked to suppress the vote and divide the nation in order to stay in power as long as possible.  They know their party won't survive the next decade, at least not in its current form,because basically nobody under the age of 30 likes anything they have to say.  Their full-throated embrace of divisive racial and class politics has basically ensured their own demise, but given them another election or two to leave one last black mark on our nation's history.


Sol- I think we agree that the Trump period involves selling a tax cut, conservative judges, and a dilution of the Affordable Care act to what were mainstream Republicans.

I think you have the dying gasp part wrong, though. Many Red states will continue to send two GOP senators to the senate for years. Many purple states will continue to Gerrymander themselves Red for years. I think Trump has shown Republicans what they can buy in exchange for accepting a defilement of law enforcement, ethical concerns, and rampant tribalism, and they like it.

And a lot of young people--those who practice Evangelical Christianity--think that progress in their direction on their pet issues is sufficient compensation for the stink of Trump. I'm not convinced Trump will lose in 2020. And if he wins then, there will be pressure to figure out how to have him win in 2024, too.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3284 on: August 01, 2018, 07:02:50 AM »
Looks like roughly 40% of Republicans either approve or don't strongly reject Russian interference in our elections. Man, what has happened to the GOP?

Do you have a link for this, MasterStache? That pretty much matches up with what I hear in real life and all the conservative TV/radio shows.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/republicans-want-russia-influence-us-elections-202847050.html

All I can say is, wow. Those people are traitors to their own country. If you can't win fairly, get out of the US.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3285 on: August 01, 2018, 07:07:01 AM »
Looks like roughly 40% of Republicans either approve or don't strongly reject Russian interference in our elections. Man, what has happened to the GOP?

Do you have a link for this, MasterStache? That pretty much matches up with what I hear in real life and all the conservative TV/radio shows.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/republicans-want-russia-influence-us-elections-202847050.html

All I can say is, wow. Those people are traitors to their own country. If you can't win fairly, get out of the US.

Why is this a surprise?  We had several Republican supporters a few pages back arguing that Donald Trump was committing treason by the common use of the word but not by the legal definition - and therefore his actions were OK.  :P

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3286 on: August 01, 2018, 07:07:47 AM »

Man, what has happened to the GOP?

It abdicated all pretense of fiscal responsibility, family values, free trade, and defending America in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy and conservative judicial appointments.  They've traded respectability and decency for showmanship and demagoguery.

Personally I think it's a dying gasp masquerading as a power play.  The party knows it can't survive current demographic trends, so they've actively worked to suppress the vote and divide the nation in order to stay in power as long as possible.  They know their party won't survive the next decade, at least not in its current form,because basically nobody under the age of 30 likes anything they have to say.  Their full-throated embrace of divisive racial and class politics has basically ensured their own demise, but given them another election or two to leave one last black mark on our nation's history.

Maybe they'll be reborn?  They've done it before, after all.  The two political parties have basically traded places multiple times in the past (remember when republicans were the party of Lincoln and democrats were white southern slave holders?), so anything is possible.  But the current party platform is in its death throws, so in my mind the only question is what kind ideology they will embrace when they to reorganize.  And, I suppose, what kind of damage a 100% democratic government might do in retaliation for the Trump abomination.

And do note that I don't for one second believe that Trumpism is the next incarnation of the GOP.  Trumpism is the logical conclusion of Reaegan-era GOP policies, a steroid-fueled version of "morning in America" rather than an evolution or a reaction to it. 

If the democrats can't do it, I think the next incarnation of the GOP will champion universal healthcare and free education, in imitation of successful Scandinavian nations that have a higher per capita rate of millionaires and billionaires, and higher class mobility.  If they can rediscover their roots as libertarian "by the bootstraps" self-help promoters, they could bill the socialist model as a far more equitable meritocracy for hard-working Americans than the current system of inherited wealth, multigenerational systemic poverty, elitist ivory towers, and smoke-filled back rooms full of swamp creatures destined from birth to be rich and powerful.

Good God, but I hope you're right.

But before any of that happens it seems we're skipping down the road to the Fourth Reich. http://thehill.com/regulation/administration/399482-sessions-announces-religious-liberty-task-force

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3287 on: August 01, 2018, 07:23:25 AM »
Sol- I think we agree that the Trump period involves selling a tax cut, conservative judges, and a dilution of the Affordable Care act to what were mainstream Republicans.

I think you have the dying gasp part wrong, though. Many Red states will continue to send two GOP senators to the senate for years. Many purple states will continue to Gerrymander themselves Red for years. I think Trump has shown Republicans what they can buy in exchange for accepting a defilement of law enforcement, ethical concerns, and rampant tribalism, and they like it.

And a lot of young people--those who practice Evangelical Christianity--think that progress in their direction on their pet issues is sufficient compensation for the stink of Trump. I'm not convinced Trump will lose in 2020. And if he wins then, there will be pressure to figure out how to have him win in 2024, too.

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture. Trump gives them what they like on these issues, and they just follow along with the rest because they really don't give two shits about tariffs or Russia.

Young rural white people are not much different in ideology than old rural white people. The only thing that may flip the tables on the GOP in the coming years is the continued growth of metropolitan areas in a few of their strongholds. It's already happened in Virginia, which is practically a blue state at this point. Atlanta is slowly turning Georgia purple, just as Charlotte, Asheville, and Raleigh-Durham are doing in North Carolina. Texas will be next in line, but that's decades from now. The rest of the southern states aren't going to change enough demographically to flip their electorates in the foreseeable future. And the GOP seems to be flourishing in the Midwest just as the South has begun heading the other direction.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3288 on: August 01, 2018, 07:27:34 AM »



Well, I think after "consulting the NRA," which Trump said he's doing today, he'll "stop" this in its tracks.

Because 3D printed guns mean less money for the gun industry. Can't have that.





Well, you forgot that the NRA doesn't need gun manufacturers' money anymore because they are backed by Trump's buddy Mr. Putin.  We all know Putin doesn't care where Americans get their guns, as long as we keep shooting each other.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3289 on: August 01, 2018, 07:28:25 AM »
The man has never bought groceries in his life.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3290 on: August 01, 2018, 07:29:43 AM »
Sol- I think we agree that the Trump period involves selling a tax cut, conservative judges, and a dilution of the Affordable Care act to what were mainstream Republicans.

I think you have the dying gasp part wrong, though. Many Red states will continue to send two GOP senators to the senate for years. Many purple states will continue to Gerrymander themselves Red for years. I think Trump has shown Republicans what they can buy in exchange for accepting a defilement of law enforcement, ethical concerns, and rampant tribalism, and they like it.

And a lot of young people--those who practice Evangelical Christianity--think that progress in their direction on their pet issues is sufficient compensation for the stink of Trump. I'm not convinced Trump will lose in 2020. And if he wins then, there will be pressure to figure out how to have him win in 2024, too.

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture. Trump gives them what they like on these issues, and they just follow along with the rest because they really don't give two shits about tariffs or Russia.

Young rural white people are not much different in ideology than old rural white people. The only thing that may flip the tables on the GOP in the coming years is the continued growth of metropolitan areas in a few of their strongholds. It's already happened in Virginia, which is practically a blue state at this point. Atlanta is slowly turning Georgia purple, just as Charlotte, Asheville, and Raleigh-Durham are doing in North Carolina. Texas will be next in line, but that's decades from now. The rest of the southern states aren't going to change enough demographically to flip their electorates in the foreseeable future. And the GOP seems to be flourishing in the Midwest just as the South has begun heading the other direction.

This is the part I wonder about.  None of these are directly economic issues, and nothing Trump is doing is going to do anything to improve the lives of the folks who are voting for him.  Will they remain content in the authoritarian future where they stay poor, sick, and uneducated? If the answer to that is Yes, is it good for the "rest" of the USA to stick together with them?  There is a numerical majority of people who would not choose that future.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3291 on: August 01, 2018, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote from: Mississippi Mudstache
I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture. Trump gives them what they like on these issues, and they just follow along with the rest because they really don't give two shits about tariffs or Russia.

Young rural white people are not much different in ideology than old rural white people. The only thing that may flip the tables on the GOP in the coming years is the continued growth of metropolitan areas in a few of their strongholds. It's already happened in Virginia, which is practically a blue state at this point. Atlanta is slowly turning Georgia purple, just as Charlotte, Asheville, and Raleigh-Durham are doing in North Carolina. Texas will be next in line, but that's decades from now. The rest of the southern states aren't going to change enough demographically to flip their electorates in the foreseeable future. And the GOP seems to be flourishing in the Midwest just as the South has begun heading the other direction.

This is the part I wonder about.  None of these are directly economic issues, and nothing Trump is doing is going to do anything to improve the lives of the folks who are voting for him.  Will they remain content in the authoritarian future where they stay poor, sick, and uneducated? If the answer to that is Yes, is it good for the "rest" of the USA to stick together with them?  There is a numerical majority of people who would not choose that future.

You're showing off your bias with that question. Yeah, there are plenty of "poor, sick, and uneducated" people in the South, but guess what? Lots of them vote for Democrats. Democratic votes tend to be concentrated in the lowest and highest echelons of wealth and education in the South. The Republicans win by absolutely dominating the middle class.

Let me pull a few examples from my home state of Georgia. If we look the top quintile of "most educated" counties, HRC won 11/32. If we look at the bottom quintile of "least educated" counties, HRC won 10/32 - nearly the same proportion. However, look at the middle three quintiles and the story is different: HRC claimed only 10/95.

Let's do the same analysis with median income. HRC claimed 8/32 in the top quintile. She won 11/32 in the bottom quintile, including every single one of the seven poorest counties. She only won 12/95 in the middle three quintiles. (source).

Why do things shake out this way? Simple. The poorest and least educated southerners are mostly blacks and other minorities. Middle-class whites are generally better off than minorities, and they want to remain better off. So they vote for candidates who will fight progress. The poorest whites tend not to affiliate with any party and don't really turn out to vote in big margins. The white middle class is the key, and they are not largely motivated by economic issues, because frankly they're doing fine (at least in comparison to the minorities that they live among). If you want to understand middle-class white southerners, then understand this: They are motivated by culturally conservative values, to the exclusion of all other issues.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3292 on: August 01, 2018, 08:09:09 AM »
Sol- I think we agree that the Trump period involves selling a tax cut, conservative judges, and a dilution of the Affordable Care act to what were mainstream Republicans.

I think you have the dying gasp part wrong, though. Many Red states will continue to send two GOP senators to the senate for years. Many purple states will continue to Gerrymander themselves Red for years. I think Trump has shown Republicans what they can buy in exchange for accepting a defilement of law enforcement, ethical concerns, and rampant tribalism, and they like it.

And a lot of young people--those who practice Evangelical Christianity--think that progress in their direction on their pet issues is sufficient compensation for the stink of Trump. I'm not convinced Trump will lose in 2020. And if he wins then, there will be pressure to figure out how to have him win in 2024, too.

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture. Trump gives them what they like on these issues, and they just follow along with the rest because they really don't give two shits about tariffs or Russia.

Young rural white people are not much different in ideology than old rural white people. The only thing that may flip the tables on the GOP in the coming years is the continued growth of metropolitan areas in a few of their strongholds. It's already happened in Virginia, which is practically a blue state at this point. Atlanta is slowly turning Georgia purple, just as Charlotte, Asheville, and Raleigh-Durham are doing in North Carolina. Texas will be next in line, but that's decades from now. The rest of the southern states aren't going to change enough demographically to flip their electorates in the foreseeable future. And the GOP seems to be flourishing in the Midwest just as the South has begun heading the other direction.

This is the part I wonder about.  None of these are directly economic issues, and nothing Trump is doing is going to do anything to improve the lives of the folks who are voting for him.  Will they remain content in the authoritarian future where they stay poor, sick, and uneducated? If the answer to that is Yes, is it good for the "rest" of the USA to stick together with them?  There is a numerical majority of people who would not choose that future.

If it makes the liberals cry, then sadly yes - they'll be happy as could be.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3293 on: August 01, 2018, 08:26:39 AM »
Quote from: Mississippi Mudstache
I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture. Trump gives them what they like on these issues, and they just follow along with the rest because they really don't give two shits about tariffs or Russia.

Young rural white people are not much different in ideology than old rural white people. The only thing that may flip the tables on the GOP in the coming years is the continued growth of metropolitan areas in a few of their strongholds. It's already happened in Virginia, which is practically a blue state at this point. Atlanta is slowly turning Georgia purple, just as Charlotte, Asheville, and Raleigh-Durham are doing in North Carolina. Texas will be next in line, but that's decades from now. The rest of the southern states aren't going to change enough demographically to flip their electorates in the foreseeable future. And the GOP seems to be flourishing in the Midwest just as the South has begun heading the other direction.

This is the part I wonder about.  None of these are directly economic issues, and nothing Trump is doing is going to do anything to improve the lives of the folks who are voting for him.  Will they remain content in the authoritarian future where they stay poor, sick, and uneducated? If the answer to that is Yes, is it good for the "rest" of the USA to stick together with them?  There is a numerical majority of people who would not choose that future.

You're showing off your bias with that question. Yeah, there are plenty of "poor, sick, and uneducated" people in the South, but guess what? Lots of them vote for Democrats. Democratic votes tend to be concentrated in the lowest and highest echelons of wealth and education in the South. The Republicans win by absolutely dominating the middle class.

Let me pull a few examples from my home state of Georgia. If we look the top quintile of "most educated" counties, HRC won 11/32. If we look at the bottom quintile of "least educated" counties, HRC won 10/32 - nearly the same proportion. However, look at the middle three quintiles and the story is different: HRC claimed only 10/95.

Let's do the same analysis with median income. HRC claimed 8/32 in the top quintile. She won 11/32 in the bottom quintile, including every single one of the seven poorest counties. She only won 12/95 in the middle three quintiles. (source).

Why do things shake out this way? Simple. The poorest and least educated southerners are mostly blacks and other minorities. Middle-class whites are generally better off than minorities, and they want to remain better off. So they vote for candidates who will fight progress. The poorest whites tend not to affiliate with any party and don't really turn out to vote in big margins. The white middle class is the key, and they are not largely motivated by economic issues, because frankly they're doing fine (at least in comparison to the minorities that they live among). If you want to understand middle-class white southerners, then understand this: They are motivated by culturally conservative values, to the exclusion of all other issues.

I apologize for any implicit bias there, I'm aware of these nuances but was oversimplifying.  My thought is about Trump/GOP voters, not folks likely to vote Democrat. 

To put it another way, if Mississippi wants to become prosperous, with a high standard of living for all, how long can they sustain the voting patterns that have gotten them where they are?  And if they don't, are we pursuing a losing strategy by including them in the Union?

This is on my mind as I overheard someone talking along the lines of, "if we keep the rural south poor we can outsource manufacturing there at wages as low as they are overseas, save money on transportation, and have our investments backed by the US financial system!"  To which the other person replied, "yeah but you'd need to get rid of OSHA, the EPA, and rest of it."

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3294 on: August 01, 2018, 08:32:41 AM »

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture.
[snip]

I agree this is probably the case (boradly speaking), but I'm trying very hard to understand how these can be the issues rural GOP voters care about. 
1) Guns - as in 'pry them from my cold dead fingers'.  The worry here seems to be the 'government' taking them away with future legislation, not that current legislation curtails their self-interpreted 2nd amendment right. It seems no promises by any Dem candidate or court protections are enough to sway opinion that Dems = no guns/limited guns.

2) abortion. I get that this is a moral issue for some, but it seems limited in scope given the fervor it creates from the anti-abortion crowd (something like 1.2% of reproductive women per year and a comparable percentage to # of live births).  That its an issue for so many older men just strikes me as odd, particularly since they often are simultaneously opposed to programs that prevent pregnancy and help support unplanned children.

3) Immigration.  I guess immigrants are (once again) the scapegoat of all our societal ills?  A casual look at the data shows them to be, on average, productive upstanding members of society.  The fear that we will somehow 'lose our culture' with immigrants nearby is equally bizarre to me - shifts in culture happen because people discover new foods, music and mannerisms they like and incoporate into their daily lives.  how would that be bad?  tl;dr - empanadas are fantastic!

4) PC Culture. I guess I don't understand why this would motivate people to vote - what exactly are they protesting against? They want to continue to use terms other people find offensive?  Personally I've never found PC culture to be very burdensome; it basically fits how I was raised - if someone says they don't like being called a certain name, stop calling them that. I also can't understand why people care so much about who poops where.

... all I'd a fifth to the list
5) Military (hero worship). It's become obligatory in many places and events to pledge fealty to the military.  The narrative has been subtly changed from "It's a great honor to serve one's country" to "we must honor those who serve". Meanwhile our annual military budget exceeds that of any other country, and is higher than the next 8 countries combined. The adage - 'when the only tool in your bag is a hammer every (international) problem starts resembling a nail" comes to mind.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3295 on: August 01, 2018, 08:52:38 AM »
I apologize for any implicit bias there, I'm aware of these nuances but was oversimplifying.  My thought is about Trump/GOP voters, not folks likely to vote Democrat. 

To put it another way, if Mississippi wants to become prosperous, with a high standard of living for all, how long can they sustain the voting patterns that have gotten them where they are?  And if they don't, are we pursuing a losing strategy by including them in the Union?

This is on my mind as I overheard someone talking along the lines of, "if we keep the rural south poor we can outsource manufacturing there at wages as low as they are overseas, save money on transportation, and have our investments backed by the US financial system!"  To which the other person replied, "yeah but you'd need to get rid of OSHA, the EPA, and rest of it."

As you might imagine from my screen name, I used to live in Mississippi, so this line really struck me: "if Mississippi wants to become prosperous"...

I don't think you have the slightest understanding of what the average Mississippian wants. They want nothing to change. They don't want a new subdivision to be built next door. They don't want a new traffic light because the intersection down the road from their house is becoming more crowded with cars from new residents. They don't want the EPA to dictate what kind of diesel engine they can use in their logging equipment or how much cow shit can run off of their land into the adjacent river. They don't want to integrate their schools. They don't want their tax money going to fund Medicaid for the poor black kids who live on the east side of the railroad tracks. They don't want to see two men holding hands while walking down the sidewalk in front of their house. They do not want change. Prosperity? No, that's not a motivating issue for them. They are middle class, and they are perfectly content to remain that way. Yes, I'm generalizing, but you've got to understand that these generalizations are far closer to reality than "If Mississippi wants to become prosperous"...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 08:56:20 AM by Mississippi Mudstache »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3296 on: August 01, 2018, 08:57:24 AM »

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture.
[snip]

I agree this is probably the case (boradly speaking), but I'm trying very hard to understand how these can be the issues rural GOP voters care about. 
1) Guns - as in 'pry them from my cold dead fingers'.  The worry here seems to be the 'government' taking them away with future legislation, not that current legislation curtails their self-interpreted 2nd amendment right. It seems no promises by any Dem candidate or court protections are enough to sway opinion that Dems = no guns/limited guns.

2) abortion. I get that this is a moral issue for some, but it seems limited in scope given the fervor it creates from the anti-abortion crowd (something like 1.2% of reproductive women per year and a comparable percentage to # of live births).  That its an issue for so many older men just strikes me as odd, particularly since they often are simultaneously opposed to programs that prevent pregnancy and help support unplanned children.

3) Immigration.  I guess immigrants are (once again) the scapegoat of all our societal ills?  A casual look at the data shows them to be, on average, productive upstanding members of society.  The fear that we will somehow 'lose our culture' with immigrants nearby is equally bizarre to me - shifts in culture happen because people discover new foods, music and mannerisms they like and incoporate into their daily lives.  how would that be bad?  tl;dr - empanadas are fantastic!

4) PC Culture. I guess I don't understand why this would motivate people to vote - what exactly are they protesting against? They want to continue to use terms other people find offensive?  Personally I've never found PC culture to be very burdensome; it basically fits how I was raised - if someone says they don't like being called a certain name, stop calling them that. I also can't understand why people care so much about who poops where.

... all I'd a fifth to the list
5) Military (hero worship). It's become obligatory in many places and events to pledge fealty to the military.  The narrative has been subtly changed from "It's a great honor to serve one's country" to "we must honor those who serve". Meanwhile our annual military budget exceeds that of any other country, and is higher than the next 8 countries combined. The adage - 'when the only tool in your bag is a hammer every (international) problem starts resembling a nail" comes to mind.

dude you are overthinking. Stop using your brain and start using your gut reaction to these topics instead. Press hot button - react! Rinse, repeat. Remember to NOT use your brain, higher reasoning skills or anything resembling evidence-based processes, because oh yeah Trump administration doesn't want grant proposals to even use term "evidence based".

So what if the Rich are literally screwing them? And laughing their way to the bank while bankrupting the US? As long as other people (poor, minorities, gay people, women seeking an abortion) get screwed worse.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3297 on: August 01, 2018, 08:59:03 AM »

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture.
[snip]

I agree this is probably the case (boradly speaking), but I'm trying very hard to understand how these can be the issues rural GOP voters care about. 
1) Guns - as in 'pry them from my cold dead fingers'.  The worry here seems to be the 'government' taking them away with future legislation, not that current legislation curtails their self-interpreted 2nd amendment right. It seems no promises by any Dem candidate or court protections are enough to sway opinion that Dems = no guns/limited guns.

2) abortion. I get that this is a moral issue for some, but it seems limited in scope given the fervor it creates from the anti-abortion crowd (something like 1.2% of reproductive women per year and a comparable percentage to # of live births).  That its an issue for so many older men just strikes me as odd, particularly since they often are simultaneously opposed to programs that prevent pregnancy and help support unplanned children.

3) Immigration.  I guess immigrants are (once again) the scapegoat of all our societal ills?  A casual look at the data shows them to be, on average, productive upstanding members of society.  The fear that we will somehow 'lose our culture' with immigrants nearby is equally bizarre to me - shifts in culture happen because people discover new foods, music and mannerisms they like and incoporate into their daily lives.  how would that be bad?  tl;dr - empanadas are fantastic!

4) PC Culture. I guess I don't understand why this would motivate people to vote - what exactly are they protesting against? They want to continue to use terms other people find offensive?  Personally I've never found PC culture to be very burdensome; it basically fits how I was raised - if someone says they don't like being called a certain name, stop calling them that. I also can't understand why people care so much about who poops where.

... all I'd a fifth to the list
5) Military (hero worship). It's become obligatory in many places and events to pledge fealty to the military.  The narrative has been subtly changed from "It's a great honor to serve one's country" to "we must honor those who serve". Meanwhile our annual military budget exceeds that of any other country, and is higher than the next 8 countries combined. The adage - 'when the only tool in your bag is a hammer every (international) problem starts resembling a nail" comes to mind.
PC Culture is such a one way street as well.  If you call out people as bigoted or racist, they fly off the handle.  You're just calling it what it is!
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/07/27/fox-segment-dismisses-racial-justice-protests-guest-claims-there-nothing-worse-being-called-racist/220819
Isn't this a double standard?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3298 on: August 01, 2018, 09:00:08 AM »

dude you are overthinking. Stop using your brain and start using your gut reaction to these topics instead. Press hot button - react! Rinse, repeat. Remember to NOT use your brain, higher reasoning skills or anything resembling evidence-based processes, because oh yeah Trump administration doesn't want grant proposals to even use term "evidence based".

...yeah, i have that problem a lot.  Occupational hazard I guess
:-P

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3299 on: August 01, 2018, 09:15:47 AM »

I agree with everything you just said. The GOP is not dying in the Red States. I've grown up and lived in the rural South my whole life. Young white people here just love him. There are only maybe four issues that most rural white people really care about: 1) Guns 2) Abortion 3) Immigration 4) PC Culture.
[snip]

I agree this is probably the case (broadly speaking), but I'm trying very hard to understand how these can be the issues rural GOP voters care about...

I'm not asking you or anyone to understand why. I'm just telling you what I hear non-stop from my conservative family members and on my Facebook feed. I'm a rural, middle-class southern white who was raised in a rural, middle-class southern community by a family of rural middle-class southern whites. These are my people, I still don't understand it.

Not gonna lie. My dad has a Master's degree, a pension with a cash value north of $3 million, and he retired as a high-ranking government official. If I had to rank his top political priorities, I'd put PC culture at the top of the goddamn list. Mind you, he wouldn't put it there, but that's my inference based on the crap that he complains about. You'd be surprised how many seemingly normal people are motivated by gay marriage, transgender bathrooms, the "Me Too" movement, and gender-neutral pronouns. Those are practically the only "political" issues that my Dad even talks about.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 09:23:08 AM by Mississippi Mudstache »