Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 230494 times)

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2150 on: June 21, 2018, 01:39:14 PM »
There will be no reputable press reporting this as a positive. I can find negative articles all day long. This is a horrible situation but one that will hopefully lead to immigration policy reform that is both moral, and enduring. That is the conversation I have been searching for but keep getting blasted as I go against the left grain. If I say anything other than "Boo Trump", the "you hate children" retort comes out.

You didn't suggest alternatives; you suggested a false dichotomy (let them all in or lock the children up) and mocked the situation. This was pointed out to you several times.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

And now you're claiming to be the victim. That's rich.

Well you have not offered anything of value. And I did. There are limited alternatives and none of them are appealing. 1. Keep the family together and let them in 2. Keep the family together and turn them away. 3. Separate the family. You missed it. And just because you cannot comprehend, read, or generally disagree, it does not make it a fallacy. Yes, you use that in every post as if to take the higher ground, sound familiar?

What should the President have done with the existing laws? I meant to mock everyone thinking there was some easy fix. There isn't.

What was being done before the current administration changed their policy to criminally prosecute everyone who enters illegally?  This article seems to indicate that we simply processed their asylum claim before deciding whether to prosecute them.  What was wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that, but it basically negates any border enforcement.  Cross illegally and get caught, claim asylum, then disappear and you are good until you come across ICE's radar again.  Cross illegally and not get caught, but then get caught later, claim asylum and (provided they don't have easily available evidence that you have been here more than a year), disappear and then you are good until you come across ICE's radar again.  I think solid majority of voters on the left and right would be against that if you proposed it to them.  How many would be against it if you told them the alternative is to leave approximately 2,000 kids in U.S. custody when no relative other than the one being prosecuted is available to take them (or alternatively to defy a court order and hold the kids and families together)?  I'm not sure.  I think a lot of people really don't like immigration.  I think a lot of people on the left and right are also tired of politicians lying to them about wanting to stop or slow down illegal immigration. 

Although, shockingly, almost 40%  of asylum claimers do show up to hearings after being released.  Not sure if they continue to show up until the end or not, but unless they can show up for a few hearings to determine whether their chances are good, I would have expected the number to be closer to like 5%, or whatever percentage have a very solid case for asylum (which I would have thought is well less than 40%, but that's an uneducated guess).

I don't know how the asylum seeking process goes, but wouldn't they need to keep in touch with the entity processing the asylum claim in order to complete the process?  Couldn't we just issue a warrant or something like that if someone claims asylum upon initial entry but then never follows through with the rest of the process?

Yes.  In fact, that's what happens in most of the cases where the immigrants aren't detained.  They don't show up, and they are ordered removed in absentia, and then it's just a question of whether they come across ICE's radar again.

Thought the statistics from this DOJ report (automatic pdf download) were useful.

The most striking to me is the Figure on page 34: the massive increase of 'defensive' asylum requests. Also on page 39 you can see the approval rate of asylum requests (around 30% for defensive). So at what point can we say that people are taking advantage of our asylum process? I'm glad we do take in those that are facing persecution in other countries, and it's sad that others will try to take advantage of that system.

Also the stats for 'in absentia' hearings beginning on page 49. So here's my issue, of which I don't know a good solution. There seems to be 10s of thousands of aliens who simply don't show up to court proceedings. How many families are included in those numbers? How many simply duck under the radar after being released? I think the big fear of the 'catch-and-release' policy of Obama's administration is that there are probably at least several thousand kids that we have no idea what happened to them. This is why I'm not hysterical about Trump's new policy. It may be bad, but it's such a complex issue that we don't even understand the trade-offs of two bad policies.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2151 on: June 21, 2018, 02:08:22 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)
I had to check that to make sure it wasn't a satire site I didn't know about. But, nope, she's just that classy.


A relevant quote I saw in some NYT comments:
Quote
“In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trials 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.”

- Captain G. M. Gilbert, U.S. Army Psychologist
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Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2152 on: June 21, 2018, 02:12:21 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2153 on: June 21, 2018, 02:15:39 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

It's confirmed by multiple sources, dude.

Such a small, theoretically insignificant thing. And yet so, so breathtaking...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2154 on: June 21, 2018, 02:32:44 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

I've wondered if these things aren't are ploys to distract. Get everyone who hates him to focus on a gaudy clothing choice or obtuse behavior so that his defenders can say "who cares what they wear? it's not hurting anybody." Create enough "outrage" and it drowns out the real problems. Also gives his supporters a line of defense that helps them sleep at night.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 02:39:43 PM by Dabnasty »

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2155 on: June 21, 2018, 02:38:57 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

Quote
FLOTUS spox confirms Mrs. Trump wore a jacket to visit border kids that reads: "I really don't care. Do you?" Spox says: "It's a jacket. There was no hidden message.

https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/1009871069694627842
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2156 on: June 21, 2018, 02:39:54 PM »
There certainly wasn't a hidden message.  A message was being sent, nonetheless.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2157 on: June 21, 2018, 02:40:32 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

I've wondered if these things aren't are ploy to distract. Get everyone who hates him to focus on a gaudy clothing choice or obtuse behavior so that his defenders can say "who cares what they wear? it's not hurting anybody." Create enough "outrage" and it drowns out the real problems.

I think there's a ton of that going on. In this case, definitely. That jacket cost $39. Ain't no WAY Melania is gonna wear a $39 jacket unless it's for some display to rile up the base -- yay, the Trumps don't really care about "the illegals" -- and give them some lip-smackin' good liberal tears to sip on.

Which, of course, in itself is fucking sickening.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2158 on: June 21, 2018, 03:03:41 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

I've wondered if these things aren't are ploy to distract. Get everyone who hates him to focus on a gaudy clothing choice or obtuse behavior so that his defenders can say "who cares what they wear? it's not hurting anybody." Create enough "outrage" and it drowns out the real problems.

I think there's a ton of that going on. In this case, definitely. That jacket cost $39. Ain't no WAY Melania is gonna wear a $39 jacket unless it's for some display to rile up the base -- yay, the Trumps don't really care about "the illegals" -- and give them some lip-smackin' good liberal tears to sip on.

Which, of course, in itself is fucking sickening.

I absolutely thought that jacket photo was faked, or that someone had punk'd her, at first look.

It means nothing in the grand scheme of things...it's just a jacket, BUT, SERIOUSLY, WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT?   Is it possible that she didn't know there was a message on the back? Could a stylist have just handed it to her?  She comes across (to me) as sad and a bit dopey, but not actively malicious...

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2159 on: June 21, 2018, 03:05:08 PM »
Ya just can't make this shit up. It's worse than gas lighting. Now they are just shoving it in everyone's faces and flaunting the fact that they are immune to everything-because exactly enough voters will always back them. Depressing. Shameful.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2160 on: June 21, 2018, 03:11:48 PM »
I still think it's a planted news story an a media stunt. There's going to be media outrage. Then there's going to be some smarmy reporter asking about it. Then she's going to have the prepared reply-"The jacket was a message, see, it's *irony*. I went down there *because* I cared and the MSM just complains and attacks us anyway. If the liberals cared they'd be here doing something." Wink, smile, dog whistle achieved and media/libs shamed, base happy, liberal tears, etc etc etc... Never mind the millions raised from people who care to help these kids...

Better Late

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2161 on: June 21, 2018, 03:17:36 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

I've wondered if these things aren't are ploys to distract. Get everyone who hates him to focus on a gaudy clothing choice or obtuse behavior so that his defenders can say "who cares what they wear? it's not hurting anybody." Create enough "outrage" and it drowns out the real problems. Also gives his supporters a line of defense that helps them sleep at night.

This. My first thought was that Trump and co were trying to distract. They want everyone to get in a heated argument about a jacket and I'm not taking the bait

Jrr85

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2162 on: June 21, 2018, 03:22:49 PM »
http://theweek.com/speedreads/780527/melania-trump-flew-texas-visit-detained-immigrant-children-apparently-wore-jacket-that-said-really-dont-care

Melania Trump flew to Texas to visit detained immigrant children. She apparently wore a jacket that said 'I really don't care, do you?'

Nice PR stunt by the First Lady.  (NOTE - NOT The Onion)

Can't be true. Was "noticed" by a tabloid? Aw come on, not falling for it. Looks planted. To cause outrage, and so they can then point to dumbass liberals trying to pin everything under the sun on Trump.

I've wondered if these things aren't are ploy to distract. Get everyone who hates him to focus on a gaudy clothing choice or obtuse behavior so that his defenders can say "who cares what they wear? it's not hurting anybody." Create enough "outrage" and it drowns out the real problems.

I think there's a ton of that going on. In this case, definitely. That jacket cost $39. Ain't no WAY Melania is gonna wear a $39 jacket unless it's for some display to rile up the base -- yay, the Trumps don't really care about "the illegals" -- and give them some lip-smackin' good liberal tears to sip on.

Which, of course, in itself is fucking sickening.

Maybe a continuation of Obama's stray voltage theory.  Maybe just a f*&^& up.  Hard to believe that could be an oversight but also hard to believe they woudl be so invested in creating outrage fatigue that they would do that.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2163 on: June 21, 2018, 04:49:57 PM »
I still think it's a planted news story an a media stunt. There's going to be media outrage. Then there's going to be some smarmy reporter asking about it. Then she's going to have the prepared reply-"The jacket was a message, see, it's *irony*. I went down there *because* I cared and the MSM just complains and attacks us anyway. If the liberals cared they'd be here doing something." Wink, smile, dog whistle achieved and media/libs shamed, base happy, liberal tears, etc etc etc... Never mind the millions raised from people who care to help these kids...
Well, that didn't take long to get re-spun...
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/393571-trump-melanias-jacket-refers-to-the-fake-news-media

From the POTUS twitter feed...
Quote
"I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, refers to the Fake News Media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are, and she truly no longer cares!
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Fireball

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2164 on: June 21, 2018, 05:01:38 PM »
This is absolutely an intentional dog whistle. Change the TONS of negative press from 5yr olds in cages to the first ladies jacket. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2165 on: June 21, 2018, 05:32:06 PM »
This is absolutely an intentional dog whistle. Change the TONS of negative press from 5yr olds in cages to the first ladies jacket.

The damage has been done.

(What a fantastic Time cover.)

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2166 on: June 21, 2018, 06:05:04 PM »
Melania's jacket, I take it at face value.

thriftycanadian

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2167 on: June 21, 2018, 09:34:11 PM »
EU Tariffs on US goods start tomorrow.  Canada's start in a week.  Chinese coming too (could be a massive hit)
Most of these targeting Trump country.

In fact, Trump's commerce secretary seems to be acknowledging that the US has an actual trade surplus with Canada on steel, and that Canada's metal industry is not a security threat. 
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-us-commerce-secretary-says-canada-is-not-a-national-security-threat/

Are they back-pedalling?  These WH ass clowns can't make up their mind on separating families, or on tariffs.  Trump is starting to learn that people are not going to just lay over and bow down to the Mango Buffoon.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:36:03 PM by thriftycanadian »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2168 on: June 21, 2018, 09:40:43 PM »
Melania's jacket - Yup, at this point, basic human decency is apparently just too much to ask for.  I'm really not sure why anyone (let alone a former model who is acutely aware of image) would do such a thing as wear a giant sign telling the world they 'REALLY don't care' to maybe the most atrocious humans right violation in recent American history, but there you go.  Maybe she's trying to break Faux news?  But most likely, Melania has completely lost touch with 'reality' - what the majority Normal Americans think and do.  The Trump family has been living in a really weird bubble for a really long time.

Tariffs and trade wars - that won't end well.  Apparently Trump didn't get around to reading 'The World is Flat' by Thomas Friedman.
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Rosy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2169 on: June 22, 2018, 01:15:31 PM »
Great TIME magazine cover.

Melania? She is ineffectual, because of her past. She's lost and she's afraid. There is no one she can lean on or help her navigate in this shadowy Trump world. This bubble that protects her but also holds her prisoner.
I've never seen her so lost and bumbling and barely able to stumble through her scripted encounter as when she visited that shelter. Even her accent was stronger than usual.
An immigrant and a woman - living within this vortex of lies and misinformation without the backing and reassurance of a family like the Bush first ladies enjoyed. Not to mention zero experience in the political scene of Washington.

Nothing in her past has prepared her, a natural introvert, for the world she now inhabits.
That jacket episode? Who cares, she's given up.

POTUS twitter, "Melania has learned ..." ...ugh!

She is by far the most vulnerable person in the Trump Universe and she knows it. If she is not clever and/or brave enough to fight Trump it is understandable. No one else seems to be able to put a stop to anything that he does either, with few exceptions. 
It is only a bit disappointing to have a First Lady with no influence at all - for many reasons.

 
Melania's jacket, I take it at face value.

acroy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2170 on: June 22, 2018, 01:40:56 PM »
(What a fantastic Time cover.)

Great TIME magazine cover.
The fake news one? Yes that will go down in infamy.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2171 on: June 22, 2018, 01:50:46 PM »
(What a fantastic Time cover.)

Great TIME magazine cover.
The fake news one? Yes that will go down in infamy.

The sad thing about Acroy is, he knows he's full of shit.

But this is all he has.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2172 on: June 22, 2018, 01:55:30 PM »
(What a fantastic Time cover.)

Great TIME magazine cover.
The fake news one? Yes that will go down in infamy.
Please do explain how it is "fake news".
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former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2173 on: June 22, 2018, 01:57:21 PM »
(What a fantastic Time cover.)

Great TIME magazine cover.
The fake news one? Yes that will go down in infamy.

What's fake about it?  The picture of the girl is real.  It was taken when her parents were intercepted by border patrol: "welcome to America" indeed.  The picture says nothing about her being separated from her parents.  So what is "fake news" about the picture?


The little girl wasn't one of the ones taken away from her parents, if that's what you're trying to get at.  But it doesn't say that she was.  And there very carefully aren't any pictures of the little girls who have been taken away from their parents because the US government is refusing to let anyone see those girls or take pictures of them.


So again, what's "fake news"?  Are you trying to say no little girls have been taken from their parents?  Are you trying to say Trump and his henchmen (and henchwomen) were not responsible?  There's an essential truth to that Time Magazine cover, which is why it is so powerful.  And presumably also why Trump supporters are trying to call it "fake news".  It isn't.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2174 on: June 22, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »
Quote
Great TIME magazine cover.
It's unfortunate that the child's picture feeds the fake news narrative.  The implication is that the child is one of those forcibly separated, but in fact she was not.  For those who read the fine print, the original photographer didn't misrepresent things, but many (e.g., Time) who are using the picture have done so.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2175 on: June 22, 2018, 02:16:21 PM »
That girl not being separated-is that going to be the actual issue here, or what?

Wonder what Trump's actually got cooking under them silly tweets, jackets, and rallies. This nation is distracted.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2176 on: June 22, 2018, 02:29:45 PM »
Quote
Great TIME magazine cover.
It's unfortunate that the child's picture feeds the fake news narrative.  The implication is that the child is one of those forcibly separated, but in fact she was not.  For those who read the fine print, the original photographer didn't misrepresent things, but many (e.g., Time) who are using the picture have done so.

2,300+ children were separated from their parents.  But yeah, let's argue over a picture Jesus Christ.
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MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2177 on: June 22, 2018, 02:58:28 PM »
Quote
Great TIME magazine cover.
It's unfortunate that the child's picture feeds the fake news narrative.  The implication is that the child is one of those forcibly separated, but in fact she was not.  For those who read the fine print, the original photographer didn't misrepresent things, but many (e.g., Time) who are using the picture have done so.
2,300+ children were separated from their parents.  But yeah, let's argue over a picture Jesus Christ.
For those who applaud the Dan Rather "it may not be factual but it's the truth" approach, there's no problem here.

Time used the picture because it fit a narrative, not because it was accurate.  One would think they could have found an accurate picture.  Had they done so, there would be no competing story.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2178 on: June 22, 2018, 03:03:52 PM »
Quote
Great TIME magazine cover.
It's unfortunate that the child's picture feeds the fake news narrative.  The implication is that the child is one of those forcibly separated, but in fact she was not.  For those who read the fine print, the original photographer didn't misrepresent things, but many (e.g., Time) who are using the picture have done so.
2,300+ children were separated from their parents.  But yeah, let's argue over a picture Jesus Christ.
For those who applaud the Dan Rather "it may not be factual but it's the truth" approach, there's no problem here.

Time used the picture because it fit a narrative, not because it was accurate.  One would think they could have found an accurate picture.  Had they done so, there would be no competing story.

I think you underestimate the ability of people to come up with distractions. :P

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2179 on: June 22, 2018, 03:18:12 PM »
I think you underestimate the ability of people to come up with distractions. :P
Well, yes, there's always something - I agree. ;)

But at least it wouldn't be this something.  Avoiding own-goals is a good thing....

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2180 on: June 22, 2018, 05:39:13 PM »
Quote
Great TIME magazine cover.
It's unfortunate that the child's picture feeds the fake news narrative.  The implication is that the child is one of those forcibly separated, but in fact she was not.  For those who read the fine print, the original photographer didn't misrepresent things, but many (e.g., Time) who are using the picture have done so.
2,300+ children were separated from their parents.  But yeah, let's argue over a picture Jesus Christ.
For those who applaud the Dan Rather "it may not be factual but it's the truth" approach, there's no problem here.

Time used the picture because it fit a narrative, not because it was accurate.  One would think they could have found an accurate picture.  Had they done so, there would be no competing story.

The press have been kept away from the "accurate" pictures.  Even when press have been allowed inside the child detention centres they haven't been allowed cameras.   No picture, no  story, right?
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bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2181 on: June 22, 2018, 05:56:37 PM »
For those who applaud the Dan Rather "it may not be factual but it's the truth" approach, there's no problem here.

Time used the picture because it fit a narrative, not because it was accurate.  One would think they could have found an accurate picture.  Had they done so, there would be no competing story.

Right? The entire picture is fake!!!!11! Trump never saw that girl with a red screen behind them!! I mean, they were a thousand miles apart when she was crying. And those floating words...that's impossible. I think this picture is photoshopped.


I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated. Like many pictures and paintings, it represents something else beyond the actual picture (real life doesn't have floating words and red backgrounds). In this case, it represents Trump's callous indifference about family separations.

The Trump faithful can keep tilting at windmills, though. Maybe it won't play as badly for them in the October ads.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2182 on: June 22, 2018, 06:09:21 PM »
The press have been kept away from the "accurate" pictures.  Even when press have been allowed inside the child detention centres they haven't been allowed cameras.   No picture, no  story, right?
Then the press ought to say that, rather than reusing Obama-era photos and photos of non-separated children while implying the photos are of children separated due to Trump's policies, agreed?

I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.
But some fraction of those, upon understanding that Time used a "fake" picture, will feel more favorable toward Trump.

It's the own-goal thing.

Trump takes a reasonable strategy (protect the border) and uses stupid tactics (separation of children for minor infractions).  The anti-Trump press takes a reasonable strategy (highlight Trump's stupid tactics) and uses their own stupid tactics (photos of things other than children affected by Trump's policies).

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2183 on: June 22, 2018, 06:20:44 PM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.
But some fraction of those, upon understanding that Time used a "fake" picture, will feel more favorable toward Trump.

It's the own-goal thing.

Trump takes a reasonable strategy (protect the border) and uses stupid tactics (separation of children for minor infractions).  The anti-Trump press takes a reasonable strategy (highlight Trump's stupid tactics) and uses their own stupid tactics (photos of things other than children affected by Trump's policies).

Anyone who cares enough that an obviously photoshopped picture of Trump and a kid on a red background is...photoshopped has already made up their mind about Trump.

It's also a popularity issue. What made more news? Conservatives of all stripes calling out Trump or a Time cover? Trump blaming Obama, claiming it can't be changed, and then Trump walking it back vs a Time cover?

Cue the children in cages during ad season. It made for bad optics and Trump finally realized it.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2184 on: June 22, 2018, 06:24:37 PM »
The press have been kept away from the "accurate" pictures.  Even when press have been allowed inside the child detention centres they haven't been allowed cameras.   No picture, no  story, right?
Then the press ought to say that, rather than reusing Obama-era photos and photos of non-separated children while implying the photos are of children separated due to Trump's policies, agreed?

The reputable press should of course accurately atttribute their photos and correct any incorrect attributions.  I'm sure if there have been any incorrect attributions that have not been corrected you could point that out and get the correction made.  If you are aware of any specific incorrect attributions that the press haven't corrected despite being asked to do so please feel free to publicise that and specify them here.   If you are not aware of any such cases you should not imply them.

Apparently the Trump administration has in the last few days been putting out photos from some years ago as "evidence" of current conditions.  It's quite possible some news outlets have been using those photos supplied by the US government.  I'm sure you would agree that the Trump administration should not be putting out old photos in relation to current conditions, right?
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MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2185 on: June 22, 2018, 06:35:14 PM »
It made for bad optics and Trump finally realized it.
Exactly: good strategy (border protection) and bad tactics/optics - agreed.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2186 on: June 22, 2018, 06:36:26 PM »
I'm sure you would agree that the Trump administration should not be putting out old photos in relation to current conditions, right?
Of course. 

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2187 on: June 22, 2018, 06:46:36 PM »
If you are aware of any specific incorrect attributions that the press haven't corrected despite being asked to do so please feel free to publicise that and specify them here.
I'm assuming Time meant for people to assume the cover picture showed a separated child.  It's even possible that Time assumed that was the child's status (e.g., didn't notice the photographer's details).

If Time puts out a corrected cover saying "although we think Trump is doing something terrible, the picture we used was factually misleading" I'll be impressed.

It would be fair game for a political cartoonist to draw a similar picture (and perhaps several have).

If the press wants to be perceived as objective they should be accurate, that's all.  And that applies to Fox or Breitbart or CNN or MSNBC, etc.  At least, that's my opinion....

wienerdog

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2188 on: June 22, 2018, 07:45:07 PM »
(What a fantastic Time cover.)

Great TIME magazine cover.
The fake news one? Yes that will go down in infamy.

So again, what's "fake news"?  Are you trying to say no little girls have been taken from their parents?  Are you trying to say Trump and his henchmen (and henchwomen) were not responsible?  There's an essential truth to that Time Magazine cover, which is why it is so powerful.  And presumably also why Trump supporters are trying to call it "fake news".  It isn't.

Fake news gets corrected unless you are the tabloids.

http://time.com/longform/john-moore-getty-photo-separation/?xid=tcoshare

Correction: The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.

A series of poor judgments by an adult and this is usually how it ends up.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2189 on: June 22, 2018, 08:19:28 PM »
A series of poor judgments by an adult and this is usually how it ends up.

Yep. Next time Trump shouldn't listen to Miller. Locking up children for ideology really displays one's true state-of-mind.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2190 on: June 23, 2018, 02:03:12 AM »
If you are aware of any specific incorrect attributions that the press haven't corrected despite being asked to do so please feel free to publicise that and specify them here.
I'm assuming Time meant for people to assume the cover picture showed a separated child.  It's even possible that Time assumed that was the child's status (e.g., didn't notice the photographer's details).

If Time puts out a corrected cover saying "although we think Trump is doing something terrible, the picture we used was factually misleading" I'll be impressed.

It would be fair game for a political cartoonist to draw a similar picture (and perhaps several have).

If the press wants to be perceived as objective they should be accurate, that's all.  And that applies to Fox or Breitbart or CNN or MSNBC, etc.  At least, that's my opinion....

That's a lot of effort you've put into worrying about press accuracy.  Sadly I don't see the same standards being imposed on the Administration.  Which lies like a rug.  Starting with Trump and working through all his collaborators in the Cabinet, and the White House, and Congress.  Funny, that.
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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2191 on: June 23, 2018, 06:25:06 AM »
If you are aware of any specific incorrect attributions that the press haven't corrected despite being asked to do so please feel free to publicise that and specify them here.
I'm assuming Time meant for people to assume the cover picture showed a separated child.  It's even possible that Time assumed that was the child's status (e.g., didn't notice the photographer's details).

If Time puts out a corrected cover saying "although we think Trump is doing something terrible, the picture we used was factually misleading" I'll be impressed.

It would be fair game for a political cartoonist to draw a similar picture (and perhaps several have).

If the press wants to be perceived as objective they should be accurate, that's all.  And that applies to Fox or Breitbart or CNN or MSNBC, etc.  At least, that's my opinion....

Time did put out a correction, as they typically do. Remember when they put out a statement claiming this magazine cover never even happened:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/28/time-magazinetrump-fake-covers-golf-clubs

You have to appreciate the irony. It is a good distraction for folks like Acroy who are desperately trying to defend Trump's inhumane practices. Any morsel of perceived "fake news" is like gold to them.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:08:48 AM by MasterStache »

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2192 on: June 23, 2018, 09:52:41 AM »
That's a lot of effort you've put into worrying about press accuracy.  Sadly I don't see the same standards being imposed on the Administration.  Which lies like a rug.  Starting with Trump and working through all his collaborators in the Cabinet, and the White House, and Congress.  Funny, that.
Takes very little effort at all. :)

As for this or any other administration, the old saw about "how do you know a politician is lying?" is all too accurate in too many cases.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2193 on: June 23, 2018, 09:57:22 AM »
Time did put out a correction, as they typically do. Remember when they put out a statement claiming this magazine cover never even happened:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/28/time-magazinetrump-fake-covers-golf-clubs

You have to appreciate the irony. It is a good distraction for folks like Acroy who are desperately trying to defend Trump's inhumane practices. Any morsel of perceived "fake news" is like gold to them.
Yes, they did put out a correction.  As with most (all?) such situations, the correction gets much less prominence than the headline/cover.

And I agree with you on the irony. :)

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2194 on: June 23, 2018, 10:41:33 AM »
If you are aware of any specific incorrect attributions that the press haven't corrected despite being asked to do so please feel free to publicise that and specify them here.
I'm assuming Time meant for people to assume the cover picture showed a separated child.  It's even possible that Time assumed that was the child's status (e.g., didn't notice the photographer's details).

If Time puts out a corrected cover saying "although we think Trump is doing something terrible, the picture we used was factually misleading" I'll be impressed.

It would be fair game for a political cartoonist to draw a similar picture (and perhaps several have).

If the press wants to be perceived as objective they should be accurate, that's all.  And that applies to Fox or Breitbart or CNN or MSNBC, etc.  At least, that's my opinion....

What's the actual harm that's caused if somebody mistakenly assumes that this particular little girl was separated from her family?  How would it change their view of the overall situation that wouldn't comport with reality?  Is the only actual problem here that you are assuming that Time intended for people to be mislead?

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2195 on: June 23, 2018, 11:04:56 AM »
What's the actual harm that's caused if somebody mistakenly assumes that this particular little girl was separated from her family?  How would it change their view of the overall situation that wouldn't comport with reality?  Is the only actual problem here that you are assuming that Time intended for people to be mislead?
As noted previously, Time either intended to mislead or simply made a mistake.  Either way, it ends up detracting from the message they intended to send.  One can argue whether the detraction is fair or unfair, but so it goes.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2196 on: June 23, 2018, 11:09:09 AM »
What's the actual harm that's caused if somebody mistakenly assumes that this particular little girl was separated from her family?  How would it change their view of the overall situation that wouldn't comport with reality?  Is the only actual problem here that you are assuming that Time intended for people to be mislead?
As noted previously, Time either intended to mislead or simply made a mistake.  Either way, it ends up detracting from the message they intended to send.  One can argue whether the detraction is fair or unfair, but so it goes.

It only detracts from the message for people who think there's no problem with what's going on, because it gives them an excuse to complain and distract. If it wasn't this excuse, they would come up with something else. "The magazine cover misleadingly puts Trump looking down at a child and he never did that!"

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2197 on: June 23, 2018, 11:36:47 AM »
If it wasn't this excuse, they would come up with something else. "The magazine cover misleadingly puts Trump looking down at a child and he never did that!"
I'll leave the hypotheticals to others. :)

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2198 on: June 23, 2018, 12:01:44 PM »
I doubt that the 75% of Americans who think family separation is a Bad Idea (per various polling, cf 538) are distracted by the fact that the girl wasn't actually separated.

Most of that 75% are sheeple who have been manipulated by the mainstream media without even realizing it.

shenlong55

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2199 on: June 23, 2018, 12:16:16 PM »


What's the actual harm that's caused if somebody mistakenly assumes that this particular little girl was separated from her family?  How would it change their view of the overall situation that wouldn't comport with reality?  Is the only actual problem here that you are assuming that Time intended for people to be mislead?
As noted previously, Time either intended to mislead or simply made a mistake.  Either way, it ends up detracting from the message they intended to send.  One can argue whether the detraction is fair or unfair, but so it goes.

Why does it detract from the message?  Is it because your assuming that since Time made a "mistake" on their cover that the rest of the article must be filled with mistakes?  Or because your assuming that Time was being intentionally deceitful and therefore the rest of the article must be deceitful?

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