Author Topic: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion  (Read 16635 times)

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7006
  • Location: Washington DC
  • Cake or Death?
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2018, 03:43:53 PM »
Hey Wexler - feel free to post over in the action items thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/small-daily-acts-of-political-resistance/new/#new

jordanread

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7086
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Colorado Springs
  • Live Long, Live Free, Drop Dead
    • Frugal FIRE Show
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2018, 03:57:58 PM »
I'm not sure I understand this response, but I apologize if I violated the thread rules, and please feel free to report or delete if so.

You didn't violate any rules (especially here), and if what I said made you feel like I was saying that, I apologize.

We discuss things here. MJ is right in that actual actions you take should be posted in the 'Actions' thread. I believe she was applauding your comment. Post here (or at https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/small-daily-acts-of-political-resistance/)

More importantly,

We are a bit more lax here as far as propriety goes. So long as one is willing to backup their viewpoints, or are be willing to discuss their views, we welcome you.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 03:20:07 AM by jordanread »
I just wanted to teach you a lesson about the destructive power of wordplay.
Join the cycling challenge!
Get in shape in 2018!

Mathematically best is only best if you do it. A suboptimal plan that you actually execute on is MUCH better than a perfect plan you ignore.

CM*TO

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2018, 07:25:32 PM »
First you should understand that in order to pay into the social security system, you need a social security number, and illegal immigrants cannot legally obtain that.  This means every illegal immigrant contributing to the social security system has committed identity fraud/theft.

Just because illegal immigrants are ineligible for social safety net programs doesn't mean that none are on them.

You are correct. However, many undocumented immigrants use either a fake SS number, stolen SS number, a previously valid SS number, or an ITIN (as discussed above) which allow them to pay federal taxes and into social security. The IRA rarely pursues offenders hiring these folks because the penalty is a measly $50 per SS mismatch and it's just not worth the resources.

I am still waiting for you to provide those numbers. Looking more and more like you were just trolling.

Which numbers do you mean?

Feel free to peruse the previous post. Not going to repeat myself. It's not a long thread ( :

I disagree with almost everything @TornWonder has said, but still like to understand. This one, I'm with him. I looked. I even jumped to your profile and posts contributed to*. The closest thing I thought is below.



I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).

I don't think that @TornWonder was saying that immigration plays a role in wealth redistribution. I think what was being said is that in a society with some social safety nets, immigration needs to be controlled or the system gets overwhelmed, based on more people taking advantage of it. Or at least that's how I read it.

Correct.

The question is still viable. Weather you call it "wealth redistribution" or social programs. I see you didn't answer the question though. I assume (possibly incorrectly) that you have come to the conclusion you did based on some sort of figures, statistics, actual evidence. So we still sit at "significant" without any specific quantification as to what that means financially.

Is this the number you were referring to?


*You are ballsier than I am. I love a good chunk of your posts. You are awesome!!

I'll report someone breaking the law if I think there will be any possible action taken.  I'm not going to call in every speeder on the street because it would be basically impossible for the police to do anything about it and would simply tie up resources that could be helping to save a life somewhere else.  If someone is obviously driving recklessly/drunk I will call the police and report it.

One could argue against what you (and ICE) are doing by the same logic.

Sure, and it would be a valid argument if ICE didn't exist for the exact purpose that they are being used for.  If you don't think immigration laws should be enforced, that means you don't think immigration laws should exist, and that's what you should be arguing about.

If you don't think speeding laws should be enforced, that means you don't think speeding laws should exist, and that's what you should be arguing about.

TornWonder has already explained that reporting someone for speeding leads down a road to nowhere, there is no proof. It's not a matter of whether speeding laws should be enforced, but that they cannot be enforced in this manner.

Sure or worse case scenario it leads to the person getting a ticket. Worse case scenario of reporting folks to ICE is they are deported back into the life they so desperately were trying to escape. That often means torture, abuse, even death, etc. Perhaps for a large percentage of us, morality and the sanctity of human life are far more important than country of origin.

The job of ICE is to enforce immigration laws. It's not the job of TornWonder. In reality helping police catch speeders is arguably more humane, than helping ICE send folks back into often terrible situations. Personally I have no problems reporting obvious speeders, drunk drivers, etc. I see it as helping to serve the public safety and possibly saving a life (lives). But I have no ideal the nature of an immigrants background or situation that led to their desire to escape from it. It's not up to me to determine their fate nor do I see it as serving any sort of public good and could in fact be endangering a life (lives).

I was just responding to an illogical statement, and yes, in very obvious cases of speeding or reckless driving it may be worth reporting but we're getting away from the point of the analogy. Instead of continuing down that path I have another question for @TornWonder:

You state that you report illegals because they are breaking the law but I'm curious, is this the only reason you report them? I don't know your personal stance on the current laws, are you in agreement with them?
What other reason would I have to report them?

As for the current laws, I think if you have significant government social programs/wealth redistribution you need immigration control, otherwise the financial burden on the country is too great.  I would prefer open borders, but don't see the US moving away from government dependency anytime soon.

I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).
Earn 25K SPG Points after 3K spend: http://refer.amex.us/KYLEDiFKR?xl=cp10

Get $250 statement credit after 1K spend AMEX Blue Cash: http://refer.amex.us/KYLEDk5SI?xl=cp10

jordanread

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7086
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Colorado Springs
  • Live Long, Live Free, Drop Dead
    • Frugal FIRE Show
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #203 on: May 17, 2018, 04:05:21 AM »
That is super hard to read. I think I get it though.


I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).

Is this what you meant?
I just wanted to teach you a lesson about the destructive power of wordplay.
Join the cycling challenge!
Get in shape in 2018!

Mathematically best is only best if you do it. A suboptimal plan that you actually execute on is MUCH better than a perfect plan you ignore.

CM*TO

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #204 on: May 17, 2018, 05:10:35 AM »
That is super hard to read. I think I get it though.


I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).

Is this what you meant?

Yep, just forgot to include the questions marks. Poor grammar on my part ( :
Earn 25K SPG Points after 3K spend: http://refer.amex.us/KYLEDiFKR?xl=cp10

Get $250 statement credit after 1K spend AMEX Blue Cash: http://refer.amex.us/KYLEDk5SI?xl=cp10

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1022
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #205 on: May 17, 2018, 07:24:15 AM »
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/federal-judge-accused-ice-of-making-up-evidence-to-prove-that-dreamer-was-gang-affiliated.html

Quote
On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Ricardo S. Martinez shot down the federal government’s efforts to strip Daniel Ramirez Medina of his DACA status. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement had arrested and detained Ramirez last year, then falsely claimed that he was affiliated with a gang and attempted to deport him. He filed suit, alleging that ICE had violated his due process rights. Martinez agreed. His order barred the federal government from voiding Ramirez’s DACA status, safeguarding his ability to live and work in the United States legally for the foreseeable future. What may be most remarkable about Martinez’s decision, though, is its blunt repudiation of ICE’s main claim—that Ramirez is “gang-affiliated.” The judge did not simply rule against ICE. He accused the agency of lying to a court of law.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spend in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spend needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Southwest Cards - Earn 50k miles for $2k spend in 3 months.
Premier -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/224/JY2BMSDZJ2
Plus -
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/223/F3ZW8H140N

Recommended Cell Service - Google's Project Fi: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

TornWonder

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #206 on: May 17, 2018, 10:28:59 AM »
That is super hard to read. I think I get it though.


I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).

Is this what you meant?

Yep, just forgot to include the questions marks. Poor grammar on my part ( :

I didn't say that immigration plays a significant role in wealth redistribution.  I said you either need strict immigration laws or minimized government social programs, otherwise there's only one eventuality, and it's not good.  If you'd like an example, look at the fall of the Roman Empire.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10659
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Small Daily Acts of Political Discussion
« Reply #207 on: May 17, 2018, 11:00:35 AM »
That is super hard to read. I think I get it though.


I am curious what specifically you mean by " significant." That's a very broad statement to quantify support of open borders.

Can you provide factual data showing immigration plays a significant role in " wealth redistribution." ( Not really sure what you mean by that either).

Is this what you meant?

Yep, just forgot to include the questions marks. Poor grammar on my part ( :

I didn't say that immigration plays a significant role in wealth redistribution.  I said you either need strict immigration laws or minimized government social programs, otherwise there's only one eventuality, and it's not good.  If you'd like an example, look at the fall of the Roman Empire.

Yep.  It was totally the social programs.  Not the invasions, civil war, destabilizing impact of the adoption of Christianity, inflation, loss of technological leadership, political corruption, urban decay, excessive military spending, etc.  C'mon man, that's a kinda goofy argument don't you think?