Thoughts for those families in Connecticut

[tooqk4u22]

I know there are tragedies in life and I can accept that, but I struggle dearly when these tragedies are taken out on children regardless of the reason or event.   I don't understand how anyone can be that screwed up and how nobody ever sees it coming. I am deeply saddened right now. 

My thoughts go out to all those families in Connecticut today but others every other day that have to go through this. The things we discuss in this forum mean nothing by comparison.



EDIT - I am locking the thread as I did not intend or want this to turn into a gun or mental health debate or otherwise, and just wanted to convey my sympathies.  I saw the pictures of those that lost their lives again and I don't understand and am troubled by it and can't possibly imagine. 

[kolorado]

I was out grocery shopping this morning when I heard the news from another shopper practically yelling it to her companion down the aisle. I almost started crying right there. These things are just so terribly tragic. I'm hugging my kids a few extra times today. :.(

[c]

So shocking. It's just unbelievable. I can't begin to imagine what drives someone to do something like this. So many lives destroyed.

[Tradies wife]

I'm so so sad about this. I'm sad about it on many different levels. I'm sad because it is overwhelmingly a tragedy I'm sad for those that lost their lives, and those that now need to deal with the aftermath. I'm sad that it CAN happen. I'm sad because I can't see any sense in any of it. I'm sad that it points out that the mental health system where that man lived are obviously so stretched, that he didn't get help before making this stupid, stupid and needless thing happen. I'm not just sad though.

I am plain angry that this can happen. Here in Australia before 1996, we were a nation that held our gun licenses high and had pride that we could bear arms. But all that changed, quickly and suddenly after one massacre. 35 people dead. Our government made the very unpopular move to tighten up gun laws. Guns were handed in and destroyed on mass. People did the right thing by handing them in. No semi-automatic weapons. There was outrage, there was a lot of political unrest. But at the end of the day, the right thing was done. Thank goodness our Prime Minister at the time had the balls to do it. Prime Minister Howard spoke to George Bush about gun laws. It was a line they were clearly on opposite views about.

Yes, we were a young country that had depended on guns for years. Farmers needed them, it is a sport, it is part of our culture. But that did not stop the policies going through. We choose a different path for our country. There is no need at all for automatic guns of any description to be used unless in war fare. Guns need to be licensed here, locked up in a proper gun cabinet that is bolted to the floor with appropriate locks, they also need to be kept out of the house. They are checked and monitored. I also believe that, the license is only given to people who have passed their gun license test, and have been nominated by other members of the community as well as having a mental health assessment.

We still have people who compete at world standards in shooting. We still have gun clubs, and you can still go out hunting. It's just a lot more restricted.

I just hope that your government has the balls to look at what is needed to happen, as unpopular as that may be to save American lives. Yes, even though America seems a world away, we still cry for those lost to senseless violence. We still care.

My heart goes out to all the families that lost loved ones.

[totoro]

Such a loss and a tragedy.  I hope the USA does something about gun control as well.  In Canada last year there were fewer than 50 deaths from handguns, in the US there were over 10,000.  Nine times the population and more than 200x the deaths.  Something really needs to change, I wouldn't feel safe sending my kids to school without changes.

[prosaic]

I live 3 hours from Newtown.

People who defend the right for private citizens to own any semi-automatic/automatic weapon, or -- frankly -- any weapon you don't have to manually reload after 5 or 6 shots, value their guns over the lives of children.

I believe in gun rights. Responsible, reasonable gun rights.

[mustachecat]

It's an overwhelming tragedy. I don't have words for it. Devastating.

[Another Reader]

There is no mechanism for removing violent lunatics from our midst until they commit the horrendous crime.  That's the real problem.

[totoro]

We have violent lunatics too - the USA doesn't have a monopoly.  Schizophrenia and other mental illnesses do not recognize borders. Access to health care and restrictions on gun ownership along with public health info and programs for detection and treatment seem like reasonable expectations for a society with resources - at least to me.  The "there will always be lunatics" view is a way of deflecting responsibility IMO.  It is like looking at any illness and throwing up your hands.

[mindaugas]

What an absolutely appalling incident. Heart wrenching to say the least. I lost it when the news started giving the ages and it came out that most of it took place in a kindergarten classroom.

Such a loss and a tragedy.  I hope the USA does something about gun control as well.  In Canada last year there were fewer than 50 deaths from handguns, in the US there were over 10,000.  Nine times the population and more than 200x the deaths.  Something really needs to change, I wouldn't feel safe sending my kids to school without changes.

People who defend the right for private citizens to own any semi-automatic/automatic weapon, or -- frankly -- any weapon you don't have to manually reload after 5 or 6 shots, value their guns over the lives of children.

The majority of gun related deaths in the US are suicides. Prohibition doesn't work. Crazy maniacs like this shooter are going to find firearms regardless of laws. There is no magic answer for preventing acts like this, but I believe we can take some measures by focusing on the people that do this rather than the weapons they use. IMO our focus, efforts, and resources should be aimed at mental health.

The "there will always be lunatics" view is a way of deflecting responsibility IMO.  It is like looking at any illness and throwing up your hands.

Yep.

Here in Australia ... Our government made the very unpopular move to tighten up gun laws.

You forgot the part where armed robberies rose significantly and home invasions rose as well.
Assaults involving guns rose more than a 25% and murders with a gun rose nearly 20%.

As another example of strict gun laws and bans - in the UK gun related crime has nearly doubled since the ban.

Criminals don't obey the law, its that simple.

[strider3700]

As a Canadian  I have to agree. Even with our stricter gun laws the weapon he used is available here and won't be disappearing from the streets any time soon.   It's non trivial to get but it's not impossible. 

After a mass shooting terrorist event at a school in Israel, they started allowing trained plain clothed armed concealed carrying volunteers to be at the schools.  These are usually the parents and grand parents of the kids.   They've also armed the teachers.   These types of events have basically been eliminated.      Thailand did the same thing even though their government has traditionally been very very anti gun.     

Both countries have realized that they can't have a cop everywhere all the time and that they can't catch and prevent all of these events before they start.  Their goal is to minimize the damage done.

[totoro]

Mindgaus - your stats are off and your logic is not supported by the facts at all. 

Lets start off with this stat.  The US has the highest rate of gun ownership IN THE WORLD:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/schoo-shooting-how-do-u-s-gun-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

Wow - the US also has the highest rate of gun-related injuries IN THE WORLD.

In relation to suicide, our  rates of suicide are slightly higher than yours.  In Canada the rate of suicides by firearm is 3.3 per 100 000 in Canada and 7.7 per 100 000 in the US.   http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/1998/wd98_4-dt98_4/p4.html.   This mean twice as many folks commit suicide in the US by guns as Canada although our suicide rates are substantially the same.

I agree that treating mental health should be a focus, I do not agree that guns are not a huge glaring factor.

Now lets look at our respective homicide rates.  Canada's homicide rate is 1.62 and the rate in the US is 4.80.  In the states your murder rate is three times as high as Canada.  In 2010 there were 554 homicides in Canada.   http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2011001/article/11561-eng.htm  Only 27% of our homicides are by guns.   The weapon of choice here is the knife.  Knives are FAR LESS deadly than guns.  60% of all US homicides are by firearm.

A logical person might conclude:

1.  Higher rate of gun possession and access results in a higher murder rate.
2.  Higher rate of gun possession results in more suicides per capita by guns.
3.  Higher rate of gun possession results in more multiple murders.
4.  Higher rate of gun possession translates into greater violence across society.

We are only separated by an imaginary line.  What else could account for these startling differences?  Could it also be that the cumulative societal effects of increased rates of gun-related violence breeds greater rates of mental health issues and violence?

Phillip J. Cook estimated that such violence costs the USA $100 billion annually.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence  Emergency medical care is a major contributor to the monetary costs of such violence. It was determined in a study that for every firearm death in the USA for one year from 1 June 1992, an average of three firearm-related injuries were treated in hospital emergency departments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
 
Psychological costs of violence committed with guns are also clearly documented. James Garbarino found that individuals who experience violence are prone to mental and other health problems, such as post-traumatic stress disorder and sleep deprivation. These problems increase for those who experience violence as children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

[strider3700]

I don't understand the argument about suicide and guns.  As you pointed out the suicide rate in Canada is effectively the same as in the US.  This suggests that if you get rid of all guns you'll still have the same number of people committing suicide they'll just use a different method.

I believe if you look at the homicides in the US you'll find a large number of them are committed in poor urban areas. Canada has it's disadvantaged people  but in general our social net does a far better job at preventing people from reaching that level of desperation that inner city youth in the US are often stuck in.   

Also banning guns making any difference assumes that they actually disappear.  Based on the sheer number of firearms in the US, the lack of any way to tell where they are and how ingrained they are in the culture  I seriously doubt you'll see an end to firearms being easy to obtain any time soon.

[mindaugas]

You completely ignored the fact that firearm bans did NOT decrease the crime rate where they were applied.

[totoro]

You seem to have missed responding to the the points I have made regarding the relationship of gun ownership to homicide and injury stats.

If I understand it, your argument is now that gun control/bans do not work - in effect the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be contained again?   There may be some element of truth to this - or at least no quick fix - a culture that accepts the right to commit violence or supports social structures that lead to obesity or slavery, takes time to change. 

I was not proposing an outright ban, but strict regulation. But if we are going to discuss that lets look at Japan and Germany: http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/savelsberg1.html    In relation to the UK you failed to note that while the UK actually has a higher crime rate than the US, it has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world (could this be related to the ban??) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom   The data from Australia is not supportive of your position that a ban is not effective, but I don't have time to fully analyze it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia
 
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

I was never stating that suicide is increased by gun ownership - only that if guns are around people will use them whether to kill themselves or others.  I am far  less concerned with guns used in suicide than I am with homicide.   If someone wants to kill themselves they won't defend against it.  I'd much rather be in a crowd defending myself or kids from a knive weilding assailant than one with a semi-automatic weapon.

[mindaugas]

You seem to have missed responding to the the points I have made regarding the relationship of gun ownership to homicide and injury stats.

You seem to be ignoring these other countries with high gun ownership and low murder rates - Switzerland, Israel, New Zealand, and Finland.

only that if guns are around people will use them whether to kill themselves or others.

No, a gun is not a talisman containing pure evil that causes someone within its vicinity to kill people.

Here is a Harvard study backing me up.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I was not proposing an outright ban, but strict regulation.

So, as I was saying, gun control isn't going to solve this problem. I brought up banning because the argument is that guns increase murder and violent crime. If that's the case then the only logical thing to do is take away all guns. So I skipped over gun control and went straight at prohibition.

[totoro]

So, if I understand you correctly you attribute the much higher rate of homicides by firearms in the US to a greater incidence of mental illness or less available treatment and not to ease of availability of such firearms? 

Keep in mind this is homicide and not crime rates which I have not looked at closely enough to comment.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

We may have to agree to disagree.

[strider3700]

And my argument is that prohibition is very likely to fail just like everything else that has ever been prohibited so rather then waste time on this argument they should be looking into other ways to keep kids safe.

[totoro]

I agree that other ways to keep kids safe are important.   Mental health identification and treatment are really important.  I'm less clear on the relationship of violent video games that some folks point to as I haven't seent the stats.  What are you suggesting, an armed guard in each school?

I disagree that regulation and enforcement do not work.  You may be confusing regulation and prohibition?  Prohibition is the outright banning of something like alcohol or drugs.  Regulation can reach that level, but there are differing steps as to what is permissible under what circumstances. 

In my experience, loads and loads of people are fine to follow rules - in excess of 50%.  They feel guilty when they break them and don't want to get into trouble.  Penalties do dissuade the majority.

There are always a minority of folks who are not going to follow the rules if it does not suit them - the criminal element which are often the same, in my experience, as those with serious mental illnesses and/or addictions. 

In between are the people who follow the rules if they make sense.  Probably lots of people on this board fit the category.

The question for me is whether there ought to be greater regulation as part of the solution.  In my view that makes sense.  I'm no expert on the topic, but the stats between Canada and States tend to back up this theory.

[DoubleDown]

What are you suggesting, an armed guard in each school?

I would absolutely go for that, knowing that we're never going to stop deranged individuals from being deranged and dangerous with whatever is their weapon of choice (guns, knives, cars, grenades, you name it). Doesn't even have to be a full-time security guard, the cost would be next to nothing. We do the same now, arming pilots in commercial airlines.

Each school could solicit a few volunteers from among the staff (teachers, principals, custodians, administrative) willing to go through appropriate training and vetting. Then pay them a modest stipend (say, a few hundred dollars a month to maintain their training and prove their accuracy and understanding of gun safety). Although I'd bet you'd find people willing to do it for free, just out of wanting to help and to maintain their own security. Having a few trained and armed people everywhere could reduce the carnage significantly and provide an effective deterrent.

We put armed guards at all kinds of places we deem to hold "valuable" things like money, art, politicians, etc. Why don't we put them in schools or other places our children or citizens congregate (I realize there are already armed guards at many secondary and high schools)?

[totoro]

I think lots of folks would agree with you. 

Would I feel safer about the situation knowing there was one or more teacher's armed in each school.  Maybe.  This already happens in the states and here is some commentary: http://www.mommyish.com/2012/12/17/newtown-shooting-school-security/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=newtown-shooting-school-security

It makes me sad to feel like we actually don't have an answer and that things might keep on this way.