Author Topic: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?  (Read 3439 times)

ReadySetMillionaire

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For better or worse, I'm dipping my toe back into the Off Topic forum to get some answers from the pretty smart left-leaning posters on this forum, because I had this discussion with my mom (very liberal) and we could not figure this out.  My guess is it's "TRUMP!!!", but I'll leave it to you guys.

Some general observations:

- The traditional left view of the US Intelligence Community was that it was power-hungry and anti-American.  Domestically, our IC invades civil liberties.  Abroad, our Intelligence Community has toppled dozens, if not hundreds, of foreign governments and killed literally millions of people.  Hawks/tough on crime folks on the right supported this, while people on the left traditionally did not.

- I was in high school when the Iraq War started, and I specifically remember the complete bullshit that the intelligence community engaged in to garner public support.  The IC would leak something to a major news outlet, the news outlet would run the story with thin corroboration, and then you'd see Cheney/Rumsfield/Rice on Meet the Press stating, "There's been a report in the New York Times" .... about the exact bullshit they leaked! I was 17 years old and remember seeing the shell game for what it was.

- Then came the Patriot Act.  I had a post critical of the Patriot Act on here before, and I was accused of being a Russian asset.  Umm, since when do liberals support the Patriot Act?  It is arguably the most invasive act ever taken against civil liberties.  Almost every city in the country (most of them Democratic controlled) passed resolutions stating they would not comply with the Patriot Act.  There were huge protests.  Now it's sacrosanct, and if you're against it, you're a Russian asset?

- People like Ed Snowden and Chelsea Manning used to be lauded by the left as heroes and whistleblowers, while the right labeled them as traitors.  Now, because they were associated with Wikileaks, and RUSSIA!!!, they are no longer heroes to the left.

- The IC is doing the same thing now that it did during Iraq.  The largely uncorroborated Steele Dossier was "presented" to Trump by the IC; the IC then leaked the news of the meeting with Trump; which then gave grounds to publish the dossier; and then former members of the IC went on TV to discuss the Dossier and all the evidence the warrants stemming from it produced. 

***

So I guess what I'm asking, is when did this turn?  Is this purely a Trump dynamic in the same way that union voters used to vote democrat, but many have now turned to Trump because of his "tough on trade!!!" bullshit?  What's going on here?

Some articles from traditionally left-leaning writers that caught my attention:

Glenn Greenwald: https://theintercept.com/2019/12/12/the-inspector-generals-report-on-2016-fb-i-spying-reveals-a-scandal-of-historic-magnitude-not-only-for-the-fbi-but-also-the-u-s-media/

Quote
In this case, no rational person should allow standard partisan bickering to distort or hide this severe FBI corruption. The IG Report leaves no doubt about it. It’s brimming with proof of FBI subterfuge and deceit, all in service of persuading a FISA court of something that was not true: that U.S. citizen and former Trump campaign official Carter Page was an agent of the Russian government and therefore needed to have his communications surveilled.
***
If it does not bother you to learn that the FBI repeatedly and deliberately deceived the FISA court into granting it permission to spy on a U.S. citizen in the middle of a presidential campaign, then it is virtually certain that you are either someone with no principles, someone who cares only about partisan advantage and nothing about basic civil liberties and the rule of law, or both. There is simply no way for anyone of good faith to read this IG Report and reach any conclusion other than that this is yet another instance of the FBI abusing its power in severe ways to subvert and undermine U.S. democracy. If you don’t care about that, what do you care about?

Charlie Savage in the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/us/politics/fisa-surveillance-fbi.html

Quote
At more than 400 pages, the study amounted to the most searching look ever at the government’s secretive system for carrying out national-security surveillance on American soil. And what the report showed was not pretty.

The Justice Department’s independent inspector general, Michael E. Horowitz, and his team uncovered a staggeringly dysfunctional and error-ridden process in how the F.B.I. went about obtaining and renewing court permission under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, to wiretap Carter Page, a former Trump campaign adviser.

And Matthew Taibbi at the Rolling Stone: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/horowitz-report-steele-dossier-collusion-news-media-924944/

Quote
Officials on the “Crossfire Hurricane” Trump-Russia investigators went to extraordinary, almost comical lengths to seek surveillance authority of figures like Trump aide Carter Page. In one episode, an FBI attorney inserted the words “not a source” in an email he’d received from another government agency. This disguised the fact that Page had been an informant for that agency, and had dutifully told the government in real time about being approached by Russian intelligence. The attorney then passed on the email to an FBI supervisory special agent, who signed a FISA warrant application on Page that held those Russian contacts against Page, without disclosing his informant role.

These are all liberal columnists going against the grain of many of the left lauding clowns like Clapper, Comey, and Brennan, who liberals previously despised for their abuses of power. 

TRUMP!!!! is probably the explanation, but I'm just curious what people here think.

Sibley

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 02:24:13 PM »
I'm don't follow politics (I don't even watch the news right now). But for me, it's a matter of choosing the lessor evil. Do I choose Trump, who's ____ (insert whatever description, to me he's a spoiled child who has tantrums to get whatever he wants and thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread), or do I choose members of the Civil Service/Intelligence Community/Military who at least aren't obviously narcissistic and potentially suffering from dementia?

I choose the path of least damage, at least for now. At least the IC recognized the danger in Trump meeting with North Korea. Trump was clueless.

Edit: I am regularly accused of being a Leftist, but I'm really more towards the middle. You certainly wouldn't describe me as a radical.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 02:27:24 PM by Sibley »

Telecaster

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 02:27:13 PM »
And conservatives are excoriating the FBI as a corrupt tool of the state. 

Upside down world we live in. 

bacchi

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 02:37:00 PM »
It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

BDWW

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ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 03:22:51 PM »
It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

Agree that there are a lot of policy flip flops, and my mom and I discussed the ones you mentioned.

But I never, EVER, thought I’d see the left support the IC the way they do today. It’s not just a 180, it’s a 180 from what I perceived as an extremely firmly held belief of the left.

BECABECA

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 03:23:35 PM »
Since when have they not? Saying that you either support everything the intelligence community has ever done (including corruption) or else you don’t support the intelligence community at all is a false choice.

What you’ve outlined are abuses perpetrated by the intelligence community which the left didn’t support. But at the moment we have the entire U.S. intelligence community and the intelligence communities of our allies coming out to say that a foreign power interfered in our election, and then you have one dude who benefited saying not to trust anybody but him on the matter, well it’s pretty obvious who to side with on this.

And I consider myself pretty liberal but when Snowden released hundreds of thousands of classified documents and then immediately fled to Russia, I didn’t consider him a hero whistleblower. Leaking a specific classified document to the U.S. press would have sufficed for whistleblowing, and wouldn’t have required fleeing to an enemy territory to avoid prosecution as a traitor.

ysette9

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 04:19:20 PM »
I listened to the Fresh Air interview with Snowden a few months ago and found it really interesting. I highly recommend it. It did change my perspective on him and what he did, and why. Russia was pretty much his last choice but the Obama administration leaned heavily on other countries like France where he had lodged asylum claims.

Kris

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »
What @BECABECA said.

I do not think I have ever suspected the intelligence rank and file of anything other than doing their jobs to the best of their abilities. I’m sorry, but when the actual president of the actual United States accuses the entire FBI of being part of the deep state, and the GOP merrily follows him down that road, we are really in false equivalency territory to imply that the left has ever done/thought anything even remotely similar.

bacchi

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 05:03:16 PM »
It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

Agree that there are a lot of policy flip flops, and my mom and I discussed the ones you mentioned.

But I never, EVER, thought I’d see the left support the IC the way they do today. It’s not just a 180, it’s a 180 from what I perceived as an extremely firmly held belief of the left.

Q: Why does the right now support Russia (and still use "commie" as an epithet?)

A: It's more nuanced than a simple pro-anti dichotomy and the right is made up of various factions.


FISA has always been a joke. It's a rubber stamp process that needs more oversight (the abuses are almost as numerous as the legal FISA warrants). However, what BECABECA wrote applies to FISA and the IC:

What you’ve outlined are abuses perpetrated by the intelligence community which the left didn’t support. But at the moment we have the entire U.S. intelligence community and the intelligence communities of our allies coming out to say that a foreign power interfered in our election, and then you have one dude who benefited saying not to trust anybody but him on the matter, well it’s pretty obvious who to side with on this.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 07:22:23 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

The only person I immediately know of who's worked on figuring this out is Jonathan Haidt, who mostly points to the opposite, that liberals tend to be more libertarian, although the common parlance seems to indicate that libertarian belief is more conservative.  So there could be a signal problem; left wing libertarians probably aren't very vocal.

Source for the image below:
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en#t-531006

He has mentioned however(possibly in this video or others) a rising trend of authoritarian mindset from young people that tend to see challenge and opposing ideas as a sort of violence or danger, and I believe he lays this at the feet of social media and an essentially "helicopter parenting"-style of education that doesn't permit anti-fragility to develop.  He (sort of) covers this subject here:

"Leftism is the new fundamentalist religion"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PuxuGamWUM

I'm sure I've butchered his analysis so you'll have to watch his stuff on your own.

Gin1984

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2019, 07:26:25 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

The only person I immediately know of who's worked on figuring this out is Jonathan Haidt, who mostly points to the opposite, that liberals tend to be more libertarian, although the common parlance seems to indicate that libertarian belief is more conservative.  So there could be a signal problem; left wing libertarians probably aren't very vocal.

Source for the image below:
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en#t-531006

He has mentioned however(possibly in this video or others) a rising trend of authoritarian mindset from young people that tend to see challenge and opposing ideas as a sort of violence or danger, and I believe he lays this at the feet of social media and an essentially "helicopter parenting"-style of education that doesn't permit anti-fragility to develop.  He (sort of) covers this subject here:

"Leftism is the new fundamentalist religion"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PuxuGamWUM

I'm sure I've butchered his analysis so you'll have to watch his stuff on your own.
Can you explain "those that deplatform" for me?

scantee

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2019, 07:33:55 PM »
You are combining leftists and liberals when in reality these are two distinct groups— with different cultures, histories and policy preferences—in the US. Leftists are still very skeptical of the intelligence community as they always have been. Liberals are not and never were particularly opposed. Your mom and the writers you quote are mostly liberal (Greenwald is just...who knows) so it is not at all surprising to me that they have these views.

If anything has changed since Trump it’s that the general public is just starting to learn that the left and liberals are not the same thing. Causes a lot of confusion for those who have long just lumped them together.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2019, 07:58:03 PM »
Can you explain "those that deplatform" for me?
Generally and briefly--those that are quick to suggest that an individual espousing a countering opinion should not be permitted to voice such an opinion.  (It is subjective definitely, but I err on the side of free speech).

People that violently protest talks at universities, or at libraries, or pull fire alarms, or people that oppose controversial films being shown, etc.

bacchi

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2019, 09:39:21 AM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2019, 10:46:18 AM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

It pre-dates Trump.  Although we do see some similar manifestations on the right. 

Yes, mandated inclusiveness.  Here's what happened with BLM in Toronto, according to wikipedia:

In June 2016, Black Lives Matter was selected by Pride Toronto as the honoured group in that year's Pride parade, during which they staged a sit-in to block the parade from moving forward for approximately half an hour.[189] They issued a number of demands for Pride to adjust its relationship with LGBTQ people of colour, including stable funding and a suitable venue for the established Blockorama event, improved diversity in the organization's staff and volunteer base, and that Toronto Police officers be banned from marching in the parade in uniform.[190] Pride executive director Mathieu Chantelois signed BLM's statement of demand, but later asserted that he had signed it only to end the sit-in and get the parade moving, and had not agreed to honour the demands.[191]

MishMash

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2019, 11:35:37 AM »
This is so far off, it's kind of funny.  My entire family is liberal left, and guess what?  Most of them work in the IC, or in DHs case is career military, SOF at that.  I worked in IC for many years, we are a diverse bunch.  There has ALWAYS been support on the left for the IC, you just have to stop watching Faux news and talk to the people ACTUALLY doing the work. 

It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

Agree that there are a lot of policy flip flops, and my mom and I discussed the ones you mentioned.

But I never, EVER, thought I’d see the left support the IC the way they do today. It’s not just a 180, it’s a 180 from what I perceived as an extremely firmly held belief of the left.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2019, 11:54:35 AM »
This is so far off, it's kind of funny.  My entire family is liberal left, and guess what?  Most of them work in the IC, or in DHs case is career military, SOF at that.  I worked in IC for many years, we are a diverse bunch.  There has ALWAYS been support on the left for the IC, you just have to stop watching Faux news and talk to the people ACTUALLY doing the work. 

It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

Agree that there are a lot of policy flip flops, and my mom and I discussed the ones you mentioned.

But I never, EVER, thought I’d see the left support the IC the way they do today. It’s not just a 180, it’s a 180 from what I perceived as an extremely firmly held belief of the left.

I'm sure you and everyone has their anecdotal examples.  To clarify, I'm referring generally to modern American liberals, which Google tells me they support "ideas of civil liberty and equality with support for social justice and a mixed economy."  That generally conforms with how I understand modern liberals.

Political examples would include FDR, Clinton, Ginsberg type folks.  Media types would include Chris Hayes, Rachel Maddow, etc.

On that last example, if you would have told me 15 years ago that Rachel Maddow would be extolling the virtues and truth-telling of the intelligence community, and invited former heads of the departments on her show and giving them lip service interviews, I wouldn't believe you.

It's just a very, very strange observation in modern politics.  There are many other things that have flip-flopped, this being one of the most confusing ones to explain since the intelligence community is still basically doing the same bidding it's done since it was created.

partgypsy

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2019, 12:01:22 PM »
This is so far off, it's kind of funny.  My entire family is liberal left, and guess what?  Most of them work in the IC, or in DHs case is career military, SOF at that.  I worked in IC for many years, we are a diverse bunch.  There has ALWAYS been support on the left for the IC, you just have to stop watching Faux news and talk to the people ACTUALLY doing the work. 

It is fascinating how things have changed. A lot of positions have swapped, from free-trade to Russia to the IC.

Agree that there are a lot of policy flip flops, and my mom and I discussed the ones you mentioned.

But I never, EVER, thought I’d see the left support the IC the way they do today. It’s not just a 180, it’s a 180 from what I perceived as an extremely firmly held belief of the left.

Yes I was going to say something similar. When I went to my (very liberal) college, the CIA used to recruit there for employees. And always it was protested. But- the CIA wouldn't be recruiting there is they didn't get some good candidates. My friend's daughter is very interested as a career choice going into the intelligence community (FBI or CIA). They are all very well informed on various issues and happen to vote Democrat.
It is very true however people on the very left and very right are very suspicious of the intelligence community, and admittedly we have done as a country some pretty shameful things.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2019, 12:27:09 PM »
Cognitive dissonance? I find that can explain a fair number of things.

Also, anything on TV is pretty much meaningless in terms of reality. It's just entertainment. I think the vast majority of people care far less about the things that people on TV get so worked up about. So if you look to most of the media for signaling it's not necessarily going to reflect reality. It's always going to be more partisan, more divisive, and more bickering because that's what makes money. No one is going to watch two people with opposing views have a long deep conversation where they acknowledge nuance and agree on some things while disagreeing on others. They're going to get two people to scream at each other to appeal to the extremes on either side because that's where the money is.

GuitarStv

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2019, 01:07:41 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

It pre-dates Trump.  Although we do see some similar manifestations on the right. 

Yes, mandated inclusiveness.  Here's what happened with BLM in Toronto, according to wikipedia:

In June 2016, Black Lives Matter was selected by Pride Toronto as the honoured group in that year's Pride parade, during which they staged a sit-in to block the parade from moving forward for approximately half an hour.[189] They issued a number of demands for Pride to adjust its relationship with LGBTQ people of colour, including stable funding and a suitable venue for the established Blockorama event, improved diversity in the organization's staff and volunteer base, and that Toronto Police officers be banned from marching in the parade in uniform.[190] Pride executive director Mathieu Chantelois signed BLM's statement of demand, but later asserted that he had signed it only to end the sit-in and get the parade moving, and had not agreed to honour the demands.[191]

This is a kind of a weird example to use. 
- it didn't happen in the country under discussion (the United States)
- BLM didn't want 'mandated inclusiveness', they were protesting against including police officers
- The Pride organizers agreed to everything to stop the BLM protest, and then didn't follow through on the demands
- This has nothing to do with the intelligence community in Canada (or obviously, the US)

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2019, 01:17:25 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

It pre-dates Trump.  Although we do see some similar manifestations on the right. 

Yes, mandated inclusiveness.  Here's what happened with BLM in Toronto, according to wikipedia:

In June 2016, Black Lives Matter was selected by Pride Toronto as the honoured group in that year's Pride parade, during which they staged a sit-in to block the parade from moving forward for approximately half an hour.[189] They issued a number of demands for Pride to adjust its relationship with LGBTQ people of colour, including stable funding and a suitable venue for the established Blockorama event, improved diversity in the organization's staff and volunteer base, and that Toronto Police officers be banned from marching in the parade in uniform.[190] Pride executive director Mathieu Chantelois signed BLM's statement of demand, but later asserted that he had signed it only to end the sit-in and get the parade moving, and had not agreed to honour the demands.[191]

This is a kind of a weird example to use. 
- it didn't happen in the country under discussion (the United States)
- BLM didn't want 'mandated inclusiveness', they were protesting against including police officers
- The Pride organizers agreed to everything to stop the BLM protest, and then didn't follow through on the demands
- This has nothing to do with the intelligence community in Canada (or obviously, the US)

I said in my first post that this was a similar manifestation, not that it was directly related.  And sociopolitical influences don't stop at borders.

The mandated inclusiveness is exclusive in practice, because these activist leftist types have no interest whatsoever in including people they deem to be wrongthinkers, like police wearing uniforms at Toronto pride, for instance. (And deplatforming)

You might disagree but it's a pretty clear instance of authoritarian practice imo.

But the more I think about it, the more it's probably just #resisting Trump.  (In the context of the intelligence community).

GuitarStv

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2019, 01:35:02 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

It pre-dates Trump.  Although we do see some similar manifestations on the right. 

Yes, mandated inclusiveness.  Here's what happened with BLM in Toronto, according to wikipedia:

In June 2016, Black Lives Matter was selected by Pride Toronto as the honoured group in that year's Pride parade, during which they staged a sit-in to block the parade from moving forward for approximately half an hour.[189] They issued a number of demands for Pride to adjust its relationship with LGBTQ people of colour, including stable funding and a suitable venue for the established Blockorama event, improved diversity in the organization's staff and volunteer base, and that Toronto Police officers be banned from marching in the parade in uniform.[190] Pride executive director Mathieu Chantelois signed BLM's statement of demand, but later asserted that he had signed it only to end the sit-in and get the parade moving, and had not agreed to honour the demands.[191]

This is a kind of a weird example to use. 
- it didn't happen in the country under discussion (the United States)
- BLM didn't want 'mandated inclusiveness', they were protesting against including police officers
- The Pride organizers agreed to everything to stop the BLM protest, and then didn't follow through on the demands
- This has nothing to do with the intelligence community in Canada (or obviously, the US)

I said in my first post that this was a similar manifestation, not that it was directly related.  And sociopolitical influences don't stop at borders.

The mandated inclusiveness is exclusive in practice, because these activist leftist types have no interest whatsoever in including people they deem to be wrongthinkers, like police wearing uniforms at Toronto pride, for instance. (And deplatforming)

You might disagree but it's a pretty clear instance of authoritarian practice imo.

But the more I think about it, the more it's probably just #resisting Trump.  (In the context of the intelligence community).

I just don't follow your reasoning.  You were talking about 'mandated inclusiveness' and then gave an example of one group trying to force the exclusion of another group.  That's like . . . the opposite.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2019, 01:39:05 PM »
Cognitive dissonance? I find that can explain a fair number of things.

Also, anything on TV is pretty much meaningless in terms of reality. It's just entertainment. I think the vast majority of people care far less about the things that people on TV get so worked up about. So if you look to most of the media for signaling it's not necessarily going to reflect reality. It's always going to be more partisan, more divisive, and more bickering because that's what makes money. No one is going to watch two people with opposing views have a long deep conversation where they acknowledge nuance and agree on some things while disagreeing on others. They're going to get two people to scream at each other to appeal to the extremes on either side because that's where the money is.

Honestly curious here -- who do you think MSNBC is pandering too, then? They are shattering their own ratings records with all the non-stop Russia/Ukraine stuff, which is chalk full of IC folks appearing as guests over and over and over. 

There's obviously quite a sizable audience of liberals there.

Davnasty

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2019, 02:00:07 PM »
Cognitive dissonance? I find that can explain a fair number of things.

Also, anything on TV is pretty much meaningless in terms of reality. It's just entertainment. I think the vast majority of people care far less about the things that people on TV get so worked up about. So if you look to most of the media for signaling it's not necessarily going to reflect reality. It's always going to be more partisan, more divisive, and more bickering because that's what makes money. No one is going to watch two people with opposing views have a long deep conversation where they acknowledge nuance and agree on some things while disagreeing on others. They're going to get two people to scream at each other to appeal to the extremes on either side because that's where the money is.

Honestly curious here -- who do you think MSNBC is pandering too, then? They are shattering their own ratings records with all the non-stop Russia/Ukraine stuff, which is chalk full of IC folks appearing as guests over and over and over. 

There's obviously quite a sizable audience of liberals there.

Not necessarily. This is anecdotal and I really don't have a good explanation for it but my parents watch both Fox news and MSNBC and it seems they're generally disgusted by both of them. I wouldn't call them liberal and definitely not the type of liberal you're referring to.

Also, the actual numbers matter. With a quick search I'm seeing numbers between 1-2 million viewers for MSNBC, or .3-.6% of the US. Just because the numbers are rising doesn't tell us much about what all liberals think.

For the record, Alex Jones has 2 million weekly listeners. I don't take this to mean that conservatives and/or the right wing as a whole believe the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax.

*chock full :)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 02:03:26 PM by Davnasty »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2019, 02:36:05 PM »
That's a good question...

I would also mention a noisy but small group of authoritarian activist types that have pushed the overton window in the authoritarian direction.  Antifa, BLM(at least with regards to the Toronto Pride incident), those that deplatform, possibly others.  Groups that mandate inclusiveness(carefully defined) to a repressive level.  Maybe there's a connection, I don't know.  Obviously the subject is far different(Antifa and Intelligence are not friends) but the manifestation is similar.

Who pushed the Overton window first? Did Trump push it with his comments? The Proud Boys were founded in September 2016. Richard Spencer got some "Seig Heil" salutes at his DC gathering in November 2016.

This actually makes sense because one aspect of the violent right is to critique the left as being weak and ineffectual; Antifa responding to the alt-right, violent, groups is a direct contradiction of that critique.

(Groups that mandate inclusiveness? Now that's funny.)

It pre-dates Trump.  Although we do see some similar manifestations on the right. 

Yes, mandated inclusiveness.  Here's what happened with BLM in Toronto, according to wikipedia:

In June 2016, Black Lives Matter was selected by Pride Toronto as the honoured group in that year's Pride parade, during which they staged a sit-in to block the parade from moving forward for approximately half an hour.[189] They issued a number of demands for Pride to adjust its relationship with LGBTQ people of colour, including stable funding and a suitable venue for the established Blockorama event, improved diversity in the organization's staff and volunteer base, and that Toronto Police officers be banned from marching in the parade in uniform.[190] Pride executive director Mathieu Chantelois signed BLM's statement of demand, but later asserted that he had signed it only to end the sit-in and get the parade moving, and had not agreed to honour the demands.[191]

This is a kind of a weird example to use. 
- it didn't happen in the country under discussion (the United States)
- BLM didn't want 'mandated inclusiveness', they were protesting against including police officers
- The Pride organizers agreed to everything to stop the BLM protest, and then didn't follow through on the demands
- This has nothing to do with the intelligence community in Canada (or obviously, the US)

I said in my first post that this was a similar manifestation, not that it was directly related.  And sociopolitical influences don't stop at borders.

The mandated inclusiveness is exclusive in practice, because these activist leftist types have no interest whatsoever in including people they deem to be wrongthinkers, like police wearing uniforms at Toronto pride, for instance. (And deplatforming)

You might disagree but it's a pretty clear instance of authoritarian practice imo.

But the more I think about it, the more it's probably just #resisting Trump.  (In the context of the intelligence community).

I just don't follow your reasoning.  You were talking about 'mandated inclusiveness' and then gave an example of one group trying to force the exclusion of another group.  That's like . . . the opposite.
I don't know what to tell you.

Davnasty

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2019, 02:46:29 PM »
I just don't follow your reasoning.  You were talking about 'mandated inclusiveness' and then gave an example of one group trying to force the exclusion of another group.  That's like . . . the opposite.
I don't know what to tell you.

Pretty sure you guys are using two different definitions of mandate

GuitarStv

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2019, 05:28:20 PM »
I just don't follow your reasoning.  You were talking about 'mandated inclusiveness' and then gave an example of one group trying to force the exclusion of another group.  That's like . . . the opposite.
I don't know what to tell you.

Pretty sure you guys are using two different definitions of mandate

On a re-read, I think it's my own confusion over use of the term 'inclusiveness'.

Wrenchturner appears to be using 'mandated inclusiveness' to refer to exclusionary practices.  Then he gave an example of an BLM utterly failing to implement exclusion through strong-arm tactics . . . I guess to show how this isn't a real problem?  Still unclear.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2019, 07:35:50 PM »
On a re-read, I think it's my own confusion over use of the term 'inclusiveness'.

Wrenchturner appears to be using 'mandated inclusiveness' to refer to exclusionary practices.  Then he gave an example of an BLM utterly failing to implement exclusion through strong-arm tactics . . . I guess to show how this isn't a real problem?  Still unclear.
You know what, you're right.  BLM is not a good example of a group trying to create inclusion.  From what I've read since, it sounds like Pride Toronto made a similar error.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Since When Does the Left/Liberals Support the US Intelligence Community?
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2019, 09:16:27 PM »
Cognitive dissonance? I find that can explain a fair number of things.

Also, anything on TV is pretty much meaningless in terms of reality. It's just entertainment. I think the vast majority of people care far less about the things that people on TV get so worked up about. So if you look to most of the media for signaling it's not necessarily going to reflect reality. It's always going to be more partisan, more divisive, and more bickering because that's what makes money. No one is going to watch two people with opposing views have a long deep conversation where they acknowledge nuance and agree on some things while disagreeing on others. They're going to get two people to scream at each other to appeal to the extremes on either side because that's where the money is.

Honestly curious here -- who do you think MSNBC is pandering too, then? They are shattering their own ratings records with all the non-stop Russia/Ukraine stuff, which is chalk full of IC folks appearing as guests over and over and over. 

There's obviously quite a sizable audience of liberals there.

Not necessarily. This is anecdotal and I really don't have a good explanation for it but my parents watch both Fox news and MSNBC and it seems they're generally disgusted by both of them. I wouldn't call them liberal and definitely not the type of liberal you're referring to.

Also, the actual numbers matter. With a quick search I'm seeing numbers between 1-2 million viewers for MSNBC, or .3-.6% of the US. Just because the numbers are rising doesn't tell us much about what all liberals think.

For the record, Alex Jones has 2 million weekly listeners. I don't take this to mean that conservatives and/or the right wing as a whole believe the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax.

*chock full :)

If you add up all the ratings from Fox, MSNBC, CNN, etc. you're still only talking about a small fraction of the US. I'm sure a lot more people are watching (insert popular reality show here) than all of these 24-hour "news" channels. There's over a hundred million households in the US and 24-hour news channels are getting maybe 10 million viewers all together.

My in-laws watch Fox News every day and are very conservative while my parents watch MSNBC sometimes and are pretty liberal. Then again, both of those groups of people are in their 60s and 70s. Which, at least for Fox News is definitely their demographic based on the ads for walk-in bath tubs and supplemental Medicare insurance. Not sure what the demographic is for MSNBC, et al. but it's probably younger.