Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 372667 times)

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8699
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2200 on: June 23, 2018, 05:41:27 PM »
So the entire reason you have a problem with the Time cover is that it can be criticized?
No.  My criticism of the Time cover is that it is reminiscent of Dan Rather's "not factual but true" claim.  Didn't like that then, and think Time (as they now admit) could have done better now.

I suspect - well, more than suspect: just see various news feeds - that many others will use this to further the "anti-Trump media continues to use fake news" meme.  In that sense, it was an own-goal.  As in the World Cup, once an own-goal happens it can't be undone.  But it can be overcome if one doesn't get sucked into an "ain't it awful" frame of mind and works harder to get things right instead.

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2201 on: June 23, 2018, 06:39:19 PM »
So the entire reason you have a problem with the Time cover is that it can be criticized?
No.  My criticism of the Time cover is that it is reminiscent of Dan Rather's "not factual but true" claim.  Didn't like that then, and think Time (as they now admit) could have done better now.

I suspect - well, more than suspect: just see various news feeds - that many others will use this to further the "anti-Trump media continues to use fake news" meme.  In that sense, it was an own-goal.  As in the World Cup, once an own-goal happens it can't be undone.  But it can be overcome if one doesn't get sucked into an "ain't it awful" frame of mind and works harder to get things right instead.

Ah, see, I agree that Time should make every reasonable effort to ensure that their stories are as accurate as possible.  I just also think that we should not take these criticism too seriously to avoid giving the impression that they have more substance to them than they do.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8699
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2202 on: June 23, 2018, 06:40:21 PM »
Ah, see, I agree that Time should make every reasonable effort to ensure that their stories are as accurate as possible.  I just also think that we should not take these criticism too seriously to avoid giving the impression that they have more substance to them than they do.
Works for me. :)

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2203 on: June 23, 2018, 08:42:56 PM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.

Most of that 75% are sheeple who have been manipulated by the mainstream media without even realizing it.

I assume this means that you're not one of the sheeple?

Do you believe that children were separated from their parents at the border? Do you believe it's a good policy?

If you do think it's good policy, what do you think about Trump backing down in the face of overwhelming criticism from, among others, a host of Republican politicians? Are they sheeple too? Is Trump a sheeple for backing down?

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1791
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2204 on: June 23, 2018, 08:56:37 PM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.

Most of that 75% are sheeple who have been manipulated by the mainstream media without even realizing it.

I assume this means that you're not one of the sheeple?

Do you believe that children were separated from their parents at the border? Do you believe it's a good policy?

If you do think it's good policy, what do you think about Trump backing down in the face of overwhelming criticism from, among others, a host of Republican politicians? Are they sheeple too? Is Trump a sheeple for backing down?

I gotta admit, it's pretty funny when mainstream media uses a slightly 'Fox/Alex Jones' image (and admit to it), then the lunatic fringe jumps all over it.  Like suddenly they are worried that folks are too sensitive and might be manipulated?

Seriously, their ship sailed long ago and I have left them way far behind.  Tell me something new.

nick663

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
  • Location: midwest
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2205 on: June 23, 2018, 10:50:49 PM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.

Most of that 75% are sheeple who have been manipulated by the mainstream media without even realizing it.

I assume this means that you're not one of the sheeple?

Do you believe that children were separated from their parents at the border? Do you believe it's a good policy?

If you do think it's good policy, what do you think about Trump backing down in the face of overwhelming criticism from, among others, a host of Republican politicians? Are they sheeple too? Is Trump a sheeple for backing down?

I gotta admit, it's pretty funny when mainstream media uses a slightly 'Fox/Alex Jones' image (and admit to it), then the lunatic fringe jumps all over it.  Like suddenly they are worried that folks are too sensitive and might be manipulated?

Seriously, their ship sailed long ago and I have left them way far behind.  Tell me something new.
Not to mention that the people on their "side" have been running up the "alternative fact" score for the last 18 months.  Neither side should be doing it but serious pot calling the kettle black moment here.

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2206 on: June 24, 2018, 12:40:34 AM »
Eh... if we're going to call out the Alex Jones crowd for being easily manipulated by fake news, it's vital that we demand transparency and truthfulness from more mainstream sources. I'm not a fan of Times for many reasons but when you're one of the biggest and most respected news media sources out there, and you have a particular political bent, it really doesn't look good if you're caught doing something that could very, very easily be interpreted as intentional propaganda--the same kind of stuff that Alex Jones puts out there.

Put it like this... if you believe that the Times is a propaganda outlet, does this recent photo scandal strengthen or weaken that belief?

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3645
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2207 on: June 24, 2018, 01:41:56 AM »
Eh... if we're going to call out the Alex Jones crowd for being easily manipulated by fake news, it's vital that we demand transparency and truthfulness from more mainstream sources. I'm not a fan of Times for many reasons but when you're one of the biggest and most respected news media sources out there, and you have a particular political bent, it really doesn't look good if you're caught doing something that could very, very easily be interpreted as intentional propaganda--the same kind of stuff that Alex Jones puts out there.

Put it like this... if you believe that the Times is a propaganda outlet, does this recent photo scandal strengthen or weaken that belief?
"Time" (Time Magazine) is not the same as "the Times" (the London or New York Times).   I know no current fact-checking scandals against either of the Times.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2208 on: June 24, 2018, 11:30:53 AM »
Honestly the people who support Trump are in a self-reinforcing confirmation bias cycle, and any bad thing about him at this point they will not examine objectively, but use it to confirm their own beliefs.
Negative news about things Trump actually says, does, or enacts: "fake news, biased media" Even if the news is fact-based (reporting on the separation of children from parents at the border for the past 2 months. And the news clarifying that this is not an Obama-era standard policy buts implemented as part of Session's "zero tolerance policy" to "deter" immigration in a particularly horrible, unethical manner.  Same thing about all the incredible swamp-like behavior of his administration or displays of incompetence and lack of knowledge about their jobs. I guess that's just nit-picking.
 
That the UN condemns this policy as inhumane and possible human rights abuse http://thehill.com/policy/international/un-treaties/392722-un-human-rights-head-trump-policy-separating-migrant,    Oh, those other countries are just jealous of Trump because he's a strong leader.
When even other Republicans, former first wives and presidents condemn his actions. Hmm, I guess they are all part of a "deep state?" When other Republicans call him out on his actions, now they are now labeled "never Trumpers" or even traitors.   

I think that the only thing that will affect these people, as I saw when a fellow employee who defended W for years and now regrets it, was when they were finally showed to be duped. No one likes feeling like an idiot when you believe someone's lies. But it will happen only when people feel the consequences. In the case of the fellow employee, it was when a) W said the war was over, but it was not over. b) we were promised that there was strong intel to justify the invasion that could not be shared but "trust us".  In fact the information to justify it was known to even be possibly fabricated and faulty, and Powell's arm had to be twisted even to present that intel to the UN council. Thousands of US troops died in that war, and tens of thousands were injured, some severely with injuries of head trauma and loss of limbs. Tell those troops "whoops". 


In this case, it will probably be multiple things, but Trump like a con man will be out of there before hand, and I'm sure someone else will be blamed. When jobs don't come back like he promised. When the economy goes into a recession, in part from his deregulations of business and false heating up of the economy (the tariffs don't help). When people realize they are paying for tax cuts for the wealthy by cuts to their social security and medicare. When they need health insurance and they can't afford it. When they see that their own kids do not get the same quality of public education they did when they were children, due to mismanagement and defunding of the public school system. That's just off the top of my head. 

Roadrunner53

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2209 on: June 24, 2018, 11:47:23 AM »
partgypsy so true.

Nothing he says is truth. He was going to give us a better, lower cost ACA and now it is in tatters and will implode soon due to not requiring younger people to participate.

He has no loyalty but expects people to be loyal to him. He basically has thrown his personal lawyer Cohen under the bus and says he didn't do much business with him anyway.

Anyone that has anything to do with Donny gets the curse put on them or as I call it 'got slimed' and sooner or later they end up in some kind of trouble/fired.

He is evil, ignorant and childish with his name calling. What intelligent leader of a country does that? What is with the stupid handshakes where he won't let go like he is an octopus? What world leader insults the leaders of other countries?

Something is very, very wrong with this fake President.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1705
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2210 on: June 24, 2018, 05:47:40 PM »
Honestly the people who support Trump are in a self-reinforcing confirmation bias cycle, and any bad thing about him at this point they will not examine objectively, but use it to confirm their own beliefs.
Negative news about things Trump actually says, does, or enacts: "fake news, biased media" Even if the news is fact-based (reporting on the separation of children from parents at the border for the past 2 months. And the news clarifying that this is not an Obama-era standard policy buts implemented as part of Session's "zero tolerance policy" to "deter" immigration in a particularly horrible, unethical manner.  Same thing about all the incredible swamp-like behavior of his administration or displays of incompetence and lack of knowledge about their jobs. I guess that's just nit-picking.
 
That the UN condemns this policy as inhumane and possible human rights abuse http://thehill.com/policy/international/un-treaties/392722-un-human-rights-head-trump-policy-separating-migrant,    Oh, those other countries are just jealous of Trump because he's a strong leader.
When even other Republicans, former first wives and presidents condemn his actions. Hmm, I guess they are all part of a "deep state?" When other Republicans call him out on his actions, now they are now labeled "never Trumpers" or even traitors.   

I think that the only thing that will affect these people, as I saw when a fellow employee who defended W for years and now regrets it, was when they were finally showed to be duped. No one likes feeling like an idiot when you believe someone's lies. But it will happen only when people feel the consequences. In the case of the fellow employee, it was when a) W said the war was over, but it was not over. b) we were promised that there was strong intel to justify the invasion that could not be shared but "trust us".  In fact the information to justify it was known to even be possibly fabricated and faulty, and Powell's arm had to be twisted even to present that intel to the UN council. Thousands of US troops died in that war, and tens of thousands were injured, some severely with injuries of head trauma and loss of limbs. Tell those troops "whoops". 


In this case, it will probably be multiple things, but Trump like a con man will be out of there before hand, and I'm sure someone else will be blamed. When jobs don't come back like he promised. When the economy goes into a recession, in part from his deregulations of business and false heating up of the economy (the tariffs don't help). When people realize they are paying for tax cuts for the wealthy by cuts to their social security and medicare. When they need health insurance and they can't afford it. When they see that their own kids do not get the same quality of public education they did when they were children, due to mismanagement and defunding of the public school system. That's just off the top of my head.

I will begrudgingly admit I voted for and defended Bush during his tenure. I now firmly believe he was one of the worst Presidents in history.

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2211 on: June 25, 2018, 06:28:56 AM »
Incredibly, Bush/Cheney turns out to have been a comfortably-above-median 21st century Republican ticket, with Romney/Ryan somehow representing the intellectual and moral high point of modern GOP presidential campaigns. And Bush II will almost certainly reach 2024 as the greatest Republican president of the previous 32 years. Faint praise, perhaps, but I was certain at the time of his exiting office that he'd be remembered as the worst president in modern history. He had to wait less than a decade for that dubious accolade to be swept away from him.

Jrr85

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2212 on: June 25, 2018, 07:32:08 AM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.

Most of that 75% are sheeple who have been manipulated by the mainstream media without even realizing it.

I assume this means that you're not one of the sheeple?

Do you believe that children were separated from their parents at the border? Do you believe it's a good policy?

If you do think it's good policy, what do you think about Trump backing down in the face of overwhelming criticism from, among others, a host of Republican politicians? Are they sheeple too? Is Trump a sheeple for backing down?

To be fair, Trump isn't really backing down.  Unless something has changed, he is not going back to non-border enforcement for anybody accompanying minors.  He is ordering that families be kept together, in what is probably contrary to a 9th circuit order.  As a practical matter, I'm not sure what kind of facilities are available to keep families together in.  But I suspect they will make a go of it until somebody challenges them with a lawsuit, and then it will be interesting to see whether the courts provide an avenue for children to be detained with parents, or whether they give Trump a little bit of cover to go back to putting accompanied minors without relatives in the U.S. back into the HHS custody.   

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2213 on: June 25, 2018, 07:45:22 AM »
Claudius Dufius says send back with no process.  This guy is in charge of seeing laws are faithfully executed.  I don't even know where to begin on how many levels wrong this is.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8699
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2214 on: June 25, 2018, 08:19:48 AM »
To be fair, Trump isn't really backing down.  Unless something has changed, he is not going back to non-border enforcement for anybody accompanying minors.  He is ordering that families be kept together, in what is probably contrary to a 9th circuit order.  As a practical matter, I'm not sure what kind of facilities are available to keep families together in.  But I suspect they will make a go of it until somebody challenges them with a lawsuit, and then it will be interesting to see whether the courts provide an avenue for children to be detained with parents, or whether they give Trump a little bit of cover to go back to putting accompanied minors without relatives in the U.S. back into the HHS custody.   
Good points.  As Obama's DHS secretary, Jeh Johnson, says, "This is not an easy problem....".  See Obama DHS Sec. Jeh Johnson interview.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2215 on: June 25, 2018, 08:56:46 AM »
Honestly the people who support Trump are in a self-reinforcing confirmation bias cycle, and any bad thing about him at this point they will not examine objectively, but use it to confirm their own beliefs.
Negative news about things Trump actually says, does, or enacts: "fake news, biased media" Even if the news is fact-based (reporting on the separation of children from parents at the border for the past 2 months. And the news clarifying that this is not an Obama-era standard policy buts implemented as part of Session's "zero tolerance policy" to "deter" immigration in a particularly horrible, unethical manner.  Same thing about all the incredible swamp-like behavior of his administration or displays of incompetence and lack of knowledge about their jobs. I guess that's just nit-picking.
 
That the UN condemns this policy as inhumane and possible human rights abuse http://thehill.com/policy/international/un-treaties/392722-un-human-rights-head-trump-policy-separating-migrant,    Oh, those other countries are just jealous of Trump because he's a strong leader.
When even other Republicans, former first wives and presidents condemn his actions. Hmm, I guess they are all part of a "deep state?" When other Republicans call him out on his actions, now they are now labeled "never Trumpers" or even traitors.   

I think that the only thing that will affect these people, as I saw when a fellow employee who defended W for years and now regrets it, was when they were finally showed to be duped. No one likes feeling like an idiot when you believe someone's lies. But it will happen only when people feel the consequences. In the case of the fellow employee, it was when a) W said the war was over, but it was not over. b) we were promised that there was strong intel to justify the invasion that could not be shared but "trust us".  In fact the information to justify it was known to even be possibly fabricated and faulty, and Powell's arm had to be twisted even to present that intel to the UN council. Thousands of US troops died in that war, and tens of thousands were injured, some severely with injuries of head trauma and loss of limbs. Tell those troops "whoops". 


In this case, it will probably be multiple things, but Trump like a con man will be out of there before hand, and I'm sure someone else will be blamed. When jobs don't come back like he promised. When the economy goes into a recession, in part from his deregulations of business and false heating up of the economy (the tariffs don't help). When people realize they are paying for tax cuts for the wealthy by cuts to their social security and medicare. When they need health insurance and they can't afford it. When they see that their own kids do not get the same quality of public education they did when they were children, due to mismanagement and defunding of the public school system. That's just off the top of my head.

I will begrudgingly admit I voted for and defended Bush during his tenure. I now firmly believe he was one of the worst Presidents in history.

I can top that.  My dad voted for W, but only THE SECOND TIME.  In other words, he didn't like him the first time and was enraged by the Supreme Court decision in Bush v Gore, but considered him a worthy vote AFTER the debacle of Iraq.  But then very quickly Dad changed his mind about W and then he proceeded to rant constantly about how W was the worst president of his lifetime.

Same thing with Trump. Voted for him (for unclear reasons) and now is having fits wanting to see him impeached, and constantly says he would take W (formerly Worst President Ever) over Trump in a hot second.  Which, no kidding. I never in a million years would have voted for W and I'm feeling nostalgic for those years now.

I just don't get it.  Dad's judgement is so terrible that I have gently suggested to him that perhaps he needs to consider voting third party from now on.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9396
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2217 on: June 25, 2018, 09:40:28 AM »
So how does this help to achieve MADA?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-harley-davidson-tariffs/harley-davidson-to-move-some-production-out-of-u-s-to-avoid-eu-tariffs-idUKKBN1JL1B1

I quite honestly -- and I mean this in all sincerity -- think that most #MAGA types *think* they care about Trump making the economy better and bringing manufacturing back to the US. But in reality: 1) they don't seem to understand the larger issues of how manufacturing moved away from the US in the first place, and in my experience, don't care to learn; 2) they are frankly much more interested in feel-good (and meaningless) "victory lap" rhetoric (build the wall, zero-tolerance for immigrants, "Make America Great Again," liberal tears, etc.) than they are in any policies that would actually strengthen America or its economy.

So, show a Trumper this article, and they'll just sneer and say "Fake news." A few years from now, when Trump's tariffs have provoked a full-on trade war, and his horrible economic "policies" slide us into recession, they'll look to Alex Jones or Fox or Breitbart to tell them who to blame -- and spoiler alert, it won't be Trump. When the US is no longer the world's main superpower, they'll scoff and say, "Well, at least we aren't SOCIALISTS!"

It's depressing as hell.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2218 on: June 25, 2018, 10:09:25 AM »
Claudius Dufius says send back with no process.  This guy is in charge of seeing laws are faithfully executed.  I don't even know where to begin on how many levels wrong this is.

This is important. He is literally proposing removing due process for those who should be allowed due process under the constitution. WTF?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/us/politics/trump-immigration-judges-due-process.html?comments


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2219 on: June 25, 2018, 10:25:55 AM »
Claudius Dufius says send back with no process.  This guy is in charge of seeing laws are faithfully executed.  I don't even know where to begin on how many levels wrong this is.

This is important. He is literally proposing removing due process for those who should be allowed due process under the constitution. WTF?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/us/politics/trump-immigration-judges-due-process.html?comments

Yup. And his supporters, who see themselves as the most patriotic of all Americans, have absolutely no problem with this.


ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2220 on: June 25, 2018, 10:33:44 AM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!

 According to research done by Glenn Beck and his team, the paper trail from Pueblo Sin Fronteras leads back to a group called CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project. CARA encompass two legal groups, the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. and the American Immigration Council. Guess who’s funding them? … none other than radical leftist billionaire: George Soros.

 WHAT IS CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project?

 According to CARA’s website it is a volunteer-built and volunteer-managed site. The site was built to make it easy for the volunteer community to get involved with the CARA Pro Bono Project.

 The volunteers of the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, the American Immigration Council, the Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services, and the American Immigration Lawyers Association, are collectively known as CARA. They joined forces in response to Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) significant expansion of its family detention capacity.

 In addition to the organizations listed on CARA’s website is the reason for their existence:

“The opening of the “South Texas Family Residential Center” in Dilley, Texas – with an initial capacity of 480 beds and the potential to hold 2,400 individuals – and the detention of families at the “Karnes Residential Center” in Karnes City – with a current capacity of 532 beds and plans to double the number – reflect the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to the flawed deterrence policy it began in June 2014 with the opening of a temporary family detention center in Artesia, New Mexico.”

Isn’t that nice? They reflected “the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to flawed policy”.

Now, let’s move on.

 How are CARA, Dilley, Texas and George Soros connected? That would be through Alex Mensing, a so called “on-the-ground coordinator for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention.

 ALEX MENSING, Pueblo Sin Fronteras AND THE SOROS CONNECTION

 So one of the Pueblo Sin Fronteras (people without borders) group’s main organizers and loud mouths seems to be a young, white American named Alex Mensing. Mensing works for immigration justice, writes and does ‘odd jobs’ like work for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project. That’s right!

 According to Alex Mensing’s LinkedIn profile, he works to support Immigration Justice. He lists the CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project, and ‘on-the-ground coordinator’ as part of his “odd jobs”. He also lists that he’s based in Dilley, Texas.

 So Alex Mensing works for CARA in Dilley, Texas and is an on-the ground coordinator in Mexico for the Pueblo Sin Fronteras and the immigration caravan? What’s up with that?

 According to the NY Times, Alex Mensing, is a “project coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras”.

So, the funny thing about connections and money trails they usually lead you to the source, especially a wealthy source like globalist George Soros.

 George Soros is an known atheist. He has been for many years. So why would Soros be supporting a Catholic organization? He doesn’t support religion or Catholics. He does however, support the cause or the movement of open borders and illegal immigration. Soros is about destruction. His purpose is to create chaos just like with #BlackLivesMatter.

 George Soros’ Open Society has written checks to support CARA since 2009 according to the tax forms found by Glenn Beck and his team.



 Soros has given over half a million to support illegal immigration in the past. However, since the immigration debate heated up in 2015, Soros has stepped up his game. In 2015, Soros through ‘Open Society’ gave the Catholic Legal Immigration Network $970,000 and over that same year, the American Immigration Council $350,000.

 Suddenlty you can see the connection from the money trail. Soros donates millions to Catholic Legal Immigration Network and the American Immigration Council, both organizations are part of CARA. Alex Mensing works for CARA in Texas, and coincidently does ‘odd jobs’ like being an ‘on-the-ground’ coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras, the group who supports the illegal immigration caravan.

 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

Scortius

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2221 on: June 25, 2018, 10:40:55 AM »
Let us remember again that this was the guy who entered the conversation by stating up front that he was unbiased and able to discuss both sides of an argument.

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2222 on: June 25, 2018, 10:43:47 AM »
Let us remember again that this was the guy who entered the conversation by stating up front that he was unbiased and able to discuss both sides of an argument.

Nice deflection! Sad you do not consider the groups financing the Convoys to be an interesting dynamic. If you are so small minded that "It's The President's fault" is all you want to read, you should not really be using the word "unbiased".

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2223 on: June 25, 2018, 10:47:58 AM »
Well, one thing you can say about Ematicic: He's the perfect illustration of the Trump base's inability to think logically or critically about this stuff. Not that we didn't have enough examples out "in the wild."

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2224 on: June 25, 2018, 10:49:44 AM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/
[snip .....]
 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

I suspect this is a bit different than your claim of preferring the BBC, a few posts back.

This article also included a thoroughly debunked meme about how Soros apparently wants to bring down America by funding black hate groups.

If this is what you are taking as being a good source of information, you should seriously consider being more discriminating in your news sources. The actual non-profit (Pueblo sin fronteras) appears to be a very small operation... and really only provides humanitarian aid to those fleeing violence, etc.

As the saying goes, I'd rather  have a neighbor who walked across a desert to get to America than an American who wouldn't walk across the street to help a foreigner.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2225 on: June 25, 2018, 10:52:11 AM »
Hahaha, Huckabee Sanders and her entourage were told to leave a restaurant in Virginia because she works for the POTUS!
Speaking of things that probably engender more support for Trump than the doer intended....

MDM is right on this. Seeing a person perceived to be picked on arbitrarily induces am empathy response and increases support. The NYT had a long article on this over the weekend (which missed the mark in a few ways, but is a discussion for another place). It is a difficult balance to strike between legitimately calling out outrageous behavior and pushing for better policy.   

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2226 on: June 25, 2018, 10:56:23 AM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/
[snip .....]
 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

I suspect this is a bit different than your claim of preferring the BBC, a few posts back.

This article also included a thoroughly debunked meme about how Soros apparently wants to bring down America by funding black hate groups.

If this is what you are taking as being a good source of information, you should seriously consider being more discriminating in your news sources. The actual non-profit (Pueblo sin fronteras) appears to be a very small operation... and really only provides humanitarian aid to those fleeing violence, etc.

As the saying goes, I'd rather  have a neighbor who walked across a desert to get to America than an American who wouldn't walk across the street to help a foreigner.


I did not say I only looked at BBC for news, so no. No different.

So you are saying Soros did not help fund the Migrant Convoy?
Are you also arguing that all future convoys should be allowed to enter also?



partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2227 on: June 25, 2018, 10:57:13 AM »
you had me at "According to research done by Glenn Beck and his team" rotfl

Actually, many many things that are happening now in the Trump administration can be answered simply by the motto: "follow the money" Devos and private schools. EPA Scott Pruitt (since he has taken his position of head of EPA, has had many closed door meetings with some of the largest polluters. Trump received money from GEO for his campaign, which has now been picked to build new prison and detention centers in Texas.

Not to even get into the Russia debate, of having a sitting President who is tainted with at minimum, pay to play with an enemy state, Russian.

Trump's true constituents: the ultra rich, himself and his family. Anyone who believes otherwise has been conned. Honestly? 90% of people who are for Trump, Trump wouldn't shake their hand and in private probably makes fun of them. That's the quality dude you are defending. 
 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:00:58 AM by partgypsy »

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2228 on: June 25, 2018, 11:06:12 AM »
Well, one thing you can say about Ematicic: He's the perfect illustration of the Trump base's inability to think logically or critically about this stuff. Not that we didn't have enough examples out "in the wild."

The migrations are annual, and cyclic. They are well funded. It is a fair and reasonable consideration. These migrants plan for this annual migration, and those that encourage and fund said migration lead them on this treacherous journey. This has been going on for about a decade and every time they reach the border, it is both a procedural and political fiasco. Even the previous President struggled with these convoys and did not allow everyone in, and to stay.

Now thinking critically, since it is so cyclic, perhaps more of the funding groups allocations should be aimed at changing GLOBAL policy.

I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:08:19 AM by ematicic »

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2229 on: June 25, 2018, 11:08:58 AM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/
[snip .....]
 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

I suspect this is a bit different than your claim of preferring the BBC, a few posts back.

This article also included a thoroughly debunked meme about how Soros apparently wants to bring down America by funding black hate groups.

If this is what you are taking as being a good source of information, you should seriously consider being more discriminating in your news sources. The actual non-profit (Pueblo sin fronteras) appears to be a very small operation... and really only provides humanitarian aid to those fleeing violence, etc.

As the saying goes, I'd rather  have a neighbor who walked across a desert to get to America than an American who wouldn't walk across the street to help a foreigner.


I did not say I only looked at BBC for news, so no. No different.

So you are saying Soros did not help fund the Migrant Convoy?
Are you also arguing that all future convoys should be allowed to enter also?
I think that accepting refugees from violence is the moral thing to do, whether they come from Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia, or Antarctica. Does that mean that we just open the borders carte blanche? No. Again, absolutely nobody in a position of power or in this discussion is pushing for that position. Nobody. It is a straw man argument to argue or imply otherwise.

I believe that it does not matter if Soros had funded organizations that are a degree or two removed. That simply does not matter. Soros is a popular punching bag for the far right wing,much as the Kochs are on the other side. Simply being associated with them financially (choose your degrees of separation) does not mean that something is good or bad (and the Kochs have made substantial contributions to the Arts, for example). You should be ashamed to have posted something so obviously incorrect and inflammatory.

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2230 on: June 25, 2018, 11:10:52 AM »
you had me at "According to research done by Glenn Beck and his team" rotfl

Actually, many many things that are happening now in the Trump administration can be answered simply by the motto: "follow the money" Devos and private schools. EPA Scott Pruitt (since he has taken his position of head of EPA, has had many closed door meetings with some of the largest polluters. Trump received money from GEO for his campaign, which has now been picked to build new prison and detention centers in Texas.

Not to even get into the Russia debate, of having a sitting President who is tainted with at minimum, pay to play with an enemy state, Russian.

Trump's true constituents: the ultra rich, himself and his family. Anyone who believes otherwise has been conned. Honestly? 90% of people who are for Trump, Trump wouldn't shake their hand and in private probably makes fun of them. That's the quality dude you are defending.


Again, nice deflection. Which part of the article is fake news? These groups don't actually fund the convoy? Of that the funding is irrelevant and the US needs to allow everyone in? Or instead of immigration reform, we are just going to jump to something more juicy like Russia!

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2231 on: June 25, 2018, 11:15:17 AM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy


ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2232 on: June 25, 2018, 11:44:03 AM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

Taking Immigrants in is good, taking in all immigrants is not. There needs to be a balance. I know what a Red Herring is but I NEVER said taking some immigrants is a terrible burden. I should be able to take a stance that the borders should be controlled without it turning into NO IMMIGRANTS. We are both aware that it cannot be all or none.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2233 on: June 25, 2018, 11:45:27 AM »
I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

Link to the post where someone in this thread wrote that? Thanks.

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2234 on: June 25, 2018, 11:46:30 AM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/
[snip .....]
 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

I suspect this is a bit different than your claim of preferring the BBC, a few posts back.

This article also included a thoroughly debunked meme about how Soros apparently wants to bring down America by funding black hate groups.

If this is what you are taking as being a good source of information, you should seriously consider being more discriminating in your news sources. The actual non-profit (Pueblo sin fronteras) appears to be a very small operation... and really only provides humanitarian aid to those fleeing violence, etc.

As the saying goes, I'd rather  have a neighbor who walked across a desert to get to America than an American who wouldn't walk across the street to help a foreigner.


I did not say I only looked at BBC for news, so no. No different.

So you are saying Soros did not help fund the Migrant Convoy?
Are you also arguing that all future convoys should be allowed to enter also?
I think that accepting refugees from violence is the moral thing to do, whether they come from Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia, or Antarctica. Does that mean that we just open the borders carte blanche? No. Again, absolutely nobody in a position of power or in this discussion is pushing for that position. Nobody. It is a straw man argument to argue or imply otherwise.

I believe that it does not matter if Soros had funded organizations that are a degree or two removed. That simply does not matter. Soros is a popular punching bag for the far right wing,much as the Kochs are on the other side. Simply being associated with them financially (choose your degrees of separation) does not mean that something is good or bad (and the Kochs have made substantial contributions to the Arts, for example). You should be ashamed to have posted something so obviously incorrect and inflammatory.

I am not ashamed. I am sorry it inflamed you so badly. Go back and talk about the first Lady's attire then because inflammatory remarks are only ok based on the target. LMAO..

ematicic

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Virginia
  • Money Enthusiast
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2235 on: June 25, 2018, 11:48:08 AM »
I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

Link to the post where someone in this thread wrote that? Thanks.

Well if you are agreeing with me that the President has to turn away certain immigrants, than I guess we see eye to eye. Cool.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2236 on: June 25, 2018, 11:49:05 AM »
I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

Link to the post where someone in this thread wrote that? Thanks.

Well if you are agreeing with me that the President has to turn away certain immigrants, than I guess we see eye to eye. Cool.

Can you link to the post where someone in this thread wrote the bolded above? Thanks.

Jrr85

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2237 on: June 25, 2018, 11:56:16 AM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

I don't think most people are particularly opposed to immigration of educated people.  Maybe to the extent they are concerned about future terrorism, they care more about country of origin and religion than education.  But I think generally, when people are talking about curbing illegal immigration, they are generally saying illegal immigration and meaning specifically low skill illegal immigration over the southern border.  So Studies that look at immigration generally won't sway them.  They'll just say, "Think about how much better it would look with just the legal and high skill/education immigration and without all the illegal and low skill/education immigration from the South."


Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2238 on: June 25, 2018, 12:05:19 PM »
Well, one thing you can say about Ematicic: He's the perfect illustration of the Trump base's inability to think logically or critically about this stuff. Not that we didn't have enough examples out "in the wild."

The migrations are annual, and cyclic. They are well funded. It is a fair and reasonable consideration. These migrants plan for this annual migration, and those that encourage and fund said migration lead them on this treacherous journey. This has been going on for about a decade and every time they reach the border, it is both a procedural and political fiasco. Even the previous President struggled with these convoys and did not allow everyone in, and to stay.

Now thinking critically, since it is so cyclic, perhaps more of the funding groups allocations should be aimed at changing GLOBAL policy.

I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

But wait, I thought the only alternative to Trump's solution was open borders?

As for the Joe for America article, I never trust anyone who uses ALL CAPS that much. You asked someone to specify which part of the article was inaccurate, how about this:

Quote
Irineo Mujica, a Mexican American activist and director of Pueblo Sin Fronteras said he never intended to bum-rush the group over the border. In fact, he said, many of the migrants hoping to reach the border planned to ask for asylum — not sneak over illegally.

Yeah, right? (wink, wink)

If "yeah right" is enough of an argument to dismiss a claim and confirm that it is a lie, you might have a bias.

One more thing, in the future, please designate quotes as such. It looks like the words in your post were your own.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2239 on: June 25, 2018, 12:08:18 PM »
I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

Link to the post where someone in this thread wrote that? Thanks.

Well if you are agreeing with me that the President has to turn away certain immigrants, than I guess we see eye to eye. Cool.

I think I speak for everyone here, no one sees eye to eye with you on this topic. Anyone who disagrees, please correct me. There are some very intelligent people who happen to fall on the same side of the argument as you but they've done a much better job of articulating their stance.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2240 on: June 25, 2018, 12:18:57 PM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

I don't think most people are particularly opposed to immigration of educated people.  Maybe to the extent they are concerned about future terrorism, they care more about country of origin and religion than education.  But I think generally, when people are talking about curbing illegal immigration, they are generally saying illegal immigration and meaning specifically low skill illegal immigration over the southern border.  So Studies that look at immigration generally won't sway them.  They'll just say, "Think about how much better it would look with just the legal and high skill/education immigration and without all the illegal and low skill/education immigration from the South."

Right. But unfortunately, studies and articles that show lower-skilled immigrants are necessary to our economy won't sway them, either.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/15/news/economy/california-farmer-workers-immigration/index.html

The thing is, if our government were really serious about curbing illegal immigration, they would start imposing meaningful punishments on the people who hire them. But they don't. So...it's easy to conclude that they'd rather keep the specter of brown people taking away (insert your preferred boogeyman here: our freedoms, our tax money, our jobs, our security...) from us so that the GOP can keep using the fear and anger in perpetuity.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 12:25:16 PM by Kris »

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2241 on: June 25, 2018, 12:36:29 PM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

I don't think most people are particularly opposed to immigration of educated people.  Maybe to the extent they are concerned about future terrorism, they care more about country of origin and religion than education.  But I think generally, when people are talking about curbing illegal immigration, they are generally saying illegal immigration and meaning specifically low skill illegal immigration over the southern border.  So Studies that look at immigration generally won't sway them.  They'll just say, "Think about how much better it would look with just the legal and high skill/education immigration and without all the illegal and low skill/education immigration from the South."

Right. But unfortunately, studies and articles that show lower-skilled immigrants are necessary to our economy won't sway them, either.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/15/news/economy/california-farmer-workers-immigration/index.html

The thing is, if our government were really serious about curbing illegal immigration, they would start imposing meaningful punishments on the people who hire them. But they don't. So...it's easy to conclude that they'd rather keep the specter of brown people taking away (insert your preferred boogeyman here: our freedoms, our tax money, our jobs, our security...) from us so that the GOP can keep using the fear and anger in perpetuity.

Illegal immigration (and workers) keeps the costs of some products (in particular produce and other food products) low.  People like to complain about illegal immigration, but they are hooked on low food prices. Cracking down on businesses who do not want to pay a living wage and do so by regularly hire illegal workers would be a more straightforward way of dealing with this.

As far as myself, there are multiple facets to immigration. Trump also cut the number of work visas for skilled workers, which is hurting our technology sector. i think most people would agree we want educated and talented people to move here. It helps them and benefits our country. I think there also needs to be a more straightforward path for both children who are here now, to become citizens, and for other immigrants to become citizens. We may disagree on what that number should be, but it should be a fair and transparent process. We need to do so in a way that does not violate our constitution and international ethics norms we have agreed to uphold. This is important. If our citizens are in another country we want them to be treated under the same ethical standards. Third, I do agree there is a small percentage of people crossing the border who are criminals. We need to work with Mexico and other countries of the Americas to work together to track these people, both to prevent them from getting into the US, and to bring them to justice. It's in these areas we need to focus our immigration dollars on, not on a wall. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 12:40:11 PM by partgypsy »

Jrr85

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2242 on: June 25, 2018, 01:01:07 PM »
I would also add that it is a red herring to state that taking in immigrants is somehow a terrible burden on us. Studies show that over the long run, it has little effect on wages, or economic growth and can actually fuel innovation.

If you live in a rural area where a large population suddenly shows up, then yes, this can show up in the short term as a burden on education budgets, etc. Over the long run, the immigrant populations are productive members of society... unless we socially and economically marginalize them. That increases crime rates regardless of if they are native-born or immigrant citizens.

http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

I don't think most people are particularly opposed to immigration of educated people.  Maybe to the extent they are concerned about future terrorism, they care more about country of origin and religion than education.  But I think generally, when people are talking about curbing illegal immigration, they are generally saying illegal immigration and meaning specifically low skill illegal immigration over the southern border.  So Studies that look at immigration generally won't sway them.  They'll just say, "Think about how much better it would look with just the legal and high skill/education immigration and without all the illegal and low skill/education immigration from the South."

Right. But unfortunately, studies and articles that show lower-skilled immigrants are necessary to our economy won't sway them, either.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/15/news/economy/california-farmer-workers-immigration/index.html
  Those studies don't get much play.  The only time I can even remember people citing a study trying to estimate what work would not get done was probably several years ago and related to a law in Georgia?  Without some estimate of what work would actually not be done because the market clearing price for U.S. citizen labor would cause the product to be too expensive, then it's too easy for people to say "americans will do it if they just pay enough."  (in fairness, it's extremely hard to put together that data).  That's a sentiment I hear a lot from people on the left and right, with a lot of those from the left being part of the demographic that flipped over and voted for Trump. 


The thing is, if our government were really serious about curbing illegal immigration, they would start imposing meaningful punishments on the people who hire them. But they don't. So...it's easy to conclude that they'd rather keep the specter of brown people taking away (insert your preferred boogeyman here: our freedoms, our tax money, our jobs, our security...) from us so that the GOP can keep using the fear and anger in perpetuity.
  Or you know, just maybe they don't want to stop it because donors like cheap labor. 

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2243 on: June 25, 2018, 01:43:09 PM »
I would argue that a lack of logic, and the inability to think would be to declare that everyone reaching the border should be allowed in with government benefits. Especially on this forum where a good number of people would quickly recognize that the convoys would certainly grow, and become unsustainable. But you made your point. I get that you think the US can house everyone that wants to live here but I disagree. So, I look for discussions about root cause.

Link to the post where someone in this thread wrote that? Thanks.

Well if you are agreeing with me that the President has to turn away certain immigrants, than I guess we see eye to eye. Cool.

Actually the idea is to process the people. Just like people crossing US Canada border. Depending on the person's status, intents etc. they will then be returned over the border, or some kind of process will be initiated (asylum, green card, legal immigration). "Turning away" immigrants is inexact terminology which doesn't explain what exactly is happening. Part of the problem is the checkpoints for applying for asylum are so understaffed, people are turned away repeatedly, given no idea when to return, have no placeholder or record. Which ends up making these people desperate enough to try to get in another way.   In the same way, taking people who have crossed the border and then indefinitely detaining them, is not a great process either. I think Trump needs to LISTEN to the states who are most hit by illegal immigration  (Texas, California) and ask them what resources and regulations would best help with the influx. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 01:45:37 PM by partgypsy »

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2244 on: June 25, 2018, 02:03:22 PM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!

 According to research done by Glenn Beck and his team, the paper trail from Pueblo Sin Fronteras leads back to a group called CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project. CARA encompass two legal groups, the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. and the American Immigration Council. Guess who’s funding them? … none other than radical leftist billionaire: George Soros.

 WHAT IS CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project?

 According to CARA’s website it is a volunteer-built and volunteer-managed site. The site was built to make it easy for the volunteer community to get involved with the CARA Pro Bono Project.

 The volunteers of the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, the American Immigration Council, the Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services, and the American Immigration Lawyers Association, are collectively known as CARA. They joined forces in response to Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) significant expansion of its family detention capacity.

 In addition to the organizations listed on CARA’s website is the reason for their existence:

“The opening of the “South Texas Family Residential Center” in Dilley, Texas – with an initial capacity of 480 beds and the potential to hold 2,400 individuals – and the detention of families at the “Karnes Residential Center” in Karnes City – with a current capacity of 532 beds and plans to double the number – reflect the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to the flawed deterrence policy it began in June 2014 with the opening of a temporary family detention center in Artesia, New Mexico.”

Isn’t that nice? They reflected “the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to flawed policy”.

Now, let’s move on.

 How are CARA, Dilley, Texas and George Soros connected? That would be through Alex Mensing, a so called “on-the-ground coordinator for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention.

 ALEX MENSING, Pueblo Sin Fronteras AND THE SOROS CONNECTION

 So one of the Pueblo Sin Fronteras (people without borders) group’s main organizers and loud mouths seems to be a young, white American named Alex Mensing. Mensing works for immigration justice, writes and does ‘odd jobs’ like work for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project. That’s right!

 According to Alex Mensing’s LinkedIn profile, he works to support Immigration Justice. He lists the CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project, and ‘on-the-ground coordinator’ as part of his “odd jobs”. He also lists that he’s based in Dilley, Texas.

 So Alex Mensing works for CARA in Dilley, Texas and is an on-the ground coordinator in Mexico for the Pueblo Sin Fronteras and the immigration caravan? What’s up with that?

 According to the NY Times, Alex Mensing, is a “project coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras”.

So, the funny thing about connections and money trails they usually lead you to the source, especially a wealthy source like globalist George Soros.

 George Soros is an known atheist. He has been for many years. So why would Soros be supporting a Catholic organization? He doesn’t support religion or Catholics. He does however, support the cause or the movement of open borders and illegal immigration. Soros is about destruction. His purpose is to create chaos just like with #BlackLivesMatter.

 George Soros’ Open Society has written checks to support CARA since 2009 according to the tax forms found by Glenn Beck and his team.



 Soros has given over half a million to support illegal immigration in the past. However, since the immigration debate heated up in 2015, Soros has stepped up his game. In 2015, Soros through ‘Open Society’ gave the Catholic Legal Immigration Network $970,000 and over that same year, the American Immigration Council $350,000.

 Suddenlty you can see the connection from the money trail. Soros donates millions to Catholic Legal Immigration Network and the American Immigration Council, both organizations are part of CARA. Alex Mensing works for CARA in Texas, and coincidently does ‘odd jobs’ like being an ‘on-the-ground’ coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras, the group who supports the illegal immigration caravan.

 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

Let's not beat around the bush: this is rock-bitingly stupid. This boils down to "liberal nonprofit is funded partially by noted liberal".

And as for that last part: I'm not going to discuss Israel, because that's a separate debate, but Italian and Hungarian politics are frequently utterly fucking reprehensible when it comes to the politics of immigration. Viktor Orban's anti-Semitic, Jew-bashing ass and Matteo Salvini's racist bigotry can fuck all the way off. They're both reprehensible sacks of shit who deserve to be flung out of office and kicked on every step of the way back down into anonymity, but unfortunately they won't.

For perspective: Salvini is the head of a party so viciously racist that the semireformed fascists of the MSI once felt the need to engage in community reachout with Italy's Muslim population to make amends for the Lega Nord. His party is comprised almost entirely of unrepentant racists who a hundred years ago would be enthusiastically cheering for Benito Mussolini - in fact, Alessandra Mussolini, Il Duce's own granddaughter, sits in the Italian legislature as a member of Forza Italia, placing the Lega Nord visibly to the right of an actual Mussolini. Orban, meanwhile, is a virulent anti-Semite who's long been happy to harp on old canards about rootless speculators with no loyalty to the countries they live in. Under his rule, the EU is seriously considering stripping Hungary of voting rights in response to his ongoing assaults on the rule of law.

It should be a point of pride for a decent human being to be insulted and castigated by Salvini and Orban.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 03:16:48 PM by runbikerun »

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2245 on: June 25, 2018, 03:00:12 PM »
5D chess, make Europe great again!

Trump tariffs backfire as EU retaliation will force American icon Harley-Davidson to build overseas
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/trump-tariffs-backfire-on-harley-davidson-after-eu-retaliates.html

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9396
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2246 on: June 25, 2018, 03:08:42 PM »
5D chess, make Europe great again!

Trump tariffs backfire as EU retaliation will force American icon Harley-Davidson to build overseas
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/trump-tariffs-backfire-on-harley-davidson-after-eu-retaliates.html


I posted that this morning (one page back),  pay attention!  ;-)

So how does this help to achieve MADA?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-harley-davidson-tariffs/harley-davidson-to-move-some-production-out-of-u-s-to-avoid-eu-tariffs-idUKKBN1JL1B1

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1705
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2247 on: June 25, 2018, 03:43:13 PM »
Fun read. It is a great reason why this huge wave of Migrants did come right before the Mid-terms. Blame the President for not allowing them all in unchecked but I personally think that the people that encouraged them, and funded them did so in utter malice. If Soros can afford Millions to get them to the border, he could have afforded to get them legal counsel at a US embassy abroad. THIS is why I say that these Liberal groups are the ones exploiting the families.

https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!

 According to research done by Glenn Beck and his team, the paper trail from Pueblo Sin Fronteras leads back to a group called CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project. CARA encompass two legal groups, the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. and the American Immigration Council. Guess who’s funding them? … none other than radical leftist billionaire: George Soros.

 WHAT IS CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project?

 According to CARA’s website it is a volunteer-built and volunteer-managed site. The site was built to make it easy for the volunteer community to get involved with the CARA Pro Bono Project.

 The volunteers of the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, the American Immigration Council, the Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services, and the American Immigration Lawyers Association, are collectively known as CARA. They joined forces in response to Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) significant expansion of its family detention capacity.

 In addition to the organizations listed on CARA’s website is the reason for their existence:

“The opening of the “South Texas Family Residential Center” in Dilley, Texas – with an initial capacity of 480 beds and the potential to hold 2,400 individuals – and the detention of families at the “Karnes Residential Center” in Karnes City – with a current capacity of 532 beds and plans to double the number – reflect the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to the flawed deterrence policy it began in June 2014 with the opening of a temporary family detention center in Artesia, New Mexico.”

Isn’t that nice? They reflected “the Obama Administration’s continuing commitment to flawed policy”.

Now, let’s move on.

 How are CARA, Dilley, Texas and George Soros connected? That would be through Alex Mensing, a so called “on-the-ground coordinator for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention.

 ALEX MENSING, Pueblo Sin Fronteras AND THE SOROS CONNECTION

 So one of the Pueblo Sin Fronteras (people without borders) group’s main organizers and loud mouths seems to be a young, white American named Alex Mensing. Mensing works for immigration justice, writes and does ‘odd jobs’ like work for CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project. That’s right!

 According to Alex Mensing’s LinkedIn profile, he works to support Immigration Justice. He lists the CARA Pro Bono Family Detention Project, and ‘on-the-ground coordinator’ as part of his “odd jobs”. He also lists that he’s based in Dilley, Texas.

 So Alex Mensing works for CARA in Dilley, Texas and is an on-the ground coordinator in Mexico for the Pueblo Sin Fronteras and the immigration caravan? What’s up with that?

 According to the NY Times, Alex Mensing, is a “project coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras”.

So, the funny thing about connections and money trails they usually lead you to the source, especially a wealthy source like globalist George Soros.

 George Soros is an known atheist. He has been for many years. So why would Soros be supporting a Catholic organization? He doesn’t support religion or Catholics. He does however, support the cause or the movement of open borders and illegal immigration. Soros is about destruction. His purpose is to create chaos just like with #BlackLivesMatter.

 George Soros’ Open Society has written checks to support CARA since 2009 according to the tax forms found by Glenn Beck and his team.



 Soros has given over half a million to support illegal immigration in the past. However, since the immigration debate heated up in 2015, Soros has stepped up his game. In 2015, Soros through ‘Open Society’ gave the Catholic Legal Immigration Network $970,000 and over that same year, the American Immigration Council $350,000.

 Suddenlty you can see the connection from the money trail. Soros donates millions to Catholic Legal Immigration Network and the American Immigration Council, both organizations are part of CARA. Alex Mensing works for CARA in Texas, and coincidently does ‘odd jobs’ like being an ‘on-the-ground’ coordinator for Pueblo Sin Fronteras, the group who supports the illegal immigration caravan.

 Doesn’t get any clearer does it?

 A globalist Soros supporting amnesty and illegals for one thing only – to destroy America.

 Soros has a clear incentive for groups like Pueblo Sin Fronteras flooding into the United States. He has been pushing for more open immigration laws around the world, resulting in Soros being condemned by other countries as well, such as Israel, Italy, and Hungary to name a few.
 #BUILDTHEWALL

Yeah, fun read of you love non-facts. Or are they alternative facts? Took me all of 30 seconds to find a blatant lie:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/george-soros-bring-down-us/

What's next? Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? Good lord!!!

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2248 on: June 25, 2018, 04:45:30 PM »
The tip off was 'according to research done by Glen Beck'.  Quality research is typically not performed by someone paid to evangelize political issues in the most partisan manner possible.

OtherJen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 637
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2249 on: June 25, 2018, 04:46:53 PM »
Yeah, fun read of you love non-facts. Or are they alternative facts? Took me all of 30 seconds to find a blatant lie:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/george-soros-bring-down-us/

What's next? Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? Good lord!!!

I was wondering when we'd get a Soros sighting!

Personally, I'm still waiting for my Soros check from last year's marches. Alex Jones says that they're really, really big checks and I need them to fund my FIRE accounts. [/sarcasm]