Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 263557 times)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1800 on: June 03, 2018, 10:48:01 AM »
Giuliani is asserting that Trump can pardon himself. It's laughable but probably not outside what Trump would attempt in this surreal era of cronyism and self-aggrandizement. Would his base accept it? I imagine even moderate Republicans would find it edging into the corrupt.

This seems likely for a supreme court showdown, and I can't see the SCOTUS accepting this logic. Scalia always refers back to what the founders intended and draws heavily on federalist papers, which are filled with references about keeping the president from having abolute authority. Kennedy takes the pragmatic approach, and the so-called 'liberal' judges won't like this one bit. 

Quote
Some of his party are once again gaining a little courage; this time it's with regard to the tariffs and angering our enemies such as...Canada (lol. wtf?) We've seen some GOP criticism before but, given that all kinds of US exports will be affected (Kentucky bourbon* among them), maybe it'll stick.

* http://fortune.com/2016/02/03/whiskeys-bourbon-spirits-sales/
I wonder if bourbon will get cheaper for awhile...
Increasingly I've heard Canadians talk about avoiding vacations in the US and buying less US-made stuff.

I get the feeling that DJT's calculus is that the status quo of open trade benefits the US x% but other countries 2x%. So in his mind if new tarrifs result in the US going down -x% but the rest of the country going down -3x% we "win".  Its akin to saying "sure, we'll all get hurt, but you'll get hurt more so that's better for US'"

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1801 on: June 03, 2018, 11:53:44 AM »
If Trump gets impeached, and ultimately removed-he can't pardon himself now can he? I'd imagine it'll be impossible for Trump to be impeached, unless the midterms swing wildly D and the Rs grow a spine...

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1802 on: June 03, 2018, 12:18:17 PM »
If Trump gets impeached, and ultimately removed-he can't pardon himself now can he? I'd imagine it'll be impossible for Trump to be impeached, unless the midterms swing wildly D and the Rs grow a spine...

R's growing a spine?

R's need to put their big boy pants on.

Why is everyone so afraid of Donny?

wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1803 on: June 03, 2018, 12:40:43 PM »
If Trump gets impeached, and ultimately removed-he can't pardon himself now can he? I'd imagine it'll be impossible for Trump to be impeached, unless the midterms swing wildly D and the Rs grow a spine...

R's growing a spine?

R's need to put their big boy pants on.

Why is everyone so afraid of Donny?


First of all, Trump is almost certainly not going to be impeached.

Second, as I said just a few posts ago...it continues to confuse me that people express surprise that the GOP won't 'stand up' to Trump. 

Rs are afraid for their own jobs, not so much of Trump himself.  I'm sure many of them can't stand Trump.  But the GOP base is solidly behind Trump; and if the GOP moves against him, their voters will punish them.  That's the Rs' primary motive: they want to keep their jobs and a midterm is coming up. 

Secondarily, (with the exception of this current trade war policy , which is not in line with GOP orthodoxy, and despite Trump's erratic rhetoric on all sorts of issues/populist positions on some issues during the campaign), he has in fact tried to/implemented most of the policies that the GOP dreams about: super conservative judges, attempts to gut regulation esp the EPA, tax cuts, tried to repeal the ACA and gutted what he could of it, etc.

So I ask you, why WOULD they move against Trump? What would it gain them?  (Apart from the admiration of history and a more impressive obituary).  What would be their present day motivation to attack him?

This is a sincere question.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 02:18:29 PM by wenchsenior »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1804 on: June 03, 2018, 04:20:00 PM »
"It remains our position that the President's actions here, by virtue of his position as the chief law enforcement officer, could neither constitutionally nor legally constitute obstruction because that would amount to him obstructing himself," Mr Trump's lawyers wrote.

As Judge Dredd said, "I AM THE LAW!!!"
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 08:09:30 PM by Kyle Schuant »

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1805 on: June 03, 2018, 04:54:35 PM »
"It remains our position that the President's actions here, by virtue of his position as the chief law enforcement officer, could neither constitutionally nor legally constitute obstruction because that would amount to him obstructing himself," Mr Trump's lawyers wrote.

As Judge Dredd said, "I AM THE LAW!!!"

Wow.   Next he'll want to change the title from Mr President to Mr Law.

thd7t

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1806 on: June 04, 2018, 08:52:22 AM »
Giuliani is asserting that Trump can pardon himself. It's laughable but probably not outside what Trump would attempt in this surreal era of cronyism and self-aggrandizement. Would his base accept it? I imagine even moderate Republicans would find it edging into the corrupt.

This seems likely for a supreme court showdown, and I can't see the SCOTUS accepting this logic. Scalia always refers back to what the founders intended and draws heavily on federalist papers, which are filled with references about keeping the president from having abolute authority. Kennedy takes the pragmatic approach, and the so-called 'liberal' judges won't like this one bit. 

I don't see the late Antonin Scalia saying much about this case.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1807 on: June 04, 2018, 10:26:10 AM »
Giuliani is asserting that Trump can pardon himself. It's laughable but probably not outside what Trump would attempt in this surreal era of cronyism and self-aggrandizement. Would his base accept it? I imagine even moderate Republicans would find it edging into the corrupt.

This seems likely for a supreme court showdown, and I can't see the SCOTUS accepting this logic. Scalia always refers back to what the founders intended and draws heavily on federalist papers, which are filled with references about keeping the president from having abolute authority. Kennedy takes the pragmatic approach, and the so-called 'liberal' judges won't like this one bit. 

I don't see the late Antonin Scalia saying much about this case.
Well, regardless of how he sides, Clarence Thomas probably won't say much either.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1808 on: June 04, 2018, 11:30:08 AM »
Giuliani is asserting that Trump can pardon himself. It's laughable but probably not outside what Trump would attempt in this surreal era of cronyism and self-aggrandizement. Would his base accept it? I imagine even moderate Republicans would find it edging into the corrupt.

This seems likely for a supreme court showdown, and I can't see the SCOTUS accepting this logic. Scalia always refers back to what the founders intended and draws heavily on federalist papers, which are filled with references about keeping the president from having abolute authority. Kennedy takes the pragmatic approach, and the so-called 'liberal' judges won't like this one bit. 

I don't see the late Antonin Scalia saying much about this case.
Well, regardless of how he sides, Clarence Thomas probably won't say much either.

Ha, good one.

Thomas is a partisan hack. The only way he would not grant self-pardon powers to a Republican President would be if Roberts talked him down.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1809 on: June 04, 2018, 01:12:18 PM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1810 on: June 04, 2018, 01:35:46 PM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

In the big picture, the pens are small potatoes compared to the gutting of regulations and other questionable actions by Pruitt. However, expensive pens are something that many "average voters" will be able to relate to as a silly expense with their tax dollars. People are, sadly, more likely to respond to this more strongly than not staffing a toxicology position, or adjustments to what science can or cannot be considered by the EPA.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1811 on: June 04, 2018, 01:57:07 PM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

In the big picture, the pens are small potatoes compared to the gutting of regulations and other questionable actions by Pruitt. However, expensive pens are something that many "average voters" will be able to relate to as a silly expense with their tax dollars. People are, sadly, more likely to respond to this more strongly than not staffing a toxicology position, or adjustments to what science can or cannot be considered by the EPA.
What irritates me about this expense isn't the bottom-line dollar amount but this 'luxury' expense was approved in the first place.  I've worked for the federal government, and us underlings have to abide by strict purchasing rules and buy our supplies from an approved vendor or file a request detailing why we can't buy it through approved channels, all in the name of eliminating exactly this kind of crap.

Can you spend more than $130 on a pen, or more than $48,000 on an 'office remodel', or find a more expensive way to travel than first class?  Sure. Does any of it amount to more than 0.01% of the EPA's $8.1B budget? Not even close. But it's all unnecessary, and all designed to pamper the guy at the top with no discernible benefit to the agency that he leads.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1812 on: June 04, 2018, 02:22:36 PM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

You sure that's the wording you want to go with there?

https://www.amazon.com/BIC-MS11-Blk-Cristal-Smooth-12-Count/dp/B00006IE6X

I realize these pens may not be even close to the quality of what you're talking about here, but I use these pens everyday and they work great. This is the baseline for what gets the job done. If someone needs an ergonomic design for their carpal tunnel syndrome, go for it. But $130 for a pen is expensive. This is like buying jewelry with tax dollars, the jewelry just happens to write.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 02:26:40 PM by Dabnasty »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1813 on: June 04, 2018, 04:15:44 PM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

You sure that's the wording you want to go with there?

https://www.amazon.com/BIC-MS11-Blk-Cristal-Smooth-12-Count/dp/B00006IE6X

I realize these pens may not be even close to the quality of what you're talking about here, but I use these pens everyday and they work great. This is the baseline for what gets the job done. If someone needs an ergonomic design for their carpal tunnel syndrome, go for it. But $130 for a pen is expensive. This is like buying jewelry with tax dollars, the jewelry just happens to write.

That's not a fountain pen.

Regardless, per CNN:
Quote
EPA spokesman Jahan Wilcox said the pens were similar to purchases made by Pruitt's predecessors "for the purpose of serving as gifts to the Administrator's foreign counterparts and dignitaries upon his meeting with them."

Is it expensive? Sure. Does it make sense as a gift to a foreign dignitary? Sure.

Johnez

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1814 on: June 04, 2018, 05:16:06 PM »
Also, Obama's people spent nearly 3k on the same thing so....is this even really a story?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1815 on: June 04, 2018, 06:47:37 PM »
Is it expensive? Sure. Does it make sense as a gift to a foreign dignitary? Sure.

I think that this line of reasoning is less reasonable when you find out that Pruitt wanted to remove the logo of his office from the pens.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/382754-pruitt-wanted-to-highlight-his-name-on-epa-memorabilia-report

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1816 on: June 04, 2018, 07:16:05 PM »
Wow, indeed. Mueller says Manafort was attempting to reach witnesses to coach them on their testimony in his upcoming trial. Looks like there is potential for him to go to jail until trial because this also violates the terms o f his bail. Am I the only one who sees a pardon on the way?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/paul-manafort-mueller-witness-tampering.html

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1817 on: June 04, 2018, 07:34:25 PM »
I need some clarification on pardons.  I understand the following 2 things to be true:

1.  If you are pardoned, you must admit guilt. Burdick v United States (1915)

2.  If you are pardoned, you cannot plead the fifth.  http://time.com/4868418/donald-trump-presidential-pardons-backfire/

If those are true, why would Trump want to pardon himself?  He essentially admits guilt and he can't plead the fifth.

Yes?  No?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1818 on: June 04, 2018, 08:34:53 PM »
I need some clarification on pardons.  I understand the following 2 things to be true:

1.  If you are pardoned, you must admit guilt. Burdick v United States (1915)

2.  If you are pardoned, you cannot plead the fifth.  http://time.com/4868418/donald-trump-presidential-pardons-backfire/

If those are true, why would Trump want to pardon himself?  He essentially admits guilt and he can't plead the fifth.

Yes?  No?
No.
1.  You do not have to admit guilt, or even convicted, to be extended a pardon. Perhaps the best example is President Ford giving Richard Nixon "a full and unconditional pardon" for any crimes he might have committed while president of the United States.
Burdick  v US merely established that a defendant must accept the pardon if the court is to honor it. Nixon never admitted he had done anything wrong, yet his pardon was valid all the same.

2. "Pleading the Fifth" is evoked when one is giving testimony under oath - usually after being subpoenaed. Assuming a person was given a blanket pardon there's no danger that anything he or she said would put them in criminal jeopardy, so a judge could rule that the 5th amendment could no longer be evoked.  However, this assumes a few unlikely steps.  First, that a pardoned individual would be compelled to testify under oath - no sure thing if there can be no punishment (this would all be pre-trial). Second, that a pardon will be all encompassing and occur before indictments were filed. Such pardons are incredibly rare, in part because they imply guilt and in part because the AG/DA does not want to reveal what charge(s) will be filed until they feel they have ample evidence.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1819 on: June 05, 2018, 07:22:33 AM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

You sure that's the wording you want to go with there?

https://www.amazon.com/BIC-MS11-Blk-Cristal-Smooth-12-Count/dp/B00006IE6X

I realize these pens may not be even close to the quality of what you're talking about here, but I use these pens everyday and they work great. This is the baseline for what gets the job done. If someone needs an ergonomic design for their carpal tunnel syndrome, go for it. But $130 for a pen is expensive. This is like buying jewelry with tax dollars, the jewelry just happens to write.

I love the Cristal, but it's not relevant.

I'm quite sure about my word choice.

http://www.montblanc.com/en-us/collection/writing-instruments/meisterstueck/118065-meisterstueck-le-petit-prince-solitaire-legrand-fountain-.html

Honestly, the Pruitt pens probably aren't even very good. Most of the price is probably in the silver, not in the actual writing-related bits.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1820 on: June 05, 2018, 07:25:06 AM »
The President believes he is above the law and he has publicly stated this, as have his lawyers, via statements re: President can pardon himself and President can start and end any investigations he wants.

If you disagree with this, you're only recourse is to vote for a Democratic Congress in November 2018 because Trump has immunity via Congressional majority at the moment.

Inaya

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1821 on: June 05, 2018, 07:31:41 AM »
The President believes he is above the law and he has publicly stated this, as have his lawyers, via statements re: President can pardon himself and President can start and end any investigations he wants.

If you disagree with this, you're only recourse is to vote for a Democratic Congress in November 2018 because Trump has immunity via Congressional majority at the moment.

In other words: He's not wrong. At least for the time being.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1822 on: June 05, 2018, 07:32:34 AM »
Is Scott Pruitt trying to get the axe?  Or is he really that clueless?

Pruitt spent $1,560 of EPA money on 12 pens ($130 per pen).

OK, so I'm putting on my pedantic nerd hat here, because stationery is actually sort of a hobby of mine.

$130 isn't very expensive for a fountain pen, especially something custom with precious metals. There are plenty of Montblancs made out of precious resin plastic that go for four or five times that amount. You can spend $1,500 on one pen if you're really dedicated.

So yes, it's a pretty dumb thing on which to spend tax dollars, but I'm having a hard time getting upset over this one. If anything, the fact that they put his signature on them feels stupider than spending $130 on reusable pens.

You sure that's the wording you want to go with there?

https://www.amazon.com/BIC-MS11-Blk-Cristal-Smooth-12-Count/dp/B00006IE6X

I realize these pens may not be even close to the quality of what you're talking about here, but I use these pens everyday and they work great. This is the baseline for what gets the job done. If someone needs an ergonomic design for their carpal tunnel syndrome, go for it. But $130 for a pen is expensive. This is like buying jewelry with tax dollars, the jewelry just happens to write.

I love the Cristal, but it's not relevant.

I'm quite sure about my word choice.

http://www.montblanc.com/en-us/collection/writing-instruments/meisterstueck/118065-meisterstueck-le-petit-prince-solitaire-legrand-fountain-.html

Honestly, the Pruitt pens probably aren't even very good. Most of the price is probably in the silver, not in the actual writing-related bits.

Well, I suppose it's all relative and I can't define "expensive" but from the perspective of a writing utensil I'm going to call $130 expensive.

Others mentioned that these were intended as gifts which of course changes the reasoning entirely. But, it was also noted that Pruitt wanted to remove the EPA emblem and he had his signature inscribed. That makes me think that he thinks he's handing out personal business cards. Anyway, their are much bigger issues going on than the pens.

ETA: Since the pen thing came up, I've started to notice every time my Cristal leaves light spots. Dammit.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 07:47:08 AM by Dabnasty »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1823 on: June 05, 2018, 07:53:19 AM »
ETA: Since the pen thing came up, I've started to notice every time my Cristal leaves light spots. Dammit.

Try the Pilot Acroball or Uniball Jetstream. Or use pencils, which are better in every way. Palomino ForestChoice is $2.95/dz and really good. Also, WalMart's house brand pencils are good (only the Made in India ones).

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1824 on: June 07, 2018, 04:35:07 AM »
A propos Rudi Giuliani's comments on Stormy Daniels  -


So, Melania, what first attracted you to billionaire Donald Trump?


( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj-9lSEBBm0 )

jimmymango

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1825 on: June 07, 2018, 08:48:03 AM »
Interesting short piece in the New Yorker outlining historical parallels between Kaiser Wilhelm II and Trump. Key takeaway:

Quote
I’m not suggesting that Trump is about to start the Third World War. But recent foreign developments—the wild swings with North Korea, the ditching of the Iran nuclear deal, the threat of a trade war with China—suggest upheavals that could quickly grow out of American control. Some of Trump’s critics suppose that these escalating crises might cause him to loosen, or even lose, his grip on the Presidency. The real lesson of Kaiser Wilhelm II, however, may be that Trump’s leaving office might not be the end of the problems he may bring on or exacerbate—it may be only the beginning.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/what-happens-when-a-bad-tempered-distractible-doofus-runs-an-empire

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1826 on: June 07, 2018, 09:01:07 AM »
Am I the only one who has been impressed with the economy's ability to shrug off this escalating trade war thus far? 
The US market is robust... until it's not.  A lesson we seemingly have to re-learn every crash.

DarkandStormy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1827 on: June 07, 2018, 09:05:18 AM »
It's hard to keep up on the non-Russia scandals, but I imagine these would dominate the news for a week (or longer) under any other President:

-Secretary of Education heads "School Safety Commission" but refuses to study guns.
-EPA Administrator in his OFFICIAL CAPACITY tried to land a fast food franchise for his wife, among his other FOURTEEN INVESTIGATIONS into his ethics. (Also, the EPA will not study the health effects of asbestos for....reasons.)
-Acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau disbanded the Consumer Advisory Board, defying federal law.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1828 on: June 07, 2018, 10:08:08 AM »
It's hard to keep up on the non-Russia scandals, but I imagine these would dominate the news for a week (or longer) under any other President:
[snip]
Trump's strategy (as much as its a coherent strategy) is to continuously dominate the news cycle. He did it during the primaries and before he was even a candidate by calling up talk-shows and writing to the magazines and tabloids (sometimes claiming to be his own publicist).  Whether the coverage is favorable or not is of secondary concern so long as people are discussing him. 

Now that he's in the WH he continues this strategy - this week he disinvited the Champion Eagles and continued his "Spygate" claims and complained that the national fixation about Melania's health status was 'so unfair.'
The common thread is that everyone's talking about him at a time when we've got an escalating trade war, more ethics violations, another incompetent showing by DeVos, the gutting of consumer protection my Mnuchen and about a half dozen other things.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1829 on: June 07, 2018, 10:54:37 AM »
I haven't heard Donny Boy mention collusion in the last couple of days.

Yes, nereo, Donny Boy could be the modern day Pinocchio. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. Then he has his henchmen and women lying day and night.

How does Donny Boy keep up with all the lies he tells?



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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1830 on: June 07, 2018, 11:28:12 AM »
I haven't heard Donny Boy mention collusion in the last couple of days.

Yes, nereo, Donny Boy could be the modern day Pinocchio. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. Then he has his henchmen and women lying day and night.

How does Donny Boy keep up with all the lies he tells?


He doesn't. He contradicts himself all the damn time.

The trick is, he doesn't give a sh*t.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1831 on: June 07, 2018, 11:33:18 AM »
I haven't heard Donny Boy mention collusion in the last couple of days.

Yes, nereo, Donny Boy could be the modern day Pinocchio. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. Then he has his henchmen and women lying day and night.

How does Donny Boy keep up with all the lies he tells?

I don't think DJT cares much about contradicting himself. He's never showed any fidelity to his previous statements before. Remember how he blamed Hillary for the birther movement he led, how he was pro-choice before he was pro-life, how he decried the JOBS report and Unemployment data as "phony" until they were helping him... This isn't DJT changing his mind. It's him not caring what was actually 'true' in the first place. It was convenient to question Obama's citizenship until it was convenient to blame Hillary for it. It was helpful to share the views (and company) of playboy bunnies until it was convenient to shun them. It was convenient to berate the folks at the Bureau of Labor until it was convenient to champion them. And so on.

Most people have a hard time admitting they were wrong about something, and will selectively pick data and arguments that support their position (e.g. confirmation bias). Trump doesn't care about being wrong because he never cared about being right in the first place. He can lie and change those lies and not worry about 'keeping up' with the various lies because he didn't care what the truth was in the first place - only what was useful.

(edited typos)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 02:26:17 PM by nereo »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1832 on: June 07, 2018, 12:50:23 PM »
I haven't heard Donny Boy mention collusion in the last couple of days.

Yes, nereo, Donny Boy could be the modern day Pinocchio. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. Then he has his henchmen and women lying day and night.

How does Donny Boy keep up with all the lies he tells?

I don't think DJT cares much about contradicting himself. He's never showed any fidelity to his previous statements before. Remember how he blamed Hillary for the birther movement he led, how he was pro-choice before he was pro-life, how he decried the Jobs report and Unemployment data as "phony" until they were helping him... This isn't DJT changing his mind. It's him not caring what was actually 'true' in the first place. It was convenient to question Obama's citizenship until it was convenient to blame Hillary for it. It was share the views (and company) of playboy bunnies until it was convenient to shun them. It was convenient to berate the folks at the Bureau of Labor until it was convenient to champion them. And so on.

Most people have a hard time admitting they were wrong about something, and will selectively pick data and arguments that support their position (e.g. confirmation bias). Trump doesn't care about being wrong because he never cared about being right in the first place. He can lie and change those lies and not worry about 'keeping up' with the various lies because he didn't care what the truth was in the first place - only what we useful.

nereo, you hit the nail on the head and everything you said was perfectly TRUE, no lies there! He doesn't care about anything, it is all about HIM, HIM, HIM! Whatever he thinks makes him look good even if it is bad. It doesn't matter. Let not forget the BIGGEST crowd at his anaugration in the history of USA presidents! HAHAHAHA!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1833 on: June 07, 2018, 01:32:48 PM »
Which brings us back to the pre-election distinction between a liar and a bullshitter. A liar recognizes and cares that they are lying. A bullshitter doesn't care and will say whatever they need to at the time to scieve the dedired result with absolute disregard for the truth.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1835 on: June 08, 2018, 08:22:21 AM »
Wow. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/what-happens-when-a-bad-tempered-distractible-doofus-runs-an-empire
There's also some really interesting parallels with Henry VIII of England
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-henry-viii-inauguration-2017-ruling-modern-monarchy-544670

None of what we are seeing is new - not even within the US. Interesting to note that those who have followed similar playbooks have typically not had desirable fates, either for the individual or for the countries they 'served'.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1836 on: June 08, 2018, 08:57:52 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/08/trump-calls-for-russia-to-be-reinstated-to-g7.html

Quote
Trump added: "Russia should be in this meeting. Whether you like it or not and it may not be politically correct, but we have a world to run. G-7 threw Russia out. They should let Russia come back in."

Russia was ousted from the group of leading nations—France, Canada, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom and the U.S.—following its annexation of Crimea in 2014.

tl;dr: <using a Russian accent> "Who is this 'Putin'? I am not Russkie. I am proud American businessman."


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1837 on: June 08, 2018, 05:05:17 PM »
Wow. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/what-happens-when-a-bad-tempered-distractible-doofus-runs-an-empire
There's a Great Man Theory of history, that certain great men (it's always men) determine just about everything. On the left, there's also a Stupid Man Theory of history, that certain stupid men determine just about everything. For some, this morphs into the Evil Man theory - it's popular in places that used to be fascist or communist dictatorships. Hitler held a gun to the head of Himmler who held a gun to the head of Goebbels, who... all the way down to Corporal Schmidt holding a gun to the head of Private Hans while Hans machinegunned some Jews into a ditch. So really it's all Hitler's fault.

The truth is more nuanced. Yes, people like Trump and Wilhelm and Einstein and Jonas Salk and Gandhi do affect history. But they don't act alone. Power is always limited; even Hitler couldn't simply wake up one day and declare that all Germany had converted to Zoroastrianism. Gandhi didn't make salt and the next day the British left. Salk didn't make his polio vaccine and the following day the disease was eradicated.

All change, good, bad or mixed, takes time and there are a lot of people involved. And people get involved in that change for what they believe are good reasons. Trump is a complete fuckwit, but people voted for him for sane reasons, and the fact that he is President now and will be until 2024 at least does not, by itself, mean the complete ruin of the United States as a nation. That will take a lot more people to make happen.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - Dubya

Many Americans are working together on the ruination of the country. Not even Trump managed to completely ruin multi-billion dollar companies, so he certainly can't destroy the United States. He'll need your help!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1838 on: June 08, 2018, 07:06:16 PM »
Wow. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/what-happens-when-a-bad-tempered-distractible-doofus-runs-an-empire
There's a Great Man Theory of history, that certain great men (it's always men) determine just about everything. On the left, there's also a Stupid Man Theory of history, that certain stupid men determine just about everything. For some, this morphs into the Evil Man theory - it's popular in places that used to be fascist or communist dictatorships. Hitler held a gun to the head of Himmler who held a gun to the head of Goebbels, who... all the way down to Corporal Schmidt holding a gun to the head of Private Hans while Hans machinegunned some Jews into a ditch. So really it's all Hitler's fault.

The truth is more nuanced. Yes, people like Trump and Wilhelm and Einstein and Jonas Salk and Gandhi do affect history. But they don't act alone. Power is always limited; even Hitler couldn't simply wake up one day and declare that all Germany had converted to Zoroastrianism. Gandhi didn't make salt and the next day the British left. Salk didn't make his polio vaccine and the following day the disease was eradicated.

All change, good, bad or mixed, takes time and there are a lot of people involved. And people get involved in that change for what they believe are good reasons. Trump is a complete fuckwit, but people voted for him for sane reasons, and the fact that he is President now and will be until 2024 at least does not, by itself, mean the complete ruin of the United States as a nation. That will take a lot more people to make happen.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - Dubya

Many Americans are working together on the ruination of the country. Not even Trump managed to completely ruin multi-billion dollar companies, so he certainly can't destroy the United States. He'll need your help!

Good post. I also have a very strong dislike of people like Newt Gingrich and Mitch McConnell who laid the groundwork for people like Trump, and who have facilitated his agenda and blocked resistance at every turn. Turtles all the way down.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1839 on: June 10, 2018, 10:02:33 AM »
And now we see what happens when Trump is unable to persuade someone.   From the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/10/us/politics/trump-kudlow-g7.html

Quote
President Trump’s top economic adviser said on Sunday that Mr. Trump had pulled out of a joint statement with allies at the Group of 7 meeting over the weekend because a “betrayal” by the Canadian prime minister had threatened to make Mr. Trump appear weak before his summit meeting on Tuesday with North Korea’s leader.

Quote
Mr. Trump “is not going to let a Canadian prime minister push him around,” Mr. Kudlow said

Nothing at all unexpected here.   When Trump's negotiation tactics fail to work, he has always resorted to ad hominem attacks.

I wonder how he will react if the North Korean discussions don't go well.   Perhaps that will be Canada's fault!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1840 on: June 10, 2018, 11:23:48 AM »
And now we see what happens when Trump is unable to persuade someone.   From the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/10/us/politics/trump-kudlow-g7.html

Quote
President Trump’s top economic adviser said on Sunday that Mr. Trump had pulled out of a joint statement with allies at the Group of 7 meeting over the weekend because a “betrayal” by the Canadian prime minister had threatened to make Mr. Trump appear weak before his summit meeting on Tuesday with North Korea’s leader.

Quote
Mr. Trump “is not going to let a Canadian prime minister push him around,” Mr. Kudlow said

Nothing at all unexpected here.   When Trump's negotiation tactics fail to work, he has always resorted to ad hominem attacks.

I wonder how he will react if the North Korean discussions don't go well.   Perhaps that will be Canada's fault!

Of course it will be Canada's fault.    Wasn't it South Park that said "Blame Canada"?  The US is the only one allowed to impose tariffs and stand up for itself.  The rest of us have to be doormats. 

I would love to see American trade and tourism figures for 2018 versus the same period last year, for Canadian purchases/tourists to the US.  I know a lot of people who have been doing their own little boycotts for quite a while now.   Especially in the grocery store. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1841 on: June 10, 2018, 11:26:16 AM »
Trudeau's comments were about as diplomatic as you can get while criticizing an ally.  The only conclusion I can draw here is that Trump's tantrum was a forgone conclusion. He went in with a script - show up late, poke the hornets nest with his Russia comments, leave early and then start a Twitter attack about how "unfair" everything was.
This is what passes for diplomacy in this WH.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1842 on: June 10, 2018, 12:18:07 PM »
Trudeau's comments were about as diplomatic as you can get while criticizing an ally.  The only conclusion I can draw here is that Trump's tantrum was a forgone conclusion. He went in with a script - show up late, poke the hornets nest with his Russia comments, leave early and then start a Twitter attack about how "unfair" everything was.
This is what passes for diplomacy in this WH.

nereo, I agree completely. He had an agenda and like you said poking the hornets nest, showing up late and doing his usual blame game that it is everyone's fault but his. I think this is going to be his NEW THING to show up late like a diva. He is an embarrassment to this country. His head has gotten so big now that he has been Prez for a while now. How does he possibly get his head thru doorways? Donny's actions are getting very old and hard to swallow. Just watching him and his cronies give speeches gags me every day. So now he has two new things he does. He can pardon people without asking permission, he can turn up late at meetings so people wonder 'where is Donny'.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1843 on: June 10, 2018, 01:03:19 PM »
Trudeau's comments were about as diplomatic as you can get while criticizing an ally.  The only conclusion I can draw here is that Trump's tantrum was a forgone conclusion. He went in with a script - show up late, poke the hornets nest with his Russia comments, leave early and then start a Twitter attack about how "unfair" everything was.
This is what passes for diplomacy in this WH.

nereo, I agree completely. He had an agenda and like you said poking the hornets nest, showing up late and doing his usual blame game that it is everyone's fault but his. I think this is going to be his NEW THING to show up late like a diva. He is an embarrassment to this country. His head has gotten so big now that he has been Prez for a while now. How does he possibly get his head thru doorways? Donny's actions are getting very old and hard to swallow. Just watching him and his cronies give speeches gags me every day. So now he has two new things he does. He can pardon people without asking permission, he can turn up late at meetings so people wonder 'where is Donny'.

The only thing I am unsure of here is that his ego has gotten any larger.  I tend to think he is about the same as he has been for the last decade+.  Remember when he declared that "I alone can fix [this country]"? Or when he talked about being 'smarter than the generals' or that he had "one of the greatest memories, perhaps of all time"? For many years he was a call-in to Fox news offering his analysis on whatever the probleme-de-jour was, regardless of whether it had anything to do with his expertise and experience.

The pardon thing is worrisome to me for what it could become (e.g. will he pardon Manafort or Cohen or anyone else indicted in Mueller's probe?). But for the moment its just a sideshow distraction and fodder for his base. I could really care less if some dead or septigenarian boxer gets a pardon. Arpaio irks me because he was an officer of the law who flouted the judicial system.  More worrisome is this carrot he's dangling to his supporters; push his agenda regardless of the law and you might now have to worry about any reprocusions. Granting clemency to a non-violent drug dealer who served two decades? meh - pretty standard as pardons go.

More upsetting to me is this double-standard of what constitutes a federal law that must be enforced. They'll round up every immigrant they can and split families all the while Sessions is claiming they have no choice, the law is hte law and they cannot give legal discretion. But then they won't enforce the ACA's individual mandate because .... why exactly? It's very ham-handed, with the end-goal of making the federal law enforcement agencies a political kludge of the executive branch. If he succeeds in severing the impartiality of these agencies I fear we'll just continue to whipsaw back and forth as one party gains and then loses the executive branch, incarcerating their political foes ("lock her up!") and ignoring actual criminal threats in favor of political gain.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1844 on: June 10, 2018, 01:47:00 PM »
Trudeau's comments were about as diplomatic as you can get while criticizing an ally.  The only conclusion I can draw here is that Trump's tantrum was a forgone conclusion. He went in with a script - show up late, poke the hornets nest with his Russia comments, leave early and then start a Twitter attack about how "unfair" everything was.
This is what passes for diplomacy in this WH.

nereo, I agree completely. He had an agenda and like you said poking the hornets nest, showing up late and doing his usual blame game that it is everyone's fault but his. I think this is going to be his NEW THING to show up late like a diva. He is an embarrassment to this country. His head has gotten so big now that he has been Prez for a while now. How does he possibly get his head thru doorways? Donny's actions are getting very old and hard to swallow. Just watching him and his cronies give speeches gags me every day. So now he has two new things he does. He can pardon people without asking permission, he can turn up late at meetings so people wonder 'where is Donny'.

The only thing I am unsure of here is that his ego has gotten any larger.  I tend to think he is about the same as he has been for the last decade+.  Remember when he declared that "I alone can fix [this country]"? Or when he talked about being 'smarter than the generals' or that he had "one of the greatest memories, perhaps of all time"? For many years he was a call-in to Fox news offering his analysis on whatever the probleme-de-jour was, regardless of whether it had anything to do with his expertise and experience.

The pardon thing is worrisome to me for what it could become (e.g. will he pardon Manafort or Cohen or anyone else indicted in Mueller's probe?). But for the moment its just a sideshow distraction and fodder for his base. I could really care less if some dead or septigenarian boxer gets a pardon. Arpaio irks me because he was an officer of the law who flouted the judicial system.  More worrisome is this carrot he's dangling to his supporters; push his agenda regardless of the law and you might now have to worry about any reprocusions. Granting clemency to a non-violent drug dealer who served two decades? meh - pretty standard as pardons go.

More upsetting to me is this double-standard of what constitutes a federal law that must be enforced. They'll round up every immigrant they can and split families all the while Sessions is claiming they have no choice, the law is hte law and they cannot give legal discretion. But then they won't enforce the ACA's individual mandate because .... why exactly? It's very ham-handed, with the end-goal of making the federal law enforcement agencies a political kludge of the executive branch. If he succeeds in severing the impartiality of these agencies I fear we'll just continue to whipsaw back and forth as one party gains and then loses the executive branch, incarcerating their political foes ("lock her up!") and ignoring actual criminal threats in favor of political gain.

I also think this drama was a pre show for Little Rocket Man. He is trying to show how rough and tough he is to put some fear in Kim's head before they meet. Psychological warfare. All the BS talk about how Donny will know in one minute upon meeting with Kim if things will work out. How he might walk out if things don't work out and he says he has done it before. He says this is a one shot deal with Kim. He is making a big clamor like the Wizard of Oz...pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...Make big noises and scare the timid.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1845 on: June 10, 2018, 02:01:54 PM »
A little perverse I know, but I think the world is about to see an Epic Bad Hair Day! It will be the greatest hugest best bad hair day ever as two masters of style meet.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1846 on: June 10, 2018, 02:18:49 PM »
Every time I watch DJT meet a head of state it's almost comical how he tries to physically dominate them. The handshake with Macron, the shove of MOntenegro's PM, the deliberate back-turn on Trudeau.

My guess is he'll try to position himself to tower over Kim, emphasizing his height, and while he'll do some elaborate handshake he won't even attempt a respectful bow (because in his mind respect = weakness, and weakness is for losers).

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1847 on: June 10, 2018, 02:26:20 PM »
Evidently, Trump is an excellent father figure and people act childish around him because they are being put in their place, finally, by this paragon of responsibility.

I refrained from commenting on that one because it was posted by someone who lost their father at a relatively young age. And because it is hard to speak with your jaw on the floor.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1848 on: June 10, 2018, 02:44:11 PM »
Every time I watch DJT meet a head of state it's almost comical how he tries to physically dominate them. The handshake with Macron, the shove of MOntenegro's PM, the deliberate back-turn on Trudeau.

My guess is he'll try to position himself to tower over Kim, emphasizing his height, and while he'll do some elaborate handshake he won't even attempt a respectful bow (because in his mind respect = weakness, and weakness is for losers).

Again, nereo, so right on point. His stupid handshakes that are an embarrassment. He will use his height to try to humiliate Kim. However, if Dennis Rodman shows up, he will tower over all of them.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1849 on: June 11, 2018, 07:53:46 AM »
Every time I watch DJT meet a head of state it's almost comical how he tries to physically dominate them. The handshake with Macron, the shove of MOntenegro's PM, the deliberate back-turn on Trudeau.

My guess is he'll try to position himself to tower over Kim, emphasizing his height, and while he'll do some elaborate handshake he won't even attempt a respectful bow (because in his mind respect = weakness, and weakness is for losers).

Again, nereo, so right on point. His stupid handshakes that are an embarrassment. He will use his height to try to humiliate Kim. However, if Dennis Rodman shows up, he will tower over all of them.

Oddly enough, Rodman would also be the most adult of the bunch.


 . . . which is something I never, ever thought I'd say about Dennis fucking Rodman.