Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 33891 times)

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #300 on: September 18, 2017, 09:34:40 AM »
Now, in this world, because Donald Trump panders to the alt-right, no one likes them. It is well-understood that the only way someone can agree with the alt-right is if they are racist or ignorant of what the alt-right is. Also, people are starting to notice the violent sects in Antifa. Part of this I credit to Trump. When he threatens Berkeley's funding for letting Antifa have a heckler's veto. When he mentions correctly that some of the counter-protesters in Charlottesville were violent. It raises visibility on the issue.

Now, let's imagine an alternate world, one where Clinton had won. I'd posit that both the Alt-Right and violent groups on the left like BAHM and Antifa wouldn't be facing the scrutiny they are now under. Let's start right. Perhaps Robert Spencer and white nationalists wouldn't have been so brazen in their hatred; ergo less people would have disassociated from them. Let's go left. We know due to recent evidence that the Obaha Administration (not Barrack in particular) was already turning a blind eye to the "alt-left". I'd doubt a President Clinton would have threatened Berkley or condemned their violence (an interview got released a few hours ago with Clinton. Some headlines implies she rejects the notion that antifa is violent but I haven't read the transcript or watched the interview.)


What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.  And, by the way, even the hand-waving raising awareness argument is BS.  Though there's more attention on the issue, the end result of that attention is that hate crimes against minorities are sharply up.


sequoia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #301 on: September 18, 2017, 07:58:15 PM »
I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

+1.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #302 on: September 18, 2017, 08:29:59 PM »
"Still no charity money from leftover Trump inaugural funds":

https://apnews.com/0756ba7480444895b4fabc9a2f0909b3

You mean he promised to donate $$$ and then didn't??? I am SHOCKED, I tell you.

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Location: Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #303 on: September 19, 2017, 04:09:15 AM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1473
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #304 on: September 19, 2017, 06:51:44 AM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Ah, so you are glad we aren't living in Nazi Germany, during slavery, etc.  This is the kind of 'progress' that takes America back a century if it goes on long enough.  And with a full 4 (or heaven forbid 8) years of Trump, I fear that America could very well slip backwards as we become desensitized to just how shocking and outrageous this President acts and how pervasive his message has become.

I read a snippet of speculative fiction about a dystopian future full of Trump real estate and products and businesses...  With a family as large and now publicly entrenched as the Trumps, it might not end up being that unrealistic.   
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

Dabnasty

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #305 on: September 19, 2017, 09:04:45 AM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.
Have you considered how much groups like Antifa have grown since Trump won the election? Or that they primarily exist as a counter protest to white supremacists?

These groups are not equivalent. Not in terms of size, not in terms of violence, and definitely not in terms of motive. The last time we had this discussion the thread was shut down because it is an embarrassment to the forum when someone suggests otherwise.

Mind you, I acknowledge that their methods are misled because A) they are against free speech B) they use violence and C) they are only giving people on the right a reason to lean further right. You say their views are largely left uncriticized but I see lots of criticism of Antifa coming from both sides.

One last thing, here are some statistics on the number of people killed by extremists - By their nature cases of murder are outliers and typically I prefer to keep statistical outliers out of these conversations but the difference is enough that I think this is relevant.
Quote
Over the past 10 years (2007-2016), domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the United States. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing extremists.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/murder-and-extremism-in-the-united-states-in-2016


« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 09:15:02 AM by Dabnasty »

infogoon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #306 on: September 21, 2017, 08:13:15 AM »
This is yet another example of Trump's political incompetence and lack of message discipline causing self-inflicted damage.

I think the best description I've seen of the President is "someone who watched an episode of ER trying to perform surgery". He has absolutely no idea what he's doing, nor does he understand his role in the government. He thinks it's like his former life as the CEO of a family business, where everyone is required to do what he tells them and then he just hangs back and waits for things to show up on his desk for signature.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #307 on: September 21, 2017, 09:44:43 AM »
infogoon I agree. I've been enjoying the "signing" memes. It's a way to poke in a kind manner, the emperor has no clothes.

https://twitter.com/TrumpDraws

« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:50:10 AM by partgypsy »

sequoia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #308 on: September 21, 2017, 09:50:44 AM »
This is yet another example of Trump's political incompetence and lack of message discipline causing self-inflicted damage.

I think the best description I've seen of the President is "someone who watched an episode of ER trying to perform surgery". He has absolutely no idea what he's doing, nor does he understand his role in the government. He thinks it's like his former life as the CEO of a family business, where everyone is required to do what he tells them and then he just hangs back and waits for things to show up on his desk for signature.

+1.

It amazes me to watch his speech at the UN, such as calling a crazy North Korean leader a Rocket Man among other things that he said. This is not third grade anymore. Calling anyone names gets you nothing, and yet he does not seems to understand this. NK is not going to just give up their nukes just because US president say something on twitter...

For a guy who is so self conscious of his own image (size of my hands, size of the crowd in my rallies, in my inauguration, blah blah), I am surprised he does not see it that the entire world is laughing at what he does.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:54:32 AM by sequoia »

paddedhat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2048
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #309 on: September 21, 2017, 01:26:54 PM »

For a guy who is so self conscious of his own image (size of my hands, size of the crowd in my rallies, in my inauguration, blah blah), I am surprised he does not see it that the entire world is laughing at what he does.

When you suffer from the mental illness of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you do not "see" much of anything other than what is needed to fuel your ego in the moment. He is surrounded by a whole cult of personality, who bites and slash at each other for the chance to be first in line to lather his ass. He walks away from the podium in cases like this, only to be showered with adulation by his minions. The opinion of the "entire world" isn't important if Fox and Friends congratulates him on his brilliant speech, and his lap dogs tell him how great he is.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1199
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #310 on: September 21, 2017, 04:14:52 PM »

For a guy who is so self conscious of his own image (size of my hands, size of the crowd in my rallies, in my inauguration, blah blah), I am surprised he does not see it that the entire world is laughing at what he does.

When you suffer from the mental illness of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you do not "see" much of anything other than what is needed to fuel your ego in the moment. He is surrounded by a whole cult of personality, who bites and slash at each other for the chance to be first in line to lather his ass. He walks away from the podium in cases like this, only to be showered with adulation by his minions. The opinion of the "entire world" isn't important if Fox and Friends congratulates him on his brilliant speech, and his lap dogs tell him how great he is.

Yup. 

I have a close relationship with someone with NPD and it is GLARINGLY obvious that Trump has it. I mean, narcissism is a normal personality trait and it occurs on a spectrum, which is only considered disordered at the far ends of the spectrum. And most politicians and a lot of leaders score fairly high on the scale (presumably it is a trait that helps you have confidence to shrug off the criticism that comes with those positions). But the actual personality disorder is FAR more intense...in that case, the sufferer isn't really even dealing with realty.  They can't deal with any criticism, can't be wrong, are hypervigilant to perceived disrespect and slights, overreact to such, etc.  The NPD case I know deals with such situations by immediately rewriting reality in their head as they live it, so that it conforms to their ego needs.   And then, they proceed onward convinced of their version of events, until the next time they need to rewrite it. 

Trump lies constantly in blatant and obvious ways, with no attempt to rectify discrepancies with reality or his own previous statements.  It seems obvious that if people keep pointing out his lies, eventually he will stop doing it.  But he CAN'T stop doing it.  NPD sufferers really believe what they are saying in the moment nearly all of the time; they HAVE to, or the cognitive dissonance between their own inflated view of their awesome versus cold reality would send them into a breakdown.  Sometimes it DOES send them into a breakdown.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #311 on: September 21, 2017, 06:56:49 PM »

For a guy who is so self conscious of his own image (size of my hands, size of the crowd in my rallies, in my inauguration, blah blah), I am surprised he does not see it that the entire world is laughing at what he does.

When you suffer from the mental illness of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you do not "see" much of anything other than what is needed to fuel your ego in the moment. He is surrounded by a whole cult of personality, who bites and slash at each other for the chance to be first in line to lather his ass. He walks away from the podium in cases like this, only to be showered with adulation by his minions. The opinion of the "entire world" isn't important if Fox and Friends congratulates him on his brilliant speech, and his lap dogs tell him how great he is.

Yup. 

I have a close relationship with someone with NPD and it is GLARINGLY obvious that Trump has it. I mean, narcissism is a normal personality trait and it occurs on a spectrum, which is only considered disordered at the far ends of the spectrum. And most politicians and a lot of leaders score fairly high on the scale (presumably it is a trait that helps you have confidence to shrug off the criticism that comes with those positions). But the actual personality disorder is FAR more intense...in that case, the sufferer isn't really even dealing with realty.  They can't deal with any criticism, can't be wrong, are hypervigilant to perceived disrespect and slights, overreact to such, etc.  The NPD case I know deals with such situations by immediately rewriting reality in their head as they live it, so that it conforms to their ego needs.   And then, they proceed onward convinced of their version of events, until the next time they need to rewrite it. 

Trump lies constantly in blatant and obvious ways, with no attempt to rectify discrepancies with reality or his own previous statements.  It seems obvious that if people keep pointing out his lies, eventually he will stop doing it.  But he CAN'T stop doing it.  NPD sufferers really believe what they are saying in the moment nearly all of the time; they HAVE to, or the cognitive dissonance between their own inflated view of their awesome versus cold reality would send them into a breakdown.  Sometimes it DOES send them into a breakdown.

Truth. My first husband had NPD -- not nearly as bad or as blatant as Trump, but definitely not in the "normal" range of narcissism. He once tried to choke me because I said something he couldn't re-write fast enough. In the middle of the freeway. While he was driving. I'm lucky I wasn't killed, either by him cutting off my air supply, or by the resulting crash.

I made a (crazy, stupid) last-ditch attempt at marriage counseling after that. He told the therapist he wasn't sorry, because I drove him to it. And come to find out after the session, he actually rewrote the scene in his head so that the therapist agreed with him.

One difference, of course, is that Trump is rich, and has had a lifetime of people basically helping him to rewrite all the stories/scenes to make him feel like a big man. But you can sure as hell see the crazy come out whenever he gets too close to the edge of a narrative he doesn't like before turning his back on it and going back into his comfortable cocoon.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 10:47:43 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2523
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #312 on: September 22, 2017, 04:55:48 AM »
Trump has now started swapping twitter insults with Kim Jong In.

For fuck's sake, what good outcome does he think that's going to get?

And why the fuck can't the grown ups take the phone from his tiny little fingers, flush it down a White House toilet and sit on him until he fucking grows up?

Chances of getting to the end of 4 years without a nuclear winter not looking good at the moment.

Please, Mr Mueller, move as fast as you can.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #313 on: September 22, 2017, 05:51:58 AM »
Rocketman launched a weaponized old english insult scoring a direct hit for perfect usage!

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #314 on: September 22, 2017, 06:05:19 AM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Are you talking about a hypothetical President Hillary Clinton who doesn't go far enough, in your opinion, to condemn groups like Antifa, or a hypothetical world in which President Donald Trump has the full-throated support of the Republican party? If the former, that's still a false equivalence between groups that promote violence based on demographic factors and groups that oppose the first, sometimes violently.

Look, I'm generally against violence, regardless of the reason. Violently engaging white supremacists (or other oppressive groups) is proven to be counter-productive. It's also not the same as violent white supremacy.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

DarkandStormy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #315 on: September 22, 2017, 08:21:13 AM »
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/21/tom-price-private-charter-plane-flights-242989

Remember when Trump railed against Obama for excess personal spending in his administration?

"Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price has taken at least 24 flights on private charter planes at taxpayers’ expense since early May, according to people with knowledge of his travel plans and a review of HHS documents."
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 40k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

Sibley

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2064
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #316 on: September 22, 2017, 08:51:01 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #317 on: September 22, 2017, 09:02:12 AM »
I will hand it to Kim. Dotard is likely to be an effective insult against Trump. In part because he will not know the word and be doubly incensed that Ivanka has to kindly, gently explain it to him.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9086
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #318 on: September 22, 2017, 09:19:37 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

The US being the aggressor is the norm though historically, isn't it?

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #319 on: September 22, 2017, 09:29:28 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

The US being the aggressor is the norm though historically, isn't it?

I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to have a norm. We were very clearly reluctant to enter WWI and WWII. Since then, we've done more than our fair share of aggression.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9086
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #320 on: September 22, 2017, 09:34:38 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

The US being the aggressor is the norm though historically, isn't it?

I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to have a norm. We were very clearly reluctant to enter WWI and WWII. Since then, we've done more than our fair share of aggression.

What kind of sample size do you want?  My understanding is that the only time the US has gone without war for five years was during the Great Depression.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #321 on: September 22, 2017, 09:51:23 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

The US being the aggressor is the norm though historically, isn't it?

I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to have a norm. We were very clearly reluctant to enter WWI and WWII. Since then, we've done more than our fair share of aggression.

And also when we invaded Mexico, took Mexico City, and then "bought" the northern half of their country. I guess that could be considered a strongarm negotiation. Pretty ruthless suppression of indigenous peoples....

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #322 on: September 22, 2017, 10:07:24 AM »
What kind of sample size do you want?  My understanding is that the only time the US has gone without war for five years was during the Great Depression.

One war is only one war, regardless of duration. To me, it's sort of analogous to Presidential elections; they happen regularly, but it's still a small sample size statistically speaking, and they aren't easily comparable with one another.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #323 on: September 22, 2017, 10:31:43 AM »
Well, based on all the insults that Trump and North Korea have been trading lately, the US is going to drop a nuke on North Korea, then China and/or Russia are going to retaliate against the US. North Korea's been saber rattling for decades, it's Trump escalating things. Which makes the US the aggressor.  Of course, then the US will retaliate against China/Russia, leaving the US, China/Russia, and North Korea smoking pits.

I would advise our allies to stay out of that fight and emerge to be the dominate world power.

The US being the aggressor is the norm though historically, isn't it?

I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to have a norm. We were very clearly reluctant to enter WWI and WWII. Since then, we've done more than our fair share of aggression.

And also when we invaded Mexico, took Mexico City, and then "bought" the northern half of their country. I guess that could be considered a strongarm negotiation. Pretty ruthless suppression of indigenous peoples....

Mexican-American war is probably the most obvious case of blatant American aggression. There was a legitimate border dispute, but the President was pushing to escalate it into full-blown war. Hell even General Grant said the only reason we were militarizing the dispute was to provoke the Mexicans into attacking us.

Any nation continually involved in conflict, like the US, is not an angel. It's not like you see Sweden and Switzerland getting involved in disputes elsewhere every year. Taking Trump's tweets as acts of aggression re: NK is stepping over a different line, IMO. NK has committed multiple acts of war against us and our allies over the past several decades, any of which would entitle us to blow the crap out of them.

Poundwise

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #324 on: September 22, 2017, 10:46:24 AM »

And also when we invaded Mexico, took Mexico City, and then "bought" the northern half of their country. I guess that could be considered a strongarm negotiation. Pretty ruthless suppression of indigenous peoples....

Mexican-American war is probably the most obvious case of blatant American aggression. There was a legitimate border dispute, but the President was pushing to escalate it into full-blown war. Hell even General Grant said the only reason we were militarizing the dispute was to provoke the Mexicans into attacking us.


I'm just wandering blithely into the end of this discussion, but has anybody brought up the consideration that a lot of the horrible Mexicans and Guatemalans, etc. are often descended from indigenous peoples of the Americas? What is the natural right of the U.S. to forbid their crossing and recrossing of the borders? Though of course "might makes right". I mean, who are really the immigrants?

Just Joe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 832
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #325 on: September 22, 2017, 12:30:08 PM »
I haven't even read the whole thread but I promise I will - it dawned on me yesterday how the Trump presidency will likely play out:

Nothing will happen.

He MIGHT be forced to resign. As in behind closed doors it is revealed to him that the investigators have something very damning on him that could lead to criminal charges but for the good of the nation, the good of the political parties, and for the good of the Trump family name - it would be better for him to go home gracefully. Sort of a Nixon exit.

The reason I believe this is that George W. Bush and his team invaded a sovereign country under false premises that created a situation where half a million Iraqis were killed, a government (albeit an unfriendly one) was toppled, an economy was damaged, and all this gave rise to a terrorist situation (ISIS/ISIL) that led to problems for surrounding countries, gave rise to a level of hatred and distrust of our government that will take some time to dissipate, perhaps generations.

Yes Saddam Hussein was a bad, bad man but I haven't read anything that connects him or his people to the 9/11 attacks. He probably did need removal but by other means than an invasion. Same as Kim Jong-un. do it right and avoid the power vacuum that leads to compounding political and social problems or don't do it at all. The war deaths could be argued to be many times worse than the human rights abuses these dictators are accused of.

Nobody went to jail from the Bush group and to me that's amazing.

My amateur opinion that it was all about establishing a military and political (and corporate) foothold in the Middle East not subject to the Saudi or Israeli governments. Break the government, install a new one that is permissive and friendly to the American regional goals but then it got to be very messy with ISIS/ISIL. Unexpected outcomes and challenges. And all that oil is a bonus.

I'm sure that the ability to lean on (pressure) Iran is a motivator too.

This is no different than what has gone on for 100 years. Places all around the globe where our government has setup shop and put down the opposition. Sometimes they label it as a fight against terrorism, or a fight against communism or some other -ism.

Had the Russians done the same in Iraq in the 2000s would be hell to pay according to the very same American leadership that invaded Iraq.

Funny how upset DC got about Russia taking some of Ukraine's territory. And how DC did nothing about it either.

So, I don't expect anything to happen to Trump except perhaps a smack on the wrist and perhaps an asterisk next to his name in the history books. What he has done has great political value - its a tool that can be used against political rivals within DC - but nothing will happen.

Lets hope the rest of us fair as well b/c frankly the contest of egos between Trump and the fellow in North Korea worries me a fair amount. Both of them are unpredictable and neither of them care much about anyone but themselves.

I have a son that would benefit from an enlistment in the Navy like I did years ago. Right now I'm counseling against it b/c the future is too uncertain and it would destroy me knowing that he was hurt in a pointless military action as we have repeatedly seen in the past 50 years.

Just Joe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 832
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #326 on: September 22, 2017, 12:44:08 PM »
I forgot to add - I think the federal bureaucracy would protect us from Trump launching missiles on a whim in much the same way they supposedly protected us from Nixon.

However nothing protects us from Kim Jong-un's whims and Trump's mouth.

Trump could very well run his mouth until North Korea did something impulsive that our government might be motivated to violently respond to.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #327 on: September 22, 2017, 01:04:44 PM »
I forgot to add - I think the federal bureaucracy would protect us from Trump launching missiles on a whim in much the same way they supposedly protected us from Nixon.


There isn't really any bureaucracy between POTUS and a launch order. I think Mattis is obligated to say "yes, this order really came from the President," and that's about it.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2523
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #328 on: September 22, 2017, 01:27:22 PM »
I forgot to add - I think the federal bureaucracy would protect us from Trump launching missiles on a whim in much the same way they supposedly protected us from Nixon.


There isn't really any bureaucracy between POTUS and a launch order. I think Mattis is obligated to say "yes, this order really came from the President," and that's about it.
Yes, unless Mattis says "I don't recognise you as President" and then has Trump hauled off to the funny farm in a straight jacket the planet and everyone on it is fucked.

The difference between Bush's disastrous, illegal, murderous war in Iraq and Trump is that Bush was acting in a public capacity.  The activities which could get Trump indicted or impeached are all about his private benefit and so will have fewer people lining up to support them.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #329 on: September 22, 2017, 01:37:44 PM »

And also when we invaded Mexico, took Mexico City, and then "bought" the northern half of their country. I guess that could be considered a strongarm negotiation. Pretty ruthless suppression of indigenous peoples....

Mexican-American war is probably the most obvious case of blatant American aggression. There was a legitimate border dispute, but the President was pushing to escalate it into full-blown war. Hell even General Grant said the only reason we were militarizing the dispute was to provoke the Mexicans into attacking us.


I'm just wandering blithely into the end of this discussion, but has anybody brought up the consideration that a lot of the horrible Mexicans and Guatemalans, etc. are often descended from indigenous peoples of the Americas? What is the natural right of the U.S. to forbid their crossing and recrossing of the borders? Though of course "might makes right". I mean, who are really the immigrants?

Depends on where you think rights come from...in current international relations, each nation has a government which has sovereignty over its chunk of land, and can do whatever it wants within its own borders. The people in Mexico and Guatemala aren't allowed in because the US government says they aren't, and the US government has sovereignty over the US territory.

The groups in Mexico and Guatemala aren't the same groups that were in the US in any case. There was a unique domestic Amerindian culture in the US from the 700s onward, so by the time the Europeans arrive in force, there's been almost 1,000 years of effective separation. There's some cultural exchange, but they are distinct civilizations.


Joe,
I don't see any reason to doubt the stated objective and method of operation in Iraq. Dubya is an idealist who thinks that civilizations are naturally democratic and have nothing more than a thin veneer of tyranny over said societies. Remove dictator, provide some support, get democracy.

This has been an American idea for a century, since Wilson's 14 points. I'd argue it's a total delusion and does not consider the considerable ethnic strife that exists in most nations, or religious strife, or other strife, none of which people necessarily want to solve democratically.

I wouldn't say that nothing will happen on Korea. But large-scale war is the exception, not the rule, so it's always better to bet on "no war" than "war." If we're considering personalities, I think Trump is too chicken to  start a fight.

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Location: Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #330 on: September 22, 2017, 07:40:09 PM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Are you talking about a hypothetical President Hillary Clinton who doesn't go far enough, in your opinion, to condemn groups like Antifa, or a hypothetical world in which President Donald Trump has the full-throated support of the Republican party? If the former, that's still a false equivalence between groups that promote violence based on demographic factors and groups that oppose the first, sometimes violently.

Look, I'm generally against violence, regardless of the reason. Violently engaging white supremacists (or other oppressive groups) is proven to be counter-productive. It's also not the same as violent white supremacy.

Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9086
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #331 on: September 23, 2017, 01:00:17 PM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Are you talking about a hypothetical President Hillary Clinton who doesn't go far enough, in your opinion, to condemn groups like Antifa, or a hypothetical world in which President Donald Trump has the full-throated support of the Republican party? If the former, that's still a false equivalence between groups that promote violence based on demographic factors and groups that oppose the first, sometimes violently.

Look, I'm generally against violence, regardless of the reason. Violently engaging white supremacists (or other oppressive groups) is proven to be counter-productive. It's also not the same as violent white supremacy.

Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).

What are these rallies being crashed about?

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Location: Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #332 on: September 23, 2017, 01:16:21 PM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Are you talking about a hypothetical President Hillary Clinton who doesn't go far enough, in your opinion, to condemn groups like Antifa, or a hypothetical world in which President Donald Trump has the full-throated support of the Republican party? If the former, that's still a false equivalence between groups that promote violence based on demographic factors and groups that oppose the first, sometimes violently.

Look, I'm generally against violence, regardless of the reason. Violently engaging white supremacists (or other oppressive groups) is proven to be counter-productive. It's also not the same as violent white supremacy.

Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).

What are these rallies being crashed about?

All manners of things. In just the last month, the first example that comes to mind was the Boston Free Speech Rally by the Alt-lite (a group that intentionally split from the Alt-Right and denounces it for its white nationalists stances). The G20 riots the month before would be an example of them being violent against a non-violent groups.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9086
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #333 on: September 23, 2017, 01:32:32 PM »
Alt-lite is the branch of the alt-right that believes overt racism is bad, while still pushing racist, sexist, and xenophobic ideology, correct?  Brietbart news is commonly described as alt-lite.  I can certainly see why this would be reason for clashes between Antifa and this group. . . not simply because the alt-lite isn't them.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9086
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #334 on: September 23, 2017, 01:39:33 PM »
A quick search of news regarding the g20 violence seems to indicate that there were several extreme protesting groups and it's not clear if Antifa was the source of the violence.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1066
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #335 on: September 23, 2017, 03:10:49 PM »
Meanwhile Supremacists rallied for their right to implement racial superiority in America, sporting Swastikas and carrying torches and Trump's response was 'there were fine people' on that side, and that 'both sides' were wrong. Meanwhile, when black athletes exercise their own First Amendment right in response to known police brutality issues in parts of this country, he calls them 'sons of bitches'.


Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #336 on: September 23, 2017, 08:27:19 PM »
Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).



I appreciate your crusade to somehow make Antifa JUST AS BAD as white supremacists.  When you are trying to whitewash (no pun intended) some pretty slimy people like neo-nazis, it's really the only possible play to distract from their stances.  Like, I think trashing a Starbucks sucks, but I think wanting to put people in gas chambers because they are Jewish is several orders of magnitude worse.  But that's just me.  Now, you can point to the prettier members of the alt-lite who are ostensibly into free speech, just like I can point to the prettier members of Antifa who protected clergy from the violence of white supremacists.  However, on a crime-for-crime basis, white supremacists are ahead by a long shot.  And, on shittiness of ideology, white supremacists are also winning.

But even if you were to convince anyone that Antifa=neo-nazis, your argument is going to fall short because there isn't any evidence that Hillary  is aligned with them to any level approaching Trump's coziness with white supremacists. It's not clear that Antifa members voted for Hillary, campaigned for Hillary, or supported Hillary in any significant way. Antifa protests aren't hotbeds of I'mWithHer tshirts.  Compare and contrast with Charlottesville, where a bunch of white supremacists wore Trump tshirts, talked about how they loved Trump, etc.  Stormfront message boards are love fests for Trump. 

From the other side, Hillary hasn't praised Antifa, said some of them are fine people, etc.  None of her advisers are cozy with Antifa.  But-hey-look over there! Why, it's Stephen Miller.  Old friend and roommate of nazi dirtbag Richard Spencer.  So, a senior Trump adviser is tight with a nazi.  Trump himself plays footsie with them.

SO, once again, this isn't the better timeline.  If Hillary were president, she wouldn't be chuckling about "Antifa will be antifa!" from her pizza sex dungeon.  We have a president who panders to white supremacists.  That sucks.  You can't WHATABOUTHILLARY!! that away.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #337 on: September 23, 2017, 09:32:15 PM »
What did I just read?  Did Trump-justifying mental contortions just rip a hole in the space-time continuum and now someone is actually arguing that it's a GOOD thing that the president, with the power and responsibility of the office, panders to white supremacists because it draws negative attention to them? 

I'd rather the president not be a white supremacist panderer.  Full stop.

I think you are slightly misreading my intent. I am not saying it is good to have a president that panders to hate groups. I am saying it is better to have a disliked president that panders to hate groups and gets flak for it than a president that panders to hate groups that has those views left largely uncriticized.

Are you talking about a hypothetical President Hillary Clinton who doesn't go far enough, in your opinion, to condemn groups like Antifa, or a hypothetical world in which President Donald Trump has the full-throated support of the Republican party? If the former, that's still a false equivalence between groups that promote violence based on demographic factors and groups that oppose the first, sometimes violently.

Look, I'm generally against violence, regardless of the reason. Violently engaging white supremacists (or other oppressive groups) is proven to be counter-productive. It's also not the same as violent white supremacy.

Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).
The fact that you describe Ben Shapiro as "center right" makes me distrust anything you say as being accurate. 

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Location: Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #338 on: September 24, 2017, 06:02:55 AM »
Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).



I appreciate your crusade to somehow make Antifa JUST AS BAD as white supremacists.  When you are trying to whitewash (no pun intended) some pretty slimy people like neo-nazis, it's really the only possible play to distract from their stances.  Like, I think trashing a Starbucks sucks, but I think wanting to put people in gas chambers because they are Jewish is several orders of magnitude worse.  But that's just me.  Now, you can point to the prettier members of the alt-lite who are ostensibly into free speech, just like I can point to the prettier members of Antifa who protected clergy from the violence of white supremacists.  However, on a crime-for-crime basis, white supremacists are ahead by a long shot.  And, on shittiness of ideology, white supremacists are also winning.

But even if you were to convince anyone that Antifa=neo-nazis, your argument is going to fall short because there isn't any evidence that Hillary  is aligned with them to any level approaching Trump's coziness with white supremacists. It's not clear that Antifa members voted for Hillary, campaigned for Hillary, or supported Hillary in any significant way. Antifa protests aren't hotbeds of I'mWithHer tshirts.  Compare and contrast with Charlottesville, where a bunch of white supremacists wore Trump tshirts, talked about how they loved Trump, etc.  Stormfront message boards are love fests for Trump. 

From the other side, Hillary hasn't praised Antifa, said some of them are fine people, etc.  None of her advisers are cozy with Antifa.  But-hey-look over there! Why, it's Stephen Miller.  Old friend and roommate of nazi dirtbag Richard Spencer.  So, a senior Trump adviser is tight with a nazi.  Trump himself plays footsie with them.

SO, once again, this isn't the better timeline.  If Hillary were president, she wouldn't be chuckling about "Antifa will be antifa!" from her pizza sex dungeon.  We have a president who panders to white supremacists.  That sucks.  You can't WHATABOUTHILLARY!! that away.

I doubt Ben Shapiro or the other Jews that antifa of BAMN protests, violently, want to put Jews in gas chambers. Heck, even the white identitaries don't want that. I doubt the alt-lite, who expecitly left the alt-right because they disagreed with the racism in the alt-right, wants to gas some Jews.

This will be my last post in this thread. The fact I could point out that Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew, gets protested and that gets ignored (and instead the rebuttal is that Antifa only protests people who want to gas Jews), shows this is not a productive conservation worth my time.

DarkandStormy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #339 on: September 24, 2017, 02:45:41 PM »
Meanwhile Supremacists rallied for their right to implement racial superiority in America, sporting Swastikas and carrying torches and Trump's response was 'there were fine people' on that side, and that 'both sides' were wrong. Meanwhile, when black athletes exercise their own First Amendment right in response to known police brutality issues in parts of this country, he calls them 'sons of bitches'.

Dotard has spent more time and energy criticizing black athletes than white supremacists and Russian meddling. Guy is a joke.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 40k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

Jim Fiction

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #340 on: September 24, 2017, 03:45:03 PM »

I doubt Ben Shapiro or the other Jews that antifa of BAMN protests, violently, want to put Jews in gas chambers. Heck, even the white identitaries don't want that. I doubt the alt-lite, who expecitly left the alt-right because they disagreed with the racism in the alt-right, wants to gas some Jews.

This will be my last post in this thread. The fact I could point out that Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew, gets protested and that gets ignored (and instead the rebuttal is that Antifa only protests people who want to gas Jews), shows this is not a productive conservation worth my time.

Shapiro gets protested because of his politics, not because he is Jewish. I suspect you know this, but are just trying to stir the pot.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #341 on: September 24, 2017, 08:22:26 PM »
You are the only person trying to prop up a strawman argument "antifa only protests people who want to gas Jews". Antifa stands for anti fascists. That includes white supremacists, but also includes movements that are anti democratic and pro-elitist. You are the only one bringing up Shapiro's religious affiiliation (or who he's married to) which is irrelevant to the reason he is being protested. Just because there are people even to the right of him or even more of *ssholes  (white supremacists) doesn't mean his political beliefs are mainstream. But u probably already know that.

DarkandStormy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #342 on: September 25, 2017, 07:50:47 AM »
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/823174199036542980?lang=en

Quote
Peaceful protests are a hallmark of our democracy. Even if I don't always agree, I recognize the rights of people to express their views.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 40k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

A Definite Beta Guy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #343 on: September 25, 2017, 08:04:57 AM »
Antifa does not oppose "groups that promote violence based on demographic factors". They oppose, violently, any group that isn't them.

Just last week, because of Antifa Berkeley had to spend 600K on security to protect an event with Ben Shapiro. A centre-right Orthodox Jew who's married to someone who isn't white. Someone who left Breitbart for its alt-right connections and routinely denounces the alt-right. In fact, Antifa has a strange habit of protesting, violently, Jews.

Antifa will routinely crash free speech rallies and assault people in mass (even when the organizers denounce white supremacists and have anti-white nationalists signs).



I appreciate your crusade to somehow make Antifa JUST AS BAD as white supremacists.  When you are trying to whitewash (no pun intended) some pretty slimy people like neo-nazis, it's really the only possible play to distract from their stances.  Like, I think trashing a Starbucks sucks, but I think wanting to put people in gas chambers because they are Jewish is several orders of magnitude worse.  But that's just me.  Now, you can point to the prettier members of the alt-lite who are ostensibly into free speech, just like I can point to the prettier members of Antifa who protected clergy from the violence of white supremacists.  However, on a crime-for-crime basis, white supremacists are ahead by a long shot.  And, on shittiness of ideology, white supremacists are also winning.

But even if you were to convince anyone that Antifa=neo-nazis, your argument is going to fall short because there isn't any evidence that Hillary  is aligned with them to any level approaching Trump's coziness with white supremacists. It's not clear that Antifa members voted for Hillary, campaigned for Hillary, or supported Hillary in any significant way. Antifa protests aren't hotbeds of I'mWithHer tshirts.  Compare and contrast with Charlottesville, where a bunch of white supremacists wore Trump tshirts, talked about how they loved Trump, etc.  Stormfront message boards are love fests for Trump. 

From the other side, Hillary hasn't praised Antifa, said some of them are fine people, etc.  None of her advisers are cozy with Antifa.  But-hey-look over there! Why, it's Stephen Miller.  Old friend and roommate of nazi dirtbag Richard Spencer.  So, a senior Trump adviser is tight with a nazi.  Trump himself plays footsie with them.

SO, once again, this isn't the better timeline.  If Hillary were president, she wouldn't be chuckling about "Antifa will be antifa!" from her pizza sex dungeon.  We have a president who panders to white supremacists.  That sucks.  You can't WHATABOUTHILLARY!! that away.


You're mis-understanding the mainstream conservative position. The majority of conservatives are disgusted by white supremacy. It's seen as a huge mark against Trump to not denounce the Charlottesville protestors, and most of the other former GOP candidates did.

That said, here are the results for David Duke's senate campaign:
1990: 43%
1996: 11%
1999: 19%
2016: 3%

WS is a dying movement, and a rapidly dying movement, even among the most racist parts of the country.

Anti-Fa doesn't have the support of national Dem leaders (yet! Growth mindset!), but some local leaders have turned a blind eye to their activities. It's more worrying because it has far more room for growth than WS, although it's still quite small and pretty irrelevant right now.

I do intend to live longer than the next election cycle, though, so these groups are concerning.

Dabnasty

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #344 on: September 25, 2017, 08:09:01 AM »
I appreciate your crusade to somehow make Antifa JUST AS BAD as white supremacists.  When you are trying to whitewash (no pun intended) some pretty slimy people like neo-nazis, it's really the only possible play to distract from their stances.  Like, I think trashing a Starbucks sucks, but I think wanting to put people in gas chambers because they are Jewish is several orders of magnitude worse.  But that's just me.  Now, you can point to the prettier members of the alt-lite who are ostensibly into free speech, just like I can point to the prettier members of Antifa who protected clergy from the violence of white supremacists.  However, on a crime-for-crime basis, white supremacists are ahead by a long shot.  And, on shittiness of ideology, white supremacists are also winning.

But even if you were to convince anyone that Antifa=neo-nazis, your argument is going to fall short because there isn't any evidence that Hillary  is aligned with them to any level approaching Trump's coziness with white supremacists. It's not clear that Antifa members voted for Hillary, campaigned for Hillary, or supported Hillary in any significant way. Antifa protests aren't hotbeds of I'mWithHer tshirts.  Compare and contrast with Charlottesville, where a bunch of white supremacists wore Trump tshirts, talked about how they loved Trump, etc.  Stormfront message boards are love fests for Trump. 

From the other side, Hillary hasn't praised Antifa, said some of them are fine people, etc.  None of her advisers are cozy with Antifa.  But-hey-look over there! Why, it's Stephen Miller.  Old friend and roommate of nazi dirtbag Richard Spencer.  So, a senior Trump adviser is tight with a nazi.  Trump himself plays footsie with them.

SO, once again, this isn't the better timeline.  If Hillary were president, she wouldn't be chuckling about "Antifa will be antifa!" from her pizza sex dungeon.  We have a president who panders to white supremacists.  That sucks.  You can't WHATABOUTHILLARY!! that away.
I doubt Ben Shapiro or the other Jews that antifa of BAMN protests, violently, want to put Jews in gas chambers. Heck, even the white identitaries don't want that. I doubt the alt-lite, who expecitly left the alt-right because they disagreed with the racism in the alt-right, wants to gas some Jews.

This will be my last post in this thread. The fact I could point out that Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew, gets protested and that gets ignored (and instead the rebuttal is that Antifa only protests people who want to gas Jews), shows this is not a productive conservation worth my time.
Not what Wexler said at all. He was comparing the worst aspects of Antifa to the worst aspects of Nazis/white supremacists.


Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #345 on: September 25, 2017, 09:30:10 AM »
I appreciate your crusade to somehow make Antifa JUST AS BAD as white supremacists.  When you are trying to whitewash (no pun intended) some pretty slimy people like neo-nazis, it's really the only possible play to distract from their stances.  Like, I think trashing a Starbucks sucks, but I think wanting to put people in gas chambers because they are Jewish is several orders of magnitude worse.  But that's just me.  Now, you can point to the prettier members of the alt-lite who are ostensibly into free speech, just like I can point to the prettier members of Antifa who protected clergy from the violence of white supremacists.  However, on a crime-for-crime basis, white supremacists are ahead by a long shot.  And, on shittiness of ideology, white supremacists are also winning.

But even if you were to convince anyone that Antifa=neo-nazis, your argument is going to fall short because there isn't any evidence that Hillary  is aligned with them to any level approaching Trump's coziness with white supremacists. It's not clear that Antifa members voted for Hillary, campaigned for Hillary, or supported Hillary in any significant way. Antifa protests aren't hotbeds of I'mWithHer tshirts.  Compare and contrast with Charlottesville, where a bunch of white supremacists wore Trump tshirts, talked about how they loved Trump, etc.  Stormfront message boards are love fests for Trump. 

From the other side, Hillary hasn't praised Antifa, said some of them are fine people, etc.  None of her advisers are cozy with Antifa.  But-hey-look over there! Why, it's Stephen Miller.  Old friend and roommate of nazi dirtbag Richard Spencer.  So, a senior Trump adviser is tight with a nazi.  Trump himself plays footsie with them.

SO, once again, this isn't the better timeline.  If Hillary were president, she wouldn't be chuckling about "Antifa will be antifa!" from her pizza sex dungeon.  We have a president who panders to white supremacists.  That sucks.  You can't WHATABOUTHILLARY!! that away.
I doubt Ben Shapiro or the other Jews that antifa of BAMN protests, violently, want to put Jews in gas chambers. Heck, even the white identitaries don't want that. I doubt the alt-lite, who expecitly left the alt-right because they disagreed with the racism in the alt-right, wants to gas some Jews.

This will be my last post in this thread. The fact I could point out that Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew, gets protested and that gets ignored (and instead the rebuttal is that Antifa only protests people who want to gas Jews), shows this is not a productive conservation worth my time.
Not what Wexler said at all. He was comparing the worst aspects of Antifa to the worst aspects of Nazis/white supremacists.

Yeah-I just think that the argument that "Neo-nazis are bad and trump is definitely pandering to them, but Hillary would STILL be worse because she panders to Antifa but no one calls her out on it" is bizarre. I think everyone here agrees that Antifa is bad.  They definitely don't do any favors to the causes they ostensibly support.  However, none of those causes are the advancement of the democratic party or any particular democratic candidate.  As a democrat, I don't take any responsibility for their bullshit.  I can't think of any democrat who has hired policy experts out of the antifa ranks.  I just don't see the tie to Hillary or mainstream democrats.  I just think that this white supremacist association is so deeply embarrassing to many Republicans that they are desperate for an equivalent WHATABOUT on the other side.   I don't think that Antifa is the equivalent foil to white supremacists that many Republicans would like it to be, for reasons that have been extensively discussed.  And, again, white supremacists fell in line for Trump.  They phone-banked for him, they wear his hats and t-shirts. 

 



Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #346 on: September 25, 2017, 04:05:34 PM »
Another effect of the Trump presidency: A bunch of people became single-issue voters on the issue of email security for a few short months, but then totally dropped that issue on November 9, 2017.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/report-kushner-used-private-email-for-government-business.html


jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #347 on: September 25, 2017, 04:11:38 PM »
Another effect of the Trump presidency: A bunch of people became single-issue voters on the issue of email security for a few short months, but then totally dropped that issue on November 9, 2017.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/report-kushner-used-private-email-for-government-business.html
Lock him up, lock him up! 
Crooked Kushner.

Inaya

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #348 on: September 25, 2017, 07:47:45 PM »
Another effect of the Trump presidency: A bunch of people became single-issue voters on the issue of email security for a few short months, but then totally dropped that issue on November 9, 2017.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/report-kushner-used-private-email-for-government-business.html
Lock him up, lock him up! 
Crooked Kushner.

But... but... but... an e-mail address isn't the same as an e-mail server. A server is BAD. God my eyes are going to get stuck in the back of my skull from rolling them so hard.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 07:35:36 AM by Inaya »
My Cleverly Titled Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/cleverly-titled-journal/
My Cat's Facebook Page (yes, really): www.facebook.com/chicagotau
Tau now has an Instagram: www.instagram.com/chicagotau or #chicagotau
Ting referral ($25 credit!): https://zds8505smfe.ting.com/
Discover Card referral ($50 now and $50 after your first year! and free credit monitoring): https://refer.discover.com/s/gv3ma

DarkandStormy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #349 on: September 26, 2017, 06:43:37 AM »
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 40k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX