Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 230493 times)

FIRE@50

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1950 on: June 15, 2018, 08:49:26 AM »
And the Thread goes, speculate on the Full Presidency. I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that. Yes, NYC AG just opened another lawsuit against the President and we will see where that goes. As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after, I like the outlook. As far as Pay to Play, I do not see the President assigning high ranking Government positions for personal financial decisions. Sure, I could be missing it but by all means let me know.

Securing the border is important to me. DACA was punt, admit it. A country is failing immigrants when it says "Come, stay, but the rest is up in the air". Open borderes and homelessness are somewhat related so before you demand that the borders are re-opened, discuss jobs and housing for everyone please. And Santuary Cities should never of happened.

I still stand behind Iran being significantly over priced, it funded Hamas and it seems Iran didn't even honor its side. I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction.

Moving the embassy, I know this angered many Liberals. Even Obama promised to do this but did not. I feel like it was over due and was happy so see another campaign promise fulfilled.

Tax cuts. I know this is a liberal rub and many liberal cities are looking for ways to absorb the "crumbs" that they feel the Americans never should have received. Conservatives like small government and lower taxes so I see this as a move in a good direction.

General Mattis at the Helm of the DoD! Love it! He is in no way a yes man and Trump knew that bringing him on board. He did so to get the best for a very important job.

He does spend more than the candidate I imagined wanting. The spending is for infrastructure and military and I agree with some but not all. America needs something better than ACA, it is not Affordable at current American Tax rates and its demise is escalated by the open borders policies. We should be able to accept refugees and asylum seekers into our country but only if we can actually provide assistance for them. If we let everyone in, documented or not, it ties our hands to actually help people.

This has nothing to do with politics/policy/tax code.

You are supporting a bigoted sexual predator. What the fuck is wrong with you?

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1951 on: June 15, 2018, 08:54:21 AM »
Conservatives like small government and lower taxes so I see this as a move in a good direction.

If this were true, the Republican controlled Senate and House wouldn't have increased the budget in the same session.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1952 on: June 15, 2018, 08:59:47 AM »
Securing the border is important to me. Why?  Is a Mexican taking your job?

I still stand behind Iran being significantly over priced, it funded Hamas and it seems Iran didn't even honor its side. I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction. Iran got rid of 98% of its uranium thus far.  The deal was working.  You are making outlandish claims.  Please cite.

Moving the embassy, I know this angered many Liberals. Even Obama promised to do this but did not. I feel like it was over due and was happy so see another campaign promise fulfilled. 55 Palestinian protesters were killed by Israel in response to the move.  55 dead all to own the libs.  Look at you.

Tax cuts. I know this is a liberal rub and many liberal cities are looking for ways to absorb the "crumbs" that they feel the Americans never should have received. Conservatives like small government and lower taxes so I see this as a move in a good direction. Are you a fiscal conservative?  $1.5 trillion was borrowed from the future (read: adding to the deficit) all so the top 1% could reap 83% of the benefits.  The rich get vastly more richer.  All at a time of a steady economy.  Please explain the logic.


See bold.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1953 on: June 15, 2018, 09:00:40 AM »
Conservatives like small government and lower taxes so I see this as a move in a good direction.

If this were true, the Republican controlled Senate and House wouldn't have increased the budget in the same session.

"Fiscal conservatives" do not exist.  It was a ruse.
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Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1954 on: June 15, 2018, 09:04:09 AM »
Disclaimer: these are my own private opinions and not the general opinions of Canadians.

What might Hilary have done differently than Donny?  Not made Canadians want to build their own border wall, maybe?  Or think retroactively that when 9/11 happened, we should have declared all your planes "security compromised" and not let them land here?

However I think a lot of Canadians are royally pissed that your President is hiding his trade tariffs behind "Canadian security risks" instead of just doing them - we know he is putting pressure on the NAFTA discussions, he has said so himself, but this security risk crap?  Is crap.  Too bad it wasn't Canadians* who burned the White House way back when, after American soldiers occupied British Canada's territory.**

*There was no Canada back then, we were still colonies.
**He seems to have a weak grasp of American history.

And a weak grasp of American contemporaneity.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1955 on: June 15, 2018, 09:08:07 AM »
I voted for Obama the first time. Not the second, I did not like his priorities. I disagreed with things that he did, and some that he didn't do. Some things I liked. The Liberals today have lost that concept and look for things to claim as victories for them and failures for the President. By all means, support Clinton. I just did not see any substance in her campaign and did not appreciate her using the Secretary of State position to line the monetary coffers of her "Foundation". I am interested in what you think she would have done better for America.

Her Foundation has never faced a lawsuit or criminal charges.  Trump's "Foundation", whose Board has not met since 1999, is currently in that predicament.  So don't bullshit "both sides" this.  One Foundation is corrupt.  One is not.

Well for starters, I don't believe Clinton would have engaged the U.S. in a trade war with multiple nations.  The effects remain to be seen, but rising prices are almost certainly on the way.

She would not have embarrassed the U.S. on a global stage.  She almost certainly would not be engaging juvenile twitter battles with ALLIES.  She would not have brought us to the brink of a nuclear war via twitter.

We would have stayed in the Paris Climate Accord, which is necessary for the survival of the planet.  Instead of gutting public parks and public land for oil production.  The EPA would not be a hotbed for corruption but instead actually working to protect the environment and working to reduce carbon emissions in the future.

We wouldn't have borrowed $1.5 trillion from the future to save the top 1% a bunch in taxes.

Charlottesville likely wouldn't have happened and even if it did, "both sides" would not have been blamed.

Merrick Garland (or someone of his ilk) would have been rightly confirmed to the SCOTUS.

The country's national security adviser would not have been a compromised foreign agent of Russia.

DACA would not have been rescinded.

The Iran deal would still be in place.

Ultimately though, you're asking me an impossible "What if?" question.  I can't possibly know how the first 500 days of a Clinton Administration would have played out.  But almost certainly we would be more respected on a global stage (most importantly, with our allies), we would not see the undermining of the rule of law and attempts to discredit the DOJ, we likely would have seen attempts made to keep Russia from meddling in future elections (spoiler - Trump has done nothing for this), and the free press would not be under fire daily for publishing stories the administration doesn't like.
I think one of the simpler What Ifs would have been if the situation was reversed and Trump had lost.

I think we still would have been seeing all the Twitter complaining just about how the election was stolen from him.  Clinton has been nothing but gracious and lost and moved on.  Trump would be two years on lamenting how he was robbed.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1956 on: June 15, 2018, 09:09:30 AM »
And the Thread goes, speculate on the Full Presidency. I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that. Yes, NYC AG just opened another lawsuit against the President and we will see where that goes. As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after, I like the outlook. As far as Pay to Play, I do not see the President assigning high ranking Government positions for personal financial decisions. Sure, I could be missing it but by all means let me know.

Given "[you] have the advantage of neutrality" I'm surprised you've already determined who you will support in the next election.

Chris22

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1957 on: June 15, 2018, 09:14:56 AM »

I think we still would have been seeing all the Twitter complaining just about how the election was stolen from him.  Clinton has been nothing but gracious and lost and moved on.  Trump would be two years on lamenting how he was robbed.

You mean except for writing an entire book blaming everyone under the sun for her loss, right? 

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/11/hillary-clinton-trump-move-on-216961
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caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1958 on: June 15, 2018, 09:17:24 AM »
General Mattis at the Helm of the DoD! Love it! He is in no way a yes man and Trump knew that bringing him on board. He did so to get the best for a very important job.
I'll start by stating I'm a conservative as well.

He made one qualified selection for his entire cabinet and this is something to cheer about?!  And this after someone else he appointed in that role is now under investigation for illegal activities (Flynn).?!

Judging his presidency by the cherry picked good points that happen among all the dung that surrounds it is like saying "This cow pasture is really the cleanest thing I've ever seen!  After all look at this circle on the bottom of my sole that is nice a clean!" while ignoring the entire rest of the shoe covered in cow manure.  For me with Trump the bad far, far outweighs the good.  And even the good that is done, is done is such a slapdash and disgusting manner that it is an embarrassment to the process.  I for one would prefer not to have our president do his job with the main motto being "the ends justifies the means".  It's a dumpster fire every time on the way to something somewhat helpful happening.  There is a better way.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 09:20:40 AM by caracarn »

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1959 on: June 15, 2018, 09:27:53 AM »
Securing the border is important to me. Why?  Is a Mexican taking your job?

I still stand behind Iran being significantly over priced, it funded Hamas and it seems Iran didn't even honor its side. I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction. Iran got rid of 98% of its uranium thus far.  The deal was working.  You are making outlandish claims.  Please cite.

Moving the embassy, I know this angered many Liberals. Even Obama promised to do this but did not. I feel like it was over due and was happy so see another campaign promise fulfilled. 55 Palestinian protesters were killed by Israel in response to the move.  55 dead all to own the libs.  Look at you.

Tax cuts. I know this is a liberal rub and many liberal cities are looking for ways to absorb the "crumbs" that they feel the Americans never should have received. Conservatives like small government and lower taxes so I see this as a move in a good direction. Are you a fiscal conservative?  $1.5 trillion was borrowed from the future (read: adding to the deficit) all so the top 1% could reap 83% of the benefits.  The rich get vastly more richer.  All at a time of a steady economy.  Please explain the logic.


See bold.

Nobody is taking my job. Funny that so many liberals don't even care about the human trafficking aspect of Open Borders policies. Secured Borders does not equate to no immigrants. Taking an all or none approach is a bad idea. I know you don't openly invite the homeless into your house, but that is not to say you are not against helping them. Citizens first, enforce existing laws and work towards enduring laws that help immigrants. Inviting everyone, then trying to figure out what to do with them is stupid and ineffective.

I cannot find any Liberal Protests when Obama promised to move the embassy. In fact, he was cheered on to do so. The fact that Palestinians died is sad, and the decades long war in that region is a cause for concern. Your sales pitch of the President shooting 55 people with picket signs however, does not paint a reasonable picture. Perhaps the move and recognition of Jerusalem will help end the decades of fighting over it. Maybe that is why so many Presidents and Presidential Candidates have "promised" to uphold this decades old move. Look back to when the land for the embassy was actually purchased. This was not something that Trump just decided to do on his own.

I cannot cite a reference for Iran's Uranium and nuclear weapons reduction. Neither can the UN or the Government because the facilities are not "Inspectable" as per Obama's Iran deal. Nor, do we know how many billions were sent there in unmarked currency, also by Obama's design. Considering that Obama's entire administration when questioned, all plead the 5th amendment, We the People will likely never know.

Please cite the reference that the 83% of the 1.5 Trillion went to the top 1%. From what I read, much went to infrastructure and other efforts to fix the Obama mistakes. I even said in my post that the spending is more than I wanted. And in most Conservative circles it is a cause for discontent. I would like to see spending reduced. The difference between us though, is my preference for Government spending is not dependent of the sitting President. It is funny to hear a liberal complain of National Debt.

Again, I am looking ahead and trying to stay on the topic of the overall outcome of a full Trump Presidency. 


former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1960 on: June 15, 2018, 09:29:57 AM »
I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that.
.
In post 1942 you said "I have the advantage of neutrality".  Now you are a conservative?

As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after,

Four more full terms for Trump?  Is changing the Constitution in that way a conservative aim?  Or are you thinking coup?

I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction.
I don't understand how you can describe unilateral withdrawal from an agreement without any prior attempt to re-negotiate as "diplomacy".  And can you explain how unilateral withdrawal makes a nuclear Iran less likely?


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ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1961 on: June 15, 2018, 09:36:38 AM »
General Mattis at the Helm of the DoD! Love it! He is in no way a yes man and Trump knew that bringing him on board. He did so to get the best for a very important job.
I'll start by stating I'm a conservative as well.

He made one qualified selection for his entire cabinet and this is something to cheer about?!  And this after someone else he appointed in that role is now under investigation for illegal activities (Flynn).?!

Judging his presidency by the cherry picked good points that happen among all the dung that surrounds it is like saying "This cow pasture is really the cleanest thing I've ever seen!  After all look at this circle on the bottom of my sole that is nice a clean!" while ignoring the entire rest of the shoe covered in cow manure.  For me with Trump the bad far, far outweighs the good.  And even the good that is done, is done is such a slapdash and disgusting manner that it is an embarrassment to the process.  I for one would prefer not to have our president do his job with the main motto being "the ends justifies the means".  It's a dumpster fire every time on the way to something somewhat helpful happening.  There is a better way.


I am surprised at the number of people against Ben Carson, Mike Pence and Nikki Haley. There are more that I think are doing a great job though. 

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1962 on: June 15, 2018, 09:45:36 AM »
I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that.
.
In post 1942 you said "I have the advantage of neutrality".  Now you are a conservative?

As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after,

Four more full terms for Trump?  Is changing the Constitution in that way a conservative aim?  Or are you thinking coup?

I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction.
I don't understand how you can describe unilateral withdrawal from an agreement without any prior attempt to re-negotiate as "diplomacy".  And can you explain how unilateral withdrawal makes a nuclear Iran less likely?


Oh you got me big time Mr. Grammer Police! Kudos. By 4 more I was referring to 4 more years after his current term, not 4 more terms. Excellent catch on my complete lack of clarification.

Yes, I am now a Conservative. I voted for Obama and supported him through the first 4 years but did not like the direction he was bringing the Country. I was not a Democrat but I like the talk of the Nation that he originally suggested working towards. He drew too many fake lines, and folded like a lawn chair when other countries got aggressive. He spent Trillions with nothing to show for it and now America needs to rebound, and can only do so on the backs of Conservatives. Again, I had hoped that Trump would have done more to attempt a balance budget.

Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program. I know the Liberal love for Iran, I don't understand it, especially seeing how Liberals are equally as angry at the President for his progress with denuclearizing NK. Aside from NK didn't require Billion dollar shipments. Not to mention Kerry was caught "Negotiating" with Iran behind the back of the US government.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1963 on: June 15, 2018, 09:49:06 AM »
General Mattis at the Helm of the DoD! Love it! He is in no way a yes man and Trump knew that bringing him on board. He did so to get the best for a very important job.
I'll start by stating I'm a conservative as well.

He made one qualified selection for his entire cabinet and this is something to cheer about?!  And this after someone else he appointed in that role is now under investigation for illegal activities (Flynn).?!

Judging his presidency by the cherry picked good points that happen among all the dung that surrounds it is like saying "This cow pasture is really the cleanest thing I've ever seen!  After all look at this circle on the bottom of my sole that is nice a clean!" while ignoring the entire rest of the shoe covered in cow manure.  For me with Trump the bad far, far outweighs the good.  And even the good that is done, is done is such a slapdash and disgusting manner that it is an embarrassment to the process.  I for one would prefer not to have our president do his job with the main motto being "the ends justifies the means".  It's a dumpster fire every time on the way to something somewhat helpful happening.  There is a better way.


I am surprised at the number of people against Ben Carson, Mike Pence and Nikki Haley. There are more that I think are doing a great job though.

That you think Ben Carson is doing a great job is laughable.

Mike Pence: well, he is what he is. A mostly-silent yes-man who gives evangelicals cover in their claims that Trump, despite being one of the most immoral creatures I have ever seen in DC, is some sort of Christian.

Nikki Haley: She is doing a very competent job. I'm honestly surprised Trump hasn't fired her yet.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1964 on: June 15, 2018, 09:49:24 AM »
A witch is going to jail.  Paul Manafort headed to prison.
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Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1965 on: June 15, 2018, 09:52:16 AM »
I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that.
.
In post 1942 you said "I have the advantage of neutrality".  Now you are a conservative?

As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after,

Four more full terms for Trump?  Is changing the Constitution in that way a conservative aim?  Or are you thinking coup?

I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction.
I don't understand how you can describe unilateral withdrawal from an agreement without any prior attempt to re-negotiate as "diplomacy".  And can you explain how unilateral withdrawal makes a nuclear Iran less likely?


Oh you got me big time Mr. Grammer Police! Kudos. By 4 more I was referring to 4 more years after his current term, not 4 more terms. Excellent catch on my complete lack of clarification.

Yes, I am now a Conservative. I voted for Obama and supported him through the first 4 years but did not like the direction he was bringing the Country. I was not a Democrat but I like the talk of the Nation that he originally suggested working towards. He drew too many fake lines, and folded like a lawn chair when other countries got aggressive. He spent Trillions with nothing to show for it and now America needs to rebound, and can only do so on the backs of Conservatives. Again, I had hoped that Trump would have done more to attempt a balance budget.

Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program. I know the Liberal love for Iran, I don't understand it, especially seeing how Liberals are equally as angry at the President for his progress with denuclearizing NK. Aside from NK didn't require Billion dollar shipments. Not to mention Kerry was caught "Negotiating" with Iran behind the back of the US government.

Are you confusing "conservative" with "republican"? I don't see why you would change your political philosophy based on the actions of the democratic party and the president they put in pffice.

Is it possible you changed your primary news sources during Obama's first term? That would explain a lot.

Regarding drone strikes... that's not true? I don't know how else to respond.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 09:54:42 AM by Dabnasty »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1966 on: June 15, 2018, 09:54:49 AM »
General Mattis at the Helm of the DoD! Love it! He is in no way a yes man and Trump knew that bringing him on board. He did so to get the best for a very important job.
I'll start by stating I'm a conservative as well.

He made one qualified selection for his entire cabinet and this is something to cheer about?!  And this after someone else he appointed in that role is now under investigation for illegal activities (Flynn).?!

Judging his presidency by the cherry picked good points that happen among all the dung that surrounds it is like saying "This cow pasture is really the cleanest thing I've ever seen!  After all look at this circle on the bottom of my sole that is nice a clean!" while ignoring the entire rest of the shoe covered in cow manure.  For me with Trump the bad far, far outweighs the good.  And even the good that is done, is done is such a slapdash and disgusting manner that it is an embarrassment to the process.  I for one would prefer not to have our president do his job with the main motto being "the ends justifies the means".  It's a dumpster fire every time on the way to something somewhat helpful happening.  There is a better way.


I am surprised at the number of people against Ben Carson, Mike Pence and Nikki Haley. There are more that I think are doing a great job though.

Ben Carson  may have been a talented neurosurgeon, but beyond that appears to be incompetent (we can start with pyramids to hold grain, and finsh with helping the poor by raising their rent). Mike Pence I disagree on primarily based on his persistent marginalization of the LGBTQ portion of our society and inability to simply treat women as normal human beings. Nikki Haley I hope comes out of this somewhat clean. I am not a conservative, but I think that the conservative portion of our country deserves good representation. I hope she is the wing of the GOP that survives the current debacle.
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bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1967 on: June 15, 2018, 09:59:24 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1968 on: June 15, 2018, 10:01:04 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

Exactly. I was furious about it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1969 on: June 15, 2018, 10:01:13 AM »
Paying 2.8 million plus penalties isn't going to be a problem for Trump et al.

It's a nothing burger CNN headline - and I mean nothing for *this* President. Of course it would have sunk anyone else, but his voters don't care that he's operated an illegal charity.

It is a shame he was not able to operate his charity with the ethics, professionalism and grace of the Clinton Foundation. Her voters were much more caring and astute.

What law did the Clinton Foundation violate?  Go.


I am not a lawyer. I am unaware of charges on either side of the house. I just know from the IRS balance sheets @ http://seriousgivers.org/trump-and-clinton-foundation-tax-returns-are-easy-to-find/
Both Foundations in 2014 did not pay out very much. Personally I think they are both pretty crooked and as an independent, neither are Foundations to be proud of.
Trump's Foundation is small with total assets of under 2 million on the 2014 statements. This is what the Liberal army is up in arms over and the fact that he did not allocate his foundation's assets generously.
Clinton's Foundation is 332 Million for the same time period and the grants paid are 5.2 million. Now the salaries, benefits and expenses are almost 100 million. Considering these funds came from donations, it doesn't seem like the right people are seeing the money. Especially seeing that most of the remaining rolled over.

I get that many of you are Never-Trumpers. And I am ok with that. But to grab a pitch fork and think that the Trump Foundation is the smoking gun that you all have been waiting for, might just be a weak argument in the large scale of government ethics breaches.

@ematicic , FWIW I looked into this last year and most of the Clinton foundations charity work is not through grants but done directly in house so it is covered as program expenses and salaries (ie. they pay the people on the ground) and not grants. hope this helps.

Here is a good explanation of it:
https://www.factcheck.org/2015/06/where-does-clinton-foundation-money-go/

It helps. But a study of "One independent philanthropy watchdog" doesn't really give me the confidence in this organization. I will admit that this statistics provided make this organization look very professional and generous. But the IRS form I showed earlier breaks down the salaries and many of the huge salaries go to people as returned favors, hence her Pay to Play tactics.

Also, a fun article covering roughly the same time frame is:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37826098
This is great showing how the Clinton's tag-teamed to profit off the Haitian earth quake.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1970 on: June 15, 2018, 10:01:30 AM »
I cannot cite a reference for Iran's Uranium and nuclear weapons reduction. Neither can the UN or the Government because the facilities are not "Inspectable" as per Obama's Iran deal. Nor, do we know how many billions were sent there in unmarked currency, also by Obama's design. Considering that Obama's entire administration when questioned, all plead the 5th amendment, We the People will likely never know.

Please cite the reference that the 83% of the 1.5 Trillion went to the top 1%. From what I read, much went to infrastructure and other efforts to fix the Obama mistakes. I even said in my post that the spending is more than I wanted. And in most Conservative circles it is a cause for discontent. I would like to see spending reduced. The difference between us though, is my preference for Government spending is not dependent of the sitting President. It is funny to hear a liberal complain of National Debt.

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/iaea-director-general%E2%80%99s-statement-iran

^Are you familiar with the IAEA?

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/distributional-analysis-conference-agreement-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act

Quote
As a result, nearly 83 percent of all the benefits of the TCJA in 2027 would go to the top 1 percent of households.”

Quote
From what I read, much went to infrastructure and other efforts to fix the Obama mistakes.

What are you talking about?

Quote
It is funny to hear a liberal complain of National Debt

Why?  The national debt exploded under Bush.  Do conservatives no longer consider it a "national security issue?"  I can't keep up when the national debt is actually important or not to you guys.  Please clarify.
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JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1971 on: June 15, 2018, 10:05:50 AM »
I get that I am a conservative minority here and I am ok with that.
.
In post 1942 you said "I have the advantage of neutrality".  Now you are a conservative?

As for the Full Term, and hopefully 4 more after,

Four more full terms for Trump?  Is changing the Constitution in that way a conservative aim?  Or are you thinking coup?

I believe President Trump's Diplomacy pertaining to the Iran Deal is the right direction.
I don't understand how you can describe unilateral withdrawal from an agreement without any prior attempt to re-negotiate as "diplomacy".  And can you explain how unilateral withdrawal makes a nuclear Iran less likely?


Oh you got me big time Mr. Grammer Police! Kudos. By 4 more I was referring to 4 more years after his current term, not 4 more terms. Excellent catch on my complete lack of clarification.

Yes, I am now a Conservative. I voted for Obama and supported him through the first 4 years but did not like the direction he was bringing the Country. I was not a Democrat but I like the talk of the Nation that he originally suggested working towards. He drew too many fake lines, and folded like a lawn chair when other countries got aggressive. He spent Trillions with nothing to show for it and now America needs to rebound, and can only do so on the backs of Conservatives. Again, I had hoped that Trump would have done more to attempt a balance budget.

Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program. I know the Liberal love for Iran, I don't understand it, especially seeing how Liberals are equally as angry at the President for his progress with denuclearizing NK. Aside from NK didn't require Billion dollar shipments. Not to mention Kerry was caught "Negotiating" with Iran behind the back of the US government.

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1972 on: June 15, 2018, 10:07:25 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

Liberal outrage is generally very selective. Look at the "Russian" thread you guys feel so passionately about. The passion is a direct reflection of your Hatred for the sitting President, not necessarily a passion for global ethics. I think if Liberals were not so biased more would have been outraged when Obama watched Russia invade Crimea. No one thought enough of that world event to even start a new thread, although I thought that, and the chemical weapons in Syria were exponentially more important than the things that create outrage today. Not a liberal peep, no outrage for Obama's invisible line. I could not believe it was happening and was enough for me to shift into gear and look for a world leader that would chose action over empty words. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1973 on: June 15, 2018, 10:08:23 AM »
Manafort is likely going to prison this Friday until his July 25th trial (provided he doesn't flip) and Cohen should be arrested before the week is over.  What a day!

-Manafort to prison until trial
-Trump Foundation sued by NY AG
-Cohen no longer Trump's attorney (flipping?)
-Kim Jong-un is a great and respected leader in North Korea
-The Bible says to separate children from their parents at the border

What a week.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1974 on: June 15, 2018, 10:16:45 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

Liberal outrage is generally very selective. Look at the "Russian" thread you guys feel so passionately about. The passion is a direct reflection of your Hatred for the sitting President, not necessarily a passion for global ethics. I think if Liberals were not so biased more would have been outraged when Obama watched Russia invade Crimea. No one thought enough of that world event to even start a new thread, although I thought that, and the chemical weapons in Syria were exponentially more important than the things that create outrage today. Not a liberal peep, no outrage for Obama's invisible line. I could not believe it was happening and was enough for me to shift into gear and look for a world leader that would chose action over empty words.

Faux News reporting on liberals is not "liberal outrage."  You're painting a broad brush.

As for the bolded:

Quote
“We are going to convene my top generals and give them a simple instruction. They will have 30 days to submit to the Oval Office a plan for soundly and quickly defeating ISIS. We have no choice.”

Quote
"I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth."

Quote
"I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world. Nobody knows more about taxes."

Quote
"Nobody knows banking better than I do"

Quote
"I used to be, George, the fair-haired boy — you know, when I was a contributor. I know more about contributions than anybody."

Quote
"Nobody knows politicians better than Donald Trump."

Quote
"Nobody knows more about trade than me."

Quote
"Nobody in the history of this country has ever known so much about infrastructure as Donald Trump."

Quote
"There's nobody bigger or better at the military than I am."

Quote
"I know more about ISIS [the Islamic State militant group] than the generals do. Believe me."

Quote
"There is nobody who understands the horror of nuclear more than me."

You fell for a blowhard.
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JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1975 on: June 15, 2018, 10:22:32 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

Liberal outrage is generally very selective. Look at the "Russian" thread you guys feel so passionately about. The passion is a direct reflection of your Hatred for the sitting President, not necessarily a passion for global ethics. I think if Liberals were not so biased more would have been outraged when Obama watched Russia invade Crimea. No one thought enough of that world event to even start a new thread, although I thought that, and the chemical weapons in Syria were exponentially more important than the things that create outrage today. Not a liberal peep, no outrage for Obama's invisible line. I could not believe it was happening and was enough for me to shift into gear and look for a world leader that would chose action over empty words.

LOL.  How people forget...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueMAVQ3-A0

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1976 on: June 15, 2018, 10:26:13 AM »
One worrying trend that has been going on for generations is the expansion of executive power, which accelerated greatly after WWII and the nuclear/cold war strategies that followed. One hope I had was that the election of Trump would finally align congress to curtail the executive. This has bothered me under all previous administrations. Line item vetoes, inclusion of signing statements in the congressional record, bypassing congress while going to war (the Bush Sr example from Kuwait was properly done), and overall increasing secrecy.

Congress, with some exceptions, has largely left Trump to do as he pleases. Mitch McConnell has steadily quashed any attempts to do so in the Senate. Paul Ryan has been a doormat. Trump is showing increasing love of and characteristics of authoritarians. He demands loyalty to HIM (not the constitution or country, but to him). Remember those conversations with Comey and others? This is not in dispute. He loves the idea of Xi being president for life in China. Just this morning on Fox and Friends, Trump praised Kim for how when he speaks his people do what he says and how he wants that. If it was a one-off, then I could buy that it was a poorly worded statement. However, I think that there is a clear pattern here and if he had the opportunity to be a dictator he would grab that brass ring.

Many may agree with specific policy issues of the Trump administration. That is fine. People can agree on policy. However, our country was specifically set up to have a limited executive and not have a King or equivalent. To excuse that, or turn a blind eye to that is to be fundamentally unpatriotic in my mind.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1977 on: June 15, 2018, 10:34:13 AM »
Yes, Donny wants to be the Supreme Leader, the King of the United States for life and then his sons would take over rule once he kicks the bucket.

Does anyone speculate that there is some neurological problem with him. I read some articles on it and some people do think he has issues. There was that time he was giving a speech and he slurred his words. Another time when he grasped a small glass of water with both hands to drink from it. They say he used to speak more intelligently and now struggles with stringing a paragraph together. He repeats himself constantly.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1978 on: June 15, 2018, 10:41:39 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1979 on: June 15, 2018, 10:54:30 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1980 on: June 15, 2018, 11:07:36 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

This thread isn't about Obama and several folks have come out to point out your false accusation thus making your subsequently claim invalid still. You are just further proving my point. You can even ask who had a problem with it. I realize that doesn't fit your preconceived conclusion about "all" liberals though.

ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1981 on: June 15, 2018, 11:16:10 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

This thread isn't about Obama and several folks have come out to point out your false accusation thus making your subsequently claim invalid still. You are just further proving my point. You can even ask who had a problem with it. I realize that doesn't fit your preconceived conclusion about "all" liberals though.

Well I apologize for being unsuccessful in finding the Drone and Chemical Weapons discussions and am pleased to know that you also took issue with them. I will continue to focus on what I think will be a positive Presidential term and relevant speculations based on current events. I realize I am against the grain here and will discuss things I have read, heard and interpreted. I am fine being wrong sometimes. I don't look to hold only company that I agree with and I do like that most of you debate on a very rational and educated basis. Cheers!

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1982 on: June 15, 2018, 11:18:17 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

This thread isn't about Obama and several folks have come out to point out your false accusation thus making your subsequently claim invalid still. You are just further proving my point. You can even ask who had a problem with it. I realize that doesn't fit your preconceived conclusion about "all" liberals though.

Well I apologize for being unsuccessful in finding the Drone and Chemical Weapons discussions and am pleased to know that you also took issue with them. I will continue to focus on what I think will be a positive Presidential term and relevant speculations based on current events. I realize I am against the grain here and will discuss things I have read, heard and interpreted. I am fine being wrong sometimes. I don't look to hold only company that I agree with and I do like that most of you debate on a very rational and educated basis. Cheers!

I'm not 100% positive that looking on a forum that is primarily about personal finance/early retirement is the best place to find posts about what "all liberals" think about Obama's use of drones.

If you'd wanted to know what the liberals who frequent this forum and actually read the Off Topic section think about it, though... you could ask?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1983 on: June 15, 2018, 11:55:58 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

Have you considered the time frame? The number of users on this forum has grown significantly over the years and I suspect in the early years there was a concentrated focus on finance. The forum didn't even exist until what, 2012? Politics in general just wasn't discussed to the degree it is now. I see zero meaning in the fact that there is no thread regarding Obama's drone strikes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1984 on: June 16, 2018, 08:06:09 AM »
Re Conservatives and fiscal conservatism, in Canada the only fiscally conservative party (according to policy statements) is the Green Party.  Because wanting to conserve resources includes finances.   All the other parties just differ in how they want to spend taxpayer money, and who will benefit.  I imagine it is much the same in the US. 
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

toganet

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1985 on: June 18, 2018, 07:51:13 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

This thread isn't about Obama and several folks have come out to point out your false accusation thus making your subsequently claim invalid still. You are just further proving my point. You can even ask who had a problem with it. I realize that doesn't fit your preconceived conclusion about "all" liberals though.

Well I apologize for being unsuccessful in finding the Drone and Chemical Weapons discussions and am pleased to know that you also took issue with them. I will continue to focus on what I think will be a positive Presidential term and relevant speculations based on current events. I realize I am against the grain here and will discuss things I have read, heard and interpreted. I am fine being wrong sometimes. I don't look to hold only company that I agree with and I do like that most of you debate on a very rational and educated basis. Cheers!

I'm not 100% positive that looking on a forum that is primarily about personal finance/early retirement is the best place to find posts about what "all liberals" think about Obama's use of drones.

If you'd wanted to know what the liberals who frequent this forum and actually read the Off Topic section think about it, though... you could ask?

I found one example of a self-described "liberal" complaining about the continued drone strikes during Obama's administration: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachianism-as-libertarian-or-progressive-or-a-little-of-both/

It seems political discussion in this forum did not really take off until Trump's candidacy, though I think there are likely multiple factors involved, including but not limited to the growth of this forum and the overall increased divisiveness and media polarization online and on TV.

As someone who voted for Obama both times but was especially upset with his continued use of drones and general continuation of Bush-era military and surveillance policies, I find it hard to follow the argument that if "liberals" weren't mad when Obama didn't invade Syria, they shouldn't be mad when Trump doesn't.  Trump hasn't taken action to get Russia out of Crimea (quite the opposite, actually) so how is that a ding against Obama?

I try to take a consistent position, based on the information available to me, guided by the principles and values I hold dear.  This means that when Russia invaded Crimea, I wanted to see action taken by Obama.  However, because I have seen the outcome of our "permanent war" I did not want to see deployment of troops -- especially directly against Russia, as I am not eager for WWIII.  So a reasonable action seemed to be a diplomatic one, something like sanctions and expulsion from the G8.  I felt like the actions Obama took then were reasonable, given the options available to him.  Would "conservatives" have supported an invasion of Crimea?  I hope not many.

I find drone strikes to be troubling even when used against known bad actors, because of the way they allow us to kill without having to face the enemy.  In this regard at least they are more precise than carpet bombing, so given a choice between two bad options I'll take them.  I'd prefer we find a way to stop killing folks who don't like us, and work on changing their minds instead.

BTW, I put scarequotes around "liberal" and "conservative" because the usage does not cohere with their dictionary definitions.  The opposite of liberal should be constrained or authoritarian, since liberal=free.  Likewise, conservative should be cautious or hesitant, but that does not describe the behavior or policies that I have seen from self-described "conservatives."  I'm just trying to communicate clearly.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1986 on: June 18, 2018, 08:16:44 AM »
Not one Liberal had an issue with Obama's very unilateral drone strike program.

This one had a problem with it. There were plenty of other Liberals who had a problem with it. Where are you getting your information on "Liberals"?

It's much easier to argue a straw-man than facts. Notice they subsequently compounded more straw-men arguments on top of this one. You can't have a fair, balanced and reasonable discussion when this happens. Integrity is just some fancy word.

Ok, I should have clarified that not one Liberal here had a large enough issue to address it. The post count against President Trump Russian collusion is very high but previous to my mention there was only one mere mention of "Drone" on the entire forum. Point was is President Trump attacked several countries with several Drone strikes, the Liberal outrage would be enough to drive people to comment on the forums in protest. If Obama strikes several countries, unchecked to boot, with drone strikes, nobody makes a peep. That was my point, and that is how I derived my information. Even the "Russian" Thread was started post-Trump. I cant find any outrage here towards Obama for the Syrian Chemical weapons and invasion of the Ukraine by Russia. We post on what we think is important, we find different things important and that is ok. I think "integrity" is more compromised by the childish name calling, but again, to each their own.

This thread isn't about Obama and several folks have come out to point out your false accusation thus making your subsequently claim invalid still. You are just further proving my point. You can even ask who had a problem with it. I realize that doesn't fit your preconceived conclusion about "all" liberals though.

Well I apologize for being unsuccessful in finding the Drone and Chemical Weapons discussions and am pleased to know that you also took issue with them. I will continue to focus on what I think will be a positive Presidential term and relevant speculations based on current events. I realize I am against the grain here and will discuss things I have read, heard and interpreted. I am fine being wrong sometimes. I don't look to hold only company that I agree with and I do like that most of you debate on a very rational and educated basis. Cheers!

Not only has Trump continued drone strikes, he is doing it increasingly indiscriminatory way, and civilian casualties are increasing. Remember, this is the same man who said not only would he bomb terrorists, but also their families.
The problem there is so much news around Trump, this troubling development has been buried under the rest of it.
 
I vote Democrat, and for my more liberal friends, there were very much discussions about both drone strikes and not closing Guantanomo. Guess the liberals only small satisfaction is that as suspected, and now proved under Trump, potential human rights violations and civilian casualties would be much much worse under a Republican administration.


https://www.axios.com/trump-drone-strikes-iraq-and-syria-8a242b2b-2387-4153-ad9d-68ecda71b344.html

Secret Stache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1987 on: June 18, 2018, 08:19:52 AM »
One worrying trend that has been going on for generations is the expansion of executive power, which accelerated greatly after WWII and the nuclear/cold war strategies that followed. One hope I had was that the election of Trump would finally align congress to curtail the executive. This has bothered me under all previous administrations. Line item vetoes, inclusion of signing statements in the congressional record, bypassing congress while going to war (the Bush Sr example from Kuwait was properly done), and overall increasing secrecy.

Congress, with some exceptions, has largely left Trump to do as he pleases. Mitch McConnell has steadily quashed any attempts to do so in the Senate. Paul Ryan has been a doormat. Trump is showing increasing love of and characteristics of authoritarians. He demands loyalty to HIM (not the constitution or country, but to him). Remember those conversations with Comey and others? This is not in dispute. He loves the idea of Xi being president for life in China. Just this morning on Fox and Friends, Trump praised Kim for how when he speaks his people do what he says and how he wants that. If it was a one-off, then I could buy that it was a poorly worded statement. However, I think that there is a clear pattern here and if he had the opportunity to be a dictator he would grab that brass ring.

Many may agree with specific policy issues of the Trump administration. That is fine. People can agree on policy. However, our country was specifically set up to have a limited executive and not have a King or equivalent. To excuse that, or turn a blind eye to that is to be fundamentally unpatriotic in my mind.

Agreed.  Listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode The Destroyer of Worlds.  He does a fantastic job of walking step by step of how and why the executive has the powers that it does.  It's an interesting topic.

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1988 on: June 18, 2018, 09:32:23 AM »
Are we arguing about the Obama drone program as a proxy for Trump's charity fraud?  Liberals didn't have an issue with Obama's drones (for which no evidence was offered of liberal neutrality), so we are not allowed to criticize anything about Trump's self-dealing charity?  Luckily, the judicial system of New York cannot be satisfied with "Your honor, I did take money from my charity for myself, but DRONES" even if that rationale is enough for Trump's base. 

I like to balance both sides of the equation.  So, when considering how I feel about politicians and drones, I don't compare drones to charity fraud. I compare drones to drones.  The evidence indicates that Trump is enthusiastic about their use.  For someone who feels drone strikes are immoral, you'd either call Trump and Obama a wash or lean slightly towards Obama just because he didn't seem to drool with pleasure at the thought of deploying them.  I don't think "BUT DRONES" is a potent argument to differentiate Trump and Obama.  And it doesn't excuse or mitigate Trump's various moral failings and administrative incompetence with regard to 98% of his job. 

I wonder how many Trump voters we'll be able to find in 10 years.  Will they have all disappeared into the ether like W voters?  Silver lining for Republicans: voting for W doesn't seem quite as shameful now.  In fact, it seems like a badge of pride for lots of people I know that, even though they voted for W, they were smart enough not vote for Trump.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1989 on: June 18, 2018, 10:40:09 AM »
Are we arguing about the Obama drone program as a proxy for Trump's charity fraud?  Liberals didn't have an issue with Obama's drones (for which no evidence was offered of liberal neutrality), so we are not allowed to criticize anything about Trump's self-dealing charity?  Luckily, the judicial system of New York cannot be satisfied with "Your honor, I did take money from my charity for myself, but DRONES" even if that rationale is enough for Trump's base. 

I like to balance both sides of the equation.  So, when considering how I feel about politicians and drones, I don't compare drones to charity fraud. I compare drones to drones.  The evidence indicates that Trump is enthusiastic about their use.  For someone who feels drone strikes are immoral, you'd either call Trump and Obama a wash or lean slightly towards Obama just because he didn't seem to drool with pleasure at the thought of deploying them.  I don't think "BUT DRONES" is a potent argument to differentiate Trump and Obama.  And it doesn't excuse or mitigate Trump's various moral failings and administrative incompetence with regard to 98% of his job. 

I wonder how many Trump voters we'll be able to find in 10 years.  Will they have all disappeared into the ether like W voters?  Silver lining for Republicans: voting for W doesn't seem quite as shameful now.  In fact, it seems like a badge of pride for lots of people I know that, even though they voted for W, they were smart enough not vote for Trump.

It's just more whataboutism we've seen from a couple Trump supporters on here. When you try to defend the indefensible, it tends to happen. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1990 on: June 18, 2018, 10:52:15 AM »
Much of this argument can be summed up as:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring

If Clinton's foundation is corrupt (it's not), then our judicial system can deal with it on it's own terms.
If Trump's foundation is corrupt (it certainly appears to be), then our judicial system can deal with it on it's own terms.

This is also why so many on both the left and right are upset about Trump's conscious demands of loyalty from the judicial system and DOJ in particular. If it becomes politicized in how it pursues cases, then it erodes trust. This is why Comey's last minute letter (against DOJ protocols) was so problematic as well. And you can throw Bills tarmac meeting with Loretta Lynch in as well (not a clean cut case, but certainly bad optics).
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ematicic

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1991 on: June 18, 2018, 11:11:52 AM »
Are we arguing about the Obama drone program as a proxy for Trump's charity fraud?  Liberals didn't have an issue with Obama's drones (for which no evidence was offered of liberal neutrality), so we are not allowed to criticize anything about Trump's self-dealing charity?  Luckily, the judicial system of New York cannot be satisfied with "Your honor, I did take money from my charity for myself, but DRONES" even if that rationale is enough for Trump's base. 

I like to balance both sides of the equation.  So, when considering how I feel about politicians and drones, I don't compare drones to charity fraud. I compare drones to drones.  The evidence indicates that Trump is enthusiastic about their use.  For someone who feels drone strikes are immoral, you'd either call Trump and Obama a wash or lean slightly towards Obama just because he didn't seem to drool with pleasure at the thought of deploying them.  I don't think "BUT DRONES" is a potent argument to differentiate Trump and Obama.  And it doesn't excuse or mitigate Trump's various moral failings and administrative incompetence with regard to 98% of his job. 

I wonder how many Trump voters we'll be able to find in 10 years.  Will they have all disappeared into the ether like W voters?  Silver lining for Republicans: voting for W doesn't seem quite as shameful now.  In fact, it seems like a badge of pride for lots of people I know that, even though they voted for W, they were smart enough not vote for Trump.

I actually brought up the drones because of the earlier complaints against President Trump and his war mongering in North Korea. I merely said I found his diplomacy in NK more effective than that of Obama in Syria or Russia. War time ethics are hard to quantify but the number of people bothered by President Trumps handling of current events are much more vocal than anyone bothered by Obama's inaction, apologies and unchecked drone strikes and I find that odd.

They say President Trump is evil for deporting illegals but applauded Obama's DACA. I hated DACA because it is "Deferred Action" He only punted the ball for the next guy, there was nothing enduring there, just an open invitation with no plan to care or provide. The Democrats and Obama had every opportunity to pass enduring legislature that would have encouraged immigration but they failed to do so. They chose the "Deferred" option and that means today's leadership needs to take the action, they should have.

Trumps charity is illegal and immoral but Clinton's was somehow the ethical role model for charities are supposed to operate. Funny after how much they siphoned from Haiti, the Haitian government doesn't seem to find them very helpful, and yes there are many other reasons I would call them unethical.

I do agree with President Trump's military action in Syria. I think it was far more effective than warning people not to cross a line. They did and Obama folded. Weak. And the point that President Trump should have intervened in Crimea, also weak. That should have been done while it was being invaded. I agree that Trump has many responsibilities to fix many global and domestic messes but I don't necessarily think Crimea is on his shoulders. The cuts to the military during the Obama years was crippling. I am glad it is getting fixed and America, again, has a strong presence.

The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.

I am "Speculating about the future of a full Trump Presidency". I think many of his big moves were forced by Obama failures such as weak military stances, DACA and ACA. His intentions were good but Obama's end state was not good. ACA has spiraling out of control costs and very few companies left that can survive and DACA was an invitation with no follow on considerations.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:19:13 AM by ematicic »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1992 on: June 18, 2018, 12:18:05 PM »
Are we arguing about the Obama drone program as a proxy for Trump's charity fraud?  Liberals didn't have an issue with Obama's drones (for which no evidence was offered of liberal neutrality), so we are not allowed to criticize anything about Trump's self-dealing charity?  Luckily, the judicial system of New York cannot be satisfied with "Your honor, I did take money from my charity for myself, but DRONES" even if that rationale is enough for Trump's base. 

I like to balance both sides of the equation.  So, when considering how I feel about politicians and drones, I don't compare drones to charity fraud. I compare drones to drones.  The evidence indicates that Trump is enthusiastic about their use.  For someone who feels drone strikes are immoral, you'd either call Trump and Obama a wash or lean slightly towards Obama just because he didn't seem to drool with pleasure at the thought of deploying them.  I don't think "BUT DRONES" is a potent argument to differentiate Trump and Obama.  And it doesn't excuse or mitigate Trump's various moral failings and administrative incompetence with regard to 98% of his job. 

I wonder how many Trump voters we'll be able to find in 10 years.  Will they have all disappeared into the ether like W voters?  Silver lining for Republicans: voting for W doesn't seem quite as shameful now.  In fact, it seems like a badge of pride for lots of people I know that, even though they voted for W, they were smart enough not vote for Trump.

I actually brought up the drones because of the earlier complaints against President Trump and his war mongering in North Korea. I merely said I found his diplomacy in NK more effective than that of Obama in Syria or Russia. War time ethics are hard to quantify but the number of people bothered by President Trumps handling of current events are much more vocal than anyone bothered by Obama's inaction, apologies and unchecked drone strikes and I find that odd.

They say President Trump is evil for deporting illegals but applauded Obama's DACA. I hated DACA because it is "Deferred Action" He only punted the ball for the next guy, there was nothing enduring there, just an open invitation with no plan to care or provide. The Democrats and Obama had every opportunity to pass enduring legislature that would have encouraged immigration but they failed to do so. They chose the "Deferred" option and that means today's leadership needs to take the action, they should have.

Trumps charity is illegal and immoral but Clinton's was somehow the ethical role model for charities are supposed to operate. Funny after how much they siphoned from Haiti, the Haitian government doesn't seem to find them very helpful, and yes there are many other reasons I would call them unethical.

I do agree with President Trump's military action in Syria. I think it was far more effective than warning people not to cross a line. They did and Obama folded. Weak. And the point that President Trump should have intervened in Crimea, also weak. That should have been done while it was being invaded. I agree that Trump has many responsibilities to fix many global and domestic messes but I don't necessarily think Crimea is on his shoulders. The cuts to the military during the Obama years was crippling. I am glad it is getting fixed and America, again, has a strong presence.

The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.

I am "Speculating about the future of a full Trump Presidency". I think many of his big moves were forced by Obama failures such as weak military stances, DACA and ACA. His intentions were good but Obama's end state was not good. ACA has spiraling out of control costs and very few companies left that can survive and DACA was an invitation with no follow on considerations.

ACA costs too much, but we need more military spending.......?

We spent 34% of the world's entire military spending in 2014.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/13/barack-obama/obama-us-spends-more-military-next-8-nations-combi/

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1993 on: June 18, 2018, 12:21:59 PM »
I am "Speculating about the future of a full Trump Presidency".

No, you're not. You're relying on the past to lay blame on Obama and Clinton (really?) and doing a classic "BUT WHAT ABOUT" maneuver.

Obama is no longer the President. Clinton lost. Get over it.

NewPerspective

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1994 on: June 18, 2018, 12:33:05 PM »

They say President Trump is evil for deporting illegals but applauded Obama's DACA. I hated DACA because it is "Deferred Action" He only punted the ball for the next guy, there was nothing enduring there, just an open invitation with no plan to care or provide. The Democrats and Obama had every opportunity to pass enduring legislature that would have encouraged immigration but they failed to do so. They chose the "Deferred" option and that means today's leadership needs to take the action, they should have.


He tried to pass legislation for Dreamers that would create a path to citizenship...........

From Wikipedia:

The DREAM Act bill, which would have provided a pathway to permanent residency for illegal immigrants brought to the United States upon meeting certain qualifications, was considered by Congress in 2007. It failed to overcome a bipartisan filibuster in the Senate.[22] It was considered again in 2011. The bill passed the House, but did not get the 60 votes needed to overcome a Republican filibuster in the Senate.[23][22] In 2013, legislation had comprehensively reformed the immigration system, including allowing Dreamers permission to stay in the country, work and attend school; this passed the Senate but was not brought up for a vote in the House.[22] The New York Times credits the failure of Congress to pass the DREAM Act bill as the driver behind Obama's decision to sign DACA.[22]

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1995 on: June 18, 2018, 12:47:23 PM »
The ACA was reckless. As much as I think a Universal healthcare program would be good for the US, there are plenty of quantifiable data sets to show our overall tax rate would need to increase significantly. Other countries pay much higher income tax, or other various taxes where universal healthcare is used successfully. The Obama administration did a disservice to its own program by taking measure to make it look more affordable, only to watch monopolies form and rates skyrocket a mere 3 years into it.



Just plain wrong here. The ACA caused the uninsured rate to drop from 18% of the population to below 9%.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1996 on: June 18, 2018, 01:26:39 PM »
Hey, man, you know what would be totally cool?  You know how, like, we've got the Air Force an all?  How about, "SPACE FORCE!"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/18/president-trump-directs-pentagon-defense-department-to-immediately-being-the-process-of-establishing-space-force-as-sixth-military-branch.html

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1997 on: June 18, 2018, 01:45:29 PM »
Hey, man, you know what would be totally cool?  You know how, like, we've got the Air Force an all?  How about, "SPACE FORCE!"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/18/president-trump-directs-pentagon-defense-department-to-immediately-being-the-process-of-establishing-space-force-as-sixth-military-branch.html

This is deeply problematic because it erodes the position of president as a civilian office that is beholden to congress. Truman created the Air Force in 1947 by signing a law passed by congress and sent to the president by signature. Trump should not be allowed to do this by decree. He is not a goddamn King, no matter what he wants to think.
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MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1998 on: June 18, 2018, 02:01:19 PM »
This is deeply problematic because it erodes the position of president as a civilian office that is beholden to congress.
It's not purely a civilian office though, is it?  There is this part of the US Constitution: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1999 on: June 18, 2018, 02:03:05 PM »
Don't forget, he is also commander in chief of . . . "SPACE FORCE!"