Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 373120 times)

DreamFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2400 on: June 27, 2018, 03:05:19 PM »
We are talking about...imprisoning them without due process.
Trump tweeted: ...When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about. 
Is it imprisonment or deportation that we are talking about?

Deportation, and it can't happen fast enough for all of these illegal aliens.  Trump is right.  The invasion should not have happened in the first place - they shouldn't have even made it into this country.  Now we are supporting them with taxpayer dollars.

the_fixer

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2401 on: June 27, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »
Interesting read from the NYT

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/family-detention-immigration.html

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bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2402 on: June 27, 2018, 03:22:00 PM »
Okay, with the change in the Supreme Court seat, I predict that women who live in the "red" states will very soon have to drive to a "blue" state to get a legal abortion.

Yep, agreed. It'll remain legal albeit impossible to get one because of onerous restrictions on providers.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2403 on: June 27, 2018, 03:23:34 PM »
We are talking about...imprisoning them without due process.
Trump tweeted: ...When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about. 
Is it imprisonment or deportation that we are talking about?

Deportation, and it can't happen fast enough for all of these illegal aliens.  Trump is right.  The invasion should not have happened in the first place - they shouldn't have even made it into this country.  Now we are supporting them with taxpayer dollars.

Why shouldn't people fleeing persecution and mortal peril seek a new home in the United States?
Seems to me that's a strong motif throughout our national fabric.

golden1

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2404 on: June 27, 2018, 03:53:02 PM »
Now that a post Roe vs. Wade is a likely reality, I wonder how it will actually play out.   

How are the non abortion states going to prevent women from getting abortions?  Are they going to require women who enter the state to get a pregnancy test before and after leaving the state?  How are they going to determine if a woman has an abortion vs. a miscarriage?  If a woman is caught trying to have an abortion and is not successful, will they restrain them until birth?  If a woman is caught having an abortion, would she receive the death penalty for premeditated first degree murder?

I understand that they will likely address this from a supply side issue in terms of just making all providers and clinics illegal, but there are many ways to obtain abortion medication on the internet.  Back alley abortions will become "in the privacy of your own home" abortions.

Will the country be able to tolerate abortion states vs non-abortion states or will it prompt a general strike or even secession? 

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2405 on: June 27, 2018, 03:55:36 PM »

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If Liberal groups are to continue to flood the borders for the sake of negative PR, something has to give.

So let them all in, let them stay together, do not detain or track them and this applies:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Yeah, what could go wrong.

Let's look at what the Supreme Court thinks.

I have quoted relevant sections from several cases below, and a brief internet search for the case name will return the full court notes for your perusal. This information should be public knowledge, yet (inexcusably) some people insist that the Constitution does not apply to non-citizens. There is an academic article mentioned just below the Supreme Court cases that expounds further on this topic.

*****************************

US Supreme Court:
Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886)
The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens. It says: Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law. These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws.

US Supreme Court:
Zadvydas v. Davis,
533 U.S. 678 (2001)
Once an alien enters the country, the legal circumstance changes, for the Due Process Clause applies to all persons within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent.

US Supreme Court:
Wong Wing v. United States
163 U.S. 228 (1896)
These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws." Applying this reasoning to the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to the protection guaranteed by those amendments, and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

US Supreme Court:
Plyler v. Doe (No. 80-1538)
457 U.S. 202
(a) The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a "person" in any ordinary sense of that term. This Court's prior cases recognizing that illegal aliens are "persons" protected by the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which Clauses do not include the phrase "within its jurisdiction," cannot be distinguished on the asserted ground that persons who have entered the country illegally are not "within the jurisdiction" of a State even if they are present within its boundaries and subject to its laws. Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory. Pp. 210-216.

*****************************

For even more information, please see this academic article authored by The Honorable Karen Nelson Moore, Judge, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, which may be found in full here.
http://www.nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-88-3-Moore.pdf

Note the section below specifically:

Quote
First, as James Madisons writings on the Bill of Rights appear to have anticipated, aliens have rights under the Constitution. This is, in itself, remarkable and an important defining feature of our national identity: That this is a country that has long recognized such rights, and does so to this day, is something to be celebrated.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2406 on: June 27, 2018, 04:10:02 PM »
Now that a post Roe vs. Wade is a likely reality, I wonder how it will actually play out.   

How are the non abortion states going to prevent women from getting abortions?  Are they going to require women who enter the state to get a pregnancy test before and after leaving the state?  How are they going to determine if a woman has an abortion vs. a miscarriage?  If a woman is caught trying to have an abortion and is not successful, will they restrain them until birth?  If a woman is caught having an abortion, would she receive the death penalty for premeditated first degree murder?

I understand that they will likely address this from a supply side issue in terms of just making all providers and clinics illegal, but there are many ways to obtain abortion medication on the internet.  Back alley abortions will become "in the privacy of your own home" abortions.

Will the country be able to tolerate abortion states vs non-abortion states or will it prompt a general strike or even secession?

There's no doubt that, once Roe is nullified, evangelicals won't be happy with restricting it in their own state.

An amendment wouldn't work because they can't get enough House votes or enough states to ratify one. They'd have to get an activist judiciary in the SC to do it for them.

jrhampt

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2407 on: June 27, 2018, 06:03:17 PM »
Okay, with the change in the Supreme Court seat, I predict that women who live in the "red" states will very soon have to drive to a "blue" state to get a legal abortion.

Some of them already have to do this.  There were several states with only one abortion provider at the beginning of 2018,

Gin1984

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2408 on: June 27, 2018, 06:26:28 PM »
Okay, with the change in the Supreme Court seat, I predict that women who live in the "red" states will very soon have to drive to a "blue" state to get a legal abortion.
We already do.  The GOP has already culled many if not most abortion clinics from red states.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2409 on: June 27, 2018, 08:11:29 PM »
If you have a 16yo girlfriend and the age of consent is 18 in state A where you are, but you cross to state B where it's 14 and hit a hotel with her, that's a federal crime. So if any state legislates against abortion and it's held up by the Supreme Court, then federal Congress could make it a federal crime to cross a state line for the purpose of having an abortion.


They'll have to be quick with the appointments of the new Justice(s?) If the Dems get a Senate majority this year, then they can do what the Reps did in Obama's last year and just refuse to have confirmation hearings for anyone they don't like. The precedent was set, after all. But of course a Dem-majority Senate might not pass a federal law about crossing state lines, etc.


So the various dysfunctionalities cancel each-other out, preventing anyone from doing anything really good or anything really bad. Thus my refrain: America. LOL.

Rural

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2410 on: June 27, 2018, 09:20:10 PM »
Now that a post Roe vs. Wade is a likely reality, I wonder how it will actually play out.   

How are the non abortion states going to prevent women from getting abortions?  Are they going to require women who enter the state to get a pregnancy test before and after leaving the state?  How are they going to determine if a woman has an abortion vs. a miscarriage?  If a woman is caught trying to have an abortion and is not successful, will they restrain them until birth?  If a woman is caught having an abortion, would she receive the death penalty for premeditated first degree murder?

I understand that they will likely address this from a supply side issue in terms of just making all providers and clinics illegal, but there are many ways to obtain abortion medication on the internet.  Back alley abortions will become "in the privacy of your own home" abortions.

Will the country be able to tolerate abortion states vs non-abortion states or will it prompt a general strike or even secession?


We had exactly this scenario before Roe. What happened was that the rich crossed state (or country) lines for safe abortions and the poor resorted to quacks or coat hangers and sometimes survived and sometimes died. Whether the woman was prosecuted when she had to seek medical attention for the aftereffects of a self-induced or back-alley abortion attempt depended on the state. I have some hope that medications will make it better, but they won't help the teenager who doesn't realize until it's been ten weeks.


I remember, and I had thought perhaps I didn't have to anymore.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2411 on: June 27, 2018, 11:30:47 PM »
Around a third of the government positions that need to be confirmed by the Senate aren't filled. Like 205 of 645 or something. I mean, there's been no ambassador to South Korea through the whole "we will crush you! no wait, let's be friends!" thing with DPRK. 18 months. The Senate's not blocking it, there are just no nominations.

And then when they do appoint people, they resign or get chucked out a short time later. Rex Tillerson, where are you?

Plus there's the mid-terms coming up, and if the Dems get a majority they might just return the favour the Reps did them under Obama and refuse to even have the confirmation hearings, stick with having 8 (or 7?) justices.

So hey, who knows if they'll even be able to appoint a new justice?


America. LOL.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 11:35:41 PM by Kyle Schuant »

Bro-mero

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2412 on: June 27, 2018, 11:35:07 PM »
Around a third of the government positions that need to be confirmed by the Senate aren't filled. Like 205 of 645 or something. I mean, there's been no ambassador to South Korea through the whole "we will crush you! no wait, let's be friends!" thing with DPRK. 18 months.

And then when they do appoint people, they resign or get chucked out a short time later. Rex Tillerson, where are you?

Plus there's the mid-terms coming up, and if the Dems get a majority they might just return the favour the Reps did them under Obama and refuse to even have the confirmation hearings, stick with having 8 (or 7?) justices.

So hey, who knows if they'll even be able to appoint a new justice?


America. LOL.

Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.

FrugalToque

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2413 on: June 28, 2018, 04:56:05 AM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

I see.  That was getting lost (to me) with all the various comments and quotes.
The desire for absolute power and the reality of having it are very different htings indeed.

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters is, I don't see anyone saying things like:

"If Trump tries that shit, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.."

How come the 2nd amendment people aren't making those "jokes" like they do about other things?  Here you have someone actually threatening to take away basic civil rights, and not a peep in opposition from them.

Toque.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 07:12:37 AM by FrugalToque »

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2414 on: June 28, 2018, 05:08:59 AM »
Around a third of the government positions that need to be confirmed by the Senate aren't filled. Like 205 of 645 or something. I mean, there's been no ambassador to South Korea through the whole "we will crush you! no wait, let's be friends!" thing with DPRK. 18 months.

And then when they do appoint people, they resign or get chucked out a short time later. Rex Tillerson, where are you?

Plus there's the mid-terms coming up, and if the Dems get a majority they might just return the favour the Reps did them under Obama and refuse to even have the confirmation hearings, stick with having 8 (or 7?) justices.

So hey, who knows if they'll even be able to appoint a new justice?


America. LOL.

Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.


The Democrats would have to pick up Senate seats in Arizona and Nevada, and not lose any of the vulnerable Democratic Senate seats, McCaskill in Missouri, Heitkamp in North Dakota, Manchin in West Virginia, Tester in Wyoming, etc.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2415 on: June 28, 2018, 05:13:12 AM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

I see.  That was getting lost (to me) with all the various comments and quotes.
The desire for absolute power and the reality of having it are very different htings indeed.

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters is, I don't see anyone saying things like:
s
"If Trump tries that shit, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.."

How come the 2nd amendment people aren't making those "jokes" like the do about other things?  Here you someone actually threatening to take away basic civil rights, and not a peep in opposition from them.

Toque.

Deportation, and it can't happen fast enough for all of these illegal aliens. Trump is right.  The invasion should not have happened in the first place - they shouldn't have even made it into this country.  Now we are supporting them with taxpayer dollars.

Short answer, they won't take up arms because they agree with the human right's abuses and taking away civil liberties from people they deem inferior to themselves (aka immigrants).

For many as well, it's because he has an "R" in front of his name.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2416 on: June 28, 2018, 05:32:34 AM »
Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.
If the Democrats can narrow the margin down to 51-50 or 51-49, that would itself be something of a victory, because it would require a near-unanimous Republican endorsement of any new justice, and that would have an effect on the viable picks.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2417 on: June 28, 2018, 05:46:47 AM »

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters is, I don't see anyone saying things like:
s
"If Trump tries that shit, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.."

How come the 2nd amendment people aren't making those "jokes" like the do about other things?  Here you someone actually threatening to take away basic civil rights, and not a peep in opposition from them.

Toque.
If I understand your question, Toque, you are essentially asking why those who are the most rabid supporters of unfettered gun ownership (i.e. the self-described "2nd amendment defenders") are not equally infuriated that others are being denied their human and civic rights.  Is that correct?

As a partial answer, many of these individuals can draw a hard line between native-born US citizens and 'everyone else'. The US has a long and troubling past with the concept of who gets to call themselves "American". By this logic (and note this is the very defense being used by AG Sessions) those who are not naturalized citizens aren't protected by 'our' laws and therefore they can justify current treatment as 'their fault' because they crossed 'illegally'.  It's a thin argument to make for so many reasons, in part because many are seeking refuge and non-violently surrendered to the authorities once they were on US soil. On top of this there has been a vitriolic war on immigrants over the last decade+, and many genuinely believe that newcomers are stealing their jobs, bankrupting our social services, causing spikes in crime and draining government coffers, despite all evidence to the contrary. As with many, many times in history immigrants have become scapegoats for individual woes and misfortune. It's "us-vs-them" and "they" are "breaking the law" and the cause of social ills.

At the same time, many of those gun-owners see the right to bare arms as completely independent of these other issues. Many are single-issue voters, driven by distrust of their government and this belief that 'freedom' cannot have individual limits, despite even the most conservative judges (e.g. Scalia) painstakingly writing this was not so. Quite frankly they see big guns as both a symbol of machismo and just plain fun to shoot. I'm talking here about assault-style weapons and resistance to even the most widely supported measures like back-ground checks. To put it simply, they don't raise a fuss as long as no one is suggesting limitations on their firearms, particularly when it involves people who are "not Americans".


nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2418 on: June 28, 2018, 05:52:58 AM »
Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.
If the Democrats can narrow the margin down to 51-50 or 51-49, that would itself be something of a victory, because it would require a near-unanimous Republican endorsement of any new justice, and that would have an effect on the viable picks.

IMO the GOP will push a nomination to SCOTUS through before the midterms - no way they are going to let their majorities go to waste. Dems will try to delay, but there's over 4 months. McConnell will use every tactic he can to exhaust the inevitable filibusters and bring a vote to the floor.

The only real question to me is how much they are willing to infuriate the Dems base right before the midterms. If they were smart they might nominate someone just slightly to the right of Kennedy, thus ensuring a conservative court while limiting blowback and midterm losses. If they can hold on their majorities they will likely get to replace another, potentially more liberal judge before 2020.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2419 on: June 28, 2018, 05:57:07 AM »
Deportation, and it can't happen fast enough for all of these illegal aliens.  Trump is right.  The invasion should not have happened in the first place - they shouldn't have even made it into this country.  Now we are supporting them with taxpayer dollars.
So when you get accused of being an illegal alien, and you can't prove your citizenship because there's no due process for people who are accused of being illegal immigrants, and you get deported to Guatemala, will Trump still be right, and you're just an egg we had to break to make an omelette?

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2420 on: June 28, 2018, 06:35:32 AM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2421 on: June 28, 2018, 06:55:22 AM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

If that is actually your worry, you have a lot more to fear from American anti-vaxxers.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2422 on: June 28, 2018, 07:02:54 AM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

I'm worried about the lack of innoculations occurring from the native-born population. Let's not forget that candidate DJT flirted with the anti-vaxxers, giving them a platform and spreading doubt about the risks and the science behind them.  Measles and rhubella outbreaks are popping up throughout the US, and it has nothing to do with immigration.
I'm in agreement with you that individuals ought to be vaccinated for deadly communicable diseases.  In fact our current legal immigration system *does* require thorough medical records and/or a medical exam.  Unfortunately, when you make it difficult or impossible for most to immigrate here, and those individuals are often fear for their lives back home, the incentive is for them to enter any way they can.  Mortality trumps legality every time.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2423 on: June 28, 2018, 07:23:44 AM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

If that is actually your worry, you have a lot more to fear from American anti-vaxxers.
Quite.  It's as though none of the kids of those anti-vaxxers are ever going to go abroad themselves, or ever have a friend or relative or classmate who goes abroad. 


I mean, really?

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2424 on: June 28, 2018, 07:25:54 AM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

If that is actually your worry, you have a lot more to fear from American anti-vaxxers.

I do worry about the anit vaxers as well. They put everyone's lives in jeopardy especially young children and older people. Very selfish and ignorant. If they had ever seen whole villages wiped out by disease, they might think twice. They have never 'seen' for themselves how devastating diseases can be.

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2425 on: June 28, 2018, 07:50:17 AM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

I see.  That was getting lost (to me) with all the various comments and quotes.
The desire for absolute power and the reality of having it are very different htings indeed.

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters is, I don't see anyone saying things like:

"If Trump tries that shit, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.."

How come the 2nd amendment people aren't making those "jokes" like they do about other things?  Here you have someone actually threatening to take away basic civil rights, and not a peep in opposition from them.

Toque.

It's mainly because there's not really a viable threat to other constitutional rights that people understand and care about.  The fourth and fifth amendment have been eviscerated, and nobody really cares.  You might say that's just because they don't care about those rights because they don't think they need that protection the way poor people do, but they also didn't make any threats when Congress actually passed a law regulating political speech.  I think people just can understand the 2nd in that they either have a right to own guns or not, and they have seen attempts to take it away, successful and otherwise, and that registers in a way that incremental degradation of other constitutional rights.

With respect to the border situation specifically and Trump's comments, I think what people have in mind is that people get caught with the equivalent of one leg over a fence, border patrol can just "tell" whether they are illegal or not, and instead of just sending them back to the other side of the border, we bring them in and house them for months while we give them a chance to assert an asylum claim.  That may sort of be true in some situations, but they are not thinking about the fact that if you just dump people over the border when you catch them, you are going to end up ejecting american citizens and the only way to prevent that is to have a process.   

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2426 on: June 28, 2018, 08:11:31 AM »
Deportation, and it can't happen fast enough for all of these illegal aliens.  Trump is right.  The invasion should not have happened in the first place - they shouldn't have even made it into this country.  Now we are supporting them with taxpayer dollars.
So when you get accused of being an illegal alien, and you can't prove your citizenship because there's no due process for people who are accused of being illegal immigrants, and you get deported to Guatemala, will Trump still be right, and you're just an egg we had to break to make an omelette?
In order to deport you need travel documents (passport) or an agreement with the country you are trying to deport to to accept the deportee.  Countries will not accept random people being dumped on them.  Due process is a Constitutional requirement and a practical reality requirement. 

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2427 on: June 28, 2018, 08:12:20 AM »

They are being detained, but they are also being processed, albeit slowly. That alone separates what ICE is doing from other tyrannical governments that imprison citizens for years with no hope council or a definitive judgement. Here groups like the ACLU are challenging the legality of these policies in court, and immigration lawyers (albeit far too few and way overworked) are representing individual cases.  Neither of these things happen with true unfettered tyranny.

I am in no way supportive of what is being done, but its hyperbole to equate the current policies with that of many totalitarian regimes.

Trump tweeted: We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came.

That's what we're talking about.  If he wants to deny anyone due process, you should treat that like everyone is denied due process.  That's not hyperbole.  That's justice.

This^^^

We aren't discussing what is currently happening. We are discussing what Trump wants to happen per his own words.

I see.  That was getting lost (to me) with all the various comments and quotes.
The desire for absolute power and the reality of having it are very different htings indeed.

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters is, I don't see anyone saying things like:

"If Trump tries that shit, 100 million Americans with 400 million firearms and 2 trillion rounds of ammo will calm things down, no problem.."

How come the 2nd amendment people aren't making those "jokes" like they do about other things?  Here you have someone actually threatening to take away basic civil rights, and not a peep in opposition from them.

Toque.

It's mainly because there's not really a viable threat to other constitutional rights that people understand and care about.  The fourth and fifth amendment have been eviscerated, and nobody really cares.  You might say that's just because they don't care about those rights because they don't think they need that protection the way poor people do, but they also didn't make any threats when Congress actually passed a law regulating political speech.  I think people just can understand the 2nd in that they either have a right to own guns or not, and they have seen attempts to take it away, successful and otherwise, and that registers in a way that incremental degradation of other constitutional rights.

With respect to the border situation specifically and Trump's comments, I think what people have in mind is that people get caught with the equivalent of one leg over a fence, border patrol can just "tell" whether they are illegal or not, and instead of just sending them back to the other side of the border, we bring them in and house them for months while we give them a chance to assert an asylum claim.  That may sort of be true in some situations, but they are not thinking about the fact that if you just dump people over the border when you catch them, you are going to end up ejecting american citizens and the only way to prevent that is to have a process.   

Seems more likely, from direct evidence, that folks think incorrectly that Constitutional rights only apply to citizens. I mean:

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If

Could be willful ignorance or extreme prejudice. Take your pick!

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2428 on: June 28, 2018, 08:30:07 AM »
Seems more likely, from direct evidence, that folks think incorrectly that Constitutional rights only apply to citizens. I mean:

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If

Could be willful ignorance or extreme prejudice.
Or it could be the difference between "in the World" vs. "within U.S. borders".  Of course, that distinction presumes there is a definable U.S. border.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2429 on: June 28, 2018, 08:31:58 AM »
Seems more likely, from direct evidence, that folks think incorrectly that Constitutional rights only apply to citizens. I mean:

I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens. If

Could be willful ignorance or extreme prejudice.
Or it could be the difference between "in the World" vs. "within U.S. borders".  Of course, that distinction presumes there is a definable U.S. border.

The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.

Bro-mero

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2430 on: June 28, 2018, 09:50:18 AM »
Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.
If the Democrats can narrow the margin down to 51-50 or 51-49, that would itself be something of a victory, because it would require a near-unanimous Republican endorsement of any new justice, and that would have an effect on the viable picks.

IMO the GOP will push a nomination to SCOTUS through before the midterms - no way they are going to let their majorities go to waste. Dems will try to delay, but there's over 4 months. McConnell will use every tactic he can to exhaust the inevitable filibusters and bring a vote to the floor.

The only real question to me is how much they are willing to infuriate the Dems base right before the midterms. If they were smart they might nominate someone just slightly to the right of Kennedy, thus ensuring a conservative court while limiting blowback and midterm losses. If they can hold on their majorities they will likely get to replace another, potentially more liberal judge before 2020.

Agreed. McConnell will do everything he can to push through a new SCJ before the midterms, and Democrats have little power to stop him.

The only scenario I can think of that Democrats could stop a confirmation would be if McCain abstains from voting for health reasons, which would results in a 49-49 split. If Trump tries to put in a judge who wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, the Democrats would need to hold all of their Senators and get a pro-choice Republican like Collins-ME or Murkowski-AK to vote with them.

Its a long shot, but Democrats dont really have any other options

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2431 on: June 28, 2018, 11:40:55 AM »
The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.
Possibly.  Would need ematicic to divulge background to know for sure.

Whether or not foreign citizens wishing to visit the U.S. had status to bring suit has been an issue.  Whether open borders would be dangerous or not is a separate topic.

dude

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2432 on: June 28, 2018, 11:49:16 AM »
Around a third of the government positions that need to be confirmed by the Senate aren't filled. Like 205 of 645 or something. I mean, there's been no ambassador to South Korea through the whole "we will crush you! no wait, let's be friends!" thing with DPRK. 18 months.

And then when they do appoint people, they resign or get chucked out a short time later. Rex Tillerson, where are you?

Plus there's the mid-terms coming up, and if the Dems get a majority they might just return the favour the Reps did them under Obama and refuse to even have the confirmation hearings, stick with having 8 (or 7?) justices.

So hey, who knows if they'll even be able to appoint a new justice?


America. LOL.

Its very unlikely that Democrats flip the Senate this fall, there are very few opportunities to flip seats in their favor, and many opportunities to lose seats.


The Democrats would have to pick up Senate seats in Arizona and Nevada, and not lose any of the vulnerable Democratic Senate seats, McCaskill in Missouri, Heitkamp in North Dakota, Manchin in West Virginia, Tester in Wyoming, etc.

Manchin voted for Gorsuch.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2433 on: June 28, 2018, 11:53:59 AM »
The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.
Possibly.  Would need ematicic to divulge background to know for sure.

Whether or not foreign citizens wishing to visit the U.S. had status to bring suit has been an issue.  Whether open borders would be dangerous or not is a separate topic.

Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2434 on: June 28, 2018, 11:55:36 AM »
George Will, the long time conservative commentator, is urging people to vote Democrat to restore checks and balances against Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/vote-against-the-gop-this-november/2018/06/22/a6378306-7575-11e8-b4b7-308400242c2e_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b1e057adc012

one outcome of the Trump presidency appears to be a tangible splintering of the Republican party against itself. To be clear, Will is not saying to vote for Democrat platform positions, but that he believes the democratic institutions fundamental to American democracy are so under attack that it is more important to hobble Trump than vote based on platform and policy. Let that sink in for a minute.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2435 on: June 28, 2018, 11:56:21 AM »
Gotta love it that the party which has lost 6 of the last 7 popular votes for President will nominate 4 SCOTUS justices this century (presumably, come this fall).

Democracy!

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2436 on: June 28, 2018, 11:58:09 AM »
Gotta love it that the party which has lost 6 of the last 7 popular votes for President will nominate 4 SCOTUS justices this century (presumably, come this fall).

Democracy!

Hell, potentially three in one presidency term unless Ginsburg holds out for a few more years.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2437 on: June 28, 2018, 12:01:34 PM »
The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.
Possibly.  Would need ematicic to divulge background to know for sure.

Whether or not foreign citizens wishing to visit the U.S. had status to bring suit has been an issue.  Whether open borders would be dangerous or not is a separate topic.

Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
You'll have to take that up with ematicic to determine if that's what "everyone in the World" implied.  That's how I read it, but apparently others read it is "everyone in the World who happens to be inside the U.S. border."

StarBright

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2438 on: June 28, 2018, 12:02:27 PM »
George Will, the long time conservative commentator, is urging people to vote Democrat to restore checks and balances against Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/vote-against-the-gop-this-november/2018/06/22/a6378306-7575-11e8-b4b7-308400242c2e_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b1e057adc012

one outcome of the Trump presidency appears to be a tangible splintering of the Republican party against itself. To be clear, Will is not saying to vote for Democrat platform positions, but that he believes the democratic institutions fundamental to American democracy are so under attack that it is more important to hobble Trump than vote based on platform and policy. Let that sink in for a minute.

I'm hit or miss on Will, but calling Stephen Miller the "Savonarola of Santa Monica High School"  gave me the smile I needed for the day. Thanks!

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2439 on: June 28, 2018, 12:27:55 PM »
Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
I don't live in New York and thus don't follow its politics closely, so when Cynthia Nixon and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez want to "abolish ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)", what do they mean?

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2440 on: June 28, 2018, 12:41:27 PM »
Gotta love it that the party which has lost 6 of the last 7 popular votes for President will nominate 4 SCOTUS justices this century (presumably, come this fall).

Democracy!

There are no popular votes for president. 

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2441 on: June 28, 2018, 12:43:06 PM »
Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
I don't live in New York and thus don't follow its politics closely, so when Cynthia Nixon and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez want to "abolish ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)", what do they mean?

I'm not from there, either. My guess is they are trying to make the assertion that we as a country were better off before the major reorganization of immigration and customs that happened after the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and created ICE in 2003.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2442 on: June 28, 2018, 12:45:06 PM »
One of my fears is that the illegal aliens will bring disease due to the fact that they may not have had childhood inoculations against diseases we have seen eradicated in the USA.  Seems if they came in legally they would have to provide some kind of health records showing what shots they have had and maybe they are required to get before entering the USA.

If that is actually your worry, you have a lot more to fear from American anti-vaxxers.

We have foreigners legally entering our airports from international flights by the thousands every day, the vast majority of whom have provided zilch in the way of health records.  By the way (fun fact!), these visitors are the source of many of our illegal aliens, who are the result of visa overstays and not illegal border crossings.  Um, build that wall?  Around JFK and LAX? 

I think that the ship has sailed on that worry, if that provides you any comfort. 

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2443 on: June 28, 2018, 12:47:36 PM »
The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.
Possibly.  Would need ematicic to divulge background to know for sure.

Whether or not foreign citizens wishing to visit the U.S. had status to bring suit has been an issue.  Whether open borders would be dangerous or not is a separate topic.

Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
You'll have to take that up with ematicic to determine if that's what "everyone in the World" implied.  That's how I read it, but apparently others read it is "everyone in the World who happens to be inside the U.S. border."

It was stated in direct connection with claiming liberals flood the US borders and the discussion about Constitutional rights and their application to immigrants. I highly doubt he was throwing in a curve ball by talking about Russian citizens and their border etc. The context was pretty clear. No sense in trying to be obtuse about it.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2444 on: June 28, 2018, 12:52:05 PM »
The presumption behind that statement is within US borders, otherwise there's no "dangerous scenario" for the current citizens.
Possibly.  Would need ematicic to divulge background to know for sure.

Whether or not foreign citizens wishing to visit the U.S. had status to bring suit has been an issue.  Whether open borders would be dangerous or not is a separate topic.

Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
You'll have to take that up with ematicic to determine if that's what "everyone in the World" implied.  That's how I read it, but apparently others read it is "everyone in the World who happens to be inside the U.S. border."

Inside the U.S. border is the entire topic of discussion.  I have yet to see a single person from any political affiliation talk about...oh, let's say ICE going after Peruvian immigrants in Mexico.  It's an irrelevant distraction and patently obvious what the intent was.

As a United States citizen, the Constitution doesn't apply to you outside of the country, either.  Go try flexing your first amendment rights in Dubai or North Korea and see what happens.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 12:54:01 PM by JLee »

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2445 on: June 28, 2018, 12:52:22 PM »
You'll have to take that up with ematicic to determine if that's what "everyone in the World" implied.  That's how I read it, but apparently others read it is "everyone in the World who happens to be inside the U.S. border."
It was stated in direct connection with claiming liberals flood the US borders and the discussion about Constitutional rights and their application to immigrants. I highly doubt he was throwing in a curve ball by talking about Russian citizens and their border etc. The context was pretty clear. No sense in trying to be obtuse about it.
Speaking of obtuse, I will grant you that nobody has been talking about Russian citizens and their border, while simultaneously having no idea why that entered the discussion.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2446 on: June 28, 2018, 12:56:04 PM »
I have yet to see a single person from any political affiliation talk about...oh, let's say ICE going after Peruvian immigrants in Mexico.  It's an irrelevant distraction and patently obvious what the intent was.
Similar to MasterStache's Russian comment, I'll happily grant you that Peruvian immigrants in Mexico have nothing to do with this discussion, while simultaneously having no idea why they would.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2447 on: June 28, 2018, 12:57:59 PM »
So now we're acting like we don't know what an analogy is? Well played.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2448 on: June 28, 2018, 12:58:30 PM »
I have yet to see a single person from any political affiliation talk about...oh, let's say ICE going after Peruvian immigrants in Mexico.  It's an irrelevant distraction and patently obvious what the intent was.
Similar to MasterStache's Russian comment, I'll happily grant you that Peruvian immigrants in Mexico have nothing to do with this discussion, while simultaneously having no idea why they would.

If that's the case, it should be trivial for you to understand how the phrase "I think applying the United States Constitution to everyone in the World would create a dangerous scenario for the current citizens" means "within the USA" because otherwise, it would have nothing to do with this discussion (and you should simultaneously also have no idea why it would).

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2449 on: June 28, 2018, 12:58:44 PM »
Literally the only time I see people bring up "open borders" is when conservatives accuse liberals of wanting them.  It's a fabrication intended to distract from rational discussion.
I don't live in New York and thus don't follow its politics closely, so when Cynthia Nixon and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez want to "abolish ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)", what do they mean?
I'm not from there, either. My guess is they are trying to make the assertion that we as a country were better off before the major reorganization of immigration and customs that happened after the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and created ICE in 2003.
That's certainly possible.  Would be nice if the two candidates had some explanation beyond the sound bite "abolish ICE".