Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 312302 times)

Wexler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1500 on: April 27, 2018, 11:29:24 AM »
Another example is when a black man is not allowed to have an opinion that he "shouldn't" have, such as kanye liking trump, blacks are supposed to be democrats don't you know.

So, to show how black men are not allowed to have opinions that they shouldn't . . . you give an example of a black man who has an opinion that (you allege) he shouldn't?  :P  Can you show an actual example of what you're talking about here?

Maybe Zoltani can elaborate, but black conservatives being ostracized by other blacks and those on the left is absolutely an issue. Candace Owens as an example

If you listen to Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, etc. they all have similar stories.

This just sounds like their ideas are being criticized in the marketplace of ideas.  But they can freely express them.  David Frum went through a similar reversal when he criticized Bush from a conservative point of view.  He immediately lost his job at a conservative think tank.  He tried to console his wife, saying at least they knew who their true friends were.  His wife responded that she preferred not knowing.  We can lament and criticize group think and calcification of ideologies into tribal thinking WITHOUT pretending that these grievances are somehow equivalent oppression to racial inequality or other past injustices.  I think you'd find that people are receptive to this general concept, but overstating this to say we are in 1984 sounds like "wow, things are so bad now-things were better back when I could refuse to hire black people but we all were free to express ourselves without criticism." 

I disagree that expression of ideas is worse or more dangerous now and approaching group think.  It may just be that expressing ideas that used to get a free pass (women are bad at math, gay people shouldn't get married) are now subject to criticism.  In essence, conservatives are now experiencing an unpleasant devaluing of their ideology in the marketplace of ideas.  So, to them, the present compares less favorably to the past.  For white men in particular, their civil rights have stayed constant while their ability to engage in certain (unsavory) behaviors has been curtailed and the consequences to expressing previously uncontroversial thoughts are now greater. 

It's OK to worry about how we talk to each other, but I say we shouldn't make it an either/or proposition.  It's not like the expansion of civil rights AND the expansion of discourse are mutually exclusive so that we have to go back to a shitty past to have better discourse.  And, the expansion of discourse carries the risk that some ideas won't do well in the marketplace.  That may have seemed more palatable to some when "gay marriage" was trading as a penny stock, but now that "I don't want to sell cake for a gay wedding" is trading low, people are suddenly up in arms about how they can't express themselves freely. 

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1501 on: April 27, 2018, 11:44:57 AM »
This just sounds like their ideas are being criticized in the marketplace of ideas.  But they can freely express them.

So, just to be clear.. being called a coon, traitor, or Uncle Tom is simply criticism in the marketplace of ideas?

If I responded to an anti-Trump poster here by calling them names and saying I don't want to hear what they have to say, you all would pile-on (rightly so). How is this any different?

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1502 on: April 27, 2018, 11:50:50 AM »
This just sounds like their ideas are being criticized in the marketplace of ideas.  But they can freely express them.

So, just to be clear.. being called a coon, traitor, or Uncle Tom is simply criticism in the marketplace of ideas?

If I responded to an anti-Trump poster here by calling them names and saying I don't want to hear what they have to say, you all would pile-on (rightly so). How is this any different?

Name-calling is always a sloppy substitute for actual thought/argument.

But it's legitimate for black people, e.g., to criticize another black person for supporting a candidate/president who trafficks so openly in racism, bigotry, tribalism, and white supremacy.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1503 on: April 27, 2018, 12:03:40 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1504 on: April 27, 2018, 12:12:57 PM »
This just sounds like their ideas are being criticized in the marketplace of ideas.  But they can freely express them.

So, just to be clear.. being called a coon, traitor, or Uncle Tom is simply criticism in the marketplace of ideas?

If I responded to an anti-Trump poster here by calling them names and saying I don't want to hear what they have to say, you all would pile-on (rightly so). How is this any different?

Name-calling is always a sloppy substitute for actual thought/argument.

But it's legitimate for black people, e.g., to criticize another black person for supporting a candidate/president who trafficks so openly in racism, bigotry, tribalism, and white supremacy.

Are you talking about Kanye? We may not be talking about the same thing. I was referring to Candace Owens' interview I linked. As far as I can tell, she was called names just for coming out as conservative.

It's legitimate to criticize anyone for any idea they may have, as long as that criticism is backed up with facts and reason. I think the main point Zoltani was getting across is that there is absolutely 'wrong think' especially in the black community. People's opposing ideas are not attacked; the people holding those opposing ideas are.

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1505 on: April 27, 2018, 12:20:37 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1506 on: April 27, 2018, 12:26:22 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

So you're not a member of the group you have advise for?  OK.

As a black man, you didn't ever benefit from affirmative action in your career . . . and in fact, felt that it held you back?

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1507 on: April 27, 2018, 12:49:35 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

So you're not a member of the group you have advise for?  OK.

As a black man, you didn't ever benefit from affirmative action in your career . . . and in fact, felt that it held you back?

Not quite sure I understand. Is my advice to this community I'm not a member of to take personal responsibility for your actions, work hard, and resist the notion that some systematic evil will keep you down no matter what you do? Well, then, ok yeah. That sure is my advice.

I think it's dangerous to start only listening to the opinions of people who are part of that specific group. We could look at anyone's post history and find some fault in what they said about a group they aren't a part of.

I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1508 on: April 27, 2018, 12:51:36 PM »
I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

At this point, I think we need clarification. Are you, yourself, black?

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1509 on: April 27, 2018, 12:57:33 PM »
I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

At this point, I think we need clarification. Are you, yourself, black?

No. Is there some place where I insinuated I was? I will gladly correct anything that seems to mislead others as I have no intention of portraying myself as someone I'm not.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1510 on: April 27, 2018, 01:02:00 PM »
I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

At this point, I think we need clarification. Are you, yourself, black?
Not sure who the "we" are, but I hope I'm not the only one who would prefer not to be included in that group.

The merit of a position should not depend on the race, gender, etc. of the person proposing it.

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1511 on: April 27, 2018, 01:04:11 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

First, I disagree that every person without exception has that ability. Second, I agree with where you're coming from that giving people a scapegoat to blame their problems on can be counterproductive but does this in turn mean we can't recognize the oppression that does exist? Perhaps most people could overcome unfair situations with the right amount of effort applied in the right direction, does that mean we shouldn't make an effort to make their situation more fair?

Not to mention, even though someone has the ability to do something

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1512 on: April 27, 2018, 01:12:31 PM »
I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

At this point, I think we need clarification. Are you, yourself, black?
Not sure who the "we" are, but I hope I'm not the only one who would prefer not to be included in that group.

The merit of a position should not depend on the race, gender, etc. of the person proposing it.

I think it was only asked because someone made the assumption that he was black and was not corrected in the following comment.

Personally, I didn't think the question needed to be asked but I see nothing wrong with asking it. And yes, the merit of an opinion can depend on who you are. Everyone can have their opinion but I would take the opinions of a black person as more meaningful if the discussion is about the ways black people are stereotyped.

ETA: to clarify I'm not saying someone is automatically more right because of their color, but we have to make some assumptions when weighing the value of opinions. I would give more weight to the opinion of a ornithologist on the question of how much weight an African swallow can carry than I would to a random person on the street, but that doesn't mean the ornithologist can't be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:21:04 PM by Dabnasty »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1513 on: April 27, 2018, 01:16:02 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

So you're not a member of the group you have advise for?  OK.

As a black man, you didn't ever benefit from affirmative action in your career . . . and in fact, felt that it held you back?

Not quite sure I understand. Is my advice to this community I'm not a member of to take personal responsibility for your actions, work hard, and resist the notion that some systematic evil will keep you down no matter what you do? Well, then, ok yeah. That sure is my advice.

I think it's dangerous to start only listening to the opinions of people who are part of that specific group. We could look at anyone's post history and find some fault in what they said about a group they aren't a part of.

I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

Take responsibility for your actions and work hard is pretty generic advice that's given by everyone from the reddest communist to the whitest libertarian.

You're advising poor black people in an inner city how to live their lives based on your personal belief . . . which is shaped by your life experiences.  If those experiences don't include being poor or living in the inner city, well, I was assuming that your experience being black is what you were drawing upon.

It's great to offer advice as a way to help.  When you don't belong to a particular community, telling the people who do that disadvantages they face don't exist is a bit tone deaf.

AnswerIs42

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1514 on: April 27, 2018, 01:18:22 PM »
- Men are given full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

As long as it's legal to disfigure baby boys' penises without their consent, I would say that men do not have full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1515 on: April 27, 2018, 01:21:10 PM »
I'm not sure how to respond to your last question. Are you being facetious? Your previous post had me thinking you aren't arguing in good faith.

At this point, I think we need clarification. Are you, yourself, black?
Not sure who the "we" are, but I hope I'm not the only one who would prefer not to be included in that group.

The merit of a position should not depend on the race, gender, etc. of the person proposing it.

I think it was only asked because someone made the assumption that he was black and was not corrected in the following comment.

Personally, I didn't think the question needed to be asked but I see nothing wrong with asking it. And yes, the merit of an opinion can depend on who you are. Everyone can have their opinion but I would take the opinions of a black person as more meaningful if the discussion is about the ways black people are stereotyped.

Yeah it is partly my fault. I did consider writing something in response to GuitarStv's post, but I kind of thought he was making fun, rather than being genuinely curious.

I do agree with you here. It is much more valuable to hear from someone who grew up in a black community. Someone who is able to give a real story to empathize with. What their story is and what they believe is best for the community is absolutely of value.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1516 on: April 27, 2018, 01:23:30 PM »
- Men are given full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

As long as it's legal to disfigure baby boys' penises without their consent, I would say that men do not have full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

Children are typically not considered adult, and have many decisions made for them by their parents (right or wrong).  A baby boy is not a man.

(As an aside, last I checked the balance of evidence showed a small but statistically significant net health benefit for circumcision.  Is this no longer the case?)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1517 on: April 27, 2018, 01:29:27 PM »
No. Is there some place where I insinuated I was? I will gladly correct anything that seems to mislead others as I have no intention of portraying myself as someone I'm not.

That's kind of what I inferred from this paragraph:

I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

(Emphasis mine)

I think it's the use of the first-person.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:31:22 PM by NoStacheOhio »

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1518 on: April 27, 2018, 01:30:04 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Can I ask, how many years have you been a member of the black community in your city?

0. I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

First, I disagree that every person without exception has that ability. Second, I agree with where you're coming from that giving people a scapegoat to blame their problems on can be counterproductive but does this in turn mean we can't recognize the oppression that does exist? Perhaps most people could overcome unfair situations with the right amount of effort applied in the right direction, does that mean we shouldn't make an effort to make their situation more fair?

Not to mention, even though someone has the ability to do something

Now thinking of this a little more, I did take a slightly extreme position there. You have plenty of folks with disabilities and chronic health issues that can't just magically go away. I would hold my position for the vast majority of people though.

As for the bolded part, absolutely not. We should absolutely identify oppression and injustice and I will be beside you fighting it. What turns me off of issues like police brutality, is when the media and BLM prop up someone like Michael Brown and equate him to Walter Scott. To me it seems that people are pushing a racism narrative further than actual racism exists, and it hurts their cause.

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1519 on: April 27, 2018, 01:36:19 PM »
No. Is there some place where I insinuated I was? I will gladly correct anything that seems to mislead others as I have no intention of portraying myself as someone I'm not.

That's kind of what I inferred from this paragraph:

I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling. I think the message that a lot of people in this community see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed. It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my community. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

(Emphasis mine)

I think it's the use of the first-person.

I added on "in the US" to the end of that so that it matches exactly the language I quoted from partgypsy. I also changed 'community' to 'city' so as not to insinuate I'm part of the black community in my city.

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1520 on: April 27, 2018, 02:00:06 PM »
telling the people who do that disadvantages they face don't exist

is NOT equivalent to

but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

Let's play a fun game. Here's Thomas Sowell explaining why eliminating the minimum wage will be good for the black community. You can't advise these communities otherwise because you did not grow up in the inner city like Thomas Sowell. Any advice you give that contradicts this advice will obviously be harmful because...

You're advising poor black people in an inner city how to live their lives based on your personal belief . . . which is shaped by your life experiences.


Obviously this is me being facetious and I don't hold this belief. In fact I said separately that any ideas are open to criticism and that you do not have to be part of a group to offer ideas. I just wish you would actually criticize my idea, rather than attacking me personally.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1521 on: April 27, 2018, 02:44:26 PM »
I might be slightly biased, living in a majority black city, but I do think this is the biggest cultural issue we are battling in the US. I think the message that a lot of people in this city see is that no matter what you do, you can't get ahead because you're oppressed.

We might be running into a macro/micro confusion issue here.

On a micro level, sure . . . wallowing in self pity doesn't help anything.  On a macro level, there still exist fundamental disparities with regards to the treatment of people based on race.  Both of these are true.

I don't buy the argument that believing that they are oppressed prevents many (if any) people from getting ahead in life.  If you have evidence of this, I would be interested in seeing it.

Being oppressed prevents many people from getting ahead in life.  I can find ample evidence of this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915460/
https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/46946_CH_3.pdf
http://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand_LakishaJamal.pdf
http://www1.uwindsor.ca/criticalsocialwork/institutional_racism

Sure, on the micro scale everyone should work hard and do their best.  Nobody's arguing with that.  If you're black though, you're probably not going to be as successful as an equally hard working white person.  That's fundamentally unfair, and is something that we need to be addressing.  My concern with your post is that you seem to be quite dismissive of this fact.



It's incredibly sad to see this line of thinking in the young folks in my city. Most of them are growing up in fatherless homes, going to bad schools, growing up in poverty, but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe there's no hope for them or that the world is full of people that hate them.

You mentioned:
Quote
I'm blessed to not live in the higher-crime higher-poverty areas of town. I have good health, a good job, a good community of friends, and good financial security thanks to this site and many of this forum. I'm better off than most in my town and I absolutely believe that every single person has the ability to escape whatever bad living situation they are currently struggling with.

So I have to ask, what are you basing your observations on?  What exactly is your relationship with the young black folks of your city?  How many heart-to-heart conversations have you had with them where you discovered that the reason they don't try to get ahead is that they're oppressed?  From your post it sounds like you don't really hang around in similar circles at all.



but they'll be permanently stuck there as long as they wrongly believe ... that the world is full of people that hate them.

Discrimination exists.  There are people who hate minorities, many of them in positions of power.  If all lack people treated the police the same way that white people do . . . well, they would often end up in bad situations, sometimes dead (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html, https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/study-finds-police-fatally-shoot-unarmed-black-men-at-disproportionate-rates/2016/04/06/e494563e-fa74-11e5-80e4-c381214de1a3_story.html?noredirect=on, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180205134232.htm, https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/black-people-more-likely-be-stopped-cops-study-finds-n616546).  You believe that recognizing the fact that it's not a level playing field is holding black people back.  I'd argue that (at least in some circumstances), it's keeping them safe.



I just wish you would actually criticize my idea, rather than attacking me personally.

I don't believe that I have attacked you personally at any point.  Please provide a quote where I did so, and I'll be happy apologize if I'm wrong.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1522 on: April 27, 2018, 03:54:34 PM »
This just sounds like their ideas are being criticized in the marketplace of ideas.  But they can freely express them.

So, just to be clear.. being called a coon, traitor, or Uncle Tom is simply criticism in the marketplace of ideas?

If I responded to an anti-Trump poster here by calling them names and saying I don't want to hear what they have to say, you all would pile-on (rightly so). How is this any different?


Name-calling is always a sloppy substitute for actual thought/argument.

But it's legitimate for black people, e.g., to criticize another black person for supporting a candidate/president who trafficks so openly in racism, bigotry, tribalism, and white supremacy.

Are you talking about Kanye? We may not be talking about the same thing. I was referring to Candace Owens' interview I linked. As far as I can tell, she was called names just for coming out as conservative.

It's legitimate to criticize anyone for any idea they may have, as long as that criticism is backed up with facts and reason. I think the main point Zoltani was getting across is that there is absolutely 'wrong think' especially in the black community. People's opposing ideas are not attacked; the people holding those opposing ideas are.

Both Kanye and Candace Owens have been called a variety of those names.

And, I'd say, for many of the same reasons. Candace Owens has said a lot of basically the same things that Kanye has. And they both support a candidate/president that I referred to above.

So, I'll reiterate: name-calling is a lazy substitute for actual critique.

The actual critiques of them, however, are valid.

cliffhanger

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1523 on: April 27, 2018, 04:21:52 PM »
Awww yeah, facts and studies. Now we're talking. Perhaps this warrants a new topic.

marty998

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1524 on: April 27, 2018, 08:02:02 PM »
- Men are given full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

As long as it's legal to disfigure baby boys' penises without their consent, I would say that men do not have full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

Children are typically not considered adult, and have many decisions made for them by their parents (right or wrong).  A baby boy is not a man.

(As an aside, last I checked the balance of evidence showed a small but statistically significant net health benefit for circumcision.  Is this no longer the case?)

@GuitarStv I love you, but I disagree here. Boys should be left intact, and be free to choose whether to snip or not to snip when they are old enough.

All and sundry rightly denounce FGM, the hypocrisy regarding boys in this day and age is hard to accept.

On the subject of health benefits, it's not particularly challenging to learn how to maintain proper hygiene down there if you are uncut... I mean really, less than 10 seconds in the shower is all it takes.

I understand there are studies out there regarding STD infection rates, but condoms will solve most of that.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1525 on: April 27, 2018, 09:13:54 PM »
Not saying that every infant boy should be circumcised, but there are small but measurable medical benefits to circumcism. And when circumcism needs to be done when adult, it is more painful and  complicated. This is something that does happen, especially in the elderly where there  are recurrent infections, and it's not pretty. Inntrast there are no medical indications for fgm, in fact depending on the type done has disfigured, causes complications with peeing and giving birth, and even resulted in death.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1526 on: April 27, 2018, 09:28:33 PM »
...well this thread took an unexpected turn...

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1527 on: April 28, 2018, 08:35:49 AM »
- Men are given full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

As long as it's legal to disfigure baby boys' penises without their consent, I would say that men do not have full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

Children are typically not considered adult, and have many decisions made for them by their parents (right or wrong).  A baby boy is not a man.

(As an aside, last I checked the balance of evidence showed a small but statistically significant net health benefit for circumcision.  Is this no longer the case?)

@GuitarStv I love you, but I disagree here. Boys should be left intact, and be free to choose whether to snip or not to snip when they are old enough.

All and sundry rightly denounce FGM, the hypocrisy regarding boys in this day and age is hard to accept.

On the subject of health benefits, it's not particularly challenging to learn how to maintain proper hygiene down there if you are uncut... I mean really, less than 10 seconds in the shower is all it takes.

I understand there are studies out there regarding STD infection rates, but condoms will solve most of that.


Circumcision of a grown adult (indeed, even of an older boy) is more complicated and more likely to lead to problems.  In a young boy, the problems associated occur in 0.4% of cases . . . in adults it's 4-8%.(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478224/)

It is immediately and permenantly protective for STIs, but also for quite a few other things:
- Urinary tract infection
- Penile inflammation(balanitis, balanoposthitis, lichen sclerosus)
- Candidiasis
- Phimosis and paraphimosis
- Cancers of the penis, prostate, and cervix
- Sexually transmitted infections including high-risk  (HPV), herpes simplex virus, trichomoniasis, mycoplasma, syphilis, chancroid, and HIV
(https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=CDC-2014-0012-0002)

I didn't get my son circumcised when he was a child.  In retrospect (and after several more years to do research), I kinda regret the decision.  The benefit isn't huge, but it pretty clearly outweighs the negatives . . . and it is worse to wait until a man is older to perform the circumcision.  The problem with your advice to wait is that by the time he's old enough to choose, the benefits are likely to be outweighed by the disadvantages.  Hopefully my son will not be too disadvantaged by my actions.



...well this thread took an unexpected turn...

Don't get snippy.  :P

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1528 on: April 28, 2018, 12:25:11 PM »
- Men are given full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

As long as it's legal to disfigure baby boys' penises without their consent, I would say that men do not have full autonomy over their bodies in all situations.

Children are typically not considered adult, and have many decisions made for them by their parents (right or wrong).  A baby boy is not a man.

(As an aside, last I checked the balance of evidence showed a small but statistically significant net health benefit for circumcision.  Is this no longer the case?)

@GuitarStv I love you, but I disagree here. Boys should be left intact, and be free to choose whether to snip or not to snip when they are old enough.

All and sundry rightly denounce FGM, the hypocrisy regarding boys in this day and age is hard to accept.

On the subject of health benefits, it's not particularly challenging to learn how to maintain proper hygiene down there if you are uncut... I mean really, less than 10 seconds in the shower is all it takes.

I understand there are studies out there regarding STD infection rates, but condoms will solve most of that.


Circumcision of a grown adult (indeed, even of an older boy) is more complicated and more likely to lead to problems.  In a young boy, the problems associated occur in 0.4% of cases . . . in adults it's 4-8%.(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478224/)

It is immediately and permenantly protective for STIs, but also for quite a few other things:
- Urinary tract infection
- Penile inflammation(balanitis, balanoposthitis, lichen sclerosus)
- Candidiasis
- Phimosis and paraphimosis
- Cancers of the penis, prostate, and cervix
- Sexually transmitted infections including high-risk  (HPV), herpes simplex virus, trichomoniasis, mycoplasma, syphilis, chancroid, and HIV
(https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=CDC-2014-0012-0002)

I didn't get my son circumcised when he was a child.  In retrospect (and after several more years to do research), I kinda regret the decision.  The benefit isn't huge, but it pretty clearly outweighs the negatives . . . and it is worse to wait until a man is older to perform the circumcision.  The problem with your advice to wait is that by the time he's old enough to choose, the benefits are likely to be outweighed by the disadvantages.  Hopefully my son will not be too disadvantaged by my actions.



...well this thread took an unexpected turn...

Don't get snippy.  :P

You know what else prevents a lot of those problems?  Hygiene and safe sex.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1529 on: April 28, 2018, 12:41:18 PM »
You know what else prevents a lot of those problems?  Hygiene and safe sex.

Don't be ridiculous.  It's much better to just take a knife and chop up a baby's penis.  The church says so!

I really think this is one of those issues that future generations will look back on with horror, like slavery or bloodletting.  Things that seem culturally acceptable today may not be looked on so favorably in the future.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1530 on: April 28, 2018, 12:43:11 PM »
You forgot to mentioned complete abstenism, and continuous access to Western medical care as well. Circumcism may seem barbaric, but it is a whole lot less barbaric doing it to an infant, than having to do a similar procedure to a grown adult. They now give newborns pain meds for it. . I work at the VA,  and yes men as adults do get circumcised for medical reasons. Not everyone does practice safe sex. Not everyone does good hygeine, particularly when the person becomes elderly or has become incapacitated in some way. It is a lot more medically serious to circumcised an adult than a newborn.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 12:55:14 PM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1531 on: April 28, 2018, 02:25:37 PM »
You know what else prevents a lot of those problems?  Hygiene and safe sex.

Don't be ridiculous.  It's much better to just take a knife and chop up a baby's penis.  The church says so!

I really think this is one of those issues that future generations will look back on with horror, like slavery or bloodletting.  Things that seem culturally acceptable today may not be looked on so favorably in the future.

Some churches may recommend it, but personally I put more stock in the recommendations of the CDC and WHO . . . who also say that it's worth doing.

As a circumcised guy, I'd also like to point out that my penis is very much intact some thirty odd years after the procedure.  :P

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1532 on: April 28, 2018, 05:13:02 PM »
You know what else prevents a lot of those problems?  Hygiene and safe sex.

Don't be ridiculous.  It's much better to just take a knife and chop up a baby's penis.  The church says so!

I really think this is one of those issues that future generations will look back on with horror, like slavery or bloodletting.  Things that seem culturally acceptable today may not be looked on so favorably in the future.

Yep. It's far more common in the US than it is in most other countries, too. This is of course excluding Muslim countries (religious reasons) and parts of Africa, where it's being encouraged to help prevent the spread of AIDS.

Obviously there's more to a population's overall health than life expectancy, but it's one metric we have to go on regarding general health/quality of care. Iceland, Japan, Australia, UK, Switzerland, and Norway all have significantly higher life expectancies (and dramatically cheaper health care, but that's another topic).   

In Australia, the 2010 estimate was that 10-20% of newborn boys were being circumcised. Across Europe as a whole, a national survey in 2000 showed that 15.8% of men/boys between 16-44 were circumcised. 11.7% of 16-19yo's. People in the UK are calling to get the rate down to 2%, because 3.8% was too high (misdiagnoses resulting in circumcisions for medical reasons).

Too many English boys, especially those under 5 years of age, are still being circumcised because of misdiagnosis of phimosis. What is phimosis? At birth, the foreskin is almost invariably non-retractable, but this state is transient and resolves in nearly all boys as they mature. Such normality, with an unscarred and pliant preputial orifice, is clearly distinguishable from pathological phimosis, a condition unambiguously characterised by secondary cicatrisation of the orifice, usually due to balanitis xerotica obliterans.4 This problem, the only absolute indication for circumcision, affects some 0.6% of boys,4 peaks in incidence at 11 years of age, and is rarely encountered before the age of 5.1,4 On this basis, the steeply falling circumcision rates among 0-4 year olds are readily explicable and lesser declines among 5-9 year olds are consistent with this group containing a proportion with pathological phimosis. Among 10-14 year olds, pathological phimosis is the predominant indication,1 thereby explaining the static rates of circumcision throughout England and their lack of geographical variation.

Recent trends are therefore consistent in direction, but not in extent, with the evidence base. Strictly, only some 0.6% of boys with pathological phimosis need to be circumcised,4 although more relaxed criteria would allow for a similar proportion affected by recurrent balanoposthitis.5 None the less, the trend towards evidence based practice already pays dividends. Circumcision costs about £500 as a daycase procedure, and some 10 000 fewer circumcisions in 1997-8 than in 1992-3 release £5m for other purposes. A reduction in the proportion of English boys circumcised to an attainable target of 2% would make for about 6000 fewer circumcisions each year, with a corresponding saving of £3m.

0.6% of 0.6% require circumcision for medical reasons. That's...0.0036%? 3.6 out of 100,000.

More from Wikipedia for other countries:
Quote
In Finland, the overall prevalence of circumcision is 2%, according to a recent publication by the Finnish Health Ministry.[40]

In Germany, the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents found that 10.9% of boys aged 0–17 had been circumcised.[37]

In France, according to a telephone survey (TNS Sofres Institute, 2008), 14% of men are circumcised.[41]

The overall prevalence of circumcision in Spain is reported to be 1.8%.[12]

In 1986, 511 out of approximately 478,000 Danish boys aged 0–14 years were circumcised. This corresponds to a cumulative national circumcision rate of around 1.6% by the age of 15 years.[42]

Generally I find that people tend to support whatever option their parents chose for them.  As far as health reasons are concerned, it would appear that either all these other modern countries are wrong or it's not necessary. I'm putting my money on the latter.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1533 on: April 28, 2018, 05:40:31 PM »
I think this conversation got way off track!

Do any of you think Mueller will come up with enough evidence to put Donny boy in jail?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1534 on: April 28, 2018, 05:49:34 PM »
I think this conversation got way off track!

Do any of you think Mueller will come up with enough evidence to put Donny boy in jail?

I think he'll have enough evidence to warrant prison time, but I'm skeptical that it'll actually happen.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1535 on: April 28, 2018, 06:02:18 PM »
I think this conversation got way off track!

Do any of you think Mueller will come up with enough evidence to put Donny boy in jail?

Wait, are either of them circumcized?

Ok, seriously - for anything short of a capitol felony is unlikely to result in a criminal trial for a sitting president.   After he's out of office all bets are off.
So there are three* methods where DJT leaves office; he resigns, he is impeached and removed or he finished out his term(s). If it becomes clear he's going to face criminal charges I don't see DJT resigning and giving up that one protection.  Heck, he may try to self-pardon.  The GOP seems incredibly unlikely to impeach, so there would need to be a monumentally big shift in the midterms in both the house AND the senate.  67 senators would need to vote to remove, and its hard to see how get there before 2020, with only 8 GOP seats up for re-election. Even if that DID happen there would be considerable pressure on Pence to pardon (a-la-Ford to Nixon).
So ultimately we're left with him carrying out his term.  If/when that happens I think DJT will spent a lot of time in both civil and criminal lawsuits.  Assuming a Dem is the next president, I could still see either a pardon or clemency to temper the wrath of his supporters. It will ahve to be really damning and solid evidence to avoid these scenarios, IMO.

IN sum - it depends on what crime(s) he may have committed and how strong the evidence is, but I don't see how he would go to jail before at least 2021 (if ever).


* alright, technically he could die, but dead men can't be prosecuted, and they certainly won't send dead men to jail.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1536 on: April 28, 2018, 06:07:31 PM »
I think this conversation got way off track!

Do any of you think Mueller will come up with enough evidence to put Donny boy in jail?
Given all the years Trump's finances have been audited without criminal prosecution, and that no solid evidence has emerged to implicate him in anything criminal regarding the 2016 election, I'd guess the odds are about the same as the odds that Obama is not a US citizen.

Both those positions suffer from "not being able to prove a negative" so it's possible that some evidence will come forth, but we're just guessing here.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1537 on: April 28, 2018, 06:53:51 PM »
I think this conversation got way off track!

Do any of you think Mueller will come up with enough evidence to put Donny boy in jail?
Given all the years Trump's finances have been audited without criminal prosecution, and that no solid evidence has emerged to implicate him in anything criminal regarding the 2016 election, I'd guess the odds are about the same as the odds that Obama is not a US citizen.

Both those positions suffer from "not being able to prove a negative" so it's possible that some evidence will come forth, but we're just guessing here.
Do we think there is equivalence between an IRS audit and a Mueller investigation? Seems like Mueller's work has already revealed some nefarious money hiding (ala Manafort) that the IRS didn't pick up on.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1538 on: April 28, 2018, 07:18:09 PM »
Do we think there is equivalence between an IRS audit and a Mueller investigation? Seems like Mueller's work has already revealed some nefarious money hiding (ala Manafort) that the IRS didn't pick up on.
Anything's possible, and Search warrant reveals Mueller's interest in Manafort's actions during Trump campaign - CNNPolitics is at least relevant to the 2016 campaign.

Of course, things Manafort did decades before he ran the Trump campaign don't count for the question at hand.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1539 on: April 28, 2018, 07:39:49 PM »
Here's a question. I've heard that Trump is barred from doing business in Australia due to his ties with organized crine. What if Mueller's investigation turns up crimes or illegal activity of Trump, not about the Russian election tampering, but stuff in the past. Would he be prosecuted for those things or not?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 07:41:45 PM by partgypsy »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1540 on: April 28, 2018, 07:41:40 PM »
Here's a question. I've heard that Trump is barred from doing business in Australia die to his ties with organized crine. What if Mueller's investigation turns up crimes or illegal activity of Trump, not about the Russian election tampering, but stuff in the past. Would he be prosecuted for those things or not?

I think that's why there's so much complaining about Mueller allegedly going outside of the scope of his investigation -- he might not end up with what they started out looking for, but if you have a search warrant for cocaine and find heroin on the table, it's all fair game :P

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1541 on: April 28, 2018, 07:53:51 PM »
Here's a question. I've heard that Trump is barred from doing business in Australia due to his ties with organized crine.
Don't know about "is barred."  Thirty years ago there was a Trump bid that was one of three that was rejected following a Police Board investigation into all the bidders for the project, which was later abandoned.

Quote
What if Mueller's investigation turns up crimes or illegal activity of Trump, not about the Russian election tampering, but stuff in the past. Would he be prosecuted for those things or not?
Possibly.  That does get us into murky waters, with "if one breaks the law, one should be held responsible" on one hand, vs. "investigations of specific people are supposed to come after evidence of a crime; we don't investigate people in the hopes of discovering they have committed a crime" on the other.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1542 on: April 28, 2018, 08:18:01 PM »
Here's a question. I've heard that Trump is barred from doing business in Australia due to his ties with organized crine. What if Mueller's investigation turns up crimes or illegal activity of Trump, not about the Russian election tampering, but stuff in the past. Would he be prosecuted for those things or not?

As I understand it, many constitutional scholars think that prosecuting a sitting president for crimes committed before he took office would be almost impossible, because it would impermissibly interfere with the President’s ability to carry out his constitutionally assigned functions and because the constitution gives congress (and no one else) the explicit authority to impeach a president for high-crimes and misdemeanors.

Not all legal experts agree, of course, but most seem to doubt a president could be tried while in office for anything short of a capitol felony.  Hypothetical white-collared crimes which took place when he was a private citizen?  forgetabout.... but they could come up immediately after he leaves office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/06/08/sitting-presidents-cant-be-prosecuted-probably/?utm_term=.244d7843ab65

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1543 on: April 28, 2018, 09:30:33 PM »
Here's a question. I've heard that Trump is barred from doing business in Australia due to his ties with organized crine.
Don't know about "is barred."  Thirty years ago there was a Trump bid that was one of three that was rejected following a Police Board investigation into all the bidders for the project, which was later abandoned.

Quote
What if Mueller's investigation turns up crimes or illegal activity of Trump, not about the Russian election tampering, but stuff in the past. Would he be prosecuted for those things or not?
Possibly.  That does get us into murky waters, with "if one breaks the law, one should be held responsible" on one hand, vs. "investigations of specific people are supposed to come after evidence of a crime; we don't investigate people in the hopes of discovering they have committed a crime" on the other.
As a matter of precedent, Ken Starr did not start out looking for Monica Lewinski’s blue dress.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1544 on: April 28, 2018, 09:42:10 PM »
no solid evidence has emerged to implicate him in anything criminal regarding the 2016 election, I'd guess the odds are about the same as the odds that Obama is not a US citizen.

Wow.  Totally not the same thing.

Trump literally fired the chief law enforcement officer investigating him.  Even if he was squeaky clean, that should be a crime.

Additionally, he literally went on tv and asked a foreign adversary to interfere in the election, then took a secret meeting with that adversary's official government representatives, then responded to follow up emails about coordinating the release of information damaging to his opponent, then lied about the whole thing including the president personally crafting a statement to lie about his son's involvement in the meeting.  None of that is disputed.  You can argue about whether or not it rises to the level of an indictable criminal action, but it is definitely NOT the same as baseless accusations that Obama was a secret Kenyan Muslim.  We're talking about things Trump actually did, which are clearly illegal for anyone who is not POTUS and are probably illegal even for him.  19 of his employees and associates have already been indicted, and you think he didn't know about any of that?  Just a coincidence that his entire organization is corrupt, but the man in charge is still an angel?

Oh, and let's not forget the blatantly illegal campaign finance violations (Stormy) or the taking of bribes from foreign leaders (Trump Int Hotel).  The man is a walking ethical violation, a homonculus of unAmerican activity.  Not that it matters. 

Really, I think the Mueller investigation is going to come down to "Can the President commit treason and then lie about it" and sadly, I think the answer is that as long as he's not under oath then yes, he's in the clear.  I suspect that the courts will hold that the President cannot commit treason, either as president or as a private citizen campaigning to become president, because we need to shield the holder of that office from all criminal prosecution regardless of the severity of crimes.  I think the President could literally murder his family in the white house in front of witnesses and avoid prosecution, because he's the President and the country needs him to execute the duties of his office no matter the ethical, moral, or criminal breaches he commits while doing so.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:54:02 PM by sol »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1545 on: April 28, 2018, 09:54:25 PM »
As a matter of precedent, Ken Starr did not start out looking for Monica Lewinski’s blue dress.
Are you saying that is a good thing (in other words, "that worked out well, so we should do more of that") or a bad thing (in other words, "that was an abuse of power and we should try very hard to prevent a similar recurrence")?

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1546 on: April 29, 2018, 02:09:11 AM »
What's Trump going to do when three of his kids are indicted on criminal charges?  Meltdown, surely, but to what effect?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1547 on: April 29, 2018, 06:22:34 AM »
As a matter of precedent, Ken Starr did not start out looking for Monica Lewinski’s blue dress.
Are you saying that is a good thing (in other words, "that worked out well, so we should do more of that") or a bad thing (in other words, "that was an abuse of power and we should try very hard to prevent a similar recurrence")?
IMHO this is how all criminal investigations should work, including but not limited to special investigators.  You start down one path and examine all lines of evidence and talk to a bunch of people.  If credible allagations of another crime turns up that has to be investigated.  It stops only when there are no more crimes to investigate.

What prevents such an investigation from becoming a never-ending fishing expedition is the oversight we already have. Mueller has to explain his reasoning to Rosenstein, and warrants to search and seize property must be approved by impartial federal judges. An investigator can't say "well, I've done all I can to see if person X committed a crime in _____ but I couldn't find the evidence, so now I'm going to investigate his brother in law just because I sense there's something dirty there, even though I have no evidence so far".  That will never fly, despite all the TV detective shows. During prosecution will always test whether the investigator had probably cause for discovering evidence.

The infamous blue dress is an interesting case, and I'll admit I never read the Starr report. On the surface I don't see how investigating an affair (immoral but not illegal) would be permitted, though it could have come up during the course of the investigation. Clinton was indicted on perjury FWIW.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1548 on: April 29, 2018, 07:51:07 AM »
This was a good discussion about "tribalism", about defending your "team" above everything else. He makes a good point that the statement "people have to be taught to hate" is not true, rather people have to be taught not to hate. As someone who works in science, I find very troubling the retreat from rationalism and reason and instead, and this is true for both political party's, pushing people's emotional buttons. I do feel he confuses the benefits of democracy and capitalism in describing the history of the US and democratized European nations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSp-Ztb9bvg
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:55:37 AM by partgypsy »

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #1549 on: April 29, 2018, 08:24:31 AM »
I heard Donny Boy was using his personal cell phone. Why isn't he reprimanded for that? I remember when Obama was elected he said the hardest thing for him was to give up his personal cell phone. Isn't this a threat to national security using his personal phone?

If Michael Cohen paid Stormy out of election funds, what do you think will happen? How would he have obtained the funds?

Michael Cohen says he will plead the 5th. How will they conduct a court case if he won't tell the truth or spill the beans?