Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 230501 times)

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2000 on: June 18, 2018, 02:04:40 PM »
Are we arguing about the Obama drone program as a proxy for Trump's charity fraud?  Liberals didn't have an issue with Obama's drones (for which no evidence was offered of liberal neutrality), so we are not allowed to criticize anything about Trump's self-dealing charity?  Luckily, the judicial system of New York cannot be satisfied with "Your honor, I did take money from my charity for myself, but DRONES" even if that rationale is enough for Trump's base. 

I like to balance both sides of the equation.  So, when considering how I feel about politicians and drones, I don't compare drones to charity fraud. I compare drones to drones.  The evidence indicates that Trump is enthusiastic about their use.  For someone who feels drone strikes are immoral, you'd either call Trump and Obama a wash or lean slightly towards Obama just because he didn't seem to drool with pleasure at the thought of deploying them.  I don't think "BUT DRONES" is a potent argument to differentiate Trump and Obama.  And it doesn't excuse or mitigate Trump's various moral failings and administrative incompetence with regard to 98% of his job. 

I wonder how many Trump voters we'll be able to find in 10 years.  Will they have all disappeared into the ether like W voters?  Silver lining for Republicans: voting for W doesn't seem quite as shameful now.  In fact, it seems like a badge of pride for lots of people I know that, even though they voted for W, they were smart enough not vote for Trump.

I actually brought up the drones because of the earlier complaints against President Trump and his war mongering in North Korea. I merely said I found his diplomacy in NK more effective than that of Obama in Syria or Russia. War time ethics are hard to quantify but the number of people bothered by President Trumps handling of current events are much more vocal than anyone bothered by Obama's inaction, apologies and unchecked drone strikes and I find that odd.

They say President Trump is evil for deporting illegals but applauded Obama's DACA. I hated DACA because it is "Deferred Action" He only punted the ball for the next guy, there was nothing enduring there, just an open invitation with no plan to care or provide. The Democrats and Obama had every opportunity to pass enduring legislature that would have encouraged immigration but they failed to do so. They chose the "Deferred" option and that means today's leadership needs to take the action, they should have.

Trumps charity is illegal and immoral but Clinton's was somehow the ethical role model for charities are supposed to operate. Funny after how much they siphoned from Haiti, the Haitian government doesn't seem to find them very helpful, and yes there are many other reasons I would call them unethical.

I do agree with President Trump's military action in Syria. I think it was far more effective than warning people not to cross a line. They did and Obama folded. Weak. And the point that President Trump should have intervened in Crimea, also weak. That should have been done while it was being invaded. I agree that Trump has many responsibilities to fix many global and domestic messes but I don't necessarily think Crimea is on his shoulders. The cuts to the military during the Obama years was crippling. I am glad it is getting fixed and America, again, has a strong presence.

The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.

I am "Speculating about the future of a full Trump Presidency". I think many of his big moves were forced by Obama failures such as weak military stances, DACA and ACA. His intentions were good but Obama's end state was not good. ACA has spiraling out of control costs and very few companies left that can survive and DACA was an invitation with no follow on considerations.

You aren't speculating. You are providing your own biased opinion of Obama's policies.

We are 1.5 years into Trump presidency. He didn't provide cheap healthcare for all. He simply killed a part of that ACA. Meaning he simply kicked folks back off healthcare.

He didn't fix immigration. He actually made it worse and blames it on Dems.

I mean hell you might as well blame Obama for Trump sexually assaulting women, praising white supremacists, cheating on his wife with a prostitute and paying her off, etc. Oh and don't forget the Russia investigation. Probably Obama's fault as well.

aaahhrealmarcus

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2001 on: June 18, 2018, 04:19:08 PM »
Speculate about the future of the presidency? Let's see... in a year's time we've gone to praising Nazis (very fine people) to literally putting people in camps, so things are going pretty much the way I expected
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2002 on: June 18, 2018, 04:47:42 PM »
Speculate about the future of the presidency? Let's see... in a year's time we've gone to praising Nazis (very fine people) to literally putting people in camps, so things are going pretty much the way I expected

Yup. And his popularity is as high as it’s ever been.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2003 on: June 18, 2018, 05:16:16 PM »
I wonder if Trump was intentionally thumbing his nose at international treaty signed by the United States when he announced his Space Force today...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2004 on: June 18, 2018, 06:22:15 PM »
Speculate about the future of the presidency? Let's see... in a year's time we've gone to praising Nazis (very fine people) to literally putting people in camps, so things are going pretty much the way I expected

*closes eyes and hopes really hard that Trump doesn't think Canada looks too much like Poland*
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Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2005 on: June 18, 2018, 06:28:52 PM »
Speculate about the future of the presidency? Let's see... in a year's time we've gone to praising Nazis (very fine people) to literally putting people in camps, so things are going pretty much the way I expected

*closes eyes and hopes really hard that Trump doesn't think Canada looks too much like Poland*
He would probably claim that it is time to get final resolution of the Pig War (which was resolved, in favor of the US).
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2006 on: June 18, 2018, 07:16:42 PM »
Speculate about the future of the presidency? Let's see... in a year's time we've gone to praising Nazis (very fine people) to literally putting people in camps, so things are going pretty much the way I expected

*closes eyes and hopes really hard that Trump doesn't think Canada looks too much like Poland*

It's not that we want to attack, we're just reclaiming our land. Defensively. And you burned down our white house.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2007 on: June 18, 2018, 07:18:57 PM »
Speculation*:

The tariff tit-for-tat will continue until companies start becoming cautious about their spending and the economy slides into a recession. Then, with any luck, some of the GOP Senate will grow a spine and take away the President's tariff power.

"The White House said Monday evening that if China goes through with its promise to retaliate against the US tariffs announced last week, the United States will impose tariffs on an additional $200 billion worth of Chinese goods."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/18/news/economy/trump-china-tariffs-retaliation/index.html




* See how it's done? Nothing about Obama or Clinton.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2008 on: June 18, 2018, 09:25:37 PM »
The tariff tit-for-tat will continue until companies start becoming cautious about their spending and the economy slides into a recession.
Except for economies which are already under sanctions, they won't be any worse off.

Now you start to see why Putin was keen to get Trump in. He's the Russian Bismarck.
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toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2009 on: June 19, 2018, 08:39:16 AM »
I have a crazy theory that there is a strategy behind the tariffs and tax changes.

TL;DR = Trump is trying to accelerate inflation so that his real estate empire appreciates faster, and his (and his cadre's) debts that are denominated in US dollars become less of a burden.  I don't think he will be 100% successful, but sometimes things happen fast.  And we aren't used to pilots who aim at the ground, so we might react too slowly to stop it.

Long version:
  • What happens when tariffs on imported consumer goods raises their prices so that domestic equivalents look attractive?  Rising prices would create an overall upward pressure on wages, as supply chains shift, factories spin up, etc. (Weak unions could offset the wage pressure, but then sales will decline, making businesses more open to raises).
  • What happens when the national debt increases dramatically over a short period of time?  The government can either raise taxes or print money.  I don't think the GOP is going to raise taxes, so I expect the money supply to be manipulated, leading to inflation.  Even if we get option A, higher taxes, businesses will just raise prices, so inflation wins again.  Also, Trump seems to think it's ok to just print money, so the budget deficit doesn't matter.
  • What happens when unemployment is low and the economy is growing?  Workers have money to spend, leading to increased demand.  Suppliers can then raise prices to offset the increased demand, once again leading to inflation.
  • What happens when the dollar is weak (US dollar index down 2.7% this year)?  Imported goods (aka most consumer goods) get more expensive.  Exporters like this, but consumers may not.  This feeds into #1.






ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2010 on: June 19, 2018, 10:25:21 AM »
The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.



Just plain wrong here. The ACA caused the uninsured rate to drop from 18% of the population to below 9%.

Sorry, I thought I read somewhere that the rates were raising significantly because the providers were not able to continue to offer rates without the excessive government subsidies. I was not aware that all of the news about the rate hikes and health care companies dropping out was actually fake news. I then agree that the new President should leave it completely intact since it is as amazing as you say it is. Shame all of those news sites are claiming such excessive rate hikes. Weird that they would all lie about those but thank you for clarifying.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2011 on: June 19, 2018, 11:35:24 AM »
The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.



Just plain wrong here. The ACA caused the uninsured rate to drop from 18% of the population to below 9%.

Sorry, I thought I read somewhere that the rates were raising significantly because the providers were not able to continue to offer rates without the excessive government subsidies. I was not aware that all of the news about the rate hikes and health care companies dropping out was actually fake news. I then agree that the new President should leave it completely intact since it is as amazing as you say it is. Shame all of those news sites are claiming such excessive rate hikes. Weird that they would all lie about those but thank you for clarifying.

"excessive government subsidies". The subsidies are exactly what the government agreed to pay. This is no more or less different than having say your company subsidize insurance. There are many many ways to decrease premiums. some of them being: having larger pools of people including both young and older people in them. the largest pool of course, being universal coverage and mandatory enrollment. This gives you the MOST bang for the buck (100% access, lowest per per premium). the collorary effects is, when you have universal coverage, it is a positive improvement in overall public health. Increased preventative care (prenatal, childhood, also immunizations), decrease in catastrophic and emergency care. Having a healthy populace who is safe and can work is a net positive for a society.

Once you have universal coverage, the government can bargain with pharmaceutical companies as well as many other healthcare costs for a lower negotiated rate, same product. Other things of increasing access, are increasing the window people can enroll, including the weekends, and providing support/service to enroll. If you happen to notice, everything that would make healthcare premiums more affordable, and more accessible, the Republicans have either proposed removing, or have already gotten rid of already. Don't you think it's WEIRD that the Republicans want to decrease access and decrease affordability of US healthcare? I mean, why would they do that? They work for us, not the healthcare insurance companies, right?  https://psmag.com/news/health-insurance-senate-money-connections 

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2012 on: June 19, 2018, 11:45:48 AM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jim555

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2013 on: June 19, 2018, 11:46:33 AM »
Trump cut off the Cost Sharing Reductions (CSR) payments in the Silver plans.  This caused the Silver prices to rise and subsidies to increase (since subsidies are hinged to a Silver benchmark).  Net effect is the government is now paying more than before.  So he is helping the ACA!

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2014 on: June 19, 2018, 12:13:39 PM »
The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.



Just plain wrong here. The ACA caused the uninsured rate to drop from 18% of the population to below 9%.

Sorry, I thought I read somewhere that the rates were raising significantly because the providers were not able to continue to offer rates without the excessive government subsidies. I was not aware that all of the news about the rate hikes and health care companies dropping out was actually fake news. I then agree that the new President should leave it completely intact since it is as amazing as you say it is. Shame all of those news sites are claiming such excessive rate hikes. Weird that they would all lie about those but thank you for clarifying.

"excessive government subsidies". The subsidies are exactly what the government agreed to pay. This is no more or less different than having say your company subsidize insurance. There are many many ways to decrease premiums. some of them being: having larger pools of people including both young and older people in them. the largest pool of course, being universal coverage and mandatory enrollment. This gives you the MOST bang for the buck (100% access, lowest per per premium). the collorary effects is, when you have universal coverage, it is a positive improvement in overall public health. Increased preventative care (prenatal, childhood, also immunizations), decrease in catastrophic and emergency care. Having a healthy populace who is safe and can work is a net positive for a society.

Once you have universal coverage, the government can bargain with pharmaceutical companies as well as many other healthcare costs for a lower negotiated rate, same product. Other things of increasing access, are increasing the window people can enroll, including the weekends, and providing support/service to enroll. If you happen to notice, everything that would make healthcare premiums more affordable, and more accessible, the Republicans have either proposed removing, or have already gotten rid of already. Don't you think it's WEIRD that the Republicans want to decrease access and decrease affordability of US healthcare? I mean, why would they do that? They work for us, not the healthcare insurance companies, right?  https://psmag.com/news/health-insurance-senate-money-connections

Universal healthcare does offer the benefits that you propose but the costs are only rising. If the Government continues to pay "Subsidize" the insurance then taxes will have to rise to the levels similar to the 45-50% rate of the EU countries that have Universal health care. My health care out of pocket is much higher due to ACA and the fact that health care monopolies exist is a real concern that need addressed. It is a good tactic to declare "Republicans want to take away health care" but that is not the entire truth. Politicians on both sides have used pharmaceutical company donations to make bad decisions. The is the swamp as I see it, and the part that needs to be drained the most. I think monopolies are bad for the economy and should be addresses. And if politicians want to run on a platform for Universal Coverage as ACA was destined to be, they need to be aware that the 45-50% tax is going to be a requirement to pay for such a large scale venture.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2015 on: June 19, 2018, 12:34:12 PM »
Universal healthcare does offer the benefits that you propose but the costs are only rising. If the Government continues to pay "Subsidize" the insurance then taxes will have to rise to the levels similar to the 45-50% rate of the EU countries that have Universal health care. My health care out of pocket is much higher due to ACA and the fact that health care monopolies exist is a real concern that need addressed. It is a good tactic to declare "Republicans want to take away health care" but that is not the entire truth. Politicians on both sides have used pharmaceutical company donations to make bad decisions. The is the swamp as I see it, and the part that needs to be drained the most. I think monopolies are bad for the economy and should be addresses. And if politicians want to run on a platform for Universal Coverage as ACA was destined to be, they need to be aware that the 45-50% tax is going to be a requirement to pay for such a large scale venture.

First, 45-50% is a bit high. Remember that the effective tax rate is much lower than the marginal tax rate. There's another (older) study that has only 2.4% of single people in Australia paying 50% effective taxes but this site has the 2018 marginal rates in Austrialia:

https://www.superguide.com.au/boost-your-superannuation/income-tax-rates

More importantly, as American's, we're already paying our exorbitant, 2x the world, health care costs. It's not as if we're adding additional costs. The costs are paid from taxes and premiums and co-pays and out-of-pocket expenses.

What needs to happen is a reduction in health care costs. Even if tax rates were to go to 45% to cover health care, we'd save money overall if health care costs were reduced to the OECD average.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2016 on: June 19, 2018, 01:07:25 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.
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GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2017 on: June 19, 2018, 01:15:58 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.

Habeus Corpus doesn't apply to everyone.  Remember all the guys in Guantanamo Bay?
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ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2018 on: June 19, 2018, 01:45:09 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2019 on: June 19, 2018, 01:52:14 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

Speaking of the money trail:

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/8s90f0/trump_doubles_down_as_anger_grows_over_child/e0xlrnx/

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2020 on: June 19, 2018, 01:53:14 PM »
The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.



Just plain wrong here. The ACA caused the uninsured rate to drop from 18% of the population to below 9%.

Sorry, I thought I read somewhere that the rates were raising significantly because the providers were not able to continue to offer rates without the excessive government subsidies. I was not aware that all of the news about the rate hikes and health care companies dropping out was actually fake news. I then agree that the new President should leave it completely intact since it is as amazing as you say it is. Shame all of those news sites are claiming such excessive rate hikes. Weird that they would all lie about those but thank you for clarifying.

"excessive government subsidies". The subsidies are exactly what the government agreed to pay. This is no more or less different than having say your company subsidize insurance. There are many many ways to decrease premiums. some of them being: having larger pools of people including both young and older people in them. the largest pool of course, being universal coverage and mandatory enrollment. This gives you the MOST bang for the buck (100% access, lowest per per premium). the collorary effects is, when you have universal coverage, it is a positive improvement in overall public health. Increased preventative care (prenatal, childhood, also immunizations), decrease in catastrophic and emergency care. Having a healthy populace who is safe and can work is a net positive for a society.

Once you have universal coverage, the government can bargain with pharmaceutical companies as well as many other healthcare costs for a lower negotiated rate, same product. Other things of increasing access, are increasing the window people can enroll, including the weekends, and providing support/service to enroll. If you happen to notice, everything that would make healthcare premiums more affordable, and more accessible, the Republicans have either proposed removing, or have already gotten rid of already. Don't you think it's WEIRD that the Republicans want to decrease access and decrease affordability of US healthcare? I mean, why would they do that? They work for us, not the healthcare insurance companies, right?  https://psmag.com/news/health-insurance-senate-money-connections

Universal healthcare does offer the benefits that you propose but the costs are only rising. If the Government continues to pay "Subsidize" the insurance then taxes will have to rise to the levels similar to the 45-50% rate of the EU countries that have Universal health care. My health care out of pocket is much higher due to ACA and the fact that health care monopolies exist is a real concern that need addressed. It is a good tactic to declare "Republicans want to take away health care" but that is not the entire truth. Politicians on both sides have used pharmaceutical company donations to make bad decisions. The is the swamp as I see it, and the part that needs to be drained the most. I think monopolies are bad for the economy and should be addresses. And if politicians want to run on a platform for Universal Coverage as ACA was destined to be, they need to be aware that the 45-50% tax is going to be a requirement to pay for such a large scale venture.

Health care doesn't work that way. There have been scores of studies and research showing, that universal healthcare coverage is better than our current way of providing healthcare on both measures: it provides better care, at a lower per-person basis. right now we have a higher per person cost basis, and a high level of non-insured, which increases health costs for all. It is true that it needs to be determined how to pay for this healthcare, and who pays for what. Right now we are paying more, but it is done in a nontransparent patchwork way; through employer subsidies, through insurance premiums, through out of pocket expenses, and also through healthcare providers charging more to cover the uninsured costs. Even hospitals do not feel the way we are currently doing business (before ACA, and with semi broken ACA) is going to be sustainable long-term. So, it needs to be fixed. My personal opinion, fix it in a way that actually Fixes it. If the overall burden of healthcare costs is decreased, it is a win/win for everyone. Even fiscal conservatives should be behind universal coverage. Plus, a strong argument can be made, if there is universal coverage, there is more freedom Americans to start their own business or become entrepreneurs, because they do not have to feel stuck with a traditional job in order to have (affordable) healthcare coverage.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 01:58:57 PM by partgypsy »

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2021 on: June 19, 2018, 02:22:33 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.

Habeus Corpus doesn't apply to everyone.  Remember all the guys in Guantanamo Bay?

It didn't apply to Guantanamo Bay because that wasn't US sovereign territory.  These kids are being held in the USA and habeus corpus applies.

This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.
What about the parents who have been deported and their kids are still being held in the USA?  Shouldn't they get their kids back?  Using habeus corpus?

What about the parents who have been released into the USA and given temporary rights to remain?  Shouldn't they get their kids back?  Using habeus corpus?


All of the parents who are released from detention, either to be deported or to be given temporary rights to remain, should immediately be reunited with their kids.  That isn't happening, and the fact that it isn't happening is a complete and utter disgrace and totally unlawful.  Heads should roll.
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Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2022 on: June 19, 2018, 02:36:12 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.

Habeus Corpus doesn't apply to everyone.  Remember all the guys in Guantanamo Bay?

I don't understand why this is even "news." It happened before, now it's happening more. It went from hundreds to thousands. So it was ok when it was only hundreds of families getting split up? The outcry seems disingenuous. What *should* be done here with families illegally crossing? I hate Trump and I think he's a total racist, but this is one thing he is doing that is good for the country. There are countries in Europe dealing with their own immigration crises. Denmark just decided to ban a burquas. Can you imagine something like that happening here? The public opinion on Muslims is so bad over there they decided to ban a fucking article of clothing. I think it was a failed political gambit meant to grab people's attention on how many people are crossing, but regardless of intent this is an issue that needs addressing. Illegal immigration isn't just bad for the US, it's bad for immigrants who form and settle in areas that get mired in poverty and eventually suffer from lack of opportunity and crime. Ghettos, gangs, and insular groups of people cut off from the rest of the country. An example right now are the ultra orthodox Jews in New York destroying some school districts and cities they take over. And that is not a covert form of racism, they are actually taking over school districts:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/11/insular-hasidic-jews-struggle-to-preserve-customs-as-legal-and-social-pressures-build.amp.html

Yes, it's a Fox News link, but there is real journalism in that story. Check it out.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:38:15 PM by Johnez »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2023 on: June 19, 2018, 02:37:50 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.


You are okay, then, with the insane amounts of taxpayer dollars being spent to do this, then? Just turn them around, families intact, if this is the outcome you want. No cages or tents needed, no money spent on lawyers and caregivers.

(Personally I favor a more compassionate approach,  but it’s really surprising me that Republicans supporting this ridiculously expensive, ineffective approach to just not letting people in. Clearly the fiscal conservative leg of the Republican Party is officially dead.)

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2024 on: June 19, 2018, 02:42:41 PM »

I don't understand why this is even "news." It happened before

No, it didn't.  UNACCOMPANIED minors were housed until the government could figure out what to do with them.  Some minors were detained WITH THEIR PARENTS.  Unless you can cite a legitimate source, saying "it happened before" is a lie.
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runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2025 on: June 19, 2018, 02:43:19 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2026 on: June 19, 2018, 02:43:51 PM »
Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that.

He alone ended DACA.  Jesus.
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Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2027 on: June 19, 2018, 03:01:22 PM »
Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

Do you not see the gaping chasm between these two ideas?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2028 on: June 19, 2018, 03:03:06 PM »
Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

Do you not see the gaping chasm between these two ideas?

Seems relevant: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2029 on: June 19, 2018, 03:35:39 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

We have the same thing in Canada.   Migrants from the US walk across the Canadian border.   There's lots of complaining about letting anyone in, but they all get moved to camps for processing and most of them are sent back whence they came.   Fortunately the US makes a good buffer between Canada and central america...

None of this justifies separating families, mind you.
Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2030 on: June 19, 2018, 04:16:18 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

We have the same thing in Canada.   Migrants from the US walk across the Canadian border.   There's lots of complaining about letting anyone in, but they all get moved to camps for processing and most of them are sent back whence they came.   Fortunately the US makes a good buffer between Canada and central america...

None of this justifies separating families, mind you.

Our refugees and asylum seekers come from all over, and who is coming from where depends on which year you look at.  We have always had people coming from Central/South America and the Caribbean.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

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bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2031 on: June 19, 2018, 04:16:51 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

It's more like tacit acceptance. Business owners, including wealthy landowners from New York, use illegal labor because it reduces costs. A lot of the yard work, construction, and farming, is done by immigrants.* Over the years, various politicians that have been anti-illegal-immigration have been caught using an illegal immigrant as a nanny or house cleaner.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/05/ice-raids-ohio-lawn-and-garden-business-arrests-114.html


caffeine

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2032 on: June 19, 2018, 04:18:05 PM »

I don't understand why this is even "news." It happened before

No, it didn't.  UNACCOMPANIED minors were housed until the government could figure out what to do with them.  Some minors were detained WITH THEIR PARENTS.  Unless you can cite a legitimate source, saying "it happened before" is a lie.

This is my understanding based on speaking with people knowledgeable:

It hasn't just happened before, but it is US Policy. The issue is enforcement is up due to zero tolerance established by the Trump Administration. Separation's of families are a byproduct of being charged and arrested. Parents are arrested and await their court date, and children can not serve time in a federal detention facility. Children are placed in care of Health and Human Service which has a refugee office. They'll attempt to find a next of kin. If one is not found, the children are placed in a temporary foster situation and put in a child centers (renovated areas to accommodate the influx - Walmart's, Military Bases).

Previous administrations typically followed a "catch and release" where the immigrants are caught, issued a court date, and released on their own recognizance. In almost every case, they never appear at the immigration court date. However, Trump Administration is strong opposing this practice. Hence, families are being separated.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2033 on: June 19, 2018, 04:48:47 PM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.


Release the children to what end? I disagree that we should open the border and let in everyone that wants in. That went on for too long and is not sustainable. The President got elected because he wants to put America First. Remember he even discussed amnesty and a path to citizenship for a large portion of the Dreamers but other politicians and judges intervened on that. Yes, separated children is sad but the open invitation is OVER. I am more disappointed that they got across in the first place.

I have a feeling that you do not give an open invitation to homeless to your houses. It would be a financially bad decision and you do not know the people. Someone paid big money for that large convoy to go that far, follow the money trail to find the real repulsive monster, this crap show is exactly what they paid for.

Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

They have excused staunch racism, bigotry, sexual assault, amid a host of other immoral practices. Separating immigrant children from their parents is right on par for Trump and his ilk. Somehow homeless folks in America is akin to immigrants escaping persecution, abuse and often times murder. That's some fucked up mental gymnastics to excuse one's immorality.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 04:50:21 PM by MasterStache »

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2034 on: June 19, 2018, 05:19:52 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

It's more like tacit acceptance. Business owners, including wealthy landowners from New York, use illegal labor because it reduces costs. A lot of the yard work, construction, and farming, is done by immigrants.* Over the years, various politicians that have been anti-illegal-immigration have been caught using an illegal immigrant as a nanny or house cleaner.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/05/ice-raids-ohio-lawn-and-garden-business-arrests-114.html

It sounds really endemic.   Do illegal immigrants pay taxes on their income?

Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

StarBright

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2035 on: June 19, 2018, 05:29:47 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

It's more like tacit acceptance. Business owners, including wealthy landowners from New York, use illegal labor because it reduces costs. A lot of the yard work, construction, and farming, is done by immigrants.* Over the years, various politicians that have been anti-illegal-immigration have been caught using an illegal immigrant as a nanny or house cleaner.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/05/ice-raids-ohio-lawn-and-garden-business-arrests-114.html

It sounds really endemic.   Do illegal immigrants pay taxes on their income?

Some do and some don't. Many do not pay income or FICA taxes if they are working under the table. If they are using a stolen social security number then they do pay taxes. Apparently many people who work without a SSN also choose to voluntarily pay taxes (which was news to me!).

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 05:35:03 PM by StarBright »

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2036 on: June 19, 2018, 05:33:28 PM »
I'm always a little confused by this.   The US has always had immigration laws, policies and procedures.   It's not like the door was open for anyone to come in.    Why is there always this talk about letting everybody who wants to come in to the US, when it's not the case.    Is it just lax enforcement?

It's more like tacit acceptance. Business owners, including wealthy landowners from New York, use illegal labor because it reduces costs. A lot of the yard work, construction, and farming, is done by immigrants.* Over the years, various politicians that have been anti-illegal-immigration have been caught using an illegal immigrant as a nanny or house cleaner.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/05/ice-raids-ohio-lawn-and-garden-business-arrests-114.html

It sounds really endemic.   Do illegal immigrants pay taxes on their income?

Yes. Many do pay taxes. See:
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

Estimates put it in the billions of dollars of federal revenue each year.
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Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2037 on: June 19, 2018, 06:08:18 PM »



Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

Oh spare me. They came over here, crossed the border illegally, what the hell is the expected thing to do here? They are being processed. Now instead of being released to face a court date that never is gonna happen (lol on the idea that a person charged with crossing the border will even show up to that), they are being processed and hopefully deported as a family back to their country. The fact that there are thousands of families being caught up in this show what bullshit our system is and how we ended up with so many illegal immigrants.

And to the poster who asked where I got the hundreds of families being treated this way in the past, I'm not sure, I'll look.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 06:10:19 PM by Johnez »

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2038 on: June 19, 2018, 06:16:03 PM »
^^ I really am of the belief that people will justify anything, if they want to.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2039 on: June 19, 2018, 06:36:53 PM »
Look, I am a Democrat. I voted D all the way down in disgust with the R party here in Orange County-land of the Republicans in a sea  of blue. I was an R and they have systematically changed my mind to the left on almost every issue. I am willing to honestly discuss an issue and keep an open mind. I don't rationalize shit. I am of Mexican heritage and have family on my SOs side that have crossed illegally. I believe Trump is a racist dick nose. YET even I can place my emotions on the cooling rack to discuss whatever issue is at hand without thumbing my nose at whoever disagrees with me. That is the crux of the problem here in America with regards to politics these days-people have opinions and attacks. Illegal immigration is a massive problem as is evidenced by the fact that 2000 kids are now in cages. Time to address the issue.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2040 on: June 19, 2018, 07:09:09 PM »
Look, I am a Democrat. I voted D all the way down in disgust with the R party here in Orange County-land of the Republicans in a sea  of blue. I was an R and they have systematically changed my mind to the left on almost every issue. I am willing to honestly discuss an issue and keep an open mind. I don't rationalize shit. I am of Mexican heritage and have family on my SOs side that have crossed illegally. I believe Trump is a racist dick nose. YET even I can place my emotions on the cooling rack to discuss whatever issue is at hand without thumbing my nose at whoever disagrees with me. That is the crux of the problem here in America with regards to politics these days-people have opinions and attacks. Illegal immigration is a massive problem as is evidenced by the fact that 2000 kids are now in cages. Time to address the issue.

What exactly are you pissed about? It sure seems like you are justifying the separation of kids from parents because they decided to cross illegally. I see it as two separate issues. Sending parents back "where they came from" while their kids remain in a cage isn't some form of reighteous punishment. It's fucking disgusting.

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2041 on: June 19, 2018, 07:26:14 PM »
Some additional detail on what the Zero Tolerance policy changed:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/06/zero-tolerance-immigration-primer

Quote
If this mother and 2 children were apprehended prior to ZT [zero tolerance], they were taken to a detention center along the border. There are many such centers in southern Texas, southern AZ and southern CA. The parents and children were not separated for any appreciable length of time. Never. Anybody who says different is misinformed. Or lying. Your mileage may vary. If the parent stated that she wanted asylum, she was given what is called a Credible Fear Interview, in which she detailed the reasons for leaving El Salvador. The purpose of the CFI is not to finally adjudicate whether to grant asylum – that is done by an immigration judge or by USCIS. If the CFI states that there is no credible fear of return to your home country, you are deported. If after the interview, it is determined that you have a credible fear of returning to your country, then you are given a Notice to Appear that is the document that begins the immigration court process. It states that you are not a US Citizen or legal permanent resident, you are not here under a visa, you are a citizen of El Salvador, and you are removeable under the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA). Asylum is a defense to removal in immigration court. An asylum-seeker files form I-589, along with as much evidence as she can obtain to support the asylum claim. The immigration judge determines whether to grant asylum or deny. Denial means removal, aka deportation.
[...]
Now, under ZT, the administration is criminally charging the parents and using that as the facade to separate the children from the parents. Obviously, if someone is arrested for suspicion of a crime, and he/she has children, that person is separated from the children. So that is how they are accomplishing the separations – by criminally indicting the parents. A first unlawful entry into the US is a misdemeanor, lesser penalty than possession of a small amount of marijuana for personal use. So no prior administration took the step of criminally prosecuting these people, and especially not for the express purpose of separating the families as a deterrent to future immigrants as the administration admits it is doing.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2042 on: June 19, 2018, 07:35:18 PM »
Thank you. The HuffPo article I read detailed the separation of children from parents and almost as a footnote noted that *some* parents are being deported without their kids. Just read the NYT article on that- I agree it's effing disgusting and the administration has the power to keep the family together but chooses not to but instead places the family on separate legal tracks, while rushing the parents to deportation and keeping the kids here is unconscionable.

It was my understanding that the simple act or separating the kids from their parents was what the outrage was about. It was probably accomplished by Sessions or a spokes-hole stating that standard criminal processing kinda goes this way-ya take parents to jail and place the kids somewhere. I guess I got Hoodwinked on politicians reframing the issue...

I've been skimming news lately and most outrage seemed directed at the keeping the kids in cages and whatnot. That's bad, but deporting the parents without their kids sounds outrageous and stupid and pointless.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 07:41:23 PM by Johnez »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2043 on: June 19, 2018, 07:38:22 PM »
Some additional detail on what the Zero Tolerance policy changed:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/06/zero-tolerance-immigration-primer

Quote
If this mother and 2 children were apprehended prior to ZT [zero tolerance], they were taken to a detention center along the border. There are many such centers in southern Texas, southern AZ and southern CA. The parents and children were not separated for any appreciable length of time. Never. Anybody who says different is misinformed. Or lying. Your mileage may vary. If the parent stated that she wanted asylum, she was given what is called a Credible Fear Interview, in which she detailed the reasons for leaving El Salvador. The purpose of the CFI is not to finally adjudicate whether to grant asylum – that is done by an immigration judge or by USCIS. If the CFI states that there is no credible fear of return to your home country, you are deported. If after the interview, it is determined that you have a credible fear of returning to your country, then you are given a Notice to Appear that is the document that begins the immigration court process. It states that you are not a US Citizen or legal permanent resident, you are not here under a visa, you are a citizen of El Salvador, and you are removeable under the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA). Asylum is a defense to removal in immigration court. An asylum-seeker files form I-589, along with as much evidence as she can obtain to support the asylum claim. The immigration judge determines whether to grant asylum or deny. Denial means removal, aka deportation.
[...]
Now, under ZT, the administration is criminally charging the parents and using that as the facade to separate the children from the parents. Obviously, if someone is arrested for suspicion of a crime, and he/she has children, that person is separated from the children. So that is how they are accomplishing the separations – by criminally indicting the parents. A first unlawful entry into the US is a misdemeanor, lesser penalty than possession of a small amount of marijuana for personal use. So no prior administration took the step of criminally prosecuting these people, and especially not for the express purpose of separating the families as a deterrent to future immigrants as the administration admits it is doing.

This is also the footnote on how the current administration is claiming that the policy was there before. the policy was that people who are criminally indicted are separated (duh!). The indictment and separation here is disgusting abuse of prosecutorial discretion (aka, Jeff Sessions).

Speaking of Jeff Sessions, the members of his church just filed a formal complaint against him for basically being a bad Christian for being a part of this. 
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/19/jeff-sessions-church-members-over-600-sign-formal-/

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2044 on: June 19, 2018, 09:15:54 PM »
I posted this on Facebook today after becoming involved in a discussion where people were claiming that undocumented immigrants do not have any rights at all under the United States Constitution. If you're ever in a similar situation, the following links were provided to me by an attorney friend and may be useful to you as well:
http://www.nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-88-3-Moore.pdf
http://jaapl.org/content/45/3/365
https://rewire.news/ablc/2018/01/31/boom-lawyered-immigrant-constitutional-rights-edition/
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/533/678/case.html ("Once an alien enters the country, the legal circumstance changes, for the Due Process Clause applies to all persons within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent.")


Quote
It has come to my attention that certain people I interact with are under the mistaken assumption that the United States Constitution is wholly inapplicable to undocumented immigrants. This is WRONG. In fact, the United States Supreme Court has specifically decided otherwise on numerous occasions (on a timeline extending back to the 1800's). I have quoted relevant sections from several cases below, and a brief internet search for the case name will return the full court notes for your perusal. This information should be public knowledge. There is an academic article mentioned just below the Supreme Court cases that expounds further on this topic.

*****************************

US Supreme Court:
Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886)
The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens. It says: “Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.” These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws.

US Supreme Court:
Zadvydas v. Davis,
533 U.S. 678 (2001)
Once an alien enters the country, the legal circumstance changes, for the Due Process Clause applies to all persons within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent.

US Supreme Court:
Wong Wing v. United States
163 U.S. 228 (1896)
These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws." Applying this reasoning to the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to the protection guaranteed by those amendments, and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

US Supreme Court:
Plyler v. Doe (No. 80-1538)
457 U.S. 202
(a) The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a "person" in any ordinary sense of that term. This Court's prior cases recognizing that illegal aliens are "persons" protected by the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which Clauses do not include the phrase "within its jurisdiction," cannot be distinguished on the asserted ground that persons who have entered the country illegally are not "within the jurisdiction" of a State even if they are present within its boundaries and subject to its laws. Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory. Pp. 210-216.

*****************************

For even more information, please see this academic article authored by The Honorable Karen Nelson Moore, Judge, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, which may be found in full here.
http://www.nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-88-3-Moore.pdf

Note the section below specifically:

First, as James Madison’s writings on the Bill of Rights appear to have anticipated, aliens have rights under the Constitution. This is, in itself, remarkable and an important defining feature of our national identity: That this is a country that has long recognized such rights, and does so to this day, is something to be celebrated.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2045 on: June 20, 2018, 03:39:34 AM »
It has come to this:
Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/border-crossing-guatemalan-mom-sues-trump-admin-not-saying-where-n884821

So now the US keeps the children of immigrants in prison even after the parents are released from custody? What is happening right now in our country is so terrible that I am really just totally at a loss about what to say in the face of such immorality. It is the prison industrial complex gone insane.

For the record, I don't think adults seeking asylum or being charged with misdemeanors should ever be separated from their children in the first place.




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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2046 on: June 20, 2018, 05:11:22 AM »



Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

Oh spare me. They came over here, crossed the border illegally, what the hell is the expected thing to do here? They are being processed. Now instead of being released to face a court date that never is gonna happen (lol on the idea that a person charged with crossing the border will even show up to that), they are being processed and hopefully deported as a family back to their country. The fact that there are thousands of families being caught up in this show what bullshit our system is and how we ended up with so many illegal immigrants.

And to the poster who asked where I got the hundreds of families being treated this way in the past, I'm not sure, I'll look.

They did not. The children being separated from their parents' arms and thrown in cages have committed no crimes, because they're CHILDREN.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2047 on: June 20, 2018, 06:41:40 AM »



Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

Oh spare me. They came over here, crossed the border illegally, what the hell is the expected thing to do here? They are being processed. Now instead of being released to face a court date that never is gonna happen (lol on the idea that a person charged with crossing the border will even show up to that), they are being processed and hopefully deported as a family back to their country. The fact that there are thousands of families being caught up in this show what bullshit our system is and how we ended up with so many illegal immigrants.

And to the poster who asked where I got the hundreds of families being treated this way in the past, I'm not sure, I'll look.

They did not. The children being separated from their parents' arms and thrown in cages have committed no crimes, because they're CHILDREN.

Poor kids. I saw some of the pictures of these cages. Did you know that they don't even have the most current Play Station. Those children were stolen from Honduras and forced to play a Play Station 3. Conservatives are acting like these families came here illegally or something. I know if I brought my family to a foreign nation and ran across the border, they would at least give us a modern video gaming system and free health care. I cannot believe America just doesn't open the border to everyone since we have unlimited resources to give anyone. Republicans keep saying weird things like we need to "Vett" them or something. Who cares why they all want to come, everyone should be allowed in and bestowed all American rights (except the second amendment, since guns are so terrible), (and the first amendment if they are not Liberals, who wants a non-liberal to share an opinion right?)


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2048 on: June 20, 2018, 07:10:33 AM »



Remember this date. Remember it well as the day you defended separating children from their parents and holding them in cages. Because your descendants will, and they'll remember it with shame.

The Trump presidency has been a raging dumpster fire of everything that was once good about America, but this is low even for the current climate. What's going on now is unspeakable barbarism of a kind any decent human should abhor. There's no two sides on this one: this is morally vile and unspeakable, and no amount of obfuscation excuses it. This is a turning point in American history, a fundamental abandonment of any kind of decency, and people should think long and hard before deciding they're okay with ripping innocent children from their parents' arms and throwing them in cages.

Oh spare me. They came over here, crossed the border illegally, what the hell is the expected thing to do here? They are being processed. Now instead of being released to face a court date that never is gonna happen (lol on the idea that a person charged with crossing the border will even show up to that), they are being processed and hopefully deported as a family back to their country. The fact that there are thousands of families being caught up in this show what bullshit our system is and how we ended up with so many illegal immigrants.

And to the poster who asked where I got the hundreds of families being treated this way in the past, I'm not sure, I'll look.

They did not. The children being separated from their parents' arms and thrown in cages have committed no crimes, because they're CHILDREN.

Poor kids. I saw some of the pictures of these cages. Did you know that they don't even have the most current Play Station. Those children were stolen from Honduras and forced to play a Play Station 3. Conservatives are acting like these families came here illegally or something. I know if I brought my family to a foreign nation and ran across the border, they would at least give us a modern video gaming system and free health care. I cannot believe America just doesn't open the border to everyone since we have unlimited resources to give anyone. Republicans keep saying weird things like we need to "Vett" them or something. Who cares why they all want to come, everyone should be allowed in and bestowed all American rights (except the second amendment, since guns are so terrible), (and the first amendment if they are not Liberals, who wants a non-liberal to share an opinion right?)

Pathetic.

This is a moral stain on our country. And people like this are actually joking about it.

Honestly.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 08:13:51 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #2049 on: June 20, 2018, 07:26:31 AM »
This is just your daily reminder that Donald Trump is a repulsive human being.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-suggests-immigrant-kids-hes-holding-hostage-crisis-actors/
I don't understand why lawyers for the immigrants aren't using habeus corpus to get these kids out of detention.  And if the authorities fail to produce the kids, holding the Secretary for Homeland Security in contempt and putting her in gaol until the kids are freed.

Habeus Corpus doesn't apply to everyone.  Remember all the guys in Guantanamo Bay?

It didn't apply to Guantanamo Bay because that wasn't US sovereign territory.  These kids are being held in the USA and habeus corpus applies.

The United States retains complete jurisdiction and territorial control over Guantanamo Bay.  What exactly do you consider sovereignty?  Regardless of the answer to that question, America has illegally kidnapped people from around the world and held them under arrest with no hope of ever receiving a fair trial and no charges brought against them.

Trump is continuing similar US policy with the kidnapped children.  At least clear evidence of torture, rape, and murder has not yet been associated with the detained children.
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