Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 404058 times)

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3050 on: July 19, 2018, 09:47:36 PM »
Who's going to be the "Relevant Post Police"? 

Radagast

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3051 on: July 19, 2018, 10:10:08 PM »
Who's going to be the "Relevant Post Police"?
Other places for example ban links or images for the first 100 posts to keep spam out. It seems like many new posters (not just now, there is a long track record) only show up in the politically charged off-topic threads. It seems like trolling to me. Why post in a forum oriented towards thoughtful living if your only objective is angry political venting? Isn't there a reddit or something for that?

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3052 on: July 19, 2018, 10:27:26 PM »
I understand the reasoning.  I'm only pointing out that judging each of the first 100 posts of new members would probably be impractical. 


Isn't there a tab provided to alert the mods about posts that are aggressive, offensive, or break the TOU of the forum?  A few infraction alerts about "bad posters" should be effective and probably sufficient.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3053 on: July 19, 2018, 10:41:32 PM »
Stop arguing with the fox cult members.  Itís a pointless waste of energy.

That's a generous interpretation.  Just as likely is that he's a paid Russian troll, rather than a homegrown American troll.  Remember, what the Russians want most is America divided from itself, and from it's allies.

Which is why Fox News plays so nicely into their hands.  Getting the extreme wings of the parties riled up is the whole point.  Discord!  Conflict!  A House divided!

Maybe he's a genuine homegrown American troll, who just happens to coincidentally be doing the Russians bidding?

That actually seems quite likely, given that every single one of that particular user's (currently 38) posts are in political threads in the Off Topic section.

golden1

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3054 on: July 20, 2018, 04:48:33 AM »
Quote
That's a generous interpretation.  Just as likely is that he's a paid Russian troll, rather than a homegrown American troll.  Remember, what the Russians want most is America divided from itself, and from it's allies.

Hmmm, could be, especially with the rote regurgitated right wing talking points.  Either way, pointless to argue.  I like the idea of a 100 count minimum in off topic.  Lots of other forums have similar guidelines.

However, I have seen a few of my real life friends become radicalized in the same way, so it is possible this person could just be an average American Fox News watching voter.  What always strikes me is the angry tone, considering that the right holds the majority of state governments, the presidency, both houses of congress, and now the Supreme Court.  The modern right has truly been very effective at stoking the fires of eternal victim hood.

As an aside, this his a real problem that a free society is going to have to grapple with, the fact that no one really knows who is who on the Internet.  I believe that one of the measures of the long term strength of a society is itís ability to withstand corruption, and as we can see, the US is becoming very weak in this regard, partly because we have this mode of communication that allows people to infiltrate cultures surreptitiously by trying to be one of the tribe, and causing disruption. 

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3055 on: July 20, 2018, 05:59:25 AM »
I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention.

Rationality is subjective. From my position actively supporting a racist, misogynistic, sexist, bigoted bully who has bragged of sexual assaulting women (which is an actual crime) and committed human rights abuses against people from "shithole countries" and who is actively working against the interest of the US, seems pretty fucking irrational. I mean this a guy who thinks our bodies run on batteries. He has a lot of respect for murderous dictators (Putin and "Rocket man"). I could go on. But let's not pretend this is "mostly" Trump. It's pretty damn easy to stand up and say "I can't support this asshole and what he stands for because it's not who I am." 

With his approvals ratings still as high as they are (granted they are pretty damn low still) that's a lot of people supporting all this nonsense.

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual? And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..." And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 

Quote
If you think calling people racist and bigoted because they want to enforce immigration laws is productive, go right ahead.
Wow nice straw-man. Feel free to pick out where I related race and bigotry with immigration laws.   
 
Quote
Not interested in this ad hominem crap.
Quote
Otherwise, go ahead and be a "libtard".

Apparently you are! Boy did I touch a nerve. 30+ post all on political forums. Nice trolling! Hell if I were you, I try to find a way to get on the Russian payroll. If you are going to do their dirty work might as get paid!!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 06:01:30 AM by MasterStache »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3056 on: July 20, 2018, 06:03:29 AM »
Stop arguing with the fox cult members.  Itís a pointless waste of energy.

That's a generous interpretation.  Just as likely is that he's a paid Russian troll, rather than a homegrown American troll.  Remember, what the Russians want most is America divided from itself, and from it's allies.

Which is why Fox News plays so nicely into their hands.  Getting the extreme wings of the parties riled up is the whole point.  Discord!  Conflict!  A House divided!

Maybe he's a genuine homegrown American troll, who just happens to coincidentally be doing the Russians bidding?
That's a problem I have too. I dropped by the Fox news comments sections to day, and I honestly have no way of telling if the comments are by Russian agents or mentally disturbed Americans.

On a similar note, I am for free exchange of ideas and all, but can we prevent new members from posting in the "Off Topic" or general political posts until they have at least 100 relevant posts on mustachian topics?

A good rule of thumb is don't EVER read the comments on any political article. 

cerat0n1a

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3057 on: July 20, 2018, 06:21:37 AM »
I guess California or the UK are the best places to hide.

Not sure about that. Russians have killed quite a few people in the UK in recent years.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3058 on: July 20, 2018, 07:46:02 AM »

Can you give some examples

No. This is a thread about The Trump Show, I don't want to derail it, so perhaps in another thread. That being said, the mods have publicly stated many times they follow the post modern interpretation of the Popper quote, with an emphasis on "civility" (subject to mods' personal preferences). I don't suffer fools well, especially when the data/studies support my unpopular conclusions. We both remember what happened the last time. ya?

This is their house and the mods make the rules, nothing wrong with that. Rules (and laws) are meant to keep/promote order, a well known secret (I recall you being a lawyer) but somehow not apparent to the general public.

I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention. Does anyone still remember what happened to Lindsay Shepherd? BS like that happens just as much on the left, or at least enough that Shepherd knew she had better record the meeting. Anyone remember/know about this guy? The list goes on and on.

We've simply looked another way because they are our natural allies against Trump, even though they spawned from the same seed. Keep it up, and we will never be rid of the likes of Trump.

Too much rhetoric? I am as much of a stable genius as the 45th, but at least I recognize I am close to 100% douche.

Now, let's return our focus on speculating about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

Edit: Attempt to get it back on track. Trump not thrilled about the rate hikes!

You've quoted me here but under GuitarStv's handle. I would imagine you're not talking to me as I've no clue what you're on about.

Regardless we can take this over to Why Progressives Elected Trump if you like.

ETA: oh, I see GuitarStv also requested examples. My mistake.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 11:43:13 AM by Dabnasty »

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3059 on: July 20, 2018, 08:07:47 AM »
I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention.

Rationality is subjective. From my position actively supporting a racist, misogynistic, sexist, bigoted bully who has bragged of sexual assaulting women (which is an actual crime) and committed human rights abuses against people from "shithole countries" and who is actively working against the interest of the US, seems pretty fucking irrational. I mean this a guy who thinks our bodies run on batteries. He has a lot of respect for murderous dictators (Putin and "Rocket man"). I could go on. But let's not pretend this is "mostly" Trump. It's pretty damn easy to stand up and say "I can't support this asshole and what he stands for because it's not who I am." 

With his approvals ratings still as high as they are (granted they are pretty damn low still) that's a lot of people supporting all this nonsense.

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual?
  He wouldn't.  That's the point. 

And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..."
  This is one of those times where I realize people really do live in different worlds.  First, yes, lots of people brag about consensual sex.  It's childish, but it happens up and down the age spectrum.  Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex.  I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).


  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms. 


GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3060 on: July 20, 2018, 08:37:12 AM »
Quote
Donald J. Trump: You know and ...

Unknown: She used to be great. Sheís still very beautiful.

Trump: I moved on her, actually. You know, she was down on Palm Beach. I moved on her, and I failed. Iíll admit it.

Unknown: Whoa.

Trump: I did try and fuck her. She was married.

Unknown: Thatís huge news.

Trump: No, no, Nancy. No, this was [unintelligible] ó and I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping.

She wanted to get some furniture. I said, ďIíll show you where they have some nice furniture.Ē I took her out furniture ó

I moved on her like a bitch. But I couldnít get there. And she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, sheís now got the big phony tits and everything. Sheís totally changed her look.

Billy Bush: Sheesh, your girlís hot as shit. In the purple.

Trump: Whoa! Whoa!

Bush: Yes! The Donald has scored. Whoa, my man!

[Crosstalk]

Trump: Look at you, you are a pussy.

[Crosstalk]

Trump: All right, you and I will walk out.

[Silence]

Trump: Maybe itís a different one.

Bush: It better not be the publicist. No, itís, itís her, itís ó

Trump: Yeah, thatís her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, Iím automatically attracted to beautiful ó I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab íem by the pussy. You can do anything.

Bush: Uh, yeah, those legs, all I can see is the legs.

Trump: Oh, it looks good.

Bush: Come on shorty.

Trump: Ooh, nice legs, huh?

Bush: Oof, get out of the way, honey. Oh, thatís good legs. Go ahead.


Trump goes from talking about how he was aggressively trying to fuck a married woman, to how he doesn't wait but immediately starts kissing attractive women.  Then he mentions that he can do anything.

While it's not clear that he's advocating sexual assault and rape, the language used is certainly a bit worrisome when you're thinking about consent and predatory actions.  This is particularly true when you consider some of Donald Trump's history.  Trump doesn't sound like he's too interested in consent when he was bragging about walking into the dressing room of 15 and 16 year old girls preparing for a beauty pageant for example:
Quote
Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that Iíll go backstage before a show, and everyone's getting dressed and ready and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it. You know, I'm inspecting, I want to make sure that everything is good.

You know, the dresses. ĎIs everyone okay?í You know, they're standing there with no clothes. ĎIs everybody okay?í And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that. But no, I've been very good.

And this is just sticking to Trumps own words, not even touching on the number of women who have claimed that Trump assaulted or raped them.


In that context, does it really seem unreasonable to be concerned?  Is that acceptable behaviour from a president?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:43:56 AM by GuitarStv »

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3061 on: July 20, 2018, 08:39:01 AM »
This is one of those times where I realize people really do live in different worlds. 

Well this part I can definitely agree with. 

I'm astounded to see anyone defending Trump's description of pussy grabbing.  Do you have a similarly convoluted explanation for kissing Putin's ass?  For mocking a disabled reporter?  For insulting gold star families?  I could go on.




Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3062 on: July 20, 2018, 08:56:59 AM »
I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention.

Rationality is subjective. From my position actively supporting a racist, misogynistic, sexist, bigoted bully who has bragged of sexual assaulting women (which is an actual crime) and committed human rights abuses against people from "shithole countries" and who is actively working against the interest of the US, seems pretty fucking irrational. I mean this a guy who thinks our bodies run on batteries. He has a lot of respect for murderous dictators (Putin and "Rocket man"). I could go on. But let's not pretend this is "mostly" Trump. It's pretty damn easy to stand up and say "I can't support this asshole and what he stands for because it's not who I am." 

With his approvals ratings still as high as they are (granted they are pretty damn low still) that's a lot of people supporting all this nonsense.

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual?
  He wouldn't.  That's the point. 

And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..."
  This is one of those times where I realize people really do live in different worlds.  First, yes, lots of people brag about consensual sex.  It's childish, but it happens up and down the age spectrum.  Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex.  I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).


  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms.

You're right, people do brag about consensual sex and that is "locker room talk". I think only a small portion of people do it but they think it's normal. Any time I've heard someone do it, they're in a group of guy's and everyone they're talking to is making a face like "why are you telling me this, this is super awkward" but the bragger is oblivious.

Even though I think MasterStache was wrong about this part, that in no way negates the other points made. Saying "I don't even wait" implies he's not waiting for consent. What else would he be waiting for? Why would he have said that if consent wasn't the missing word? Can you fill in that blank with anything else?

I don't even wait for _______.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3063 on: July 20, 2018, 09:01:24 AM »
Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex. I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).

Can you direct quote where I made any suggestion that bragging about nonconsensual sex is "more usual." If not I would expect some integrity although I won't hold my breath. 

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3064 on: July 20, 2018, 09:04:56 AM »
I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention.

Rationality is subjective. From my position actively supporting a racist, misogynistic, sexist, bigoted bully who has bragged of sexual assaulting women (which is an actual crime) and committed human rights abuses against people from "shithole countries" and who is actively working against the interest of the US, seems pretty fucking irrational. I mean this a guy who thinks our bodies run on batteries. He has a lot of respect for murderous dictators (Putin and "Rocket man"). I could go on. But let's not pretend this is "mostly" Trump. It's pretty damn easy to stand up and say "I can't support this asshole and what he stands for because it's not who I am." 

With his approvals ratings still as high as they are (granted they are pretty damn low still) that's a lot of people supporting all this nonsense.

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual?
  He wouldn't.  That's the point. 

And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..."
  This is one of those times where I realize people really do live in different worlds.  First, yes, lots of people brag about consensual sex.  It's childish, but it happens up and down the age spectrum.  Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex.  I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).


  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms.

You're right, people do brag about consensual sex and that is "locker room talk". I think only a small portion of people do it but they think it's normal. Any time I've heard someone do it, they're in a group of guy's and everyone they're talking to is making a face like "why are you telling me this, this is super awkward" but the bragger is oblivious.

Even though I think MasterStache was wrong about this part, that in no way negates the other points made. Saying "I don't even wait" implies he's not waiting for consent. What else would he be waiting for? Why would he have said that if consent wasn't the missing word? Can you fill in that blank with anything else?

I don't even wait for _______.

I meant people don't brag about consensual sex in the way Trump "allegedly" does. Not even close.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3065 on: July 20, 2018, 09:05:20 AM »
Trump invited Putin to DC, even surprising his DNI.

It seems as if he's walking a fine line between doing what Putin wants him to do and what the US (public, GOP, intelligence) wants him to do. It would explain the see-saw words and actions.

This can only help the Democrats in the fall. Trump knows it's polling badly, especially when the GOP Congress is coming out against him, but he's keeping it in the news. It can only be kompromat. Or extreme arrogance.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3066 on: July 20, 2018, 10:02:25 AM »
Trump invited Putin to DC, even surprising his DNI.

It seems as if he's walking a fine line between doing what Putin wants him to do and what the US (public, GOP, intelligence) wants him to do. It would explain the see-saw words and actions.

This can only help the Democrats in the fall. Trump knows it's polling badly, especially when the GOP Congress is coming out against him, but he's keeping it in the news. It can only be kompromat. Or extreme arrogance.

A very consistent pattern is that he continuously pushes the envelope of doing what is acceptable, but always in the direction of increased autonomy and power for the executive. Have we heard about the deal on security issues that he supposedly made with Putin yet? I wonder if that will be yet another surprise for the DNI.

For an example of how this playbook works, see Erdogan in Turkey. ugh.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3067 on: July 20, 2018, 10:24:43 AM »
Trump invited Putin to DC, even surprising his DNI.

It seems as if he's walking a fine line between doing what Putin wants him to do and what the US (public, GOP, intelligence) wants him to do. It would explain the see-saw words and actions.

This can only help the Democrats in the fall. Trump knows it's polling badly, especially when the GOP Congress is coming out against him, but he's keeping it in the news. It can only be kompromat. Or extreme arrogance.

A very consistent pattern is that he continuously pushes the envelope of doing what is acceptable, but always in the direction of increased autonomy and power for the executive. Have we heard about the deal on security issues that he supposedly made with Putin yet? I wonder if that will be yet another surprise for the DNI.

For an example of how this playbook works, see Erdogan in Turkey. ugh.

Agreed. The "we're considering sending Americans over for interrogation" was a test balloon.

How far can he push until someone (the GOP) actually does something real rather than pass another resolution? I have some hope -- even otherwise conservative conservatives are worried (see Hurd's op-ed in the NYT yesterday).





Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3069 on: July 20, 2018, 12:53:35 PM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3070 on: July 20, 2018, 01:08:53 PM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

GreenEggs

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3071 on: July 20, 2018, 01:19:22 PM »
It's so hard to find honest candidates these days! 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3072 on: July 20, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »
Trump invited Putin to DC, even surprising his DNI.

It seems as if he's walking a fine line between doing what Putin wants him to do and what the US (public, GOP, intelligence) wants him to do. It would explain the see-saw words and actions.

This can only help the Democrats in the fall. Trump knows it's polling badly, especially when the GOP Congress is coming out against him, but he's keeping it in the news. It can only be kompromat. Or extreme arrogance.

It'd be interesting to point out to right-wing folks how great it will be for "leftists" when a Democratic president gets elected, and has full authority to implement all the things they're afraid of, thanks to the precedents being set by Trump. 

Or do they plan to prevent future elections?
A very consistent pattern is that he continuously pushes the envelope of doing what is acceptable, but always in the direction of increased autonomy and power for the executive. Have we heard about the deal on security issues that he supposedly made with Putin yet? I wonder if that will be yet another surprise for the DNI.

For an example of how this playbook works, see Erdogan in Turkey. ugh.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3073 on: July 20, 2018, 01:51:52 PM »
Trump invited Putin to DC, even surprising his DNI.

It seems as if he's walking a fine line between doing what Putin wants him to do and what the US (public, GOP, intelligence) wants him to do. It would explain the see-saw words and actions.

This can only help the Democrats in the fall. Trump knows it's polling badly, especially when the GOP Congress is coming out against him, but he's keeping it in the news. It can only be kompromat. Or extreme arrogance.
A very consistent pattern is that he continuously pushes the envelope of doing what is acceptable, but always in the direction of increased autonomy and power for the executive. Have we heard about the deal on security issues that he supposedly made with Putin yet? I wonder if that will be yet another surprise for the DNI.

For an example of how this playbook works, see Erdogan in Turkey. ugh.

It'd be interesting to point out to right-wing folks how great it will be for "leftists" when a Democratic president gets elected, and has full authority to implement all the things they're afraid of, thanks to the precedents being set by Trump. 

Or do they plan to prevent future elections?

Given that Trump wants to be President for life, I would not be surprised if there was a plan to prevent future elections.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3074 on: July 20, 2018, 03:36:21 PM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

In every debate democrats should just bring this up with republicans who support trump and are "family values". Democrats need to just hammer away at all this shit instead of taking the "high road" and talking about policy. Fuck policy. Just say trump is a sleazeball all day long and point out all the shit he has done. That'll win the election.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3075 on: July 20, 2018, 03:41:09 PM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

In every debate democrats should just bring this up with republicans who support trump and are "family values". Democrats need to just hammer away at all this shit instead of taking the "high road" and talking about policy. Fuck policy. Just say trump is a sleazeball all day long and point out all the shit he has done. That'll win the election.
Except that, as shown a few posts back, much of his base will just ignore this as the left bashing their guy and ad hominem attacks. IMHO, the best solution would be for congress to impeach him for being a terrible presdient, and to be convicted for illegal things. It would be terrible for the country in the short term, but in the long term having trust in the judicial system and using democratic institutions to their highest goals will serve us best. Going into the gutter puts us on a losing track if that becomes a new norm. Loss of objective truth is death for democracy.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3076 on: July 20, 2018, 04:15:07 PM »
Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex. I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).

Can you direct quote where I made any suggestion that bragging about nonconsensual sex is "more usual." If not I would expect some integrity although I won't hold my breath.

Sure.  The exchange was here:

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual? And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..." ...

That seems to pretty clearly be stating that him bragging about it means it's less likely to be consensual.  Just intending to mean who brags about sex at all doesn't really make sense there, because we're already specifically dealing not only with somebody who obviously does brag about his sexual escapades, but the actual recording of him bragging.     

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3077 on: July 20, 2018, 04:22:59 PM »
  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms.

You're right, people do brag about consensual sex and that is "locker room talk". I think only a small portion of people do it but they think it's normal. Any time I've heard someone do it, they're in a group of guy's and everyone they're talking to is making a face like "why are you telling me this, this is super awkward" but the bragger is oblivious.

Even though I think MasterStache was wrong about this part, that in no way negates the other points made. Saying "I don't even wait" implies he's not waiting for consent. What else would he be waiting for? Why would he have said that if consent wasn't the missing word? Can you fill in that blank with anything else?

I don't even wait for _______.

In the context of kissing people, I would say it means not waiting to try to kiss but jumping right in.  I assume he's not just hanging out 3 inches from their face (althout this is trump, so who knows) so it's not an acutal physical assault, just a crude and creepy pass.  The comment about just grabbing them right by the ****** made afterwards I read in context to be a figure a speech, and not a claim that they actually walk up to women and grab their crotch with no warning (although again, it is trump, and considering he hangs out with porn stars and nude models, and judging by how corrupt hollywood is and the me too movement, maybe before twelve months ago, guys in that world did go around grabbing girl's crotches with no warnings). 

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3078 on: July 20, 2018, 05:06:23 PM »
  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms.

You're right, people do brag about consensual sex and that is "locker room talk". I think only a small portion of people do it but they think it's normal. Any time I've heard someone do it, they're in a group of guy's and everyone they're talking to is making a face like "why are you telling me this, this is super awkward" but the bragger is oblivious.

Even though I think MasterStache was wrong about this part, that in no way negates the other points made. Saying "I don't even wait" implies he's not waiting for consent. What else would he be waiting for? Why would he have said that if consent wasn't the missing word? Can you fill in that blank with anything else?

I don't even wait for _______.

In the context of kissing people, I would say it means not waiting to try to kiss but jumping right in.  I assume he's not just hanging out 3 inches from their face (althout this is trump, so who knows) so it's not an acutal physical assault, just a crude and creepy pass.  The comment about just grabbing them right by the ****** made afterwards I read in context to be a figure a speech, and not a claim that they actually walk up to women and grab their crotch with no warning (although again, it is trump, and considering he hangs out with porn stars and nude models, and judging by how corrupt hollywood is and the me too movement, maybe before twelve months ago, guys in that world did go around grabbing girl's crotches with no warnings).

Trump is possibly playing some mental gymnastics that could be used to trip him up here.  He called the Access Hollywood tape "locker room talk," which if you've been in a men's locker room you know any sexual braggadocio is implicitly false.  As in, it didn't happen, or at least didn't happen the way the braggart claims it did.  Trump has no love for the truth, but he'll double down on anything he's challenged on. 

"Mr. Trump, You called the Access Hollywood tape "locker room talk," which is essentially admitting it's a lie.  So you're saying didn't touch those women.  You didn't kiss them without consent.  You were just bragging about something you thought would make your cooler in Billy Bush's eyes.  You would never do something like what you described, you don't have the cajones."

Then watch him rush to admit he did it, they couldn't stop him, and he's done way worse.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3079 on: July 20, 2018, 06:04:10 PM »
Second, i feel horrible for the life you must have lived if you think it's more usual for people to brag about nonconsensual sex. I'm sure that happens, but for somebody to think that's more common than the alternative makes me think they have lived in an extremely abusive environment at worst or at best have been surrounded by terrible people their entire life (or maybe at best are disconnected from reality if that's better than being surrounded by terrible people).

Can you direct quote where I made any suggestion that bragging about nonconsensual sex is "more usual." If not I would expect some integrity although I won't hold my breath.

Sure.  The exchange was here:

Trump did not "brag about assaulting women" in the Access Hollywood tape.He said "they let you do it".  This is consensual "pu$$y grabbing". 
Wow way to quote mine. Actually he said "I don't even wait." Why would he need to wait if it's consensual? And who brags about consensual sex? Do you? "Yeah I was going to give it to so and so last night and as soon as he/she gave me the go ahead I went for it..." ...

That seems to pretty clearly be stating that him bragging about it means it's less likely to be consensual.  Just intending to mean who brags about sex at all doesn't really make sense there, because we're already specifically dealing not only with somebody who obviously does brag about his sexual escapades, but the actual recording of him bragging.   

So I clearly stated it or you implied it? And since you are using the "him" pronoun then you are clearly discussing Trump's version of bragging about "allegedly" consensual sex. And that's cool so was I as in my follow-up to Dabnasty. In which case since I don't view that as the norm for consensual sex bragging, you'll need to provide ample evidence that this is indeed the norm. I simply fail to see how not acknowledging that as the norm would stem from physical abuse. Which, apart form this discussion, strikes me as odd that physical abused popped into your head at all. Of course I don't know you, so perhaps it isn't so odd. I mean in the grand scheme of things you are attempting some pretty fucked up mental gymnastics to excuse a sexual abuser/predator. Purposefully walking in on naked teenagers of a beauty pageant is utterly disgusting and predatory behavior. Perhaps you can excuse that by claiming my dad was an abusive alcoholic (he actually wasn't, but seems to fit your logic)

But I am sure all things considered Trump just has an odd way of boasting about his "allegedly" consensual sexual encounters. If we can't see that then we must all have been abused ( : Good thing we aren't discussing Roy Moore. Your head might explode!

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3080 on: July 20, 2018, 06:14:08 PM »
  And who apologizes for consensual sex? And who claims consensual sex is simply "locker room talk?" Sorry but logic overrules your desire to defend sexual assault. 
  The "locker room talk" referred to his actual talk.  A big hint is that the word "talk" is in the phrase "locker room talk".  The people bragging about consensual sex, a stereotypical place that would happen would be a locker room.  Not sure it's really where that happens as opposed to say bars or dorm rooms, but it's a pretty common description reflecting the fact that men are often cruder in men's only settings, such as locker rooms.

You're right, people do brag about consensual sex and that is "locker room talk". I think only a small portion of people do it but they think it's normal. Any time I've heard someone do it, they're in a group of guy's and everyone they're talking to is making a face like "why are you telling me this, this is super awkward" but the bragger is oblivious.

Even though I think MasterStache was wrong about this part, that in no way negates the other points made. Saying "I don't even wait" implies he's not waiting for consent. What else would he be waiting for? Why would he have said that if consent wasn't the missing word? Can you fill in that blank with anything else?

I don't even wait for _______.

In the context of kissing people, I would say it means not waiting to try to kiss but jumping right in.  I assume he's not just hanging out 3 inches from their face (althout this is trump, so who knows) so it's not an acutal physical assault, just a crude and creepy pass.  The comment about just grabbing them right by the ****** made afterwards I read in context to be a figure a speech, and not a claim that they actually walk up to women and grab their crotch with no warning (although again, it is trump, and considering he hangs out with porn stars and nude models, and judging by how corrupt hollywood is and the me too movement, maybe before twelve months ago, guys in that world did go around grabbing girl's crotches with no warnings).

Unwanted touching of any nature is indeed sexual assault. Yes that includes kissing and groping both of which he admitted to. Doesn't matter how you want to spin it or excuse it. It's sick and so are the folks who try to defend it.

tralfamadorian

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3081 on: July 20, 2018, 06:26:58 PM »
The comment about just grabbing them right by the ****** made afterwards I read in context to be a figure a speech, and not a claim that they actually walk up to women and grab their crotch with no warning (although again, it is trump, and considering he hangs out with porn stars and nude models, and judging by how corrupt hollywood is and the me too movement, maybe before twelve months ago, guys in that world did go around grabbing girl's crotches with no warnings).

Spoken like a man who has no idea of the realities of being a women. Yes, women have their breasts groped, their asses pawed and their pussies grabbed by men who are strangers, acquaintances and people who they had previously considered friends. In bars, at work, on public transportation. And no, you don't first have to add the qualifier that they are part of groups that you consider less worthy of respect or autonomy of their own bodies.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3082 on: July 20, 2018, 09:17:51 PM »
A woman friend of mine commented that the reason women voted for a man who, not only everyone knew he was a groper, but he openly boasted of it, was... as a woman, virtually any male you vote for will be a groper. Because it's a male thing, and especially a rich and powerful male thing.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3083 on: July 20, 2018, 11:51:04 PM »
A woman friend of mine commented that the reason women voted for a man who, not only everyone knew he was a groper, but he openly boasted of it, was... as a woman, virtually any male you vote for will be a groper. Because it's a male thing, and especially a rich and powerful male thing.

Sorry Kyle Schuant, but this is why I think you are a troll.  Maybe a troll with a careful plan, but certainly pushing the agenda of something.  I have no idea what you stand for, what your motivations are on this thread, but you do a good job of repeatedly normalizing things that are mostly horrible to Americans.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3084 on: July 21, 2018, 02:58:38 AM »
I'm just quoting an American woman I know. Whether that reflects the experience of all women I don't know. To say that sexual assault is common is not to "normalise" it, far from it. It's to say that things need to change, and people like Trump are NOT how positive change will be achieved. Clinton would have been an utter disaster for the US, but at least she is unlikely to have ever sexually assaulted anyone. I don't envy the choice voters faced in 2016: malice or incompetence.

My motivation is to laugh at America. Because if we don't laugh, we have to cry.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3085 on: July 21, 2018, 04:15:09 AM »
A woman friend of mine commented that the reason women voted for a man who, not only everyone knew he was a groper, but he openly boasted of it, was... as a woman, virtually any male you vote for will be a groper. Because it's a male thing, and especially a rich and powerful male thing.

Sorry Kyle Schuant, but this is why I think you are a troll.  Maybe a troll with a careful plan, but certainly pushing the agenda of something.  I have no idea what you stand for, what your motivations are on this thread, but you do a good job of repeatedly normalizing things that are mostly horrible to Americans.

I'm curious-what is he normalizing...?! I've noticed his posts lately, they are pretty high quality. Perhaps the fact that every one of his posts is well thought out tips you off that something is up?  Reminds me of the time some theorized that MMM was actually a team of professional writers with an agenda lol.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3086 on: July 21, 2018, 06:27:42 AM »
A woman friend of mine commented that the reason women voted for a man who, not only everyone knew he was a groper, but he openly boasted of it, was... as a woman, virtually any male you vote for will be a groper. Because it's a male thing, and especially a rich and powerful male thing.

Sorry Kyle Schuant, but this is why I think you are a troll.  Maybe a troll with a careful plan, but certainly pushing the agenda of something.  I have no idea what you stand for, what your motivations are on this thread, but you do a good job of repeatedly normalizing things that are mostly horrible to Americans.

I'm curious-what is he normalizing...?! I've noticed his posts lately, they are pretty high quality. Perhaps the fact that every one of his posts is well thought out tips you off that something is up?  Reminds me of the time some theorized that MMM was actually a team of professional writers with an agenda lol.

I have to agree with Escape here. I don't think Kyle was attempting to normalize anything, but his/her friend was doing just that. Claiming that women voted for Trump because sexual assault is "just what rich and powerful men do" is an absolute attempt to normalize it.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3087 on: July 21, 2018, 07:24:10 AM »
I also agree, that the degree that Trump has normalized previously unacceptable behavior for president is astounding. I'm hoping that historically this will be an abberration rather than some kind of turning point for both the presidency and our country. As far as what was acceptable in the past, and boys will be boys, you have to remember that Warren G Harding's reputation for be considered the worst or one of the worse presidents, in addition to corruption in his administration and being considered a weak president, was that solid evidence of his affairs came to light. Previously there were rumors, but it was only when it was evidence it changed people's view.

Going forward, there seems to be sufficient evidence that Trump has violated Federal laws. The one with the most evidence is election laws, that foreign officials cannot give anything of value for elections. Trump publically solicited the Russians to hack into servers of who was a sitting sec of state (another crime) his team including his own son met with representatives to discuss this exchange. We know that a number of Hillary's emails were released in an attempt to sway the election. This is a serious crime. I would not be surprised if we uncovered more evidence of gifts from foreign officials, in particular for quid pro quo.

While Trump fulfills the spirit of the law of treason, if one interprets strictly that we have to be at war with the country, does not fulfill the letter of that law. However there is a related law called seditious conspiracy, that he can be tried under, that what we know as of this moment, he is guilty of.

The most straightforward way to get him impeached is simply to have him testify under oath, about, really almost anything. He has lied about so many things, that are so much more important than consensual sex with an intern. Off the top of my head whether he knew about the meeting about Hillary's emails, why won't he release his tax returns or what is in his tax returns, what kinds of discussions happened when he visited Russia in 2013, or even what was discussed with Putin at his most recent private meeting? If we had a non-corrupt congress, this would have already happened.  None of these things can be considered trivial, or personal matters. Rather they strike at the very heart of us having a functioning, real democracy.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:26:35 AM by partgypsy »

megaschnauzer

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3088 on: July 21, 2018, 08:49:24 AM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

In every debate democrats should just bring this up with republicans who support trump and are "family values". Democrats need to just hammer away at all this shit instead of taking the "high road" and talking about policy. Fuck policy. Just say trump is a sleazeball all day long and point out all the shit he has done. That'll win the election.

why can't they do both? call him a sleazeball and talk about policy?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3089 on: July 21, 2018, 09:45:55 AM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

In every debate democrats should just bring this up with republicans who support trump and are "family values". Democrats need to just hammer away at all this shit instead of taking the "high road" and talking about policy. Fuck policy. Just say trump is a sleazeball all day long and point out all the shit he has done. That'll win the election.

why can't they do both? call him a sleazeball and talk about policy?

They can... but the media will only report the sleazeball stuff.

And honestly, at this point people who still support Trump canít be reached. Having the left call him a sleazeball is a badge of honor as far as theyíre concerned. So, the end result would backfire.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3090 on: July 21, 2018, 11:09:08 AM »
Lordy, there are tapes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-secret-recording-seized-by-fbi-trump-and-cohen-discuss-making-payments-for-story-of-former-model-who-alleged-affair-with-trump/2018/07/20/767476a8-8c34-11e8-85ae-511bc1146b0b_story.html

... and yet his base will not care. A significant portion of the base will appreciate the perceived virility of him bedding a playmate. There was tape of his conference with Putin, and many don't care. There was tape of Access Hollywood and of him talking about his daughter for that matter. There have been so many things that should have made people stop to say that he was a liar and otherwise morally questionable. However, people seem to just double down when they see "their guy" being attacked.

That's exactly right. For many on the right, Trump can do no wrong. And for many on the left, Hillary could do no right.

In every debate democrats should just bring this up with republicans who support trump and are "family values". Democrats need to just hammer away at all this shit instead of taking the "high road" and talking about policy. Fuck policy. Just say trump is a sleazeball all day long and point out all the shit he has done. That'll win the election.

why can't they do both? call him a sleazeball and talk about policy?

They can... but the media will only report the sleazeball stuff.

And honestly, at this point people who still support Trump canít be reached. Having the left call him a sleazeball is a badge of honor as far as theyíre concerned. So, the end result would backfire.

Yeah, I don't think you win by converting Trump supporters (those that were going to get converted probably already have), at this point you need to make enough noise with people that weren't going to vote to get out there. And the sleazeball/news grabbing headlines is how to do it - not policy crap.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3091 on: July 21, 2018, 05:38:02 PM »
The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3092 on: July 21, 2018, 09:37:19 PM »
The tariffs might be a good place to start as they bleed more jobs away. If jobs were the issue, how patient will people be when theirís is killed by the guy they supported?

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3093 on: July 21, 2018, 09:48:21 PM »
@craimund why are you here? All 38 of your posts on politics, largely trying to defend the indefensible.

Do you have anything on reducing the costs of commuting or groceries, or maybe the benefits of riding a bike?

The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

I am as left as they come but even I am thinking of holding my nose and voting right in the next Australian election. The left has completely lost the plot on identity politics / political correctness. The sooner they stop trying to legislate common sense the better.

It's maddening for a progressive like me. Reasonable agendas that are palatable to a majority seem to simply get hijacked by the lunar left (or right as the case may be) over and over again.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3094 on: July 22, 2018, 03:18:22 AM »
@craimund why are you here? All 38 of your posts on politics, largely trying to defend the indefensible.

Do you have anything on reducing the costs of commuting or groceries, or maybe the benefits of riding a bike?

The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

I am as left as they come but even I am thinking of holding my nose and voting right in the next Australian election. The left has completely lost the plot on identity politics / political correctness. The sooner they stop trying to legislate common sense the better.

It's maddening for a progressive like me. Reasonable agendas that are palatable to a majority seem to simply get hijacked by the lunar left (or right as the case may be) over and over again.


Also remember that the Russians spent a lot of time and trouble to demonise Hillary Clinton.   And even knowing that, there is still a lot of "Clinton was an awful candidate" around.  You know, she wasn't a bad candidate.  She had demonstrated competence as Secretary of State and was running pretty middle of the road policies.    People justifying the vote for Trump by saying how bad Clinton was are falling into exactly the same Russian trap as the people justifying the vote for Trump.


I don't know what's going on in Australia.   But the Brexit vote is looking suspicious these days.  I'm not sure I'd say any election is certain to be free of outside interference at this stage.  And not only are there apparently no good ways to stop it, I think in many ways it may already be too late.  Which is not to say we shouldn't be fighting it all the way.

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3095 on: July 22, 2018, 04:52:00 AM »
@craimund why are you here? All 38 of your posts on politics, largely trying to defend the indefensible.

Do you have anything on reducing the costs of commuting or groceries, or maybe the benefits of riding a bike?

The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

I am as left as they come but even I am thinking of holding my nose and voting right in the next Australian election. The left has completely lost the plot on identity politics / political correctness. The sooner they stop trying to legislate common sense the better.

It's maddening for a progressive like me. Reasonable agendas that are palatable to a majority seem to simply get hijacked by the lunar left (or right as the case may be) over and over again.


Also remember that the Russians spent a lot of time and trouble to demonise Hillary Clinton.   And even knowing that, there is still a lot of "Clinton was an awful candidate" around.  You know, she wasn't a bad candidate.  She had demonstrated competence as Secretary of State and was running pretty middle of the road policies.    People justifying the vote for Trump by saying how bad Clinton was are falling into exactly the same Russian trap as the people justifying the vote for Trump.


I don't know what's going on in Australia.   But the Brexit vote is looking suspicious these days.  I'm not sure I'd say any election is certain to be free of outside interference at this stage.  And not only are there apparently no good ways to stop it, I think in many ways it may already be too late.  Which is not to say we shouldn't be fighting it all the way.

Yes, the people who regurgitate talking points are largely beyond help. Even if you do shut down the nefarious interference it will still take time to dissolve.

I can perfectly make up my mind by myself without reference to any media influence, simply by actually looking at policies and how they affect me and others. We still have a reasonably inquisitive press here that is not hyper-partisan... though it is inching towards hyper-partisanship a little more each year (some would disagree and say we are already there, but I don't believe that the entire press corp is there).

I wouldn't know the candidates personalities from a bar of soap, given they've been media trained to suppress everything about their personalities. I do understand policy, and that matters to me.

I suppose social media doesn't have the same influence on politics here as it does over there. Thank god for that. So far as I can tell Russia isn't taking out TV and radio ads.


MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3096 on: July 22, 2018, 05:26:30 AM »
The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

Of course you are. Because you are getting sucked into the same bullshit hyperbole Trump pushed during the election. And at the end of 4 years when manufacturing and coal jobs still haven't come back what then? Are you going to believe the next Republican bullshitter and the next and the next?

Clinton reached out to these folks with more realistic plans going forward. Lower education cost, re-training programs for rural areas. She didn't feed them lines of bullshit about bringing jobs back. Those jobs have been disappearing for decades. It's not a Dem vs Repub thing. It's called progress.

I do agree that that Trump did appeal to these folks. And going forward I would hope the Dems might follow suite. As much as it pains me to say, they should lie as well just to get their votes. Hell why not, I mean if facts really don't matter? I'm certainly not confident it will work. I think the politicians on the right right have these folks so convinced the left is just a bunch of open border, ship your job overseas, take away all your guns, baby killing atheist that they will vote R no matter what. I mean I did watch a special before the election where some rural Kentucky folks being interviewed admitted they would likely lose healthcare (they had healthcare thanks to the ACA) if they voted for Trump but were going to anyways. How do you appeal to folks who knowingly vote against their own self interest because of a letter in front of someone's name?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 06:26:37 AM by MasterStache »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3097 on: July 22, 2018, 06:50:29 AM »
Identity and interest are different things. Until middle class liberal Americans get over this "why are you so stupid to vote for him?" stuff and actually talk to some working class Americans - the salaried talking to the waged and unemployed - Trump and his like will keep winning elections.


"When we believe our rhetoric and use coddled, middle-class experience as our reference point, we lose sight of practical objectives, and ignore obvious risks as well as genuine social accomplishments.

"Perhaps the most dangerous aspect of a middle-class life is the extent to which it shields its beneficiaries from fundamental, brutal realities. Most lower class people of all ethnicities quickly learn that universal justice doesnít exist, and probably never will, yet unbridled fantasies of fairness are continually thrust upon them from above."

and

"Trump might be increasing economic inequality, but at least the working-class whites feel like they belong in Trumpís America."



https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/31/trump-white-working-class-history-216200
https://meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defence-of-the-bad-white-working-class/

The best lie is the one people want to believe; the lie that you can Make America Great Again, or the even bigger lie that America Is Still Great We Just Need To Shuffle The Deckchairs A Bit. Until you actually speak to poor people and understand why they believe what they do (hint, no, it's not because they're evil or stupid), you're going to keep getting more of the same.

However, it is in the nature of elites to destroy themselves. Let them eat cake! she said with a laugh, and soon was under the guillotine. I am hopeful for you, but not optimistic.

golden1

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3098 on: July 22, 2018, 07:58:06 AM »
I talk to a lot of those ďworking classĒ Americans everyday at work.  A lot of them love Trump, not because they think that he is going to bring prosperity, but literally because ďhe owns the libs.Ē  They honestly donít care that he does anything tangible for them, because the ďfeelĒ better since they believe the president is attacking the other team on a daily basis.  Itís pure negative partisanship.

Talking to these people made me realize that trying to argue with them is pointless.  I have tried.  You are bringing facts to an emotion fight.  These people donít really believe their lives will get better, so they might as well burn the whole thing down.  Trump has a certain genius, probably related to his obvious malignant narcissism, of exploiting the negative emotions of people for his own benefit.  His family and the other plutocrats are all going to be wealthy for generations due to the graft that is going down right now.

The only chance we have of reducing his influence is by increasing independent turn out, which is honestly a long shot. 

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #3099 on: July 22, 2018, 08:46:05 AM »
The Trump voters in the once blue rust belt states aren't hard core Trumpsters. They were reached out to. While the Ds focused on the big metros, Rs took to the rural areas. Someone did the math and figured out the need and how to appeal to these voters. You guys saying his base doesn't care don't realize Trump is on very tenuous ground come 2020. By demonizing the base, you bring more of his base to the voting booth. Trump says a lot of things, but to a ton of these voters he cares about them. Not illegals. Not bathrooms. Not SJW issue. Trump appealed to mainstream issues. Jobs. Taxes. That's it. If I'm a former factory worker who's job got yanked away and was a blue union guy who thinks illegals and China took my job and Democrats wanna raise my taxes-guess what- I'm voting Trump. If Democrats start pushing mainstream issues, they too can win. Healthcare, poverty, jobs. Push that. Get the rest on the way after victory. Yes the bathroom thing is important, but guys who are living in worse conditions than 10 years ago don't really give a crap about that issue.

@Johnez - I agree that a lot of non-traditional voters supported DJT because they felt they had been ignored in the campaign and that many felt the previous administration(s) were sacrificing their prosperity in an effort to support other endevours (e.g. cleaner energy, solar, increased global trade, etc)

Where I disagree is the idea that there's a huge wall to overcome if DJT is to be defeated in 2020. Remember, he won by the most narrowest of margins in 2016, and his win had as much to do with the lack of participation from people who had voted for Obama as it did from newfound support from traditional rust-belt democrats. He also was running against a candidate who carried more political baggage (justifiably or not) than any recent candidate. Given DJT's disapproval ratings and under-water support levels (both worse for DJT than they were during the 2016 campaign) he'd lose in a generic election if held today.

So what does this mean?  Anything that leads to greater voter turnout is likely to be a net negative for DJT. Whether that's equal opportunity protection or discussion about sustainable economic security, I don't know. In this modern world of targeted voter data a successful campaign needs to push whatever button will result in turnout. For most of America, the jobless rate is low and worries about social issues is growing. I live in a state where the local unemployment is at 3.0% - talk of more jobs is largely meaningless as there's an acute labor shortage, but talk of job training and anti-discrimination and social programs get more traction.