Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 342343 times)

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2850 on: July 17, 2018, 08:00:45 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1930
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2851 on: July 17, 2018, 08:14:04 AM »
I understand wanting to use the Constitution to define countries as enemies or not, but it was written at a time when the great powers of the world were the European powers. I do not believe that any of the signers of that document could have imagined a time when the power and wealth of the US would grow so substantial that our military might would be required to save Europe in two wars and then guarantee global security.

I think they did imagine that our values might be found compelling by other more powerful and wealthier countries that were already immersed in enlightenment thought.

We have only been a Super Power for about 100 years. As such, I'd argue that all nations of the world must be classified on a spectrum from helpful to adversarial, because these attitudes matter as we build power and establish security. Russia was aligned with us as part of the Iran deal (and would be in N Korea probably). Russia is pretty clearly adversarial in Syria, and blatantly opposed to us over Ukraine. All of these attitudes matter.

And all of these interactions mean that developing a sympathetic party, perhaps even helping him win the White House, can have value to Russia in all of these theaters.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8470
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2852 on: July 17, 2018, 08:23:35 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.
 

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1522
  • Location: MA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2853 on: July 17, 2018, 08:35:59 AM »
Quote
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

This, in a nut shell, is the whole ballgame right here.

A sizable percentage of the country is willing to forgo all democratic norms and values in order for their side to ďwinĒ. 

This person, and anyone else who thinks this way, isnít an American, they are a Republican (or a Democrat, if you are also willing to do the same to the Republicans to win).  They hold only one primary allegiance, and it isnít to the principles that our country was founded under.  They will happily trade away the civil rights and even the very humanity of their fellow citizens so that their tribe prospers.  They delight in cruelty and the suffering of others.  They are fine with our country being led by an obvious authoritarian to get some ďwinsĒ.  You are not an American, not in my book, and worse than the typical racist Trump supporter, because you know better, and you donít care.

 Sorrynotsorry. 


Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2854 on: July 17, 2018, 08:38:38 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh...?

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3304
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2855 on: July 17, 2018, 08:39:25 AM »
Quote
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

This, in a nut shell, is the whole ballgame right here.

A sizable percentage of the country is willing to forgo all democratic norms and values in order for their side to ďwinĒ. 

This person, and anyone else who thinks this way, isnít an American, they are a Republican (or a Democrat, if you are also willing to do the same to the Republicans to win).  They hold only one primary allegiance, and it isnít to the principles that our country was founded under.  They will happily trade away the civil rights and even the very humanity of their fellow citizens so that their tribe prospers.  They delight in cruelty and the suffering of others.  They are fine with our country being led by an obvious authoritarian to get some ďwinsĒ.  You are not an American, not in my book, and worse than the typical racist Trump supporter, because you know better, and you donít care.

 Sorrynotsorry.

I must agree.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2856 on: July 17, 2018, 08:51:45 AM »
Quote
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

This, in a nut shell, is the whole ballgame right here.

A sizable percentage of the country is willing to forgo all democratic norms and values in order for their side to ďwinĒ. 

This person, and anyone else who thinks this way, isnít an American, they are a Republican (or a Democrat, if you are also willing to do the same to the Republicans to win).  They hold only one primary allegiance, and it isnít to the principles that our country was founded under.  They will happily trade away the civil rights and even the very humanity of their fellow citizens so that their tribe prospers.  They delight in cruelty and the suffering of others.  They are fine with our country being led by an obvious authoritarian to get some ďwinsĒ.  You are not an American, not in my book, and worse than the typical racist Trump supporter, because you know better, and you donít care.

 Sorrynotsorry.

I must agree.

I would agree, excepting the bolded. That seems pretty harsh.

I think there are those who delight in the discomfort of the people they have deemed crazy leftists, but I don't think the majority of the people described here actually want people to suffer. Many have however convinced themselves that the suffering is made up or that the ends justify the means.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2857 on: July 17, 2018, 08:52:31 AM »
Quote
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

This, in a nut shell, is the whole ballgame right here.

A sizable percentage of the country is willing to forgo all democratic norms and values in order for their side to ďwinĒ. 

This person, and anyone else who thinks this way, isnít an American, they are a Republican (or a Democrat, if you are also willing to do the same to the Republicans to win).  They hold only one primary allegiance, and it isnít to the principles that our country was founded under.  They will happily trade away the civil rights and even the very humanity of their fellow citizens so that their tribe prospers.  They delight in cruelty and the suffering of others.  They are fine with our country being led by an obvious authoritarian to get some ďwinsĒ.  You are not an American, not in my book, and worse than the typical racist Trump supporter, because you know better, and you donít care.

 Sorrynotsorry.

Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists. My biggest fear was Hillary appointing someone who would ďreinterpret the 2A for our modern timesĒ and somehow fuck us over with it.

But I guess thatís not in line with the principles this country was founded on or something. Whatever.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7205
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2858 on: July 17, 2018, 08:56:06 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8470
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2859 on: July 17, 2018, 08:57:04 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh...?

you said it prevented HRC from nominating two appointments.  Do you think HRC would have retracted Garland's nomination in favor of someone else? If so, why and for whom?

toganet

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2860 on: July 17, 2018, 09:00:17 AM »
Here's my pet conspiracy theory, about how & why Putin helped Trump get elected, and why Trump is playing out Putin's agenda.

I'm reading into things here and I don't necessarily believe this is exactly what happened/is happening, but I feel it creates a plausible explanation based on what we know so far.

First, Putin's agenda:  Weaken the US as much and as broadly as possible.  This includes damaging alliances, crashing the economy, and destroying American's faith in its form of government, making it unlikely it can regain its former role in the world.  This also includes simultaneously elevating Russia's perception in the world, reducing sanctions, and creating new alliances for defense and trade, in an effort to revive the Russian economy.

Now, the theory.

Some assumptions:
  • Trump is not actually a billionaire, but is massively in debt and desperate for a way out.  This is why he's refused to release tax returns, and funnels gov't money into his own businesses.
  • Said debt involves money owed to Russian oligarchs, organized crime, and other shady individuals.
  • Trump's businesses have been involved in money laundering as a condition of continuing their financing arrangements

Over the last several years (possibly as far back as 1987) Trump has been working with the Russians to finance his ventures (business and gov't aren't really separate things there).  At some point prior to the 2016 campaign, Putin approached Trump (indirectly, most likely) with a proposal:

Putin: I'll help you get elected President, if you do what I say after you're elected.  I know you are in debt to my oligarchs, and I could call those debts at any time.  I also have dirt on you, but I won't use that -- unless I have to.  You want to President anyway, right?  And the stuff I want you to do aligns with what you want, as well.

Trump: No way, rooskie, I can get elected myself!  It's all my idea and I can pay off those debts from all the money I'll make through my businesses after I divert spending to myself and make deals that I can only make as President.  Plus, I'll change taxes so that they favor real estate, and most of my problems will go away.

Putin: Don't forget, I have dirt.  And you essentially owe ME billions.  I can use that now -- your plan takes years.

Trump: Ok, so what do you want me to do?  Why would it be what I want?

Putin: Because, my little orange one, it will not only get you out of debt, but it will make you truly rich! And nearly 40% of Americans will think you are the greatest!

Trump:  Tell me more!

Putin: It's simple really. I just need to you to crash the US economy in such a way that it triggers runaway inflation.  As a real estate guy, that's exactly what you need -- your highly-leveraged assets will suddenly be worth 10x what they are worth today, and your rents will go up in the same way!  But your debt stays the same.

Trump: I think I get it -- that building I paid $100 million for will be worth a billion, but I will still only owe $90 million on it?

Putin: Exactly.  It won't be hard to do this, either -- the cracks are already there in your system.  All you need to do is raise the national debt, increase interest rates, mess up your trade relationships, etc. -- I'll outline the whole plan later.  Your followers will go for it because it sounds "tough."  By the time the process is underway it'll be too late to do anything, and the government won't be trusted any more anyway.  It'll be great!

Trump: Ok, where do I sign up?  This was all my idea, but the way.

Putin:  Sure, sure. There's some other stuff I need done, but we'll get to that later. This is just the beginning, my little friend!

I think Putin was surprised that Trump actually won -- and he barely won, remember.  Putin just wanted Hillary to lose, or at least win without a clear mandate, meanwhile sowing discord (racial, class, etc) in the US.  If Trump had lost, the battle would have continued -- he'd be on twitter as much as he is now, if not more, possibly trying to start a civil war.  This all plays directly into Putin's plan, and if it continues as the GOP is allowing it to, Putin wins, we lose, Europe loses, and oh -- China also wins.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2861 on: July 17, 2018, 09:04:35 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

Wow. Lots of projecting.

I donít give a shit about abortion or gay marriage. Iím also interested in what ďfreedomsĒ Iím giving up based on Russiaís meddling meddling in the election.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2862 on: July 17, 2018, 09:05:30 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh...?

you said it prevented HRC from nominating two appointments.  Do you think HRC would have retracted Garland's nomination in favor of someone else? If so, why and for whom?

Semantics dude. Iím glad there are two trump picks on the SCOTUS.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4951
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2863 on: July 17, 2018, 09:07:05 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

Wow. Lots of projecting.

I donít give a shit about abortion or gay marriage. Iím also interested in what ďfreedomsĒ Iím giving up based on Russiaís meddling meddling in the election.

You yourself may not, but the Trump base as a whole absolutely does.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2864 on: July 17, 2018, 09:12:03 AM »
Here's my pet conspiracy theory, about how & why Putin helped Trump get elected, and why Trump is playing out Putin's agenda.

I'm reading into things here and I don't necessarily believe this is exactly what happened/is happening, but I feel it creates a plausible explanation based on what we know so far.

First, Putin's agenda:  Weaken the US as much and as broadly as possible.

I think thatís what it is about. I think Russia tried to cause as much internal infighting as possible in America to keep us at each otherís throats. I donít think they gave a shit who won as long as we are divided. I think Leftist elites who canít possibly imagine how Hillary could possibly lose hijakced the discussion to say russia meddled for Trump because thatís the only way they can understand Hillary is losing, but I donít think russia rigged it for Trump, they just stirred the pot as hard as they could.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2865 on: July 17, 2018, 09:12:57 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

Wow. Lots of projecting.

I donít give a shit about abortion or gay marriage. Iím also interested in what ďfreedomsĒ Iím giving up based on Russiaís meddling meddling in the election.

You yourself may not, but the Trump base as a whole absolutely does.

Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē 

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8470
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2866 on: July 17, 2018, 09:13:48 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh...?

you said it prevented HRC from nominating two appointments.  Do you think HRC would have retracted Garland's nomination in favor of someone else? If so, why and for whom?

Semantics dude. Iím glad there are two trump picks on the SCOTUS.

except it's not.  Your stated reason for supporting DJT has been that it prevented HRC from nominating two justices. That's both inaccurate and very different from saying you continue to support DJT because of who he did nominate.
It falls into the same trap of "...but Hillary!!"


Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2867 on: July 17, 2018, 09:17:00 AM »

I think Russia's ultimate goal was simply to create chaos in America. And the best way to do that was to get Trump elected, the most polarizing and corrupt candidate/President in history. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that Russia was surprised how well it worked.

I think Russia has seen an enormous return on their relatively minor investment to disrupt and discredit our elections.  But I'm curious about what happens going forward.  If Russia does have leverage over Trump, at what point would they find it beneficial to release that?

At this point, half+ of the country thinks Trump is some sort of Hitler/Satan combination.  And the other half likes the guy OK, but also thinks he probably gets his jollies grabbing women and getting pissed on by Russian hookers.

What, realistically, could Russia have that would make us think WORSE of Trump?

And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

Interesting question. Compromising material could take one of two (not mutually exclusive) forms - it could be highly embarassing to Trump himself and/or it could be something that would make the populace more negatively of him.  Given how prideful Trump is, its entirely possible that its more of the former and less of the latter.  Of course evidence of infidelity and bizarre sex acts tops the list (something which was brought up in the Steele dossier but not verified by either Steele or others). Or it could be that he is financially broke and propped up by Russian banks, which would severely undercut the argument that what the US needs is a successful businessman and great negotiator.
In terms of what might make the populace think worse of Trump - if he had made deals to undercut the US for personal enrichment (e.g. removing sanctions or promises not to retaliate in exchange for Trump properties in Moscow or forgiveness of taxes/debt).

Not sure what you mean by 2 SCOTUS appointments, unless you are somehow considering Scalia's replacement (Garland), nominated by Obama. Given GOP control of both the hosue and senate I'm pretty confident HRC couldn't have nominated someone very far left of center.

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh...?

you said it prevented HRC from nominating two appointments.  Do you think HRC would have retracted Garland's nomination in favor of someone else? If so, why and for whom?

Semantics dude. Iím glad there are two trump picks on the SCOTUS.

except it's not.  Your stated reason for supporting DJT has been that it prevented HRC from nominating two justices. That's both inaccurate and very different from saying you continue to support DJT because of who he did nominate.
It falls into the same trap of "...but Hillary!!"

Jesus fucking Christ. Iím glad there are two justices on the SCOTUS who were put there by Trump, instead of one by Hillary and one by Hillary nominating Obamaís old pick. Better?

Implied is the fact that I like Trumpís picks (Constitutionalist and likely 2A friendly) over whomever Hillary would pick.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11852
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2868 on: July 17, 2018, 09:24:24 AM »
Trump still embodies everything his supporters love.

Funny how they are typically the "god and country" type who place "family first". They also tend to be the ones that keep the flags around.

That's probably the single most beneficial thing about Trumps reign in the US.

He has very clearly exposed this facade for the lie that it is.  Country doesn't matter to Republicans . . . they wholeheartedly agree with and support measures which harm the US.  God doesn't matter (other than as a reason to impose "Christian" values on others through force).  Family First is laughable when the guy you're supporting was fucking a prostitute while his wife was at home with their newborn kid, who got divorced from both previous wives after having affairs while still married to them.

Trump's presidency is forcing Republicans to own up to the fact that all of those things were lies.  What's important to them is getting people that they like elected to the Supreme Court because 'fuck Hilary' is far more important than anything else.  It's like Jesus always said, "It's OK to be an asshole if you win."  Wait.  Jesus didn't say that?  In fact, his whole message was about helping others . . . not winning at their expense?  I guess we're exposing the lie that the core message of Christianity is important to Republicans too.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 10:53:37 AM by GuitarStv »

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2869 on: July 17, 2018, 09:26:34 AM »
Quote
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

This, in a nut shell, is the whole ballgame right here.

A sizable percentage of the country is willing to forgo all democratic norms and values in order for their side to “win”. 

This person, and anyone else who thinks this way, isn’t an American, they are a Republican (or a Democrat, if you are also willing to do the same to the Republicans to win).  They hold only one primary allegiance, and it isn’t to the principles that our country was founded under.  They will happily trade away the civil rights and even the very humanity of their fellow citizens so that their tribe prospers.  They delight in cruelty and the suffering of others.  They are fine with our country being led by an obvious authoritarian to get some “wins”.  You are not an American, not in my book, and worse than the typical racist Trump supporter, because you know better, and you don’t care.

 Sorrynotsorry.

I must agree.

I would agree, excepting the bolded. That seems pretty harsh.

I think there are those who delight in the discomfort of the people they have deemed crazy leftists, but I don't think the majority of the people described here actually want people to suffer. Many have however convinced themselves that the suffering is made up or that the ends justify the means.
I also agree with this.  While the bolded may not apply to all Trump supporters, it definitely applies to some.  They may not enjoy the suffering of others but they definitely want them to suffer (even when there are other options).  Remember, suffering is a deterrent.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:29:14 AM by shenlong55 »

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1522
  • Location: MA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2870 on: July 17, 2018, 09:32:24 AM »
Quote
Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists.

Strict constitutionalist my ass.  How quaint.  I donít even buy it, not for a second.  Conservatives are happy to throw the constitution in the trash when it suits them. 

They fucking got this wonderful Supreme Court judge Neil Gorsuch, by subverting the very system of government that you claim to worship, so donít even try to play that game. 

Just say what you mean:  The ends justify the means, as long as I get my way, and the hell with anyone else. 


Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2871 on: July 17, 2018, 09:35:20 AM »
Quote
Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists.

Strict constitutionalist my ass.  How quaint.  I donít even buy it, not for a second.  Conservatives are happy to throw the constitution in the trash when it suits them. 

They fucking got this wonderful Supreme Court judge Neil Gorsuch, by subverting the very system of government that you claim to worship, so donít even try to play that game. 

Just say what you mean:  The ends justify the means, as long as I get my way, and the hell with anyone else.

They were able to do that using the rules the Dems created in the first place doing the.  Same.  Fucking.  Thing.

I may be a partisan asshole, but I can admit it. Can you?

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4951
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2872 on: July 17, 2018, 09:39:30 AM »
Quote
Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists.

Strict constitutionalist my ass.  How quaint.  I donít even buy it, not for a second.  Conservatives are happy to throw the constitution in the trash when it suits them. 

They fucking got this wonderful Supreme Court judge Neil Gorsuch, by subverting the very system of government that you claim to worship, so donít even try to play that game. 

Just say what you mean:  The ends justify the means, as long as I get my way, and the hell with anyone else.

They were able to do that using the rules the Dems created in the first place doing the.  Same.  Fucking.  Thing.

I may be a partisan asshole, but I can admit it. Can you?

"But they did it so it's fine" does not refute the point.

toganet

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2873 on: July 17, 2018, 09:43:12 AM »
Quote
Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists.

Strict constitutionalist my ass.  How quaint.  I donít even buy it, not for a second.  Conservatives are happy to throw the constitution in the trash when it suits them. 

They fucking got this wonderful Supreme Court judge Neil Gorsuch, by subverting the very system of government that you claim to worship, so donít even try to play that game. 

Just say what you mean:  The ends justify the means, as long as I get my way, and the hell with anyone else.

They were able to do that using the rules the Dems created in the first place doing the.  Same.  Fucking.  Thing.



If you're referring to the so-called Biden Rule, it's important to be clear about what that is and is not. 

Quote
Biden's floor speech was on June 25, 1992, more than three months later in the election cycle than it is now.

There was no Supreme Court vacancy to fill.

There was no nominee to consider.

The Senate never took a vote to adopt a rule to delay consideration of a nominee until after the election.

Nonetheless, Biden took to the floor in a speech addressing the Senate president to urge delay if a vacancy did appear. But he didn't argue for a delay until the next president began his term, as McConnell is doing. He said the nomination process should be put off until after the election, which was on Nov. 3, 1992.
(emphasis mine)

Now, the Senate under Harry Reid did change the rule to allow confirmation of Supremes with just 51 votes -- a huge mistake in my opinion.


nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8470
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2874 on: July 17, 2018, 09:44:59 AM »


Jesus fucking Christ. Iím glad there are two justices on the SCOTUS who were put there by Trump, instead of one by Hillary and one by Hillary nominating Obamaís old pick. Better?

Implied is the fact that I like Trumpís picks (Constitutionalist and likely 2A friendly) over whomever Hillary would pick.

Better, but still confusing. You are still saying that the replacement for Scalia would have been Hillary's pick, which is frankly bizarre and seems to an attempt at revisionist history.  Garland was nominated by Obama, 7 months before election.

a "constitutionalist' seems to be defined by the individual to mean whatever judge supports their particular opinions I have not seen any member of SCOTUS not defer to the constitution - but if a particular judge rules that the constitution does or does not protect a particular action or group their supporters grumble about he or she not being a 'constitutionalist'.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7205
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2875 on: July 17, 2018, 09:53:38 AM »
Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I can see why it felt that way.  I was interpreting your comment to mean that you don't care about trump licking Putin's boots as long as the supreme court leans far right, and that you want the court to lean far right because of social issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, gun violence, Citizens United, immigration, sticking it to liberals, etc.).

That's a problem, in my book.  If Roe v Wade is a voter's only concern, and it overrides the concerns with installing a Russian puppet in the presidency, then that voter has absolutely sold out America.  Ditto if it's gays or guns or brown people or whatever else.  America, first and foremost, has always stood for democracy.  If you are willing to trade away the idea of democracy for any other issue, then you're anti-American.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2876 on: July 17, 2018, 10:06:01 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

Wow. Lots of projecting.

I donít give a shit about abortion or gay marriage. Iím also interested in what ďfreedomsĒ Iím giving up based on Russiaís meddling meddling in the election.

Sure,  But you'd happily throw the rights of gay people and women away so that you can continue to fondle guns with no tiny speed bumps like universal background checks that would make no difference to your life or your ability to continue to store an unsecured loaded gun in your room with a toddler in the house.  A brave stance, since the downside only hits the other, not you.

No partial credit for Trump voters who are "socially liberal, man." 

Putin counted on voters like you.  He knew that the NRA was the way to get you to fall in line.  But now that it's all out the open (it was before, but it was easier to lalalalala before Trump treasoned all over himself on TV), I can't believe that you are still like: eh-endangering our whole country's geopolitical status to bend to a murderous authoritarian's goals is a good deal to make for muh guns.  Or maybe this is some of that amazing Trump dealmaking I keep hearing about?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 10:15:38 AM by Wexler »

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3070
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2877 on: July 17, 2018, 11:03:31 AM »
Quote
Which is ironic, because I like that Trump has appointed some pretty strict Constitutionalists.

Strict constitutionalist my ass.  How quaint.  I donít even buy it, not for a second.  Conservatives are happy to throw the constitution in the trash when it suits them. 

"Constitutionalists" are like libertarians. Even "true Scotsman" constitutionalists don't strictly follow the ideology.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2878 on: July 17, 2018, 11:09:17 AM »
Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I can see why it felt that way.  I was interpreting your comment to mean that you don't care about trump licking Putin's boots as long as the supreme court leans far right, and that you want the court to lean far right because of social issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, gun violence, Citizens United, immigration, sticking it to liberals, etc.).

That's a problem, in my book.  If Roe v Wade is a voter's only concern, and it overrides the concerns with installing a Russian puppet in the presidency, then that voter has absolutely sold out America.  Ditto if it's gays or guns or brown people or whatever else.  America, first and foremost, has always stood for democracy.  If you are willing to trade away the idea of democracy for any other issue, then you're anti-American.

What I got out of Chris's comments were that he'll gladly accept Trump and whatever shit storm he brings so he can keep his guns. He didn't directly say he hates gay people, but he doesn't give a shit about what happens to them because of guns.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3135
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2879 on: July 17, 2018, 11:14:01 AM »
Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I can see why it felt that way.  I was interpreting your comment to mean that you don't care about trump licking Putin's boots as long as the supreme court leans far right, and that you want the court to lean far right because of social issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, gun violence, Citizens United, immigration, sticking it to liberals, etc.).

That's a problem, in my book.  If Roe v Wade is a voter's only concern, and it overrides the concerns with installing a Russian puppet in the presidency, then that voter has absolutely sold out America.  Ditto if it's gays or guns or brown people or whatever else.  America, first and foremost, has always stood for democracy.  If you are willing to trade away the idea of democracy for any other issue, then you're anti-American.

What I got out of Chris's comments were that he'll gladly accept Trump and whatever shit storm he brings so he can keep his guns. He didn't directly say he hates gay people, but he doesn't give a shit about what happens to them because of guns.

Let me know when Trump opposes something blatantly anti-gay so I can oppose it.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7205
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2880 on: July 17, 2018, 11:19:16 AM »
In another unsurprising development in the Russia investigation, the NRA was working with Russian spies to influence American politicians, including the new president.

The Russians literally used the NRA to get access to some republican congressmen, another unspecified American politician, and to influence the republican party platform.

The public release of the arrest warrant for a Russian agent who successfully infiltrated the republican party apparatus was accompanied by court documents suggesting there are other known agents in the party, whose names are not yet being released in order to protect sources, and to protect against those people destroying evidence and fleeing the country before they can be apprehended.

But I'm sure trump will call it all a witch hunt, then he'll make fun of a disabled child or something and we'll all move on.  Putin told me he didn't do it!

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3304
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2881 on: July 17, 2018, 11:21:47 AM »
Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I can see why it felt that way.  I was interpreting your comment to mean that you don't care about trump licking Putin's boots as long as the supreme court leans far right, and that you want the court to lean far right because of social issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, gun violence, Citizens United, immigration, sticking it to liberals, etc.).

That's a problem, in my book.  If Roe v Wade is a voter's only concern, and it overrides the concerns with installing a Russian puppet in the presidency, then that voter has absolutely sold out America.  Ditto if it's gays or guns or brown people or whatever else.  America, first and foremost, has always stood for democracy.  If you are willing to trade away the idea of democracy for any other issue, then you're anti-American.

What I got out of Chris's comments were that he'll gladly accept Trump and whatever shit storm he brings so he can keep his guns. He didn't directly say he hates gay people, but he doesn't give a shit about what happens to them because of guns.

Let me know when Trump opposes something blatantly anti-gay so I can oppose it.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-doj-fired-being-gay-lgbt-issues-jeff-sessions-673398?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1963
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2882 on: July 17, 2018, 11:22:08 AM »
And in full transparency, I think Trump's a total dirtbag, but he's now prevented 2 Hillary SCOTUS appointments (and potentially counting) so I'll take him.  Sorrynotsorry.

It's kind of an interesting role reversal for the American parties, isn't it?  For the past 40 years, the Republicans have leveraged their foreign policy expertise and the Democrats have leveraged social issues, in order to win elections.  Now, the Republican President is suddenly an obsequious Russian bootlicker and the GOP has forfeit any and all claims to defending American freedoms.  Without that foreign policy lever to rely on, they have suddenly turned to social issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) to motivate their voter base, as evidenced by people like Chris22 here.  They don't care if America abandons it's role as leader of the free world, as long as those faggots don't get to wear wedding rings!

Priorities, people.  Let's think this through.  Your American culture wars won't mean much when Russia v China becomes the historical narrative of the 21st century.  You're so caught up in getting that little victory for your pastor that you've lost your whole country.

Wow. Lots of projecting.

I donít give a shit about abortion or gay marriage. Iím also interested in what ďfreedomsĒ Iím giving up based on Russiaís meddling meddling in the election.
So this is strictly a second amendment issue then?

What is your thought on the Russian funding of NRA (with indictments yesterday)?

The support for a president who destroys the democratic norms that facilitate our liberty in order to protect a constitutional provision to keep guns to protect our freedoms from the government (assumption, noted) seems a faustian bargain, no?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11852
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2883 on: July 17, 2018, 11:32:26 AM »
Maybe maybe not, but I was responding to Solís post basically accusing me of ďhating faggots.Ē

It wasn't meant as a personal attack, but I can see why it felt that way.  I was interpreting your comment to mean that you don't care about trump licking Putin's boots as long as the supreme court leans far right, and that you want the court to lean far right because of social issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, gun violence, Citizens United, immigration, sticking it to liberals, etc.).

That's a problem, in my book.  If Roe v Wade is a voter's only concern, and it overrides the concerns with installing a Russian puppet in the presidency, then that voter has absolutely sold out America.  Ditto if it's gays or guns or brown people or whatever else.  America, first and foremost, has always stood for democracy.  If you are willing to trade away the idea of democracy for any other issue, then you're anti-American.

What I got out of Chris's comments were that he'll gladly accept Trump and whatever shit storm he brings so he can keep his guns. He didn't directly say he hates gay people, but he doesn't give a shit about what happens to them because of guns.

Let me know when Trump opposes something blatantly anti-gay so I can oppose it.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-doj-fired-being-gay-lgbt-issues-jeff-sessions-673398?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

Trump rescinded federal bathroom protections for trans-gendered students immediately after taking office.  (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/us/politics/devos-sessions-transgender-students-rights.html?_r=0)

Trump stopped data collection on LGBTQ seniors, preventing government agencies from seeing how policy descisions will impact them.  (https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-administration-removes-lgbtq-questions-elderly-survey-n735741).  He also stopped collecting LGBTQ data with the national census:  https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/us-census-lgbt-americans_us_58db3894e4b0cb23e65c6cd9.

Trump has staffed his administration with people who are blatently anti-gay:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/12/15/trump-cabinet-who-who-homophobia/9UDr8MnXIQAxjO369qzT0J/story.html
https://mic.com/articles/31809/ben-carson-compares-homosexuality-to-bestiality-and-pedophilia#.p9YOKx0X0
https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-hrc-report-details-jeff-sessions-alarming-anti-lgbtq-record
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/mike-pence-religious-freedom-law-indiana_us_57c839b9e4b0a22de09446d8

The white house took the time to photoshop Luxembourg's gay first husband out of a picture of spouses of world leaders: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/28/white-house-accused-homophobia-luxembourg-pms-husband-omitted/

this list can go on, and on.  Were you being facetious with your request Chris, or are you really this uninformed?

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7205
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2884 on: July 17, 2018, 11:50:14 AM »
Were you being facetious with your request Chris, or are you really this uninformed?

I'm guessing genuinely uninformed.  Fox doesn't cover these stories.

Part of the strategy for maintaining electoral majorities is remaining sufficiently amorphous in your policy positions that you don't alienate too many people who would otherwise oppose your bad ideas.  Trump has actively attacked gay rights on the policy level while mostly being silent on the Twitter level, so I'm guessing lots of people are just unaware. 

The presidents Twitter feed is basically their only source of news, in some cases, so Helsinki was a smashing success, Hillary's emails will take your guns to benghazi, his tax returns are totally clean, and there was no collusion.  And he had no opinions about gays, apparently.  Anything that doesn't come from trump himself is fake news.

I'm beginning to think objective reality was always s farce anyway.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2885 on: July 17, 2018, 11:56:33 AM »
Thank you for going at bat for the gay community.

I'm personally too overwhelmed by Donald Trump, news, and the world to even be able to provide a coherently worded response.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1963
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2886 on: July 17, 2018, 11:58:44 AM »
George Orwell was an optimist, as it turns out. His concept of Newspeak was that language would be simplified to reduce the range of discourse and prevent articulation of complex ideas, and thus prevent political dissent. This was optimistic because it held that language would still have meaning. The current "fake news" climate of bare faced lying about absolutely everything is so much worse because it simply dismisses the value of meaning. This has long been practiced in Russia where state media mouthpieces would intentionally distribute different versions of stories to promulgate a pervasive confusion about objective reality. Putin alluded to this in his quote from yesterday, "PUTIN: As to who is to be believed, who is not to be believed: you can trust no one."

One of the most important things is to maintain for a functional democracy is a grounding in actual facts... ground that is rapidly being destroyed by Trump, Fox news and the entire menagerie of enablers.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2887 on: July 17, 2018, 12:17:59 PM »
George Orwell was an optimist, as it turns out. His concept of Newspeak was that language would be simplified to reduce the range of discourse and prevent articulation of complex ideas, and thus prevent political dissent. This was optimistic because it held that language would still have meaning. The current "fake news" climate of bare faced lying about absolutely everything is so much worse because it simply dismisses the value of meaning. This has long been practiced in Russia where state media mouthpieces would intentionally distribute different versions of stories to promulgate a pervasive confusion about objective reality. Putin alluded to this in his quote from yesterday, "PUTIN: As to who is to be believed, who is not to be believed: you can trust no one."

One of the most important things is to maintain for a functional democracy is a grounding in actual facts... ground that is rapidly being destroyed by Trump, Fox news and the entire menagerie of enablers.

Along that same vein Masha Gessen is interviewed by Sam Harris and in the interview Harris asks about Russian public opinion. Masha Gessen corrects Harris and explains that in a country that has no public and no opinions there is no public opinion. Putin over his 18 year reign has presided over the destruction of the public sphere. You canít have public opinion without a public sphere. ..instead you have the total domination of the thoughts, and feelings and perceptions of its citizens by the Kremlin. The view that dominates from the Kremlin is that Russia is under siege and is at war with the United States.


https://samharris.org/podcasts/131-dictators-immigration-metoo-imponderables/

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2888 on: July 17, 2018, 12:19:27 PM »
Here's my pet conspiracy theory, about how & why Putin helped Trump get elected, and why Trump is playing out Putin's agenda.
...

Meh, who knows, the part about Putin generally wanting us weaker is probably true. Then again maybe not, the most important part of Putin is his head and if the US cannot consume goods from the rest of the world that is bad for everyone which means the price of oil goes to the dirt(Putin's head).

I would guess Trump's overtures to Russia have something to do with oil.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/shale-to-the-chief-russia-and-saudi-arabias-great-oil-game/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/29/when-russia-finally-hops-on-shale-bandwagon-opec-is-finished/#45b471181af0


I have some guesses, but most of them probably involve a better US economy. Contrary to your conspiracy, most of Trumps properties would go under as a profit making properties if the US hit the tank. People will buy the necessities in hyperinflation, not an elaborate weekend of golf.


partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2295
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2889 on: July 17, 2018, 12:41:06 PM »
Here's my pet conspiracy theory, about how & why Putin helped Trump get elected, and why Trump is playing out Putin's agenda.

I'm reading into things here and I don't necessarily believe this is exactly what happened/is happening, but I feel it creates a plausible explanation based on what we know so far.

First, Putin's agenda:  Weaken the US as much and as broadly as possible.


I think thatís what it is about. I think Russia tried to cause as much internal infighting as possible in America to keep us at each otherís throats. I donít think they gave a shit who won as long as we are divided. I think Leftist elites who canít possibly imagine how Hillary could possibly lose hijakced the discussion to say russia meddled for Trump because thatís the only way they can understand Hillary is losing, but I donít think russia rigged it for Trump, they just stirred the pot as hard as they could.


Maybe that's your opinion, but that's not the conclusion of what the independent investigations the CIA and FBI reports found. According to these reports, Russia worked on multiple fronts 1) lots of media type spamming facebook, twitter, even posting on blogs, etc as well as actual creation of groups that were intended to increase divisions between people. 2) what bias there was in these public media and letters to the editor, were anti hillary, pro trump. Even Putin admits he wanted Trump to win (he either has some dirt on Trump so he can influence him, and/or believed Hillary would be tougher regarding foreign policy 3) Trump's team actively communicated and met with Russian agents, for the purpose of hacking and getting Hillary emails. Hillary's emails WERE hacked and released, before the election with the aim to make her lose the election. And 4th) there is evidence that Russian agents hacked into actual state voting machines, as well as trying to find other ways of trying to rig our elections. I don't know how else to say, having our president NOT take action and condemn this, and make sure this doesn't happen again, is extremely concerning.
what is interesting is, that Obama learned information about Russian interference in election, but was convinced by McConnell not to make an announcement about it. McConnell is also a traitor.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:43:00 PM by partgypsy »

toganet

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2890 on: July 17, 2018, 12:42:18 PM »
Here's my pet conspiracy theory, about how & why Putin helped Trump get elected, and why Trump is playing out Putin's agenda.
...

Meh, who knows, the part about Putin generally wanting us weaker is probably true. Then again maybe not, the most important part of Putin is his head and if the US cannot consume goods from the rest of the world that is bad for everyone which means the price of oil goes to the dirt(Putin's head).

I would guess Trump's overtures to Russia have something to do with oil.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/shale-to-the-chief-russia-and-saudi-arabias-great-oil-game/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/29/when-russia-finally-hops-on-shale-bandwagon-opec-is-finished/#45b471181af0


I have some guesses, but most of them probably involve a better US economy. Contrary to your conspiracy, most of Trumps properties would go under as a profit making properties if the US hit the tank. People will buy the necessities in hyperinflation, not an elaborate weekend of golf.

I didn't mean to imply the plan would work -- only that Trump needed to believe it would, at least enough to play along.  Putin has leverage against him in this scenario, and the inflation angle is Putin's carrot.  The carrot does not need to exist to motivate.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1963
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2891 on: July 17, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »
George Orwell was an optimist, as it turns out. His concept of Newspeak was that language would be simplified to reduce the range of discourse and prevent articulation of complex ideas, and thus prevent political dissent. This was optimistic because it held that language would still have meaning. The current "fake news" climate of bare faced lying about absolutely everything is so much worse because it simply dismisses the value of meaning. This has long been practiced in Russia where state media mouthpieces would intentionally distribute different versions of stories to promulgate a pervasive confusion about objective reality. Putin alluded to this in his quote from yesterday, "PUTIN: As to who is to be believed, who is not to be believed: you can trust no one."

One of the most important things is to maintain for a functional democracy is a grounding in actual facts... ground that is rapidly being destroyed by Trump, Fox news and the entire menagerie of enablers.

Along that same vein Masha Gessen is interviewed by Sam Harris and in the interview Harris asks about Russian public opinion. Masha Gessen corrects Harris and explains that in a country that has no public and no opinions there is no public opinion. Putin over his 18 year reign has presided over the destruction of the public sphere. You canít have public opinion without a public sphere. ..instead you have the total domination of the thoughts, and feelings and perceptions of its citizens by the Kremlin. The view that dominates from the Kremlin is that Russia is under siege and is at war with the United States.


https://samharris.org/podcasts/131-dictators-immigration-metoo-imponderables/

See also Preet Bharara's interview with Gary Kasparov.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2892 on: July 17, 2018, 01:42:47 PM »
Trump is declaring his #TreasonSummit took place on opposite day, apparently.

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Age: 36
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2893 on: July 17, 2018, 01:43:41 PM »
Trump is declaring his #TreasonSummit took place on opposite day, apparently.

Yup, nothing to fear folks, Trump misspoke and Russia did meddle.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1963
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2894 on: July 17, 2018, 02:00:57 PM »

From an article in the NYT
Quote
ďMy people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think itís Russia,Ē Mr. Trump said, referring to the director of national intelligence, Dan Coats. ďI have President Putin; he just said itís not Russia. I will say this: I donít see any reason why it would be.Ē

On Tuesday, Mr. Trump said, ďIn a key sentence in my remarks, I said the word Ďwouldí instead of Ďwouldnít.íĒ

To be clear, the full quote that Trump says he *really* wanted to say was:
"I will say this: I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I really do want to see the server. But I have -- I have confidence in both parties. I really believe that this will probably go on for a while, but I don't think it can go on without finding out what happened to the server. What happened to the servers of the Pakistani gentleman that worked on the DNC? Where are those servers? They're missing. Where are they? What happened to Hillary Clinton's emails? Thirty-three thousand emails gone -- just gone. I think, in Russia, they wouldn't be gone so easily. I think it's a disgrace that we can't get Hillary Clinton's 33,000 emails. "

This ignores the follow up "confidence in both parties" and then a redirect to talking about Hillary's emails. And did we really forget that Trump very publicly and specifically called out to the Russians to find those 33,000 emails? Or that he has been discounting the intelligence assessments for months?

Sorry, but this still just doesn't pass the sniff test as being okay or above board.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8470
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2895 on: July 17, 2018, 02:02:03 PM »
Trump is declaring his #TreasonSummit took place on opposite day, apparently.

Yup, nothing to fear folks, Trump misspoke and Russia did meddle.

I expect Trump will go back to his same playbook over the next few days.  And by that I mean anytime he's forced to apologize he stews for a day or two and then makes some outrageous statement the his base cheers and makes everyone else gasp. Suddenly no one is talking about Helsinki anymore.  THe only question is: what crazy thing will he do next to get the news cycle off of him and Putin. I'm guessing he'll push the immigration issue even further.  Maybe he'll order the temporary detention of anyone who appears latino as they try to go through any border crossing legitimately, citing 'national security' concerns.. .

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1963
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2896 on: July 17, 2018, 02:05:14 PM »
Trump is declaring his #TreasonSummit took place on opposite day, apparently.

Yup, nothing to fear folks, Trump misspoke and Russia did meddle.

I expect Trump will go back to his same playbook over the next few days.  And by that I mean anytime he's forced to apologize he stews for a day or two and then makes some outrageous statement the his base cheers and makes everyone else gasp. Suddenly no one is talking about Helsinki anymore.  THe only question is: what crazy thing will he do next to get the news cycle off of him and Putin. I'm guessing he'll push the immigration issue even further.  Maybe he'll order the temporary detention of anyone who appears latino as they try to go through any border crossing legitimately, citing 'national security' concerns.. .

or maybe he'll just try and rush the SCOTUS hearings.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4951
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2897 on: July 17, 2018, 02:32:17 PM »

From an article in the NYT
Quote
ďMy people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think itís Russia,Ē Mr. Trump said, referring to the director of national intelligence, Dan Coats. ďI have President Putin; he just said itís not Russia. I will say this: I donít see any reason why it would be.Ē

On Tuesday, Mr. Trump said, ďIn a key sentence in my remarks, I said the word Ďwouldí instead of Ďwouldnít.íĒ

To be clear, the full quote that Trump says he *really* wanted to say was:
"I will say this: I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I really do want to see the server. But I have -- I have confidence in both parties. I really believe that this will probably go on for a while, but I don't think it can go on without finding out what happened to the server. What happened to the servers of the Pakistani gentleman that worked on the DNC? Where are those servers? They're missing. Where are they? What happened to Hillary Clinton's emails? Thirty-three thousand emails gone -- just gone. I think, in Russia, they wouldn't be gone so easily. I think it's a disgrace that we can't get Hillary Clinton's 33,000 emails. "

This ignores the follow up "confidence in both parties" and then a redirect to talking about Hillary's emails. And did we really forget that Trump very publicly and specifically called out to the Russians to find those 33,000 emails? Or that he has been discounting the intelligence assessments for months?

Sorry, but this still just doesn't pass the sniff test as being okay or above board.

BUTTERY MAILSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1772
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2898 on: July 17, 2018, 02:48:59 PM »
Were you being facetious with your request Chris, or are you really this uninformed?

I'm guessing genuinely uninformed.  Fox doesn't cover these stories.

Part of the strategy for maintaining electoral majorities is remaining sufficiently amorphous in your policy positions that you don't alienate too many people who would otherwise oppose your bad ideas.  Trump has actively attacked gay rights on the policy level while mostly being silent on the Twitter level, so I'm guessing lots of people are just unaware. 

The presidents Twitter feed is basically their only source of news, in some cases, so Helsinki was a smashing success, Hillary's emails will take your guns to benghazi, his tax returns are totally clean, and there was no collusion.  And he had no opinions about gays, apparently.  Anything that doesn't come from trump himself is fake news.

I'm beginning to think objective reality was always s farce anyway.

So, Sol, I've been thinking those of us who trained in the sciences were really duped, huh?  There's no objective reality after all; why did we even bother when we could just pull facts out of our asses and it would be just as good?  We should just start making shit up and publishing it! That's sure a lot easier and cheaper.  And hell, maybe in new upside down world, the mouth-breathers will even start to listen to us!

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4951
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2899 on: July 17, 2018, 02:52:12 PM »
Were you being facetious with your request Chris, or are you really this uninformed?

I'm guessing genuinely uninformed.  Fox doesn't cover these stories.

Part of the strategy for maintaining electoral majorities is remaining sufficiently amorphous in your policy positions that you don't alienate too many people who would otherwise oppose your bad ideas.  Trump has actively attacked gay rights on the policy level while mostly being silent on the Twitter level, so I'm guessing lots of people are just unaware. 

The presidents Twitter feed is basically their only source of news, in some cases, so Helsinki was a smashing success, Hillary's emails will take your guns to benghazi, his tax returns are totally clean, and there was no collusion.  And he had no opinions about gays, apparently.  Anything that doesn't come from trump himself is fake news.

I'm beginning to think objective reality was always s farce anyway.

So, Sol, I've been thinking those of us who trained in the sciences were really duped, huh?  There's no objective reality after all; why did we even bother when we could just pull facts out of our asses and it would be just as good?  We should just start making shit up and publishing it! That's sure a lot easier and cheaper.  And hell, maybe in new upside down world, the mouth-breathers will even start to listen to us!

Well, today I was told by a Trump supporter that all the news is fake and to come back when I start listening to Sean Hannity.

Sooo...yeah.