Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 404065 times)

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2750 on: July 15, 2018, 07:21:49 PM »
More golf is good! It stops him trying to actually do anything in government, or talking to any foreign leaders and destroying long-term US relationships. Government is like medicine: above all, do no harm. If you can get through eight years of Trump with him doing no (more) harm, you'll have come out well!

More golf!

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2751 on: July 15, 2018, 08:01:42 PM »
Trump has announced that he will run for re-election in 2 years.

That is all.

We did already know this, though. He filed his paperwork almost immediately after he took office, so that he could start accepting campaign contributions for 2020. And heís been holding campaign rallies all along.
..but... but... but... i thought he wasn't beholden to campaign donors because he didn't need their money...

33 million so far.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/15/trump-money-reelection-2020-722413

Bro-mero

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2752 on: July 16, 2018, 12:46:16 AM »

The US gets 40% of its imported crude from Canada. Canada, per Trump's tariffs, is now a national security threat. Does the US support a better health care system or, worse, socialism?!? Does Trump want Americans to start pronouncing "out" as "oot"?

Well, we can easily infiltrate you by saying out properly, as out not oot, and about as about, not aboot.  Does that make us more of a security threat?    ;-)

Socialism?   Huh?  Decent health care = socialism?

ooh Canadians might infiltrate us and give us better healthcare! I'm sceered. Then again they did give us Pamela Anderson and  Matthew Perry so maybe I have a right to be concerned.

Nickleback and Celine Dion too.  I figure the irresponsible release of those biological weapons on an unsuspecting American populace was why Trump classified us a security risk.

Don't forget Justin Bieber. :shudders:

Huh. I'm starting to think Canada isn't the great "ally" we think they are...

You're being too USCentric, the Bieber was released worldwide, with horrific consequences on the young.

You're right! Canada MUST be stopped, before they kill again!

They also gave us Neil Young and Rush, so all is forgiven

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2753 on: July 16, 2018, 01:29:13 AM »
More golf is good! It stops him trying to actually do anything in government, or talking to any foreign leaders and destroying long-term US relationships. Government is like medicine: above all, do no harm. If you can get through eight years of Trump with him doing no (more) harm, you'll have come out well!

More golf!

Is there any chance that a proliferation of Trumpbaby blimps would put the tiny-handed orange one off further trips abroad?   Can the world limit the malign effects of Trump's attempts at negotiations this way?

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2754 on: July 16, 2018, 01:38:13 AM »
Of course not! Why wouldn't he go where everyone loves him?

 ďSome of them are protesting in my favor, you know that?í Trump insisted. "There are many, many protests in my favor.Ē

https://deadline.com/2018/07/president-donald-trump-talks-with-piers-morgan-on-queen-putin-twitter-trade-1202426711/

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2755 on: July 16, 2018, 03:12:32 AM »
As I said many times, US problems go far, far beyond whatever particular corrupt clown happens to be in the White House at the moment.

https://youtu.be/QkXeMoBPSDk?t=8m18s

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2756 on: July 16, 2018, 06:46:13 AM »
And yet heís recently declared poverty not a problem here in the US. You know, so he can stop programs that help the working class in trouble. What they were sadly too dense to realize is he was USING them, not experiencing a wave of empathy. He hasnít a single empathetic bone in his body.
The working class conservatives with an intellectual streak that I know all said something like "I'm making a gamble here, that Trump-Running-For-Office is as close on economic issues to Trump-Being-In-Office as Obama-R-F-O was to O-B-I-O on social issues. For him to be worse for my community than Hillary, one of them would have to just be straight up lying about their economic priorities on the campaign trail."
<stares into the camera like The Office>
I guess they lost their gamble, but we'll see how the economy looks this time next year.

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2757 on: July 16, 2018, 08:15:16 AM »
The Orange one can't seriously be mentally stable. Why can't Congress or Supreme Court do something to stop him? Are there no laws on the books to control an out of control maniac?

Roadrunner, you have asked this same question repeatedly on these forums. Is it just rhetorical venting? If so, cool.  I vent constantly to friends and family.  But if it is not rhetorical, many of us have repeatedly answered you.

Wench, I'll make a note of that but if my postings bother you, I would suggest you don't read them or "repeatedly" respond to them. That is a very easy fix! Thank you for sharing.

They don't bother me.  I just wondered if you legitimately didn't understand all the answers people have given.  Personally, I think Trump is mentally ill, a vile asshole, and a traitor to the country.  I vent about it all the time...though not so much on this board.  I wasn't being snarky with you, just wasn't sure if venting was what you were doing.

Yes, I am very capable of understanding the answers people have given. LOL. I just find it amazing that Trump does new dastardly deeds each day and there seems no way to stop him. We, the little people, seem to have no way to stop him except during the next election which is far away. So much more damage will be done by then.

It is shocking to realize how much 'restraint on the presidency' is based only on custom and assumption that most people want a functioning democracy.  Both of which have turned out to be empty.

I would seriously vote for a candidate for President or either chamber of Congress who promised to curtail the powers of the President.  The office's powers have expanded way beyond what the Framers intended, and Trump is just the next step on that ladder to authoritarianism.  We're lucky that he is so bad at his job.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2758 on: July 16, 2018, 09:36:06 AM »
...we'll see how the economy looks this time next year.
Good point.

With many voters' attention spans being what they are, how the economy looks in ~2 years and 3 months may be even more relevant to the thread title.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2759 on: July 16, 2018, 10:34:29 AM »
Trump just committed treason at the press conference in Helsinki.

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/16/live-trump-and-putin-meet-in-helsinkis-hall-of-mirrors/

 If you are reading this, you must get hold of your elected representatives in Congress and INSIST that they take action and not allow this to go unchecked. ACTION. Not talk. Not hemming and hawing. ACTION.

And if you think I am overreacting about Trump's remarks being treasonous, THE FORMER HEAD OF THE CIA AGREES WITH ME.

https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/1018885971104985093

Call your Congresspeople. This is not negotiable.






former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2760 on: July 16, 2018, 10:36:31 AM »
Trump has broken his oath to defend the constitution and laws of the USA.

I can only think that the "private discussion" with Putin was about a future Trump Tower Moscow.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2761 on: July 16, 2018, 10:44:14 AM »
Why do you think that blatant treason will suddenly start to matter now?  Trump still embodies everything his supporters love.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2762 on: July 16, 2018, 10:46:16 AM »
Trump just committed treason at the press conference in Helsinki.
To what specific high crime or misdemeanor or treasonous act do you refer?

Brennan may consider some of Trump's comments "imbecilic" but that falls short of treasonous.

Both Trump and Putin are politicians, and the adage about "How do you know a politician is lying?" applies to them as well as many other politicians.

Of perhaps more interest is what tangible actions - if any - ensue from the meeting.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2763 on: July 16, 2018, 10:48:02 AM »
Trump just committed treason at the press conference in Helsinki.
To what specific high crime or misdemeanor or treasonous act do you refer?

Brennan may consider some of Trump's comments "imbecilic" but that falls short of treasonous.

Both Trump and Putin are politicians, and the adage about "How do you know a politician is lying?" applies to them as well as many other politicians.

Of perhaps more interest is what tangible actions - if any - ensue from the meeting.

This is why it won't be stopped.


MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2764 on: July 16, 2018, 10:51:26 AM »
Trump just committed treason at the press conference in Helsinki.
To what specific high crime or misdemeanor or treasonous act do you refer?

Brennan may consider some of Trump's comments "imbecilic" but that falls short of treasonous.

Both Trump and Putin are politicians, and the adage about "How do you know a politician is lying?" applies to them as well as many other politicians.

Of perhaps more interest is what tangible actions - if any - ensue from the meeting.

This is why it won't be stopped.
Whatever "it" is.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2765 on: July 16, 2018, 11:09:54 AM »
Yeah, the Helsinki thing, wow.

Federal law enforcement and Intelligence have unambiguously identified crimes that were committed by Russian agents against the United States.

Our sitting President stated that Russia did not perpetrate this attack right in front of the Leader of the country that perpetrated them. He contra-dicted our security apparatus in front of the man who directed them. What politicians do matters, yes, but what our President says also matters.


nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2766 on: July 16, 2018, 11:23:41 AM »
Yeah, the Helsinki thing, wow.

Federal law enforcement and Intelligence have unambiguously identified crimes that were committed by Russian agents against the United States.

Our sitting President stated that Russia did not perpetrate this attack right in front of the Leader of the country that perpetrated them. He contra-dicted our security apparatus in front of the man who directed them. What politicians do matters, yes, but what our President says also matters.

what our politicians fail to do also matters.

In another episode of head-scratchingly bizarre statements, Trump claimed multiple times that his father was born in Germany and was an immigrant, despite the fact that Fred Trump was born in the US  and was never anything but a US citizen.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2767 on: July 16, 2018, 11:46:18 AM »
Here are the transcripts:

AP: Just now president Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded Russia did. My first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? My second question is would you now with the whole world watching tell president Putinówould you denounce what happened in 2016 and would you warn him to never do it again?

TRUMP: So let me just say we have two thoughts. We have groups that are wondering why the FBI never took the server. Why havenít they taken the server? Why was the FBI told to leave the office of the Democratic National Committee? Iíve been wondering that. Iíve been asking that for months and months and tweeting it out and calling it out on social media. Where is the server? I want to know, where is the server, and what is the server saying? With that being said, all I can do is ask the question, my people came to me, [director of national intelligence] Dan Coats came to me, and some others, they said, they think itís Russia. I have President Putin. He just said itís not Russia. I will say this. I donít see any reason why it would be, but I really do want to see the server, but I haveóI have confidence in both parties. I really believe that this will probably go on for a while, but I donít think it can go on without finding out what happened to the server. What happened to the servers of the Pakistani gentleman that worked on the DNC. Where are those servers? Theyíre missing. Where are they? What happened to Hillary Clintonís e-mails? 33,000 e-mails gone, just gone. I think in Russia they wouldnít be gone so easily. I think itís a disgrace we canít get Hillary Clintonís 33,000 e-mails. So I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. And what he did, is an incredible offer. He offered to have the people working on the case come and work with their investigators, with respect to the 12 people. I think thatís an incredible offer. Okay? Thank you.

I bolded some parts that make me question how this man is in charge of our national security.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2768 on: July 16, 2018, 11:52:13 AM »

TRUMP: [...] And what he did, is an incredible offer. He offered to have the people working on the case come and work with their investigators, with respect to the 12 people. I think thatís an incredible offer. Okay? Thank you.

Ha. If Mueller came down with a case of nerve gas poisoning, would the Trump loyalists blame it on Hillary?

"Yeah, so what about nerve gas? Where are the servers? Hillary! Hillary! Hillary! (Benghazi!)"

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2769 on: July 16, 2018, 12:02:50 PM »

TRUMP: So let me just say we have two thoughts. We have groups that are wondering why the FBI never took the server. Why havenít they taken the server? Why was the FBI told to leave the office of the Democratic National Committee? Iíve been wondering that. Iíve been asking that for months and months and tweeting it out and calling it out on social media. Where is the server? I want to know, where is the server, and what is the server saying? With that being said, all I can do is ask the question, my people came to me, [director of national intelligence] Dan Coats came to me, and some others, they said, they think itís Russia. I have President Putin. He just said itís not Russia. I will say this. I donít see any reason why it would be, but I really do want to see the server, but I haveóI have confidence in both parties. I really believe that this will probably go on for a while, but I donít think it can go on without finding out what happened to the server. What happened to the servers of the Pakistani gentleman that worked on the DNC. Where are those servers? Theyíre missing. Where are they? What happened to Hillary Clintonís e-mails? 33,000 e-mails gone, just gone. I think in Russia they wouldnít be gone so easily. I think itís a disgrace we canít get Hillary Clintonís 33,000 e-mails. So I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. And what he did, is an incredible offer. He offered to have the people working on the case come and work with their investigators, with respect to the 12 people. I think thatís an incredible offer. Okay? Thank you.


wait a second... let me see if I understand this correctly:
Putin offered to have his people join an investigation about whether Russia interfered with the 2016 election?  And Trump thinks this is 'an incredible offer'??

This is like the lead suspect in a murder investigation offering to joing the investigation against him, handling all the evidence, and the DA shouting "oh thank you, that's so helpful!"

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2770 on: July 16, 2018, 12:13:13 PM »
This is incredible. Surely the Republicans will come to their senses? 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2771 on: July 16, 2018, 12:19:23 PM »

He offered to have the people working on the case come and work with their investigators, with respect to the 12 people. I think thatís an incredible offer. Okay? Thank you.

We're living in upside down world now.  He's literally colluding with the Russians on the investigation into whether or not he's colluded with the Russians.

At this point, the only remaining question is whether the US President is just an idiot, or is an active Russian agent.  He's actively undermining the United States in order to advance Russian foreign policy objectives, but I suppose there's still a chance he's a doddering old fool rather than the most successful KGB spy in history.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2772 on: July 16, 2018, 12:31:20 PM »
This is incredible. Surely the Republicans will come to their senses?

Nope! At this point, Republicans who have been supporting Trump are a lost cause. We will have to rely on the nonvoters to save us.  Do you know people who haven't voted in the past?  Young people?  How about people who don't traditionally vote in midterms?  Start drumming up the importance of midterm voting in your immediate social circle.  Check voter registration rolls for your friends.

You'll be met with resistance and cries of "both parties are the same" or-typical of when Republicans have really no justification left for this president's behavior "all politicians lie-who cares?"  See above comments for some prime examples. These are the tactics of those who want low turnout, which only helps keep Trump in power.  Both parties are not the same.   Look at net neutrality voting records by party just to start. 

Another tactic I've seen is to greet messages about voting with a series of demands for wholesale changes to our voting systems, including abolishing the electoral college, instituting ranked choice voting, etc.  This is not the point.  FIRST, VOTE.  Then, organize to change the voting system if that motivates you.  But I'm sick of hearing about how our voting system needs to change from people who don't vote.  You think your nonvoting ass posting on reddit is going to somehow get the constitution amended? 

VOTE. That's not all we can do, but it starts there.


Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2773 on: July 16, 2018, 12:38:34 PM »
The only Republican who is speaking out so far is the one with terminal cancer.

U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ):

ďTodayís press conference in Helsinki was one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory. The damage inflicted by President Trumpís naivetť, egotism, false equivalence, and sympathy for autocrats is difficult to calculate. But it is clear that the summit in Helsinki was a tragic mistake.

ďPresident Trump proved not only unable, but unwilling to stand up to Putin. He and Putin seemed to be speaking from the same script as the president made a conscious choice to defend a tyrant against the fair questions of a free press, and to grant Putin an uncontested platform to spew propaganda and lies to the world.

ďIt is tempting to describe the press conference as a pathetic rout Ė as an illustration of the perils of under-preparation and inexperience. But these were not the errant tweets of a novice politician. These were the deliberate choices of a president who seems determined to realize his delusions of a warm relationship with Putinís regime without any regard for the true nature of his rule, his violent disregard for the sovereignty of his neighbors, his complicity in the slaughter of the Syrian people, his violation of international treaties, and his assault on democratic institutions throughout the world.

ďComing close on the heels of President Trumpís bombastic and erratic conduct towards our closest friends and allies in Brussels and Britain, todayís press conference marks a recent low point in the history of the American Presidency. That the president was attended in Helsinki by a team of competent and patriotic advisors makes his blunders and capitulations all the more painful and inexplicable.

ďNo prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we areóa republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad. American presidents must be the champions of that cause if it is to succeed. Americans are waiting and hoping for President Trump to embrace that sacred responsibility. One can only hope they are not waiting totally in vain.Ē

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2774 on: July 16, 2018, 12:39:22 PM »
Trump just committed treason at the press conference in Helsinki.
To what specific high crime or misdemeanor or treasonous act do you refer?

Brennan may consider some of Trump's comments "imbecilic" but that falls short of treasonous.

Both Trump and Putin are politicians, and the adage about "How do you know a politician is lying?" applies to them as well as many other politicians.

Of perhaps more interest is what tangible actions - if any - ensue from the meeting.

In U.S. federal law, treason is defined as "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."

This isn't about lying or one specific act. This is about undermining the United States and adhering to your enemies words, which in fact contradict factual findings by multiple intelligence agencies. Basically he is choosing the enemy over the US to dumb it down for you.

But like Kris said, that fact that some still refuse to acknowledge it, is the bigger problem. Anyone that voted for Trump voted for a traitor. Of course I understand that none of them give a shit at this point. 

« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:41:58 PM by MasterStache »

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2775 on: July 16, 2018, 12:59:49 PM »
Is Russia an actual enemy nation?

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2776 on: July 16, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »
In U.S. federal law, treason is defined as "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."

This isn't about lying or one specific act. This is about undermining the United States and adhering to your enemies words....
OK, thanks, this provides a debatable (in the best sense of the word) point, rather than a blanket "Trump is a traitor" comment.

But if we can believe the Washington Post, An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war . Nations with whom we are formally at peace, such as Russia, are not enemies.  Therefore Trump agreeing with Russia, even if idiotic, is not treasonous.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2777 on: July 16, 2018, 01:13:13 PM »
In U.S. federal law, treason is defined as "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."

This isn't about lying or one specific act. This is about undermining the United States and adhering to your enemies words....
OK, thanks, this provides a debatable (in the best sense of the word) point, rather than a blanket "Trump is a traitor" comment.

But if we can believe the Washington Post, An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war . Nations with whom we are formally at peace, such as Russia, are not enemies.  Therefore Trump agreeing with Russia, even if idiotic, is not treasonous.

That didnít happen.

And if it did, it wasnít that bad.

And if it was, thatís not a big deal.  (WE ARE HERE)

And if it is, thatís not my fault.

And if it was, I didnít mean it.

And if I didÖ

You deserved it.

It's a nice fiction to pretend that all Trump did was "agree" with Putin.  But what he's actually done is 1. refuse to implement sanctions voted on by Congress and signed (by him!) into law 2. undermined the credibility of our intelligence agencies in favor of the conclusions drawn by Russia.  It's important to note that to "agree" with Putin is to disagree with his own country's intelligence agencies 3. revealed Israeli intelligence to Russian operatives 4. openly ask Russia to break US election law to help his campaign and that's just what I could think of off the top of my head.

Maybe it's not technically treason.  But it's shitty, and it should be embarrassing to you if you voted for him.  I can't believe the same party who send 4 years chasing after Bill Clinton's sex life has nothing but a meh about this.  And we haven't even gotten to the part where he had unprotected sex with a porn star.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2778 on: July 16, 2018, 01:15:12 PM »
Hey-remember when Republicans were really mad about Obama supposedly going on an apology tour?  Good times.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2779 on: July 16, 2018, 01:22:25 PM »
In U.S. federal law, treason is defined as "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."

This isn't about lying or one specific act. This is about undermining the United States and adhering to your enemies words....
OK, thanks, this provides a debatable (in the best sense of the word) point, rather than a blanket "Trump is a traitor" comment.

But if we can believe the Washington Post, An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war . Nations with whom we are formally at peace, such as Russia, are not enemies.  Therefore Trump agreeing with Russia, even if idiotic, is not treasonous.

Neato.

By your (and the Washington Posts) definition then, Donald Trump could work with say, Somali terrorists in a plot to kill US citizens on US soil, and then to create a new state called 'Somalia II' in northern Texas . . . all without ever committing treason.  I like it when you narrow a definition to the point that it actually changes meaning from accepted usage.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2780 on: July 16, 2018, 01:25:20 PM »
Maybe it's not technically treason. 
Correct, so it undermines the credibility of anyone who, understanding this, would continue to say it is treason.

As you note, there are other, legitimate, charges one can make about Trump.

Until there is tangible, detrimental, effort on their or their families lives, Trump voters are not unreasonable if they pay short shrift to discussion about comments he makes about Russia.

For now, unemployment is down, taxes are lower, etc., so life is good.  How sustainable that is, and over what time frame, is open to speculation (and the answers will likely govern whether Trump gets re-elected in 2020 or not).

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2781 on: July 16, 2018, 01:27:11 PM »
Hey-remember when Republicans were really mad about Obama supposedly going on an apology tour?  Good times.

As an American who spends a lot of time abroad, I  think the next president - regardless of party - should go around to all of our allies and actually apologize for the last few years. A real apology tour.
It might be the only thing which saves the 7+ years we spent building allies and strategic partnerships throughout the world under a dozen different administrations.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2782 on: July 16, 2018, 01:33:04 PM »
By your (and the Washington Posts) definition then, Donald Trump could work with say, Somali terrorists in a plot to kill US citizens on US soil, and then to create a new state called 'Somalia II' in northern Texas . . . all without ever committing treason.  I like it when you narrow a definition to the point that it actually changes meaning from accepted usage.
I'm glad you like it when the actual meaning of the U.S. Constitution is used to determine legality or illegality - that does seem a good thing.  Note that the article was not made up by a mere Post reporter - you may read it to form your own judgment of the author and cited sources. 

After all, it would be bad to have a society in which one could be convicted of crime that is solely in the prosecutor's head.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2783 on: July 16, 2018, 01:38:52 PM »
Maybe it's not technically treason. 
Correct, so it undermines the credibility of anyone who, understanding this, would continue to say it is treason.

As you note, there are other, legitimate, charges one can make about Trump.

Until there is tangible, detrimental, effort on their or their families lives, Trump voters are not unreasonable if they pay short shrift to discussion about comments he makes about Russia.

For now, unemployment is down, taxes are lower, etc., so life is good.  How sustainable that is, and over what time frame, is open to speculation (and the answers will likely govern whether Trump gets re-elected in 2020 or not).

So Trump voters are as uninformed and unpatriotic as I suspected? Weird how when unemployment was down and taxes were the same plus or minus a few hundred bucks under Obama for the vast majority of income earners, life wasn't as good.

Working with a foreign power to break election laws is not treason, but it ain't legal. The press conference itself may not be treason, but don't forget that Paul Manafort has been indicted.  God-Trump is such a shitshow of epic proportions that you can momentarily forget that his campaign manager was indicted for crimes against the US.  And the porn star.  And the Russia deference.  And the nepotism.  And the bragging about sexual assault.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2784 on: July 16, 2018, 01:44:27 PM »
I looked it up, and enemy is defined very narrowly in the constitution, where have to be at war. We are not at war with Russia, but rather than being an ally, is considered a strategic adversary.
Looking at the laws it looks like he meets the criteria of "Seditious conspiracy", which only needs to be planned, and not carried out. Him asking Russia to hack into servers of Hillary Clinton who was Sec of State at the time is sufficient. Him now denying our own government intelligence about Russia hacking and instead siding with Russia adds to that. It's a 20 year sentence.

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, ß 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103Ė322, title XXXIII, ß 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

He also broke federal election laws "Foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election." Not just with the emails. But also there seems to be continuing quid pro quo with foreign powers and Trump that is extremely troubling.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:02:28 PM by partgypsy »

Fireball

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2785 on: July 16, 2018, 01:52:58 PM »
Thank goodness Putin "was extremely strong and powerful in his denial" about Russian influence in our elections today.  Meanwhile....

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-arrest/russian-woman-arrested-in-washington-accused-of-acting-as-russian-government-agent-idUSKBN1K62HZ

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2786 on: July 16, 2018, 01:55:00 PM »
By your (and the Washington Posts) definition then, Donald Trump could work with say, Somali terrorists in a plot to kill US citizens on US soil, and then to create a new state called 'Somalia II' in northern Texas . . . all without ever committing treason.  I like it when you narrow a definition to the point that it actually changes meaning from accepted usage.
I'm glad you like it when the actual meaning of the U.S. Constitution is used to determine legality or illegality - that does seem a good thing.  Note that the article was not made up by a mere Post reporter - you may read it to form your own judgment of the author and cited sources. 

After all, it would be bad to have a society in which one could be convicted of crime that is solely in the prosecutor's head.

Maybe this is where we're running into misunderstanding.

I don't think that Trump committed the crime of treason as defined by the US constitution.

He absolutely committed treason by common definition of the word though:

Treason: showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies -https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason
Treason: the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery. - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/treason?s=t
Treason: the crime of betraying a nation or a sovereign by acts considered dangerous to security
 - https://www.britannica.com/topic/treason
Treason:  The betrayal of allegiance toward one's own country, especially by committing hostile acts against it or aiding its enemies in committing such acts. - https://www.thefreedictionary.com/treason
Treason:  the action of betraying someone or something. - https://www.google.ca/search?q=define%3A+treason&rlz=1C1GGRV_enCA752CA753&oq=define%3A+treason&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i58.2264j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


(As a side note - Yeah, I agree.  It would be bad if you had a society where you could be convicted of a crime solely in the prosecutor's head.  Doing this would be a fundamentally unfair abuse of power.  It sure is in Guantanamo Bay.)

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2787 on: July 16, 2018, 01:56:11 PM »
So Trump voters are as uninformed and unpatriotic as I suspected?
Perhaps by your definition....

Quote
Weird how when unemployment was down and taxes were the same plus or minus a few hundred bucks under Obama for the vast majority of income earners, life wasn't as good.
According to Bureau of Labor Statistics Data, unemployment was 6.8% in Nov. 2008 and 7.7% in Nov. 2012.  It is currently 4.0%. 

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Working with a foreign power to break election laws is not treason, but it ain't legal.
And if Trump broke such laws there should be consequences.  So far Mueller hasn't indicated that, but the investigation continues.

Quote
The press conference itself may not be treason, but don't forget that Paul Manafort has been indicted.  God-Trump is such a shitshow of epic proportions that you can momentarily forget that his campaign manager was indicted for crimes against the US.
Yes, he has, primarily for actions with Ukraine that preceded his involvement with Trump's campaign.  Want to say Trump's judgment in hiring Manafort was poor?  If so, I agree.

Quote
And the porn star.  And the Russia deference.  And the nepotism.  And the bragging about sexual assault.
And the bad hair.  And the "ruddy" complexion.  And nominating a guy with a frat boy name.  The horror.

Much as leading Democrats supported Bill Clinton despite his affairs with an intern, etc., it's not a big surprise that leading Republicans support Trump despite his many faults.  Until a viable thrid party emerges, it seems plus Áa change, plus c'est la mÍme chose.  It's just a question of which ~half of the country is outraged and saying "but this is worse!"

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2788 on: July 16, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »
It was 4.6% in November 2016. I forget, who was president then?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2789 on: July 16, 2018, 01:59:47 PM »
This Helsinki meeting is pretty much what one would expect from Trump at this point...Occam's razor, etc. Though I'm skeptical that Trump managed to hold up his end of the conversation with Putin, given how full Trump's mouth was.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2790 on: July 16, 2018, 02:00:07 PM »
Maybe this is where we're running into misunderstanding.

I don't think that Trump committed the crime of treason as defined by the US constitution.

He absolutely committed treason by common definition of the word though:
That's a reasonable argument, and perhaps fit for election campaign rhetoric.

Just so the anti-Trump crowd doesn't get their hopes up for an impeachment based on "treason".

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2791 on: July 16, 2018, 02:01:03 PM »
It was 4.6% in November 2016. I forget, who was president then?
I forget too, but I'm pretty sure nobody who was allowed to run for another term. ;)

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2792 on: July 16, 2018, 02:04:06 PM »
Maybe this is where we're running into misunderstanding.

I don't think that Trump committed the crime of treason as defined by the US constitution.

He absolutely committed treason by common definition of the word though:
That's a reasonable argument, and perhaps fit for election campaign rhetoric.

Just so the anti-Trump crowd doesn't get their hopes up for an impeachment based on "treason".

Sure.  As long as we can both agree that Trump's behavior is treasonous but excepted from prosecution by legal technicality, it's all good.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2793 on: July 16, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
"Much as leading Democrats supported Bill Clinton despite his affairs with an intern, etc., it's not a big surprise that leading Republicans support Trump despite his many faults.  Until a viable thrid party emerges, it seems plus Áa change, plus c'est la mÍme chose.  It's just a question of which ~half of the country is outraged and saying "but this is worse!""

comparing the Bill Clinton scandal to what is going on with Trump administration, would only be comparable if Monica instead of being a lowly intern, was actually a Russian operative that the president was trading secrets with.

Can you imagine Obama having an unsupervised meeting with Putin, and then contradicting our own intelligence sources to agree with Putin? Regarding interference with our election process, in which people have already been indicted? This is really very serious and should superceed any kind of political loyalties.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:09:45 PM by partgypsy »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2794 on: July 16, 2018, 02:07:29 PM »
It was 4.6% in November 2016. I forget, who was president then?
I forget too, but I'm pretty sure nobody who was allowed to run for another term. ;)

I am sure that is why you jumped from 2012 to 2018. Sounds like an excuse one of my kids would give me. Trump was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. So do his supporters.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:20:56 PM by MasterStache »

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2795 on: July 16, 2018, 02:12:03 PM »
This reminds me of the debate around whether or not there was "collusion".  Legalyl speaking collusion is not a crime, whereas conspiracy is.  Ergo, the President and his supporters can correctly argue there was "NO COLLUSION", and in a legal sense they would be correct.  Relying on the common definition many believe collusion (e.g. secret cooperation between multiple people to cheat and deceive others)  has already been amply proven.

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2796 on: July 16, 2018, 02:18:45 PM »
This reminds me of the debate around whether or not there was "collusion".  Legalyl speaking collusion is not a crime, whereas conspiracy is.  Ergo, the President and his supporters can correctly argue there was "NO COLLUSION", and in a legal sense they would be correct.  Relying on the common definition many believe collusion (e.g. secret cooperation between multiple people to cheat and deceive others)  has already been amply proven.
This isn't actually a debate though, this is just the "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters." premise playing out. He hasn't and likely won't lose any supporters regardless of any evidence presented to them.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2797 on: July 16, 2018, 02:20:13 PM »
Regardless of common meanings, it seems wise to save outrage for something that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Getting a charge to stick Trump on some dumb technicality will yield better results than screaming to high heavens about whatever "technically not legal but totally wrong" thing he does next. Calling this latest thing treason instead of simply denouncing it weakens the overall argument against Trump. It builds apathy and at the same time energizes the base who are too pleased to stick it to the left that keeps attacking their good ol boy.

wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2798 on: July 16, 2018, 02:24:30 PM »
This reminds me of the debate around whether or not there was "collusion".  Legalyl speaking collusion is not a crime, whereas conspiracy is.  Ergo, the President and his supporters can correctly argue there was "NO COLLUSION", and in a legal sense they would be correct.  Relying on the common definition many believe collusion (e.g. secret cooperation between multiple people to cheat and deceive others)  has already been amply proven.
This isn't actually a debate though, this is just the "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters." premise playing out. He hasn't and likely won't lose any supporters regardless of any evidence presented to them.

And Mueller probably won't try to indict even if he does have criminal evidence b/c the ability to indict a sitting president is not legally settled.  And Trump won't be impeached (unless a truly unprecedented flip happens in the Senate in Nov).  So these debates about collusion, conspiracy, treason, etc., and the notion that somehow Mueller's investigation will get us out of this mess are kind of a waste of energy, IMO.   

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2799 on: July 16, 2018, 02:26:16 PM »
Regardless of common meanings, it seems wise to save outrage for something that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Getting a charge to stick Trump on some dumb technicality will yield better results than screaming to high heavens about whatever "technically not legal but totally wrong" thing he does next. Calling this latest thing treason instead of simply denouncing it weakens the overall argument against Trump. It builds apathy and at the same time energizes the base who are too pleased to stick it to the left that keeps attacking their good ol boy.
Depends on what your goal is though. If you actually think he could be convicted of a crime and put in prison, then what you are saying works. If your goal is simply to get him out of office ASAP, then you really just need to convince enough people to impeach him or go with what is likely the faster route of just not voting for him in 2020.